1 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: Before he declared he was going to be for independence, 2 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Franklin wanted to have a meeting with his son, William, 3 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: who's the royal governor of New Jersey by this point. 4 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: And Franklin goes and they meet in a manor house 5 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: halfway in between Philadelphia and where William was in New Jersey, 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: and they have a very long and tough night. And 7 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin tells William he's going to be on the 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: side of the revolution and that William should resign his governorship. 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: And William doesn't, And I think he was dismayed that 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: his son had not only become a royal governor and 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: a loyalist, but was loving the pers of power. And 12 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: it's a riff that never gets repaired. 13 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: In many ways, Benjamin Franklin was an unlikely revolutionary. Franklin 14 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: was someone who always tried to mend fences rather than 15 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: tear them down. Through his work as an experimental scientist, 16 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: a writer, and a businessman. He was always problem solving, 17 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 2: looking for the most practical solution. But his pension for 18 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: compromise was challenged during the Revolution when his adopted hometown 19 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: of Philadelphia became a hotbed of anti colonial fervor still, 20 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: Franklin was a man of his times, ready to meet 21 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: the moment. But what's surprising is how much of the 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: work he did on behalf of America was actually done abroad. 23 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 2: In this episode of On Benjamin Franklin, Walter Isaacson paints 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: the picture of Franklin the diplomat and how his genius 25 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: as a statesman may be one of his most underappreciated. 26 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: Let's talk about a bitcham Franklin and his early work 27 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 2: as a founding father. When does Franklin move from being 28 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 2: this civic minded businessman hanging out with the Leather Apron 29 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: Club to really diving into politics. 30 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: When he retires in his early forties and gets interested 31 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: in science, he also gets interested in politics in a 32 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: larger scale. He believes that we have to all work 33 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,839 Speaker 1: together in the various colonies to save off threats, and 34 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: so he takes that notion of civic associations applies it 35 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: on a more colonial level, helping fund George Washington and 36 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: others fighting the French and Indian War. And so Franklin 37 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: is trying to work out a system where instead of 38 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: just voluntary associations, we now have to tax ourselves we 39 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: now have to govern ourselves. He was a leader in 40 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: the Colonial Assembly in Pennsylvania and of the faction that 41 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: was trying to oppose the Penn family because the different 42 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: colonies had different ways of governance. Some were crown colonies 43 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: directly ruled by the king, but some were proprietors like 44 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: the Penn family, who had the right to govern Pennsylvania 45 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: to some extent. They had a charter, and it was 46 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: unclear whether they could tax the people in Pennsylvania and 47 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: refuse to pay taxes themselves, which is indeed what was happening, 48 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: And so that gets him involved in the things that 49 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: lead us to a revolution, whether it's the import duties, 50 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: the stamp, taxation without representation. But Franklin's first mission is 51 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: simply to loosen the power of the Penn family. 52 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: Franklin gets selected by the Assembly to represent Pennsylvania in 53 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: London as their agent to the Crown, and he's animated 54 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: by the challenge, but he's also excited by the energy 55 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: of this bustling city. 56 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: Although Philadelphia in the seventeen fifties was the largest city 57 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: in America, had only twenty three thousand inhabitants, it was 58 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: just a few dusty streets in a market street, whereas 59 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: London was thirty times the size, with a quarter of 60 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: a million inhabitants and growing really fast. London was the 61 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: largest city in Europe and second only to Beijing in 62 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: the world. But it was cramped, It was dirty, It 63 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: was filled with disease and prostitutes in clime. More importantly, 64 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 1: it was stratified into an upper class of titled aristocrats 65 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: and a lower class of impoverished workers. What Franklin does, 66 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: as he did in America, was gravitate to what was 67 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: becoming a burgeoning middle class, a middle class of tradesmen 68 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: and artisans. When he gets back to London for the 69 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: first time, he goes back to the print shop where 70 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: he worked as a young printer, and he buys beer 71 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: for everybody there, the fashionable aristocrats in London, there were 72 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: growing up a lot of clubs such as Whites and 73 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: Brooks and Boodles. Franklin didn't feel comfortable there, but there 74 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: was for the burgeoning new class of writers and journalists 75 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: and professionals and intellectuals. There were coffee shops which provided 76 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: newspapers and tables where you could sit all afternoon with 77 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: friends and discuss current events, and that's where Franklin gravitated, certainly, 78 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: both with his middle class and intellectual friends, but also 79 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: people cared about politics. Lark barklay Hume had created an 80 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: enlightenment mindset that you saw in London and also in Paris, 81 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: and not surprisingly those become the two cities Franklin loves 82 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: the most besides Philadelphia. Now there were those who were 83 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: more disposed to American rights, and Franklin becomes close to 84 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: a lot of them, especially the Whigs. But there are 85 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: those in the governing party who consider him dangerous, as 86 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: indeed he was to their control. 87 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: And so there's this class of people who are clearly 88 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,239 Speaker 2: suspicious of Ben Franklin. Does he have to be careful 89 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 2: about what he says or. 90 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: Does Franklin understood the new media age of his time 91 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: and how there could be scandals and people could write 92 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: scoreless things. And in the seventeen sixties he writes a 93 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: letter to his daughter and says, your slightest indiscretions will 94 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: be magnified into crimes in order to sensibly wound and 95 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: afflict me. In other words, he had become such a celebrity. 96 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: He knew that his enemies would be publishing stories about 97 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: his family as a way to take him down. 98 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 2: And that's even something that you might not realize today 99 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: if you think of Franklin as how famous he was 100 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: for his scientific experiments and famous as a founder, but 101 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 2: that if you're going to be that famous, you will 102 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,239 Speaker 2: also generate enemies. 103 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: Franklin tried very hard not to generate enemies. This was 104 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: a very passionate period that I'm leading up to a revolution, 105 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: of course, and whether it was the Penn family or 106 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: there was a family of Lee's up in Massachusetts, he 107 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: developed enemies of people who either were loyal to the 108 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: crown or were loyal to the proprietors. And he tended 109 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: his reputation very well. But when he did make enemies, 110 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: they were pretty strong enemies. 111 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: Now did he have revolutionary notions at that time. 112 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: Franklin was very much a believer in the beauty of 113 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: the British Empire. He was very loyal to the concept 114 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: of Americans and people in England all being part of 115 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: this great empire. He called it a noble vase, and 116 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: once it got broken, it wouldn't be put back together. 117 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: So as the colonial agent in London, his first mission 118 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: is trying to prevent a revolution. Near the end, he 119 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: comes up with the plan that the colonial assemblies are 120 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: just like Parliament. They're all subject to the king, but 121 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: they make their own taxes and do their own governance. 122 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: And it's sort of what we now have in the Commonwealth. 123 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: Had his plan succeeded, the US would be like Canada. 124 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: He got very close and had the Whig state and 125 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: power in England. He may have been able to work 126 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: out this Commonwealth relationship, but he gets humiliated by the ministers. 127 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: There describe a little bit how that humiliation came about. 128 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: At one point when he keeps presenting petitions to the ministers, 129 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: he gets embroiled in controversy over leaking some letters, which 130 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: he did. But the most important thing is he gets 131 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,239 Speaker 1: called before a hearing of Parliament in what's called the cockpit. 132 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: He's wearing this velvet coat and he gets prosecuted and 133 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: he doesn't say a word as they keep attacking him 134 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: and attacking him. And this is the beginning of his 135 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: realization that no, this is not going to work. And 136 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that years later, when he ends 137 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: up at the end of the revolution negotiating both the 138 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: alliance with France and then the peace treaty with England. 139 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: When he signs it, he puts that same coat back 140 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: on and he gusks why, and he says to give 141 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: it a little revenge because he remembers that day in 142 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: the cockpit. 143 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: So it feels like he's still learning as a diplomat 144 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: right now, still figuring out how to maneuver in this 145 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: new position. 146 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: Right One of Franklin's problems as an agent in England 147 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 1: is he was too accommodat and he tried too hard 148 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: to get a solution. He hasn't fervently fought the Stamp Act, 149 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: and when it gets back to America, there's a backlash, 150 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: so he has to scramble, and in a way that 151 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: pushes him towards the side of becoming more revolutionary because 152 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: he realizes that he's lost touch with the anti taxation, 153 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: anti British sentiments that had welled up in America. 154 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: But in a way he quickly finds his footing because 155 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: he actually prints one of the more incendiary pamphlets. 156 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the great spurs to revolution in early 157 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six was an anonymous pamphlet called Common Sense. 158 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: It turned out it was written by Thomas Paine, but 159 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: people didn't know that it was anonymous, and some people 160 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: thought that Franklin had written it. It's a huge success. 161 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: I think it'd sold more than one hundred thousand copies. 162 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: Even though Franklin wasn't the author, he had an indirect 163 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: hand in it because he was the one who had 164 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: helped bring Thomas Payne over from England as a cheeky 165 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 1: young hope to be printer and helped get Common Sense published. 166 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: So Franklin is bequeathing to a new generation that notion 167 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: of being a pamphleteer being published, and that helps bring 168 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: us closer to revolution. 169 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 2: More on that right, after a quick break, let's talk 170 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: about the revolution. When the first shots were fired in 171 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: April seventeen seventy five, Benjamin Franklin wasn't back from London yet. 172 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: He arrives just a few weeks later. What's this scene like. 173 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: In seventeen seventy five, about half the people in the 174 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: colonies built loyal to the crown, in about half were 175 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: starting to well up with a sense that we were 176 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: going to have a revolution. When he finally returns to Philadelphia, 177 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: he's greeted by cheering throngs, but there's a question will 178 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: he really cast his lot on the side of revolution. 179 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 2: Did the fact that Franklin's son was a real governor 180 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: and that he broke with him over independence, did that 181 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 2: lend Franklin more credibility among the revolutionaries or did it 182 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: end up casting suspicion on him that he might still 183 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: have royal inclinations. 184 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Franklin's rivals and enemies treated him with some suspicion. 185 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: But one thing that happens is George Washington ends up 186 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: finally winning in New Jersey and William is arrested, and 187 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: it becomes a question whether Benjamin Franklin will earne urge 188 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: that his son be parolled or whatever. And no, he doesn't. 189 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: He lets his son be arrested and imprisoned in Connecticut. 190 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: And I think it's because Benjamin Franklin wanted to make 191 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: it clear he didn't have divided loyalties. His new loyalties 192 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: were with the new country and not with his son, 193 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: the royal governor. 194 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: And so in seventeen seventy six, as a full fledged revolutionary, 195 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: Benjamin Franklin joins the Continental Congress. 196 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that happens is the Continental Congress 197 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: decides if we're going to have a revolution for independence, 198 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: we have to write a declaration explaining why we're doing this. 199 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: And so the Continental Congress appoints a committee may have 200 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: been the last time Congress appointed a great committee. But 201 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: on it are Benjamin Franklin, of course, Thomas Jefferson, and 202 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: John Adams. And Jefferson gets to write the first draft, 203 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: even though he's like really young, I think thirty one 204 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: or so, because he's the best writer, he's more passionate, 205 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: and he sends it to Franklin for editing, and it's 206 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: a wonderful letter, he writes. They're all living in Philadelphia 207 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: with the Congress's meeting. He said, with the good doctor 208 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: Franklin and all of his wisdom, look over this document 209 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: and see what improvements it can make. And it's like 210 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: people are really nice to editors back then. And you 211 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: see one of the most amazing documents in American history. 212 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: It's not just the declaration, but the first draft of 213 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: the declaration that's in the Library of Congress. And you 214 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: look at the most famous, most brilliant sentence ever written 215 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: by human hand, the one that begins, we hold these truths, 216 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: And there's Jefferson's first draft, we hold these truths to 217 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: be sacred. And Franklin, with the dark black backslashes a 218 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: printer he uses to cross something out, takes it out 219 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: and writes self evident, and he explains we're trying to 220 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: create a new type of nation in which our rights 221 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: come not from the dictates of religion, but from rationality 222 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: and reason. And the sentence goes on, and there's John 223 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: Adams's handwriting when they say endowed by their creator with 224 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: certain inalienable rights. So just in the writing of one 225 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: half of one sentence, you can see our founders doing 226 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: this balance between the role of divine providence and the 227 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: role of rationality and reason in securing our rights as 228 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: individuals and our governance as a nation. 229 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: I feel you can also see there all of what 230 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: you've already discussed about Franklin's inclination towards collaboration and compromise 231 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: happening around that document. 232 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: Right. What Franklin realizes is that they're balances you have 233 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: to put in, And even in that part of a sentence, 234 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: you have a balance. It's not all divine right gives 235 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: us this, and it's not all just pure rationality. There's 236 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: a certain balance that we strike. When we're figuring out 237 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: our role as a nation. 238 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: Let's talk about self evident because I want to make 239 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: sure we don't gloss over that. The importance of self evident, right, 240 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: What was the significance of the phrase. 241 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: When Jefferson writes we hold these truths to be sacred, 242 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: and then Franklin edits it to be self evident. He's 243 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: partly talking about the role of rationality, but he also 244 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: got that phrase from his close friend David Hume, the 245 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: world's greatest philosopher at the time. Franklin actually stayed at 246 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: the home of David Hume. You know, he met Adam Smith. 247 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: He read The Wealth of Nations before it was published. 248 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: So Franklin has soaked all this up. And David Hume 249 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: had come up with this idea that there were certain 250 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: truths that were just self evident. 251 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: And the issue with sacred was I mean, I don't 252 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: know how much she explicated this then or leader, but 253 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: would the issue with sacred be that anyone could make 254 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: a claim on secred if it had a religious tinge 255 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 2: to it. 256 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: Most governments up until that point derive their authority from 257 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: an appeal to divinity. The divine right of kings, being 258 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: the most famous example, and the grace of God explained 259 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: where the power came from. There was something totally new 260 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: that was beginning with the Declaration and culminates with the Constitution, 261 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: which is, no, the power is not divinely given. It's 262 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: something that comes from we the people. And I think 263 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: Franklin was saying, we don't want to premise our basic 264 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: beliefs that all men have created equal, they're endowed with 265 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: certain inalienable rights. We don't want to premise this on 266 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: coming from theology. No, it comes from certain evident truth. 267 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: And then we get this moment, this most famous moment 268 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 2: of John Hancock saying there must be no pulling in 269 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: different ways. 270 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: When they're signing the declaration. John Hancock of course does 271 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: it with the famous flourish and he says, we must 272 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 1: not all go our separate ways. We have to hang together. 273 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: And Franklin, that's the theme of his life, that we 274 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: have to all intertwine, we have to all hold hands, 275 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: and he says a famous funny line, which is, yes, 276 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: we all must hang together, or surely we'll all hang separately. 277 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: And so this notion of working collegially and in tandem 278 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: to assert our rights that begins with the Declaration then 279 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: culminates with the Constitution. 280 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: There was one smaller moment that just really struck me 281 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: in the way that Franklin shows up and influences so 282 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: many different aspects of American life. And it's that don't 283 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 2: tread on Me flag that he also happens to be 284 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: the person who saw that flag and brought it in 285 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: to be more official flag of the revolution. 286 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was part of Franklin's genius of sort of 287 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: knowing how to visually convey information, How a Join or 288 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: Die cartoon of a snake being cut up, how these 289 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: visual things can have an impact. 290 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: He loved a snake. He's got the snake in Join 291 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 2: or Die. There's the don't tread on Me snake, and 292 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: he has all philosophy about why the snake is the 293 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 2: right symbol. It doesn't strike first. 294 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: But when it strikes, it strikes, yes, right exactly. Another 295 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: snake that's interesting that we have to deal with today 296 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: is one of Franklin's sort of friends but occasional opponents, 297 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: the guy named Albert Gary, who didn't really believe in 298 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: a pure democracy. He felt that the rabble shouldn't be 299 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: allowed to rule too much. And among other things, that 300 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: he creates as his congressional district that looks like a snake, 301 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: and it gets called a gary Man. Nowadays we pronounced 302 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: it Jerry Mander based on Albert Gary doing that snake 303 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: like district, and Franklin thought that was a bit appalling, 304 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: one snake that he didn't care for. 305 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: Ye, So after the Declaration of Independence, I feel like 306 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: he could have hung up his spurs. He's in his 307 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: seventies by this point. He keeps taking on assignments to 308 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: go places and do things, no matter the danger. 309 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: I mean, he's hitting seventy, which is back then considered 310 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: retirement age. Yeah. But they give him another mission, which 311 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: is we just declared a revolution and we needed the munitions, 312 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: we needed the navy, and so they send Franklin off 313 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: to France to try to form an alliance in which 314 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: the French would come in and outside on the revolution. Yeah. 315 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: You describe it as the most dangerous, complex and fascinating 316 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: of all of his public missions. 317 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: It's a very treacherous voyage, especially during wartime. But Franklin 318 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: both out of a sense of duty, but also I 319 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: think as a personal sense of venture, wanting to be relevant. 320 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: He's there sailing across the ocean, pushing himself in a 321 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,360 Speaker 1: somewhat courageous way, when he could have been sitting back 322 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: at home in his new house that he had built 323 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. 324 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: After the break, we dive into Franklin's adventures in France 325 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: and how the savvy diplomat charmed the nation in between 326 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: playing chess with his mistresses. On December third, seventeen seventy six, 327 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 2: Ben Franklin arrives in France with an enormous diplomatic challenge 328 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 2: ahead of him. He's come to woo the French to 329 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 2: get them to support the American side, because, like the 330 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: other founding fathers, he knows that without France's help, the 331 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: revolutionaries have no chance of winning the war. 332 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: It is very difficult to get France in on our 333 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 1: side in the revolution. I mean to put it mildly. 334 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: The King of France wasn't so much in favor of 335 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: revolutions against royal rule. But France has its own interests, 336 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: and Franklin is brilliant at both playing to the national 337 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: interests of France and the national ideals. So he gets 338 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: to France and he plays this balance of power game, 339 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: saying France and Spain. The Bourbon pac Nations, along with 340 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: the Netherlands, have for more than four hundred years been 341 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: fighting off and on with England, and if they come 342 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: in with us on our side in the revolution is 343 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: going to help the balance of power. It will help 344 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: them keep the colonies like in the Caribbean, etc. But 345 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: he also plays an idealistic game when he gets there. 346 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: He has a printing press and he prints the documents 347 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: coming out of America, like the Declaration of Independence or 348 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: the rights of Virginia. And he realizes that in France 349 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: is welling up this notion of liberty, equality for and 350 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: he wants to play to that as well. 351 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: But as we mentioned in an earlier episode, when Benjamin 352 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: Franklin gets to France, he's a bit of a rock star. 353 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: He's older and widowed by now, but he's a celebrity. 354 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 2: Crowds are waiting at the docks to catch a glimpse 355 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: of the guy who invented the lightning rod. He's carried 356 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: to the steps of the Academy of Sciences in Paris 357 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: to hug Voltaire, and he's dressed in a ridiculous fashion 358 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: with a specific purpose in mind. 359 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: When Franklin gets to France. He continues to portray himself 360 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: in ways that'll be useful, and he knows that the 361 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: French of red Rousseau perhaps wants to do often, and 362 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: they worship the backwoods philosopher as a natural man. And 363 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: so Franklin gets to France and he wears instead of 364 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: a wig, he wears this backwoods fur cap. And so 365 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: soon in Paris the women are wearing cafus a la Franklin. 366 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: I mean, their hair do is done as if it's 367 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: a wool cap. And he just totally wins over the 368 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: French people, which he realizes, besides playing to his vanity, 369 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: helps him win over the French government, the French foreign 370 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: minis and others. They know how popular America and Franklin is. 371 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 2: Well, that's I mean, it's such a masterful pr move 372 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 2: for him to portray himself as this sort of davy 373 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: Crockett who's actually never been out on the frontier fighting 374 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: the fight. 375 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, Franklin was not a backwoods natural wilderness philosopher. He 376 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: had lived in the heart of Boston. He had lived 377 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: on Market Street, and he had lived on Craven Street 378 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: in London. He had barely been to the backwoods on 379 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: one trip to Canada, where he's representing the Pennsylvania Assembly 380 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: trying to figure out its defenses, he buys a fur 381 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: cap and it certainly wins the French over. 382 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: I want to talk about his life outside out of Paris, 383 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: or in the suburbs of Paris. It's very striking. 384 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Posse, which is a suburb of Paris. It's 385 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: a nice manor house. It's used as the American colonial 386 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: or then the United States out posts there. So John 387 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: Adams is there for a while when he's an agent. 388 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: Jefferson of course comes over at some point, but it's 389 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: weirdly a nest of spies. There's a guy Edward Bancroft 390 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: who's working there who's a total spy on Franklin and 391 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: reading his letters. But Franklin says, I've learned that even 392 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: if my valet is a spy, to act the same way, 393 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 1: because I'll just do things that I don't care if 394 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: they get exposed, which wasn't totally good because Bancroft was 395 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: effective at knowing what ships were going over. But Franklin 396 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: just leads this fun life in Posse. 397 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 2: He's a man who rejects pretension in all ways. When 398 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 2: he's younger and throughout his life he represents the rejection 399 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: of pretension, but also it seems like he likes a 400 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: little bit of the high life. 401 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it is true that all people who 402 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: reject pretension so don't really mind having a good bottle 403 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: of wine now and then, and certainly he was in 404 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: that category. He loved Madeira, and yes he never puts 405 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: on royal airs, but he does live pretty well, and 406 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: of course he loves the adulation. He has two what 407 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: he calls mistresses there and at this point, as I say, 408 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: he's in his seventies, so they're not purely romantic, but 409 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: Madame Brionn, Madame Haviltius, he's flirting with, he's having salons, 410 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: he has them over so he loves leading the good 411 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: life in Paris and even playing chess while he's in 412 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: the bathtub with one of his mistresses. But he also 413 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: makes fun about how his relationship won't get too far 414 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,239 Speaker 1: even though he dreams of it. 415 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: That type of thing, and describe this environment as a 416 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 2: state that he's living on. 417 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: John Adams is also there, and they're a bit like 418 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: oil and water. Franklin said he learned French by writing 419 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: bagtelles to his French girlfriends. Was John Adams learned French 420 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: by memorizing funeral orations? And Adams think that Franklin's having 421 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: too much fun with Madam Hillvisius and Madame Briawe and others. 422 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a little bit of pearl clutching by John 423 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 2: Adams when he arrives onto the scene. 424 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: Oh. John Adams's rivalry with Franklin is the stuff of law. 425 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: He's always very jealous. John Adams thought that he had 426 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: written the Founding Document of America, which was a resolution 427 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: earlier in seventeen seventy six to break away the assemblies 428 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:53,479 Speaker 1: from Parliament you power, and he's upset that Jefferson and 429 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: then Franklin are given KREDI says, everybody's going to think 430 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: it's just Franklin who's always doing the things. But he 431 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: also comes to be a grudging admirer of Franklin. 432 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: And how does Franklin mix this sort of social and 433 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: political like it seems like he's having fun, but there's 434 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: a method to it. 435 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that, especially his appearance with Voltaire when 436 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 1: they hug on the steps of the Academy, or his 437 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: way of being part of the salons, both of Paris 438 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: and in Posse. He realizes, as others after him did, 439 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: that having this Rakish cachet and a bit of celebrity 440 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: gives him a certain power. He can't be ignored or 441 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: declared persona non grado the way they did with John Adams. 442 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: And is the rivalry between Adams and Franklin in this time? 443 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: I mean, is there a way in which they're driving 444 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: each other like they have different outlooks to a certain 445 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: extent on how this diplomacy should be taking place. Adams 446 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 2: doesn't always like how Franklin's doing it. But is it 447 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: the combination of them that makes it happen, or or 448 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: is Adam's kind of impediment to Franklin's plans? 449 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: Early on, before the revolution was in full force, Adams 450 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: and Franklin traveled together to go meet the commander of 451 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: the British forces on Staten Island. And it's that scene 452 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: where they have to share a bedroom and they argue 453 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: about the common cold and the freshness of air. But 454 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: they send Adams along because they think Franklin, just by 455 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: his nature, is to accommodating. You send him there, you'll 456 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: find some deal to be made. Whereas Adams is not 457 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: a deal maker, and that continues all the way through 458 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: the Great because Adams feels Franklin's too accommodating to the French. 459 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: He gives away too much, he wants to be liked 460 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: too much, and this is why the French like Franklin. 461 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: They don't like Adams, but it's useful for them to 462 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: be there. And then the next round is when they 463 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: have to negotiate the treaty that ends the war, the 464 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: treaty with England, and once again Adams it's a hard 465 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: liner and Franklin's more willing to make a deal. So 466 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: I guess that combination works well. And how is the 467 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: communication happening? 468 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: I mean, these days, no diplomat is operating anywhere in 469 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: the world without constant communication with the people who have 470 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: dispatched that diplomat there. But it takes a month to 471 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: even get there. The letters are going to be slow. 472 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: How much is Franklin freelancing and he can do whatever 473 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: he wants versus he's tethered to the desires of the 474 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: Continental Congress. 475 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: That's why diplomacy was so much more important back then, 476 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: because you couldn't have detailed instructions being cabled to you 477 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: every hour, you had to wait a month or so. 478 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: And so when it comes to doing both the Treaty 479 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: of Alliance with France and then the treaty that ends 480 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: in war with Britain, Franklin has quite a bit of leeway. 481 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: And there are some disputes later where he may have 482 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: conceded too much on fishing rights or something. But it 483 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: was a time when diplomats had to figure out for themselves, 484 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: being genius about how to get things done. 485 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: So how does Franklin ultimately sway the French to join 486 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: the war and pull off this. 487 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 1: Feet At first Verjeon, who is a French foreign minister, 488 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: and certainly the king resists it. They want to help 489 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: America but not have to take blame for it. But 490 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: then Franklin was more successful than he could have imagined, 491 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: getting a full fledged treaty of alliance, and then even 492 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: people like Lafayette being sent over, who becomes an indispensable commander. 493 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 1: In addition to getting Lafayette to come over, of course, 494 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: there's the famous John Paul Jones who becomes supplied by 495 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: France and his ship is called the bon Homme Richard, 496 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: and that's because it's named after Poor Richard of Poor 497 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: Richard's Almanac. I think that you rarely have seen in 498 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: history a blending of idealism and realism that are twined 499 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: together the way Franklin did, in other words, with his 500 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: public diplomacy and public persona winning over the hearts and 501 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: minds of a French people who believed in liberty and 502 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: equality and fraternity. There have been other great diplomatic triumphs, 503 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: but not ones that depended equally on both realism and idealism. 504 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 2: So why was obtaining this French alliance so crucial? Without 505 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: France we could not have won the revolution. They supply 506 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: most of the munitions, the arms, the gunpowder, and then 507 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: more importantly it's their navy which has blockaded the coast, 508 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: so that you know, when Washington finally wins a few victories, 509 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: they can't be reinforced. So by getting France in on 510 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: our side, it basically made it possible for the United States. 511 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: Says it was then calling itself to triumph militarily rather 512 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: than come to a stalemate. But it does feel like 513 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: there are many accounts of the Revolution and many accounts 514 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: of the founding fathers, and Franklin can end up being 515 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: a little bit pushed aside as this sort of compromiser maybe, 516 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 2: or as the person on the sidelines who wasn't quite 517 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: the action man that some of these other founders were. 518 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: Franklin played the role of bringing people together, not being 519 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: the point person, not being Samuel Adams or being the 520 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: most aggressive person. But that role of pulling people together 521 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: was essential. Is it going to create a democracy. It's 522 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: not going to be driven by passionate leaders. It's going 523 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: to be we the people trying to pull things together. 524 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: When it comes to trying to create the treaty they'll 525 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: end the war. There's this question about whether it's going 526 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 2: to be between the three nations or one emerging nation 527 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: United States, France and England, or it's going to be 528 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: direct between the US and England. And that feels like 529 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: another place where Franklin and Adams come into conflicts. And 530 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 2: there's a question about Franklin being too accommodating. 531 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: One of the agreements the United States had made with 532 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: France and part of the Treaty of Alliance, was that 533 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: it would not negotiate a totally separate peace with England 534 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: without keeping France both informed and consulted. And Franklin is 535 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: very good at keeping the French foreign minister in the 536 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: loop on all the negotiations. Initially this is Verjon, the 537 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: French foreign Minister, but at a certain point Franklin floats 538 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: some ideas with his English friends. They come to an 539 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 1: agreement of what the framework of a deal for peace 540 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: would look like, and he hasn't fully consulted Verjon. So 541 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: when the deal happens, the French are upset, the foreign 542 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 1: minister's upset, and Franklin writes the most soothing diplomatic letter 543 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: blaming it on himself, saying, yes, I'm so sorry, but 544 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: our love for France and our gratitude whatever. And by 545 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: the end of that discussion he has a temerity to 546 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: ask for another loan from France, but he's been able 547 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: to smooth it over with the French Foreign minister and 548 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:19,959 Speaker 1: the King. 549 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: It almost feels like by that point he's again just 550 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 2: deploying this public persona, both his ability to write, obviously, 551 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: but also it's just you can't be mad at Franklin 552 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: very long. He always seems to have a plan that 553 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 2: he thinks can solve the dispute. 554 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin was the only one of the founders who 555 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: is involved in all four of the great founding documents 556 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: of America, the Declaration, the Treaty of Alliance with France, 557 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: the Treaty that ends the war with Great Britain, and 558 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: then the Constitution. Even though he's not seen as a 559 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: George Washington, as indispensable or passionate the way Jefferson was, 560 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: he was both the glue that held people together and 561 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: the thread that tied our progress. 562 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 2: In the final episode, we discussed ben Franklin's legacy, the 563 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 2: scientific trick he used to keep the Constitutional Convention on track, 564 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 2: and we hear about his personal ledger and the ways 565 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: he tried to write his wrongs. 566 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: Franklin always was in favor of compromise, but the big 567 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: moral challenge in life is knowing when to compromise and 568 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: when to stand true to principle. And he realizes that 569 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: they shouldn't have compromised on the issue of slave. 570 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: That's next week on Benjamin Franklin. This show is based 571 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: on the writing and research of Walter Isaacson. So stood 572 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: by me Evan Ratliffe, produced, mixed and sound designed by 573 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 2: Anna Rubinova. Adam Bozarth is our consulting producer. Lizzie Jacobs 574 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 2: is our editor. Social media by Dara Potts. The show 575 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: was engineered at CDM Sound Studios from iHeart Podcast. The 576 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 2: executive producers are Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry. For Kalledyscope, 577 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 2: it was executive produced by Mangeshtigaure with an assist from 578 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 2: Oz Walishan Kostaslinos and Kate Osbourne. Special thanks to Amanda Urban, 579 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 2: Bob Pittman, Connell Burn, Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, Kerry Lieberman, 580 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: Nathan Otowski. 581 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: And Ali Gavitt. 582 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 2: And if you like podcasts about inventions what they mean 583 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 2: for humanity, check out my other show, shell Game, about 584 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,399 Speaker 2: how it created an AI clone and said it loose 585 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: on the world. It's a shell Game dot co. And 586 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 2: for more shows from Kaleidoscope, be sure to visit Kaleidoscope 587 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 2: dot NYC. Thanks so much for listening.