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Speaker 1: Mute. If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military mails and

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Speaker 1: straight talk with the guys in the community. Hello again, everyone,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Software Radio, Software Radio one time on Target.

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Speaker 1: I am your host this afternoon, Steve Balustralia joining us.

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Speaker 1: We have a couple of very special guests with us today.

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Speaker 1: We have John Pomfred and we have Fred Hart. And

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Speaker 1: these guys were well. John wrote a book that's getting

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Speaker 1: ready to come out later on this month. I believe

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Speaker 1: it's October, but we'll confirm that in a minute, and

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Speaker 1: it's called for Warsaw with Love, Polish fives, the CIA

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Speaker 1: and the Forging of an Unlikely Alliance. This book we

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Speaker 1: were able to get our hands on advanced copy and

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Speaker 1: when it comes out, and highly recommend everyone invest in this.

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Speaker 1: This is really good. It was a page turner. I

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Speaker 1: actually had to read it a couple of times to

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Speaker 1: make sure I was believing when I was reading there,

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Speaker 1: because it was really good. But before we get into

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Speaker 1: all that, we want to welcome our guests of the podcast. John, Fred,

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Speaker 1: thanks for taking the time with us this afternoon. Great

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Speaker 1: to be here, Yeah, good to be here see. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and Fred and I have a mutual friend who introduced

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Speaker 1: us to Brandon and we we could probably talk for

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Speaker 1: days on you. We probably there. We'll try to keep

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Speaker 1: those for Yeah. Yeah, ste and I were on the

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Speaker 1: same eight team down in Panama way back and about

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Speaker 1: the time you guys were in Kuwait. So yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: but John, first off, um, you know, how did you

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Speaker 1: come about this story? And you know what made you

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Speaker 1: decide to write about this? Uh? First, Steve, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for having me, and it's great to see Fred again.

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Speaker 1: So I was based in Eastern Europe for the Washington

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Speaker 1: Post in the early nineties, and basically most of my

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Speaker 1: duty was hanging out in Sarajevo trying not to get

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Speaker 1: hit by a sniper. Um because boss name was the

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Speaker 1: hottest story and the destruction of s ex Yugoslavia was

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Speaker 1: the hottest story. But the Post still had it's bureau

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Speaker 1: based in Warsaw basically because you know, back in the day,

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Speaker 1: Poland was the center of Eastern European UM import and

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Speaker 1: so I had a house in Warsaw and um in

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Speaker 1: ninety four, I started to pick up these rumors from

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Speaker 1: diplomats said, Hey, the Polish intelligence agency is a really

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Speaker 1: great intelligence agency, and they actually did something for your country.

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Speaker 1: At one point of French diplomat pointed his finger at

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Speaker 1: my chest, saying, we the Polish did something for your

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Speaker 1: country and you really should report about it. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what it was, and so I just began

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Speaker 1: to scratch a little bit and interview people who had

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Speaker 1: worked in Polish engineering companies in Iraq. Because the polls

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Speaker 1: were during the socialist times, they had a lot of

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Speaker 1: businesses in the Middle East. And I interviewed twelve managers

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Speaker 1: of Polish um construction companies, and there was the thirteenth

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Speaker 1: and I finally got to the thirteenth and the guy said, well,

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Speaker 1: we had this wacky guy named Eugenieish who told this

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Speaker 1: crazy story about driving some Americans out of Iraq, but

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Speaker 1: we never believe them and use in that anyway. And

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Speaker 1: and then I found Eugenish and Eugenias told me that

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Speaker 1: very wacky story and I basically typed it up and

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Speaker 1: wrote out a long letter literally because back in the

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Speaker 1: day we didn't have email, and I taxed it to

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Speaker 1: the spokesman's office of the m Polish Ministry of Internal Affairs.

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Speaker 1: Their up their spy agency, and literally within an hour,

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Speaker 1: I've been summoned to the spy agency to meet grobusof Champinski,

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Speaker 1: who was at the time the director of the spy agency,

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Speaker 1: who was the six three presents with sharp you know,

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Speaker 1: very very sharp blue eyes and a pencil than mustache.

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Speaker 1: And there I was sitting in his at his desk

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Speaker 1: in the Stalinist you know, former Soviet Um Secret Service

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Speaker 1: or secret secret secret Service. And that was the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the story. You know, it's funny because you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up we all here the you know, the old

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Speaker 1: ethnic jokes about the Polish. And then uh, later on

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Speaker 1: in my career, during you know, my Special Forces career,

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Speaker 1: I worked with some guys from the agency and I

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Speaker 1: was just shooting the breeze with one guy one night.

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Speaker 1: We were waiting to do something and I asked him.

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Speaker 1: I was like, who do you guys think some of

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Speaker 1: the best intels you know people are in the world,

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Speaker 1: and he said, straight off Poles and he goes, those

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Speaker 1: guys are absolutely probably number one in tradecraft. I mean

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Speaker 1: they were very good at it during the Cold War

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Speaker 1: where they robbed us blind. And that The story begins

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Speaker 1: with Marion Zaharsky, who is this police auto basically machine

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Speaker 1: tools salesman based in l A. And then he's Suborn,

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Speaker 1: a guy worked for huge aircraft and he stole all

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Speaker 1: the early iterations of UM of the anti radar capability

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Speaker 1: of the United States, I mean, and it just got

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Speaker 1: worse from that, I know in reading the book, and

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Speaker 1: thank you for sending that to me, because like I said,

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Speaker 1: it was I mean, I've read I've read it a

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Speaker 1: couple of times, and you know, he was, like he

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Speaker 1: was is not a career spy. He was just kind

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Speaker 1: of thrust into it. He was he was a natural

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Speaker 1: at it, Yeah, he was. And then he became he

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Speaker 1: was a natural. He did really UM again. And then

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Speaker 1: he gets sentenced to life in prison in eighty one,

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Speaker 1: and then he's exchanged across the Bridge of Spies in

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Speaker 1: eighty four, and the guy who handled the exchange for

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Speaker 1: the agency officer named John Palavitch basically said, you know,

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Speaker 1: if we ever you know, have rab pro schmon with

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Speaker 1: this country, I want to work with the likes of

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Speaker 1: Marion Zaharsky. And then Palavitch was at the forefront of

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Speaker 1: convincing the agency to work with the polls. Once in

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Speaker 1: nineteen nine happened in the Berlin Wall fell down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that part was amazing. And then in the book,

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Speaker 1: you know when they're bringing him back to Poland, he's

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Speaker 1: sitting on the plane and as a pavileg that he

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Speaker 1: was sitting across from staring at him the whole time

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Speaker 1: and never said a word because he was ordered not

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Speaker 1: to talk to him. But unless unless he decided to

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Speaker 1: effect at the last minute. That was I mean, the

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Speaker 1: book is so good, and you know, it's amazing the polls,

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Speaker 1: even in the midst of the Cold War. You know,

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Speaker 1: some of their dedicated spikes I guess you could say,

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Speaker 1: or Intel people they wanted to become friends with the

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Speaker 1: United States. Yeah, very much so. I mean the case

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Speaker 1: of Colonel Richard Well then Brigadier General Richard Kuklinski was

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Speaker 1: probably one of the agency's best sources about Warsaw pac defenses.

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Speaker 1: In Warsaw Pact planning was a long time asset of

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Speaker 1: the Central Intelligence Agency, so much so that when the

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Speaker 1: Berlin Wall came down, the agency was really important at

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Speaker 1: advocating on his behalf in Poland to get his first

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Speaker 1: his sentence of death and then his twenty five year

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Speaker 1: sentence to jail expanded so that he could return to

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Speaker 1: his country, which he ultimately did in Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: funny because because of their history, I mean, I never

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Speaker 1: really thought the polls were going to be that type

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Speaker 1: of the Russians, because I mean, you know, if there's

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Speaker 1: anyone they fear more than the Germans, it's the Russian.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you had a great quote in there. I've

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Speaker 1: never seen it before from Stalin about Polish communists and

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Speaker 1: he said they were only read on the outside. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was perfect and it fits right into the book. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: They some of the I mean, the the agency and

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Speaker 1: also the US military had a lot of sources in

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Speaker 1: Poland throughout the Cold War. And you know, so take

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Speaker 1: us up to you know, where they invade Kuwait because

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Speaker 1: this is um you know, the U. S starts obviously

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Speaker 1: thawing our relations with the Polish and then uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to give too much of the

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Speaker 1: book away, but this was really fascinated by all this,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, with the stuff in Kuwait, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe that they were the guys who got our

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Speaker 1: people up. Yeah. So I mean, uh, I'll start in

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Speaker 1: March when John Palavits, this officer of whom you've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: basically pushes Um, the deputy director of Operations for Eastern

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Speaker 1: Europe Soviet Union, to reach out to the polls. And

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Speaker 1: there's a debate about where they should do the outreach,

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Speaker 1: and somebody suggested Rome, but the Polish embassy in Rome

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Speaker 1: was on a little alley and Italian counterintelligence really monitored them,

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Speaker 1: so they couldn't do it there. Somebody else mentioned perhaps Switzerland,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe the United States. They said no, and they

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Speaker 1: basically centered they decided that that Portugal was was the

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Speaker 1: place to do it because Portuguese counterintelligence was kind of

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Speaker 1: known to be relatively kind of sleepy, they didn't monitor

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Speaker 1: these things closely. So Palavitz goes to the Itali the

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Speaker 1: Polish embassy in in in in Lisbon, and walks through

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Speaker 1: the front door and meets um a Polish spy there

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Speaker 1: named Tomashevsky, and basically confronts him in his office, saying,

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Speaker 1: I am a officer for the CIA. We want to

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Speaker 1: have a direct relationship with your intelligence agent. And Tolmachevski

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Speaker 1: is functioning in in in Portugal with the hat of

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Speaker 1: a consul or consular official and he's like, you're lying.

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Speaker 1: I'm not in the service. You know, the walls are listening.

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Speaker 1: How can you be doing this? It's so unprofessional. And

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Speaker 1: play just said, hey, look here's my here's my I

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Speaker 1: D here's my passport, here's my telephone number. Xerox them

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Speaker 1: and get back to me if you ever want to

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Speaker 1: have a relationship. So Tomaschewski zerox is that sends it

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Speaker 1: back to Poland and Warsaw goes, oh my god, this

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Speaker 1: we might have blown our chance. Call that guy back

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Speaker 1: up and get him to come back to Portugal. So

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Speaker 1: the CIA sends a small delegation of several officers back

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Speaker 1: to Portugal and they begin to have, you know, talks,

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Speaker 1: and the talks proceed very well, and there's actually we

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Speaker 1: actually begin training their officers. We we start to train

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Speaker 1: their special forces. And then in September UM, right after

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Speaker 1: Saddam invaded Kuwait, we have a problem. And this is

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Speaker 1: where Officer uh Fred Hart is brought into the story

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Speaker 1: because Saddam has invaded Kuwait in August and we have

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Speaker 1: these men based who are now had been brought to

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Speaker 1: Baghdad and need to get out, one of whom whom

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Speaker 1: actually knows the whole in the way of the United

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Speaker 1: States is planning on countering Saddam's invasion because he'd war

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Speaker 1: game the damn thing for Norman Schwartzkoff in Florida, and

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Speaker 1: we then the United States government then talks to a

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Speaker 1: variety of governments, the Brits, the French, the Russians, and

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Speaker 1: everyone is really busy getting their people out, so they

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Speaker 1: don't have time to help us. So the Americans then

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Speaker 1: centered on the polls and there's a meeting in a

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Speaker 1: park in Poland by the CIA station chief in Warsaw

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Speaker 1: with the Polish representatives to say, hey, can you do

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Speaker 1: this for us? And the poll say yes. Yeah. That

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Speaker 1: that part was you know, I had never heard about

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Speaker 1: this before, and I was shocked that at that time,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was still the Coal War, things were thawing,

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Speaker 1: but the fact that they agreed to do this, I

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Speaker 1: thought was huge. And this is where Fred comes in,

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Speaker 1: you know, And it was funny because, uh, talking with

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Speaker 1: our mutual friends Stu Bradon Fred, you know, he was

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Speaker 1: like when we were talking about this early in August,

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Speaker 1: you know, he said, hey, you know they're saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: Americans never get left behind. Americans get left behind a lot,

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Speaker 1: and he was. He asked me, He's like, do you

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Speaker 1: know Fred Hart? And I said, no, I don't, and

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Speaker 1: he said Fred got left behind in Kuwait and he

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Speaker 1: his story needs to get told. So at that point

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Speaker 1: he introduced us all and this is how we got together. Fred.

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Speaker 1: I want you to pick up your story living in

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Speaker 1: Kuwait when Saddam you know, uh in vain, Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, basically I had I had just

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Speaker 1: branch transferred from being an infantry officer to a ordinance

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Speaker 1: officer because the infantry was gonna send me out the

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Speaker 1: National Training Center and I want to go there. But anyways,

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Speaker 1: uh so, uh they say, there's just this quiet little

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Speaker 1: corner of the world called Kawait you can go to.

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Speaker 1: You can take your family, it's good duty. It's out

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Speaker 1: of the embassy and and so forth. And so I

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Speaker 1: PCs over there and in August of eighty nine arrived

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Speaker 1: on to August eighty nine, a year two to the

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Speaker 1: date of the invasion, and basically, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: a pretty cushy assignment. And you know, no, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know how the uh the Arab nations are,

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Speaker 1: They're not. They're not very high speed about getting anything done.

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Speaker 1: But when I got there and see the attack on

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Speaker 1: with John Sting, I never myself and this one other

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Speaker 1: army officer, John Feely, who I'll tell you later, had

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Speaker 1: come over as a messenger from Sitcom. He worked for

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Speaker 1: Schwartz Coff to try and convince the Kuwaitis that you

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Speaker 1: know you're you're in deep You're you're in deep trouble here, guys,

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Speaker 1: you know you need so really was carrying the water

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Speaker 1: for Sitcom, saying it's time for you guys to mobilize

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Speaker 1: and start reacting. So he came about a week ahead

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Speaker 1: of time. But once I got there, as I was

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Speaker 1: telling you before, we went on recording our Colonel John Mooningham,

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Speaker 1: which unfortunately I don't think you ever were able to

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Speaker 1: touch base with him. Where are you John? No? I

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Speaker 1: wasn't he. I guess he sort of slipped into sort

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Speaker 1: of deep retirement. But but I got there and uh,

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Speaker 1: after a couple of weeks there was a large Russian

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Speaker 1: contingent of military, about forty Russians. They're training the Kuwaitis on.

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Speaker 1: They had bought BMP two's and there was a Yugoslavian

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Speaker 1: contingent because they had bought the Yugoslavia and m a

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Speaker 1: D four knockoff version of the T seventy two. So

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Speaker 1: the colonel calls me in and he said, hey, he said,

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Speaker 1: I know your duties are logistics and may and and

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Speaker 1: so forth, but uh, uh, the agency really wants to

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Speaker 1: try and get some serial numbers off this equipment to

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Speaker 1: determine if the Russians are violating various UH treaties and

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Speaker 1: so forth and so on. And that's when I met

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Speaker 1: the station chief. So it all kind of came together

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Speaker 1: with John's book because I never could feeling. I feeling

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Speaker 1: could kind of figured out, but I never knew why

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Speaker 1: I was selected to go on this escape group because

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Speaker 1: all the other guys were all in were Commo guys,

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Speaker 1: context guys and you know, SIG guys and and that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and uh so they were pretty vital.

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Speaker 1: But so I got asked to kind of do that.

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Speaker 1: And then the UH which was kind of interesting. A

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Speaker 1: month before the invasion, we all knew it was was coming.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've been up on the border. We had

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Speaker 1: seen the UH, the iraqis forming up and and all that.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to get the weightings attention. So they did

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Speaker 1: a little alert and Saddam said, hey, you guys, you

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Speaker 1: stand down your forces or I'm gonna smack you. And

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Speaker 1: and so they said, okay, well we'll stand down, and

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Speaker 1: they let everybody go on leave. So all the senior

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Speaker 1: military and in Kuwait literally, I mean the day the

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Speaker 1: day after that, after the Amir took the alert off,

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Speaker 1: they were gone. I mean they high tailed it to

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Speaker 1: England and Bahrain and and so forth. So so when

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Speaker 1: we went around to the brigades a few days before

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Speaker 1: the invasion, I mean, you were lucky to find a

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Speaker 1: major that it was kind of like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. They were totally lost. So the invasion

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Speaker 1: goes down, which was kind of interesting. A couple of

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Speaker 1: days after the invasion. From my villa where I lived,

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Speaker 1: off Fifth Wing Road, I could see the Kuwait International

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Speaker 1: Airport and we had brick radios and the ambassador put

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Speaker 1: out all the military there was about eleven in our team. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so he puts out the word military state put yeah,

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Speaker 1: don't don't come to the embassy and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: So we were we were stuck out on the on

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Speaker 1: the economy, so to speak. So I see this, I

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Speaker 1: L S I L seventy six land or with a

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Speaker 1: big Russian you know, logo on the side, and and

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Speaker 1: so forth, and it lands in. About two hours after that,

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Speaker 1: I get a call from Colonel Russland, who was the

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Speaker 1: the military guy in charge of the Russian advisors. And

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Speaker 1: I had kind of befriended him because I my mother

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Speaker 1: was was of Russian background, and so i'd have had

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Speaker 1: him out to the house. Of course, the agency was, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, you need to to uh to cultivate that

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Speaker 1: relationship and so forth. And he was a pretty good guy.

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Speaker 1: He was a Georgian. He was from the Soviet Georgia area.

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Speaker 1: But he calls me, and I don't know how he

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Speaker 1: got my phone number, but the land lines are still working.

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Speaker 1: So he calls me and he says, hey, if you

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Speaker 1: want to get your family and come out to the

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Speaker 1: Quayit International Airport, we'll fly you to Moscow and turn

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Speaker 1: you over to to the US. So I called Colonel

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Speaker 1: Mooningham and and he's hold up, and so I said,

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Speaker 1: he said, well, that's pretty interesting where they take all

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Speaker 1: of us And I could tell he I said, well,

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Speaker 1: who are you there with? Colonel he said it is

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Speaker 1: Johnny Walker. And I so I knew, I knew he

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Speaker 1: was about three sheets to the wind and uh but

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Speaker 1: he said nah, he said, look, he said, I've checked

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Speaker 1: with the ambassador and stuff, and uh, and of course

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Speaker 1: we knew that would be a no go, but the

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Speaker 1: ambassador said said no. So uh, so we we stayed

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Speaker 1: out there about eleven days, uh, in our in our

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Speaker 1: quarters or villas, and uh, kind of just monitoring, sending

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Speaker 1: in said reps of stuff we'd see and and we

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Speaker 1: knew they were now going around looking for Western nerves

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Speaker 1: and knocking on doors and stuff like that is kind

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Speaker 1: of reminiscent of people today, I guess. But so finally,

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Speaker 1: after about eleven days, the embassy said, hey, well we'll

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Speaker 1: we'll send a guy out escort you into the embassy.

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Speaker 1: And so some guy shows up. I didn't I didn't

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Speaker 1: know who he was. I didn't recognize him. He looked

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Speaker 1: like a third country national. He claimed he worked for

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Speaker 1: the transportation section of the embassy or whatever. But he said, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 1: come come with me. And I looked in the embassy.

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Speaker 1: So through a couple of checkpoints, not too bad, you know.

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Speaker 1: He bartered with him and and we got on into

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Speaker 1: the embassy and uh so basically we we just held

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Speaker 1: up for about a month in the embassy and myself

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Speaker 1: and a WARRN officer named Dave Forties. Uh, the food

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Speaker 1: stocks were pretty low in the embassy. We were the

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Speaker 1: army had called and classified us as beleaguered surrounded by

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Speaker 1: a hostile force. To clue to escape, but so we're

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Speaker 1: holed up and uh, and Forties had already been there.

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Speaker 1: He spoke some Arabic and he had had already been

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Speaker 1: in Quait for a couple of years. He was an

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Speaker 1: armament tech. He kept all their artillery running and stuff.

337
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Speaker 1: But so we uh, we started going out foraging for food.

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Speaker 1: He knew several of the Kuwaitis that owned the large

339
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Speaker 1: Sultan Center and a Kroger and um, so we were

340
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Speaker 1: able to go out and get large stockpiles of tuna.

341
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Speaker 1: So the whole embassy staff. I guess by then it

342
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Speaker 1: was close to a couple of hundred of us because

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Speaker 1: we took in uh. You may recall there was a

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Speaker 1: British Airways flight that got trapped, had landed just as

345
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Speaker 1: the invasion was going on. So we took in a

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Speaker 1: lot of all the Americans off that flight and stuff.

347
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Speaker 1: So so forties and I kind of ran the streets

348
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Speaker 1: for about a month or so, going in and out.

349
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Speaker 1: Feeley was the other guy that went out with me.

350
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Speaker 1: He was in our our old offices, and they kind

351
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Speaker 1: of set it up like a talk. They still had

352
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Speaker 1: a stew line stew three lines, so he's Feeley's given

353
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: sid reps back to the J two and sitcom what's

354
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Speaker 1: going on. We'd meet with Feely and you know, let

355
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Speaker 1: him know, I mean the hot item then was you know,

356
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 1: looking for scuds and things like that, because he was

357
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:25,480
Speaker 1: threatening all this chemical stuff. So so anyhow, Ambassador how

358
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 1: finally struck a deal with the um iraqis that we

359
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: would all be transported to Baghdad to receive our eggs

360
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: and visas and leave. And you know, of course, all

361
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 1: the military guys, we were all pretty skeptical of that,

362
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: and and uh so we prepared convoys, got everybody rigged up,

363
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 1: got the families all brief. Colonel had had a bunch

364
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: of glint tape that the Marines had we taped up

365
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: the roof of the cars so we'd have in case,

366
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, the overheads could pick us up. And as

367
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: we would go. So the morning we were due to

368
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 1: depart about five in the morning and Iraqi major shows

369
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,199
Speaker 1: up and he's he's got all these Mercedes two and

370
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 1: a half ton trucks and he's like, oh, no, no,

371
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Speaker 1: you know you must everybody must go on the trucks.

372
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Speaker 1: And so the ambassador is like, no, that's not gonna happen.

373
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Speaker 1: We're not gonna put women and kids and dogs and

374
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Speaker 1: cats and people in the back of UH you know,

375
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: canvas top two and a half ton trucks and it's

376
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty degrees outside. So the deal got

377
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: got called off. So we waited another twenty four hours.

378
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: They finally agreed to let us take take our p

379
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: o v s and embassy staff cars and stuff, and

380
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,959
Speaker 1: UH ambassador got in the lead of the convoy and

381
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: we hauled ass up to staff on to the border

382
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: crossing area, and then we sat there for almost six

383
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 1: hours because they wanted to go through every every piece

384
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: of luggage, every passport, and as John has probably learned

385
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Speaker 1: in his research for the book, the Iraqi were very

386
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: anal about not letting anybody pass unless the order came

387
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: back down from Baghdad that yes, this these guys could

388
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: go or whoever they were. So after about six hours

389
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: they finally the ambassador turned left, went back to Quake

390
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,640
Speaker 1: City and off we went. Took us about twenty one

391
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: hours to work our way through the various uh roadblocks

392
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: and checkpoints to make it the Baghdad and we get

393
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 1: the Baghdad. Good guy there, the d c M of

394
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Speaker 1: Mission there was a guy named Joe Wilson, and uh,

395
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Speaker 1: uh he was. He was a good guy. Took uh

396
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Speaker 1: you know, a political and he took no bs from

397
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: the Iraqis, and uh he took good care of us.

398
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: So we all loggered up there for a couple of days,

399
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: and you know, he said, hey, I'm gonna get you out.

400
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: Uh ended up he was able to get the women

401
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: and children out. They all my wife and kids and

402
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 1: and all the other wives and kids. They ended up

403
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: driving themselves to Zaku dirt g the Harvard gate up

404
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: there to the crossing. Took them about twenty hours and

405
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: uh they got all the way up there, and then

406
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: the Iraqi said, no, you can't drive the cars across.

407
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to dismount and walk across and stuff.

408
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: So it's in the US was on the other side

409
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: of the border picked them up. But so the guys

410
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 1: that the men are all stuck. And at that point

411
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: we had dwindled down. We were about thirty five. Our

412
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: marine detachment from Kuwait actually came to Baghdad because uh

413
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 1: the ambassador didn't in Kuwait, didn't want to keep the

414
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: marines there and he felt that would give a pretext

415
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: to the Iraqis to storm the compound or whatever. And

416
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: he actually made the marines destroy all their weapons out

417
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: in the courtyard so the Iraqis could see them doing it.

418
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: And uh so the Marines all came to Baghdad took

419
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: over the mission up at Baghdad of providing the because

420
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: their marine had already left with April glassby when when

421
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: she had left, and so so Joe Wilson was like, hell, yeah,

422
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: I'll take your marines, he said, you know, he said,

423
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, I still have the weapons from the Marines

424
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 1: that were here, so he said, bring them on. So

425
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: they came up. They were good guys, and uh but

426
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: uh so as as this time now, it's it's about

427
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: it's about the first of September, and I guess around

428
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: about mid September, we are Colonel had gotten us together

429
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: and so look, we we gotta come up with a

430
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: way to get out of here. And uh so we

431
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: started canvassing various embassies in Baghdad and kind of put

432
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: a plan together and buddy teams that. Certainly some of

433
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: the European embassy said hey, yeah, we'll let you seek

434
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 1: uh safe haven with us if they come after you.

435
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: But they, you know, they didn't want to. Most of

436
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: them didn't want to do it. Surprisingly, the Cubans were

437
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: pretty pretty welcome to like, hey, yeah, you guys, come

438
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: on over here. Now that they might have had an

439
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: ulterior motive, I don't know, but they were. They were

440
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: pretty uh, they were pretty interesting and in offering uh

441
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: uh their embassy to some of the Americans. So so

442
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: about mid September, our guy huntered downs it said, hey,

443
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: it looks like we may get some foreign help. He

444
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: hadn't He didn't disclose it with the Poles or anything,

445
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: um until later on. And then around the first of September.

446
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: I guess it was grummick Um John who did the

447
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: initial Yeah. So so hunter Hunter calls me in and

448
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,479
Speaker 1: he said, hey, look, would you would you be willing

449
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: to go on this uh potential uh escape and evasion

450
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 1: operation led by he said, an East Block country. So

451
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: I was like, well, you know, of course I didn't

452
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: really trust Hunter too much. As I had said in

453
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: John's book, he was a little dubious on some things,

454
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: but but he was always you know, oh yeah, look,

455
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be running this thing. These guys are just

456
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: gonna facilitate the means to get out and all that

457
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. So so I went to Colonel Mooningham

458
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: and I said, hey, you know, what, what's up with this?

459
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: And he said, look, Freddy, he said, you need, you

460
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: need to do this. He said, don't don't worry about Hunter.

461
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: He said, these guys that are working with them are

462
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: really really top notch guys, and you'll you'll be okay,

463
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: don't don't worry about it. And I think finally also

464
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: kind of had some reservations too. I think one of

465
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 1: his remark was, are you kidding me? Poles? You know

466
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: what kind of what kind of show was that? What

467
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: was his quote? What was his quote to you? John?

468
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: And the in the book Feeley had said about the

469
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: polls when you tell you was gob smack. Yeah, it

470
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: was a pole. So let me involved in the Yeah, yeah,

471
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: let me't you rep you for a second, fred, I

472
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you on a question here, and did

473
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: you talk to Hunter? No? I tried to talk to Hunter,

474
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: but Hunter didn't want to talk to me. Now thinks

475
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: I think he's dead, but I know he's a lot

476
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: a lot I got. I sent you a couple of

477
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: emails he sent me. Well, we know somebody's on the

478
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: other end exactly. But you know, I respect this decision. Okay, um, Now,

479
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: at this point, the polls have picked the guy that's

480
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: going to run this operation. How did they come about

481
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: this decision? So September twentie um c I a station

482
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: chief Bill Norville, and Warsaw asks his Polish counterparty, got

483
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: named Christoph Smolenski for meeting in one of the very

484
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: same parts that during old war times the Americans and

485
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: the Poles used to have dead drops, which is kind

486
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: of ironic, but you know, things change, right, And then

487
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: you have a meeting at a park bench in which

488
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: Norville says, hey, we got these six guys in Iraq

489
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: and we need to need to get him out. Can

490
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: you help? And the Smolenski tells Norvil, look, give me

491
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: twenty four hours, but pretty much within six hours. They

492
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: go to the Polish Ministry of Interior. This guy named

493
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: Andre Miltunovski, who was the head of the UP headed

494
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: the Polish intelligence agency, who had during during the communist times,

495
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: had been a solidarity activist that had done jail time

496
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: for fighting the Communists, basically goes, yeah, let's do it.

497
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: These guys the CIA helped us during the Cold War.

498
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: We're gonna help them now that we're a free country.

499
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: And the Miltunovski makes the decision without informing his superiors

500
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: with the Ministry of Interior or any or even the

501
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: Prime Minister, figuring that if once it got up to

502
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: such a high level in Poland, that these guys will

503
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: be afraid of failure in which shut it down. So

504
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: they make the decision, and then there's a question about

505
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: who they're gonna send. Initially they thought that the local

506
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: station chief in Warsaw and a sort of local station

507
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: chief in Baghdad I got named Morande, could handle it.

508
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: But Marande was about to retire. He'd been a intelligence

509
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: officer for thirty plus years. He was he was pushing sixty,

510
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: and it very quickly became clear to Smolensky that he

511
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: wasn't handling it. And then the poll said, well, maybe

512
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: we'll send Smolensky, but Norvill said, no, this guy is

513
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: a great liaison officer. We need him in Warsaw to

514
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, liaise between the two tides. And just at

515
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: that point, returning from counter terrorism training in America is

516
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: this legendary spot named Gromswab Chapinski and they say you're

517
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: going to Baghdad, and literally he gets off the plane,

518
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: gets on another and he gets on a lot flight

519
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: which is empty. It's him and a new new new

520
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: ambassador to Iraq fly into Baghdad on it was I

521
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: think October twelve, landing bag down. He's he's under, he's under,

522
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, under a fake name. His name is Andre Novak,

523
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: who was introduced as a new second secretary in the

524
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: Polish embassy with his new ambassador, which was an excuse

525
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: for the flight. UM and he begins to then set

526
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: things up and they have a meeting with UM the Americans.

527
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 1: They obviously have meetings to basically organize it, and Champinski

528
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: discovers relatively quickly that as a Polish diplomat he can't

529
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: move around the city. But he discovers it as a

530
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: Polish potentially as a Polish businessman, like an executive for

531
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: these state owned companies, he has a lot more freedom

532
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: to go through Polish check checkpoints. So he adopts another

533
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: identity in addition to his fake diplomatic identity, which is

534
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: as Polish businessman um, and he has fake I D

535
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: based on that as well. And so here is moving

536
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: around the capital trying to figure out how I'm not

537
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: going to get these six guys out of a rap

538
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of talk with Moynahan Um. I'm

539
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: not how they were gonna go, whether they wanted to

540
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: punch out in the Syrian border in a kinetic operation,

541
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: had hadn't sent him down to Jordan where there's total

542
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: chaos on the border there, or drive him out north

543
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: to to the Zaho border crossing with Turkey. And one

544
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: of the important factors is there is a whole bunch

545
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: of Poles who had studied in a whole bunch of

546
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: Iraqi sorry, who had studied in Poland during the Cold War,

547
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: and so there were a lot of Iraqis who spoke Polish.

548
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: And even amongst the customs and the border patrol guys,

549
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: there were Iraqis who spoke polars, and they determined the

550
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: Polish and diligence that they were about six or seven

551
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: Polish speaking Iraqi border guys, and they tried to find

552
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: out where they were deployed, and in the beginning they

553
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: were all deployed in the south. So that basically decided

554
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: that they got to go north, and so they made

555
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: plans to drive them north bag down the mosel Mos

556
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: of Azako and out through Turkey. Yeah, that was that

557
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: was a big go ahead at this point, John um

558
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: O friend excuse me. Yeah, so at this point, now

559
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: you guys have been basically in the limbo for a

560
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: couple of months, so tensions had to be rising at

561
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: this point. Yeah. We we had gone through a couple

562
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 1: of you know, the embassy in those days, uh was

563
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: in downtown Baghdad, sort of on the side street. It

564
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: was really I was kind of flabbergasted when I got there,

565
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: how small it really was and in a congested area,

566
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: but the Iraqis had surrounded it. Uh. There were diplomatic

567
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: quarters on the block next where Ambassador Wilson had had

568
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: housed us all and we were allowed to kind of

569
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 1: come and go from the embassy to our quarters and

570
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: then uh forties and I were able to uh our past.

571
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: We didn't have our diplomatic passports, they were all kepting

572
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: the embassy, so uh we uh we were able to

573
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: use some of the diplomatic plate call ours at the

574
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: embassy had, and we could we could move around. We

575
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: were allowed to go and visit where some of the

576
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: construction workers, US construction workers were staying at the ambassador's quarters,

577
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: which was out in a really nice plush area of Baghdad,

578
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: and so you know, we'd kind of take our time

579
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: and scout around with that. But but when the a

580
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: couple of weeks before the escape went down there, we

581
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: had a couple of evenings where the Iraqi showed up

582
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: with military vehicles and you know, probably a couple of

583
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: squad size guys. Uh. I don't know uniform wise, if

584
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 1: they were special ops guys or what, but they were

585
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: trying to intimidate Wilson and uh so we knew things

586
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: were getting and then they kept sending demands to the

587
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: embassy to identify all the personnel who were left and

588
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: what they were at arrested in. They knew there was

589
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: a military staff that had had left back or left

590
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: Kuwait City. So they wanted to know who those guys were.

591
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: It was kind of amazed us because they, you know,

592
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: they had seized the Kuwaiti Ministry of Foreign Affairs, So

593
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I would have thought with a little bit

594
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: of investigative work, they probably could have found the you know,

595
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: the accredited diplomatic list and so forth. And we all

596
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: carried passports. We weren't on official passports and stuff, and

597
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: that was just something that the Kuwaitis want, and we

598
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 1: wore civilian clothes while we were on duty. But so

599
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: they were they were really trying to root out who

600
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: was there and then what what what diplomats from the

601
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: Kuwait staff were in Baghdad. And see, they didn't have

602
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: a problem if you were a businessman or a contractor. Uh,

603
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 1: the Iraqis didn't have a problem with giving you an

604
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: exit visa and letting you go under their terms. But

605
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: you still could go, and and they kind of had

606
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: that whole hostage uh bargaining going on. You know, Jesse

607
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: Jackson came over, and Ramsey Clark and all these different

608
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: guys would would roll into Baghdad every week and and

609
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: they'd let him leave with two or three Americans, you know,

610
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: so uh, so it was kind of interesting. And see,

611
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: none of us we we had a couple of guys

612
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: that had some medical conditions and Jesse Jackson was trying

613
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: to get them out, but there was just too much

614
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: a risk if they found out that they were military.

615
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,439
Speaker 1: Because we knew Philey and myself and a couple other

616
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: guys we were we were tracking. There was one one

617
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: American military officer, uh named Stanton who I don't know

618
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: what he was up to, but he he played some

619
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: kind of game and he came up to Kuwait the

620
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 1: night before the invasion. He was working for PM Sang

621
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia, so I think he thought, you know, hey,

622
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: I just my chance and go be a I don't know,

623
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: a hero or whatever. So he uh and all those

624
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: sitcom it issued a travel warning and do not go.

625
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: But this guy had come up checked himself into the

626
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: Sheridan Hotel and then the Iraqi started going around banging

627
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: on doors and he handed him his military I D card. Well,

628
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: of course you know what he ended up. He ended

629
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: up in a chemical plant or concrete plant somewhere somewhere

630
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: up near Mosele and uh and so he got to

631
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: stay the full full tour. Um, so we knew, we

632
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: knew they were they were after folks. And then uh,

633
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: and I was told that, hey, if this works, uh,

634
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: if the polls are successful with this and it can

635
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: go off with the relative ease, then the next group

636
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: would go and they were gonna try and start X

637
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: fil trading. Uh. And then I was we were brave

638
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: when we first met Grummick. I mean, the thing we

639
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: didn't know what what John was revealing was about the

640
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: Polish speakers. I mean we didn't even we didn't even

641
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: think about that. And then but Grummick had told us

642
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: at one point he said, hey, look, you know, you

643
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: guys gotta keep your mouth shut. I mean, they tried

644
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: to teach us a little bit of Polish. But uh,

645
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, I I'm from I'm from Georgia, and Phieley

646
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: was from the West Coast, so so and then the

647
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: other the other guys were young, they were young communicators

648
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: and stuff and so other Nick Lahota, which was an

649
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: older gentleman. And uh, and so you know, we'd have

650
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: these big, long Polish names. I was lucky I had it.

651
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: I had a very easy name on my Polish passport.

652
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: And it was Russ and was the last name, so

653
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: it was it was a no brainer for me. But

654
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: so Grumwick would get us to try and say something

655
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: and he would just he'd throw his head. He said, man,

656
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: he said, you guys, I don't want you talking. Don't

657
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: don't say a word. And this is where this whole

658
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 1: deal about Booze came in. So he he came back

659
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: the next time we had our little meeting. You know,

660
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: he had Satchell's full of Johnny Walker red and and

661
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: whiskey and everything else. And he said, you know you're

662
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: gonna keep this stuff on you and uh and so

663
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: he said, I'm gonna tell the Iraqis y'all are just

664
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: a bunch of drunk polish, you know, uh, construction workers

665
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: and stuff. Because I remember when John's article came out

666
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: in the Washington Post and what January of nine three

667
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: or four something like that, which was kind of interesting

668
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: because uh, I I didn't, I didn't. I was living

669
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: up in Chester, Virginia at the time, and all of

670
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: a sudden, I get this letter a few weeks later,

671
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 1: and it's John's article and I see as John Palm

672
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: Pritt and all this stuff. But but then I heard

673
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: John on National Public Radio one day driving home from work.

674
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: I told my wife, I said, Chris, this story and

675
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 1: how I got out is out, Because what are you

676
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: talking about? I said, There was this dude on National

677
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: Public Radio. He was he was telling the story to

678
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: this NBR commentator and stuff, because I was when after

679
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: I got home, I mean, you know, I got I

680
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: got the old uh brief that you you utter anything,

681
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: you're you're dead. You're gonna go to Leavenworth and you'll

682
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: never see the light of day and all that. So

683
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: I lived in fear for you know, good ten fifteen

684
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: years of Even when I wrote my paper to War College,

685
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: the agency guy on staff there was like, oh you

686
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't write this stuff. So I had to.

687
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: I had to water it all down and and so

688
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: for Sitcom approved it. But uh anyhow, it was so

689
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: it uh it was. It was a high adventure, it

690
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: really it really was. Because one Hunter was there, and

691
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: Hunter Hunter caused a lot of friction with with Grummick,

692
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: and we all to the man, we all were like, hey,

693
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: if ship goes south, we're sticking with Grummit and and

694
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: Hunter Hunter can he can carry his own weight? Man

695
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: I mean I hate to talk that. I mean, he

696
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: he but he just he was like one of these

697
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: guys we were talking before recording that, you know, he just, uh,

698
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: he thought he was going to run the operation when

699
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: he was just a passenger. You know. Now, um, you

700
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: you also had a agency communicator with you that was

701
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: kind of falling apart of the seams. And yeah, Nick

702
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: was that mustive buddy, you know, as you know Steve,

703
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 1: you know everybody, we all broke up into two man

704
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: teams and Nick was my battle buddy. And and really

705
00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: through John I kind of learned the backstory on Nick

706
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: it because he never would talk about it, but I

707
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: mean he had gone through Burma, a coup data and

708
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: Burma where him and his family were you know, witnessed

709
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: just you know, people being killed in the streets and

710
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: round up and murdered and and everything else. And so

711
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: this I think Kuwait he was kind of told the

712
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: same thing I was. You know, Kuwait's a sleepy little

713
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: place to go to and it's no problem. And but

714
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,720
Speaker 1: but Nick was he he I don't say a death wish,

715
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: but he always thought he you know, he didn't he

716
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: didn't trust anybody but him himself. Because of his experience

717
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 1: in Burma and what they went through. So but he

718
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: he was just a nervous, nervous guy and he he

719
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: was like me. He didn't have a whole lot of

720
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: faith in hunter Downs and uh he felt good about

721
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: the polls because he you know, he was a Polish

722
00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: ancestry also, I believe, and uh so Nick. Uh So,

723
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: Nick was paired up with me. Uh even the night before.

724
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: You know, he said, you know, for everybody, we're gonna

725
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: wash up in the Euphrates rivers, you know, downstream somewhere

726
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: and all this stuff. And uh but he uh, when

727
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: we we finally, uh we kept them pretty calm. And

728
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: then when we got up to the border crossing, Uh,

729
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, we ended up there for almost two and

730
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: a half hours waiting for them to approve us. And

731
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: you know, as Americans sitting there with a Polish passport,

732
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: and you have Grummick who's doing all the talking, and

733
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: you've got all these Iraqis and then and the fear

734
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 1: of a Polish speaker showing up. Um, and you're you're

735
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: sitting there, they bring in a room and and uh,

736
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: you're just waiting and waiting and waiting, and then you know.

737
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: I mean they had told us that Grummick had said, hey,

738
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: if we get revealed, I mean they all bets are off.

739
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: I mean with what the iraqis. I mean they had

740
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: alread executed a British guy early on in desert, right

741
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: after the invasion. I think he was a journalist actually

742
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: that they accused of fine executed him. I think you

743
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: may recall that, John, and so so, I mean, you know,

744
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: it was it was a little bit uh you know,

745
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: bucker factor was. It was definitely up in that situation.

746
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: So so finally, after about two and a half hours,

747
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: we're here. The clink could clink of the of the

748
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: stamp in the in the book, and uh so Grummick

749
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: grabs all the passports, comes over and he says, get

750
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: your bags and go, and so we start the head out.

751
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: Of course, they wanted to do a customers check on us,

752
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: and so they moved this over to the sort of

753
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: stall areas where they checked everybody's bag. And I'm with

754
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: the Nick, and I knew a little bit of Arabic,

755
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: and so this this Iraqi started questioning Nick. And you know,

756
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: so I I responded with a couple of things and

757
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: and just pulled out one of Nick's Carton's cigarettes and

758
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: handed it to the guy and and so you know,

759
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: he did the old hand wave and stuff and uh

760
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: and we were able to get on out of there

761
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: and head across the head across the border. Now. I

762
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 1: think in some of the accounts he said we took

763
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: off grummick and said we ran across the border. I

764
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: don't remember that. Maybe my adrenaline was such at the time,

765
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: but I remember walking at a pretty good clip and

766
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 1: then being asked by one last Iraqi on the bridge

767
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: for some cigarettes. And I had a pack of marlborough

768
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: and I just handed him pack of Marlborough's and we

769
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: literally could see Richard and and uh we called a

770
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: Mario Andretti the other guy standing at the other end

771
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: of the bridge waiting for us, and uh, so off

772
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: we walked on across into Freedom with them, and of

773
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: course they grabbed us by the collar and said keep

774
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: your mouth shut, you don't say anything. And uh, because

775
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: we thought we'd get there and would be a bus

776
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: and there'd be US officials and stuff. And he said, no,

777
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 1: we're going incognito all the way to Ankh to Istanbul.

778
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, we're we're always over on

779
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: the eastern side of Turkey, and I mean it's like

780
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: fifteen under kilometers that we're gonna throw your asses in

781
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: these cars and off we're gonna go. And so that

782
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: was like a I think a two day drive across

783
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: Turkey to get to Istanbul and then on on up

784
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: to the Warsaw after that. But not a whole lot

785
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: of understand that. Yeah, I understand after you got home.

786
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: You were only back in the States a very short

787
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: while and you got a call from General Schwartzkov asking

788
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: you if you had done you know, taking it easy. Okay, Yeah,

789
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: I was just a low life and sorrowful guy. You know,

790
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel it was big time. Was

791
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: he was connected with sports goff and stuff. So I

792
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 1: never got my suit back from Feeling either. I lent him.

793
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 1: None of his baggage made it over and he had

794
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: to go brief the co eighties in the morning. He

795
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: was a little bit taller than me, but he he's

796
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: walking around where one of my suits and stuff and

797
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: it kind of looked like high water pants. And I

798
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: always kidded John about that, say, hey, whatever happened to

799
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: my three suit? I lent you man, but yeah, I

800
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: feel it was all right John my view on feeling

801
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: he was thrown into a situation he didn't ask for either.

802
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: So well, John, at this point, now obviously you know,

803
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 1: the feelings are much closer with the US and the polls,

804
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: and then you know it gets even closer through a

805
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 1: few years of cooperation and friendship there, and the Polls

806
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: will want to emulate everything you know that the CIA

807
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: is doing. At this point, yeah, I mean, so the

808
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: operation happens, which the Polls called Operation Friendly Saddam, It's successful. Uh.

809
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 1: And November seventeen, William Webster, then the then director of

810
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: the CIA, comes to Poland on a secret trip, the

811
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: first trip of a CIA director to Eastern Europe, and

812
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: we're off of the races basically, UM. The CIA engages

813
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: to train a special operations force of the Polls called GROM,

814
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: which is a lot of your members know very well

815
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: because of the joint training that continues to this day

816
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: and joint activity during the Iraqi War for example. UM.

817
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: And then around the world, Polish and CIA officers are

818
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: working together, not cyst in the Middle East, but also

819
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 1: in Africa, in Latin America and Cuba. UM in North Korea,

820
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: UH and on a variety of kind of really bad

821
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: places around the world that the agency doesn't have access

822
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: to because we don't have diplomatic relations. And for example,

823
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: in North Korea, the Polls provided a lot of intelligence

824
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: based on their ability to move in ci A technical

825
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: equipment into their embassy in North Korea, UM and UH.

826
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 1: Cuba was the same type of situation UH and Iran

827
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: as well. UH and they were willing to do almost

828
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: anything for US, and the CIA would had was not

829
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: shy asking them to do a lot of stuff for US,

830
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: because the Polls very much wanted to solve what has

831
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: been for Poland kind of this millennial problem, how to

832
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 1: have security in a really dangerous neighborhood when your country

833
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: is completely flat and it's been used as an invasion

834
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: route for centuries. And their their way of doing that

835
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: was getting into NATO, and that was a holy grail

836
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: for them. And they looked at INTEL its cooperation is

837
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: being their ace in the whole because per your friend UM,

838
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: your CIA contact, they were very good at being intelligence

839
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: officers and they really proved themselves to be a remarkable

840
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: ally of the United States. Yeah, and you know, reading

841
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: the book, you know Um, again, I wasn't aware of

842
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff, especially in North Korea, and

843
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, the North Koreans looked upon them as you know,

844
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 1: fellow communists. I guess, so socialist brothers. That's that was Yeah,

845
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 1: that was it in the book. But do you think

846
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 1: that things started to turn sour with the Polish you know,

847
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: UM intelligence people with this black site that we had

848
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: there or was it actually before that? I think, Um,

849
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I think that black you know,

850
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,719
Speaker 1: there's still continued in very close relationship to this day

851
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: from what I understand. Um, but I think the black

852
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: site in Baroglio, and just to back up a bit,

853
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 1: the CIA based a black site in at the Polish

854
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 1: Intelligence Training Center, UM during the after in in in

855
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: the in the after noon eleven where we interrogated high

856
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: value prisoners, including Kardi Chik Mohammed, like the architect of

857
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: the No. Eleven disaster. UM. And we kind of let

858
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: let the polls out, kind of hunging out to dry

859
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: on that one, because um, the acknowledgement that there were

860
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: black sites was made by George W. Bush without telling

861
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 1: the polls ahead of time that we were planning on

862
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: acknowledging it, and the polls really felt on in a

863
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: series of situations that they'd really done Yeoman's work for us.

864
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: They try to protect us and then we leaked and

865
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: ended up screwing them over. And regardless of what whether

866
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: you think the black sites were staying on America or not,

867
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: the fact that we with the CIA leaked about it

868
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: really hung the pole their perspective as you really hung

869
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: us out to dry on this one, because you know,

870
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: you're already acknowledging it, and we spent months denying it

871
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 1: in order to try to protect you, and now suddenly

872
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: you're not protecting us. And so I think that that

873
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: amongst the professionals really was was a moment that they

874
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: felt kind of hard done by. But at the same

875
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: time their perspective as they have no place to go,

876
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: they want to be NATO, a strong NATO member, because

877
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: that's what they view to be in their security interests.

878
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: And it's interesting in Poland, it's a fracture society. They

879
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the post political parties don't really agree

880
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: on much, but the one thing they all agree on

881
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: is they want an alliance with the United States and

882
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: as an as evidenced by the fact that they had

883
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: an ambassador in the United States they got in Jersey

884
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: Kasminski for six years, even though at the same time

885
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: they went through about five different prime ministers. But they

886
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,720
Speaker 1: had one ambassador in America and he had one message,

887
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: we want to be in NATO. And so they yeah,

888
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: they finally got that. They got that, they got that,

889
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: um And part of the reason why I think that

890
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 1: they nodded and winked as I reported the story about

891
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 1: the expultration was because at that point they were getting

892
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: pretty anxious and impatient, and so all those diplomats and

893
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: other people nodded and minked, winked at me as I

894
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: as I reported the story, and did a little bit

895
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: to help me out. Yeah, you know that, you know,

896
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: were you able to talk with a lot of the

897
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 1: principles for this story with them, and I imagine most

898
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: of those guys speak English. So yeah, So in reporting

899
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: the book, I talked to pretty much all the major characters.

900
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: In reporting the story back in it was pretty much Chimpinski,

901
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: and he was like coming over to my house and

902
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, we would have shouting matches over what I

903
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,759
Speaker 1: could and couldn't use, you know, because again for him,

904
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 1: it's its sources and methods that he wants to protect,

905
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: which is totally understandable. UM. For me, I'm trying to

906
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: get the best story as possible without putting anybody at risk.

907
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: But after that, UM, starting in look, I've been reporting

908
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: this book for about four or five years now. At

909
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: that point I began to meet everybody involved, UM, and

910
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: he helped, and even when he didn't help, others helped. UM.

911
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: And then getting to Fred and getting to John was

912
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: kind of fortuitous. It's through a gentleman who worked at

913
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: the Air Force Academy in Alabama actually got me in

914
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 1: touch with Fred, and Fred was more than welcoming, and

915
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: I went down to Alabama to see him there UM

916
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: at his estate, UM, you know, Alabama, and that was great.

917
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: It was great to be there in person. And then

918
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 1: really works just happen. Thank you. I'm looking forward to

919
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: my next visit. And then really I got to got

920
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: to know Relative. He's down in Monterey because he's a

921
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: West Coast boy and he still sails. He was a

922
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: racer back in the day. UM, but Hunter downs now

923
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: and then ling nic Lahota fortunately has passed. And then

924
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: there's other people who were who were excel traded who

925
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: continued to work in the U. S. Government, and so

926
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: I have no interest in identifying them or finding them either. Yeah.

927
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: So when does the book come out? So it comes

928
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 1: out really October. Officially it was the Memories Steve. I

929
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 1: had written it down somewhere in my notes and I

930
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: couldn't find it, and I thought I had wrote it

931
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: in town. It was though, m now this will be

932
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: on Amazon, I take it, and you know all the

933
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: major booksellers for more. So with love, yes it will

934
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: be Hey, uh, well we uh, Steve, let me look

935
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 1: forward to our Steve, if I made four four you

936
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: close off. Let me just say a couple of things

937
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: for your soft community is uh from my my my

938
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: total experience over there number one uh Uh. The JFK

939
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 1: Warfare School used to run a really great course called

940
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: Individual Terrorists Awareness Course, and my wife and I were

941
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to go to that prior to going to Kuwait,

942
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 1: and it made a huge difference in being able to

943
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: deal with the situation. I mean the instructors there were experts.

944
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: I mean they taught us to tap code, and they

945
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: taught us, you know, the five finger code and and

946
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and I mean it was good it

947
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,760
Speaker 1: was good stuff to have in your kit bag because

948
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, I mean nowadays you never know where you know,

949
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: ship can go to Hell in a handbasket. But uh

950
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: so number one, that was the first thing. The other

951
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: sort of lesson learned, and I might alluded to it

952
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: in my my war college paper, is the fact that

953
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: as military guys, when we all did get repatriated and

954
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: back to the States, I was pretty amazed at how

955
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: the intel community really had no interest one and what

956
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: had happened to us, and then our story and what

957
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: we had seen and had done now uh forties and

958
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: I we we did render a lot of sid rep reports.

959
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure that went up the chain that helped with

960
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: various things because phely uh with the stew line until

961
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 1: they lost that around the end of August, but uh

962
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: I did upon our return, we we were taken to

963
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: Camp Perry and uh and spent a day or so

964
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: debriefing with the agency folks, and we did we did

965
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 1: meet with some Delta folks at the time who were

966
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: you know, they were interested in the layout of the

967
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: embassy for potential rescue mission into the embassy, but that

968
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: that basically went down the tubes because you you had

969
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: to quit International Hotel right over the embassy, but seventeen

970
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: stories so and you had an entire Iraqi company up there. So,

971
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: I mean it would have been an absolute suicide mission.

972
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: But when I did get back to the state sitcom

973
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: j J two, it's said, hey, you go home, don't

974
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: talk to anybody, don't see anybody. But I was kind

975
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: of surprising, uh. And when I did go back the

976
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: desert show him it was Frank Tuney was the guy

977
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 1: that was Frank Tony. Frank Tony uh In. Our Colonel

978
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: Mooningham had gone back also, and he he sent us

979
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: out to the desert to link up with Frank's guys

980
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: and kind of give them a rundown on what we

981
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: knew about Baghdad. In the streets of Baghdad, I mean

982
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: I came, uh, when Chris came home, she brought back,

983
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: oh maybe ten rolls the thirty five millimeter film U

984
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: photos I was taking of Iraqi formations coming into Quait.

985
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: I also had you know, uh, street maps of of

986
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: Baghdad and so forth. Now, I guess today with technology

987
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: back then, maybe it wasn't needed. But I would tell

988
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: the soft community, if you have the ability to to

989
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: speak with people that have just come out of an

990
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: area like that and and get some intel from I

991
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: think they'll they'll find that's a pretty good helpful, you know,

992
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: sort of tidbits that you don't really think of, and

993
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 1: if they ask the right questions, they can they can

994
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: come up with some pretty uh, pretty good useful operational

995
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: or tactical level type of intel. Excellent. Well, gentlemen, I

996
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: really want to thank you guys for taking the time

997
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: with us today. I know we had a little bit

998
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: of a glitch getting all three of us connected today,

999
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: but we got it done and we look forward to

1000
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: uh promoting the book and you know, we'll we'll promote

1001
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: it as best we can here on the podcast, both

1002
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: on our site and on our YouTube channel. Uh. Is

1003
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: there anything else you guys would like to share about

1004
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: the book and its upcoming release? Be well, we let

1005
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 1: you guys go. I'm looking forward to the I've always

1006
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: I've only read the couple. Yeah, well you lived it

1007
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: so that. Yeah, but John, but then he filled in

1008
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: for me. I didn't know any of that backstory stuff.

1009
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: I mean it all started with me with with Grummick,

1010
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, coming coming into the embassy there, so good stuff.

1011
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: It was a fascinating story about the polls and the

1012
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: intelligence community, and you know it's something that I know

1013
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: a lot of us had never heard of before, and

1014
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's it's one of those gripping tales that

1015
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 1: sounds like James Bond, you know film, but it's all

1016
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: real life stuff. So you know, I encourage all our

1017
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: listeners out there, all our readers of software dot com

1018
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: to check it out as soon as it is really stin.

1019
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I think you'll be, you know, missing a

1020
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: lot of meals and you'll be turning the pages. So John, Fred,

1021
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today. We really appreciate your time.

1022
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: And that was a tremendous book. And thank you for

1023
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: sending me advanced copy of that. Thank you, Steve, thank

1024
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: you Fred, Okay for all of us here at soft

1025
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: reap dot com and Software Radio, thank you for joining us. Gentlemen.

1026
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: We'll be back real soon with another podcast. Love been

1027
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 1: listening to self Rep Radio m HM.