1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 2: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you. 14 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I have an odd question for you? Uh, 15 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: and I know I always do. I start every episode 16 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: like that. I have an odd question for you both. 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: I get little nervous about this. It's like, what's going 18 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: to happen? What am I going to be forced to. 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 3: Have to reveal? 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: No, No, it's not that interesting. It is odd. So 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: the case of what we're going to talk about today 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: is a really well known case from eighteen thirties New York, 23 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: well known to me and any history geek who likes 24 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: true crime. But the reason I'm bringing that up is 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: because the subject of the case was featured in a 26 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: really unusual museum in the eighteen hundreds that a lot 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: of well known authors like to visit, the wax museum. 28 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: Have you ever been to one of those wax museum anywhere? 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: Like I went to one in London and I can't 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: remember which one it was. Have you done that before? 31 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, when I was young, I remember going, 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: is it Madam Tussaut? 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: I don't remember how to pronounce it. Please don't kill 34 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: us listeners, but yes, everybody knows what you're talking about. 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and if I remember right, that was out in Hollywood. 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: What did you think? 37 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's interesting because of course now that 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,119 Speaker 2: you see these famous individuals, because typically you see them 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: in magazines or on TV or something, and so to 40 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 2: actually see them not quite real life, you know, it's 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: sort of like at least you get us a better 42 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: sense on what they look like. But also as good 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: as these these wax replicas are, you can still see 44 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: well that's not quite right, you know, there is some 45 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: minor differences, you know, but it is it's interesting for sure. 46 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: Well, the funny story about this is is that I 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: have a book that's going to come out in January, 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: January seventh, and it's called The Sinner's All Bell, And 49 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: we can talk about this, you know, at a later episode. 50 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: But the book features the story of a young woman 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: who was a personer at a Methodist and she is 52 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: found hanging from a haystack poll in New England in 53 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties. So a very famous author years later 54 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: is at a wax museum in Boston, and it is 55 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: a wax museum that is featuring several different true crime 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: contemporary for them eighteen thirties eighteen forties true crime stories. 57 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: One of them is the story we're going to talk 58 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: about Helen Jewett. The other is the story from The 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: Sinner's All Bow, my book, and I'll just tell you 60 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: it's Nathaniel Hawthorne who wrote The Scarlet Letter, and the 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: woman at the center of my book is believed to 62 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: be his inspiration for Hester Prynne, the main character in 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: The Scarlet Letter, and his comments, Nathaniel Hawthorne's comments about 64 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: the way that the supposed killer and the victim we're 65 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: standing near each other. It's very clear that the way 66 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: that whomever was in charge of the wax Museum had 67 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: him sort of hover over her in a very menacing way. 68 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: So it wasn't just someone standing there in a pose. 69 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: They were kind of staging people in different action poses. 70 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm not going to the case is complicated. 71 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give away what happens in the case. 72 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: But I think Nathaniel Hawthorne really looked at this and said, well, 73 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: it's very clear that he's guilty, and it's the way 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: that the wax Museum owner staged it. It was very influential, 75 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: and you're right that three D feeling makes people feel 76 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: like they're right there and it can really shift opinions 77 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: about stories. 78 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: This was very popular well, and I find it fascinating 79 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: that all the way back in the eighteen thirties and 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: eighteen forties is that the wax Museum was paying attention 81 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: to true crime. 82 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: I know, Oh yeah, Well, Nathaniel Hawthorne and Edgar Allan 83 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: Poe were crazy about true crime stories. They both went 84 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: to trials, they both read all the newspaper accounts of 85 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: all types of different stories. And there are stories that 86 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: we talk about in this show that inspire you know 87 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: true crime stories like we just talked about, Remember the 88 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: story of Mary Rogers, the woman who went missing from 89 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: her boarding house, a cigar girl, a woman who worked 90 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: at the scar shop and then labor. She was rumored 91 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: to have died from a failed abortion, and so you know, 92 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: these are the kinds of stories that these authors really 93 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: picked up on. So it's interesting to you know, you're 94 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: at this sort of attraction and you're getting all of 95 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: this information and it's really framing these stories in a 96 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: certain way. And the story that we're going to talk 97 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: about was a huge story in Manhattan in the eighteen thirties, 98 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: and anybody who is a history true crime geek might 99 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 1: know the story of Helen Jewett. So get ready, because 100 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: talk about somebody who's been exposed to a lot of 101 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: different types of people. We are really going to be 102 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: right in the middle of Manhattan, which is now the 103 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: area is known as Tribeca, but we're right in the 104 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: middle of it. So let's go ahead and set the scene. 105 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: So this is eighteen thirty six, a very cold night 106 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: in April. You know, this is kind of the end 107 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: of a very cold winter in New York. I had 108 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: mentioned before that we are in an area on Thomas 109 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: Street which is now known as Tribeca, and we are 110 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 1: at a well known brothel. When I wrote my book 111 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: about Edward Ruloff, which was set around this time period, 112 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: there was a book that I quoted a little bit 113 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: called The Gentleman's Guide to Manhattan and it was a 114 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: no joke paul a Rundown of eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies brothels, 115 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: almost like what you would get on Yelp, like the 116 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: two dollar signs, the three dollars signs, the different people 117 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: that were recommended, who work there, what block to go 118 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: on to, what not. It was written in a very 119 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: civilized kind of like shopping for someone, and they would 120 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: talk about, you know, brothels where the women would steal 121 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: from you, brothels where they wouldn't, where you could feel 122 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: safe where you know, I mean it it's called The 123 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: Gentleman's Guide to New York and I thought, that's, I guess, 124 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: good advice for people I don't know. 125 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: That still goes on to this day. You know. 126 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: So like when I was investigating, you know, unsolved series 127 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: of sex workers. They're on the street, they're in stroll areas, 128 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: and so of course I'm looking to see what the 129 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: johns are saying about the locations, if there is anybody 130 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: that would pop up as a suspect. And these johns 131 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: are doing the exact same thing. They're saying, Hey, look 132 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: for so and so. She's usually dressed like this, She'll 133 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: do this, this, and this for this amount of money. 134 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: She's you know, and gives ratings on the women. Or 135 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: they will get online and say, hey, it looks like 136 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: there's a visting going on. Avoid this area. So they swap. 137 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: They swap information to help each other out. 138 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: That doesn't have anything to do with our case. This 139 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: Gentleman's Handbook. I just remember thinking it was really interesting, 140 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, that you could get this thing for like 141 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: five cents or something like that and have a pretty 142 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: decent rundown of what was happening in New York. This 143 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: is a brothel and it is run by a woman 144 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: named Rosina Townsend. She's thirty nine, she's a madam, and 145 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: she has a very very tight security system. She knows 146 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: how to run this place. I'm sure she's encountered every 147 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: kind of man, gentleman and not in this brothel over 148 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,719 Speaker 1: the years. And she has several sex workers who work there. 149 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: Live there, and she has a lot of systems in 150 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: place that I think are pretty interesting. So this is 151 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 1: what happens. Rosina is awoken on April tenth, eighteen thirty six, 152 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: this cold day, She's awoken in the very early hours 153 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: of the morning to a knock at her bedroom door. 154 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: She opens the door and there's a man who says, 155 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: we presume as a client, who says, I need to 156 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: get out of the brothel. So what happened is she 157 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: had a front door that was locked both from the 158 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: inside and the outside, and after midnight, Rosina would lock 159 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 1: both sides, so if you wanted to get out as 160 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: a client or as a sex worker, you would have 161 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: to talk to her. She's the only one who had 162 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: the key, and she would unlock it and let you 163 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: out for security purposes. She won't give him the key. 164 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: She says, go get your woman to let you out. 165 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: So he says, okay. She shuts the door, but none 166 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: of the sex workers come to her door to say, 167 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 1: you know, where's the key, So she would loan the 168 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: key out. They would unlock the door for the client 169 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: and then give the key back. No one comes to 170 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: her door, so she sort of just blew it off, 171 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: and maybe I assumed that thought that he went back 172 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: to the woman he was with. A few hours later, 173 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: she's awoken by a much louder knocking at the front door, 174 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: this time, not her bedroom door or any of the 175 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: doors of the nine women who lived there. At the 176 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: front door, she's sleeping next to a man. He wakes 177 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: up and they both look at the clock on the 178 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,599 Speaker 1: mantel and it's three o'clock in the morning. This is 179 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: a different client who has made a pre arranged appointment 180 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: at three in the morning with one of the women. 181 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: So Rozina says okay and lets him in. And when 182 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: she does, she looks around and notices there's a gas 183 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: lamp that's out of place. It's lit. It's sitting on 184 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the table on the first floor parlor. It's not supposed 185 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: to be there. It's actually supposed to be upstairs on 186 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: the second floor, in one of the bedrooms. And she 187 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: thinks this is odd. I mean, this woman is on 188 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: top of stuff. She understands how to run this place. 189 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: So she takes the lamp and she goes to the 190 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: parlor and when she's kind of walking back there, she 191 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: looks at the back of the building and she sees 192 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: that the door to the backyard is unlocked. So this 193 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: is a door that has a latch, doesn't have a 194 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: key lock on it, and anyone can get out from 195 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: the inside anytime they want. I don't think most of 196 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: the client the men know about this, But if you 197 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: know about this door, you can go down and unlatch 198 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: the door and go out the back door, which is 199 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: where the yard is, and then there's an outhouse. So 200 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: she thinks the sex worker who was with the first 201 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: man who wanted out of the building, she thinks that 202 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: the woman said to him, just go down the back 203 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: way and unlatch it yourself, and that's how he went out. 204 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: So do you have anything you need to say? I 205 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: have another about half a page of information here. There's 206 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: a lot of that told you there's a lot going on. 207 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: We don't even have a death yet. 208 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: No. 209 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: Right now, it's just sort of what sounds like routine 210 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: happenings every night, except you've got this light that has 211 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: been noticed out of place. So we'll see where you 212 00:11:59,320 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: go from here. 213 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: So she looks out into the backyard. It's like I said, 214 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: three in the morning. This is the way the backyard 215 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: is set up. It's completely fenced in, and the fence 216 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: varies from like eight feet to twelve feet tall, and 217 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 1: on one side the neighbor's stable horse stable backs up 218 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: to the fence, and that part of the fence has 219 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: pickets to prevent anyone from climbing onto it from the 220 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: stable roof. And this is considered pretty tight security. So 221 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: they don't want men hopping in and hopping out of 222 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: this yard. They want to know who's there the whole time. 223 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: It's very very high fencing. There's an outhouse in the yard, 224 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: and so you know, Rosina is thinking, okay, well, maybe 225 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: the guy went out to use it, or one of 226 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: the women maybe, and that's why the latch was off 227 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: on this back door. But she said that doesn't make 228 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: any sense because it's a really cold, nasty, drizzly night, 229 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: and everybody has a chamber plot gross in their room, 230 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: so you know, Rosina is really trying to figure out 231 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: what exactly happened. She says that she calls out who's 232 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: there in the backyard a few times, nobody answers. She 233 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: goes upstairs and she's trying to figure out which bedroom 234 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: the lamp is missing from. She goes to the first 235 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: bedroom upstairs and the door is locked, which means there's 236 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: a woman who wants privacy with a client. She goes 237 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: to the other bedroom, which belongs to the woman we're 238 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: going to be talking about, Helen Juitt. The door swings open, 239 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: it's not locked, and we have it sounds like a fire. 240 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: There are thick plumes of smoke coming out of the room. 241 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: She yells fire and runs down to her bedroom which 242 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: faces the street on the first floor, and yells fire 243 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: out the window. And there's a watchman. There's no organized 244 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: police in New York in the eighteen thirties, just sort 245 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: of like night watchman. Watchman is posted nearby. Here's her, 246 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: and everybody has now woken up in the whole house 247 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: because people are yelling fire. Can pause here because I 248 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: will tell you as a spoiler alert, Helen will be 249 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: found dead inside this room. And we have a similar 250 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: story that we've talked about, a similar type of setup. 251 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: You know, someone is murdered and someone is using fire 252 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: to try to cover it up. 253 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and this is of course I've had 254 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 2: cases with burning bodies or crime scenes that have been burned, 255 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: you know, And it is it's a tough, tough type 256 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: of case to work because fire can be so destructive. 257 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: The case that you and I talked about before, I 258 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: think you remember Albert Tarell, the man who was in 259 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: a relationship with a woman named Marianne Bickford, who was 260 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of an on again off against sex worker. He 261 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: kills her and then tries to set the whole you know, 262 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: aira on fire and then claims he was sleepwalking. There 263 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: is some speculation that this is where Albert Trell got 264 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the idea from. Was this story to be able to 265 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: kind of commit his crime to you know, murder this 266 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: woman and then set the place on fire. That seems 267 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: a little far fetched. I don't think it's a genius. 268 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: It takes a genius to think if you're going to 269 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: kill someone, maybe a fire would be helpful. We've talked 270 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: about this before, I think, right, do you really believe 271 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: that killers are inspired by other killers pick up tips 272 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: from other killers? 273 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: Oh? 274 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I've seen it firsthand. 275 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: I've got Phil Hughes following the Hillside stranglers, and Hughes 276 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 2: himself was a strangler. 277 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: Like picking up tips or what happens? Do you think 278 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: they're just inspired? 279 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 3: Well, it's both. 280 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: You know, they're of course, paying attention to how other 281 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 2: killers are getting away with their crimes, you know, how 282 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: details about the crimes are being reported in the press, 283 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: how law enforcement is you know, trying to you know. 284 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: Work to solve the case. 285 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: But then they also get inspired to try the various 286 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: different things that these other killers are doing, just to 287 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: see if they like it. So, you know, it's it's 288 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: a different psychology. 289 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Well let's get back to the case. So the night 290 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: watchmen sound the alarm on the fire, and I don't 291 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: think it's enough of a fire to cause major damage 292 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: because they are able to go back up into the room. 293 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: Because Rosina is very concerned about Helen Jewett, so she 294 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: is afraid that Helen and her companion are going to 295 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: die of smoke in elation, so they go up to 296 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: try to rescue her. It's Rosina and a woman named 297 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: Maria Stevens, and they go up and they find Helen 298 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: with no male client with her. So when the night 299 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: watchmen get to the house and they find out that 300 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: Helen has been killed, they try to you know, get 301 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: together their resources and get some more officers. They also 302 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: call the corner and a corner brings two doctors to 303 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: the house and they start to examine her body. So 304 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: the fires out. It doesn't look like it really did 305 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: any damage. It did not do what I'm assuming the 306 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: killer thought it was going to do. And I told 307 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: you I talked to a friend a chemists who said 308 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: it often does not do what a killer hopes it 309 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: will do. You know, it's hard to predict whether or 310 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: not it's going to work or not, and it's risky. 311 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: I would not have thought fire would be risky, but 312 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: she said, it just doesn't behave the way you want 313 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: it to behave a lot of times. 314 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: It goes where it wants to go, you know. And 315 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: there's so many different factors within any environment. You know 316 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: where the fuel source is, you know where the oxygen 317 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: supply is. Unless you have literally a body doused with 318 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: gasoline and lit directly on fire, if you're just trying 319 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: to set a fire inside a room, it's not necessarily 320 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: going to consume everything in that room right off the 321 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 2: bat or if at all. You know, that's it really 322 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: takes a level of expertise to kind of understand how 323 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: to set a fire in order to completely obliterate a room, 324 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 2: accounting for all the various different types of variables that 325 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: are within that particular scene. 326 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: And it attracts people, maybe sooner than the killer would 327 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: have wanted, certainly sooner than if he had covered it up. 328 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: I mean, this is probably several hours at the very most, 329 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: I would assume, because you know, there's a. 330 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: Fire, sure, you know, and sometimes a fire will just smolder, 331 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: you know. And now you have a fair amount of 332 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: heat and smoke present within the room, and you can 333 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: get these flashover points where the heat gets it gets 334 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 2: hot enough inside the room where the other flammables inside 335 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: the room just instantaneously will light, and now they've accomplished 336 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: what they wanted to do. 337 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: But it can smolder for hours. 338 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: This fire does no good to the killer, it sounds like. 339 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: Because they are able to obviously identify her, they're able 340 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: to look at her body and determine how she died 341 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: and get some pretty good details. So, as I said, 342 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: the corner brings two doctors to the house. They examine 343 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: Helen's body. She is twenty four years old, and I'll 344 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about her in a second. 345 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: But I now know the most important thing for you, 346 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 1: you big smile on your face, The most important thing 347 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: to you is to talk about the injuries and the 348 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: autopsy and the examination first, and then we can get 349 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: to all the you know, victimology stuff. 350 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 3: Right. 351 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: Yes, there you go, see, I know you It only 352 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: took about what a year and a half, maybe two years. 353 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: I'm getting there, Okay. The doctors say they found a large, 354 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: deep gash on the right side of her head above 355 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: the temple that was likely made by a hatchet, so 356 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like they found the murder weapon. The 357 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: gash goes through the skull into the brain, and they 358 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: perform an autopsy and find that she was they say, 359 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: mostly healthy, though they find evidence. Now I don't know 360 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: what this means, Paul. They find evidence that her uterus 361 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: had been quote laboring under an old disease. Does that 362 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: sound like maybe of an aerial disease or something of 363 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: venereal infection. 364 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure, or endometriosis, you know, something like that. 365 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. But she's not pregnant and they're 366 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,400 Speaker 1: not seeing anything else, and obviously they know the cause 367 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: of death. She's been hitting the head by what they 368 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: think is a hatchet and the gash goes through her 369 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: skull into her brain, and I know that you'll say 370 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: that it doesn't take very much to do that, right 371 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: with a hatchet. I'm assuming like this could be a woman, 372 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: this could be anybody. 373 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: Oh sure, it doesn't provide enough information to indicate, you know, 374 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: how strong or robust the offender is. It's just, you know, 375 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: a hatchet is a very effective weapon, you know, And 376 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: you know I've seen cases with hatcheting deaths, and you 377 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 2: see where the sharp edge of the hatchet will go 378 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: through the skull, just like what we're seeing here in 379 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: Helen's case. 380 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you more about Helen little victimology 381 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: stuff here. So she was twenty four years old, as 382 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: I said, when she died. She came from Halliwell, Maine, 383 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: and her birth name was Dorcas Duncan. I love Dorcas. 384 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: That is like a totally old fashioned to me, eighteen 385 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: hundreds name that I've read quite a bit. She was 386 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: known as a local beauty. Of course we hear that 387 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: all the time. Her parents died when she was young 388 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: and she was adopted by a local judge. But when 389 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: she was seventeen, she had what the newspapers would later 390 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: describe as a quote unquote affair with a local prominent banker, 391 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: which at seventeen, I'm not sure we could define that 392 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: as an affair at all, because this is a grown man. 393 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: This caused a huge uproar in her community, and I'm 394 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: sure that people blamed her to a certain extent, because 395 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: that's what they would have done in the eighteen hundreds. 396 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: She changed her name from Dorcas Duncan to Helen Jewett, 397 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: and she moved to New York and she had no 398 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 1: other resources, so she became a sex worker. 399 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: Okay, and now she's in the brothel and she's dead 400 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: with a hatchet wound, and the offender has tried to 401 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 2: set the room on fire. Now do you know, would 402 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 2: Helen have kept any amount of. 403 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: The proceeds from the clients within the room? 404 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: Like? 405 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 3: Could there be a financial motive to this crime? 406 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: It didn't sound like it was like a theft thing, 407 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: because I think Rosina would have known that. 408 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 3: Yes. 409 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: One thing they don't talk about also is whether or 410 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: not this hatchet was brought to the scene or if 411 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: it was something that the killer had found at the house. 412 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: So I don't think that robbery is the motive, is 413 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 1: the very long answer to that. Okay, let me tell 414 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: you about what they know about that day. So the 415 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: night before her body was discovered was a Friday, and 416 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: on most Fridays, Helen had a regular client. I mean, 417 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: these are some fake names. His name was Bill Easy, 418 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: fake name. However, on this day, she asked Rosina to 419 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: not let Bill into the brothel and to reschedule him 420 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: because she said she had another date, another person coming. 421 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: So Rosina lets in a man later that night wearing 422 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: a long black cloak, and his name, also a fake name, 423 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: was Frank Rivers. You would think people could be more creative, 424 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: but I guess, I guess they need to be able 425 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: to remember it, right, if it's their fake name. 426 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: That's right. 427 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: He had been covering his face with his cloak so 428 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: nobody could see what he looked like. But you know, Rosina, 429 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: who is just as sharp as attack, made sure that 430 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: she at least could look at his height, listen to 431 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: his voice, pick out details. And she said that was 432 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 1: not Bill Easy. This was a different guy. This was 433 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: not her normal guy, based on everything that she remembers. 434 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: So this guy comes. Frank Rivers comes between nine o'clock 435 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: and ten o'clock. Then about eleven o'clock Helen called down 436 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: for a bottle of champagne, which apparently Rosina had on hand. 437 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: She brought up the bottle and two glasses, and she 438 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: saw the guy, the mystery guy, but only the back 439 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: of his head because he was laying on her bed 440 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: reading a book. Now we are caught up. We have 441 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: no suspect except the guy who provided a fake name. 442 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 1: The only person, the only person who saw him was 443 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: the Madam Rosina, which I know you can imagine is 444 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: at some point going to cause a problem. This is 445 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: the only witness in what she does for a living. 446 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: So what's your impression so far? 447 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 2: So Rosina saying. When she looks into the room in 448 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: Helen's room, she sees this Frank Rivers, laying on Helen's 449 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 2: bed reading a book. 450 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: He must be on his side because she can only 451 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: see the back of his head. 452 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: Okay, this seems like an unusual thing to be doing 453 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: when you've gone to a brothel to hire a sex worker. 454 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, maybe that's what he was doing. Fundamentally, none 455 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: of the other women in the brothel see Frank Rivers. 456 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: It's just Rosina and Helen, and Helen is dead. 457 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: Yep, you got it. 458 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: Of course, I can. 459 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: See where this possibly is going to go is, did 460 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: Rosina have any issues with Helen, not. 461 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: That we know of. 462 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 3: No. 463 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 1: She seemed like a wonderful person to work for, it 464 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: sounds like, and that's what the other women said, well organized, 465 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: good security, all of that. We don't know of any 466 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: problems between them, and she was very upset about obviously 467 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: what happened with Helen. 468 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, obviously it'd be nice to have other people 469 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: corroborate Rosina's story of Frank Rivers being present within Helen's room. 470 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 2: And Rosina is the one that's reporting the slamp that's 471 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: moved out of place, as well as the back door 472 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 2: being unlatched, so she's kind of controlling all the information 473 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: flow in this investigation. 474 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: So the night watchmen, remember who are not trained police necessarily, 475 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: the night watchmen spread out and they start trying to 476 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: figure out who murdered this woman, this young sex worker. 477 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: To their credit, I would say that this was not 478 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: a time when police would have necessarily been enthusiastic about 479 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: doing this, but they did. And as the story goes along, 480 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: you see, of course, an interesting divide between people who 481 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: were supportive of the sex workers and this was a 482 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: tragedy and the people who thought well, you know, they're 483 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: putting themselves in this position, and of course we see 484 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: that today with the media. So the night watchmen are 485 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 1: going out and they look in the neighborhood and they 486 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: find out that there is a guy named Richard Robinson. 487 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: Richard Robinson lives in a boarding house nearby. And when 488 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: I say boarding house, I know it sounds like a flophouse. 489 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: They're not. Sometimes they're very nice. I mean, you can 490 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: have a nice boarding house. It doesn't have to be 491 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: some rancid place. And he is living nearby. At some point, 492 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: Rosina sees him and says, this is the guy. This 493 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: is Frank Rivers, Richard Robinson. He's nineteen years old. And 494 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: of course he says, you're nuts. I had nothing to 495 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: do with this. So this is haphazard. I would say, 496 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: at best, they kind of run into this guy. He's 497 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: known to have a long black jacket coat. Rosina then 498 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 1: season and says, yep, that's him, never having actually seen 499 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: this guy's face before. 500 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was what I was going to point out. 501 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 2: He comes in with this cloak wrapped around his face. 502 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 2: He only sees the back of his head when he's 503 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 2: laying on Helen's bed, you know, so that ID is 504 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: really weak this case. 505 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, you know, the struggle is real for 506 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: investigators in the nineteen hundreds. I will read these stories 507 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: sometimes and I'll just think, gosh, to be a detective 508 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: in the eighteen you know, in the eighteen nineties, even 509 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: when there were detectives, it's just sounds awful. I don't know, 510 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: unless you just run across a murder as it's happening, 511 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: I don't know how they were able to really solve 512 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: these I do know the third degree. You know, they 513 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: would harass people. They would have informants who probably were 514 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: not very accurate, certainly witnesses that were not accurate. But 515 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: this sounds like a nightmare of a case in a 516 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: big city with a lot of pressure on people to 517 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: solve it. 518 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 3: Oh sure, you know. And this is where I mean. 519 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 2: There are investigators that are so good at reading people 520 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: and doing interviews and stitching together circumstantial cases. But even 521 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: the best investigators could potentially just relying on circumstantial evidence 522 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 2: be wrong. Our limitations as humans is, you know, we 523 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 2: kind of add things together and think, oh, this must 524 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: be it. And in my experience, I've done that myself, 525 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 2: and then had physical evidence go Nope, you're wrong. 526 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I like hearing you say that, and I 527 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: will say, Paul, you know I've said this before. One 528 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: of your superpowers again is you're I think, humble, and 529 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: you're aware of your limitations, and you know when to 530 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: call people, and you, certainly on our show, know when 531 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: to say this is not my jam. I don't know 532 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: anything about botanical toxicology or whatever it is. I have 533 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: told people in interviews before that. With American Sherlock, I 534 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: read two to three thousand of Oscar Heinrich's letters and 535 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: not once did he say maybe I was wrong, you know, 536 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: when they were released and he had had them essentially convicted. 537 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: I mean, he never doubted himself. And I just think 538 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: that's such a problem, A big problem. I think you 539 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: have to think about when new information comes out, Man, 540 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: I might have screwed this up. And there's so much 541 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: responsibility on somebody like you, especially you're doing these active cases. 542 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: Now you know there's a lot of responsibility on your 543 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: shoulders with these cases. 544 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know the cases, they're the ultimate challenge. 545 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 3: They're very humbling. 546 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: I often would go into a case with an ego 547 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: thinking and I can solve this and then as time 548 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 2: goes on, recognizing oh, you know it's it's just you 549 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: have to stay humble. You constantly have to assess the 550 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: information and hope that you know your efforts ultimately pay 551 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: off with a solid case in one way or the other. 552 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: Well, the people investigating this case have a lot to 553 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: deal with because when the media gets involved, like I said, 554 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: it's pretty polarizing. So who they're targeting. Richard Robinson? Who 555 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: is this nineteen year old He is a clerk for 556 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: a prominent cloth merchant, and he's the son of a 557 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: relatively wealthy landowner and a politician from outside New Haven, Connecticut, 558 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: So lots of money. Remember I said boarding houses. I 559 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: know it sounds like they're not the greatest place, but 560 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: it's a flat with a bunch of other people, and 561 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: they can be nice and expensive. So Richard is from 562 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: a good family, he's from that neighborhood. And I'm already 563 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: sensing a pretty bad dynamic here that we've also heard 564 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: about in the past. A client with a wealthy family 565 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: or a potential offender from a wealthy family and a 566 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: sex worker who will be easily dismissed as a victim. 567 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: Most likely based on her profession. And then of course 568 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: our main witness, who is a madam. So this is 569 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: a familiar story over and over again. You know who 570 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: gets justice in this country. 571 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can see where this is. This is going 572 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,239 Speaker 2: to be heading now. A lot of this is going 573 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: to end up being dependent upon the prosecutor. And can 574 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: you know what kind of political influence does the Robinson 575 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: family have on the prosecutor or is the prosecutor independent? 576 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: That's a tough dynamic when you have this disparity, if 577 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: you will, on the defendant versus the victims and the 578 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: social status or the perceisd social status that they have. 579 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: Well, let me give you some information that will shine 580 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: a light on eighteen hundreds and before Manhattan. So number one, 581 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: the police say, okay, this sounds like Rosina. The madam 582 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: says that Richard is the guy. Let's go pick him up. 583 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: So they go to his boarding house to see what's 584 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: going on with him, to interview him, you know, just 585 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: to get more information. I'm sure they don't want to 586 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: rely specifically on Rosina. And they get there and he 587 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: is asleep. His roommate answers the door. He wakes up 588 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: Richard and Richard pulls on a pair of pants that 589 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: have a stain that looks like white paint or whitewash 590 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: on his pants, and detectives make a mental note of that. 591 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: So this is the quirky part of policing in the 592 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, Instead of taking him down to the police station, 593 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: they decide to do a little bit of a gotcha 594 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: thing with Richard. They take him to the brothel. So 595 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: the custom of the time in the sixteen hundreds a 596 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: couple hundred years earlier, was that it was a superstition. 597 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: If you bring a murderer to the scene of the 598 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: crime and you make him touch the victim, the victim 599 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: will bleed fresh blood, and that is damning. I know 600 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: you're smiling, and that is very damning. And I told 601 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: you that in my tenfold more Wicked. They believed that 602 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: somebody who bled after they died, or had any sort 603 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: of bodily fluid come out, that it was a sign 604 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: that they were possessed by the devil. So I'm getting 605 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: mixed messages here, but essentially, the body of a victim 606 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: could really tell you a lot. They could, in this 607 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: case point to the identity of the murderer. Are you 608 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: going to debunk this. I'm assuming you will do I 609 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: even have to debunk it. Definitely not the possessed by 610 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: the double part. I think we're okay. 611 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 2: You know how many bodies I've touched and they bled 612 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: after they bled? You move a body and then you 613 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: start getting you know, bleeding out of bullet injuries or 614 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: knife stab wounds. 615 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 3: You know, it's just nap. This is silly. 616 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: Well, I will say, in the eighteen hundreds, they don't 617 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: believe that anymore. Thank goodness, we've progressed from the sixteen 618 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 1: hundreds to the eighteen hundreds. They do use it as 619 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: a little bit of a like I like to think 620 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: of it as a light detector. They did this with 621 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: Edward rule off too. So they bring Richard down and 622 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: they show him Helen's body and they're looking for a reaction. 623 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: That's all they want to know. And they feel like 624 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: they can really read whether he is guilty or innocent 625 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: based on his reaction to seeing her body. So or 626 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: sees they're going to the brothel, and they said that 627 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: his face goes pale, but when he sees her body, nothing, 628 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: no reaction whatsoever, just sort of like nothing's there. And 629 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: that was it, I assuming you're gonna say that you 630 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: cannot obviously predict based on someone's reaction. I see this 631 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: on the movies all the time, where they'll show the 632 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: potential offender the suspect photos of the body to see 633 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: what the reaction is. Is that a common Is that 634 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: a real tool that police officers use? 635 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 2: Well, they shouldn't, because you know, if you're displaying aspects 636 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: of the crime scene to your suspect, how do you 637 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 2: know when the suspects starts providing certain details. Did they 638 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 2: acquire those details based on what they've seen like they're 639 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 2: Now let's say you have somebody who's falsely confessing or 640 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: are they purposely altering their statements because now they know 641 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: what they're perceiving happened at the crime scene. You know, 642 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,240 Speaker 2: you really don't want to have that type of contamination, 643 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: you know. So with with Richard Robinson, I put no 644 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 2: weight on his reactions. You know, he's he's recognizing when 645 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 2: he's being brought to the brothel. Uh, oh, I'm under 646 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,959 Speaker 2: suspicion here, right, you know, and that could be part 647 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: of the reason for his uh not appearing to be 648 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: in good shape en route, And then you never know 649 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 2: how somebody's going to react when they're taking a look 650 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: at a dead body. So it just underscores that these 651 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 2: investigators really don't know what they're doing. 652 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: And one of the issues is that Richard doesn't deny 653 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: that he's been at the brothel. In fact, he and 654 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: his roommate had been at the brothel. So you know, 655 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: he says, yes, I was there, and let me tell 656 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: you what he says. So Richard says he was home 657 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: just after eleven o'clock that night, and you know, another 658 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: brothel owner comes over and says, Richard, how could you 659 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: kill this poor woman? And he says, I didn't do anything. 660 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: And then he says, maybe the madam did it. Just 661 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: what you said, maybe the madam did it. But he 662 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: denies doing anything, and he says, in fact, Helen has 663 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: a handkerchief with another guy's name under her pillow, which 664 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: she did. So you know, he's placing himself there. He's 665 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: saying I was there, but he's not admitting, obviously to 666 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: killing her. There's a corner's inquest. The jury is made 667 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: up from people. This is funny. The jury is made 668 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: up of people from the crowd. Whoever shows up first. 669 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: It gets to be in the corner's jury. It sounds like, 670 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what they did in the eighteen och 671 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: they were just pulling people off the street, anybody, anybody. 672 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: I mean, in the case of my book and the 673 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: Center's all about the corner's inquest, the only restriction or 674 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: the only guide, was they had to be a landowner. 675 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: That was it okay to be on a corner's jury. 676 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: You just had to be a landowner and that was it. 677 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: They considered that meant you were a gentleman, or you 678 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: were an upstanding citizen, and that's all that was required 679 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: of it, and that's it. So the jury sits, the 680 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: corner starts bringing information to the jury. Richard's roommate goes 681 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: to the jury and says, yeah, we had been at 682 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: the brothel the night before. He thinks that Richard came 683 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: home around ten o'clock, he said, but I'm not one 684 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: hundred percent sure. And then when he thinks about it, 685 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: he says, well, maybe it was more like one am, 686 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: even though Richard says it was eleven PM. So it 687 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: sounds like the roommate comes home first and then Richard 688 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: comes home later. But because the roommate was asleep, he 689 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: couldn't really quite figure out how late it was. And 690 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: of course, you know there's no cell phones or watches. 691 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: Well there's watches, but nobody's wearing a watch at night, 692 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: so you have to kind of squint and look at 693 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,360 Speaker 1: the clock, probably on the mantle. I think you have 694 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: to be pretty motivated to see what the time is. 695 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that the roommate was that motivated. 696 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 1: He just heard Richard come in late, so I don't 697 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: know about this alibi. And he puts himself there, So 698 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: what do you think about that? I mean, you still 699 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: have to prove that he was the one holding the hatchet. 700 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So does he put himself with Helen that night 701 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 2: before she's killed? 702 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 3: I'm kind of confused on that he does. 703 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,800 Speaker 1: So he says, yes, I was there, but I left 704 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: and she was alive, and the madam probably did it, 705 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: or the man whose name is etched on a handkerchief 706 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 1: under her pillow. 707 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 2: Rosina picked Richard out, Richard Robinson out as being Frank Rivers. Right, yep, 708 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 2: Robinson is placing him there with Helen that night. 709 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 3: You know, it's just one. 710 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 2: Little detail where it makes you just kind of stop 711 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 2: and go, Okay, Richard Robinson potentially had an opportunity to 712 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 2: have been involved with Helen's homicide. There seems to be 713 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 2: some looseness with the time frame that the roommate is 714 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 2: saying that Robinson came. 715 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 3: Home, you know. 716 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 2: But all it does is it just from just an 717 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 2: assessment of Robinson, It's like, well, he's in play, but 718 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,280 Speaker 2: it definitely does not prove that he's responsible for Helen's homicide. 719 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 3: Nowhere near that at this point in time. 720 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: So they turned to the cloak the prosecutors that Rosina 721 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: said Frank Rivers was wearing, and they find this cloak 722 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,319 Speaker 1: kind of in a neighbor's yard, and he denies, this 723 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,520 Speaker 1: is my cloak, but with some prodding, the roommate says, yes, 724 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: Richard had worn that cloak. Then they turned to the 725 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: pants that the detective saw him wearing. The corner's inquest 726 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 1: finds that one of the fences that Richard would have 727 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: had to climb to get out of the yard if 728 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: he were the killer, was whitewashed, which is where those 729 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,400 Speaker 1: stains on his pants came from. And this seems to 730 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,280 Speaker 1: be enough Paul for the corner's jury to charge Richard 731 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: with her murder. That's not a lot. 732 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 3: No, it's not a lot. You know. 733 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: Part of it this cloak being found, you know, this 734 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,919 Speaker 2: is where now that kind of diminishes my initial thought 735 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 2: of Rosina. 736 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,280 Speaker 3: You know, unless she planted this. 737 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 2: Cloak, maybe she is telling the truth about Frank River 738 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 2: showing up with the cloak, you know, And I guess 739 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 2: it's you know, how common is this type of cloak 740 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 2: during this era? You know, That's what I would want 741 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 2: to know. Is this just going to be I mean, 742 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,720 Speaker 2: we see like hoodies all over the place on the ground, 743 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 2: you know, but doesn't mean that that hoodie was used 744 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 2: by the offender in any particular case today. It's just 745 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 2: it's a common item out there. But I don't know, 746 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 2: you know, I think there isn't a case against Robinson 747 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 2: at this point, you know, the whitewash thing. No, the cloak, 748 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 2: they can't even really prove that it's his. You know, 749 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 2: it's just you've got the roommates saying, yeah, it looks 750 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: like a cloak that he had, But let's see what 751 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 2: else they develop. 752 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: Well, and you know, you're talking about nine women in 753 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: this house, plus Rosina the madam, and they have men 754 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: coming in and out. She has regulars. I mean, there's 755 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: just a lot of things happening here. So even if 756 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: it is Frank Rivers, whether it's Robin or not, if 757 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: there is this Frank Rivers and he's wearing this cloak 758 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: and he jumps over a fence and it's whitewashed, and 759 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: all of this stuff comes together, it still doesn't put 760 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: the hatchet in his hand, you know. It just proves 761 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: that he had sex with her. Or maybe they didn't 762 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: even have sex. Maybe they were just you know, drinking 763 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: champagne and reading. We don't know, and that's one of 764 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: the issues with this case. So it becomes what many 765 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 1: people have called I've heard this a million times, but 766 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, the first public sex scandal. I'm pretty sure 767 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: there were big sex scandals in the seventeen hundreds too, 768 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: but this is this is a tabloid sex scandal in 769 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: New York. It's a huge amount of interest. As I 770 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: told you, you know, Nathaniel Hawthorne also wrote about that 771 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 1: case of Helen Jewett in what he saw depicted in 772 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: the Wax Museum. The newspapers go crazy over this case 773 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: because she's attractive. There are all sorts of trial pamphlets printed, 774 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: and he is arrested for her murder. The corners in 775 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: quest found that he was likely responsible, so they arrest him. 776 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: This is a very polarizing case because there are, you know, 777 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: people who are obviously defending him he's from a really 778 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: well known, good family, and then attacking her because she's 779 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: a sex worker. And then there are, of course the opposite, 780 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: which is that he is this rogue who frequents sex 781 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: workers brothels, and you know, he's a disgusting person and 782 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: she didn't deserve to be killed. Now we have some 783 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: more information, and this is where I think the case 784 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: takes a little bit of a turn, and you could 785 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 1: tell me if this is enough. So you know, what 786 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,919 Speaker 1: we know so far is that he said he was there, 787 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: he said he was a client, he said he left, 788 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: she was alive. He has nothing to do with it. 789 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: They do some digging and the prosecutor comes up with 790 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: letters that Helen and Richard have written each other, because 791 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: it turns out that they had known each other for 792 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: almost a year and that he had either been a 793 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: regular client of hers or a relation relationship for her. 794 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: But it was very tumultuous. There were instances in the 795 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 1: letters that prosecutors picked up on where he admits that 796 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: he physically hurt her. And then the flip side of 797 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: that is they also exchanged portrait miniatures, which is a 798 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: huge deal. Those little miniatures, you know, that depict different 799 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: scenes that are incredibly expensive. And when Richard writes kind 800 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: of this final letter that says, I'm breaking up with 801 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: you your nuts, I want my miniature back, you know, this 802 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: becomes this big media frenzy. And they were reproducing the 803 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: pictures of the miniatures because they were collector's items at 804 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: this point. So that's kind of how big this case was. 805 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: But the big highlight here that I'm asking you about 806 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: is the letters, and you know how much we have 807 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: an established relationship between them. It sounds like he was 808 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: breaking up with her. He had admitted to being violent 809 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,720 Speaker 1: with her. Does the case get more solid with these. 810 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 2: Letters, Well, he gets more interesting as a suspect because 811 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,120 Speaker 2: now it appears that there may even be a motive 812 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 2: that's identified. You know, he's upset with her, he wants 813 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 2: his miniature back. Part of the question that I had 814 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,919 Speaker 2: is if he was a routine customer of Helen's over 815 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 2: the past year, how many times in the past that 816 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 2: he used the pseudonym of Frank Rivers. Then why does 817 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 2: he do it that night? Well, maybe he does it 818 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,280 Speaker 2: that night because he's trying to pose as somebody else 819 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:33,120 Speaker 2: and knowing that he's probably going to minimally rob Helen 820 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 2: of this miniature. And then if he's bringing a hatchet 821 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,879 Speaker 2: to the scene, he may have had bad intent from 822 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,279 Speaker 2: the very beginning. But I don't know, you know, he's 823 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 2: I think he's more interesting because of the prior relationship 824 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,240 Speaker 2: and the history of some level of physical violence against Helen. 825 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 3: It's still you. 826 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 2: Have to prove the case of homicide, and just this 827 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 2: prior relationship doesn't do that. It's just investigators need to 828 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 2: pay attention to him a little bit more. But as 829 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 2: of now, I still don't think that they've got a 830 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 2: case against Richard. 831 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 1: No. And it's interesting when you talk about the relationship, 832 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: whatever that was. If this was a regular boyfriend of hers, 833 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: not a client, but a regular boyfriend, you would think 834 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: that if Rosina knew him for a year, that she 835 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: would be able to recognize him, even like with his head, 836 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,759 Speaker 1: I would recognize you with your head, you know, turned 837 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: away from me. Probably, I don't know, maybe not, but 838 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,359 Speaker 1: I would think this might have been a relationship that 839 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: she kept very quiet, and maybe this is, you know, 840 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: one of the first times that he's visited the brothel before. 841 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, we don't have that much context. But 842 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,200 Speaker 1: the violent part of it I thought was interesting too. 843 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, but again it doesn't prove the homicide. 844 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: No, don't be picky, Paul. Two weeks after the murder, 845 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: Richard is sitting in jail and there's a grocer who 846 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,399 Speaker 1: comes over to see him and says, listen, I saw 847 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: a picture of you in the paper, and I think 848 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: you were in my store buying cigars that night. Richard agrees, 849 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: and eventually the grocer will testify, giving him kind of 850 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 1: a partial alibi, but certainly not for the whole night. 851 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 1: So the majority of Richard's defense is are you really 852 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: going to believe in Madam over Richard Robinson? And are 853 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: you really going to make this big of a fuss 854 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,760 Speaker 1: over a sex worker? That was pretty much the defense. 855 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,799 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, this is no surprise as 856 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: somebody who works in the eighteen hundreds all the time, 857 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: but it's still disgusting every time this comes up. The 858 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 1: misogyny of it, and just in general, you know, the 859 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: kind of the dismissiveness in the media, but also the 860 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: polarization of it, you know. I mean, these are two 861 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: people who turned into avatars for you know, specific parts 862 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: of society. It's hard to know if Helen Jewett at 863 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: this point is going to get any kind of justice 864 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,360 Speaker 1: or if Richard Robinson is responsible for anything. 865 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,840 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of flames that are fanned 866 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 2: by the media frenzy around this, you know. And I 867 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 2: can see what you're saying about the polarization, you know, 868 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,919 Speaker 2: but on both sides, you've got a woman who's lost 869 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 2: her life and now you've got this nineteen year old 870 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 2: Richard Robinson who sounds like he's being drug through the ringer. 871 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 2: And if he's responsible, so be it. But as of 872 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 2: right now, I'm questioning that. And also it's sort of like, Okay, 873 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,279 Speaker 2: where is this going to go? I'm kind of curious. 874 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: Well, we don't have very much longer, you know, the 875 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,839 Speaker 1: trial goes on. He has great defense attorneys who, as 876 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: I said, attack Helen's character, attack Rosina, the madam's character. 877 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,400 Speaker 1: The grocer is helpful with providing a partial alibi. And 878 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 1: really you've got sex workers who talk about Helen's relationship 879 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,080 Speaker 1: with Richard and saying that they knew him and they 880 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: had a tumultuous relationship. But as soon as they are called, 881 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: they're completely diminished, of course, because if they're bad character. 882 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: But you're right, there's not very much evidence here. I mean, 883 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: certainly Richard from the letter sounds like he's a jerk, 884 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: probably violent. Doesn't mean he killed her. So you know, 885 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 1: this is a fast trial. The jury goes and deliberates 886 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:20,160 Speaker 1: and they are gone for between eight and fifteen minutes. 887 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: Oh jeez, okay, yeah, and they say not guilty. And 888 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 1: that is that very weak, circumstantial case, even for the 889 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred's usually we get more than that, you know, 890 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: and this was a very very well known case because 891 00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: it was considered such a tragedy where you know, you 892 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: just didn't we didn't have enough information. But you know, 893 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,239 Speaker 1: on the other hand, it's almost like they felt like 894 00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: they couldn't get a foothold because of the status of 895 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: the people involved in the case, both the high and 896 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,560 Speaker 1: the lower status. 897 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:53,400 Speaker 3: Right, you know, And that's my concern. 898 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 2: I think, you know, they're not guilty verdict with the 899 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 2: information that was being you us, I can't argue against that. 900 00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 2: At all, you know, but for them to only deliberate 901 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 2: for eight to fifteen minutes, that suggests to me that 902 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,440 Speaker 2: probably the Robinson family influence was huge, you know, and 903 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 2: you'd like to see the jurors at least, you know, 904 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 2: really think about the case a little bit harder versus 905 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,680 Speaker 2: just dismissing Helen. You know, that's in essence what they did. 906 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: Definitely. Richard moves to Texas, he opens a saloon and 907 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: eventually becomes a deputy clerk of the court. And Helen 908 00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,879 Speaker 1: Jewett goes down in history as a sex worker who 909 00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: was murdered and kind of thrown away in the eyes 910 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:44,280 Speaker 1: of the media oftentimes, but then immortalized in a wax 911 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,919 Speaker 1: museum in Boston and seen by several different well known 912 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,160 Speaker 1: authors and probably they were inspired by her story. So 913 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,160 Speaker 1: I often think about that sort of scenario, like Sarah 914 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: Maria Cornell in my case, you know, a case that 915 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people had never heard of before, and 916 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: then I think about it. I pick up her story 917 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: and I think, this is why the story is important, 918 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people have done that 919 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: in Helen Jewett's case, in Mary Rogers case. You know, 920 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: these women in history who I had heard of. And 921 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: you've got these authors who want to write books, and 922 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, they credit the tragic story, but oftentimes the 923 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,759 Speaker 1: bravery of these women. There are circumstances limiting them, they're 924 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,839 Speaker 1: time periods limiting them and them doing the best they can, 925 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 1: and then they end up much more famous when they're 926 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 1: dead than when they were alive. 927 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:36,800 Speaker 3: No, for sure. 928 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 2: Fascinating to hear how this case ended up in the 929 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,840 Speaker 2: wax Museum and how it inspired you know, those authors. 930 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 3: I've never heard of it, you know, but but here 931 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 3: we go. You know, there's been books written because of 932 00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:49,720 Speaker 3: this case. 933 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: And I think when I write my books and do 934 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,359 Speaker 1: the podcast, when I think about the victims, who are 935 00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: most of the time women, you know, people know who've 936 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 1: read my books, most of the time they're women. And 937 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: I think that there is some element of bravery from 938 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,920 Speaker 1: the women in every book that I've done. Something has 939 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,920 Speaker 1: happened in their lives that they've overcome. And I think 940 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: it's important to shine a light on those kinds of stories, 941 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,879 Speaker 1: even when they in tragically. I think they're inspiring. And 942 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 1: you know, with Helen Jewett, she sounds like she was 943 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,399 Speaker 1: run out of town when she was young, and yeah, 944 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: seventeen year old seduced. It sounds like or manipulated or 945 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 1: assaulted by a grown man and drummed out of town 946 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: and taken on sex work and was just trying to 947 00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: do the best she could and then did not receive justice. 948 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,320 Speaker 1: But she has been immortalized in so many trial transcripts 949 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,879 Speaker 1: and just it's pretty incredible. So I'm happy to have 950 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,239 Speaker 1: told her story. I hadn't told her story yet, And 951 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad that you were available and interested in listening. 952 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 3: Paul No, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you, Kate. 953 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,720 Speaker 1: All right, well, we'll see you next week with another story. 954 00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:58,840 Speaker 3: Awesome, see you. 955 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our. 956 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com slash 957 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources. 958 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 959 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson. 960 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,080 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 961 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 962 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 963 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 964 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 965 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:34,880 Speaker 1: Baried Bones. 966 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 967 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 968 00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,080 Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now 969 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:46,680 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's 970 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,759 Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now