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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share.

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Speaker 2: She does an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 5: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 5: Don't welcome to trust Me?

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Speaker 1: The podcast about colts extreme belief in the abusive power

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Speaker 1: from two levitators who actually experienced it.

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Speaker 5: A Luele Oblanc, expert levitator.

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Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth. I am levitating right now.

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Speaker 5: My god, you are.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's so cool. The chair beneath me is an

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Speaker 6: illusion that.

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Speaker 5: Seems like a different thing.

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Speaker 1: But today our guests are Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly.

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Speaker 1: They are the founders of Cult News one oh one.

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Speaker 1: They've done a lot of work with IXA, the International

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Speaker 1: Cultic Studies Association, and they are highly experienced cult interventionists.

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Speaker 1: They're going to talk to us about their own experiences

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Speaker 1: with transcendental meditation or TM, early cult deprogramming and why

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Speaker 1: it was problematic and what they've learned after years of

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Speaker 1: doing their own cult intervention work.

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Speaker 2: We'll discuss how most people leave cults of their own volition,

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Speaker 2: why exploring someone's belief is better than attacking them, and

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Speaker 2: how sometimes it can be better to let someone hold

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Speaker 2: on to an untrue world.

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Speaker 1: Feel I freaking love these guys. I love this episode.

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Speaker 1: I like, really desperately want to have them over for

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Speaker 1: dinner and pick their brains and listen to them talk forever.

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Speaker 5: But before we get into it, Megan went to the

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Speaker 5: cultiest thing this week for you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm just reading right now about a Netflix documentary

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Speaker 2: coming out about some people that we actually interviewed, which

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Speaker 2: are the FLDS. This though is the compound down in Texas,

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Speaker 2: and it's talking a lot with his son, Wendell Jeff's

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Speaker 2: he had a bunch of moms and they were all

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Speaker 2: the same age as him because he was just marrying

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Speaker 2: his father was marrying younger and younger girls. So then

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Speaker 2: he's saying, you're hitting on your mom, right, and they're like,

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Speaker 2: I'm not. Actually, she's just like my age and I

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Speaker 2: don't know. So this documentary it's coming out soon, and

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty interested me too.

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Speaker 1: The Mormon offshoot community is so layered and complicated there's

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Speaker 1: so many different like sub sects, and every new one

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Speaker 1: that I learned about is equally fascinating and really similar

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways and really different in other ways.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it'll be presumably harrowing to hear his story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a real, real, really really crazy person. So

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Speaker 2: looking forward to hearing from his son for sure. What

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Speaker 2: about you, what's the cultiest thing that happened to you

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Speaker 2: this week?

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I'm so tired, I can't even think.

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Speaker 6: But we just tell us why you finished filming.

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Speaker 1: We just wrapped our short film at five in the morning,

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Speaker 1: five in the morning today.

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Speaker 6: Great.

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Speaker 1: It was really difficult and challenging, but great, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: look amazing, I hope.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, we're not.

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Speaker 1: Here to talk about that. We're here to talk about Colts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we talked about Colts in a few weeks. So I

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Speaker 1: think for me, the cultiest thing is this video that

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Speaker 1: I actually shared on Twitter of a man outside of

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Speaker 1: an NRA convention being interviewed about how he feels about

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Speaker 1: gun control. And this man is like, more people die

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Speaker 1: from hammers each year than guns, and the guy interviewing

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Speaker 1: him is like, that's not true, and the guy was like,

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Speaker 1: look it up, and so the interviewer was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's look it up right now. And they looked it

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Speaker 1: up and of course, definitely not true. The top two

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Speaker 1: cause of death are guns and hammers are like blunt

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Speaker 1: instruments are like pretty far down the list obviously, Thank god.

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Speaker 1: I think fewer people would die if hammers were the

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Speaker 1: primary instruments of death. So I don't know this. So

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Speaker 1: this the interviewer is like, that's not true. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: at it right here, do you see? And the guy

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Speaker 1: immediately pivoted and was like, well, I still think like

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Speaker 1: they're gonna take away our guns, and like just didn't it,

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Speaker 1: like fully didn't penetrate that this belief.

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Speaker 5: That he had was wrong.

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Speaker 1: And it was just really interesting to watch it in

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Speaker 1: real time because that is exactly what we talk about

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Speaker 1: here all the time, which is that like attacking people

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Speaker 1: with facts, it just makes them defensive about their worldview

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Speaker 1: because their worldview is so tied in with their identity.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you can't just deconstruct someone with a.

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Speaker 1: Fact, right, Like I can imagine being in that position

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Speaker 1: and being at this place where I've found a lot

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Speaker 1: of community with other you know, fucking gun owners and

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Speaker 1: someone is basically hitting me with facts too.

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Speaker 5: I can imagine that feeling.

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Speaker 1: Like they're trying to rip away my community on some

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Speaker 1: subconscious level, you know what I mean. And of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so interesting because you think logic is gonna work,

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Speaker 1: you know, you think it's gonna be the thing, and

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Speaker 1: in this episode we will learn more about why that's

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Speaker 1: not the case.

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Speaker 2: I just saw that they gave away at our raffle

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Speaker 2: a gold plated like assault rifle, which was just, my god.

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Speaker 6: The most evil thing I've ever I've ever seen.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm not even anti gun or anything like that,

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Speaker 2: but that is just sick.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've already talked about the gun thing, so

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Speaker 1: I don't need to get into it, but the like

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Speaker 1: worship of the NRA and of fucking military grade weapons

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Speaker 1: designed to kill humans, the worship of that is like

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Speaker 1: fucking terrifying.

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Speaker 6: It truly is not good.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I love going shooting, I love going to

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Speaker 1: the gun range, but that shit is scary.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, just it seemed like read the room and buy

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Speaker 6: the room.

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Speaker 2: I mean, humanity and maybe this specific week, don't gold

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Speaker 2: plate a tragedy.

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Speaker 1: After nineteen children were just killed yeah. Anyway, so that's

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Speaker 1: that's a that's another could thing.

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Speaker 5: But you guys, I'm tired. We're gonna get into this

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Speaker 5: interview now, yeah, let's get into the interview.

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Speaker 6: This interview is great.

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Speaker 2: We weren't tired for the interviews, so don't worry about that,

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Speaker 2: and the enjoy it.

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Speaker 6: It was.

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Speaker 1: Welcome Patrick Ryan and Joseph Kelly. Should we call you

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Speaker 1: Joseph for Joe Jo Joe? Hi Joe Kelly.

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Speaker 7: I've been hearing about you guys from my mom for years.

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Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, we love Christine.

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Speaker 7: So you run cult News one oh one? Is that right?

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Speaker 1: And you've both done extensive work with IXA, which is

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Speaker 1: the International Cultic Studies Now I'm gonna guess it used to.

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Speaker 3: Called the American Family Foundation, but that sounds too much

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Speaker 3: like a Christian group called the American Family Federation. Ah,

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Speaker 3: so they had to change that up and the board

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Speaker 3: decided that IXA would make a lot more sense.

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Speaker 7: I like it.

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Speaker 4: My CSA has been around for about forty two years.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to call an anti cult organization, but

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Speaker 4: in the realm of organization to deal with cultic groups,

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Speaker 4: ICSA was more of the academic side. Originally, and they

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Speaker 4: continue to produce academic journals on the study of influence

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Speaker 4: and control and ICSA also has a support system and

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Speaker 4: recovery for people. So I work for them for twenty

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Speaker 4: three years up to eight years ago, and Joe for

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Speaker 4: not as long, but for a long time.

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Speaker 7: Wow, shots fired.

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Speaker 6: What's wrong with being anti cults?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's an interesting question.

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Speaker 3: In fact, you have to define the word cult. I mean,

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Speaker 3: are we talking about Wickan wisdom? Are we talking about

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Speaker 3: things that are different from mainstream? And yet you know,

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Speaker 3: are you know what one might call cult? There are

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Speaker 3: cults within the Catholic Church's the cult of Mary. You know,

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Speaker 3: do we want to classify everything as negative just because

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Speaker 3: of the word cult. We've come to familiarize ourselves with

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Speaker 3: the term and it makes us, you know, it kind

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Speaker 3: of makes it compact and easier to understand, and it

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Speaker 3: can be very helpful for people in the beginning stages

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Speaker 3: of leaving an organization which is problematic and toxic. And

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Speaker 3: it can be a cultic relationship between a husband and wife,

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Speaker 3: or it can be a large group group awareness training.

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Speaker 3: All of those could be cultic in some dimension, and

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Speaker 3: the relationship of an individual with that group is specific

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Speaker 3: to that person. So you'll find many people went through them.

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Speaker 3: We all know Nextium now you know Keithrin are you

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Speaker 3: know the you know predator, Yeah, yeah, And yet there

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Speaker 3: were fourteen thousand people that took part in his programs

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Speaker 3: go forward. They weren't all cult members, but that center core,

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Speaker 3: that group at the top of that Tiramid structure, you

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Speaker 3: know dos, and then following down from there were more

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Speaker 3: and more committed to the ideology and his program.

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Speaker 1: I know actually people who were in Exiom but not

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Speaker 1: in Nexium. Like we talk about that a lot. How

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Speaker 1: everyone's experience with an organization can be completely different, and

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Speaker 1: some are in a cult and some are not.

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Speaker 4: Go on Patrick, so on the issue of would not

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Speaker 4: be anti cult? That's it's a very good question. So

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Speaker 4: Joe is bringing up there's definitional issues. There's a sociologists definition.

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Speaker 4: There's this people who study religion their definition We from

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Speaker 4: icsa more come from a psychological perspective. So there's that perspective.

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Speaker 4: So there's all different kinds of organizations that may be

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Speaker 4: cultic in some nature. But Joe and I deal with

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Speaker 4: people that who are in influenced situations that maybe wouldn't

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Speaker 4: fit the classic definition that someone would want to get

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Speaker 4: a give of a cult, but that doesn't address why

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Speaker 4: we would are not anti cult. So I was in

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Speaker 4: a group, Joe is in a group, and we both

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Speaker 4: sue the groups that we were in always suit in

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Speaker 4: federal court for fraud and negligence. Wow, I certainly was

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Speaker 4: anti cult. So I'm sixty. I started when I was seventeen.

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Speaker 4: That's when I got into the group. So when I

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Speaker 4: was twenty three twenty four, I got out and I

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Speaker 4: was very angry at the group. I was picketing. I

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Speaker 4: was anti cult, and nobody from that group would talk

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Speaker 4: to me. So that group I became the enemy, the

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Speaker 4: personification of the devil.

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Speaker 3: In scientology terms, the sp or suppressive person person. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: good on you.

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Speaker 4: Is there is a role for people to be exposing groups.

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Speaker 4: But when you're doing the work kind of work that

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Speaker 4: Joe and I do, which is an invention work or

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Speaker 4: mediation work, it doesn't make us that neutral party that

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Speaker 4: can help someone reconnect with their family. So for our

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Speaker 4: approach to intervention, so to speak, it's not helpful for

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Speaker 4: us to be anti cult people so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Right, Sometimes I feel like the language people have around

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Speaker 1: cults is lumping everyone from the group together as though

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Speaker 1: the victims of the leader are bad, when in fact

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Speaker 1: they are indoctrinated and they're being controlled and manipulated. So

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Speaker 1: to me, and that's what I think of when I

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Speaker 1: hear anti cult, It's like, no, we're not anti cult,

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Speaker 1: we're anti cult leader, right or anti abuser.

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Speaker 3: We're anti victimizer and pro victim. We really want to

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Speaker 3: support the people who have seen clear of it. I

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Speaker 3: live in this community in South Philadelphia, which is a

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Speaker 3: lot like Brooklyn. It's centrifying. It's very different from the

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Speaker 3: place that I first moved to when I was in

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Speaker 3: the group forty some years ago, when properties were dirt

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Speaker 3: cheap and you could find a place for seventy nine

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Speaker 3: hundred dollars to live. Now there's places selling for one

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Speaker 3: point two million. So, by way of comparison, the neighbor

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Speaker 3: who shows up at my doorstep now is someone who's saying, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I heard you guys are the cult. Guys. I was

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Speaker 3: born and raised in three h ol What advice do

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Speaker 3: you have for me? And it's so different. There's so

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Speaker 3: much information for them to have already absorbed. Yet there's

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Speaker 3: still the difficulty in stepping through the information about the

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Speaker 3: negativity of the group. So they've read what they found

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Speaker 3: on the internet, which wasn't available when Pat and I first,

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Speaker 3: you know, left our groups, none of that existed. It

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Speaker 3: with newspaper articles if you could find them, and devoted

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Speaker 3: ex members who were out there, you know, flying the

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Speaker 3: banner of freedom of thought. It was a very different feeling.

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Speaker 3: Now it's all there pro and con. Make your decision,

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Speaker 3: and who are we to say that you're right or

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Speaker 3: wrong if you've read all the con and you're still

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Speaker 3: deciding to enjoy yourself with a group that it's considered problematic.

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Speaker 3: So it becomes much more complicated and more nuanced. What

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Speaker 3: are the influences put the bear on the individual that

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Speaker 3: are causing them to commit to something that the world

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Speaker 3: has seen, you know, the larger world as problematic and toxic.

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Speaker 3: What do we do with that?

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to ask you both about your personal

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Speaker 1: experiences if you can kind of give us the nutshell version.

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Speaker 7: We were both a part of TM. Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's right?

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Speaker 1: So how did you both join first of all in

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Speaker 1: the first place? And then we can kind of get

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Speaker 1: into how you got out.

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Speaker 4: This is Pat Ryan so I was in high school.

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Speaker 4: I wrote for my high school newspaper in Saint Petersburg, Florida,

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Speaker 4: and TM Maharishi Mashogi, the Bels Guru, appeared on a

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Speaker 4: TV show called The MERV Griffin Show. It was a

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Speaker 4: very popular show at the time, and about forty thousand

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Speaker 4: people started learning TM a month in the nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Seventy five TM For anyone who doesn't know strands for

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Speaker 1: transcendental meditation.

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Speaker 3: Contemporary practitioners would beat David Lynch, Jerry Seinfeld, Russell Brand.

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Speaker 3: These are all people who promote and used transit doental

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Speaker 3: meditation as they presented and adjunct to their lives by right.

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Speaker 4: So I went to write this story about TIM because

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Speaker 4: it was popular. And when I walked into the center,

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Speaker 4: I'm from Saint Petersburg, Florida. The Phillies, Philadelpha Phillies, the

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Speaker 4: baseball team spring train in the town next to Clearwater,

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Speaker 4: and so when I walked in, there was famous athletes.

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Speaker 4: So I'm like sixteen years old, seventeen years old, and

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Speaker 4: there's these famous athletes there. So I ended up taking

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Speaker 4: the course, and because I was young, they were very

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Speaker 4: nice to me and very kind, and they encouraged me

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Speaker 4: almost immediately to go on at Advanced Courts, which was

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Speaker 4: a week long and that course was taught by Mia

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Speaker 4: Pharaoh's sister. Oh Wowow Prudence runs. So you know the

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Speaker 4: song the Beatles song Dear Prudence, Want You come out

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Speaker 4: and play It's written about her.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow.

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Speaker 4: She was the person who taught the course. And so

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Speaker 4: I'm there. The Maharishi had just started a university, and

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Speaker 4: so she encouraged me to go to the TM University.

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Speaker 4: So within a few months of learning, I informed my

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Speaker 4: parents that I was not going to where they expected

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Speaker 4: I was going. I was going to the maharishi u,

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Speaker 4: which didn't go over real well. To context, my dad's

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Speaker 4: from South Dakota. My grandparents' homesteaded a farm, and he

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Speaker 4: was a high ranking military guy, and his son says,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to go off and study into his lim

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Speaker 4: Oh man.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: They came to understand that if they wanted to have

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Speaker 4: a relationship with me, they had to go along with this,

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Speaker 4: because I had sort of switched my fundamental assumptions about

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Speaker 4: how the universe worked and how I was going to

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Speaker 4: get off the planet. Rather than being a good Irish

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Speaker 4: Catholic kid, was I had a new world view, and

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Speaker 4: I was special. It was very powerful and amazing. So

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Speaker 4: at seventeen, I loaded up my VW and went to

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Speaker 4: the university in Iowa, where I spent five years.

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Speaker 2: If you could sum up your new point of view

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Speaker 2: on life in one sentence, what would it be when

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Speaker 2: he joined?

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Speaker 4: You mean, yeah, yeah, So being from an Irish Catholic family,

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Speaker 4: there's Mary, Joseph, Jesus whatever. And how you get off

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Speaker 4: the planet, I don't know. Adam and Eve did something

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Speaker 4: wrong and somehow we had the nuns the milk bottle

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Speaker 4: our soul which was filled with bad marks, and we

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Speaker 4: cleanse it or we'd end up in something called purgatory.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we had this heaven and hell. That's how

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Speaker 4: you got off the planet. That's sort of this fundamental

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Speaker 4: assumption of how you see the world. The TM worldview

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Speaker 4: was different than that. The TM worldview comes from more

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Speaker 4: of an Eastern worldview that says that all of us

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Speaker 4: can become a god. All of us were once a spark,

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Speaker 4: and we go through three point five billion lifetimes as

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Speaker 4: an aunt, as a frog, as a roach, as a whatever,

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Speaker 4: until we become a human. And then once we're a

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Speaker 4: human we have this unique opportunity that we can to

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Speaker 4: transcend and get off this wheel of the cycle a

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Speaker 4: birth and death called some sorrow, and this is an opportunity.

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Speaker 4: And to waste this lifetime by not getting off back

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Speaker 4: getting enlightened, would be like selling a diamond for the

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Speaker 4: price of spinach. It's be a complete waste. These are

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Speaker 4: two different world views, and so when you adopt this

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Speaker 4: new worldview, then you reinterpret your past in terms of

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Speaker 4: the new view.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Pat raises a really interesting point here is how

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Speaker 3: did you get from doing a technique that promotes relaxation

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Speaker 3: and better grades and improve physical health to the point

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Speaker 3: where you believe that it's going to lead you to

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Speaker 3: eternal destinies? Was that what we was promised in the beginning. No,

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Speaker 3: we didn't know that at all.

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Speaker 7: That's what I was going to ask.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it wasn't fully informed consent. And that's how we

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Speaker 3: distinguish a group that one one might call cultiic from

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Speaker 3: one that might be more mainstream. So if I wanted

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Speaker 3: to convert to Judaism today, I would go to the

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Speaker 3: local synagogue. There'd be a rabbi there. He'd say, here's

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Speaker 3: what we believe. This is our belief system, choose it,

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Speaker 3: believe it or not, and if you don't believe it,

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Speaker 3: then you know there's other places you can go. Whereas

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Speaker 3: with groups that are considered cul tick, they don't offer

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Speaker 3: you the full agenda right much.

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Speaker 7: Like scientology exactly.

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Speaker 4: These types of religions and TM, although claims it's not

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Speaker 4: a religion, is a religion, are gnostic religions, and there

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Speaker 4: are religions that gnostic is sort of hidden knowledge. So

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Speaker 4: the justification from a gnostic system is that we dole

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Speaker 4: it out as people are ready, So there could be

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Speaker 4: an understanding why you would not tell someone the whole truth.

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Speaker 4: And in TM that was called telling people the sweet truth.

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Speaker 4: Maris you would say an elephant has two sets of teeth,

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Speaker 4: one to show people and one that bites. You have

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Speaker 4: two different levels of going on. I went to the university,

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Speaker 4: which is an accredited university through the PhD level, but

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Speaker 4: it's changed and that's a good thing from when I

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Speaker 4: went in in nineteen seventy five. So in the time

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Speaker 4: I was there for about five years, I spent eighteen

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Speaker 4: months with my eyes closed in month and three month

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Speaker 4: long blocks, about twenty twenty two hours a day doing

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Speaker 4: these meditation and we came to believe we could learn

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Speaker 4: to levitate to save the world.

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Speaker 3: Oh, lots of hopping on foam pads. Rooms filled with

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Speaker 3: foam pads, Twenty five hundred people all meditating together and hopping,

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Speaker 3: physically hopping on their haunches in order to improve the

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Speaker 3: destiny of the world.

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Speaker 4: You're being negative by calling it hopping when I learn.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, what's the word for it? To make it

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Speaker 6: not weird?

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Speaker 4: It was called levitation at first, and the literature that

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Speaker 4: they published said that the body lifts up, moves six

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Speaker 4: foot forward, and gently comes to the ground. The people

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Speaker 4: who said to me that they could do it were

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Speaker 4: a Nobel Prize winner, Brian Josephson who got the Nobel

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Speaker 4: Prize in physics.

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Speaker 6: No, no way, the.

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Speaker 4: Lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania, Scranton. There were all of these,

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Speaker 4: very well established. Somebody from a cern in Switzerland, from

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Speaker 4: the particle Accellar laboratory. They said that they took the

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Speaker 4: course and they levitated.

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Speaker 3: No way.

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Speaker 1: Now what the credibility that lends to that practice?

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Speaker 4: Amazing? So it was called levitation. It was very secret

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Speaker 4: of the whole process, but we believed, or we were

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Speaker 4: taught that by practicing this levitation in groups, we could

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Speaker 4: stop wars, and indeed people were sent into war zones

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Speaker 4: in Nicaragua, Iran, Mozambi, Zimbabwe, into hotel rooms covered in

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Speaker 4: from rubber, theoretically levitating to stop wars.

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Speaker 1: And what was the legend mechanism behind that, How would

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Speaker 1: the levitation, how was it supposed to help?

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Speaker 8: It was a square root of one percent of the

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Speaker 8: population of the world practicing these very highly advanced yogic

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Speaker 8: techniques that would then clear the atmosphere for all of mankind.

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Speaker 8: So like karmakle exactly cleaned the karmic air so that

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Speaker 8: the bonds of karma would no longer be held down

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Speaker 8: on humanity.

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Speaker 3: So we really felt like, wow, you know, here we

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Speaker 3: are doing something extraordinary. We didn't have to joined the

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Speaker 3: local socialist group or march against the war. We just

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Speaker 3: had to transcend. And in that transcendent state, we were

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Speaker 3: purifying all of our neighbors around where we sat, and

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Speaker 3: they were benefiting from it, and we were then becoming

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Speaker 3: more highly advanced human beings.

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Speaker 4: This is the Joe's explaining a little bit more of

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Speaker 4: what you would tell the public. There was the public

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Speaker 4: view that this is somehow creating orderliness and the consciousness

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Speaker 4: of the universe. But then there was the internal story,

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Speaker 4: and the internal story is a lot different. So the

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Speaker 4: internal story is that if I drop a pen on

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Speaker 4: the on my desk, a law of nature is operating,

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Speaker 4: and that's called gravity. And we were taught that gravity

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Speaker 4: had an operator like a puppeteer who runs gravity. And

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Speaker 4: every law of nature had a puppeteer, so to speak.

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Speaker 4: And those are called the Davis, and those are the gods.

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Speaker 4: So everything in the universe, all the things that make

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Speaker 4: the universe work function, are controlled by these datas, and

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Speaker 4: they're asleep. The ones that make the world a better place.

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Speaker 4: The ones that are not so good, that create wars

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Speaker 4: and conflict, they're awake. And what we have to do

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Speaker 4: is wake up the sleeping gods by giving them their sustenance,

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Speaker 4: their food, and that's produced in our digestive system when

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Speaker 4: we meditate. So we would produce this in our digestive system,

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Speaker 4: and then we would do these incantations to send this

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Speaker 4: substance called soma to the ruler of the gods called Indra,

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Speaker 4: and Indra would then dule it out to where it

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Speaker 4: needed to go.

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Speaker 1: Why are all cultip groups. Why are their belief systems

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Speaker 1: so complicated? It's so complicated.

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Speaker 7: It can never be a simple answer, you know, And

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Speaker 7: they always claim.

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Speaker 6: It is not complicated. They're like, the truth is simple.

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Speaker 5: Man.

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Speaker 7: If you don't think it's simple, it's your problem.

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Speaker 3: And that's the unique thing that they say it's not

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Speaker 3: complicated because at the outset, they want as many members

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Speaker 3: as possible, bringing in dollars, pounds and you know, euros

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Speaker 3: into the fund of the group. So whatever it takes

437
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Speaker 3: to simplify it is what the group wants to do

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Speaker 3: in order to enlarge and grow the ideals of leadership.

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Speaker 3: Some leaders are very you know, greedy, They are power

440
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 3: hungry and they want that power and control over their

441
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 3: individual followers and other groups last through time. You know,

442
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 3: if you're anybody's watching Under the Banner of Heaven, it's

443
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 3: a powerful story and it shows that there's many different

444
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 3: understandings of what Mormonism is.

445
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 7: It's not one thing for Mormon here.

446
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it's the same for those of

447
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 3: us who were involved in transcendental meditation.

448
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 5: Right.

449
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 4: What happened with the Joe and myself is we were

450
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 4: in this belief system and we knew this sort of

451
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 4: the what we would tell the outside and what was

452
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 4: on the inside.

453
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 6: And you guys are so sleep deprived, right.

454
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, In fact the opposite. So

455
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: I when I was into at the university, Jonestown happened

456
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy eight, and I freaked out a little bit.

457
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh shit, what is this? What's happening to us?

458
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 4: And so I started reading about cults and they said

459
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 4: their sleep deprivation. At the university, we had to have

460
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 4: eight hours sleep a night. They said there was bad food.

461
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 4: We had the best food. So all the things that

462
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 4: people said, the principle is that groups affect your critical thinking.

463
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 4: So when you meditate as much as we did, critical

464
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,120
Speaker 4: thinking decreases and you become more suggestible. So you can

465
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: get people into a suggestible state by different approaches, seat

466
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 4: deprivation being one, or increasing amount of meditation is another approach.

467
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 4: The same thing happens, but it just happens in a

468
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 4: different way. I believed it that I was so afraid

469
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 4: I was in a cult that I went to New

470
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 4: York City on over a spring break and I knew

471
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 4: about the Moonies, and I went and stood by Penn Station,

472
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 4: and I got recruited three times and went through their

473
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: workshops and you see, like, well, what does brainwashing look like?

474
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 4: But it just didn't make sense to me because it

475
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 4: wasn't like anything that I was being described. They didn't

476
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 4: do that to me at the Moonies, and it didn't

477
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 4: seem right and tam so ultimately what happened to me

478
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 4: and this affected Joe's mars. She wanted us to move

479
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 4: into cities, and we came into this very marginal area

480
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 4: of sixteen of US and we bought up a bunch

481
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 4: of houses a dollar to seven thousand dollars and we

482
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 4: created ideal village in theory and in that I got

483
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: a phone call one day for my dad and he said, son,

484
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 4: I'd like you to come home and talk to your sister.

485
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: She joined a cult. Oh wow, I'm like, what do

486
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: you mean? He said?

487
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 3: You know?

488
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 4: I said, Dad, She said crazy Christian nuts. She had

489
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 4: joined the Way International. And I really don't want to

490
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: talk to her. And so my dad said, look, I've

491
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 4: supported you in every thing you've ever wanted to do

492
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 4: in your life, including going to this mahave Shi University.

493
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 4: I'm asking you to come home and talk to your

494
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 4: sister because she will not talk to any of us.

495
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 4: There's five of us, but yeah, two of us joined groups.

496
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: I'm one of seven and I'm the only one.

497
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 4: So I went to Florida, got my sister and ultimately

498
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 4: got her to come back to Philadelphia to meet a

499
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 4: woman named Lois Pattonman who was at a programmer. And

500
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 4: so in my house, this woman started talking to my

501
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 4: sister about how cults work, how influence works, how disguised

502
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 4: techniques have hit notes this work, how you can use

503
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 4: behavior modification. And as she was talking to my sister

504
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 4: about this Christian group, I was going, oh my god,

505
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 4: that's what they do to me. And so because it

506
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: wasn't directed at me, it was directed at my sister,

507
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 4: I could make the connections and fundamental to our approach

508
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 4: to doing intervention is based upon that experience. If you're

509
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 4: not attacking anyone, we might have a discussion, open discussion

510
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 4: about ideas and.

511
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: Concept of finger wagging. No, you're in a cult. I've

512
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: found out all this information on the Internet, and therefore

513
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: you have to look at the same information and come

514
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 3: to the same conclusions. When when really an individual's having

515
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: an internal experience, unlike anything they've had up to that

516
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: moment and anything that they've had within the family system,

517
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 3: So they can't relate to the parents complaint. They see

518
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 3: the parents complain as being dark, and they see their

519
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 3: experience as being alleviating some issue or problem that they've

520
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 3: been struggling with out of the course of time. So

521
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 3: how do you bridge that, How do we come together

522
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 3: and have a discussion on Even while you're experiencing something extraordinary,

523
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 3: we see down the road that that train that you're

524
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 3: on the track is out, you know, at mile marker

525
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 3: two twenty three, and that's been proven over time, and

526
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 3: there's many people who've reported that same experience. But for you, now,

527
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: you're on the most beautiful train ride with beautiful scenery

528
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: on either side, and so you can't imagine that your

529
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: family has anything to offer you at this point. So

530
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 3: the family has to understand how to approach you respectfully, patiently,

531
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 3: and not rush into this without being fully informed about

532
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: where you may be at any given point.

533
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: And not literally kidnapping you and telling you that your

534
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: beliefs are wrong.

535
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 3: Noh, we know people who've been kidnapped, and we're going

536
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 3: back to the seventies and we met them at what

537
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: was then called the Cold Awareness Network conferences where we

538
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: would sit in large groups effects members, maybe thirty to

539
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 3: fifty people, and we'd all discuss our unique experiences and

540
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: being in groups. And it would be New Age, it

541
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: would be Christian, it would be Eastern, it would be

542
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 3: group based, it would be one on ones as they

543
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: call them. So you had a real variety of people

544
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: coming from many different backgrounds, sharing their moment of what

545
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: caused them to stop and pause, what was it that

546
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: led them to leave, what gave them the strength, And

547
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: the general theme is that people leave because it's no

548
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: longer useful to them, to them as an individual, and

549
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: not because somebody's telling you this is what you must believe.

550
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 3: And so those people who were deprogrammed, some of them

551
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: were grateful, but almost seemed like they were the walking wounded.

552
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 3: They left the groups traumatized by the cult and then

553
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: re traumatized by the leaving experience. And that really caught

554
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 3: me off guard because I had didn't have any of

555
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: those experiences. My experience getting in was much more gentle,

556
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 3: and my experience leaving had to do with with like

557
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: Pat had discussed, you know, with his sister standing at

558
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: a distance. I was involved in a legal action against

559
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 3: trans and dental meditation, and as a result of that,

560
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: I met with some of what were considered at that

561
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 3: time the world experts on thought reform or mind control.

562
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: Doctor Margaret Singer, doctor Lewis Jolly and West, these names

563
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 3: you may have heard. They're kind of considered to be,

564
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 3: you know, icon in the field. And these were people

565
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: that were my individual counselors and were advisors on the

566
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: lawsuit that led me out of my cult thinking. And

567
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: it was soon after that that some of those individuals said, hey,

568
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 3: you guys have a great stories that might help others.

569
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: Why don't you think about sharing with others? And that's

570
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 3: more or less that the way that our experience as

571
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 3: exit counselors grew from seeing what we didn't want to

572
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 3: be that the programmer, you know, going back to you know,

573
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: the Ted Patricks and others who felt kidnapping was the

574
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: only method or solution to this problem, and moving into

575
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 3: something much more respectful and gentle.

576
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask, if most people leave

577
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: on their own, what is the importance in bothering to

578
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: try to convince them?

579
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: Well, this is a good question. The research indicates and

580
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 4: it's not perfect research. We're talking to psychological research. But

581
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 4: about ninety percent of people who joined grew leave and

582
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 4: they leave them on their own. But what we don't

583
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 4: know is if is after a week or if it's

584
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 4: after fifty years. We just know that most people leave

585
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 4: on their own, but a substantial minority of those people

586
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 4: are harmed, maybe psychologically, physically in some way. So there's

587
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 4: the universe of people who've learned trends and that a

588
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 4: meditation about ten million people. There's another universe of sub

589
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 4: universe of people that were teachers of TM, maybe forty

590
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 4: thousand of us. So these are the people who did

591
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: the advanced things that I was describing.

592
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: So the ten million, Yeah, I'm one of the ten million.

593
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: It did not ruin my life. I'm fine. Yeah, got blackout,

594
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: drunk ones and scream my secret mantra to be funny.

595
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 7: Well, now you have to tell us, Megan, Well.

596
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 3: We have to cut this interview short.

597
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 4: There's this universe of people who learned TM, that's technology.

598
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: There's a sub universe of people who were teachers of TM,

599
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 4: and then there's a sub universe of those people who

600
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: felt in some way there were psychologically armed by this experience,

601
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 4: and that's the people that we're concerned with. And that's

602
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 4: in some way why we're not anti cult because we

603
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: can label TM it has cultic attributes at some levels.

604
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 4: When you learn TM, you're liied to. There's no doubt

605
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 4: about it. The teacher didn't tell you the truth about

606
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 4: a number of things because they thought that they knew

607
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 4: better than you. You pay too much money for learning

608
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 4: to TM. Okay, that's fine, but whatever it is, you're

609
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: not in a cult. The level of being a teacher

610
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: is someone where we knew we were lying to you,

611
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: We knew we were trying to save your sol we

612
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 4: knew the secrets. So I think their groups are like that.

613
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 4: There's all these different levels. And so why interfere with

614
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 4: someone's life without their permission? And that's what an intervention is.

615
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 4: And that's a question I ask families all the time.

616
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 4: What right do you have to interfere with your loved

617
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 4: when it's life? You know, they hire us to come

618
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 4: and help them to address the situation. And then we

619
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: asked this question, what right do you have? We want

620
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 4: the families just to understand what first the person loves

621
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 4: about this group. It's because it's like falling in love

622
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 4: being in a group, and what do they think is

623
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 4: wrong or how is this affecting someone's life in a

624
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 4: way that's not healthy for them? And what do they see?

625
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: They have to have good reasons, and so we help

626
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 4: families distill their concerns and the idea that just because

627
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 4: you're in a group, somebody called it a cult or

628
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 4: someone said it were brainwash, that's not good enough for me.

629
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 4: It really has to be distilled to something that is

630
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 4: meaningful that this person, I mean is not functioning there,

631
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 4: they can't hold on a job, they have abandoned their children.

632
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 4: I'm giving it extremes here.

633
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was just talking to a next member

634
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: of iskaon Internest Society Christian Consciousness or Harry Christina movement.

635
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: In the nineties, there was a group called the Straight Edge.

636
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: It was a hardcore music scene group. Yeah, there was

637
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 3: a lot of recruitment being done by bands Shelter one

638
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: eight in Harcom music scene amongst young kids. These would

639
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,959
Speaker 3: have been, you know, thirteen to eighteen year olds, not

640
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: always you know, well thought through in their decision making process,

641
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: but it was a blast. I just was looking at

642
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: a video the other day of shelter. There was a

643
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: place called in Philadelphia called the Vampire Club, which was

644
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: where people went for Harcom music in the nineties and

645
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 3: two thousands. These kids were so enthralled with the message

646
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: of the Harcom music scene and being different from their parents,

647
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 3: who were sexually free and fluid and straight edge. Was

648
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: no meat eating, no sex without true love, which fit

649
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 3: really neatly in with regulative principles of the hard Christian movement.

650
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: And so here was a group that was promoting values

651
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: that we would otherwise think were good. Right, Yeah, But

652
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 3: then these kids were failing out of school. They were

653
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: encouraged to chant sixteen rounds a day, which is an

654
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 3: enormous number of hours of chanting, made their minds at

655
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 3: the mush when they needed to be focusing on their studies,

656
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 3: and so there was that negative side. The organization didn't

657
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: see how to kind of modify their teachings to this

658
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 3: younger audience. They just dealt with the fundamentalism of leadership,

659
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 3: which said, this is what we do. We do sixteen

660
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 3: rounds a day, which is like three and a half

661
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 3: hours of chanting, and that's it, and that's the beginning.

662
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 3: And if you don't do that, you're not a true member.

663
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 7: This was the straight edge scene.

664
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, within it.

665
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: Okay, people thought I was straight edge all the time

666
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: because I didn't drink or smoke and I was a

667
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: virgin while going to punk shows. But I was like,

668
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. I just don't drinkers.

669
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: I thought it was just sort of a loose thing

670
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: that people would identify with.

671
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. So within straight edge it was the hardy Christian movement,

672
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 3: which was kind of using the straight edge scene as

673
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: a vehicle for them to promote their own ideology and

674
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 3: recruitment to bring young people into temples brilliant.

675
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 4: So some of the big bands that were very well

676
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 4: known one a Way, Shelter Cromag, those bands were Christian members.

677
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 7: I did not know that. That's so interesting.

678
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 4: Okay, that's how it sort of flies.

679
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: And then there were other people in the straight scene

680
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 3: who were completely independent of all that and didn't abide

681
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 3: by it because they they felt that the Christian members

682
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: were anti feminists, which they were, because the founder of

683
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 3: Higher Christan movement said that women's brains were half the

684
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 3: size of men's. Oh well, true, you know, and to

685
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: be one of us you have to be a believer

686
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: in those ideals.

687
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 4: On that one. As a sort of a funny experience

688
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 4: I had, I was doing an intervention with a young

689
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 4: Christian guy that had really gone off the edge, and

690
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 4: he believed because the leader taught that man's brain is

691
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 4: sixty four ounces and a woman's brain is thirty two ounces.

692
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 3: Wow, the most.

693
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 4: Smartest woman is always less intelligent than the most stupid male.

694
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 4: And so his sister was like the head of some

695
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 4: major medical field in Canada, and so we were talking

696
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 4: day after day, and finally I arranged for to go

697
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 4: to a morgue to weigh brains. And then we didn't

698
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 4: go and do it.

699
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 7: Oh damn.

700
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 4: Because when you have absolute truths, if there's one error,

701
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 4: then you don't have absolute truth anymore. So people who

702
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: believe that the philosophy is absolutely correct, there can't be

703
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: any part of it that's wrong.

704
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 6: This reminds me of Christians who think that men have

705
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 6: more ReBs.

706
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: Yes, I just read yesterday that somebody took one of

707
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 2: their family members to a morgue they were a doctor

708
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: and showed them they have the same amount of ReBs.

709
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 7: Are you freaking kidding me? I had no idea that

710
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 7: anyone eve was made.

711
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: Out of battle. So you know, all guys, have you

712
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 3: know one more rib show?

713
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 4: They do count them.

714
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when they get that real proof, he didn't

715
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 2: want it anymore.

716
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 6: He didn't want to go a weigh the.

717
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 3: Brain or he was holding on for other things going

718
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 3: on in the exit counseling, that became just one ish

719
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: shoe of many to challenge his beliefs. And this is

720
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: what we hope to do. It has to be relevant

721
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 3: to the individual who's struggling with these issues and relevant

722
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: to the family who are coming forward with their complaints,

723
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: which may have nothing to do with why the person

724
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 3: got involved in the group. So we have to respect

725
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 3: the individual in the group and see, Okay, what is

726
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 3: it that's attractive in this? Does your parents even understand

727
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 3: you might be better off than where you were previously?

728
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: Do you find that there are instances where people are

729
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: like my family members and a cult and you're like,

730
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: but they're fine and we don't need to do anything

731
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: like does that ever happen?

732
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

733
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 4: Well, yes, in some way we might see the thing

734
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 4: that they're involved in is not healthy for them. But

735
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 4: because research tells us that most people leave if we

736
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 4: see them showing signs of leaving, then you don't want

737
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 4: to stop that process. The example I would use is,

738
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 4: you know, when I was seventeen to fifty ten years

739
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 4: old and you're dating somebody and your parents don't like them,

740
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 4: You're going to date that person, yea. And so if

741
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: you could just let go a little bit, most people

742
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 4: will just move through the experience interesting. So the secret

743
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 4: to knowing our success and helping people reevaluate their involvement

744
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 4: has to do with knowing what's going on in their head.

745
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 4: So when I was at the TM movement at the

746
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 4: TM University, there were hundreds of times you, as strangers

747
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 4: could have talked to me and I would have left.

748
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 4: And there were times that you could have brought in

749
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: an army and I wouldn't have budged, and the difference

750
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 4: could be a week. It's just you had to know

751
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 4: if I was happy or not happy. So there were times.

752
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 4: There was one time that was so unhappy that my

753
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 4: friend and I jumped on a freight train and you know,

754
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 4: we went across the state of Iowa on a freight

755
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 4: train because I hated being there so much. And then

756
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 4: I went, oh my god, I's so wrong, and I

757
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 4: went back. So there were times when you want to leave,

758
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 4: in times you don't want to leave, but you get

759
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 4: stuck in this idea and this is how make it

760
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 4: off the planet. But you just have to know what's

761
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 4: going on in someone's head. So if you show someone

762
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 4: respect and you show them to try to understand it

763
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 4: through their eyes, what do they love about this? I

764
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 4: believe personally that you guys, you women, everyone knows what

765
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 4: their parents think about everything. I certainly knew what my

766
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 4: mother thought and dad thought about everything. When the telephone

767
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 4: would ring, when it was you old fashioned phone would ring,

768
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 4: I could tell by the sound of the first word

769
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: out of my mother's mouth how the conversation was going. Right,

770
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 4: you know what they think, So you don't need to

771
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 4: tell your kid this is what's wrong with it, this

772
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 4: is what we don't like, because they already know you

773
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 4: don't like it, So you're I think that your job

774
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: is to try to find out what they love about it,

775
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: so that you become a safe place for them to

776
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 4: create an easy glide path to come back to somewhere.

777
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 4: But if you're an antagonist person to their involvement, and

778
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 4: you might be, you know, some groups are people die

779
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 4: so there may be a reason to be, but you've

780
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 4: got to look at the situation. Not all groups are jonestown,

781
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 4: not all groups are haven escaped. There are thousands and thousands,

782
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 4: thousands of groups, and there's a few of those, So

783
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 4: it's just learning and making a judgment.

784
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 3: It's interesting that the way you described Pat, because you know,

785
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 3: I went from one group to the next day. Within

786
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 3: the Team community, there were a group of us who

787
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 3: joined and got involved with this guy named Swami percussion

788
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: On Sarah Swati, who was many years later found out

789
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: to be a perpetrator of sexual abuse on young girls

790
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 3: within his sec and I was involved in the very

791
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 3: early stages of him developing his group. And he was

792
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: an Indian man who moved on to a small dead

793
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 3: end street in South Philadelphia where we were all transcendental meditators.

794
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: It split the group down the middle. Some of us

795
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 3: went with the Swami, others Pat stayed with the Maharishi.

796
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: And what was interesting was that it took me five

797
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: more years. So when Pat was introducing his sister to

798
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 3: information about colts, I was in TM, he was in TM,

799
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 3: and I happened to walk through the house because we

800
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: were all living in a kind of communal situation and said, Jojoe,

801
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: come here, sit down, take a look at this video.

802
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 3: And I sat there for a minute, you know, took

803
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 3: in a little bit, immediately got twigged that this was

804
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 3: something that was going to shake my world, and got

805
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 3: up and ran out the door. So it wasn't my moment.

806
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: And it took me four more years to come to

807
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 3: the conclusion that what I was seeing in group number

808
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 3: two was the same thing that caused me to leave

809
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 3: group number one. But it took it took a lot

810
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: of time. And one of the things a simple question

811
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: was asked me by doctor Margaret Singer when she was

812
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 3: interviewing me for the litigation against TM. She said, so, Joe,

813
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 3: tell me, just you know, for my own information, what

814
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 3: is it that you think is different about your involvement

815
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: with the Swami as opposed to your involvement with Mahrishi.

816
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: And I said, oh, oh my god, there's so many differences.

817
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 3: Let me tell you, you know, the group number two

818
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 3: is true Hinduism. Group number one was was phonny Hinduism.

819
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: Ye false gods and you know, bells and whistles but

820
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 3: nothing serious. How can anybody take seriously that your gold

821
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 3: out a mantra by age and sex or however they

822
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 3: gave them at that time, which varied. Whereas with Swamiji,

823
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: you could sit there in the room and I was

824
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: like mesmerized because the man was there, the person that guru,

825
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: the god man, the figure that I imagined would come

826
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 3: into my life and transform me that I read about

827
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 3: in books, when the disciples ready to grow comes the

828
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: guy knocked on my door bang bang bang in a

829
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 3: row home in South Philadelphia. How much more magical, mystical

830
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 3: and truth could that be?

831
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: You're on a hero's journey of epic proportions at that point.

832
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 3: At that point, you are blindsided. You're experiencing something that

833
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 3: you can't explain easily to people outside of the spiritual realm.

834
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 3: Because if you've never experienced that transformation or that moment

835
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 3: of conversion that you feel like transforms your moment in history,

836
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: I now know what truth is. And they're sitting there

837
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 3: and you're feeling it. It's all like your body is

838
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: a part of that experience. How can that be negated

839
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 3: easily by simple ideas. You need to walk through it,

840
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: and you need to see the words. You need to

841
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,439
Speaker 3: begin to see the problems arising within the group.

842
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 4: Right.

843
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: I really like how you said it wasn't my moment

844
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: because I think you know a lot of people we

845
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 1: expect someone who's going down a rabbit hole, be it

846
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: QAnon or whatever it is. We're like, this should have

847
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: been the thing, you should be able to see this.

848
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: How did this not get you out? And it's like

849
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: you kind of have to have this extreme patience with

850
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: the person that you love, which is really really hard.

851
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you, guys, and practically speaking,

852
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: how do you show somebody that you care about them,

853
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: that you're there for them, that you're not attacking their

854
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: belief system without enabling potentially harmful behaviors.

855
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: I think that you show them what we call benign curiosity,

856
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 4: some trying to understand. You know, you see your love

857
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: When involved in something that's very difficult for you to

858
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 4: wrap your head around, you say, can you help me

859
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: get there? I want to understand what you see, but

860
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 4: I'm struggling. Help me, help me get there, Help me

861
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 4: understand so that you're not You're an ally, not an adversary.

862
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 4: I believe that if if you're in a bad relationship

863
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 4: and someone people start telling you and you're a bad relationship,

864
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 4: Well then you can fight against those people that are

865
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 4: telling you. Your sister says, this is a bad relationship,

866
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 4: your mother said, you're in a bad relationship. You're fighting,

867
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 4: but if no one's talking about it, you're left by yourself.

868
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 4: You can feel if it's a bad relationship, I don't

869
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 4: belong here, and can they create a way for you

870
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 4: to come out? And so that's in some way what

871
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 4: we try to create. Now you have to make distinctions

872
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 4: because some groups are very toxic and you might have

873
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 4: to escalate because of the a particular purse place of

874
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 4: where someone is in their life. But in QAnon is

875
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 4: a good example. You know, during the craze part of

876
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 4: before the election, we had about one hundred families contact us,

877
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 4: and of those hundred families, two of the people had

878
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 4: loved ones that were in mental hospitals as a result

879
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 4: of their involvement. So those were the ones we were

880
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 4: concerned about. And we made a prediction, you know, not

881
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 4: a psychic, that when the election occurred, about half the

882
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 4: people would disappear. And certainly when the election occurred, it

883
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 4: just sort of went away because they families weren't fighting

884
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 4: them about QAnon. Then when the thing happened in the

885
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 4: Electric College, about half of those people went away. Then

886
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 4: when the thing that happened on January sixth, about half

887
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 4: of those people smaller and smaller. And I think that

888
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 4: what I was going to say before is we all

889
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 4: are connected for different reasons, and we all leave for

890
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: different reasons. It's not one thing. It's not it's mind

891
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 4: controlled or abuse. It's different things for different people. For

892
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 4: me leaving Kim, it's a theological reason that's so obscure

893
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 4: that it would make no sense to anyone. But it's

894
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 4: the thing that I thought, this isn't accurate. And so

895
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 4: because that wasn't accurate, I could question other things. So

896
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 4: when I said to my I set through my sister's

897
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 4: sort of intervention, it took me a year to leave Tam.

898
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 4: I was doing interventions, helping people leave groups, but I

899
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 4: was still a tenah wow. But so what the intervention

900
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 4: When my sister was allowing me to ask questions that

901
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 4: I wasn't allowed to ask. And when I say it

902
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 4: was allowed to ask, I wasn't. I didn't allow myself

903
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 4: to ask because I knew if I asked those questions

904
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 4: or open those doors it was the house of cards

905
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 4: was likely to fall, and I loved it too much.

906
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 4: And so when I left about twenty three, twenty four

907
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 4: years old, I didn't tell my parents for three years

908
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 4: that I was out because I was too embarrassed. Because

909
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 4: when I got involved, the first thing they did was

910
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 4: take me to the priest. I got the priest involved

911
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 4: to learn to meditate. Their friend was a shrink. They

912
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 4: had me talk to their shrink friend. I got the

913
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 4: shrink to learn to meditate. Everybody, everybody that they got

914
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 4: me to talk to, I would get to meditate.

915
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, you just get them to joint it out.

916
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 3: Talk to this guy.

917
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 4: I got everybody, all my siblings, nephews, nieces. The only

918
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 4: person one sister.

919
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: And my father.

920
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 4: I couldn't get involved, and my father and I would

921
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 4: try to get him to learn, and he would say, son,

922
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 4: what you love doing is meditating, and what I love

923
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 4: doing is riding horses. And if I had ten extra

924
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 4: minutes in a day, I ride a horse. Do what

925
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 4: you love. This is what I love. He would never

926
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 4: make me wrong.

927
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 7: I love that I had.

928
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 4: The ego of a young man who just had had

929
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 4: a lot of pride and didn't want to say it

930
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 4: was wrong. So when I would go visit my parents,

931
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 4: my mom would say, Pat, it's four, we're going to

932
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 4: eat at six, you better go meditate because it was

933
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 4: two hours. And I would go sit in a room

934
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 4: and go, how do I tell them? I just couldn't

935
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 4: do it because in some sentence it wasn't safe. Yeah, emotionally.

936
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 4: And what we try to do is to create a

937
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 4: safe space for people to come back to. And that

938
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 4: might not be to the mom and dad, but it

939
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,720
Speaker 4: might be to the sister or aunt, uncle, a cousin,

940
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 4: a friend, someone that it's safe. So that's what we

941
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 4: really focus on in our work, is creating a safe

942
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 4: place and an easy glide path back to this world.

943
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: Do you typically work with people who are like they're

944
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: sort of already coming out of it and you help

945
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: them transition, or people who just have they're not they're

946
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: like in it still both.

947
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 4: I mean, I've been doing interventions for thirty eight years.

948
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 4: I've done a lot of these things, so there's a

949
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 4: whole host of them. But the thing that you know,

950
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 4: I learned is that most people leave, and they leave

951
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 4: on their own if we can just get out of

952
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 4: the way.

953
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 3: So when we go to X member conferences. You know,

954
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the people are walkaways. They're not programmed.

955
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 3: People have come to their own conclusions and they want

956
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,280
Speaker 3: to share their life experience and that helps us as interventionists.

957
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 3: But intervention doesn't necessarily mean, you know, certainly not the

958
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 3: programming model of the nineteen seventies, and something very different

959
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 3: from what people imagine it to be even today, like

960
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 3: a drug and alcohol model, which would be everyone sitting

961
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 3: around with their letter, you know, speaking out their truth

962
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: and how they've been hurt by the individual who's using substance.

963
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: It's quite different. It's really about respect and understand.

964
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 4: People get things out of groups, be it scientology or any.

965
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 7: Group of course, or why would you join?

966
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So I was an incredibly shy person that

967
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 4: was like im mobilizingly shy, and then I was kept

968
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 4: giving lectures before one hundred people. I mean something changed.

969
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 4: So I got something out of that experience. So we

970
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 4: have to acknowledge what people get out of it. And

971
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 4: sometimes families are toxic and sometimes relationships are toxic.

972
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: It is true that sometimes the cultic group is a

973
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 3: respite for individuals who are struggling with a very difficult

974
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 3: familial relationship or personal relationship, and that has to be

975
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: acknowledged and we have to sort that out. And that's

976
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 3: why we're always involved. We always involve a marriage and

977
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 3: family therapist and a psychiatrist in reviewing our caseload so

978
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 3: that we know are we going down the right path

979
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 3: with this family.

980
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: Right, you don't want to bring them back into another

981
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: abusive environment, exactly, yeah.

982
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 4: We don't want it. We want a safe place for

983
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 4: them to come out of.

984
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 3: And families need to do a lot of work on

985
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: their own independent of the group. And yet the group

986
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 3: involvement may bring it all to a head and bring

987
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: it to light. Whereas you know, this has been ongoing.

988
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 4: There's a concept of radical departures and the concept was

989
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 4: mostly written or talked about about the people that were

990
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 4: part of the Lebovisch movement in Brooklyn, the Hasidic Jews,

991
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 4: and these are there's ranged marriages, it's a little leftalists Orthodox.

992
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 4: So sometimes people will leave that and become a raj

993
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 4: niche this radical departure so that they can ultimately come

994
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 4: back and be themselves. And so groups can be used

995
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 4: for purposes. Interesting we find people who are gay joining

996
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 4: groups because then maybe join a celibate group because then

997
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 4: they't have to deal with that and their family. So

998
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,959
Speaker 4: it can be a stepping stone of understanding. So I'm

999
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 4: not trying to promote groups. I just think that it's

1000
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 4: very important that we look at the nuance and we

1001
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 4: try to understand for each individual, what is it the

1002
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 4: hooks for them? And is this something that's going to

1003
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 4: naturally end or is it something that we need to

1004
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 4: push along.

1005
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 2: The cult that I was raised in, it's like four

1006
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: generations back.

1007
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 6: My family's still in it.

1008
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: They're all, you know, my parents are in their sixties,

1009
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 2: my grandma's in her nineties, and it's.

1010
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 6: At a certain point do you just say it is

1011
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:31,839
Speaker 6: what it is?

1012
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 3: It is what it is if you have made peace

1013
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 3: in yourself and realize their limitations. Every family system, every

1014
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 3: individual relationship has its limitations, and we have to understand, Okay,

1015
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 3: what is the value of being with these people. Maybe

1016
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 3: they can get a little bit from me and I

1017
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: can get a little bit from them, and we can

1018
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 3: learn to peacefully coexist.

1019
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 4: I had a very close friend who was a Jehovah witness,

1020
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 4: and he was ostracized from his family because of his lifestyle.

1021
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 4: He got cancer and he was dying, and when he

1022
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 4: was dying, he wanted to be with his mother again,

1023
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 4: who had died, and he thought that the only way

1024
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 4: he could do that is if he was a Jehovah

1025
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 4: witness again. So I brought him to the hospital Jehovah

1026
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 4: Witness Bible because this is what was going to give

1027
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 4: him comfort in his life.

1028
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 7: Right beliefs can serve us?

1029
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And so you know, he had a very

1030
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 4: short time and if that's going to make him feel better,

1031
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 4: why do I need to unhook his obscure belief So

1032
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 4: I think we have to be careful when we do

1033
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 4: these things.

1034
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Truth is important

1035
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: up to a point. But if no one is being

1036
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: harmed and it would cause more harm to hit them

1037
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: with the truth, then we need to evaluate that individually.

1038
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: Not everyone should be pulled from their religion and.

1039
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 2: On a spectrum, Like my parents are on a spectrum

1040
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: that is not dangerous. They are living their best Oprah lives,

1041
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: like they're fine. Yeah, but there's other people in that

1042
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 2: religion who are not fine.

1043
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 6: So yeah, I guess it's figuring that out.

1044
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like how much harm is actually being cost.

1045
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what you have to evaluate. And I don't

1046
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: think Joe and I can tell a family of someone

1047
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:14,879
Speaker 4: who's being harmed.

1048
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: We want to pull that from the family. We want

1049
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 3: them to tell us. We don't want to impose on

1050
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 3: them what it is that they feel as is the

1051
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 3: harm being done by the group? Tell us we want

1052
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: to know because when we talk to your loved one,

1053
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 3: we want to make sure that we understand where you're

1054
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 3: coming from so that we can explain it to your son, daughter, husband, wife.

1055
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 4: And our approach to intervention. We're useful to someone who's

1056
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 4: in a group if we can help them get their

1057
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 4: family to understand what they believe. So if we can

1058
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,240
Speaker 4: serve a purpose because we can get them their family

1059
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 4: to understand something that they can't do, then we have value.

1060
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: Is that how you position yourself as not their enemy

1061
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: because you're like kind of a mediator with their family.

1062
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 7: Oh that's really interesting.

1063
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 4: Okay, there's the approach. And some people in our field

1064
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 4: have this approach of you know, they come in they say.

1065
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to give you a talking to. Sit right down,

1066
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 3: I'll tell you how it goes, and you put on

1067
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: your the programmer Kate, you know, you come in as

1068
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 3: a hero.

1069
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 4: So some people will come and say, there's six qualities

1070
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 4: of a cult. Here's your group has six qualities, you're

1071
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 4: a occult, you should leave, And that's just not us.

1072
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 3: We have done that if it was appropriate for that situation,

1073
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 3: but we've learned over the years that in most cases

1074
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: that's not the formula. There is no model specific to

1075
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 3: everyone leaving a group if they find themselves overwhelmed by

1076
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 3: group experience. It's going to be different for each individual

1077
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 3: how they leave, how they approach a group, and how

1078
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:46,479
Speaker 3: they leave the group.

1079
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: But basically attacking their beliefs directly, as we've talked about

1080
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,919
Speaker 1: quite a bit on the show, it's typically not the way.

1081
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 4: Look, Attacking beliefs is one thing, Exploring beliefs is another.

1082
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 4: And so if we can expand the conversation into a

1083
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 4: little bit larger dialogue, you know, expand it out to

1084
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 4: the origins of where that ideas come from, the roots

1085
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,840
Speaker 4: that we can talk about it in other ways. It

1086
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 4: doesn't make the person wrong. And so the idea that

1087
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 4: interventionists like jo or myself gets someone out of the

1088
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 4: group is absurd. The person gets themself out. All we

1089
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 4: do is sort of help provide a context, maybe some

1090
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 4: tools that for that person is the thing that maybe

1091
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 4: will help them make that decision. And so you know,

1092
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 4: my experience is what has succeeded. Some of this is

1093
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 4: personality driven because it's our personalities to be more nuanced.

1094
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: Our personalities are be you know, not so pushy, and

1095
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 4: we can be useful and people will trust you if

1096
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 4: you're honest with them about what you think. But you

1097
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 4: don't have to tell somebody everything you think is wrong

1098
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 4: with a group, and that's a mistake. I think that

1099
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 4: families make all the time.

1100
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 7: Right.

1101
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: It's almost like an approach of curiosity and empathy. It's

1102
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: not attacking the beliefs, but it's opening a dialogue with curiosity.

1103
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 7: Yes, so it's really a communication.

1104
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: So basically you guys are just expert communicators, is what

1105
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:20,320
Speaker 1: I'm hearing.

1106
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 4: I think that if you just look at diplomacy, that

1107
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 4: would be a little bit more of what we do.

1108
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 4: And interfaith dialogue. So we have a good friend who

1109
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 4: is a Catholic monk and he does interfaith dialogue with

1110
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 4: a number of groups. And I was asking me in

1111
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 4: a conversation one day and he was doing some interfaith

1112
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 4: dialogue with Islam. He's a Catholic, so Catholics believe Jesus

1113
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,919
Speaker 4: is God. The Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God.

1114
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 4: So there's a you know, a little conflict. So if

1115
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 4: they're sitting on the other side of the table, he said,

1116
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 4: if I see Jesus God, the other person says, no,

1117
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 4: he's not. We get nowhere, So we try to find

1118
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 4: the common ground, right, And I said, so what's the

1119
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 4: common ground? He said, When Mohammed had his vision, him

1120
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 4: and his brother went. They were against having iconography like

1121
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 4: crosses and icons in the churches, so Mohammed went around

1122
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 4: cutting off the crosses and getting rid of the icons.

1123
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 4: There was one icon that Muhammad's brother said could stay,

1124
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 4: and it was Mary holding the infant Jesus. So the

1125
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 4: common ground is that they have Mary, and Mary is

1126
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 4: a part of Islam. So that's where they start the

1127
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 4: perriers that we can agree on. So what we try

1128
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 4: to do is help families find the areas that they

1129
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 4: can agree on, because the biggest issue that I find

1130
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 4: is people who are concerned about someone else's beliefs. They

1131
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 4: don't know what to talk to them about. They think

1132
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 4: they have to give them a talking to. So can

1133
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 4: we create a collection of things that are safe things

1134
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 4: to talk about so that you can have a life

1135
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 4: for someone.

1136
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 6: That's so fascinating.

1137
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 7: People typically think of deprogramming as the seventies.

1138
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: Think, can you just like briefly tell us what that

1139
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: was and why it was not the correct I mean.

1140
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 3: You're talking about freedom of thought and you're holding people

1141
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 3: against their will. That's a fundamental Let's just start there.

1142
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 3: So I worked on a case where a kid was

1143
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 3: kidnapped off the street at gunpoint, taken to a compound

1144
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 3: in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania. I was the third

1145
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 3: exit counselor. At that point, I was as green as

1146
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 3: green could be. I had only been doing this work

1147
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 3: for two months. But the one who was supervising the

1148
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 3: case and this individual called me up and said, come

1149
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 3: come now, and I was like, okay, I'll come and help.

1150
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 3: I didn't know what I was walking into. I walked

1151
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 3: into the home. It was an upper level general in

1152
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 3: the military, a well known family in Washington, and their

1153
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 3: adopted son had joined a group that was a spin

1154
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 3: off of Jehovah Witnesses but was its own thing. There

1155
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 3: were only eight members. I mean it was very small.

1156
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 3: They had met in a Bible stud named Philadelphia. The

1157
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 3: kid was working at a clothing shop in Center City, Philadelphia.

1158
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 3: When he left work that night, there was a gun

1159
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 3: in his head and he was told to get in

1160
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 3: a van.

1161
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 6: Wow.

1162
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 3: He got in the van and he defecated himself. He

1163
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 3: was brought up to a retreat in the mountains of Pennsylvania.

1164
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 3: Five days later after the primary, the programmer, whose name

1165
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 3: I won't mention, was kicked out. The next person was

1166
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 3: a woman who's since passed away named Mary Alice Crono Logert,

1167
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 3: so I can mention her. She invited me to come

1168
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 3: and I got there and he didn't know. I had

1169
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 3: no idea. They said, he's up in the bedroom, so

1170
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 3: I go in. This is how it was. It was

1171
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 3: very You didn't do any background on the family. You

1172
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 3: had very little knowledge you were coming in. Really, you know, Green,

1173
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 3: you had no idea what to expect. You walked into

1174
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 3: the room and it's sunset and he's sitting in a chair, rocking,

1175
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 3: just struggling with where he found himself. He said, you know, Joe,

1176
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 3: he just started talking to me openly, and it was

1177
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,959
Speaker 3: blowing my mind because it didn't often happen that way.

1178
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 3: I don't care if my parents are right or if

1179
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 3: they're wrong. What happened to me is unconscionable. And at

1180
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 3: that moment I stood up. I said, let's see what

1181
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: we can do here. I went downstairs. I said to

1182
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 3: his family, your son has to leave, and I'm going

1183
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 3: to drive him home. I lived in Philadelphia, he lived

1184
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 3: in Philly. And the mother proceeded to flip out and

1185
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 3: roll around on the floor. It was all very dramatic,

1186
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:49,200
Speaker 3: screaming and hollering. Oh, it was like, you know, I

1187
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 3: never experienced anything since quite like that, So it's frozen

1188
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 3: in my memory. And for the two and a half

1189
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 3: hour ride back to Philadelphia, he just spoke with me.

1190
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 3: And the next time I ran into him in Center City, Philly,

1191
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 3: he was out of the group. I mean, he wanted

1192
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 3: nothing to do with it. Yet he also wanted nothing

1193
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 3: to do with his family, so that damage had been done.

1194
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 6: That is so heartbreaking. His family loved him so much too,

1195
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 6: and then they just totally fucked up.

1196
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 3: But their God, you set, that moment was very limited.

1197
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 3: Exactly the people who were their first contacts had suggested

1198
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 3: this would be the best experience for them, and they

1199
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:29,120
Speaker 3: knew no different.

1200
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:30,920
Speaker 7: Even I grew up thinking that that was how you

1201
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 7: got people outicles.

1202
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 8: You know.

1203
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, the history is this. So you're in about nineteen

1204
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 4: seventy three, Ted Patrick, his son gets involved with a group,

1205
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 4: and he went in and kidnapped him and got him out.

1206
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 4: So people said, oh, you got my kid out. The

1207
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:49,439
Speaker 4: groups at that time and this was the children of God.

1208
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 4: His groups were not keeping kids away from their families,

1209
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 4: but as soon as the groups family started kidnapping their kids,

1210
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 4: then the group started keeping the kids away from their families.

1211
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 4: So these become, right, you know, a very weird dynamic.

1212
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 4: So they more and more started hiding people that the

1213
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 4: programmers would go. They would kidnap someone and take them.

1214
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 4: Horrible things happened on these somebody I went to maharishi

1215
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 4: U with as student that the programmers thought that the

1216
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 4: way that she would know she was out was she

1217
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 4: had to lose her virginity, and so they had sucks.

1218
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

1219
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 3: The guys on the team, not the actual the programmers,

1220
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:31,080
Speaker 3: but security who were often low level criminals who were

1221
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 3: involved in this because you know, they.

1222
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, who are you going to get to go kidnap somebody.

1223
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1224
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 3: But there were actually some misplaced idealists in that group

1225
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,360
Speaker 3: as well. So it wasn't one or the other. It

1226
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 3: wasn't black and white.

1227
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 2: It's never black and white, is it. It's so it's

1228
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 2: so complicated.

1229
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 4: So this, this history in the seventies was what was

1230
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,560
Speaker 4: going on into the early eighties. And then there was

1231
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 4: a man whose name is Kevin Garvey, since deceased, and

1232
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 4: he came up with an idea of something he called

1233
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 4: ex accountsing, and that was this others approach. The programming was.

1234
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 4: The idea was that there was people got into groups

1235
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 4: because it was an emotional change, some kind of snapping moment,

1236
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 4: and that you needed an emotional reaction to get them out.

1237
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 4: Kevin came up with an idea that no, this is

1238
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 4: an intellectual thing. I mean, the only thing that's going

1239
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 4: to keep you out is your intellect. So he came

1240
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 4: up with a more dialogue. So it was a lot

1241
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 4: like the programming, except when no one was held against

1242
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 4: their will, and it evolved into something like a French salon.

1243
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 4: So when intervention would occur, there might be six of

1244
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 4: us go and we sit around.

1245
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,720
Speaker 3: Nobody was getting paid a whole lot of money. We

1246
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 3: would all just kind of pile.

1247
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:38,880
Speaker 4: In and you know, hang out and talk about philosophy

1248
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 4: and ideas.

1249
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 7: That sounds great.

1250
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 3: That's what informed our work today, the.

1251
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 4: Sort of the history. And then in the early nineties

1252
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 4: of a couple that were scientologists, somebody that was a

1253
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 4: very high ranking scientologist, the captain of Hubbard Ship. Actually

1254
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 4: I was working with them and we developed the approach

1255
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 4: that we use now, which is showing a lot more

1256
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 4: respect understanding that you know she she was. She had

1257
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 4: a horrible experience in scientology, but there was also good

1258
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 4: experiences she had, so both for true, So being the

1259
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 4: captain of Hubbard Ship, she could tell wonderful stories to people,

1260
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 4: like being in the Mediterranean, age being there with it

1261
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 4: being in the Mediterranean, and all of a sudden submarines

1262
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 4: come up because she sailed into a Russian submarine training zone.

1263
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,040
Speaker 3: Wow, and they the board of the ship and you know,

1264
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 3: this goofy scientologist. You know, they're all in the ship

1265
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: looking like military and the Russians call the captain for

1266
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:40,959
Speaker 3: the other Russian ship.

1267
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 4: So I want to see the captain and she went,

1268
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 4: you know, put on her full regalia. She came out

1269
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 4: and she goes a woman captain. Only in Russia we

1270
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,479
Speaker 4: had women captains, and she invited him onto the ship

1271
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 4: and they drank and they had a good time and

1272
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 4: every he was five. That's an amazing story. At age

1273
01:06:55,600 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 4: twenty four, she had learned by Hubbard to say a

1274
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 4: three hundred and sixty five foot ship across the ocean.

1275
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 4: He taught her how to do that.

1276
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 3: She's now eighty plus years old, lives in Florida, a

1277
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 3: beautiful woman and a dear friend.

1278
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 4: So that's true. And they also locked her up, you know,

1279
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 4: a chain locker, and did horrible things to.

1280
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 3: Her for having negative thoughts against LRH. So she had

1281
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 3: been at the pinnacle and had dropped down because he

1282
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 3: could no longer tolerate her individual growth, so he wanted

1283
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 3: to clamp her in.

1284
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 4: Right, Well, there's lots of reasons why, but the point

1285
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 4: I was driving at is that both things are true.

1286
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 4: Abuse and these amazing.

1287
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: Stories, right, So you have to technology these conflicting truths.

1288
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 4: They're both real. And so if we go in and

1289
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 4: say that it's all bad, well for this woman, it

1290
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 4: wasn't all bad, right, because she had amazing experiences. Because

1291
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 4: what twenty four year old young woman in nineteen sixty

1292
01:07:55,320 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 4: five becomes a captain of a three hundred sixty'station and

1293
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 4: all these things because Hubbard taught her that, but also abuse.

1294
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 4: So life is like that, and groups are like that,

1295
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 4: and we just have to acknowledge the good part. So

1296
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,600
Speaker 4: if you can understand this is how we start off,

1297
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 4: and appreciate what someone loves about a group, what it

1298
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 4: means to them, then I believe you have the right

1299
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 4: to criticize. So if we look at it as art,

1300
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 4: So in my house there's art or all all over

1301
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 4: the place. And if you came into my house and said,

1302
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 4: that's an ugly piece of painting, why do you have

1303
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 4: that on your wall, I would say, you know, get

1304
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 4: the hell out of here. But if you looked at

1305
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 4: it and said, that's an interesting piece of art, I

1306
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 4: wonder why the artists used that stroke. That's you know,

1307
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 4: that's confusing to me. If you could see what I

1308
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 4: appreciated about something, then I think you have the right

1309
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 4: to criticize. But if you don't see what I appreciate

1310
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 4: about this art, the aesthetic, then I don't think you

1311
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 4: really have the right to criticize.

1312
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: I feel like this is there's just so much wisdom

1313
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: and that that we can bring into the rest of

1314
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: our lives in general.

1315
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 6: I was going to say, thanks for saving my relationship

1316
01:08:58,400 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 6: with my family.

1317
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 5: Cool hour.

1318
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: I feel like I can talk to you all forever. Well,

1319
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: if you're ever in Los Angeles, let's up. Let's get

1320
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 1: a lunch please.

1321
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 3: We used to We used to be before COVID all

1322
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 3: the time before we were there all the time.

1323
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, let us know if you're ever back. This

1324
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 6: is just so interesting.

1325
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:19,640
Speaker 1: I seriously feel like I want to talk to you

1326
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:21,400
Speaker 1: for hours longer, and I wish we had time to

1327
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 1: do that.

1328
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:24,639
Speaker 7: Thank you so much for talking to us.

1329
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

1330
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you guys.

1331
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,720
Speaker 7: And where do people find your find information about your work?

1332
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 4: The website is cult mediation dot com.

1333
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 7: Oh wow, look at that easy peas all right? Awesome.

1334
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 3: And cult News one oh one dot com is where

1335
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 3: you'll find information about groups. Cultnews one oh one dot com.

1336
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,240
Speaker 7: Awesome. Thanks so much, guys.

1337
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 6: Wonderful your day.

1338
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: Okay, they are so good, They're so good. Okay, here's

1339
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: the question, give me, give me. We talked a bit

1340
01:09:56,120 --> 01:10:01,519
Speaker 1: about TM transcendental meditation. Megan, would you or have you

1341
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: ever joined TM.

1342
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 2: Of course, of course I did Lola, and I feel

1343
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 2: guilty about not doing it every single day, but they

1344
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 2: helped lessen the load of that. You meditate for twenty

1345
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:17,840
Speaker 2: minutes twice a day, and you have a mantra that

1346
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 2: you repeat and I have add out the fucking ass,

1347
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,599
Speaker 2: and it's really just me sitting there for forty minutes

1348
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 2: a day doing nothing different than if I was just

1349
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 2: watching TV. So that was my experience. Although I had

1350
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 2: a wonderful teacher. I love him so much, and I

1351
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,040
Speaker 2: had him on my other podcast and he's brilliant, and

1352
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:44,559
Speaker 2: so many people had amazing results. So I think it's

1353
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 2: just kind of knowing your brain. But you shouldn't join

1354
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 2: a cult of it or anything. But if it helps

1355
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 2: you meditate, that's cool.

1356
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1357
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:57,360
Speaker 1: I don't like the proprietary approach to meditation, like we

1358
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 1: are you going to give you the mantra, this is

1359
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: the way you have to do it?

1360
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:02,120
Speaker 5: That always like raises my redflex.

1361
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1362
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,520
Speaker 2: I mean I understand people saying this is one technique

1363
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 2: that you might enjoy, but there are a lot of

1364
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 2: people who go really far with it. Of like there's

1365
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 2: some Oh Show quote which I can't believe people still

1366
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 2: quote oh show, since he's just like a notorious criminal.

1367
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 6: But it's like.

1368
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,679
Speaker 2: You seek your enlightenment like your house is on fire

1369
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 2: and your mother is inside of it. And I kind

1370
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,400
Speaker 2: of heard not from my teacher in particular, but a

1371
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 2: lot of the community around that is like this is

1372
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 2: the most important thing.

1373
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 6: You have to find the uppercase as self. And it

1374
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 6: can get a little fucked up.

1375
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,800
Speaker 1: And as Patrick and Joe told us, there's stuff when

1376
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: it's an organization like that, it's important to be really

1377
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,759
Speaker 1: mindful because, for example, you didn't know about the belief

1378
01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:51,200
Speaker 1: that levitation was literally going to save the world, not

1379
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 1: at all, not at on that at all, and that's

1380
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:58,200
Speaker 1: like not something they're advertising. So you know, yeah, yeah,

1381
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: I gotta what Jack calls skeptical hippo eyes about it.

1382
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:04,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1383
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:07,000
Speaker 2: I just went to a roller skating party and saw

1384
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 2: a really cute guy and did a couple of roller

1385
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 2: skate rounds with him and then realized he was a

1386
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,639
Speaker 2: meditation teacher, and we went on a date and learned

1387
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:15,200
Speaker 2: to meditate.

1388
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 6: It was great.

1389
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 5: I will just add a disclaimer here.

1390
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:21,680
Speaker 1: I love you, David Lynch, and I'm so sorry that

1391
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 1: I don't like your meditation style, and I really want

1392
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 1: you to put me.

1393
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 2: In something David Lynch just like and share the podcast

1394
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:31,000
Speaker 2: at least please.

1395
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:32,240
Speaker 6: We're not hating.

1396
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 5: I'm such a fan. I'm such a fan.

1397
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:38,920
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, it sucks that so many people are

1398
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:43,320
Speaker 2: so deep in and there's these secret little aspects of

1399
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,760
Speaker 2: it that they're not sharing. But whatever, maybe they don't

1400
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: even know. That wouldn't shock me. Honestly. I feel like

1401
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,360
Speaker 2: a lot of the guys I know in Hollywood who

1402
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 2: are super into shit have no idea what they're actually

1403
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 2: talking about.

1404
01:12:54,080 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 5: Oh, I mean, for sure I was seeing most of them.

1405
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 2: You guys, we hope you have a great week. We

1406
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: can't wait to see you here next time. Remember to

1407
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 2: follow your gut, watch out for red flavs

1408
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 5: And never ever trust me, right,