1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to five hundred Greatest Songs of podcast based on 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Rolling Stones. Hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversialist I'm Britney Spanos. 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: And I'm Rob Sheffield were here to shed light on 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: so great. And this week we are talking about Jeff 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,959 Speaker 2: Buckley Grace. 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Grace ranks at three ninety four on the New List 8 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: and his cover of Leonard cohen tally Lullia was actually 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: on the original list at two fifty nine. I'm a 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: big Jeff Buckley fan. I'm very excited to talk about this. 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: But do you remember the first time that you heard 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: the album Grace or encountered who Jeff Buckley was. 13 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it took a long time with me though. It 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: was an album that really and a musician who really 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: had to create his own audience because he just didn't 16 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 2: fit into anything. He didn't you know, he didn't fit 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: into any radio format. He didn't fit into any genre. Really, 18 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: genres are just funny words like as fiance would say, 19 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: and that for Jeff Buckley, there wasn't really an audience 20 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: that was ready to hear what he was doing. So Grace, 21 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: the song and Grace the album both took years for me. Yeah, 22 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 2: Where's for You? It was very different. 23 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like by the time that I was 24 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: a teenager, there was so much lore around Jeff Buckley, 25 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: so much of this mystery. I mean, he died very 26 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: tragically when he was thirty. He drowned in a river 27 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: while he was in Memphis about to record a second album, 28 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: and you know there's all that kind of just like 29 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: this tumblerrification of like his life because he was also 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: just like super hot, and like all the songs were 31 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: about like yearning and longing and love and like, you know, 32 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: for teen girls, that's like ultimate musical bait. Here's this 33 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: guy who died tragically young and also sings just about 34 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: like being so in love. So I feel like by 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: the time that I was a teenager like that, like 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: there was already this like legacy built around Jeff Buckley 37 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: that was very much on the level on par with 38 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: like Elliot Smith, Kurt Kobaning, Like that was you know, 39 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: kind of being just like amplified by teenage fans. So well, 40 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: I'd heard Hollylujo when I was in middle school, and 41 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: then Grace I got into later, and again it was 42 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: a big part of just like being on Tumblr and 43 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: live journal and all of those kind of sad teen 44 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: spaces that were sort of sharing his music. So I 45 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: was really obsessed with with Grace. 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: Then you mentioned live journal and Tumblr. He didn't really 47 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: become a star until until later when stuff like that 48 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: was invented. But he was one of the last pre 49 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: internet rock stars when you know, when he wasn't even 50 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 2: really a star, because I think having those communities online 51 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 2: for people to engage, I think he was one of 52 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: the first examples of an artists whose reputation just started 53 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: to really soar once people like that could find each other, 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: because it was just really different when he was like 55 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: getting no airplay was when he was around. 56 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: Itself is just I think, so brilliant, so well done. 57 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean, he's such an incredible singer. Like his there's 58 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: a few covers on there, but the original songs as 59 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: well are just like absolutely just gorgeous and so poetic 60 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: and intense. He's just very intense guy again part of 61 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: the appeal. But yeah, like I think, you know, it's 62 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: just one of those things where there was so little 63 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: of him to listen to, so it's kind of like 64 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: piecing together what could have been and who he was 65 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: and all of that. You know, it's a similar story 66 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: with his father as well. His father is the Folks 67 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: singer Tim Buckley, who passed away when he was twenty 68 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: eight and so passed away when Jeff was pretty young, 69 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: and Jeff was raised by his mother and his stepfather 70 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: in California. There are sort of those parallels of like 71 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: the father and son kind of tragic young death and 72 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: sort of limited kind of output type of happening there. 73 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: That's also kind of adds so many more layers to 74 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: that story as well. And of course the song Grace 75 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: that ended up making the list. That song is a 76 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: song that was written with Gary Lucas the guitarist, and 77 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: it was based off of an instrumental that Gary Lucas 78 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: had written. And the song again is like such a 79 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: perfect example of like Jeff Buckley's writing style, which is 80 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: it's a very simple premise that is like so over 81 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: the top and so intense and so like just like 82 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: peak yearning. It's just about him saying goodbye to his 83 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: girlfriend at the airport on a rainy day. And I mean, 84 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: if you just kind of like listen to the first 85 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: the song the first time, You're like, is that it's 86 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: just so much deeper and so much more intense. And 87 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's also, like he said, it's about not 88 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: feeling so bad about your own mortality when you have 89 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: true love, which like sure man like, but like love 90 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: that eat it up, like I'm an intense way of 91 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: talking about like a very mundane sort of activity. 92 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: Who doesn't chat about that at the airport. It's like, 93 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: let me stop at the cinnabuns and let's talk about 94 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 2: mortality love. You mentioned Hallelujah, which is of course his 95 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: most famous cover and a cover that blew up before 96 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: the original was anywhere near as famous. It really made 97 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: the original. But his version of that that leads into 98 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: the Smiths I Know It's over. That was a real 99 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: turning point for me in terms of learning to hear 100 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: what he was doing, because the first time I heard it, 101 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 2: I said, you got to be kidding. You're taking the 102 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: song that was already one of the most melodramatic songs 103 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: ever recorded for other human beings to listen to, and 104 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 2: nobody ever accused that song of not being histrionic enough, 105 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: and he took it to such mind blowingly hyperbolic melodramatic 106 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: heights that it really did seem like, Okay, he's overdoing 107 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: it so much that he makes it sound like, no, 108 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 2: this is what the song is meant to be when 109 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: it goes into that falsetto and completely leaves the song behind, 110 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: and it was really kind of a revelation of what 111 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: he was doing. 112 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: I will say he has one of my favorite falsettos 113 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: in music because there's also really great sort of deep 114 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: cut from him that I don't remember what exactly. I 115 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: think it's from some just like compilation of like unreleased 116 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: music that had been put out posthumously called Everybody Here 117 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: Wants You. Great song. His falsetto on that is absolutely stunning. 118 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: It's like kind of like a it's like so unlike 119 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: most of Grace where it's just like this like sort 120 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: of like groovy, sexy R and B song, like a 121 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: little bit more restrained musically than some of like the 122 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: kind of like bigger rock moments on Grace. But his 123 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: false seto on that is so perfect, Like I love 124 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: and I just like love his voice and it's very 125 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: clear like how much how many male singers have really 126 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: tried to evoke and like channel the Jeff Buckley musical 127 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: spirit in the decade since seems very very obvious how 128 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: how much of that influence has existed. 129 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: God, you are so right about that. It's so funny that. 130 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: I mean, it's striking for me because personally, I don't 131 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: remember singers going for that kind of falsetto before. He did, 132 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 2: certainly not like in that you know, rock kind of context. Yeah. 133 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: Every time I hear, especially like a young male singer 134 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: with an acoustic guitar do that kind of falsetto, I 135 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: just think this is something really Jeff Bucket kind of invented. 136 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 2: It isn't just something that he demonstrated to the world, 137 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: but that kind of singing, he took it so far 138 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: over the top compared to anybody who did that kind 139 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: of thing before. 140 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I hear a lot of him 141 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: in Hosier right now. I feel like that. I got 142 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: really into Hosier last year and I was like, I 143 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: was like, why do I like Hoser so much? And 144 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, because he reminded me so 145 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: much of Jeff Buckley, and I feel like I hear 146 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: a lot of that. I guess maybe that's also kind 147 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: of where I'm seeing like a lot of the crossover too, 148 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: and like the Jeff Buckley sort of continuing popularity in 149 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: his music is like a lot of these sort of 150 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: male singer songwriters like Hoser, like a Lewis Capaldi or 151 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: even thinking of like Nile Horn's like I guess with 152 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: more So I was like first album and sort of 153 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: totally you know, those kind of more guitar driven. I 154 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: think a lot of those A lot of times people 155 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: want to put them more closely to like John Mayer, 156 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: who is also very Jeff Buckley influenced, but it is 157 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: very clearly seems to go back to like Jeff more 158 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: so than even that, Like it seems like to go 159 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: back to that sort of like genre bending, soulful kind 160 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: of like pop rock sound of his. 161 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah to me, no as well like another like you know, 162 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: hitting those high notes and doing that in a totally 163 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: unconventional sort of style. 164 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I feel like we're like constantly in waves 165 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: of like irony and earnestness and like pop culture of 166 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: like it's like either a really like ironic era or 167 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: like a very earnest era. And I feel like we're 168 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: in that sort of like earnest moment again. And we 169 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: could hear that in like the music that's really popular 170 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: right now, we can hear that, and like you know, 171 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: the artists are blowing up, and I feel like the 172 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 1: music that's also we're nostalgic for. And I think Jeff 173 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: Buckley being sort of like this kind of perfect emblem 174 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: of earnestness kind of is always sort of a moment 175 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: for him to kind of come back or for people 176 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: to discover him or rediscover him in some way. So 177 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: I feel like he's kind of that's maybe why there's 178 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: kind of a new wave of fans coming in. 179 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: That's so fascinating. So an age of earnestness is an 180 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: age that's open to Jeff Buckley. 181 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: They're more ready than ever for Jeff. 182 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: Buy if I'm hearing you correctly, Jeff Buckley is bigger 183 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 2: now than he's ever been, which I think it's fair 184 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: to say. I mean, yeah, just gets more and more. 185 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 2: He hits deeper with people every time. 186 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think especially because it's so it's less so 187 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: about Hallelujah right now, Like obviously that's sure the like 188 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: Hallelujah sort of I guess it would it could be 189 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: called revival in the two thousands or like the Hallelujah 190 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: like popularity that was happening in the two thousands was 191 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean, such a massive, massive moment. But I think 192 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: right now it does seem like, you know, I've been 193 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: hearing a lot of Jeff Buckley and like television and 194 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: movies and like high fidelity of the show. Also like 195 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: had Jeff Buckley featured prey pop, Yeah, and a Jeff 196 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: Buckley inspired character on there, yes, which like was great. 197 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: I love that show. And yeah, I mean just like 198 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: I feel like it's like happening a little bit. Maybe 199 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: maybe I'm also just like I'm paying closer attention to 200 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: the Jeff Buckley vibes that are being thrown my way 201 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: than most people. But there's a lot, So there's there's 202 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of Jeff Buckley, you know. 203 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: There's a lot out there, and that he just gets more. 204 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: They reach a point where it seems like, well, this 205 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: music from this era is more popular now than anybody 206 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: could have imagined, and yet just keeps getting more and 207 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: more popular every year. 208 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Next, we'll be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer 209 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: David Brown. We are joined now by Rolling Stone senior 210 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: writer David Brown, who also is the author of the 211 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: book Dream Brother, The Lives and Music of Jeff and 212 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: Tim Buckley. Thank you so much, David for being here today. 213 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: I'm thrilled with you guys. 214 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks David, And I'm curious what prompted your exploration 215 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: into Jeff and Tim Buckley's lives originally. 216 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: Well, I was really fortunate to catch Jeff Buckley live 217 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: very early in his career, when he was playing at 218 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: this complete kind of hole in the wall coffee house 219 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 3: called Shane on the Lower East Side, when there was 220 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 3: just a lot of buzz about him in the early nineties. 221 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 3: It was funny. I kept hearing like from people I 222 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,959 Speaker 3: worked with at another outlet, like have you had Tim 223 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: Buckley's son is playing in this bar and you should 224 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: change He's amazing, you should check him out. And I 225 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: thought Tim Buckley had a son. I had no idea 226 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: and anyway, so I was lucky to see him a 227 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 3: couple of times there and interview him early on for 228 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 3: another rival outlet at the time. It was probably one 229 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: of his first interviews, and he was just a fascinating 230 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 3: combination of someone who was both kind of intense and 231 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: almost mythopoetic in his way and also just totally like 232 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: goofy and funny. The year later, Grace came out and 233 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: I you know, kind of lived up to those expectations 234 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 3: of what we thought he could bring. And so yeah, 235 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 3: that's basically what brought me all into it. 236 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: And what was I mean, I know, there was so 237 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: much of that buzz happening with those shows and everything 238 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: that even leading up to there was record execs trying 239 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: to sign him and just you know, what was it 240 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: like to watch him live? What was that experience of 241 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: what his live shows were lated at that time? 242 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 3: It was kind of amazing because Shane was probably about 243 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 3: the size of this room. It was an incredibly small space, 244 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 3: didn't even have a sign out front, you know. He 245 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 3: would just sit there against this brick wall with his 246 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 3: white electric guitar, didn't have a band or anything. And 247 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: what was kind of amazing was he didn't really have 248 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: a whole lot of original songs at that point. He 249 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: was never a super prolific songwriter, but he only had 250 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: a few songs. So he dipped into his own knowledge 251 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: of music, whether it was the stuff he grew up with, 252 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: the records he grew up with in his house and 253 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: his mother's or stepfather's record collections, and it was kind 254 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: of his way of trying to find out who he was. 255 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: So you might hear one of his own songs. Then 256 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 3: you'd hear like an Edith paf song or some obscure 257 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 3: Elton John song or a Bad Brains song or Led 258 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 3: Zepplin's Night Flight, or they'd be like, where's this coming from? 259 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: You know. We had this incredible sense of history about him. 260 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: And what was fascinating too was again in the context 261 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 3: of the early nineties alternative rock scene, which he wasn't 262 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 3: really part of, but that's what it was. There was 263 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 3: nothing cheeky or ironic about his covers. It wasn't like 264 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: someone doing a cover of who was it that did? 265 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 3: I'm Easy with that faith no More? You know, or 266 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: they would do a cover yeah line of Witchi's and 267 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: you think, well, is this done with a little wink like? 268 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: You know, that wasn't the case. No matter what Jeff 269 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 3: was doing. He was intensely invested in that song, Hank 270 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 3: Williams song, Billie Holiday song, you know, whatever it was. 271 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 3: He just was fully invested in it. And it actually 272 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 3: turned some people off back things because they people would 273 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: say it seems kind of corny. He was like, he 274 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 3: was so like earnest and sincere, and that wasn't cool 275 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: back then, but that's that's kind of what made him 276 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 3: great and made him stand out. 277 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: At the time, it was wild to see that sort 278 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: of mystique that he built. At the time you wrote 279 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: your book, that hadn't really come together yet because that 280 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: was so soon after this story. I think the book 281 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: was like a big part of building that posthumous mystique. 282 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: But really, like while he was alive, it was very 283 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: different in terms of, like you said, people had very 284 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: strongly mixed feelings about him. Also because what he did 285 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 2: was so musically unique and so emotionally intense that, like 286 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: you said, it was a real almost visceral turnoff for 287 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: a lot of people. 288 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: It kind of was. But you know, even then, I 289 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: remember interviewing someone, a photographer and good friend of his 290 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: name Mary Sear, who took the cover of the Grace album, 291 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: and she said, even when, you know, when she knew him, 292 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: there were there were always two Jeffs with her. There 293 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: was regular Jeff, who was this kind of cut up 294 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 3: class clown. He was a brilliant mimic. He could in 295 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 3: between songs at Shane or even at his own concerts 296 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,479 Speaker 3: later he might suddenly do like a version of Kashmir 297 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 3: sped up to forty five, you know, you know, and 298 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 3: just not the whole thing. Just so he had that 299 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: jokey side of him. And then there was what she 300 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 3: called the mythological Jeff, and that was the guy who 301 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: was obsessed with feelings of mortality and legacy and family 302 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: burden and the record company, you know, record industry pressure, 303 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 3: and you know, this kind of like darkness and not 304 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 3: darkness but more of a heaviness. And he kind of 305 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: went back and forth between him, so that mythic side 306 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: was there already, you know, and I think he cultivated 307 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 3: it in a way, you know. And romantis and that's 308 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 3: a great word, it's the perfect word, because he really, 309 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: he really had that in his He had this this view, 310 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 3: this kind of very spiritual, intense view of music as 311 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: this holy ritual. And now that sounds so corny just 312 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: to say that, but he really did. He saw it 313 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: as this calling, and not just because his father was 314 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: Tim Buckley. He kind of saw it as his souvation 315 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: or something and all that. How did you hear his music? 316 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: It was the Hollylijah cover. That was a song that 317 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: was played on radio a lot. It was played on 318 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: alternative radio a lot. Was that song, wow, the first 319 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: song that ever made me like actively start sobbing, Like 320 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: it was just like his performance was so emotional. I'd 321 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: heard Halleluiah before because of Shrek, obviously famously going back 322 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: to the roots, but I just never heard a song 323 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: performed like that before, and it was that was the 324 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: first song, And I probably heard it in middle school, 325 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: and I think then later got more into grace and 326 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: sort of that. I think just listening to a lot 327 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: of like I was very into twenty seven club or 328 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: and like that is, you know, very high school thing 329 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: to become very infatuated with. 330 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: And it's one of the only, if you guys agree 331 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: with me, one of the only covers of a Leonard 332 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 3: Cohen song that's better than Leonard Cohen's cover. 333 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: It's definitely any unique one in terms of the history 334 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: of that song. Like it's really weird to even contemplate 335 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: how obscure that song was before Jeff Buckley saying it 336 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: that this song was just sitting there and nobody had 337 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: any idea that it was a classic. Allen Light's book 338 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 2: about that whole history of that song is so fascinating. 339 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: And he only heard it through the Lender Cone tribute album. 340 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: It was John Cale right, the John Kyle version. That's 341 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: how Jeff heard it. He didn't even I'm not sure 342 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 3: he even knew a Lender Cohen version right away. 343 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I knew when he died it was so striking. 344 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: It was May ninety seven, and it seemed like his 345 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: story was just beginning. So it seemed really because like 346 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: Grace was an album that I don't know if you 347 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: remember it this way, but for a lot of people, 348 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: they thought of it as very promising album that it 349 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: like that it wasn't his masterpiece. It was, you know, 350 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 2: a statement from somebody who was about to develop and 351 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 2: go different places. 352 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: Right. 353 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 2: It didn't seem like one of those tortured artists eyes 354 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,479 Speaker 2: young kind of stories. It seemed like very wrong for 355 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 2: his history and his potential. 356 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 3: I mean, it was shocking as it should be. 357 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 358 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: I think what you're getting at in a way was 359 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 3: that what was so fascinating about Jeff was his incredible 360 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 3: range of influences. And you hear it on Grace where 361 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,479 Speaker 3: he does these sort of kind of mystical almost Indian 362 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 3: music things. Then he'll do a Nina Simone song, and 363 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 3: he'll do Eternal Life, which was the closest thing to 364 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 3: alternative rock on that album, and all those influences that 365 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 3: we talked about earlier. He seemed like, right from the beginning, 366 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: one of those legacy artists, and that's what I think 367 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 3: intrigued him at Columbia Records to sign him. But he 368 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 3: seemed like one of these rare people who would come 369 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: along and would have a career, like a Bob Dylan 370 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 3: or a Van Morrison or some of these other people 371 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: he worshiped too, or Elvis Costello. These are all heroes 372 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: of his who had these long careers that had hills 373 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 3: and valleys commercially, but they would just kind of follow 374 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 3: their muse and like, I'll make a record like this, 375 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: maybe a record like that. And this record he was making, 376 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 3: the second record that never finished. You know, it was 377 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: part of that process. They weren't quite sure what it 378 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 3: was they recorded with Tom Verlaine that didn't quite work out, 379 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: and he was gonna do more of an indie ish 380 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 3: kind of record, and it was part of that whole 381 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 3: exploration we and it was exciting. You were like, where's 382 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: this guy going to go? It didn't seem like he 383 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 3: wasn't a one note artist, and so that was really 384 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: added to the tragedy, like, oh man, this is someone 385 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: we could we could have been listening to for decades 386 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 3: like some of those other people, and they haven't cut 387 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: short like that. 388 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: And of course Grace the album made five hundred Greatest 389 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: Album's list and Grace's song makes the five hundre Gras 390 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: Songs list. It actually replaced Hallylia, which was on the 391 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: original list. I'm curious what your reaction was to seeing 392 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: that song from the album make the list. 393 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 3: I was a little surprised that Grace would have been 394 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 3: the one, but then again, I mean there are first 395 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 3: of there are so many great ones. I would have 396 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: almost thought last Goodbye because it was kind of the 397 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: hit closest he had to a hit. I'm glad though, 398 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 3: that it's Grace because it's one of his own original 399 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: it's an original song. It's not just a cover, not 400 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: just a cover. But it's great to see a song 401 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: he co wrote with Gary Lucas the great guitar player 402 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 3: on the list. And I think there's something about Grace 403 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: the more. I thought about it on my way to 404 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 3: this podcast that it's a great perfect song for him 405 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: to be on this because it does it has that 406 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 3: all in quality to it in the vocal, the way 407 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: his voice soars up and down. It's quote unquote rock, 408 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: but it's not really kind of traditional rock in a way. 409 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: It's a great showcase for his voice. And of course 410 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 3: it has like these references to drowning and all these 411 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: things that came up that you will think back on 412 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 3: now and are kind of wild. He has several songs 413 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 3: that mentioned Nightmares by the Sea, and we're not intentional, 414 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 3: but I think there's something about this about Grace that 415 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 3: the song that actually does kind of encapsulate a lot 416 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 3: of what he does. I think one of the things 417 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 3: about the Grace record, and I'd like, curious hear you 418 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: talk about this Rob too, it just even though it 419 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: came out in ninety four, it doesn't feel like a 420 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 3: nineties album. He's like one of those people, like like 421 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 3: a Nick Drake or something where it's sort of timeless, 422 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 3: and I think maybe that's part of the reason people 423 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 3: still come back to it. 424 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, as you pointed out earlier, it was very 425 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: out of step with its times in terms of the 426 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: attitude toward music. It really was a kind of album 427 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: that people, I think people especially in the rock world, felt, 428 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 2: haven't we just escaped this era? Where like it was 429 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: all focused on the artist's you know, sincerity and really 430 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: meaning it as a you know, smokescreen for really inadequate skills, right, 431 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: which is, you know, rightly wrong with the cliche people 432 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: had about about a lot of eras that had preceded 433 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: that end. Like you said, there was something corny about 434 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 2: what he did. So it's really weird that his image 435 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: and his audience in his lifetime was so different from 436 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: what it became in the two thousands. He hated to 437 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: use a cliche like ahead of his time, but there 438 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 2: was no audience that existed. He had to really conjure 439 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 2: an audience into existence with his music just because there 440 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: wasn't really an audience for what he did. That there 441 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 2: was no radio format you could play any of those songs. 442 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: On, no live journal yet. 443 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was no live journal yet. Yes, And the 444 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: genre of the slightly overwrought type of Jeff Buckley fan 445 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 2: like did not exist yet. He had to conjure that 446 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 2: there's nobody you could put him on a double bill 447 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: with Right. There's no festival where you could put him 448 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: on between two other people. What he did for better 449 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: for worse was very much unique and it didn't fit 450 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: into any format. He didn't have a strong music critic 451 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 2: following if I remember correctly. He had music critics obviously, 452 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 2: you who were strongly in his camp, but there was 453 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 2: an awful lot of you know, people heard pomposity and 454 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: corniness in his music, which had a lot to do 455 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: with the times. 456 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: Right if he freaked out when his first EP came 457 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: out live at Shane and it was reviewed in a 458 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: newspaper I think it was New News Day, along with 459 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 3: a Michael Bolton record, and like he was I think 460 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 3: at work at the Grace album at the time. They 461 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 3: had to actually stop working for the day because it 462 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 3: was so upsetting to him that and they were lumped 463 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: in with you know, basically like pretend white soul singers, 464 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 3: and he was just like, oh my god. But there 465 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: were people, you're right, I mean, there are people thought 466 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: that he was he was too over the top vocally, 467 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: which he could be, you know, in his way, because 468 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 3: he had that skill like Freddie Mercury. Comparisons or whatever. 469 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 3: But you know, you're right, I mean there really wasn't. 470 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 3: I mean, Grace only sold when by the time he 471 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 3: passed away, it only sold about one hundred and eighty 472 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: thousand copies, which in the CD era, now that's a lot. 473 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: Wow. 474 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 3: He sold one hundred and eight thousand in nineteen ninety 475 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 3: seven issue. That wasn't a lot. It was it was 476 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: a middling commercial success. But those one hundred and eighty 477 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: thousand people or the bulk of them, just like loved 478 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: that record, you know. I mean, I've been so many 479 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 3: people like that was a life changing record. It kind 480 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 3: of spoke to him and even the way it was 481 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: made and recorded, I mean his voice was so well 482 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: recorded and just like so clear and you could hear everything, 483 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: and it just spoke to people a lot, and and 484 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 3: you know, yeah, as you say, Rob, there really wasn't. 485 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: There really wasn't a format for it at the time. 486 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: You know, it's funny to see him if you can 487 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 3: go on YouTube and you see like video interviews he 488 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 3: did at the time with these like alternative local alternative 489 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: stations and he's it's kind of funny. 490 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 2: I remember seeing about one hundred and twenty minutes and 491 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: I was like, why is this guy even on one 492 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 2: hundred and three minutes. He didn't fit with anything they 493 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: were talking about. He didn't have any of that sort 494 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: of sense of humor or sensibility. It was just awkward 495 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: and wrong, and it really felt like, you know, the 496 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: record company really wanted him somewhere on MTV and there 497 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: was literally no place to put him. VH one wasn't 498 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: taking him, and you know they had to. They're like, sure, 499 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: we'll put you on one hundred and twenty minutes. It 500 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 2: was that kind of misfit sort of thing that he's 501 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: now so universal in a very real sense, but he 502 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: had to create that audience that would be his because 503 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: that audience didn't. I think of that as a record 504 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 2: where musicians being so much more into it than anybody else. 505 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: And you know that there wasn't an airplay support for 506 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 2: that album, There wasn't a press support, there wasn't really 507 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: an industry support. But actual musicians could hear what he 508 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: was doing and they're really the only ones. 509 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 3: And you see that in the impact that the people 510 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 3: have come since him who evoke him on more or another, 511 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 3: whether it's Coldplay or Muse or you can make a 512 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 3: whole list of like Jeff Buckley ish kind of singers. 513 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: That kind of speaks to his legacy as well, that 514 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 3: he was so highly regarded. I remember interviewing Chris Martin 515 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 3: from Coldplay right after, not long after he died, and 516 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: Chris actually like, like the second album Sketches, that's just 517 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: from My Sweetheart the Drunk better than Grace. He was like, 518 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: which I thought it was interesting. He was really into him, 519 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 3: but he thought that record was better. But I think 520 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: you see his Jeff's legacy in that way. It's it's 521 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: not not necessarily measured commercially, but in the way he's 522 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 3: endured as kind of an influence and his sort of 523 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: mythical romantic figure. Was he the last mythical romantic rock act? 524 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 3: To throw that out there, maybe, yeah, I don't know 525 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: Jack White, I mean, I don't know. 526 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: Who there's a Roman, but it's but it's very different 527 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: part of it. I mean something about Jeff Bucke, he 528 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 2: was not like, he did not aspire to ordinary dudeness, 529 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 2: like in a way that male rock stars, especially if 530 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: that era, were supposed to be very like, but that 531 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: he had that cultivated that kind of mystical or you know, 532 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 2: to detract her pseudomistical sort of or like. 533 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 3: A male cabaret star, yeah, cabaret singer in a way. 534 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 2: He was remote and mysterious emotionally in a way that 535 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: was very dramatic. 536 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I mean obvious. Like the song Grace itself, 537 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: it's just so it's just about leaving a girl in 538 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: an air like, you know, like an airport. 539 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: You would not It's like and the pain I leave 540 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: behind and I'm drowning, and it's just like, you know, 541 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: that was the mythical jest kicking in completely. It's like, 542 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 3: you know, the kind of the torture, teen, angsty side 543 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 3: of him that I think, you know, people also relate to. 544 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: It blows my mind that that was the first song 545 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 2: that made you cry on the radio. Yeah. 546 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: No, I literally was sobby in my mom's car. I 547 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: was just like, this is so much. My mom was 548 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: looking over at me like I was like eleven or twelve, 549 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: and I was just like, this is intense. 550 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 3: And also, Hallelujah had a whole life after nine to eleven? 551 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 3: Was this was this? It might have been. 552 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: It was definitely post nine eleven. 553 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: Okay, because there were there were people were making home 554 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 3: who were making videos of that site, and well, YouTube 555 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 3: didn't exist yet. I don't know where I saw them, 556 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 3: but people would make videos of rescue workers and put 557 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 3: that music to it and put it up somewhere. And 558 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 3: that was really the beginning of the Jeff hal Lujah 559 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 3: version really kicking in. Because it wasn't a big hit 560 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 3: or anything when he was alive. It wasn't a single 561 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: or anything, but it was a slow build thing. And 562 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 3: I remember, I remember that post nine to eleven, and 563 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: it was it was chillingly perfect, you know, for that 564 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 3: for that footage. 565 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, David. 566 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 3: Great to be here, guys, Thank you so much. 567 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: A real pleasure to talk this music with you. 568 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 3: It was a blast with both of you. 569 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: Get we really wrote the book. Thanks. 570 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred 571 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling 572 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: Stone and iHeartMedia. Written hosted by Me. 573 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: Britney spanos In, Me Rob Sheffield. 574 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Gus Winner, Jason Fine, Alex Dale, and 575 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: Christian Horne, and produced by Jesse Cannon, with music supervision 576 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: by Eric Seiler. Thanks for watching, Thanks for listening.