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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ed Warder, your co host for.

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Speaker 2: This podcast series examining the documentary America's Team, The Gambler

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Speaker 2: and His Cowboys. My co host, the great Darren Woodson,

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Speaker 2: Ring of Honor member Cowboys, All Time Tackling Leader, and

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Speaker 2: eventually we expect.

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Speaker 3: Hall of Famers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're praying for that, right.

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Speaker 1: Maybe this will be a vehicle that helps you in

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Speaker 1: that quest.

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Speaker 2: But we're joined today by the directors Chapman and McLain way,

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Speaker 2: who were instrumental in putting this whole docuseries together, eight

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Speaker 2: different parts, a lot of different storylines, spent forty hours

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Speaker 2: interviewing Jerry Jones. I know what it's like to interview

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Speaker 2: Jerry Jones for forty minutes and how much material you

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Speaker 2: wind up with and how hard it is organized it.

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Speaker 2: So respect to you guys for dealing with forty hours

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Speaker 2: plus all the other stuff. So Netflix pay the Cowboys

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Speaker 2: fifty million dollars for this project. Were you a part

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Speaker 2: of the pitch, were you already committed to directing this

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Speaker 2: series if Netflix got it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so well, First of all, thanks for having us on.

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Speaker 5: Ed and Darren really excited to have on the be

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Speaker 5: on the podcast and chat the Cowboys and the Cowboys

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Speaker 5: documentary series with you guys, But no, to answer your question,

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Speaker 5: my understanding is that you know Netflix basically you know

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Speaker 5: commissions production companies. So I don't think that Netflix paid

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Speaker 5: The Cowboys per se, but paid sky Dance Media, who

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Speaker 5: had a deal with the NFL. NFL films the Cowboys

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Speaker 5: and Jerry and that was all set up and Netflix

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Speaker 5: had acquired the rights to tell that project long before

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Speaker 5: we got a phone call about it. I do think

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Speaker 5: that we were one of Netflix's first phone calls in

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Speaker 5: terms of, hey, would you guys be interested in directing this?

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Speaker 5: And you know, my brother and I we have a

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Speaker 5: long working relationship with Netflix. We've directed documentaries with for

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Speaker 5: them for over ten year now, sports documentaries and non

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Speaker 5: sports documentaries. And we knew the headlines of this story.

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Speaker 5: We kind of, you know, we it was a look,

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Speaker 5: we were pretty young in the early nineties, but we

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Speaker 5: knew three Super Bowls. We knew Jimmy Johnson had won

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Speaker 5: back to back Super Bowls and had gotten fired, and

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Speaker 5: we knew maybe some of the bigger names on the team.

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Speaker 5: But that was really about it. And it took a

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Speaker 5: little bit of research and time diving in, reading articles

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Speaker 5: that you had written, books that people had written, reading

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Speaker 5: interviews with some of these guys, and we really jumped

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Speaker 5: at it from pretty quickly off the bat because we

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Speaker 5: knew it was such a compelling story.

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Speaker 2: Can you give us a sense of how it's been

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Speaker 2: received and whether Netflix and you guys consider the end

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Speaker 2: product of success based on viewership and feedback.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 6: I think you know, it's been in the top ten

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Speaker 6: for about two weeks, which is a great result for

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Speaker 6: sports documentary.

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Speaker 3: It's eight episodes.

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Speaker 6: I know, the completion rate was really strong, which is

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Speaker 6: really difficult obviously the more episodes you have, And so

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Speaker 6: the feedback from our Netflix team has been nothing but

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Speaker 6: like real excitement for the fact that obviously a lot

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Speaker 6: of sports people watched it. But I think the goal

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Speaker 6: is always you want non sports people to come in

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Speaker 6: and watch it, and people around the world, and you know,

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Speaker 6: football is a pretty American sport, but to see some

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Speaker 6: of the places around the world that really connected with

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Speaker 6: the story of the Cowboys and the story of Jerry

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Speaker 6: was really cool to see it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So, Chatman, let me ask you this, how do

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Speaker 4: you two work together and you actually have a third brother?

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Speaker 1: Who's involved as well.

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Speaker 4: How are those dynamics work as far as working together, It's.

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Speaker 3: Actually really strong, you know.

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Speaker 6: I think Mac and I are were similar in age,

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Speaker 6: and we get along really well. We have a pretty cool,

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Speaker 6: like getting good division of labor. I think Mac really

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Speaker 6: does a lot of the research, a lot of the interviews,

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Speaker 6: and I kind of tend to help out a little

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Speaker 6: bit more with like the filming and the editing of it,

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Speaker 6: although Mac obviously does a huge part in that as well.

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Speaker 3: And so it's.

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Speaker 6: Always fun for me because Mac does the bulk of

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Speaker 6: the research and then kind of brings me back to

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Speaker 6: the best stories, and so it's a it's a The

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Speaker 6: research process.

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Speaker 3: Is fun for me because Mac does most of the

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Speaker 3: heavy lift, and then.

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Speaker 5: It's chapped job to make it good. So good luck

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Speaker 5: with that, Mac.

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Speaker 2: What were the storytelling goals you had as you began

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Speaker 2: to unfold this story.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great question, you know. I think that

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Speaker 5: admittedly we came to this story as outsiders, which is

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Speaker 5: a disadvantage at first. It is, I tell any documentary

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Speaker 5: filmmaker when they start on a big story, But I

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Speaker 5: think slowly it turns into an advantage because it ultimately

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Speaker 5: becomes a process of discovery. You know, you're discovering things

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Speaker 5: for the first time, and I think that having those

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Speaker 5: outside eyes is a benefit for me. The things that

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Speaker 5: I did not know that jumped out early, primarily were

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Speaker 5: two things, and really they were They were the things

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Speaker 5: that kind of I think, at the end of the day,

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Speaker 5: really pushed Chap and I to be like, Okay, this

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Speaker 5: is a really remarkable story, and and and and almost came,

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Speaker 5: you know, it almost became too irresistible to turn down

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Speaker 5: or to not do. One was that I really did

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Speaker 5: not know have any understanding that Jerry and Jimmy had

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Speaker 5: like this long relationship that dates back to almost when

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Speaker 5: they were seventeen years old. I did not know that

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Speaker 5: they were teammates at the University of Arkansas that won

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Speaker 5: a national championship on the same team in nineteen sixty four.

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Speaker 5: I knew a little bit about their breakup and so,

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Speaker 5: but that knowing that these guys had that long relationship.

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Speaker 5: The second thing that I just didn't know about is

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that I after learning about all the

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Speaker 5: controversy that came with the firing of Tom Landry, I

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Speaker 5: didn't know that they went one in fifteen in their

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Speaker 5: first season, and it just immediately stood out to me

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Speaker 5: as like, what a remarkable way to start a story, like,

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Speaker 5: not only do you ignite the hatred and the passion

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Speaker 5: of Dallas by firing the only coach, the legendary Tom Land,

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Speaker 5: that they've ever had, but in your first season, you

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Speaker 5: go out there and you pretty much face plant and

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Speaker 5: you go one in fifteen. So for me, knowing that history,

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Speaker 5: knowing that they struggled that first season so well, ultimately

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Speaker 5: knowing they're going to win back to back Super Bowls

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Speaker 5: and then have this epic divorce and breakup, as a

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Speaker 5: storyteller like those arcs, those narrative arcs don't come along

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Speaker 5: in many sports stories, So for us, that was an

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Speaker 5: immediate attraction to tell the story.

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Speaker 4: What surprised you about the team? The personalities of the team,

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Speaker 4: because there's so many personalities, the Charles Haley's that you

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Speaker 4: guys interviewed, What surprised you about those interviews?

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Speaker 6: I think what surprised me was you really got a

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Speaker 6: true sense of what a brotherhood this team was. And

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Speaker 6: I think for us kind of growing up watching sports

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Speaker 6: in the twenty tens, and it definitely, you know, a

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Speaker 6: lot of sports have become much more of an individual endeavor.

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Speaker 6: And seeing the training camp footage of the early nineties

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Speaker 6: with Jimmy Johnson and seeing the sessions afterwards and the

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Speaker 6: practices and the tape watching sessions, and then we'd find

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Speaker 6: footage of you guys, you know, swimming in the local

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Speaker 6: pools outside and playing dominies together, and like it was

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Speaker 6: really really cool to see, like, wow, man, these guys

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Speaker 6: like really had each other's back.

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Speaker 3: And I know that's a little bit of a cliche.

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Speaker 6: In some ways, but seeing the footage firsthand that encapsulated

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Speaker 6: that brotherhood, and then interviewing some of the players and

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Speaker 6: seeing how emotional a lot of these memories were was

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Speaker 6: was pretty remarkable.

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Speaker 5: I think the other thing too, was she you know,

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Speaker 5: Chap and I have this is our first football documentary

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Speaker 5: we've ever made. But we've made a baseball documentary, made

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Speaker 5: of a hockey documentary, We've made a sailing documentary, we

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Speaker 5: made a tennis documentary. This was really our first time

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Speaker 5: tackling football, no pun intended. And I think the thing

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Speaker 5: that stood out quickly for me and listen, Chap was

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Speaker 5: a basketball player. I was a baseball player, so we

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Speaker 5: neither of us have played a single down of football

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Speaker 5: in our entire life. But the thing that stood out

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Speaker 5: about the sport of football that resonated when talking to

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Speaker 5: all these teammates was, you know, in baseball, the sacrifice

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Speaker 5: you can make for a teammate is kind of like

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Speaker 5: a bunt down and moving the runner over, or in

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Speaker 5: basketball you might set a pretty hard pick to get

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Speaker 5: a guy open. But in football, the sacrifices that each

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Speaker 5: and every teammate makes for the success of the entire

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Speaker 5: team and for their brother that's right next to them,

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Speaker 5: that the camaraderie that that builds it stood out more

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Speaker 5: than by far more than any other sport I've ever

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Speaker 5: had the pleasure of making a documentary on. And that

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Speaker 5: wasn't something that I necessarily knew starting this process, but

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Speaker 5: very quickly in seeing those bonds and honestly, it grew

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Speaker 5: my appreciation for the sport and a really it's a

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Speaker 5: beautiful thing. And I think that was a unique and surprising.

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Speaker 4: EXAs Yeah, you know, one of the things in watching

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Speaker 4: the documentary was watching my teammates be as open as

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Speaker 4: they were. I mean, we've we've we've always been open

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Speaker 4: within the locker room but you guys did a really

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Speaker 4: great job. And I remember the Nate Newton interview when

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Speaker 4: Nate was just open and transparent about the time as

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Speaker 4: he'd be out partying and the police officers are taking

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Speaker 4: them home, Like those are stories we knew in the

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Speaker 4: locker room, but for him to just come out and

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Speaker 4: say it, I mean, those are just great interviews and

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Speaker 4: how you guys pulled that information out.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's always like important for us. I

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Speaker 6: think in some sense, like the X's and O's, the

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Speaker 6: sport is maybe a little bit less interesting to us

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Speaker 6: as filmmakers than kind of capturing the humans and the

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Speaker 6: humanity at the center of this. And I think that's

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Speaker 6: what connects us to stories and sports. I think Jerry

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Speaker 6: understood that very early on in promoting the players and

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Speaker 6: getting the fans to get to know the team and

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Speaker 6: the players and so yeah, it was just like really

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Speaker 6: really really really powerful, like getting to know these guys

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Speaker 6: on not just as athletes, but like who's behind the helmet,

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Speaker 6: Who are these people? What makes them tick, what are

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Speaker 6: their fears, what are they And I think part of

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Speaker 6: our job is spending time with them and giving them

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Speaker 6: confidence that like, look, we're gonna work really hard over

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Speaker 6: the next year to make something good and cool and.

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Speaker 3: That honors you guys.

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Speaker 6: So let's like you, let's let's work together, and let's

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Speaker 6: be open, let's be vulnerable, and let's make something that

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Speaker 6: actually has maybe hopefully a lasting impact.

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Speaker 5: And like I always chapin that, we would talk at

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Speaker 5: length with these guys too about everyone about it's it's

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Speaker 5: it is a balance, Like we had no intention of

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Speaker 5: just making a dark expos a because that's not what

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Speaker 5: this team deserved. Like it there was such beautiful moments

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Speaker 5: and such successes that we always pitched, like, listen, we're

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Speaker 5: gonna try and work as hard to capture that feeling

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Speaker 5: of when you guys won that Super Bowl fifty two

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Speaker 5: seventeen in Pasadena, what that moment was like as that

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Speaker 5: clock wound down at zero, and we're going to score

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Speaker 5: it big, and we're gonna edit it big, and we're

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Speaker 5: going to try and dig through all the amazing NFL

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Speaker 5: films footage to find the best shots we can to

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Speaker 5: immerse audiences in that moment and you guys are gonna

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Speaker 5: love that. But at the same token, Michael Hey, when

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Speaker 5: you're when we talk about the trial that you had

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Speaker 5: to go through a ninety six. We're also going to

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Speaker 5: put effort into capturing what that moment was like, and ultimately,

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Speaker 5: you know, you never totally know how accurate something is.

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Speaker 5: That you're telling a long story that's thirty year that

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Speaker 5: happened thirty plus years ago, but by including the highs

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Speaker 5: and the lows, hopefully you're painting, hopefully an overall somewhat

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Speaker 5: accurate picture of the whole story.

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Speaker 2: Gain this project, when you become a part of it,

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Speaker 2: you have to, I assume believe that, Wow, Jerry Jones

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Speaker 2: really needs to be good because he's going to be

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Speaker 2: the driving force and the central figure in all of this.

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Speaker 1: He's eighty two years old.

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Speaker 2: What were you What was your takeaway when you met

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Speaker 2: with him for the first time. Did you come away

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Speaker 2: convinced he could carry the piece if necessary?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that was actually a huge component to

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Speaker 6: us kind of agreeing to do this in a way.

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Speaker 6: You know, when Netflix first approached us, my first thought

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Speaker 6: was like, great, we're gonna get twenty minutes with Jerry Jones,

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Speaker 6: and then.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna have to edit eight hours of content.

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Speaker 6: Like, the guy's got a season upcoming season, He's preparing.

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Speaker 5: For a fifteen billion dollars.

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Speaker 6: Or we're just gonna be bugging this guy for the

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Speaker 6: next two years for just like little morsels of interviews,

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Speaker 6: And you know, we flew out there, we met with him.

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Speaker 6: Mac actually spent a little bit more time with him

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Speaker 6: in the beginning, and I'll never forget like the first

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Speaker 6: time we met with them, you know, he was telling

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Speaker 6: us what makes a good story, drama, conflict, it's a

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Speaker 6: soap opera. And I was like, holy crap, this this

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Speaker 6: is usually our pitch to the subjects, and he's pitching

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Speaker 6: it back to me. And so I remember walking out

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Speaker 6: of his office with Mac, I'm like, I think this

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Speaker 6: is gonna be a pretty interesting interview because he's pretty open,

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Speaker 6: Like he kind of made it clear like no questions

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Speaker 6: were off the table, and he understood that, like this

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Speaker 6: was going to be a project that captured like the good,

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Speaker 6: the bad, and the ugly, and not only did he

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Speaker 6: understand that, he was excited by that. And so that

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Speaker 6: was kind of honestly a first as a documentary filmmaker

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Speaker 6: to uh work with the subject who was excited about

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Speaker 6: the unsavory parts as much as as the good stuff.

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Speaker 2: It seemed like to me as somebody who covered those

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Speaker 2: teams that has been in Dallas really from the time

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Speaker 2: time Jerry got here and Troy got here and Jimmy

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Speaker 2: was hired in nineteen eighty nine.

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Speaker 1: The one thing that.

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Speaker 2: Was the biggest revelation to me was Jerry's cancer diagnosis

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Speaker 2: and his treatment for that, which you kind of shared

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Speaker 2: with the world. Nobody knew about that, even the people

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Speaker 2: who covered this most closely. How did you want to

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Speaker 2: tell that part and why was it kind of limited

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Speaker 2: in scope?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know what's interesting is that was just something

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Speaker 5: that Jerry kind of walked himself into just by the

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Speaker 5: virtue of just doing these like long form hours of interviews.

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Speaker 5: And it was interesting because he called it a cancer scare,

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Speaker 5: which I can admit that was not language that caused

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Speaker 5: me to ask a ton of follow ups about it,

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Speaker 5: you know, like it was actually a little news for

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Speaker 5: me when Brad Townshend further did reporting on it based

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Speaker 5: off that little mention that Jerry gave in the documentary,

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Speaker 5: or it was stage four and it was much more serious,

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Speaker 5: So we actually did not have a very deep understanding

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Speaker 5: of how serious that cancer was. To be honest, when

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Speaker 5: Jerry mentioned the cancer scare. I was more surprised because

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Speaker 5: he was using it as a story to illustrate kind

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Speaker 5: of some medical advice he had been given. It was

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Speaker 5: like a doctor telling him, like, hey, practice meditation as

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Speaker 5: you're kind of going through this cancer scare. One of

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Speaker 5: the meditative practices we think you should do is like

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Speaker 5: give really positive wishful thinking to people who have you know,

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Speaker 5: historically gotten under your skin. And Jerry said, and you know,

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Speaker 5: the joke that Jerry tells him really well is come

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Speaker 5: up with the list of ten people. Come back in

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Speaker 5: two weeks, we'll go through all ten names. Jerry comes

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Speaker 5: back in two weeks and he says, well, I can't

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Speaker 5: get past this first name. Jimmy Johnson's number one on

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Speaker 5: my list, and I can't get back. It was more

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Speaker 5: the cancer was was was like wow, but it was

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Speaker 5: more just shocking that he would use that he has

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Speaker 5: a cancer diagnosis. He's kind of given this medical advice,

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Speaker 5: but at the end of the day, this guy, Jimmy Johnson,

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Speaker 5: you just cannot get past it. And this was years

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Speaker 5: I think this was in the early to mid two thousands,

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Speaker 5: so that's kind of what it.

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Speaker 6: Was a total afterthought. And then reading the Dallas Morning

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Speaker 6: News article, I was just like, crap, how did we

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Speaker 6: not like ask more follow ups? Something no one in

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Speaker 6: the room thought to ask about it. And I remember

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Speaker 6: kind of like, is that public? And Mac and I

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Speaker 6: were like, I don't know if he's talked about that before,

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Speaker 6: but you know, it was really really fascinating he learned

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Speaker 6: it was stage four, you had multiple operations, and like

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Speaker 6: it was a legitimate, legitimate deal, And I mean, it's

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Speaker 6: always fascinating me, like you never know what people are

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Speaker 6: going through, you know, and that that was one of

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Speaker 6: those things where, you know, Jerry takes a lot of heat,

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Speaker 6: and I don't think anyone knew what he was going

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Speaker 6: through in twenty eleven, and so I thought, it's a

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Speaker 6: I'm glad we were able to include it in ours,

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Speaker 6: and I'm glad, you know, journalists were able to even

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Speaker 6: further the story even more.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting, like you said that he was using

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Speaker 2: it to make a point about the deep issues that

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Speaker 2: he had in strong feelings he had for Jimmy Johnson

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Speaker 2: and the fact that they broke up. How hard was

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Speaker 2: it to get Jimmy to be willing to sit down

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Speaker 2: and engage fully about that period of time and that experience.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it was. It was the amount of challenging that

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Speaker 5: I thought it would. I would not say it was easy,

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Speaker 5: but I would not say it was impossible. I think

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Speaker 5: that it's always a little difficult getting people to rehash

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Speaker 5: old battles, wounds that have healed over, and not in

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Speaker 5: a way that we're trying to kind of rip those

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Speaker 5: old wounds over, but we're just trying to do our

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Speaker 5: job and kind of accurately explain to an audience, how

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Speaker 5: could an owner fire a coach that's won back to

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Speaker 5: back Super Bowls. I mean, that was honestly my biggest

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Speaker 5: fear as a a man was it was more con

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Speaker 5: I was more worried that our audiences were just going

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Speaker 5: to be confused by it if we didn't really push

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Speaker 5: both Jerry and Jimmy to really elaborate on what their

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Speaker 5: issues were and and and I think that they both

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Speaker 5: actually do have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration

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Speaker 5: for one another. So I do think that there was

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Speaker 5: some initial hesitancy to just really dive in and rehash

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Speaker 5: what they probably thought was old news. But it was

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Speaker 5: very important for us, and we did not give up

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Speaker 5: on it, and it was probably the thing that we

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Speaker 5: probably spent the most time talking to both of them

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Speaker 5: about was their.

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Speaker 3: Relationship with one another.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think it was important to let everyone know,

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Speaker 6: like ultimately, you know, Netflix had final cut and so

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Speaker 6: everyone was going to get to share their version of

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Speaker 6: their story, you know. And so I think that was

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Speaker 6: important obviously for Jimmy and and some other players involved,

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Speaker 6: which is like, look like everyone's going to get to

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Speaker 6: tell things how they saw it, and everyone had kind

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Speaker 6: of different takeaways. It was really interesting, even when we

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Speaker 6: know we discussed the Jimmy firing, like, it was interesting

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Speaker 6: hearing from players who had different reactions from just outright anger,

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Speaker 6: feeling betrayed, confusion to like even some people.

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Speaker 3: People understood it a little bit more.

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Speaker 6: And so I think it was important for us to

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Speaker 6: include like a lot of different perspectives.

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Speaker 3: And I know that, you know, talking to Jimmy was

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Speaker 3: important to him that we would include his perspective.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I still don't understand it, and I played

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Speaker 4: on those things, so I'm still lost on that situation.

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Speaker 1: But let me ask you this.

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Speaker 4: The herschel Walker trade was a huge event that took

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Speaker 4: place within this organization. I was actually a part of

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Speaker 4: that trade. I was the second round pick that that

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Speaker 4: was that they acquired. Then to this day, even through

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Speaker 4: watching the show, you look at both of them and

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Speaker 4: they still have their own stories about this. Which one

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Speaker 4: of those guys, did you believe.

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Speaker 5: It's because you know, we've met, We've come across moments

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Speaker 5: like this and other documentaries we've made where it's like, hey,

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Speaker 5: it's not just two interpretations of something. It's like, no

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Speaker 5: one thing happened, and I'm getting too drastically different for

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Speaker 5: version of what happened. And so it was interesting to

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Speaker 5: kind of ping pong back and forth. Ultimately, you know

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Speaker 5: I and your point is right. It's like, if you

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Speaker 5: get both Jerry and Jimmy in the same room and

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Speaker 5: ask them who deserves credit for the herschel Walker trade,

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Speaker 5: you're going to be in that room for a while

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Speaker 5: because you're gonna get two different answers. But what was

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Speaker 5: interesting is I think that my my ultimate if, like

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Speaker 5: gun in my head, I had to decide, I would

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Speaker 5: say that I think it was an idea that was

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Speaker 5: in the building. And I know that sounds like a

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Speaker 5: diplomatic cop out answer, but Jerry was pretty emphatic of

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Speaker 5: like listen, Teed Shram was the first person that ever

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Speaker 5: told me about Herschel when I bought the team. Now

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Speaker 5: that's you know, okay, so months they're going to go by.

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Speaker 5: Because I think Herschel got traded in week six of

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Speaker 5: the eighty nine season. Maybe I think Jimmy probably reignited

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Speaker 5: that idea based on what offers and I actually after

404
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Speaker 5: the documentary, I went back and I read Swagger, which

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Speaker 5: is Jimmy Johnson's by all, and surprisingly, if you read

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Speaker 5: his chapter on the Herschel Walker trade, it is more

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Speaker 5: of a wei than I think a version that he

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Speaker 5: gave in the thirty for thirty ESPN documentary. So it's

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Speaker 5: like even some of the stories within the guys have

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Speaker 5: slightly shifted over the years if I could. That was

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Speaker 5: my but chat, what do you think?

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Speaker 6: One of my favorite filmmakers is David Fincher, and he

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Speaker 6: says the best scenes are when both characters are right.

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Speaker 3: And I always feel like, as.

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Speaker 6: A filmmaker, it's not my responsibility to choose who's right

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Speaker 6: or wrong, but to make both characters right and then

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Speaker 6: let the.

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Speaker 3: Audience decide how they feel.

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Speaker 6: I feel like there's enough information in there for audiences

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Speaker 6: to come away with their own takeaways.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's very well answered. You guys are both politically correct, But.

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Speaker 2: It seems like the whole thing that included was about

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Speaker 2: who had control right, who had personnel control. Well, surely

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Speaker 2: there was a contract between the two. Did you ever

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Speaker 2: have a chance to look at that to say, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: the way this language reads to me, Jimmy did have controller,

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Speaker 2: Jerry did have final say.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we did have that contract, and it was interesting

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Speaker 5: at first plans it's like it does read a little

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Speaker 5: clearly that Jimmy can't nothing can be done without prior

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Speaker 5: approval of Jimmy. But then Jerry had a rebuttal when

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Speaker 5: I pressed him on the contract, and you guys should

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Speaker 5: ask him too, But his rebuttal was, well, when we

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Speaker 5: drafted that contract, it was written that ultimately the owner

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Speaker 5: would have superseding control over both the general manager and

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Speaker 5: the coach. And so at that point I got to

437
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Speaker 5: be honest. I did not go to law school. So

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Speaker 5: I was like, all right, I kind of have two

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Speaker 5: guys who were both parties to this contract that have

440
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 5: their that have both their interpretations over who controls the

441
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 5: levers of power here, and I think we had in

442
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 5: the documentary, tried including even the disagreement over the analysis

443
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 5: over the contract in the section in.

444
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 3: There, and everyone got so bored. Everyone, We're trying to

445
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 3: explain the legal leese.

446
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 6: It took us ten minutes to describe something that people

447
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 6: were still confused by, so ultimately it didn't make it in.

448
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: In terms of storylines. You overlooked.

449
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 2: Jerry was asked about that and he cited the Steve

450
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: Walsh draft choice, which was made.

451
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: You let us know about that many times.

452
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: Oh he didn't, okay, So for people who don't know.

453
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty nine, the Cowboys made Troy Aikman the

454
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: first overall pick in the regular draft, and a few

455
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 2: months later the NFL had a supplemental draft.

456
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: And the Cowboys made Steve Walsh.

457
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: They surrendered their first pick the following year to take

458
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: Steve Walsh in the first round of that draft, an

459
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: unprecedented move to take two quarterbacks in the first round,

460
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,719
Speaker 2: and one of them, by the way, Steve Walsh had

461
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: just won a national championship for the Cowboys head coach

462
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: Jimmy Johnson and so many members of his staff he brought,

463
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: so that created a lot of conflict and I think

464
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 2: really got Roy's relationship with Jerry and Jimmy, you know,

465
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,360
Speaker 2: off on the wrong foot. So how was it that

466
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 2: you didn't include that it had to be a choice?

467
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 4: Ye.

468
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 6: That was another section that we actually had edited. We

469
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 6: you know, there's various versions of this documentary. It was

470
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 6: in there at a couple different points, and I know

471
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 6: it was very important to Jerry because to Jerry's credit,

472
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 6: he feels very much like I was the one that

473
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 6: put my hand down for Troy aikman, you know, and

474
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 6: even when Jimmy was was drafting Steve, like I made

475
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 6: it clear I want Troy.

476
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 3: I think there's kind of a couple answers.

477
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 6: One's a little bit more boring, but it is true,

478
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 6: which is, you know, whether it's we made the right

479
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 6: decision or the wrong decision.

480
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 3: We kind of decided to focus more on the.

481
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 6: Steve Berline controversy, you know, in the following season, you know,

482
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 6: Troy gets hurt, Steve takes over, and that kind of

483
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 6: became a real controversy of who was going to start

484
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 6: in the playoff, Steve Berlin or Troy. So as a filmmaker,

485
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 6: when we had both quarterback controversies in there, by the

486
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 6: time we got to the Steve Berlin controversy kind of

487
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 6: felt like a narrative repeat of the previous quarterback controversy.

488
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 6: So it ultimately ended up getting trimmed. You're also trying

489
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 6: to get run time down a little bit, and it

490
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 6: was always a conversation in the edit room like is

491
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 6: this just for die hard cowboy fans or will resonate

492
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 6: with the wider audience. I think ultimately maybe we should

493
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 6: have found a way to include it, Like I don't know,

494
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 6: maybe maybe we I.

495
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 5: Mean, you know what's funny is because Jerry like yes,

496
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 5: he was emphatic like, well, you're missing one of that.

497
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 5: And the problem with eighty nine is we kind of

498
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 5: just told it in one swing, which is they they

499
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 5: come out, they get their butts kicked by New Orleans.

500
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 5: Then Jimmy says that losing shit stops now, it doesn't

501
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 5: they trade herschel Walker. Nope, they lose out for the

502
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: rest of the season. And so it was a little

503
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 5: hard to stop down and tell the Steve Walsch story.

504
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 5: The maybe this is more embarrassing. But Jerry used to

505
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 5: be like, you gotta include Steve Fash and he would

506
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 5: laying to me the story, and I remember I had

507
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 5: to stop and I said, we interviewed Steve Wall. We

508
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 5: interviewed it for the documentary, like we know of this story.

509
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 5: It's it was difficult because episode two, when you look

510
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 5: at episode two and chaps right, this is probably too boring,

511
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 5: and the answer, sorry, but it includes eighty nine, ninety

512
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 5: ninety one, and ninety two all the way up to

513
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 5: that Eagles win, and so it's a It was always

514
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 5: a very tough episode. It was our hardest episode by far,

515
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 5: because we were just we were We had made the

516
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 5: decision if you want to get a global audience invested,

517
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 5: you have to get audiences to episode you. You got

518
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 5: to get them a little fast to these super Bowls,

519
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 5: and tough decisions were made. So sorry, Steve and Jerry

520
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 5: happy to say that week we just should should we

521
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 5: just make everyone happy and say we made a mistake,

522
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 5: We should have gotten it.

523
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: In so much for those who think Jerry had editorial control.

524
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 3: Te Walls, I forgot that we actually did the whole interview.

525
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 5: We interviewed for like four hours.

526
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah sorry, Steve.

527
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I thought you guys got Jimmy. Jimmy was

528
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 4: so like he was the biggest on the planet. And

529
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 4: I thought you guys did a great job of not

530
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: only because I came in nineteen ninety two.

531
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: I know, I'm gonna say this, but.

532
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety two I came in and I didn't

533
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 4: have the relationship that the Emmets to the Troy's and

534
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 4: the Michael Irvins had With Jimmy. All I knew was

535
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 4: Jimmy was the stop. There was no no one above Jimmy.

536
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,360
Speaker 4: He made all decisions and it was just I mean,

537
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 4: you ask anyone that came in that came in with

538
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 4: me in ninety two and ninety three, and they'll tell you, man,

539
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 4: this guy was just all football. And I thought you

540
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 4: guys did a great job of showing that Jimmy didn't

541
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 4: have a personal life.

542
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: This was it, This was it was honest.

543
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

544
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 6: And was one night when when I came across the

545
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 6: archive that he had divorced his wife and I was like,

546
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 6: wait what And I was like, yeah, the guy divorced

547
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 6: his wife so we could just focus on football.

548
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: And I was like, holy crap, that's dedication, you know.

549
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 6: I was like, this is this is pretty pretty interesting,

550
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 6: but yeah, go sorry, sorry to.

551
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 4: Interrupt, No no, I just thought you guys did a

552
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 4: great job of showing like there was another side of

553
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 4: Jimmy as well, like the relationship with Troy. You know,

554
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 4: he used to go to Troy's house, Like I would

555
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 4: have never knew that there was an actual relation, that

556
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 4: Jimmy had actual relationships with some of the players, because

557
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 4: as a young guy, you just were told what to

558
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: do and you just did it and that was it.

559
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 4: There was no personal side of Jimmy, and I thought

560
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 4: you guys did a great job of showing that one.

561
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, his commitment was was legendary, and it showed in

562
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 5: the archive footage, like even when this was another little

563
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 5: anecdote that was cut out, but north Turner gave a

564
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 5: great little story about, Hey, I like to come into

565
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 5: the office early. But my first season I also found

566
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 5: out Jimmy liked to come into the office early. So

567
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 5: my first day, I'm in at six am and Jimmy

568
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: comes in at six fifteen. And so the next day

569
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 5: I come. You know, Jimmy had gotten there a little

570
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 5: before me, but both of them had liked their mornings

571
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 5: kind of with an empty office, to the point that

572
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 5: they're both trying to beat each other to the office

573
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 5: at like four am, and finally Jimmy comes into the

574
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 5: norm's office and says, enough, dude, I want the first

575
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 5: hour without anyone here, so you can't come in the

576
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 5: office until six am. Otherwise we're going to be here

577
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 5: all night. But it does show how committed they were.

578
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 5: I mean, I think Jimmy lived like three blocks away

579
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 5: from Valley Ranch when he first came to the facility.

580
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 5: And I think that we were just so impressed with

581
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 5: how Jimmy handled the players. What was interesting, and I'm

582
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 5: so many players who were there in eighty nine said

583
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 5: that Jimmy was a little bit more not loose. I

584
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 5: don't know if I'm using the right word ed. Maybe

585
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 5: you'll have insight onto this. But the better the team got,

586
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 5: the more tight Jimmy became. Which makes sense. I think

587
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 5: that's what you need to push a team to go

588
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 5: win the Super Bowl, especially a young team like that.

589
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 5: But it almost seemed like as the team got better,

590
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 5: Jimmy became even more more tighter in terms of control

591
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 5: over the team.

592
00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,719
Speaker 3: I think it was really interesting.

593
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 6: I mean it was it was a pretty fascinating arc

594
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 6: for me to see.

595
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: Like you said, a lot of players are like Man,

596
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: this guy's an asshole, you know. But then when he.

597
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 6: Gets fired, to see how much those players loved him

598
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 6: and loved playing for him, and.

599
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: That was really interesting.

600
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 6: There's a lot of coaches that people hate in the

601
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 6: beginning and they hate at the end. Yeah, but to

602
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 6: see that arc of man, this guy's an asshole, to like, man,

603
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 6: I would do anything for this coach, really really bad.

604
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 3: And that was me. Yeah, And that was me.

605
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't know what You don't know what

606
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: you're having too, It's gone right.

607
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: But I think Jimmy was.

608
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 4: In the moment of knowing what he had and Troy

609
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 4: Aikman's were in the moment of knowing, Hey, we can

610
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 4: put you know, three of these back to back, we

611
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 4: can do another full We may have an opportunity to

612
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: win five of these championships.

613
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: And for a young.

614
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 4: Player, all I saw was just the dynamic of Jimmy

615
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 4: walking in and just being hard on us and hard

616
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: on us.

617
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: But he was in the moment. Troy was in the moment,

618
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: Michael Urban.

619
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 4: They were in the moment because they have come from

620
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: the eighty nines and the nineties and now they knew

621
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 4: they had this run and you know, you have to

622
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 4: appreciate it. So when Jimmy left, you started to see

623
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 4: the downfall of this organization.

624
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: And Troy Aikman really spoke to that you should. Yeah,

625
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: like what was the cultural difference between Jimmy's reign and

626
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: Barry's tenure.

627
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: Well, it's different.

628
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 4: I mean the difference was, you know, Barry Switzer inherited

629
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: all of Jimmy's coaches, so you know, and you guys

630
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 4: said it on the on the phone on the show

631
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: that you knew that there was gonna be this dynamic

632
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: within the locker room, within the coaching staff that everyone

633
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 4: wanted that job, but Davis wanted that job. You know,

634
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 4: Joe Aazona wanted that job, and there was there was

635
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 4: this undertow underneath the team that was basically saying, look,

636
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: you know, we're not gonna play for this guy. Jimmy's

637
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: our guy, and then I should have this job. So

638
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: you it's we're just people, you know, we're all people,

639
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 4: and you there was this dynamic where you there was

640
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 4: an argument that was taking place and they didn't have

641
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 4: Barry's back. They never had Barry's back through this process.

642
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's gotta be tough to coach on that

643
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 5: scene too. I mean, what's interesting and dared, I'd love

644
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 5: to hear your thoughts because obviously we would always ask

645
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 5: players like, Okay, well, Jimmy stayed on how many Super Bowls? Right, like,

646
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 5: because that's a question you guys did asked all the time,

647
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 5: so we obviously had to do it. But I'm curious

648
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 5: if do you think Jimmy could have maintained his approach

649
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 5: as a coach with the Troy, Emmett, Michael, those guys

650
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 5: that were on the team before you as they got

651
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 5: massive contracts, they become multi millionaires. Do you think that

652
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 5: would have been a challenge to possibly motivate those older

653
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: that the way that he was able to do it

654
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 5: when they were young and rookies.

655
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 4: I'm just curious, you know what, It's a great question

656
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 4: because free agency really started to take place, then the

657
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 4: numbers started to increase, bigger contracts in bigger contracts lead

658
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 4: to bigger personalities throughout the I don't know, that's a

659
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 4: great question. I don't know. I really don't know if

660
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 4: he could have maintained that. I think one of the

661
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 4: things that Jimmy did a great YABA was knowing having

662
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 4: the pulse of the team and being able to put

663
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 4: his thumb on a certain person to get him motivated,

664
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 4: or just absolutely cutting a guy from falling asleep in

665
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 4: the meeting, like he knew how to get you motivated

666
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 4: in those situations. But money's a different tale, and free

667
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: agency really started to open up when Jimmy was and

668
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: that was in the ninety three ninety four seasons when

669
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 4: free agency.

670
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: Started coming around.

671
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 4: I don't know if he could have maintained the same

672
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 4: success in managing the team. Accordingly, I do think that

673
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: we would have won three straight. I firmly believe that,

674
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 4: and we would have had an opportunity to win four

675
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 4: or five.

676
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: So here's a question for you guys. As we wrap

677
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 2: this up. We're about to go off the satellite here

678
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: pretty soon. Maybe we'll do eight episodes with you guys.

679
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: Yes's okay.

680
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: But one of the things I wondered, and I wondered

681
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: this as you guys were shooting this, and all of

682
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: a sudden, the Cowboys are at Carolina and Jerry announces

683
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: that Jimmy is gonna go into the Ring of Honor

684
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: after all these and all these times he promised to

685
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 2: put him in and didn't honor that all of a sudden,

686
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: now he's going in. Do you what role, if any,

687
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: do you think this documentary played in Jerry deciding to

688
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: put Jimmy Johnson in the Ring of Honor.

689
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 5: It's a good question. There was never like an explicit like, hey, Jerry,

690
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 5: this would be great for the documentary, we should do it.

691
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 5: That didn't happen. But I'm not naive enough to pretend

692
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 5: that Jerry has an incredible sense of narrative, an incredible

693
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 5: sense of showmanship, and an incredible sense of like this

694
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 5: would be good entertainment, you know. So I think Jerry

695
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 5: was feeling that around and maybe the door started to

696
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: open and it made sense. So I do think our

697
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 5: documentary and our existence of it was was helpful in

698
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 5: terms of that. But listen, I think that we did

699
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 5: know what we signed.

700
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: On though Mac they were already having like real D stuff.

701
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 4: It was.

702
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: We didn't get into it too much in the documentary,

703
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 5: But Troy Aikman, I think, does deserve quite a bit

704
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,239
Speaker 5: a credit for pushing Jerry. I know that there was

705
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 5: a sit down or two that were I don't know

706
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 5: if sit downs too form of a word, but it

707
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 5: was really becoming something that Troy was pushing for and

708
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 5: my understanding is he activated a lot of the players

709
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 5: to help push Jerry towards this. Now, listen, I do

710
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 5: want to say that my understanding was I talked to

711
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 5: a lot of guys in the media and like someone

712
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 5: like Dale or you know, colleagues of yours, and it

713
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 5: seemed like Jerry and I could be wrong, I could

714
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 5: be naive that did not really hold grudges towards people

715
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 5: that criticized them in the media. It does seem like

716
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 5: he held one and that was Jimmy. But to me,

717
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 5: that's not a criticism of Jerry. I think that always

718
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 5: just showed me how much these guys did hurt each

719
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 5: other and they caused each other pain, and that's okay.

720
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 5: And now I think it is a beautiful reconciliation where listen,

721
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 5: they're never going to agree on the herschel Wat trade,

722
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 5: but they can be in the same room with each other,

723
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 5: they can toast to what they achieve together. I think

724
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 5: there's a beautiful message. And you can disagree with someone

725
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 5: over something, but that doesn't mean that you have to

726
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 5: hate them, you know. And I think that there is

727
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 5: something nice about Jerry and Jimmy's relationship, that they are

728
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 5: as old as they are, and that that hatchet does

729
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 5: feel buried to a certain degree.

730
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 2: My last question is is there enough unused material and

731
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 2: enough interest that there could be a sequel?

732
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 5: Oh? Absolutely, I mean, especially if Cowboys can make a run.

733
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 5: I mean they looked pretty good in their opener. I

734
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 5: know that they didn't come away with it, but I

735
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 5: was impressed. If there's a run here, if there's something

736
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 5: interesting or exciting. Yeah, we got to make eight episodes,

737
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 5: but I felt like we could have made twenty. I

738
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 5: mean that's that's the type of team Darren. You you

739
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 5: played on you know, and and and and Like I said,

740
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 5: I came to this. We came to this documentary not

741
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 5: knowing a ton about it, but but learned so much.

742
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 5: And that's just how special this this ball club was.

743
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 5: Well I got to what do you think?

744
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I've been kind of put in Netflix's year,

745
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 7: which is, yeah, if the Cowboys make a real run

746
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 7: this year, like let's get cameras like Jerry and the

747
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 7: Jones family gave us incredible access.

748
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 6: They're really really cool people. We know them all really well.

749
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 6: And I think a lot of people watch this documentary.

750
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 6: I think would be pretty fascinating to kind of they

751
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 6: can make a deep playoff run to have cameras there

752
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 6: and capture it.

753
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, you need to.

754
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: You're definitely yeah they have this.

755
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 4: If they start to win games, you're definitely head doing

756
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 4: another one of these, right, are you Cowboys fans?

757
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 5: Now? I? I am?

758
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: You know what?

759
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 5: It was interesting. I didn't know if I would watch

760
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 5: after the documentary series came out and I turned the

761
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 5: game on and I found myself rooting for them against

762
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 5: the Eagles the other week. So I would love to

763
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 5: see it. And I think that is the working with

764
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 5: this family a little bit. I think that there's a

765
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 5: lot of fair media criticism out there, but I think

766
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 5: the one thing that I just was my personal experience.

767
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 5: I'm only speaking for myself, is I think this family

768
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 5: wants to win, and I think they're desperate to win

769
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 5: another Super Bowl for their dad and and and I

770
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 5: felt that on a human level, and I think it's

771
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 5: brought me over to the Cowboys sides. What about you, chatman.

772
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 6: It's probably not journalistically sound, but I think after learning

773
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 6: the whole history of this team from Landry all the

774
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 6: way through Jimmy Johnson, all the way through the modern years,

775
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 6: and really spending all the time we did with Jerry,

776
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 6: like I think, and his impact that he had on

777
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 6: the NFL.

778
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 3: I think would be pretty cool for Jerry.

779
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 6: To see Jerry win one more while he's still around,

780
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 6: I think would be pretty special for football fans just

781
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 6: in general around the world.

782
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 3: So I'm definitely rooting for him. I'll put it out there,

783
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 3: you can print it.

784
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: I'm rooting for McLain and Chatman Way, the directors of

785
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: America's team, The Gambler and his Cowboys.

786
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: Uh so great to interview you guys.

787
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: Thanks for all the great stories, the insights, and for

788
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: including me in the documentary. And I think Wood he

789
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: should definitely be in the sequel.

790
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 5: In the sequel, no doubt, no doubt, that's the sequel.

791
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: Thanks. I appreciate you guys.

792
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate you guys.

793
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: Bye,