WEBVTT - Great Architects: Donald Ross (feat Bradley Klein) 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.920 With the PGA Championship at Aronominc. Golf Club coming up, 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:05.840 I thought it would be a good time to talk 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:11.039 about the architect behind Ironimink, who is of course, Donald Ross. 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:16.200 Ross had one of the most impressive and remarkable careers 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.520 in the history of golf architecture, but I'm not sure 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:24.520 that his design style is particularly well understood. So today 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.320 we're going to talk about it all in the form 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:32.080 of a mail bag. My guest is Bradley Klein, a 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:36.320 longtime golf architecture writer and golf course consultant whose book 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:40.320 Discovering Donald Ross had a big impact on the revival 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.879 of interest in the architect that happened toward the beginning 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.919 of this century. And in this episode, I'm just going 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.440 to toss Bradley a bunch of questions about Donald Ross 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.480 that were asked by members of fried Egg Golf Club. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.160 So let's see how that goes. I'm Garrett Morrison, and 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:08.240 this is designing Golf, all right. Before we bring in 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:13.600 brad Kline, let's talk about the five essential Donald Ross 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:18.319 golf courses. These aren't necessarily his best courses, or even 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.360 what I would consider my favorite Donald Ross courses, but 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.800 I think they're his most important designs. If you want 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.400 to know about Donald Ross, this is a good place 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.920 to start. So I think I'm going to take these 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:35.800 basically in chronological order. First up is Pinehurst number two 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:42.479 in the North Carolina Sandhills. Probably an expected unsurprising choice here. 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.240 Donald Ross lived in Pinehurst. He kept an office in 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:51.280 Pinehurst for many years, so he spent more time tweaking 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.040 and refining the number two course than really any other 0:01:55.120 --> 0:02:00.000 course in his catalog. The turtleback greens at Pinehurst are famous, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.680 but they're not actually original. They evolved into that form 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.160 over the course of several decades in the middle of 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.000 the twentieth century, probably because of some aggressive top dressing 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:15.480 from the maintenance staff. But when Coren Crenshaw did their 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:19.600 restoration of Pinehurst Number two in twenty eleven, they decided 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.680 to just keep the greens that way because at that 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.440 point the crowned nature of the greens had become integral 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.680 to the course's identity, or at least so they thought. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.959 But for me, the greatest strength of Pinehurst number two 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.919 is the way the course uses diagonals and side slopes. 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.880 The property at Pinehurst number two really isn't that dramatic. 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:49.200 There aren't big elevation changes or eye catching undulations, but 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:53.560 what is there is really well used. The fairways are 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.800 always working on these right to left or left to 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.800 right diagonals in relation to the direction that you're hitting 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.640 your shot. They use side slopes just brilliantly, sometimes banking 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:08.840 off of one hillside then banking off of another hillside. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.440 It's really interesting stuff and it's very subtle. It doesn't 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.720 come through on TV, but when you're playing the course, 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:18.880 all this stuff has an effect on your ball, and 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.800 in that way, I think Pinehurst Number two has a 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:26.240 lot more in common with Links courses than basically anything 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.560 else Donald Ross designed, and the Pinehurst resort itself is 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.959 maybe the closest thing that we have in the US 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.080 to Saint Andrews. It really does feel like a home 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.480 of golf. It's a special place, all right. The second 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.360 essential Donald Ross course that I'd like to talk about 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:48.160 is Essex County Club in Manchester by the Sea, Massachusetts. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.720 This is another course that Ross spent a lot of 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:56.880 time fine tuning because he served as the club professional 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.480 and basically in house architect at at Essex County for 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.320 several years in the nineteen tens, but since he basically 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:11.000 stopped working there in about nineteen seventeen, Essex County feels 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:15.040 more old school in its design style than Pinehurst Number Two. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:19.040 Ross worked on Pinehurst Number two essentially for the rest 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.080 of his life, but Essex County is more frozen in time. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.120 The greens are simpler, the features are a little bit 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.960 less naturalized. But I think all these factors just add 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:35.280 to the charm of Essex County and make it feel unique. 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:40.320 It's a fantastic piece of land. It's rocky, but because 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:43.520 the ocean isn't that far away, it actually feels a 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.560 little bit lynxy as well. The most prominent feature is 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:53.120 a huge knull that the back nine plays around. Then 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:57.200 the seventeenth hole climbs directly on top of the hill 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.800 and the eighteenth hole plays off of it. It's a 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:05.040 roller coaster at the end of the round. There incredibly 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.200 daring piece of routing. I can't believe that Donald Ross 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.400 thought to put those holes in that location, but it 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:16.080 makes for one of the most dramatic finishes to around 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.200 that I know of. Essex County is also one of 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.120 the best examples I think of golf course restoration of 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:27.200 Donald Ross Restoration, specifically, the consulting architect Bruce Hepner and 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:32.200 the longtime superintendent Eric Richardson have done an absolutely excellent 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.479 job making small changes over the past twenty years or 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.159 so that have added up to big changes, and the 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.240 result is that Essex County might be the most historically 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:49.039 authentic Donald Ross course in existence. All Right, The third 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.480 Ross course I'd like to discuss is the South Course 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:58.080 at Oakland Hills Country Club outside of Detroit, Michigan. Donald 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.800 Ross designed this course in NI teen nineteen, and I 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.360 think it's really when he reached full maturity as an architect. 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:12.680 His routing ability, his sense for how to create variety 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.640 and strategy in golf holes, his green building techniques, his 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:23.000 mastery of construction and shaping are all fully developed here, 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.480 and this might be his single best set of greens 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.680 among championship golf courses. It's probably the closest thing that 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.719 we have to augusta national in terms of the sheer, 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.520 inventiveness and boldness of the contouring of the greens, of 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.800 the variety that you get between different greens. You have 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.560 everything from the eleventh green, which is very small and 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.799 kind of tucked into a saddle to the sixth green, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.880 which has these wavy, rippling undulations that extend out to 0:06:55.920 --> 0:07:00.560 the edge of the putting surface and create little pockets 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:04.159 and shelves for pins, some hard pins, some easy pins. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:09.160 It's just really complex and striking. But a lot of 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.640 these features became hidden over the years at at Oakland 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:17.680 Hills because the fairways and greens got smaller, trees were planted. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.080 Rhys Jones and Robert Trent Jones did some work that, 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.320 in my opinion, wasn't very good, but Gil Hans's renovation 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.840 a few years ago brought back a lot of what 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.680 I love about Oakland Hills. Hans definitely modernized some things. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.080 The agronomic infrastructure at Oakland Hills is now very up 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:42.480 to date, but the golf features themselves do closely resemble 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:47.080 what Donald Ross did back in nineteen nineteen. And I 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:50.040 think that when people see Oakland Hills host the US 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.640 Open in twenty thirty four, that they're going to be 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:56.080 really impressed and that they're going to wish that Oakland 0:07:56.160 --> 0:07:59.880 Hills would host the US Open more frequently than the 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.200 every twenty years, which is kind of the cadence that 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.640 it's on now. All right. Fourth Donald Ross course that 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.680 I think is essential is a Ronoman golf club in 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:16.680 Philadelphia or near Philadelphia. This is the current years PGA 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.600 Championship venue. Really cool golf course that I think got 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.600 a bit of a bad break with weather at the 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:28.080 past couple of PGA Tour events that it hosted. The 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.480 excellence of the course didn't come through as much in 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.520 those tournaments because I think that the greens need to 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.600 play firm. There needs to be a little bit of 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.120 win So I'm hoping that we get that, but I'm 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.720 not sure that we will get it in May, so 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:46.640 we'll see about that. But yeah, I've heard Tom Doak 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.320 say that Donald Ross was the best in the world 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:57.960 at working out good routings of rectangular constricted properties. Those 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.000 properties can be pretty tricky because you often end up 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.439 with a lot of parallel holes or parts of the 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:08.680 routing that feel cramped or unnatural. But Donald Ross was 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.600 always so good at finding ways to make routings on 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:19.520 this type of site feel open and organic and multidirectional 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:26.120 rather than linear and awkward and constricted and aronom Mink 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:28.959 is an excellent excellent example of that. If you look 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.760 at a map of the course. Just pay attention to 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:36.280 the way the routing constantly bounces between the boundaries of 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.560 the site and the middle of the site, and the 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:42.040 ways that holes kind of work on diagonals out to 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.040 corners and then go out in different directions. The routing 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:51.640 is continually changing direction and doing something different. It's really 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.960 pretty brilliant how Ross worked that out. And then you 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.800 have the greens, which is it's one of the best 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:02.280 sets of Donald Ross green anywhere. I think it's right 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:07.160 up there with Oakland Hills. They're very, very inventive, and 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:12.200 you know, each green feels like it's part of a theme, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.120 but it is memorable in and of itself. So yeah, 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.520 aronomic great golf course. I hope it comes through in 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:25.280 the telecast for the PGA Championship. Finally, we have Seminole 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.839 Golf Club in South Florida. Donald Ross built this course 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.280 in the late nineteen twenties, so this was toward the 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:37.160 end of his golden period and someone is currently undergoing 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:42.080 a pretty ambitious Gilhan's renovation. Hans is making some big 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:46.400 changes to the greens. He is, you know, bringing back 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:51.040 some planned Ross characteristics of those greens that might or 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.280 might not have actually been put in the ground. It's 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:57.560 a pretty interesting project and I'm curious to see the 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.240 outcome of it. But for me, what has always made 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:07.160 Seminole special is the combination of the seaside wind and 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.719 the constant changes of direction in the routing. This is 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.040 another example of Ross just being better than everybody else 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:20.959 at coming up with routings on smallish, roughly rectangular properties. 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.320 Seminole is brilliant in that regard. There's never a moment 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:30.080 where the routing feels limited or stuck in a certain direction. 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:34.040 And in particular, the way Ross uses the big ridges 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:39.040 at either end of the site is brilliant. There's a 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.440 big ridge on the ocean side portion of the site 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:47.080 and then there's a an accompanying ridge kind of parallel inland, 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:52.560 and the holes are constantly interacting with these two big 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:58.200 topographical features. So there's a lot of action on the 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:02.040 golf course on a site that could have ended up 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.920 being a little bit boring. So those are my five 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:11.440 essential Donald Ross courses. Pinehurst Number two, Essex County Club, 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:16.600 Oakland Hills, South Brooni, Mink and Seminole. Now, the greatest 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.280 thing I think about studying Donald Ross is that his 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.320 body of work is so deep and rich that you 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.840 never really feel like you're at the bottom of it, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.600 or that you don't have more to learn. You know, 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:35.720 of the great architects, there might have been a few 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:42.360 who built more firstier all time courses than Ross. Maybe 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.840 Alistair Mackenzie did, Harry Colt probably did, or in the 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.080 modern period Corn Crenshaw and Tom Doak are running up 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:54.160 the score in that regard. But I'm not sure any 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:59.840 architect has ever built as many very good slash excellent 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.320 courses as Donald Ross did. This is partly because he 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:06.760 had a lot of reps. He did a lot of projects. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.280 He was always on the train, always looking at new sites, 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.880 always coming up with plans, maybe not seeing some of 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.520 these courses again after he submitted to plans. But in 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.920 spite of that working method, he had a really high 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.280 hit rate. If you go to a Donald Ross course 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.040 that has been pretty well preserved and was actually designed 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.040 by Donald Ross, you can almost be assured that it's 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.840 going to be well routed, well built, have some memorable 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:41.000 holes and cool greens, and be really playable and fun. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:48.079 He was the professional architects professional architect, and so beyond 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.920 just his five essential courses. It's really worth pursuing and 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.800 exploring Donald Ross's full catalog, so have fun with that. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.680 All right, I'd like to continue this discussion of Donald 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:08.240 Ross with doctor Bradley S. Klein. Bradklin, as I mentioned 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:12.120 at the top, is one of the og modern golf 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.400 architecture writers. He was doing this stuff in the eighties 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.640 and nineties before it was fashionable, and he did a 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:25.000 lot specifically to enhance people's understanding and appreciation of Donald Ross. 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.840 So I'm very excited to toss him some questions from 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.320 members of Frida Egg Golf Club. We got some really good, 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.400 thoughtful questions from FEGC, and if you'd like to participate 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.560 in future mail bags. First of all, make sure to 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.280 join Frida Egg Golf Club. Go to the Friday dot 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.520 com slash memberships to sign up. I said memberships, but 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.520 it's actually not plural, it's slash membership. And then make 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.000 sure to keep up with what's going on in our 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.720 member forum, because that is where I put out this 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.240 call for questions. All right, without further ado, here's my 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:14.680 conversation with Brad Klein. I'm here with Bradley Klein. Brad, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:15.920 how are you doing today. 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:20.640 Great, the beautiful starting to get some spring weather. Might 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.640 actually go play golf one of these days. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.160 It's starting to get to be that week when we 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.760 make the decision to take the clubs out of the 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.120 garage and go do our best. 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.600 Yeah yeah, every morning, and still we have frost delays, 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:38.600 but it warms up. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:43.600 So yeah. Well, so today we're talking about Donald Ross 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.320 in advance of the PGA Championship at aronom Ink. And 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:49.400 I thought the way that we would do this, Brad, 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:54.040 would be to ask some of our members at Friday 0:15:54.120 --> 0:16:01.160 Golf Club for any questions they have about Donald Ross's design, philosophy, career, 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:04.760 or whatever else. I got a bunch of really good questions, 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.760 and so we're just gonna dive into the mail bag here. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.840 The first question I have for you is from Zach Anderson, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:17.120 and Zach asks if you were blindfolded and led onto 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:23.200 an anonymous golf course, what elements routing, hazard placement, green 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.760 shapes would tell you it's a Ross design. And I 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.680 like this question a lot because it kind of gets 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.080 that what you think is distinctive about Donald Ross's design style, 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.800 which can be a little tricky to pin down because 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.200 there are many Donald Ross's, so to speak. So how 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:43.280 would you answer that question? 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:46.760 As first of all, it's a great question, and I'm 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.680 always appreciative of anything that is different than what are 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.960 your three favorite Donald Ross courses? Right, So that's actually 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.320 a very thoughtful question. So the first thing is that 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:03.840 Donald Ross were a century ago. It's now twenty twenty six, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.960 and we're going to be looking at golf courses that 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:11.600 have evolved over one hundred and twenty to eighty years, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.840 so there's a little bit of a qualifier. But the 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:16.719 first thing I would look at is the routing. And 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.959 by what I mean by the routing is the sequence 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:25.240 of the holes, how they fit onto the parcel. And 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:31.560 with Ross, it's fairly distinctive that there is an intimate 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:36.960 relationship between green to next tea. You're not walking a 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:42.160 long ways. He fills up the space. As someone once 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.480 described it, it's like a bowl of baby shrimp. They 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:51.120 all fit together and there's not a lot of superfluous space. 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.200 He'll have the occasional triangle of one hundred and fifty 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.560 yards for a practice area, but for the most part, 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.320 the dog legs fit in a way that is really intimate. 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.159 So that's what I would look for is kind of 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:10.879 an intimate connection. Most but not all of his golf 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:17.159 courses are returning nines the later the second half of 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.720 his career. You know, he came to the United States 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.879 in eighteen ninety nine. He designed about four hundred and 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.840 ten courses until his death in nineteen forty eight, roughly 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.240 a couple of different phases in the middle, but a 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.840 little more strategic. I would say that more of his 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:37.200 courses are returning nines in the second half of his career. 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:39.320 But I would look at the intimacy of the routing. 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:45.280 That's the first thing. The second thing, and are the 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.680 green contourse. Now, this is tricky because over a long 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:55.520 period of time and maintenance and neglect and alteration, a 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.760 lot of his greens have shrunk, They've become more circular, 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.320 they've lost some of then a lot of the contour 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.480 because of top dressing. The square edges up front have 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:10.080 been rounded off through triplex mowing or normal practices. So 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.840 that's a little harder to determine. But I would I 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:18.160 always look at his the position of the greens, so 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:22.000 that they're set on a little bit of a rise, 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.119 and the back that tends to fall off because what 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.199 he would do or has met his construction crew. You know, 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.680 he was building or having his golf courses built by 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:37.679 hand labor, dozens of laborers with wheelbarrows for the most part, 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.280 and they would build up the fill pad of the 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.080 green by taking the dirt from behind and then just 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.720 piling it on. And you know, a couple of days 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:49.480 of that, and you have a fill pad that rises 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.000 three feet in the back one foot in the front. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:54.320 So I would look for those fall offs in the 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.119 back that balance the cut and fill that comprises the 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.880 fill pad. So that's the second thing I would look for, 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:05.719 and then I would look for the fairway bunkering and 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.879 the green side bunkering. His fairway bunkering tended to be 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.840 about two hundred yards to twenty off the tee of 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.439 what was then the back tape the turnpoints. Some of 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.280 those have been a lot of those have been lost 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.480 over the years. But I always love looking for what 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.800 the ghost bunkers, the sort of abandoned hollows. I remember 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:31.399 when I was doing my preview of Oak Hill for 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:33.840 the twenty three PGA, and I went around with an 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.920 assistant pro and I was pointing out to him the 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:42.600 old ghost bunkers from the shorter part placement that had 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:44.760 been altered over the years, and you still see those 0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:49.120 in the ground because when they abandoned bunkers over the years, 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:52.320 they wouldn't fill them in, they just let the grass grow. 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.679 So you sort of look for those signs of the 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.120 ghost bunkers. And also you look for the fill pad, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.480 the green, the platform that sits on with the bunkers 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.720 tended to be put at the base of the fill pad, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.680 so that you had a natural rise of a foot 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:09.639 or two down into the bunker and a foot or 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.400 two up to the green, and that formed your three 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.880 and a half four foot the depth of the bunker. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:21.080 So you look for those kind of characteristics generally, and 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:28.040 that's the start. I would say of Moross, you'd often 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:31.320 find a very short part three surrounded by bunkers. I 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.720 could five of them right off the top of you know, 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.919 want to moist it. The third hole to Ujica, the 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:43.320 seventh hole, SIOUTA, the ninth hole for example, come right 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:50.920 to mind. And very often a short, very short part 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.600 three surrounded by bunkers, with a little bit of a 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.320 hollow and a and then a little bit of a 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:04.120 ledge behind the hollow for the whole locations. So those 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:07.440 are the things you look for right away or tell 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:08.480 tale I would say. 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:13.240 Follow up question from Zach Anderson related to what you're 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:16.480 just saying, are there any kind of template holes Donald 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:18.720 Ross template holes that people should look for? You just 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.199 named the short par three surrounded by bunkers. Something that 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.399 comes to mind for me is a you know, a 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.360 volcano green, so called volcano green, although there aren't an 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:32.399 overwhelming number of those, but they are very memorable, and 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:35.439 so you know, whenever you see one of those holes 0:22:35.480 --> 0:22:38.119 with the that where the green kind of set on 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.400 a knob that falls off on all sides, you remember it. 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.240 Yeah. The best one is the thirteenth of Franklin Hills 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.680 in Detroit. That's absolutely three hundred and ten yard hole 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:51.119 with a yeah, probably a two thousand square foot green 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:52.760 perched way up in the air. 0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:56.399 Yeah, very cool hole and interesting that it's not a 0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:00.240 part three in the case of Franklin Hills. But there 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.920 are a few of those Ross Ross volcano greens. There's 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:07.240 another one at Lulu country Club, I guess, and the 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.080 Country Club of Buffalo, and there are a few here 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.240 and there. But are there any other It was was 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.840 Ross somebody who thought in terms of template holes at all? 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:23.400 No, did not. So just as an example, you name 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:26.240 Country Club of Buffalo, the volcano hole, there is a 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.919 middle length part three, the sixth hole, you know. And 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:33.560 then so here's the thing with Ross. He was trying 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:37.159 to work to puzzle out all those shrimp falling together 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.560 on that platform or in that bowl that he was 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.800 working with, and so you know, he would often, I 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:46.600 would say that he often relied upon a very short 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:50.640 part three if there's a template hole, although they differ dramatically, 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.800 but I've seen a lot of the very short little 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:58.720 drop shot part three. And again we've mentioned a few 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:02.160 of them already, the restored fifth hole at Oak Hill, 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:02.960 for example. 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:05.960 There's a great one at Roaring Gap. It's kind of 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:09.159 a combination of a volcano hole and a and a 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.080 and a drop shot par three. It is, I believe 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.439 the sixth hole, but don't quote me on that. In 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:16.000 any case, striking hole. 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.040 Yeah, But you know, sometimes they were uphill, like the 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:22.919 fourteenth at Augusta Country Club. So it varied a lot here. 0:24:24.480 --> 0:24:27.920 But I've seen, you know, I would say I've seen 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.800 that a lot on US courses and I've also seen 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:36.920 a very long part three two thirty, the fourteenth that 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.960 ok Kill, the thirteenth at Wamping on the fourth at Worcester, 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:47.480 for example, come immediately to mind. The seventeenth at Brayburn, 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:56.160 come you know, so they the ninth at oak Kill 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:59.880 also you'll see a long part three. But having said 0:24:59.880 --> 0:25:04.119 that the bunkering would have varied, the contouring would have varied, 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.480 I will say that I have seen more of that 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.800 short part three with the thumb print green up front 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:15.680 and the little shelf around the back of it, and 0:25:17.040 --> 0:25:21.200 but I haven't seen it. At every course you will 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:26.359 often see a shorter I wouldn't call a driveable part four, 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:28.879 but you'll see a three hundred and fifty three hundred 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:32.399 and forty yard par four very well bunkered in the 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:36.840 landing area with a small green idle hour in Kentucky 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:41.119 in Lexington, Kentucky. The fourth hole, although they keep changing 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:44.240 the nines, but it's the fourth hole there Uphill comes 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:47.159 to mind. A third at Pinehurst, number two kind of 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:47.760 a classic. 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:50.520 Yet will yeah drive on a pedgehole? 0:25:51.280 --> 0:25:54.920 Yeah yeah? The sixth that Oakland at Oakland Hills, for example, 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:59.640 comes right to mind there as well, you'll see a 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:04.679 shot a much shorter hole. They were never drivable in 0:26:04.720 --> 0:26:09.080 those days. They've become driveable. But he was very good 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:14.280 at throwing in the occasional short part four, not usually 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:16.679 at the start or at the end of a round, 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:20.440 although when he got squeezed for territory like fourteen the 0:26:20.720 --> 0:26:24.240 eighteenth hole in Inverness, and he wasn't averse to using 0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:27.840 a short hole to end Wooster the same thing. Beautiful, 0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:32.199 short little hole, but with a lot of contour and 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:35.000 a lot of complexity to the landing zone. So there 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:40.960