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Speaker 1: Fol Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Ah, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast where

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Speaker 2: we talk about the worst people in all of history.

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Speaker 2: And today's part two on our series on John aspinall

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Speaker 2: the gambling King of London in the fifties and sixties.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. That made him sound much cooler

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Speaker 1: than he actually is.

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Speaker 2: Ah. He is fun. He is fun. Today we're going

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Speaker 2: to get a lot of stories about zoo animals maiming people.

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Speaker 2: So I hope everybody's ready for that, and I hope

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Speaker 2: our guest Ed Zitron is ready for that. Ed welcome back.

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Speaker 3: I'm ready. I'm ready to hear about some violent zoo animals.

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Speaker 2: Excellent, All right, well here is the fucking story. So

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Speaker 2: John aspinall you know, it is kind of the the

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Speaker 2: fifties are starting to come to a close. Is in

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Speaker 2: a great He's pretty happy, right, He's running these rotating

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Speaker 2: games of chants that are in this legal gray area.

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Speaker 2: He's making a lot of money doing. It's starting to collect,

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Speaker 2: you know, wild animals, starting to build his private zoo.

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Speaker 2: But things are going to like kind of have a

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Speaker 2: sudden shift for him, and it's caused by his mom. Right,

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Speaker 2: she is sort of you know, one of the people

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Speaker 2: who's kind of renting houses for their parties. She's a

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Speaker 2: kind of a key aspect of all this. And the

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Speaker 2: lady Osborne makes a mistake one week in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 2: eight and she rents the wrong house for a shimmy

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Speaker 2: party because it's it's outside of their usual range and

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Speaker 2: it's under the jurisdiction of the Paddington Police, who are

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Speaker 2: not chill with what John Aspinall is doing for reasons

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Speaker 2: that I've never really been made clear to me. But

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Speaker 2: this is not a friendly police station. I don't know why,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, so there's and part of what seems to

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Speaker 2: have happened is I think they pissed off one of

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Speaker 2: these rich people who loses a bunch of money at

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Speaker 2: their games because it looks like he kind of drops

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Speaker 2: a dime on them to the Paddington cops. And so

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Speaker 2: for the very first time, the police carry out a

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Speaker 2: raid on one of these games he's playing. And because

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Speaker 2: this is the kind of game that it is, they

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Speaker 2: arrest a bunch of like lords and ladies along with

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Speaker 2: Aspenall in his friends. It's this like big moment in

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Speaker 2: high society because like there's footage like pictures of the

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Speaker 2: cops leading out all of these very, very highly born

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Speaker 2: people and taking them into custody. Very This kind of

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Speaker 2: gives you an idea of sort of the tinor of

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Speaker 2: that night when when the police enter the house, Lady

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Speaker 2: Osborne demands a list of the charges against them, and

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Speaker 2: the police inspector says that they're being charged with keeping

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Speaker 2: a common gambling house, and her response is, young man,

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Speaker 2: there was nothing common in this house until you entered.

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Speaker 3: It got him. Yeah, I'm sure he love that bit.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure was like, oh, perfectly, Yeah, that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, sorry, I'm faddy of a comment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is so perfect.

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Speaker 3: That's classic England.

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Speaker 2: Now, that said, if you are an above room temperature person,

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Speaker 2: you're probably not surprised to hear that nothing happens as

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Speaker 2: a result of this legal case. Right, not only does

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Speaker 2: aspinall have money, but like they have arrested all of

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Speaker 2: the people who are running the country, so it doesn't

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Speaker 2: go anywhere. He's a little bit yeah, yeah, not only

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Speaker 2: are their charges dismissed, but the arrest of all these

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Speaker 2: people kind of radicalizes a number of influential Britons and

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty Parliament passes what became known as Aspinall's Law,

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Speaker 2: the Gaming Act, which legalizes us you never want to

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Speaker 2: law named after No. It's always a bad thing, like

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Speaker 2: Maxg's disease.

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Speaker 3: Also a bad one, like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, also a bad one. But this makes it legal

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Speaker 2: for people to run casinos in London, which is what

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Speaker 2: this is why London becomes the gambling capital of Europe

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Speaker 2: for a while. Right, it's because of Aspinall's Law. So

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Speaker 2: the downside of this is that, like, now he has competition.

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Speaker 2: Right back when it was this gray area, he'd kind

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Speaker 2: of figured out a sweet spot. There was nobody else

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Speaker 2: really running these chimney games on the same scale that

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Speaker 2: he is. Now anyone can run a chimney game. So

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Speaker 2: Aspinall has to kind of think bigger. And on November twelfth,

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two, he opens his ultimate gaming hall, the Claremont.

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Speaker 2: Now this is in like a neighborhood in London called Mayfair,

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Speaker 2: which is like super rich neighborhood. Right, this is like

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Speaker 2: a very central Yeah, it's like a nice place to

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Speaker 2: do this kind of shit. And he, you know, he

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Speaker 2: has this. If you look at videos from this gaming hall,

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Speaker 2: it's like very high ceilings, huge chandeliers, like it's a

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Speaker 2: place for the wealthy and the well born to feel comfortable.

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Speaker 2: Like Crockford, he limits his business to a pretty select clientele.

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Speaker 2: Kind of as time goes on he opens it up

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Speaker 2: more to like new money, but certainly at the start

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Speaker 2: it's really focused on the ancestrally wealthy, and there's this

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Speaker 2: kind of two tiered membership structure that's also how the

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Speaker 2: club is run. The people who are kind of technically

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Speaker 2: his employees, although he's not open about this, are called

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Speaker 2: the blues, and these are mostly Some of them are

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Speaker 2: like high born people who don't have a lot of

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Speaker 2: money but are good gamblers. Some of them are like

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Speaker 2: people of more common stock who are just really good gamblers,

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Speaker 2: but they are his house gamblers, and their goal is

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Speaker 2: not to win in order to get money. Sometimes they

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Speaker 2: do that, but it's largely if you're really good, you

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Speaker 2: can kind of influence games to keep them running, right,

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Speaker 2: to keep them going longer, because the longer different games

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Speaker 2: go on, the longer a hand goes on, the more

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Speaker 2: money gets put in. Right, and since the house is

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Speaker 2: taking a cut out of every pot, that works out

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Speaker 2: better for you. Right, you don't need your house guys

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Speaker 2: to win, but you need them to keep the game going.

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Speaker 2: So the pot is bigger and you get a bigger cut, right.

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Speaker 2: And so these guys, the Blues, they get free membership

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Speaker 2: in the club and they receive a basic salary for

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Speaker 2: their work. The Reds are the marks, and these are

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Speaker 2: the sons of power and prestige who he's going to

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Speaker 2: rob blind right now. A couple of years after the

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Speaker 2: Claremont opens, in nineteen sixty eight, John Aspinall opens his

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Speaker 2: zoo doors to I say, the public. It's most It

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Speaker 2: is a private zoo, so you have to pay to

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Speaker 2: get in. But it becomes like this is the zoo

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Speaker 2: you go to if you're rich, right, You're not going

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Speaker 2: to like the London zoo, right, that's where common people

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Speaker 2: go to look at at endangered animals. You're gonna go

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Speaker 2: to Aspenall Zoo. Right now. The fact that he's opened

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Speaker 2: his home zoo to the public is against the express

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Speaker 2: advice of like expert zoo keepers he had consulted, who

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Speaker 2: didn't think that he had like the temperament to safely

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Speaker 2: run a zoo, which turns out to be a wise concern.

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Speaker 2: But he also has this very unique view on the

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Speaker 2: care of animals, right. He thinks that they should be

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Speaker 2: offered different food regularly so that they have like a

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Speaker 2: varied diet and so that their diet is more exciting.

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Speaker 2: He thinks it bores them, which he's kind of right about.

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Speaker 2: And he also thinks that they need constant stimuli, which

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Speaker 2: is true.

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Speaker 3: I'm also sorry, but I never really considered one's temperament

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Speaker 3: a feature of a zoo, just because generally a zoo

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Speaker 3: is not controlled by one person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, his is. So he gets to it's good. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's great, it's good, and it's bad. The animals in

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Speaker 2: his zoo, some people are you, seem to have been

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Speaker 2: happier than like most other zoos at the time because

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Speaker 2: he's feeding them. Sometimes he'll bring them like like he'll

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Speaker 2: bring his gorillas gourmet food from the Claremont and shit,

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Speaker 2: and he has. He and his zoo keepers spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of time playing physically with the animals, which, as

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about, is dangerous. But the animals seem to

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Speaker 2: be happier, and the best evidence for this is John's

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Speaker 2: peculiar history with gorillas. He meets his first gorilla at

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Speaker 2: the London Zoo. This old silverback named Guy, and because

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Speaker 2: he's he's got money, he's able to basically like convince

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Speaker 2: the zoo keepers to let him try to hang out

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Speaker 2: with Guy. You know, he'll feed the animal and stuff.

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Speaker 2: But like, Guy is an adult silver back, so he's

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Speaker 2: not super like into being buds. But meeting this animal

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Speaker 2: that like won't be his friend makes John obsessed with

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Speaker 2: the idea that one day I will make an adult

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Speaker 2: male gorilla be my best friend. To befriend a gorilla,

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Speaker 2: I am going to befriend a gorilla. Yeah, that is

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Speaker 2: my life goal.

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Speaker 3: I now I've successfully defrauded a bunch of rich people.

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Speaker 3: Now I move on to defrauding a gorilla. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to convince a gorilla that one become the gorilla's friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What a what a wild life goal. So he's

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Speaker 2: he's gonna make this gorilla his best friend. So after

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Speaker 2: he moves into Howlitz, you know, he gets the zoo started,

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Speaker 2: he uses some of his infinite gambling money to buy

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Speaker 2: a gorilla. And the first gorilla he gets again, anyone

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Speaker 2: can have any animal at this point in time if

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Speaker 2: they have enough money. So he finds a gorilla some

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Speaker 2: other rich guy had owned named KEI.

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Speaker 3: Was gonna say, how does one purchase a gorilla?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's it's through a gorilla dealer. You know you've

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Speaker 2: got a guy.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gorilla guy. Yeah, yeah, I get a gorilla guy.

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Speaker 3: Stay you going to gorillas this week?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I got some fun cut silver yea, A lovely one

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Speaker 3: coming in next week. You love it. He'll be your friend.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately for John, and more unfortunately for this gorilla named Kievu.

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Speaker 2: Kivu is his is bit of abuse victim. This gorilla

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Speaker 2: has PTSD. It's deeply traumatized. Now, to his credit, John

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Speaker 2: recognizes this is a traumatized animal and he uses human

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Speaker 2: logic to try to comfort it. And he's like, you

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Speaker 2: know what makes a sad man happy is a woman.

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Speaker 2: So he gets a human woman, his mother in law,

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Speaker 2: to like sleep in bed with this gorilla to try

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Speaker 2: to soothe it. That's his that's his strategy.

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Speaker 3: My.

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Speaker 2: Now, gorilla's not aggressive animals to people, and so this

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Speaker 2: doesn't go badly. His mother in law doesn't get like

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Speaker 2: hurt or anything.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start there.

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Speaker 2: Kivu does not seem to like well, I think John

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Speaker 2: may have disliked that woman and Kivu that's my point.

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Speaker 2: Does not respond positively to this, Like, again, gorillas are

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Speaker 2: quite peaceful. He doesn't like attack her, but he dies

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Speaker 2: of depression a couple of months into this man, that

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Speaker 2: woman was very sad.

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Speaker 1: Women are evil, as we've established, and that one.

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Speaker 2: Sophie, I don't know. That's the lesson. He died in

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Speaker 2: the same way that potme died in st He does,

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Speaker 2: he does. He doesn't badme.

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Speaker 1: She made that gorilla have depression.

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Speaker 2: I mean the gorilla was already depressed, Sophie.

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Speaker 3: You made it worse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, with her like horrible woman.

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Speaker 2: Well I did not see this this turn from you, Sophie.

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Speaker 2: Man the subredd it's gonna have a field day with

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Speaker 2: this one.

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Speaker 1: No, they're finally going to be on my side.

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Speaker 2: So wow. You know, John is very sad for a while.

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Speaker 2: But I think this is a commonly known thing. When

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Speaker 2: you lose a gorilla, the only thing to do is

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Speaker 2: double down and get two.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you need more gorilla, You need more gorillas, right,

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Speaker 4: The problem was not gorillas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the market I imagine is quite liquid at this time,

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Speaker 3: so like a gorilla is floating around.

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Speaker 2: So he buys two more gorillas, a breeding pair, and

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Speaker 2: he sets about making them happy enough to breed. Now

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Speaker 2: this had been done at there, that people had bred gorillas.

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Speaker 2: At this point, it is kind of considered one of

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Speaker 2: the one of like the brass rings of the zoo

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Speaker 2: world is getting gorillas to breed in captivity. It's not easy,

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Speaker 2: right like, they are hard to make comfortable enough to

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Speaker 2: be willing to make a gorilla horny. It's tough to

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Speaker 2: make a gorilla horny. So John works on these gorillas.

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Speaker 2: He spends a lot of time intimately with them. He

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Speaker 2: wrestles with them, right, He'll like play games with them physically,

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Speaker 2: He'll cuddle with them at night, and they they do

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Speaker 2: seem to come to view him as a friend, and

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Speaker 2: it gets comfortable enough that they they start to breed.

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Speaker 2: Right like, he does succeed in making them happy enough

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Speaker 2: that they are willing to make more gorillas. So I

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Speaker 2: guess that it's a win for him. He also grows

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Speaker 2: closer with his bears during this period of time, which

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Speaker 2: is an uneven process. Right one day, What a.

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Speaker 3: Great other thing to happen in this story, of course,

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Speaker 3: see as he romances the gorillas, he successfully improves his

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Speaker 3: friendship with the It's like fucking like an RPG.

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Speaker 2: Unevenly, I should say, because one day he like enters

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Speaker 2: the bear inclosure without sort of like you know you would.

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Speaker 2: There's a there's a certain way you want to enter

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Speaker 2: your bear enclosure to not spook them. He doesn't do this,

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Speaker 2: and they they maul him. They nearly kill him, right like.

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Speaker 2: He gets horribly injured by these bears, and his mother

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Speaker 2: around the same time is nearly murdered. A wolf that

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Speaker 2: he's trying to treat like a dog almost rips her

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Speaker 2: throat out of course he's got a wolf. Of course

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Speaker 2: he's got a wolf. Yeah, you're gonna have a wolf.

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Speaker 3: Gonna have a gorilla with that wolf. Gon'na have a

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Speaker 3: really without bath like.

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Speaker 2: So his his family narrowly escapes anything fatal. But this

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Speaker 2: mix of complete dissociation from reality because he's this wealthy,

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Speaker 2: gambling maven, combined with spending all of his free time

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Speaker 2: cuddling with wild animals, leads John to kind of believe

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Speaker 2: that he's gone feral himself, right swee. He would later say,

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Speaker 2: sometimes when I'm pleased to meet a friend, I find

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Speaker 2: myself purring like a tiger. When I make love, I

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Speaker 2: even grunt like a gorilla. That's just how British people sound.

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Speaker 2: One like fuck, yeah, so that's good. That's good. He

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Speaker 2: was so convinced that he has gained some secret insight

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Speaker 2: into the lives of the gorillas that he's willing to

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Speaker 2: bet his life on it. At one point on safari

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Speaker 2: in Africa, a friend has to rescue him when a

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Speaker 2: male lion starts roaring at the party. And John, you

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Speaker 2: know there's a lion outside of your camp that's being aggressive.

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Speaker 2: You want to stay inside the camp, you know where

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Speaker 2: there's lights and men with guns. John charges out into

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Speaker 2: the night, and he claims later I wanted to reason

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Speaker 2: with it, like yeah, yeah, that don't work on a lion.

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Speaker 3: That's fine. Come on, might have a word with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they love being recent.

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Speaker 3: Let me know how it goes. I will be inside

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Speaker 3: the car.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of his friends basically has to like tackle

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Speaker 2: him to stop him from getting murdered by this.

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Speaker 3: Let him, let him cook, let's see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so as his collection might don't Yeah, yeah that

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Speaker 2: one made who saves you from getting eaten by a lion?

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Speaker 3: No, I mean one might go strong reason with the

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Speaker 3: lion who tries to talk it out with a pines

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Speaker 3: doAnd the local he's all fucking yelling at the lions,

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Speaker 3: trying a reason, we're Steve come.

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Speaker 2: Then, so his collection expands and how it's becomes again

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Speaker 2: it's this kind of the private zoo of the ultra rich.

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Speaker 2: And by the late nineteen six again there's a degree

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Speaker 2: to he's very irresponsible in a lot of ways, but

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Speaker 2: there is a degree to which he's good at this

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Speaker 2: because by the end of the sixties, Aspinall has the

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Speaker 2: largest captive bread gorilla call in the world, which is

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Speaker 2: an achievement, you know, dubiously moral achievement, but that is

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Speaker 2: a thing to have done, right, So.

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Speaker 3: I genuinely have to say this. Yeah, one through line

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Speaker 3: with this is that this boy was raised kind of cruelly. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like he went through the school system. But weirdly enough,

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Speaker 3: I have to wonder if a lot of these people

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Speaker 3: gems the wokest thing. I'll say, genuinely, if a lot

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Speaker 3: of these people didn't actually have good hearts but were

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Speaker 3: just torn up by this hellish system that Britain had

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Speaker 3: created called Britain. And just this is the result of

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Speaker 3: this horrifying school system, this horrifying culture, is that you

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Speaker 3: just have this fucking nutter who is only able to

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Speaker 3: really be nice to gorillas to make them fuck. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but he's so utterly broken that he does not know

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Speaker 3: how to communicate with animals or humans alike. He only

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Speaker 3: knows how to exploit them. Yeah, depressing, oways, nothing about

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Speaker 3: this is depressing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it is like fascinating. But if he had

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Speaker 2: grown up like in an environment that was like both

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Speaker 2: more nurturing and also where there was some degree of

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Speaker 2: like rigor placed on, like, you know, maybe he could

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Speaker 2: have become like a normal wildlife expert, you know. His Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he seems to actually have a talent. He has some

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Speaker 2: degree of a gift here. It's just married to this

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Speaker 2: inability to not be crazy about it, right, Yes, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because he's he's like effectively like a miniature deity, like

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Speaker 2: at this point in time.

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Speaker 3: Right, he thinks he's craven Hanta.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's something else. So while he again there's

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Speaker 2: this undeniable element of skill in what he is, his

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Speaker 2: irresponsibility also gets people horribly, horribly injured and worse in

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Speaker 2: the future. And the first example of this in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy He's got this friend Annabel Burley. Annabel is a

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Speaker 2: social lighte. She is an aristocratic lady. She's married at

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Speaker 2: that point to a businessman named Mark Burley, and she

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Speaker 2: comes to visit Howlitz with her young son Robin and

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Speaker 2: her daughter. She's close with the Aspinall family. You know

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Speaker 2: their kids are going to hang out together, and obviously,

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Speaker 2: being children, you take a bunch of children to a

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Speaker 2: place like Hawlitz, they want to see the animals. Of course,

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Speaker 2: that's what kids are going to want to do. So

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Speaker 2: Lord Aspinall only too happy to oblige them. Quote and

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Speaker 2: this is from Pearson's book The Gamblers. After seeing the gorillas,

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Speaker 2: Aspinall was anxious to take them all to see one

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Speaker 2: of his young female tigers called Zora. Annabel was not

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Speaker 2: so keen on this and wouldn't let her daughter India

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Speaker 2: Jane into the cage with the other children, like Damien

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Speaker 2: and Amanda. Rupert was used to the animals, but Robin

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Speaker 2: was nervous. Though Aspinall persuaded him to approach the tiger

340
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Speaker 2: and stroke her, Aspinall turned his back for just one moment.

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Speaker 2: In that split second, the tiger, sensing Robin's fear, rose

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Speaker 2: on her hind legs, put her front paws on his

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Speaker 2: shoulders and pushed him to the ground. Snarling, she shook

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Speaker 2: the boy's head in her mouth. Seeing what was happening,

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Speaker 2: Aspinall leapt towards the tiger, and with the show of strength,

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Speaker 2: somehow prized her jaws apart. By doing this, he undoubtedly

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Speaker 2: saved Robin's life. Min Aspinall that's his wife, meanwhile, was

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Speaker 2: tugging at the tiger's tail, trying to prevent its rear

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Speaker 2: claws tearing at the boy's body. Somehow, between the two

350
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Speaker 2: of them, they made the tiger drop her prey. Rigid

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Speaker 2: with fear at the nightmare taking place before her eyes,

352
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Speaker 2: Annabel watched as James Osborne rushed forward and picked up

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Speaker 2: her son, who was still conscious. Rupert and Nindia Jane

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Speaker 2: were terrified and screaming. As James carried Robin out of

355
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Speaker 2: the cage to safety, Annabel could see that the lower

356
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 2: left hand side of his face was crushed past recognition,

357
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,159
Speaker 2: his mouth had disappeared, and part of his jaw was

358
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Speaker 2: hanging by a thread. So maybe don't let children in

359
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Speaker 2: a cage. Good tiger, he lives, he will make a recovery.

360
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Speaker 2: They like he has to go immediately into surgery. He

361
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Speaker 2: has like.

362
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Speaker 3: Scars, a recovery of sorts.

363
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they described that probably some trauma one would is

364
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 2: alive PTSD from getting your sixty. Yeah yeah, it's uh yeah,

365
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Speaker 2: very arist.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like a story from like the eighteen hundreds, but

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Speaker 3: this is alarmingly recent.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is like this is like Star Trek is

369
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,880
Speaker 2: on the air right closed to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's it's it's pretty insane. So despite this, like everyone

371
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Speaker 2: is horrified by this kind of butt Aspenall, he's like, well,

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Speaker 2: this tiger had a bad reaction to this kid. Yeah, yeah,

373
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Speaker 2: it's the tiger. I'm going to keep having my tiger

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Speaker 2: Tara sleep in bed with me and my wife.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's the good tiger.

376
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Speaker 2: And you know, most of his friends are generally loath

377
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Speaker 2: to question his judgment because they're all in debt to him, right,

378
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,480
Speaker 2: they're all gambling at the Claremont.

379
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Speaker 3: And he has a bunch of violent animals.

380
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he has dangerous animals. Now kind of by this point,

381
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 2: the Claremont set has filled out. Aspinall has made two

382
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Speaker 2: additional friends to kind of complete his his inner circle,

383
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Speaker 2: and one of these guys is the seventh Earl of Lucan,

384
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Speaker 2: nicknamed Lucky Lucan after a particularly great gambling hall earlier

385
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: in his life. Now, Lucan, his grandfather is the dude

386
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Speaker 2: who did the charge of the Light Brigade. Right, that

387
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: is the family that this guy comes from. And as

388
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,239
Speaker 2: you might guess from the whole Charge of the Light

389
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 2: Brigade thing, his family is kind of a reputation for eccentricity. Now,

390
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 2: this is not always bad. Lucan's father, who's the sixth

391
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,720
Speaker 2: Earl of Lucan, becomes like a massively influential Labor Party

392
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Speaker 2: leader in the House of Lords and is like a

393
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Speaker 2: very famous progressive in this period. But his son, the

394
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 2: seventh Earl of Lucan, does not get along with his dad.

395
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 2: He actually hates his father. And part of what this

396
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: means is that he goes far right right. Now, this

397
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 2: makes him fit in very well because all of the

398
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 2: old money said at the Claremont are right wing guys.

399
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Speaker 2: But he isn't just like conservative. He develops a specific

400
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 2: fascination with the Nazis, and in fact, after bad night's gambling,

401
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 2: he would calm himself down by reading mind komp like

402
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: that's his like, that's his safe place. That's his putting

403
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 2: on like Frasier at night to go to sleep.

404
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 3: His reason I play like Slay the Spy or MLB

405
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,880
Speaker 3: to the show. Yeah, like just like something to chill

406
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 3: out with, except he chose that book.

407
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit of Hitler to calm yourself down

408
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 2: after a hard day.

409
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 3: That's his Housewives.

410
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 2: That that's his Desperate Housewives.

411
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 3: It's nothing first sight for him is Hitler.

412
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's his chill out.

413
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 1: That's exactly what it is.

414
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 2: Married, yeah, wild. So the other friend who joins their

415
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: circle is this fellow James Goldsmith. Now he's the son

416
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 2: of a luxury hotel magnate. He's not he's not royalty right.

417
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 2: In fact, he's a He's a Jewish guy. His family

418
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 2: has to flee Germany ahead of the Nazis, right, he's

419
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 2: going to be one of these new money people who

420
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 2: kind of remakes the ruling class. You know. He's one

421
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: of these sort of like guys who sort of he

422
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 2: comes in during this period and becomes one of the

423
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: most powerful people in the entire country. He's this he's

424
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 2: an Etonian, but he drops out for graduating because he's

425
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 2: already is like a kid, a successful entrepreneur, and he

426
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,160
Speaker 2: basically tells everyone, I'm too rich for this high society

427
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: cloud game. Bullshit, Right, I've made my money. I don't

428
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: need your approval now. Now you have to get my

429
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 2: approval because you're all going broke gambling and I have

430
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: the fucking cash, right, And he's got He's a fascinating dude.

431
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: Actually get Goldsmith. In his older adult life, Goldsmith is

432
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 2: like this corporate raider dude. He's stripping assets and like

433
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 2: destroy He's one of the men who will destroy industry

434
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 2: in Britain, right because he's stripping all the and like

435
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 2: strips assets from all these companies. He's this big offshoring

436
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 2: guy he's going to like play a major role in

437
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 2: killing along with his other dude, a friend of his,

438
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: Slater killing like industry in the UK. But earlier in

439
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: his life, he has this like wildly romantic and sympathetic backstory.

440
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,959
Speaker 2: So as a young man, he falls in love with

441
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 2: this woman, Maria Borbon, and Maria is her father. Is

442
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: this indigenous Bolivian man, right who like as he's kind,

443
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: he's a minor basically, and he kind of lucks into

444
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: buying this incredibly rich tin Vein, which makes him an

445
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,960
Speaker 2: incredibly wealthy man. And he then moves to the to

446
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 2: Europe because he knows that, like the political situation Bolivia

447
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: is unstable, and he buys himself a Spanish noble title. Right,

448
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: so he is a he comes from a very common

449
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: you know, he's literally an indigenous man from South America,

450
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 2: but he makes himself into a European noble and he

451
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 2: does not want his daughter Maria to marry this Jewish man, right,

452
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: and in fact tells him when James tries to come

453
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: to him for his approval to get married, He's like,

454
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 2: we are not in the habit of marrying Jews. Now

455
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: James is a piece of shit too, and his response is, well,

456
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: I'm not in the habit of marrying red Indians. So oh,

457
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, two racists negotiating a marriage. Racist Uno, Yeah,

458
00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 2: racist Uno. Now Maria's dad is insanely rich. When they

459
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: try to get married anyway, he has his daughter kidnapped

460
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 2: and put under house arrest. She yeah, it's one of these,

461
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: and she like, there's this time where he keeps searching,

462
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 2: He's traveling around the world looking for her, Like she's

463
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: being kind of locked away, she gets free and they

464
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: run to Scotland together, right, and they they start they

465
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: hide out in Scotland because the way the laws are

466
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 2: at the time, if you've been in Scotland for two weeks,

467
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: you can get married there. Don't ask me why that's

468
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,479
Speaker 2: the rule, but that's the rule. So they're like and like.

469
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 2: At the same time, her dad, who like has mercenaries,

470
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 2: travels to Edinburgh and so he's got like his mercenaries

471
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: in private searching for them for two weeks as they're

472
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: like hiding in the underground so that they can get married.

473
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: And it's one of those things. James being a pretty

474
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: savvy guy, he starts sending letters to a journalist right

475
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: telling them what they're doing, telling him about the fact

476
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: that they're and this journalist starts publishing articles while they're

477
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: hiding and while like their dad is putting out bounties

478
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: for them, and it becomes like the biggest story in

479
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 2: the country, right, everyone it's this incredibly romantic tale. This

480
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: couple has eloped and they're being chased by this evil

481
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: plutocrat and like they're hiding out in the Edinburgh underground.

482
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 2: Like everyone is obsessed with this story. Couldn't be much

483
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 2: more romantic, right, it is a pretty cool so you

484
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: could make a movie out of this. Yeah, it's thought

485
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: you really very cool. I would watch a movie about that.

486
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: It is a dope story. So and they succeed, right,

487
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: They're able to kind of wait out long enough that

488
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: they elope they have this like secret wedding and then

489
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 2: you know there's nothing that Maria's dad can do about it,

490
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: so they're able to move back to London where they are.

491
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: They're not just popular with the rich because they're like

492
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: the like everyone loves them, right, this is such a celebrities. Yeah,

493
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: this is Yeah, it's such a romantic story. And then

494
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: almost as soon as they get back, you know, she

495
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: gets pregnant and dies horribly in childbirth. So it is

496
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: this guy. Yeah, it's this really tragic, like hi dramas story.

497
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: It is like the most sympathetic backstory a dude would have.

498
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: And the rest of James's life is going to be

499
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 2: killing all of this sympathy by becoming like the evilest

500
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: corporate overlord of his day. Right, yeah, it's it's something else, ok. Fine, Yeah,

501
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 2: and some people will argue because he like his marriages

502
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: are purely transactional. After this point, you know he's got

503
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: this these mistresses, but he never like loves again like

504
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: this seems to have. Basically, some people will argue this

505
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: kind of kills his ability to care about people. I

506
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: don't know if that's the case. Maybe he always would

507
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: have turned out to be a piece of shit, but I.

508
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 3: Think that it's hard to tell what's inside of man's

509
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: especially when he's British. Yeah, but it's definitely didn't help.

510
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't help, and he's gonna again. He destroys kind,

511
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 2: He helps to destroy the cot like industry in the UK.

512
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: He makes a lot of his money in tobacco. He's

513
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: a big tobacco guy. He makes a lot of his

514
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: money in Indonesian nickel miinds, which are not nice places.

515
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 2: He's buying and selling forests around the world, including in

516
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: the US for timber, and he kind of he's one

517
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: of the dudes who will pioneer the modern concept of

518
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 2: setting up shell companies and shadow appet so that he

519
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: can basically secretly buy up controlling interests in companies without

520
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: people realizing until it's too late that he's taken them over.

521
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: Like he helps to kind of pioneer. How you do

522
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: that in the modern era? That is that is this

523
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 2: other buddy of Johnson.

524
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: Is so good at developing people at this Yeah, it is.

525
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: A very British story, right, And Lucan and Goldsmith are

526
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: going to form the nexus of a far right poll

527
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: in aspenall social world and I say that everyone's pretty

528
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: right wing. These are all rich people from like families

529
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: that have always been rich. But England that at that

530
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 2: time was pretty right wing anyway, England is very right

531
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: wing at this time and Goldsmith, but Goldsmith and Luken

532
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 2: are like fascists, right. And in fact, in nineteen ninety four,

533
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: like one of Goldsmith's first things, he's like the first

534
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: Brexitter before the EU is even a thing. He's like

535
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 2: fighting like hell to stop the creation of the EU

536
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: and to stop England from being a part of it.

537
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: That doesn't work, and he gets He's as kind of

538
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: a response to failing to stop the EU, he writes

539
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: this book in nineteen ninety four called The Trap, And

540
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: basically the argument is in the Trap is that like

541
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: US style attitudes of free trade which bring with them

542
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: mass migration, right, which open borders that people can travel

543
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: between borders is a trap because it will lead to

544
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 2: non white people taking over, right, that's the Yeah, that's good.

545
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: This is like a great replacement guy.

546
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, this is like the BC version of

547
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: the great replacement theory, right, Like it's a little bit

548
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: underdeveloped when he starts it, but you can see the

549
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: bones of it in the book that he writes. Yeah, yeah,

550
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: so that's cool. Anyway, you know who doesn't support the

551
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: great replacement as a narrative, the podcast or the sponsors

552
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: of our podcast. Oh okay, yeah, they don't do that,

553
00:28:51,320 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: so buy them. Uh we are back. We're having a

554
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: good time over here. So James Goldsmith is a mercantilist, right,

555
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: he feels basically that wealthy and this is kind of

556
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: the attitude of the Claremont set. Wealthy business owners should

557
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: hold all political power and the government should primarily be

558
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: used to stop poor people from entering Europe through force. Right.

559
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: That is the belief that this guy has not an

560
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: uncommon one today. You see the descendants of Jimmy Goldsmith

561
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: all over the place. But this is weird because he's

562
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 2: he and aspinall are the two independently wealthy, like actually wealthy,

563
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: not just inherited money and squandered it members of the

564
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: Claremont set. So he is the only guy in this

565
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: social circle who's willing to tell John, hey, your zoo

566
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: experiments are insane, like like you're you're a lunatic. And

567
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: in fact, on the day is your tiger of ripped

568
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: someone's face? Yeah, he actually bad. He tries to Warren

569
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: Annabel the day her son gets maimed. He's like, Oh,

570
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 2: I would never get in the cages with these animals.

571
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: They're wild animals. If they get frightened, you never know

572
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: what they're going to do, right, Like, you can't you

573
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: can't trust them with your safety, just doing the jock test,

574
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: ignoring it. No, no, throw the kid in there right

575
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: ooh yeah, tells fucking prick it's wild. So at the

576
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: end of the sixties, Jimmy opens his school to again

577
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: the public, provided that they can pay, and he has

578
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: expanded by this point to a host a wide variety

579
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: of animals. He starts to get less interested in the

580
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: Claremont at this point. Right gambling has kind of gotten

581
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: boring and nothing compares throwing down money, which he has

582
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: plenty of on a game, is not nearly as exciting

583
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: as like cuddling with a tiger. Right, So, at the

584
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: start of the seventies he sells the Claremont outright. I

585
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: think he sells it to Hugh Heffner. May be wrong

586
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: about that, but he sells it so he can focus

587
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: on his new passion. Now, Aspenall, he's been dying every day,

588
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: nearly nearly dying every day to animals, to wild animals.

589
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: May now in sort of the period as he's gotten

590
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: experienced with this zoo and kind of gotten bored of gambling.

591
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: Aspenall has also begun to develop a peculiar set of

592
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: theories about the world, basically not just yes. Some of

593
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: them are based on Goldsmith and his buddy Luke and

594
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: their outright Nazism has an impact on Aspenall, but Aspinall

595
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: is also heavily influenced by his close contact with wild animals.

596
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: His idea, the idea that he comes to believe, is this,

597
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: in the ancient past, human beings and animals had been equal,

598
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 2: but then mankind had betrayed them, creating a world in

599
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: which animals were little more than beasts of burden. Aspinall

600
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: saw himself as the appointed defender of the animal world

601
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: from man, and in his eyes, the oppression of animals

602
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 2: was not caused by rich men like him who keep

603
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: them in zeus, or who like buy and sell forests,

604
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 2: like his buddy James Goldsmith. But it's caused by poor people,

605
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: mostly non white people right right where, Yeah, who are

606
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: cluttering up the world with their filth, and.

607
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: That somehow controls the animals. Right.

608
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: I'm gonna quote from an article in the Telegraph that's

609
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: kind of writing about him. He castigated the human race

610
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: as a species of vermin and positively welcomed natural disasters

611
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: as a means of reducing the plague of Homo sapiens.

612
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: He would gladly end his own life, he declared, if

613
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: he could take another two hundred and fifty million with him,

614
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: there was something to be said. He felt for Hitler's

615
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: ideas about eugenics. Broadly speaking, he said the high income

616
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 2: groups tend to have a better genetic inheritance. And like

617
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: he meets, he becomes buddies with Richard Nixon at one point. Obviously,

618
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: of course, of course he and Nixon are friends, and

619
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 2: you know, they're hanging out one day and the Claremont

620
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: Nixon's like, you know, we have some of their nuclear weapons.

621
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: We've got to kill two million people if they hit

622
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: the right place. And fucking Aspinall's response is like, well,

623
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: that's not nearly enough. We're gonna have to We're gonna

624
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: have to up those numbers if we're gonna get rid

625
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: of enough.

626
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 3: Beatle's again, let's get the work. Americans have gotten cocky.

627
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: Eurotrocities are nothing compared to the British Empire.

628
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is good.

629
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 3: The conversation that must have been fixed. Ditch. One of

630
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 3: the tigers nearly killed someone when I sleep with the gorilla.

631
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: Now you doesn't like Americans?

632
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do not think a gorilla would have a

633
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: good reaction to dignate Johnson. Sorry, yeah, this gorilla actually

634
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: loved escalation in Vietnam, couldn't get enough of it. So

635
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: it was not only the poor that that Aspinall's animal

636
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: friends taught him to reject pearson Rights quote. Having identified

637
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: fed so closely with his gorillas, he started to imitate

638
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: their habits and showed a marked preference for the rules

639
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: governing the world of animals to that of human beings.

640
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: From watching how the dominant old silverback gorilla ruled the

641
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: females in his entourage. He concluded that the idea of

642
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: women's rights and women's liberation was not only ridiculous, but

643
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: also contrary to nature. He'd also decided that an authoritarian,

644
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: paternalistic setup was the natural model for a human family.

645
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: He's a he's a literal gorilla mindset, dude.

646
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: He is quite literally a gorilla mindset.

647
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 2: That's so funny. The gorillas have taught me how human

648
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 2: relationships outill work.

649
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: Mike is going to listen to this and be like, oh, well, to.

650
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 2: Be clear, I'm not saying he's right about how gorilla

651
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know much about gorillas.

652
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: This guy is a disgraceful piece of share and I

653
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: wope burns in hell. But also he does kind of

654
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 3: live his dream. It's not like he's saying I have

655
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: the gorilla mindset. Yeah, and doesn't. He owns these gorillas

656
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: and indeed interacts with them, cuddles. Is what I think

657
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 3: he believes is a peer.

658
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have to you have to give him credit.

659
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: He's not a dilettante, right, he is committed to living

660
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: like an animal, So I'll give him that. I'm not

661
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: saying that's a good thing. I'm just don't got to

662
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: hand it to him. But you don't get to hand

663
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: it to him, he'd be he's not a casual. Yeah,

664
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: there are if you read interviews with him. I have

665
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: read two separate interviews with him that he gives at

666
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 2: his zoo with a journalist, two separate interviews where he

667
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: is mauled by an elephant while giving the interview. That

668
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: happens twice. Yeah, it's something else. So to continue that quote.

669
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 2: From studying how the animal kingdom operated in the wild,

670
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: he reached some even more alarming propositions. The first of

671
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: these was that just as the survival of the fittest

672
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 2: seems to work in nature, we should willingly accept the

673
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: position of the powerful and successful as natural leaders of

674
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: modern day society. He also believed as firmly in selective

675
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: breeding for humans as he did for animals, and proclaimed

676
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: that since animals had as much right to exploit the

677
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 2: planet as a human beings, the time had come to

678
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: call something like a billion humans from what he called

679
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: the urban biomass if the world as we know it

680
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: was going to survive. So that's great, that's great, that's good. Yeah, Now,

681
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: his evolving gorilla.

682
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 3: Min Elon Musk. Dealing with any of these people, they

683
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 3: would kill him. Yes, actually yeah the gorilla. The gorilla

684
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: looks pretty epic to me.

685
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would try to cuddle with a lion and

686
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: get his head crushed. She immediately die, which might have

687
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: been the best thing. Honestly, this could save us all

688
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: a lot of problems. Yeah, so his evolving gorilla mindset,

689
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 2: this is why he like leaves his like. So, he

690
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: and his first wife split up. She cheats on him,

691
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 2: and he decides to keep her. He like locks her

692
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 2: away from their kids, right like, she has no contact

693
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 2: with the children. So he marries this next woman, who

694
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: is like a wonderful partner. She loves his animal. She's

695
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 2: like in every way, a perfect match. But she delivers

696
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 2: a daughter with a heart defect who dies after birth.

697
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: So John dumps her because like, well, humans should only

698
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: mate to breed, because that's what gorillas do and obviously

699
00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 2: we can't breed, so goodbye. Yeah, okay gross his third wife,

700
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: who he marries because she has a famous ancestor and

701
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: he wants that those jeens and his children like Merlin, No, no, no,

702
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: I wish it's a us shit, I've forgotten I had

703
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: it written down somewhere here. But yeah, she has a

704
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: famous ancestor that he admires. And when they have their

705
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 2: first kid, John waits until it's six months old, and

706
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: then he takes it into his gorilla enclosure and hands

707
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: it to the dominant mother father pair in the gerrillarium. Right. Uh,

708
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna I'm going to quote from Pearson here.

709
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: The gorilla appeared inside its nappy to see what sex

710
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: it was, with the baby tucked under her arm, swung

711
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: up into the trees, and showed him to the other

712
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: females in the community. When all the female gorillas had

713
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: thoroughly examined the baby, Bassa, his gorilla mother brought him

714
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: down to earth and returned him safely to his human parents.

715
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,959
Speaker 3: That was not how I thought that one was gone.

716
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,919
Speaker 2: No, it works out fine, So that's great.

717
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: That's kind of strange.

718
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a wild experience, baby.

719
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a wild experience to participate in, even as

720
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 3: an observer.

721
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's wild.

722
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 3: We would just send the baby off to the gorillas.

723
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: Sally marries him after this anyway, She's like, yeah, fine,

724
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: why not the baby?

725
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 3: It was fine, nothing to complain about.

726
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: Jesus, it works out fine. So the early nineteen seventies

727
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 2: are a bad time for the Aspinalls, and they're rich friends,

728
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 2: but for reasons divorced from getting mauled by wild animals.

729
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: The economy tanks at this point, right Aspinall, not just

730
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: in the UK, but like Aspinall has, he's gotten over

731
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: gambling on gambling and is gambling on the US stock

732
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 2: market and he loses his fucking shirt when the US

733
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 2: stock market takes a tumble in the early A new.

734
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 3: Kind of exploit or exploited him.

735
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly life.

736
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, and really it is just human beings will create

737
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 3: new systems to exploit other human beings. He created one

738
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 3: and then another, and then someone created one to exploit him.

739
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: It's kind of beautiful, it is. It is, it's it's

740
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 2: it's batical way, yeah.

741
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 3: Quote George Lucas.

742
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's able to. He doesn't lose everything just because

743
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 2: his friend Goldsmith, right, is still rich and Goldsmith basically

744
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 2: floats him so he can keep paying for his exotic animals.

745
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 2: During this period, the other members of the Claremont Set

746
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: do not fare as well. The new membership of the

747
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: club won't give them IOUs right so these guys are

748
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: all still horribly addicted to gambling because they never started

749
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: businesses or zoos they have Like Lord Lucan has nothing

750
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: in his life but gambling, and he's bad at it,

751
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: so he can't afford to gamble without aspinall running the Claremont.

752
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: Now luc Is this starts to kind of drive him crazy.

753
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: The fact that he is actually poor now, Like he

754
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: still has his fancy manor house, he's still a lord,

755
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: but he has no money. That drives him crazy. And

756
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 2: then in nineteen seventy four a labor government takes over

757
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: in the UK, and that drives these guys, these Claremont members,

758
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 2: into a sense of mania because to them, aspenall the way,

759
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: Aspenall views this is this labor government. These are communists.

760
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: Communists have taken over and they are in the process

761
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: of uprooting the natural order of society. This is a

762
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: conspiracy against the rightful ruling class based on my gorilla studies.

763
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the ruling class that got there through gambling

764
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: on an insane game.

765
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, it's.

766
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 3: Something else so that they're not they're not good rich

767
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 3: people like us where we got money through gambling. That

768
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 3: bad rich people who got it through some other method

769
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: that I don't really understand.

770
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: They did something shady for it. Now no one's no

771
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: one's mind has degraded more by this point than the

772
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: formerly lucky Lord Lucan. His luck had turned sour years ago,

773
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: and again he is broke. Now he's increasingly obsessed with fascism.

774
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: And this is all related to the fact that his

775
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: marriage has collapsed, right, and it's become clear like his

776
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 2: wife is going to take the kids, right, So he

777
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: just is losing his mind increasing And anytime he'll meet

778
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: with his Claremont buddies with Aspinall, because they're all still

779
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: hanging out, Aspinall will cite these theories based on gorillas

780
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: of how inferior women are. So Lucan takes from that

781
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: he tries to force his wife into a mental institution

782
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: so he can take the kids. He does this several times.

783
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: This would have worked. I think Aspinall. Probably Aspinall had

784
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: wanted to like force a wife into a mental institution,

785
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: he had the juice to do it. Luken isn't good

786
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: at anything, so he can't he can't even work this

787
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 2: kind of evil scheme, right, He's just he's not even able,

788
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: even with his like social position, to make this happen thankfully. Right,

789
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: that's good.

790
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: And also his rationale is based on gorillas.

791
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's based on his friend's gorillas. Yeah.

792
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 3: So who told you the gorilla for our right?

793
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 2: Yeah?

794
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: Okay?

795
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Lord Lucan his mind is a mix of

796
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: his buddies gorilla theories, and he buys this nineteen thirties

797
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: translation of mindkomp which which he reads feverishly and is.

798
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 3: Also his off the World War two as well well

799
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: after World War Two. It's the Losing Guy's Handbook to racism.

800
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he does. He has one other idol. Unfortunately,

801
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: that idol is Mustapha Kamal of Turkey, who is you know,

802
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 2: a dictator and one of the Armenian genocide guys. Yeah,

803
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 2: and the book is called Gray Wolf, right, which is

804
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: today the name of a fascist organization in Turkey.

805
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: So that's good, not good. Yeah.

806
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 2: So these are his two buds, right, Hitler.

807
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 3: And Hitler and gorilla and dictator.

808
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's his his like his like in his head,

809
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: the fucking like. Yeah. His idols are.

810
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: Hysteric, including a gorilla.

811
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: Uh so yeah, and you know this says something about

812
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: his wife too. She claims in interviews later she didn't

813
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: realize that he'd taken a turn for the extreme right.

814
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: Although this is the exact quote from her, I'm not

815
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: sure I believe her here quote. He did have very

816
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: right wing views, some might describe them as fascist. I

817
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: didn't know he was indulging in extremist reading matter in

818
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two, although I knew he listened to recordings

819
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: of Hitler's speeches at Nuremberg rallies.

820
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: Well, was that not a warning science?

821
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah?

822
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: Where'd you think he golt the ideas? Did he just

823
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 3: like walking down the street it's someone talking about it?

824
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: Or was it his weird gorilla friend.

825
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? I also just like I didn't know the gorilla man. Again,

826
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know he was reading fascist books. I just

827
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: knew he listened to Nuremberg a lot. Wild So, this

828
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: increasingly conspiratory obsession with race theory, communism and communism and

829
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: the only possible solution to a labor government infected the

830
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: whole Claremont set. And I'm going to quote from a

831
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: really interesting, interesting two thousand and nine article in the Guardian.

832
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 2: Here there is no suggestion that Luken was in any

833
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 2: way anti Semitic or supported the final solution, but he

834
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: and his associates, who included casino owner and party host

835
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: John Aspinall and the tycoon sur James Goldsmith, were increasingly

836
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: convinced Britain had fallen victim to a socialist conspiracy. Daily

837
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: Express journalist Charles Benson, one of Luken's friends, said he

838
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 2: was very right wing and never watered it down in

839
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: front of liberals. He would talk about hanging and flogging

840
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 2: and use the inWORD in order to get a reaction.

841
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: One biographer, Patrick Marnham said, seen from the Claremont Club,

842
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: the country was starting to resemble the less stable years

843
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 2: of the Weimar Republic. Sir James Goldsmith began to develop

844
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: his theory of the communist infiltration of the Western media.

845
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: Over the smoked salmon and lamb cutlets. The talk turned

846
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 2: to the pros and cons of a British military coup

847
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: and that is what these guys are going to come

848
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: to support now. So when he was just.

849
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 3: The guy who claimed he wasn't right wing, who walked

850
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: around saying the N word to get a reaction around

851
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: a bunch of people who are kind of embarrassed to

852
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 3: be around him, just like podcaster.

853
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a podcaster. Yeah, he would have been a

854
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: great boy.

855
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: Like he would have been a he would have been

856
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 3: on was it a Lex Friedman's podcast?

857
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, huge Friedman?

858
00:44:58,239 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 3: So what is that do you think?

859
00:44:59,480 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 2: Oh?

860
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 3: The girl guy? Huh? Actually, no, a guy you seriously,

861
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 3: A guy who's just like, Yeah, I learned everything I

862
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 3: learned about woman from watching Mike Gorillas. That guy would

863
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 3: be an insanely popular YouTube.

864
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he would be huge. Now. It's also it's

865
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: worth noting one of their good friends here when I

866
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: talk about them supporting a military cupe. A member of

867
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 2: the Claremont set who's tight with all these guys is

868
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: this dude Sterling who creates the SAS. And Sterling is

869
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: going to make a private army in the UK with

870
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: the goal of like using them as this sort of

871
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: right wing counter availing force. It doesn't work out for

872
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: a variety of reasons, but like, these are their social set,

873
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: and by late nineteen seventy four things have gotten to

874
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: a pretty toxic level. And we're going to talk about

875
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 2: what Lucan does next in this mind state, but first

876
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: there's some ads. We're back so late nineteen seventy four,

877
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 2: The Lucky Lord Lucan has grown obsessed with his need

878
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: to rescue his children destroy his wife, all of which

879
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: fits in with his Nazi gorilla beliefs about power and masculinity.

880
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: So he starts telling Aspital. He tells his friends he's

881
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 2: open about, Like They're like hanging out playing cards, and

882
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: he's like, gonna kill my wife. Decided it gonna murder her.

883
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: And they're all like, yeah, sounds like a good plan. Man, Like, Yeah,

884
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: that sounds like a great idea.

885
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

886
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: There is some debate as to like whether they thought

887
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: he was bullshitting or not. And to be fair, I

888
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: do think it's not uncommon for these guys to joke

889
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: about murdering their wives. Yeah, that's the kind of culture

890
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: it is, right, Like, but.

891
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 3: Also the culture is one where a guy owns multiple

892
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 3: gorillas and leads them anything could be happening. I believe it.

893
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just saying I think I'm bringing this up

894
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: not to like defend them, but more to say a

895
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 2: lot of them talk about murdering women. He's not the

896
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 2: only one, right, and there is evidence.

897
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: Doesn't surprise me. There are a bunch of fucking ethno

898
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 3: fascist freaks like that.

899
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 2: We'll never know precisely, but Hearson's book makes a very

900
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: strong case that like, not only is he joking about this,

901
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: but they provide him with resources to carry out a murder. Right,

902
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: and again, some of this is up. Obviously, these guys

903
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: are not stupid enough to be completely open about what

904
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 2: they're doing. But one of his friends loans him a

905
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: car that he's going to like use as like his

906
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: getaway vehicle to dump his wife's body after he murders her.

907
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: One of them like he's broke, and he figures he

908
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: needs ten thousand pounds sterling to bribe a guy with

909
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: a boat to dispose of the corpse. Right, there's a

910
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: couple of bribes and he'd be made right and Goldsmith, interestingly,

911
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 2: James Goldsmith, being the smartest of them, doesn't want to

912
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 2: get involved in this. He doesn't want to be directly

913
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 2: tied to this murder. So he's like, I will give

914
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: you ten thousand pounds to commit this murder, which means

915
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: that he doesn't have to give the money to him

916
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: because as a noble in the aristocracy, you can't take

917
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: a gift, right, Luken can't be given ten thousand dollars.

918
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 2: He has to be loaned it, so his their friends

919
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: loan him the money. Right. This is actually Goldsmith's clever

920
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 2: way to not get tied to this is by offering

921
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: it as a gift, because then Lucan won't take it.

922
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, wild culture, but a tax dodge, what

923
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 2: the yeah? So Luken gets a loan from other friends

924
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,680
Speaker 2: of his and he gets this car. There's some other

925
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: tools he probably gets, and the plan he cooks up

926
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: is like, I Am going to kill my wife, like

927
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: bash her head in, throw her in like a sack,

928
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: drive her to this boat, and then the boat will

929
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: like weigh down the sack and toss her in the

930
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: fucking ocean, right Like, that's that's the idea. Pearson describes

931
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 2: this not as just his plot, but as a conspiracy

932
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 2: involving other members of the Claremont Club. There's this anonymous

933
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: financier who he calls mister X. I think because he's

934
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: scared to bring this guy's name in that works as

935
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: both a high end lege breaker for gamblers and is

936
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: like involved an organized crime. This may have been ad

937
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 2: non Koshogi. I think it's possible who is like this

938
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: arms dealer, But it's that's not the only guy. It

939
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 2: could have been a lot of other guys, right, There

940
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: are a lot of guys involved in organized crime. Because

941
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 2: Aspinall's a gambling maybn, right, obviously he knows dudes who

942
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: are dangerous.

943
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 3: For some randomly violent fellows.

944
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the basic idea is that Luken's going to

945
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: murder his wife. She's just going to disappear. No one's

946
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: going to know there was a murder because the body.

947
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 3: Will go the people he's discussed it with while gompling.

948
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, other than his gambling buddies. And then he'll

949
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: live happily ever after with his children. Right, this is

950
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: his plan to save type plan. Yeah. Perfect. Now, the

951
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: only hole in this perfect plan is that Lord Lucan

952
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: is a useless, rich kid who has never developed a

953
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: skill in his life other than losing all of his

954
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 2: money gambling.

955
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 3: So he.

956
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: Heads into his London home with this metal pipe wrapped

957
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: in surgical tape, and he swings it at the first small,

958
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: dark haired woman to come down the stairs. Unfortunately, well

959
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: I'm not going to say unfortunately. This is all.

960
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: Unfortunate, horrifying thing to do, just like even not. But

961
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 3: then the slap, the weird like slap showed nature of him.

962
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 1: He kills he killed some other lady, didn't he.

963
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: He kills his maid, who people would say, yeah, yeah,

964
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 2: it's one of those like she kind of had a

965
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: casual resemblance to his wife. Right, so he doesn't even look.

966
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: He swings, he shatters her skull and he kills her instantly, right,

967
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 2: this very brutal, horrible, horrible thing. God. Now the lady

968
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: Lucan is right behind her maid, and she comes down

969
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: the stairs next, and this is from Pearson's book. When

970
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: he heard Veronica, that's the Lady Lucan coming down the

971
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: stairs from the sitting room to find out what was

972
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: going on. He started attacking her as well, hitting her

973
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: around the head as he had Sandra Rivet. Somehow she

974
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: managed to slide down between his legs and grab his balls.

975
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: The agonizing pain made him stop, and suddenly he seemed

976
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 2: to come to his senses and realize too late what

977
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: he was doing. This was not a gamble or a

978
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: lethal fantasy. He had just battered to death his children's

979
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 2: nanny and was now doing his best to do the

980
00:50:59,160 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: same to their mother.

981
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: That is so cool.

982
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 4: It is pretty dope. And murr you got to give

983
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 4: that woman is hardcore. Yeah, yeah, that is thinking on

984
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 4: your face. This bitch good for you? Good for you?

985
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,959
Speaker 3: Honestly, also complete head on a swivel AWESO.

986
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

987
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: She grabbed them so tightly that he was like, WHOA,

988
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,280
Speaker 1: maybe I shouldn't murder plants.

989
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. This was the point at which Lucan did something

990
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: that seems so incredible in the middle of a bloody

991
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 2: murder that it actually becomes credible. He apologized to his

992
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: intended victim. He did more. He sat in the back

993
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 2: of down and found himself telling her that they must

994
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: talk to try to work things out. Then, noticing blood

995
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 2: was pouring down her face, he went to the bathroom

996
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 2: to fetch a towel to help clean her up. This

997
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 2: gave her the chance she needed to make a quick escape.

998
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 2: Stumbling down the stairs, she got out onto the street

999
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: and ran to the local pub, the Plumber's Arms, where

1000
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: she burst into the saloon bar screaming, help me, help me.

1001
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 2: Somebody's just murdered my nanny. Now Lucan escapes after.

1002
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: Somebody peers, you're defending that man.

1003
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: I'll get She has suffered a head injury. At this point,

1004
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: I don't know what was clear to her, like maybe

1005
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: it may have been a thing where like because she

1006
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 2: gets hit in the head, she's not immediately aware. She

1007
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: has to put it together. I'm gonna I'll give a

1008
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: lot of grace to someone who's just been hitting the

1009
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: head with the pipe and had to fight their way free, right,

1010
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: who knows what's going on.

1011
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 3: Well, so it's very funny that he was like, yo,

1012
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: one minute, let me get twet, me get a towel.

1013
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 3: It's this she kind of wait right here, I will

1014
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 3: not kill you.

1015
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: She grabs his balls and it resets him back to

1016
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 2: like politeness.

1017
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: The little getting like a pin reset device.

1018
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: It's wild. Yeah, Luken goes missing. He is still missing

1019
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 2: to this day. Right, he's been declared dead at this point. Obviously,

1020
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 2: nobody totally knows what happens to him, Right, it is

1021
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 2: generally agreed that he committed suicide. The kind of most

1022
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 2: common story is he takes a boat out to see

1023
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: and he drowns himself, because that's like the most romantic,

1024
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,439
Speaker 2: aristocratic way of killing yourself, right, is to like throw

1025
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: yourself into the ocean. But we don't know that that's

1026
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: what happened. And Lord Aspinall's mother. She gets I think

1027
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: it's his mother or his wife. She's interviewed later and

1028
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: she kind of insinuates that like his friends got rid

1029
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 2: of him, that he was murdered by his friends because

1030
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 2: he might expose them. There's some suggestion that maybe he

1031
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: was fed to Aspinall's tigers. That might not boss.

1032
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 3: I would absolutely believe that, Yeah, I would definitely believe

1033
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 3: that he was just like, yeah, go with the tiger.

1034
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 3: I trained this tiger to protect from wives.

1035
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's it's unclear he could have killed himself.

1036
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 2: Pearson's attitude is that, like this was he was too

1037
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 2: much of like a weirdo narcissist to kill himself. I

1038
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: don't know if I think that's credible, but he does

1039
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 2: know more about Luken than I do. His his suggestion

1040
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 2: is that like Lucan, using these kind of like mister

1041
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 2: X and these other sort of overseas connections, Aspinall has

1042
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 2: Lucan gets spirited away to Switzerland, but because he's the

1043
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: most famous murderer in Europe, he can't. He has to

1044
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 2: be stuck in a house for the rest of his life, right,

1045
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 2: you can't let this guy out ever, And Lucan can't

1046
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 2: handle that. He still wants to get his kids back

1047
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 2: and like return to high society. He kind of convinces

1048
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: himself someone else killed his wife. And so Pearson's theory

1049
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: is that, like, well, once these guys who are hiding

1050
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: him realize that he's a danger to them, he's going

1051
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 2: to expose himself somehow, they murder him, right because they're like, well,

1052
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 2: this guy, we can't we have It's the only thing

1053
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: to do, you know. That's also perfectly possible.

1054
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 3: I My theory is he probably died in some sort

1055
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 3: of stupid way. It's not like it quite like a

1056
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 3: mystic being death.

1057
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: But friends, I hope was the tiger.

1058
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe he's more likely he pissed off one of

1059
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: the multiple rich and violent and crazy gambling people and

1060
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 3: was like, ah my, I'm lucky lucun and then got

1061
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 3: killed by a guy in the street.

1062
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 2: Totally possible.

1063
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 3: He strikes me as the kind of guy who dies

1064
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: in a very boring and funny way. Yeah, like in

1065
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 3: a bar in Switzerland.

1066
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he just gets drunk with the wrong people now, I.

1067
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 3: Mean, but think about it. If he's this rich, racist,

1068
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 3: horrifying bigger who hates woman. The people he's going to

1069
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 3: associate himself with wherever he ends up are going to

1070
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 3: be equally shitty and unreliable. And also, yeah, someone probably

1071
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 3: fucking looked in the paper and went, hey, aren't you

1072
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 3: that famous murderer? Yeah who got like.

1073
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: A gay sacks.

1074
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, fucking idiot. Because also, but also I would also

1075
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,640
Speaker 3: fully believe that they all had him done in.

1076
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally possible.

1077
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 3: Because his Lucan's whole thing. Even I'm thirty seven years old,

1078
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,320
Speaker 3: so obviously the whole Lucan thing happened a lot longer

1079
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 3: before I was born. But it's it's interesting his legend

1080
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 3: is still around even though most people myself included until

1081
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 3: this podcast, did not know anything about how this happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1082
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 3: which is not a great story for him. Yeah, yep, big,

1083
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 3: big no no on most of this stuff. Yep, the

1084
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: gorilla stuff sounds interesting though.

1085
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, the gorilla stuff's fine. So yeah. For his part,

1086
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 2: Lord Aspinall would never condemn his friend for murder. He

1087
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: talks to journals about that. He's like, I get why

1088
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 2: he did it. I think he was I think he

1089
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: was within his rights. You know, he did it for

1090
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: the good of his children. Aspiral's attitude is he was

1091
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: only trying to save his children from the worst fate

1092
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 2: imaginable being raised by a woman.

1093
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: Right wise, we established earlier in the pod women being people.

1094
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 2: Yeah now and the other so Lucan because he or

1095
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:45,399
Speaker 2: Aspinall because he kind of goes broke in seventy four.

1096
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 2: In seventy six, he starts another gambling hall right which

1097
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: he makes another fortune in, and he sets up in

1098
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 2: the hallway these like busts of like famous gamblers from history,

1099
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,320
Speaker 2: and one of them is a bust of his friend,

1100
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 2: the murderer, Lord Lucan, and like the initial inscription on

1101
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: it basically says he did it for his kids something

1102
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 2: else this guy. So after his friend's disappearance, Aspinall continues

1103
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: to devote most of his time to his zoo. He

1104
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 2: makes a couple more fortunes when we're talking millions, tens

1105
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: of millions each time, but then he loses them, often

1106
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: by like pampering his animals because it's just it's expensive

1107
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 2: to run zoos like this, they never make money. He

1108
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 2: does open a second zoo like a few years later,

1109
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: so he has two zoos that he's operating, and these

1110
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 2: become increasingly large and influential. Through the eighties and nineties,

1111
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: he grows obsessed with the idea that his zoo keepers

1112
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 2: like him can only do their job properly if they're

1113
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 2: getting if they're willing to get dangerously close to the animals,

1114
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 2: and this is a bad idea. In nineteen eighty he

1115
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: has two Siberian tigrises and they viciously maul and kill

1116
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 2: two zoo keepers in the same year, forcing him the

1117
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: only thing that's his attitude angry that he has to

1118
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: shoot these tigers to death because these zookeepers got murdered

1119
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: by them, which, to be fair, not the tiger's fault,

1120
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 2: but it is your fault, dude, Like you had them

1121
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 2: cuddling with them.

1122
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 3: I mean you also had tigers. Yeah, quote people in for.

1123
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: I just yeah, that's not the end of it. In

1124
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four, one of his zoo keepers is crushed

1125
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: to death by an Indian bowl elephant. In nineteen ninety four,

1126
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 2: the head zookeeper at Howlitz is massacred by yet another

1127
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 2: Siberian Tigersking guy.

1128
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 3: Went into the nineties with this shit.

1129
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Right afterwards, another keeper, Damian Cockrell,

1130
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 2: is crushed to death by the elephant La Petite in

1131
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: its enclosure. So he is running through these guys very quickly.

1132
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: This is a deadly zoo. I'm going to quote from

1133
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 2: The Guardian again. In nineteen ninety six, Aspinall won a

1134
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 2: High court case to maintain the controversial practice of Keepler's

1135
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 2: keepers mingling with lions, even though in May of that

1136
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: year a boy was awarded one hundred and thirty two

1137
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: thousand pounds because his arm was ripped off by a chimpanzee.

1138
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty nine, this is again at one of

1139
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:10,919
Speaker 2: Aspinall's facilities, and as irresponsible as all that is, he's

1140
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: still in some ways good at what he's doing because

1141
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: his second zoo, like his second zoo opens and yeah,

1142
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 2: both Howletts and his second zoo, port Lymphany, are renowned

1143
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 2: breeding centers. He produces seventy three captive bread gorillas and

1144
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: six black rhinos.

1145
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 3: People die, but the animals fuck.

1146
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: The animals fuck. Yeah, it's it's wild and like by

1147
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 2: the time, like kind of in the eighties, zoo professionals

1148
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: who had sort of who had rightfully been like this

1149
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 2: guy is a maniac started learning like taking his lessons,

1150
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,439
Speaker 2: some of his lessons on raising animals, because he's got

1151
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 2: by this point eighty breeding species and he is hit.

1152
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 2: One of his projects in the Congo is the first

1153
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: to successfully introduce captive bread gorillas back into the wild.

1154
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 2: So it's this mix of like wild incompetent that gets

1155
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,640
Speaker 2: people killed and also like this is the first program

1156
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: to get captive bread gorillas back into the wild. So

1157
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 2: I don't know what lesson you want to take from that.

1158
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 2: It's just a thing that happened. Yeah, yeah, there you go.

1159
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 3: I think the lesson I'm taking from this is we

1160
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:25,479
Speaker 3: need to learn a little bit about gorillas from this guy. Yeah,

1161
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 3: this guy to throw more people in front of gorillas

1162
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 3: just to see what happens.

1163
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: It's kind of a bummer. He doesn't die from like

1164
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: being eaten.

1165
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: Now, I thought that was where this was going. I

1166
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: thought he was going to get killed by like a

1167
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 3: domestic cat.

1168
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: It's it's it could it's literally the opposite of that.

1169
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 2: Because he does die of cancer in late June of

1170
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: two thousand. But his final regret in life is that

1171
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 2: cancer has made him too sick to like cuddle with

1172
01:00:52,760 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 2: his dangerous wild animals anyway. That's yeah, aspers, as his

1173
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: friends called him. Yeah, there you go.

1174
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 3: How are you feeling, I'm feeling great.

1175
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1176
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 3: I love the fact that Britain. I feel like Britain's

1177
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 3: freaks are just very different to America, and.

1178
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 2: This is a unique kind of freak.

1179
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's only something that could be created by

1180
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 3: the horrors of the colonial empire. Not just like the obvious,

1181
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 3: repeated atrocities that to this day are visited upon the

1182
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: world as a result of the British Empire. It's also

1183
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 3: just the insane, repressive, violent nature of Britain in that

1184
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: hundred year period. I don't even think it's truly stopped,

1185
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 3: but we've just tamped down how violent and horrifying we are.

1186
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: Yep.

1187
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: And what's insane is nothing happened to this guy now,

1188
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 3: nakedly corrupt, guy who led to the deaths of several

1189
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 3: people and by proxy one made Yeah, and he's fine.

1190
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 3: He died of cancer and his last thing was like, oh, yeah,

1191
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,439
Speaker 3: I didn't get the cuddle with my animals as much

1192
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 3: as I wanted.

1193
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: I never got maimed one last time by a tiger.

1194
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 3: Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't say I'm not going to

1195
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 3: let God kill me. My gorillas will do it.

1196
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll make my gorilla.

1197
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 3: You're really right there, like I refuse to let go

1198
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 3: like this, this giant silverback gorilla I've been breeding specifically

1199
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 3: to kill me when I get cancer.

1200
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I will say. I'll say this for

1201
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 2: gorillas because I think it's important to push back on

1202
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 2: this myth sometimes.

1203
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, voice, the gorillas are going to fucking light us

1204
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 3: up in the comments.

1205
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: They are not the animals that kill people, right, because

1206
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 2: it's actually like a silver like gorillas, it's kind.

1207
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 3: Of hard to get human beings do.

1208
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a be established to get take your mother

1209
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: in law. Yeah, and she'll depress the gorilla and that's it.

1210
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I guess that's the lesson here. Everyone

1211
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: go get a silver backrilla. It's completely safe.

1212
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 3: It's totally fine. You will be fine. Yeah, by one today.

1213
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have any pluggables for us?

1214
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 3: Said, just to find me at where's your head? Don't

1215
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 3: if you want to read some excellent tech journalism and

1216
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 3: if you want to hire a PR from easypr dot com.

1217
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 2: Yes, most excellent easypr dot com. Check out where's your

1218
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 2: ad at? And uh yeah, that's going to be it

1219
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: for us at Behind the Bastards This week. You can

1220
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: subscribe ad free to our shows at what is.

1221
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: It called Sophie Cooler Zone Media.

1222
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, do that all right, We're done bye.

1223
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1224
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1225
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1226
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.