WEBVTT - Kacey Musgraves on Psychedelics 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:32.556 Pushkin. If you look at the history of country music, 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:37.436 it is a genre based on songs that tell stories, 0:00:38.036 --> 0:00:43.956 and sometimes stories aren't always positive or mainstream. And I 0:00:43.996 --> 0:00:46.876 mean country music is supposed to be for people who 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:52.436 are experiencing heartache, real life struggle, jobs, divorce, heartbreak, you know, death, 0:00:52.636 --> 0:00:56.676 like all this, and so in my mind, the most 0:00:56.676 --> 0:00:59.276 country thing you can do is to like just talk 0:00:59.316 --> 0:01:04.036 about it all that. Singer songwriter Kasey Musgraves, she says 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:06.836 she's always had a strong sense of herself and her sound, 0:01:07.236 --> 0:01:11.236 even when it's cut against country music norms. In recent years, 0:01:11.356 --> 0:01:15.036 casies try to further unlock her full self through psychedelic trips. 0:01:15.756 --> 0:01:18.556 Research and neuroscience shows that people can leave their trips 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:22.676 with profound shifts in perspective and in certain personality traits 0:01:22.716 --> 0:01:26.956 that otherwise rarely change after age thirty. A trait like openness, 0:01:26.996 --> 0:01:30.636 for example, which is highly associated with creativity, tends to 0:01:30.716 --> 0:01:33.996 decrease as we age, but scientific research coming out of 0:01:34.076 --> 0:01:38.396 Johns Hopkins University has shown that psychedelic experiences can actually 0:01:38.436 --> 0:01:43.076 increase people's openness, which includes everything from esthetic appreciation to 0:01:43.156 --> 0:01:48.556 empathy to imagination. Literally, the day after my experience I 0:01:48.596 --> 0:01:51.396 mean it was like the neurons were just firing off 0:01:51.476 --> 0:01:56.756 like insane imagery perspective. I mean, there was a massive 0:01:56.876 --> 0:02:01.436 explosion of creativity ideas the whole concept for my new 0:02:01.476 --> 0:02:04.996 album that I've been writing. One of my inspirations for 0:02:05.076 --> 0:02:07.796 creating this podcast has been to see how people change 0:02:07.796 --> 0:02:10.636 their perspectives of who they are and how they relate 0:02:10.676 --> 0:02:12.596 to the world in the face of a big change. 0:02:13.516 --> 0:02:17.036 Research shows that psychedelics can offer up a turbocharge version 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:19.956 of this kind of change, and as a cognitive scientist, 0:02:20.076 --> 0:02:23.436 I've long been fascinated by the powerful impact psychedelics can 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:27.196 have on the human mind, but my interest lies exclusively 0:02:27.276 --> 0:02:30.756 in the scientific realm. It's worth noting that experimenting with 0:02:30.796 --> 0:02:33.916 these drugs without close medical guidance and a full evaluation 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:38.996 of one's mental health history can carry considerable risk. For 0:02:39.076 --> 0:02:41.636 this episode of A Slight Change of Plans, I wanted 0:02:41.676 --> 0:02:44.796 to talk to Casey Musgraves about the role psychedelics has 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:47.956 played in her creative process, both for her Grammy Award 0:02:47.996 --> 0:02:51.396 winning album Golden Hour and for her upcoming album, which 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:56.156 she says was inspired by a guided psychedelic trip. I'm 0:02:56.156 --> 0:02:58.676 Maya Shanker and this is a slight change of plants, 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:01.396 a show that dives deep into the world of change 0:03:01.516 --> 0:03:04.116 and hopefully gets us to think differently at that change 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:20.036 in our own lives. What's astonishing to me is that 0:03:20.156 --> 0:03:23.156 when researchers run studies, right controlled studies where they're looking 0:03:23.156 --> 0:03:27.516 at the impact of psychedelics on people, so many will say, Wow, 0:03:27.636 --> 0:03:30.596 that was one of the most profound experiences of my 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:33.916 entire life. Yes, and yet they really really have a 0:03:33.956 --> 0:03:37.556 hard time putting into words why that was or even 0:03:37.596 --> 0:03:40.756 describing the experience. It's like the vocabulary that we have 0:03:40.796 --> 0:03:44.236 in our language is insufficient trying to describe. Yeah, do 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:48.836 you feel like having music as another vehicle for communication 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:51.956 allows you to share what it felt like in a 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:55.396 different way or more effectively? I feel like music is 0:03:55.836 --> 0:04:00.676 totally another catalyst to feeling. And what's cool is if 0:04:00.676 --> 0:04:02.556 you really just break it down, I mean, it's sound 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:06.076 waves where like these bags of water basically, and like 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:09.956 when sound vibrates out and sound waves hit you. I 0:04:09.956 --> 0:04:12.516 mean it's cool that it can actually change your mood, 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:16.676 change your mind. When you've tried psychedelics for the first time, 0:04:17.716 --> 0:04:19.956 had you hope that it might inspire music or were 0:04:19.956 --> 0:04:23.276 you just on a sort of personal journey. Well, I've 0:04:23.276 --> 0:04:26.756 done it recreationally, you know, I think it's different when 0:04:26.756 --> 0:04:29.276 you do it with intention. I mean what I was 0:04:29.316 --> 0:04:31.876 looking for most recently when I did a guided trip 0:04:32.316 --> 0:04:34.956 in January. You know, this past year I went through 0:04:35.516 --> 0:04:39.876 a divorce and it was not an easy time everything 0:04:39.876 --> 0:04:43.756 that came along with that. And so this experience, which 0:04:43.876 --> 0:04:46.396 was led by not only two of my friends, but 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:49.276 one of them is a doctor practicing doctor and her husband, 0:04:49.956 --> 0:04:57.036 it was about transforming my trauma, my tragedy into something else, 0:04:57.196 --> 0:05:00.076 you know, and everyone has their own form of trauma. 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:05.356 This was mine. But experiences like this they bring people 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:10.116 to a place where they meet like or inner self healer, 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:13.556 they're inner child. And I mean, you know more about 0:05:13.596 --> 0:05:16.036 this than I do. But I just think it's interesting 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:17.716 that you know, as you live your life, you wear 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:20.956 down these pathways in your brain, almost like little trails 0:05:21.076 --> 0:05:23.076 you know, in the woods or something. Whatever is in 0:05:24.196 --> 0:05:28.356 these psychedelics, this medicine, these plants, they can change these 0:05:28.396 --> 0:05:33.436 pathways and allow you to think differently, access different emotions, 0:05:33.436 --> 0:05:37.356 different memories, and change your life, change your habits. It 0:05:37.556 --> 0:05:41.356 literally the day after my experience I mean it was 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:46.836 like the neurons were just firing off like insane imagery perspective. 0:05:47.436 --> 0:05:52.476 I mean, there was a massive explosion of creativity ideas 0:05:52.516 --> 0:05:55.396 the whole concept for my new album that I've been writing. 0:05:56.636 --> 0:06:00.396 Do you feel like these trips inspire lyrics or do 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:05.516 they inspire melodies or do they inspire both? It's different 0:06:05.516 --> 0:06:07.716 every time, I think, And you can't really go in 0:06:07.796 --> 0:06:12.716 with like a preconceived selfish want. You know, you're going 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:15.756 to get what you get. And like the day after 0:06:17.116 --> 0:06:19.116 my guided Trip, I was laying here on the bed, 0:06:19.156 --> 0:06:22.596 and so what's cool is you you trip to this 0:06:23.476 --> 0:06:25.836 to this playlist that's been curated by these scientists, and 0:06:25.876 --> 0:06:29.236 these these songs, and there are songs from all over 0:06:29.276 --> 0:06:32.156 the world. There's classical music, there's Bach motz Art, you know, 0:06:32.236 --> 0:06:35.956 but then there's like shamonic you know, chants and drumming 0:06:36.156 --> 0:06:40.836 from Peru or Mexico, and there's also like the Beatles 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:46.556 and dr and it's very vast, you know. So you 0:06:46.636 --> 0:06:49.676 listen to this playlist, it guides you through these emotions 0:06:49.716 --> 0:06:54.396 and feelings purposefully, and some of us pretty intense. And 0:06:54.436 --> 0:06:56.956 then you as you kind of are coming out of 0:06:56.956 --> 0:07:01.036 your experience. You are resonating with these like massive feelings 0:07:01.036 --> 0:07:03.676 of gratitude and warmth, and the music that I heard, 0:07:03.716 --> 0:07:05.636 I've never heard music like that in my life. Like 0:07:05.756 --> 0:07:08.396 you could just feel it in your bones, like your cells. 0:07:08.476 --> 0:07:12.116 You're just like it's running through you in a way 0:07:12.156 --> 0:07:18.076 that I've never never experienced before. And what's cool is 0:07:18.156 --> 0:07:21.796 you can go back to that playlist anytime and tap 0:07:21.836 --> 0:07:24.756 into those same feelings and you journal about it, and 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:27.276 you're able to go right back to kind of where 0:07:27.276 --> 0:07:30.556 you were and be able to somewhat verbalize, you know, 0:07:30.676 --> 0:07:33.116 what you experienced. So the next day after the thing, 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:35.716 I was laying on my bed and re listening to 0:07:35.716 --> 0:07:38.436 this playlist and Boch came on and it was this 0:07:38.756 --> 0:07:45.036 sorrowful tragic number and the word tragedy popped in my head. 0:07:45.356 --> 0:07:48.436 It was like boom, tragedy. And then I was like, wait, 0:07:48.796 --> 0:07:52.316 what if the new album is formulated like a modern tragedy. 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:55.156 It's a modern tragedy. I've been through a tragedy and 0:07:55.196 --> 0:07:59.516 so as America, you know. And from there it was 0:07:59.556 --> 0:08:06.756 just like like just off the rills, like boom boom boom, songs, 0:08:07.396 --> 0:08:12.156 album title, concept visuals, like all of it it was crazy. 0:08:12.996 --> 0:08:15.716 I thought about Romeo and Juliet, and I thought about Starcross. 0:08:15.796 --> 0:08:17.796 The word Starcross that popped in my head, and I thought, 0:08:17.836 --> 0:08:20.756 I need to write a song called Starcross. And I 0:08:20.836 --> 0:08:25.236 love the definition of Starcross because it's two people who 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:29.036 love each other so much, but they just cannot make 0:08:29.076 --> 0:08:31.116 it work because even the universe is against them, the 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:34.356 stars are against them, they're ill faded, they were doomed 0:08:34.356 --> 0:08:37.596 from the beginning, but there's love there. And I resonate 0:08:37.636 --> 0:08:39.476 a lot with that, with my personal story and what 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:41.556 I've been through, and so I was like, Okay, Starcross, 0:08:41.596 --> 0:08:44.356 I have to write that. So the next day I 0:08:44.436 --> 0:08:47.076 went in the studio we wrote Starcross. It was our 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:50.156 fortieth song that we had written. What was the hardest 0:08:50.196 --> 0:08:52.676 song that you felt you wrote for this album? Just 0:08:52.716 --> 0:08:58.196 from an emotional perspective, M let me look at little 0:08:58.276 --> 0:09:06.356 song list. There's fifteen. There's five songs in each act. 0:09:05.876 --> 0:09:11.276 In most tragedies, like an artistic sense, there's three acts. 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:15.156 There's the exposition setting up a scene. Act two the 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:18.476 rise of the conflict and the downfall of the characters, 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:22.116 the heartbreak, and then Act three is like the resolution 0:09:22.196 --> 0:09:25.316 the acceptance, you know, the reflection and the hope toward 0:09:25.436 --> 0:09:27.836 the future or whatever. So there's five songs in each act. 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:36.236 So there's a song on here called camera roll, and man, 0:09:36.956 --> 0:09:40.236 it sucks me up bad, like it still does. I, 0:09:41.476 --> 0:09:44.236 you know, after the divorce and everything. You know, you 0:09:44.316 --> 0:09:48.356 have all these photos of your life, your old life, 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:50.876 in your phone, and you don't know what to do 0:09:50.876 --> 0:09:52.716 with them. You're like, do I delete this? This person 0:09:52.796 --> 0:09:55.556 didn't die and these are still my memories, but like, 0:09:55.596 --> 0:09:58.156 I don't want to see him every day. Well, you know, 0:09:58.356 --> 0:10:00.756 you get to scrolling on your phone, like one late 0:10:00.876 --> 0:10:04.116 night and you just wander down this dark alley that 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:06.516 was all these wonderful memories at one point, and then 0:10:06.516 --> 0:10:09.556 you're just fucking stabbed in the heart. And and I 0:10:09.636 --> 0:10:11.836 was walking past I did that, And I was walking 0:10:11.876 --> 0:10:13.756 past the piano that I have in my house. And 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:17.236 I'm not a piano player really, but these keys, these 0:10:17.276 --> 0:10:19.876 certain keys like stuck out to me, and this melody 0:10:19.916 --> 0:10:23.796 kind of came out. I don't know how really, the 0:10:23.796 --> 0:10:27.676 beginning lyrics, they just came out too. And it's don't 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:31.756 go through your camera roll so much. You don't know 0:10:32.596 --> 0:10:36.996 that you forgot what a trip the way you can 0:10:37.036 --> 0:10:40.676 flip through all the good parts of it. I shouldn't 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:46.716 have done it chronological order and nothing the torch or 0:10:46.956 --> 0:10:51.076 scroll too far back, that's what you get. I don't 0:10:51.116 --> 0:10:54.916 want to see him that I can't delete. It just 0:10:54.996 --> 0:11:00.676 doesn't feel right yet, not yet, And like I just 0:11:00.796 --> 0:11:04.876 like could barely get through. I was like the ugly 0:11:04.956 --> 0:11:08.916 kind of like a little kid cry. It's like, just 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:14.596 like snot run it on my face. So yeah, anyway, 0:11:14.636 --> 0:11:16.636 that one was really hard. There's a bunch on there. 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:18.876 I mean they're pretty raw. Like I'm sharing a lot 0:11:18.916 --> 0:11:22.436 about my inner feelings and that's like it's not always 0:11:22.476 --> 0:11:26.316 easy for me. How do you feel that it changed 0:11:26.356 --> 0:11:31.676 your perspective of yourself. One thing that happened during my 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:36.316 trip was I came face to face with myself as 0:11:36.716 --> 0:11:39.636 a nine year old girl, and it was exactly me. 0:11:41.196 --> 0:11:46.196 I saw her, and I immediately felt this like intense 0:11:46.876 --> 0:11:50.796 compassion for her, this empathy. I started performing publicly around 0:11:50.836 --> 0:11:55.876 age nine, and so being on a stage learning how 0:11:55.916 --> 0:11:57.716 to please all these other people that you don't know 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:00.796 before you even really know how to delegate your own 0:12:00.796 --> 0:12:03.996 emotions within yourself. That's when my life kind of started 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:07.316 to change from like normal childhood to like something else, 0:12:07.436 --> 0:12:10.796 you know, And I thankful for all of it because 0:12:10.916 --> 0:12:13.156 it made me who I am. But it's also, you know, 0:12:13.276 --> 0:12:16.716 it's weird. It's a weird thing. So I came face 0:12:16.756 --> 0:12:20.116 to face with her at one point and I said, 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:22.236 I love you, I love you, I love you, and 0:12:22.316 --> 0:12:24.556 I gave her hugs, I gave her kisses, and I've 0:12:24.596 --> 0:12:27.076 felt for her because I can be very hard on myself. 0:12:27.636 --> 0:12:29.836 I can be like my worst critic, you know, and 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:32.756 so I'm the first to beat myself up over a 0:12:32.796 --> 0:12:35.756 flawless performance. That I'll find something that like no one 0:12:35.796 --> 0:12:38.996 would have noticed, and I'll just shred myself for it. 0:12:39.036 --> 0:12:41.956 And so like it taught me. It showed me to 0:12:42.316 --> 0:12:44.436 ease up on myself that I am, like, I am 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:46.356 good at loving, I am good at being a friend. 0:12:46.436 --> 0:12:49.396 I am I've been through a lot, and I deserve love. 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:52.916 And it really gave me compassion for myself, which I 0:12:52.956 --> 0:12:57.316 think is really a beautiful thing. You know. I had 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:01.756 all these childhood memories pop up that I hadn't remembered. 0:13:02.996 --> 0:13:05.676 I mean, they're and they played out in my mind 0:13:05.796 --> 0:13:08.196 like I was watching a home video. But it was me, 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:10.956 and it was actually things that actually happened. Like there 0:13:11.036 --> 0:13:12.516 was a time in my life where and I haven't 0:13:12.516 --> 0:13:15.116 talked about this really, but where I had us a 0:13:15.156 --> 0:13:16.836 little bit of an eating disorder for like a little 0:13:16.916 --> 0:13:20.236 period of time in my early teens. And now looking back, 0:13:20.356 --> 0:13:23.636 I got it all like it all downloaded in this moment. 0:13:24.556 --> 0:13:28.036 It's like, oh, yeah, I was wanting to relieve pressure 0:13:28.196 --> 0:13:31.796 of some kind, relief pressure, find some control, you know, 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:34.756 And it gave me compassion for the choices I made, 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:37.236 Like it kind of just allowed me to take a 0:13:37.236 --> 0:13:40.756 step back and see, you know, we all we're all 0:13:40.756 --> 0:13:44.116 trying to figure it out. You mentioned, wow, I actually 0:13:44.156 --> 0:13:46.796 had needing disorder. Yeah, and I guess you just buried 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:49.076 that away in your mind. I think I wrote it 0:13:49.116 --> 0:13:51.276 off being like, no, I wasn't an eating disorder. No, 0:13:51.356 --> 0:13:54.076 it was. It was it was a very it was 0:13:54.396 --> 0:13:56.636 it was about with bulimia. I mean I didn't and 0:13:56.636 --> 0:13:58.636 I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't know 0:13:58.796 --> 0:14:01.516 how to because I didn't didn't really know that it 0:14:01.556 --> 0:14:05.676 was like bad. I mean I just instinctively, some for 0:14:05.716 --> 0:14:08.036 some reason, felt that I needed to do that. Do 0:14:08.076 --> 0:14:10.756 you think part of that psychology you're just feeling so 0:14:10.836 --> 0:14:14.436 much pressure has persisted, which is why it reoccurred to 0:14:14.476 --> 0:14:18.196 you during this more recent trip. Maybe. So yeah, I 0:14:18.236 --> 0:14:22.356 mean it, I guess just showed me that, like everyone 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:25.276 has their way of dealing with pressure and need you know, 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:27.676 you want to control more. I've learned a lot about control. 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:31.956 You want to control when you don't feel safe. Yeah, 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:35.156 and that's I mean, I can really relate to that. 0:14:35.556 --> 0:14:38.116 Whatever is in your outside environment that is making you 0:14:38.116 --> 0:14:40.316 feel out of control, it just makes you grab on 0:14:40.436 --> 0:14:44.916 even harder, you know, So knowing that you're doing that 0:14:44.956 --> 0:14:47.196 and why you're doing that can at least maybe help 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:51.076 you like stop. Yeah, I can completely relate to that. 0:14:51.636 --> 0:14:55.476 So I've never tried psychedelics, but as a neuroscientist, I'm 0:14:55.476 --> 0:15:01.036 obviously fascinated biotopic and neuroscientists have said that from a 0:15:01.196 --> 0:15:04.716 neurological point of view, psychedelics do put the brain into 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:08.916 this childlike state of awe and wonder. And one of 0:15:08.956 --> 0:15:12.436 my favorite psychologists, her name is Alison gott Nick, she 0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:16.476 studies child development, has said that basically babies and children 0:15:16.556 --> 0:15:20.036 are tripping all the time, just such a fun and 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:22.916 like colorful way of kind of understanding what it's like. 0:15:23.316 --> 0:15:25.476 Did you feel that that kind of childlike alle and 0:15:26.316 --> 0:15:28.636 what kinds of things did you find yourself marveling at. 0:15:30.316 --> 0:15:33.716 I mean, you are just like astounded kind of at 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:39.836 the beauty and the intricacy of the of life and nature. 0:15:40.236 --> 0:15:42.956 You're like, oh my god. Any you think about, you 0:15:42.996 --> 0:15:46.156 have compassion for the earth as a living thing. You know. 0:15:46.476 --> 0:15:49.756 I just think that ultimately, psychedelics, one thing that I 0:15:49.836 --> 0:15:52.476 love about them is that it's they cause death to 0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:55.436 the human ego, and the human ego has caused so 0:15:55.476 --> 0:15:58.676 many problems over you know, over time. I mean, it's 0:15:58.716 --> 0:16:03.036 like it puts things into perspective. And I was talking 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:05.716 to my friend who is the doctor that I did 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.196 the trip with, and one thing that I loved how 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:10.676 she phrased this, and it's so true, is she said, 0:16:12.716 --> 0:16:14.756 in regards to psychedelics, you know, it's as if you're 0:16:14.876 --> 0:16:17.556 standing on a stage looking out to an audience, but 0:16:17.596 --> 0:16:21.196 the curtains are only open about a foot normally. This 0:16:21.276 --> 0:16:25.436 is she's talking about like in your normal, everyday human existence. 0:16:25.756 --> 0:16:29.276 But she's like, these plants, they take that curtain and 0:16:29.316 --> 0:16:32.236 they open it all the way around three sixty degrees, 0:16:32.436 --> 0:16:35.836 so that you can look around and go, oh my god, 0:16:35.876 --> 0:16:39.636 there's so much more. There's so much more going on 0:16:39.796 --> 0:16:44.156 that I get to see an experience on the emotional spectrum, 0:16:44.476 --> 0:16:48.236 the creative spectrum. That's one thing is like after the trip, 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:50.516 you know, here I am with all these new songs 0:16:50.516 --> 0:16:52.156 that I'm getting ready to put out into the world, 0:16:52.516 --> 0:16:58.036 some of which are super sarcastic or angry, sad, lonely. 0:16:58.076 --> 0:16:59.996 I mean, there's like a huge range of emotion through 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:02.396 what I like the past year that I've been there. 0:17:03.316 --> 0:17:06.636 Definitely after the trip, I was like, hold on, do 0:17:06.756 --> 0:17:10.476 I need to delete some of these songs? Like they 0:17:11.196 --> 0:17:15.076 they're definitely not coming from a super enlightened like person's perspective. 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:19.716 But I mean I think that that's okay. I don't 0:17:19.756 --> 0:17:22.436 feel like I would be doing myself a full service 0:17:22.716 --> 0:17:25.276 as a creator and as someone who went through something 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:29.036 to deny myself the expression of some of these emotions 0:17:29.036 --> 0:17:35.476 that are pretty fucking negative. We'll be back in a 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:50.516 moment with a slight change of plans. Casey's Psychedelic Trip 0:17:50.596 --> 0:17:53.596 helped her access the full range of emotion she experienced 0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:56.076 this past year, and she's poured it all into her 0:17:56.116 --> 0:17:59.356 new album the Casey's commitment to being honest about who 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:01.956 she is in her music is nothing new, and that 0:18:02.036 --> 0:18:06.276 presented some difficulties, especially early on in her career. Casey 0:18:06.316 --> 0:18:08.796 got her started Nashville at age nineteen when she was 0:18:08.876 --> 0:18:12.316 right songs for other country music stars to sing. You're 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:14.876 primarily writing for other people at this point, and then 0:18:15.236 --> 0:18:17.596 at a certain point you realize, hey, wait a second, 0:18:17.876 --> 0:18:19.556 I don't want to give these songs away. I want 0:18:19.556 --> 0:18:23.036 to keep them for myself, right. What was that like? Well, 0:18:23.116 --> 0:18:26.156 that's so I did notice a shift start happening where 0:18:26.996 --> 0:18:29.356 you know, I would love to pitch songs to artists 0:18:29.356 --> 0:18:30.996 and get cuts and make a living that way. But 0:18:31.036 --> 0:18:34.716 then I started stumbling upon these songs that, for whatever reason, 0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:36.756 just didn't feel like they would really apply to anyone 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:39.996 else but me, and I thought, well, maybe if I 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:43.396 did get the chance, like I would, I would put 0:18:43.436 --> 0:18:46.876 these out. Was there a particular lyric or a particular 0:18:46.956 --> 0:18:49.436 song where you thought that for the first time? Can 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:52.276 you share what that was? Well, it's some of the 0:18:52.316 --> 0:18:54.956 songs that were on my first album, Sam Trailer, Different Park. 0:18:55.596 --> 0:18:57.476 It was more of a vibe. It was more of like, oh, 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:00.716 this feels like me you know, and then once I 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:05.196 kind of set those aside and then started thinking, okay, 0:19:05.316 --> 0:19:09.356 like I could I could do this. I think when 0:19:09.356 --> 0:19:11.836 songs like Merry Go Round and Follow Your Arrow and 0:19:11.916 --> 0:19:15.076 things like that started coming out, So there was a 0:19:15.116 --> 0:19:18.156 moment where you really wanted Marry Go Around to be 0:19:18.716 --> 0:19:21.316 the first single, and you do get pushed back from 0:19:21.836 --> 0:19:25.516 music execs. Can you describe how that conversation went so 0:19:25.676 --> 0:19:28.676 Merry Go Round? First off, let me just say in 0:19:28.756 --> 0:19:32.156 country music there is quite a formula. There's a formula 0:19:32.156 --> 0:19:34.556 when it comes down to deciding which songs are going 0:19:34.596 --> 0:19:36.476 to be popular, which songs are going to be pushed, 0:19:36.716 --> 0:19:38.796 which songs are going to get like radio play, And 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:43.556 that formula has worked for a while, you know what 0:19:43.636 --> 0:19:47.036 I mean. And so when it comes to labels deciding 0:19:47.076 --> 0:19:51.916 what they're gonna put their money towards, they're looking at 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:54.836 what is going to be the least risky for them, 0:19:54.876 --> 0:19:57.876 you know, as a business. So that's why there's a 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:00.996 huge rub when it comes to like art and commerce. 0:20:00.996 --> 0:20:05.236 There just always has there always will be. Merry Go 0:20:05.356 --> 0:20:11.876 Round doesn't fit into those parameters down Trod. It's sarcastic, 0:20:12.396 --> 0:20:18.916 it's depressing, it's real it's truthful, it's biting. Tempo wise, 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:21.316 it's not it doesn't sound like a lot of things 0:20:21.356 --> 0:20:23.996 that were being popular at that time, like on the radio. 0:20:24.076 --> 0:20:27.116 So I can see why as business people they'd be like, 0:20:27.236 --> 0:20:31.716 oh no, this is like a no for listeners who 0:20:31.756 --> 0:20:33.836 aren't familiar with Mary ground. Do you mind just sharing 0:20:33.876 --> 0:20:38.396 some of the lyrics from the chorus. Sure. So it's 0:20:38.436 --> 0:20:41.156 a little bit of a trope on like the classic, 0:20:41.796 --> 0:20:44.916 like a classic nursery rhyme. You know, it's like Mama's 0:20:44.916 --> 0:20:48.836 hooked on Mary, Kay brother is hooked on Mary, Jane, 0:20:49.236 --> 0:20:54.956 Daddy's hooked on Mary. Tutors down Marry and Mary. Quite contrary, 0:20:55.036 --> 0:20:58.356 we get boards, we get married, and just like dust, 0:20:58.476 --> 0:21:02.956 we settle in this town on this broke and Mary 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:08.916 go around, realm, realm. We go where it stops, nobody knows, 0:21:09.356 --> 0:21:14.956 but it ain't slowing down this Marry go around. So 0:21:15.956 --> 0:21:19.956 you know, it's it's not like a happy go lucky 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:24.756 leg bob. It's but it's real and it's um it's 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:27.556 pointing the mirror inward. And I don't think that. You know, 0:21:27.716 --> 0:21:29.636 a lot of people don't want to hear songs like that. 0:21:29.676 --> 0:21:31.396 They don't want to hear songs that make them think, 0:21:31.916 --> 0:21:34.516 you know, if they're like if they're bopping around and 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:36.756 they're in the minivan, like taking kids to school, maybe 0:21:36.756 --> 0:21:38.236 they don't want to go that deep. Maybe they just 0:21:38.276 --> 0:21:40.716 want to stay up here. And that's fine. But for 0:21:40.836 --> 0:21:42.796 my first song that I wanted to put out there, 0:21:43.396 --> 0:21:45.236 I said, this is what I want to say, and 0:21:45.316 --> 0:21:47.196 if it's the only song I get to put out, 0:21:48.436 --> 0:21:51.636 I'm fine with that. Let's see what happens. And it 0:21:51.676 --> 0:21:55.076 did go um I can't even really remember, but it 0:21:55.116 --> 0:21:58.156 did get some good radio play, it got some some 0:21:58.196 --> 0:22:00.396 good traction. I think it made it to the top 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:02.876 ten or very near it, and in one Country Song 0:22:02.916 --> 0:22:06.476 of the Year, it want a Grammy for Song of 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:10.876 the Year. So I was like, take that, y'all. It's 0:22:10.916 --> 0:22:15.036 just like, it's like, why don't you just trust trust me? 0:22:15.356 --> 0:22:17.476 Trust me. I'm going to know myself way better than 0:22:17.516 --> 0:22:19.276 you know, and I know what's going to be best 0:22:19.316 --> 0:22:21.316 for me, and that may not always be like a 0:22:21.356 --> 0:22:25.516 freaking home run, but like it was though when you 0:22:25.596 --> 0:22:28.396 knew it, I love it. I think what's so striking 0:22:28.716 --> 0:22:30.836 to me about your story? And I think a lot 0:22:30.876 --> 0:22:33.316 of listeners will be so curious to know this. It 0:22:33.516 --> 0:22:37.036 is so hard to break into the music industry, and 0:22:37.076 --> 0:22:40.516 so you can easily imagine convincing yourself in the moment, Okay, 0:22:40.676 --> 0:22:42.436 I'm just going to cave a little bit, okay, just 0:22:42.556 --> 0:22:45.076 to break in, just to get a career going, and 0:22:45.116 --> 0:22:47.756 then at that point I will stand my grand and 0:22:47.756 --> 0:22:50.756 then I'll do And yet you were, you were absolutely 0:22:50.796 --> 0:22:55.556 resolute from the outset. Well, it's it's a backwards way 0:22:55.596 --> 0:22:57.916 of thinking the other way because so then what you've 0:22:57.956 --> 0:23:00.236 broken in and you've now convinced everyone that you're this 0:23:00.316 --> 0:23:01.796 one thing, and then you do a one eighty on 0:23:01.836 --> 0:23:03.276 them and they're confused and they don't know what the 0:23:03.276 --> 0:23:05.556 hell you are. That sounds like hell to me, Like 0:23:05.596 --> 0:23:08.956 I would never do that, Like I would rather put 0:23:08.956 --> 0:23:14.476 my head down and work like exponentially harder at what 0:23:14.516 --> 0:23:17.036 I really am and what I'm passionate about and end 0:23:17.116 --> 0:23:20.196 up with less fans or less success than to have 0:23:20.276 --> 0:23:23.996 this like mansion on a hill filled with all these awards, 0:23:24.356 --> 0:23:26.876 you know, for things that I am not super proud of. 0:23:26.956 --> 0:23:29.716 Like that just seems like a really like sad. It 0:23:29.716 --> 0:23:32.396 just seems sad, And I mean, art is just this 0:23:32.476 --> 0:23:37.076 like it's not supposed to be digestible for everyone. You 0:23:37.156 --> 0:23:39.756 talked about things that are pretty unconventional to talk about 0:23:39.796 --> 0:23:43.516 in country music right certainly at the time, like homosexuality, 0:23:43.876 --> 0:23:47.876 recreational drug youth, not going to church. How did you 0:23:47.916 --> 0:23:52.676 respond to that pushback. It's interesting because if you look 0:23:52.676 --> 0:23:56.116 at the history of country music, it is a genre 0:23:56.316 --> 0:24:00.916 based on songs that tell stories, and sometimes stories aren't 0:24:00.916 --> 0:24:07.276 always positive or mainstream. And I mean, country music is 0:24:07.276 --> 0:24:10.076 supposed to be for people who are experiencing heartache, real 0:24:10.196 --> 0:24:14.716 life struggle, jobs, divorced, heartbreak, you know, death like all this, 0:24:14.836 --> 0:24:19.916