1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you look at the history of country music, 2 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 1: it is a genre based on songs that tell stories, 3 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:43,956 Speaker 1: and sometimes stories aren't always positive or mainstream. And I 4 00:00:43,996 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: mean country music is supposed to be for people who 5 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:52,436 Speaker 1: are experiencing heartache, real life struggle, jobs, divorce, heartbreak, you know, death, 6 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: like all this, and so in my mind, the most 7 00:00:56,676 --> 00:00:59,276 Speaker 1: country thing you can do is to like just talk 8 00:00:59,316 --> 00:01:04,036 Speaker 1: about it all that. Singer songwriter Kasey Musgraves, she says 9 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 1: she's always had a strong sense of herself and her sound, 10 00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: even when it's cut against country music norms. In recent years, 11 00:01:11,356 --> 00:01:15,036 Speaker 1: casies try to further unlock her full self through psychedelic trips. 12 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 1: Research and neuroscience shows that people can leave their trips 13 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 1: with profound shifts in perspective and in certain personality traits 14 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: that otherwise rarely change after age thirty. A trait like openness, 15 00:01:26,996 --> 00:01:30,636 Speaker 1: for example, which is highly associated with creativity, tends to 16 00:01:30,716 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 1: decrease as we age, but scientific research coming out of 17 00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:38,396 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University has shown that psychedelic experiences can actually 18 00:01:38,436 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 1: increase people's openness, which includes everything from esthetic appreciation to 19 00:01:43,156 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: empathy to imagination. Literally, the day after my experience I 20 00:01:48,596 --> 00:01:51,396 Speaker 1: mean it was like the neurons were just firing off 21 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:56,756 Speaker 1: like insane imagery perspective. I mean, there was a massive 22 00:01:56,876 --> 00:02:01,436 Speaker 1: explosion of creativity ideas the whole concept for my new 23 00:02:01,476 --> 00:02:04,996 Speaker 1: album that I've been writing. One of my inspirations for 24 00:02:05,076 --> 00:02:07,796 Speaker 1: creating this podcast has been to see how people change 25 00:02:07,796 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: their perspectives of who they are and how they relate 26 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: to the world in the face of a big change. 27 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:17,036 Speaker 1: Research shows that psychedelics can offer up a turbocharge version 28 00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:19,956 Speaker 1: of this kind of change, and as a cognitive scientist, 29 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:23,436 Speaker 1: I've long been fascinated by the powerful impact psychedelics can 30 00:02:23,476 --> 00:02:27,196 Speaker 1: have on the human mind, but my interest lies exclusively 31 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:30,756 Speaker 1: in the scientific realm. It's worth noting that experimenting with 32 00:02:30,796 --> 00:02:33,916 Speaker 1: these drugs without close medical guidance and a full evaluation 33 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:38,996 Speaker 1: of one's mental health history can carry considerable risk. For 34 00:02:39,076 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: this episode of A Slight Change of Plans, I wanted 35 00:02:41,676 --> 00:02:44,796 Speaker 1: to talk to Casey Musgraves about the role psychedelics has 36 00:02:44,796 --> 00:02:47,956 Speaker 1: played in her creative process, both for her Grammy Award 37 00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:51,396 Speaker 1: winning album Golden Hour and for her upcoming album, which 38 00:02:51,396 --> 00:02:56,156 Speaker 1: she says was inspired by a guided psychedelic trip. I'm 39 00:02:56,156 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 1: Maya Shanker and this is a slight change of plants, 40 00:02:59,116 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change 41 00:03:01,516 --> 00:03:04,116 Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently at that change 42 00:03:04,156 --> 00:03:20,036 Speaker 1: in our own lives. What's astonishing to me is that 43 00:03:20,156 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 1: when researchers run studies, right controlled studies where they're looking 44 00:03:23,156 --> 00:03:27,516 Speaker 1: at the impact of psychedelics on people, so many will say, Wow, 45 00:03:27,636 --> 00:03:30,596 Speaker 1: that was one of the most profound experiences of my 46 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 1: entire life. Yes, and yet they really really have a 47 00:03:33,956 --> 00:03:37,556 Speaker 1: hard time putting into words why that was or even 48 00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 1: describing the experience. It's like the vocabulary that we have 49 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:44,236 Speaker 1: in our language is insufficient trying to describe. Yeah, do 50 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 1: you feel like having music as another vehicle for communication 51 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:51,956 Speaker 1: allows you to share what it felt like in a 52 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:55,396 Speaker 1: different way or more effectively? I feel like music is 53 00:03:55,836 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: totally another catalyst to feeling. And what's cool is if 54 00:04:00,676 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 1: you really just break it down, I mean, it's sound 55 00:04:02,596 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 1: waves where like these bags of water basically, and like 56 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:09,956 Speaker 1: when sound vibrates out and sound waves hit you. I 57 00:04:09,956 --> 00:04:12,516 Speaker 1: mean it's cool that it can actually change your mood, 58 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:16,676 Speaker 1: change your mind. When you've tried psychedelics for the first time, 59 00:04:17,716 --> 00:04:19,956 Speaker 1: had you hope that it might inspire music or were 60 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 1: you just on a sort of personal journey. Well, I've 61 00:04:23,276 --> 00:04:26,756 Speaker 1: done it recreationally, you know, I think it's different when 62 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: you do it with intention. I mean what I was 63 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 1: looking for most recently when I did a guided trip 64 00:04:32,316 --> 00:04:34,956 Speaker 1: in January. You know, this past year I went through 65 00:04:35,516 --> 00:04:39,876 Speaker 1: a divorce and it was not an easy time everything 66 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:43,756 Speaker 1: that came along with that. And so this experience, which 67 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: was led by not only two of my friends, but 68 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:49,276 Speaker 1: one of them is a doctor practicing doctor and her husband, 69 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:57,036 Speaker 1: it was about transforming my trauma, my tragedy into something else, 70 00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:00,076 Speaker 1: you know, and everyone has their own form of trauma. 71 00:05:00,316 --> 00:05:05,356 Speaker 1: This was mine. But experiences like this they bring people 72 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:10,116 Speaker 1: to a place where they meet like or inner self healer, 73 00:05:10,116 --> 00:05:13,556 Speaker 1: they're inner child. And I mean, you know more about 74 00:05:13,596 --> 00:05:16,036 Speaker 1: this than I do. But I just think it's interesting 75 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 1: that you know, as you live your life, you wear 76 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,956 Speaker 1: down these pathways in your brain, almost like little trails 77 00:05:21,076 --> 00:05:23,076 Speaker 1: you know, in the woods or something. Whatever is in 78 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 1: these psychedelics, this medicine, these plants, they can change these 79 00:05:28,396 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 1: pathways and allow you to think differently, access different emotions, 80 00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 1: different memories, and change your life, change your habits. It 81 00:05:37,556 --> 00:05:41,356 Speaker 1: literally the day after my experience I mean it was 82 00:05:41,396 --> 00:05:46,836 Speaker 1: like the neurons were just firing off like insane imagery perspective. 83 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:52,476 Speaker 1: I mean, there was a massive explosion of creativity ideas 84 00:05:52,516 --> 00:05:55,396 Speaker 1: the whole concept for my new album that I've been writing. 85 00:05:56,636 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 1: Do you feel like these trips inspire lyrics or do 86 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:05,516 Speaker 1: they inspire melodies or do they inspire both? It's different 87 00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:07,716 Speaker 1: every time, I think, And you can't really go in 88 00:06:07,796 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: with like a preconceived selfish want. You know, you're going 89 00:06:12,756 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: to get what you get. And like the day after 90 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:19,116 Speaker 1: my guided Trip, I was laying here on the bed, 91 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:22,596 Speaker 1: and so what's cool is you you trip to this 92 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: to this playlist that's been curated by these scientists, and 93 00:06:25,876 --> 00:06:29,236 Speaker 1: these these songs, and there are songs from all over 94 00:06:29,276 --> 00:06:32,156 Speaker 1: the world. There's classical music, there's Bach motz Art, you know, 95 00:06:32,236 --> 00:06:35,956 Speaker 1: but then there's like shamonic you know, chants and drumming 96 00:06:36,156 --> 00:06:40,836 Speaker 1: from Peru or Mexico, and there's also like the Beatles 97 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: and dr and it's very vast, you know. So you 98 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:49,676 Speaker 1: listen to this playlist, it guides you through these emotions 99 00:06:49,716 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 1: and feelings purposefully, and some of us pretty intense. And 100 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 1: then you as you kind of are coming out of 101 00:06:56,956 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 1: your experience. You are resonating with these like massive feelings 102 00:07:01,036 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 1: of gratitude and warmth, and the music that I heard, 103 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:05,636 Speaker 1: I've never heard music like that in my life. Like 104 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:08,396 Speaker 1: you could just feel it in your bones, like your cells. 105 00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 1: You're just like it's running through you in a way 106 00:07:12,156 --> 00:07:18,076 Speaker 1: that I've never never experienced before. And what's cool is 107 00:07:18,156 --> 00:07:21,796 Speaker 1: you can go back to that playlist anytime and tap 108 00:07:21,836 --> 00:07:24,756 Speaker 1: into those same feelings and you journal about it, and 109 00:07:24,876 --> 00:07:27,276 Speaker 1: you're able to go right back to kind of where 110 00:07:27,276 --> 00:07:30,556 Speaker 1: you were and be able to somewhat verbalize, you know, 111 00:07:30,676 --> 00:07:33,116 Speaker 1: what you experienced. So the next day after the thing, 112 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:35,716 Speaker 1: I was laying on my bed and re listening to 113 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:38,436 Speaker 1: this playlist and Boch came on and it was this 114 00:07:38,756 --> 00:07:45,036 Speaker 1: sorrowful tragic number and the word tragedy popped in my head. 115 00:07:45,356 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: It was like boom, tragedy. And then I was like, wait, 116 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:52,316 Speaker 1: what if the new album is formulated like a modern tragedy. 117 00:07:52,356 --> 00:07:55,156 Speaker 1: It's a modern tragedy. I've been through a tragedy and 118 00:07:55,196 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 1: so as America, you know. And from there it was 119 00:07:59,556 --> 00:08:06,756 Speaker 1: just like like just off the rills, like boom boom boom, songs, 120 00:08:07,396 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 1: album title, concept visuals, like all of it it was crazy. 121 00:08:12,996 --> 00:08:15,716 Speaker 1: I thought about Romeo and Juliet, and I thought about Starcross. 122 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:17,796 Speaker 1: The word Starcross that popped in my head, and I thought, 123 00:08:17,836 --> 00:08:20,756 Speaker 1: I need to write a song called Starcross. And I 124 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:25,236 Speaker 1: love the definition of Starcross because it's two people who 125 00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:29,036 Speaker 1: love each other so much, but they just cannot make 126 00:08:29,076 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 1: it work because even the universe is against them, the 127 00:08:31,196 --> 00:08:34,356 Speaker 1: stars are against them, they're ill faded, they were doomed 128 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:37,596 Speaker 1: from the beginning, but there's love there. And I resonate 129 00:08:37,636 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: a lot with that, with my personal story and what 130 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: I've been through, and so I was like, Okay, Starcross, 131 00:08:41,596 --> 00:08:44,356 Speaker 1: I have to write that. So the next day I 132 00:08:44,436 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 1: went in the studio we wrote Starcross. It was our 133 00:08:47,116 --> 00:08:50,156 Speaker 1: fortieth song that we had written. What was the hardest 134 00:08:50,196 --> 00:08:52,676 Speaker 1: song that you felt you wrote for this album? Just 135 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 1: from an emotional perspective, M let me look at little 136 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:06,356 Speaker 1: song list. There's fifteen. There's five songs in each act. 137 00:09:05,876 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 1: In most tragedies, like an artistic sense, there's three acts. 138 00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:15,156 Speaker 1: There's the exposition setting up a scene. Act two the 139 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 1: rise of the conflict and the downfall of the characters, 140 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: the heartbreak, and then Act three is like the resolution 141 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,316 Speaker 1: the acceptance, you know, the reflection and the hope toward 142 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 1: the future or whatever. So there's five songs in each act. 143 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 1: So there's a song on here called camera roll, and man, 144 00:09:36,956 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 1: it sucks me up bad, like it still does. I, 145 00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:44,236 Speaker 1: you know, after the divorce and everything. You know, you 146 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 1: have all these photos of your life, your old life, 147 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 1: in your phone, and you don't know what to do 148 00:09:50,876 --> 00:09:52,716 Speaker 1: with them. You're like, do I delete this? This person 149 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:55,556 Speaker 1: didn't die and these are still my memories, but like, 150 00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:58,156 Speaker 1: I don't want to see him every day. Well, you know, 151 00:09:58,356 --> 00:10:00,756 Speaker 1: you get to scrolling on your phone, like one late 152 00:10:00,876 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 1: night and you just wander down this dark alley that 153 00:10:04,276 --> 00:10:06,516 Speaker 1: was all these wonderful memories at one point, and then 154 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 1: you're just fucking stabbed in the heart. And and I 155 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 1: was walking past I did that, And I was walking 156 00:10:11,876 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: past the piano that I have in my house. And 157 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:17,236 Speaker 1: I'm not a piano player really, but these keys, these 158 00:10:17,276 --> 00:10:19,876 Speaker 1: certain keys like stuck out to me, and this melody 159 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 1: kind of came out. I don't know how really, the 160 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 1: beginning lyrics, they just came out too. And it's don't 161 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:31,756 Speaker 1: go through your camera roll so much. You don't know 162 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: that you forgot what a trip the way you can 163 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: flip through all the good parts of it. I shouldn't 164 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:46,716 Speaker 1: have done it chronological order and nothing the torch or 165 00:10:46,956 --> 00:10:51,076 Speaker 1: scroll too far back, that's what you get. I don't 166 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 1: want to see him that I can't delete. It just 167 00:10:54,996 --> 00:11:00,676 Speaker 1: doesn't feel right yet, not yet, And like I just 168 00:11:00,796 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: like could barely get through. I was like the ugly 169 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:08,916 Speaker 1: kind of like a little kid cry. It's like, just 170 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 1: like snot run it on my face. So yeah, anyway, 171 00:11:14,636 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 1: that one was really hard. There's a bunch on there. 172 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:18,876 Speaker 1: I mean they're pretty raw. Like I'm sharing a lot 173 00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:22,436 Speaker 1: about my inner feelings and that's like it's not always 174 00:11:22,476 --> 00:11:26,316 Speaker 1: easy for me. How do you feel that it changed 175 00:11:26,356 --> 00:11:31,676 Speaker 1: your perspective of yourself. One thing that happened during my 176 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 1: trip was I came face to face with myself as 177 00:11:36,716 --> 00:11:39,636 Speaker 1: a nine year old girl, and it was exactly me. 178 00:11:41,196 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 1: I saw her, and I immediately felt this like intense 179 00:11:46,876 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: compassion for her, this empathy. I started performing publicly around 180 00:11:50,836 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 1: age nine, and so being on a stage learning how 181 00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:57,716 Speaker 1: to please all these other people that you don't know 182 00:11:58,316 --> 00:12:00,796 Speaker 1: before you even really know how to delegate your own 183 00:12:00,796 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: emotions within yourself. That's when my life kind of started 184 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:07,316 Speaker 1: to change from like normal childhood to like something else, 185 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:10,796 Speaker 1: you know, And I thankful for all of it because 186 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:13,156 Speaker 1: it made me who I am. But it's also, you know, 187 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's a weird thing. So I came face 188 00:12:16,756 --> 00:12:20,116 Speaker 1: to face with her at one point and I said, 189 00:12:20,116 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 1: I love you, I love you, I love you, and 190 00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: I gave her hugs, I gave her kisses, and I've 191 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:27,076 Speaker 1: felt for her because I can be very hard on myself. 192 00:12:27,636 --> 00:12:29,836 Speaker 1: I can be like my worst critic, you know, and 193 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:32,756 Speaker 1: so I'm the first to beat myself up over a 194 00:12:32,796 --> 00:12:35,756 Speaker 1: flawless performance. That I'll find something that like no one 195 00:12:35,796 --> 00:12:38,996 Speaker 1: would have noticed, and I'll just shred myself for it. 196 00:12:39,036 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: And so like it taught me. It showed me to 197 00:12:42,316 --> 00:12:44,436 Speaker 1: ease up on myself that I am, like, I am 198 00:12:44,476 --> 00:12:46,356 Speaker 1: good at loving, I am good at being a friend. 199 00:12:46,436 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: I am I've been through a lot, and I deserve love. 200 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: And it really gave me compassion for myself, which I 201 00:12:52,956 --> 00:12:57,316 Speaker 1: think is really a beautiful thing. You know. I had 202 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:01,756 Speaker 1: all these childhood memories pop up that I hadn't remembered. 203 00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:05,676 Speaker 1: I mean, they're and they played out in my mind 204 00:13:05,796 --> 00:13:08,196 Speaker 1: like I was watching a home video. But it was me, 205 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 1: and it was actually things that actually happened. Like there 206 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:12,516 Speaker 1: was a time in my life where and I haven't 207 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,116 Speaker 1: talked about this really, but where I had us a 208 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:16,836 Speaker 1: little bit of an eating disorder for like a little 209 00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:20,236 Speaker 1: period of time in my early teens. And now looking back, 210 00:13:20,356 --> 00:13:23,636 Speaker 1: I got it all like it all downloaded in this moment. 211 00:13:24,556 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, yeah, I was wanting to relieve pressure 212 00:13:28,196 --> 00:13:31,796 Speaker 1: of some kind, relief pressure, find some control, you know, 213 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:34,756 Speaker 1: And it gave me compassion for the choices I made, 214 00:13:34,796 --> 00:13:37,236 Speaker 1: Like it kind of just allowed me to take a 215 00:13:37,236 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 1: step back and see, you know, we all we're all 216 00:13:40,756 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. You mentioned, wow, I actually 217 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 1: had needing disorder. Yeah, and I guess you just buried 218 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:49,076 Speaker 1: that away in your mind. I think I wrote it 219 00:13:49,116 --> 00:13:51,276 Speaker 1: off being like, no, I wasn't an eating disorder. No, 220 00:13:51,356 --> 00:13:54,076 Speaker 1: it was. It was it was a very it was 221 00:13:54,396 --> 00:13:56,636 Speaker 1: it was about with bulimia. I mean I didn't and 222 00:13:56,636 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 1: I didn't talk to anyone about it. I didn't know 223 00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 1: how to because I didn't didn't really know that it 224 00:14:01,556 --> 00:14:05,676 Speaker 1: was like bad. I mean I just instinctively, some for 225 00:14:05,716 --> 00:14:08,036 Speaker 1: some reason, felt that I needed to do that. Do 226 00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:10,756 Speaker 1: you think part of that psychology you're just feeling so 227 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:14,436 Speaker 1: much pressure has persisted, which is why it reoccurred to 228 00:14:14,476 --> 00:14:18,196 Speaker 1: you during this more recent trip. Maybe. So yeah, I 229 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:22,356 Speaker 1: mean it, I guess just showed me that, like everyone 230 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:25,276 Speaker 1: has their way of dealing with pressure and need you know, 231 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: you want to control more. I've learned a lot about control. 232 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,956 Speaker 1: You want to control when you don't feel safe. Yeah, 233 00:14:31,996 --> 00:14:35,156 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, I can really relate to that. 234 00:14:35,556 --> 00:14:38,116 Speaker 1: Whatever is in your outside environment that is making you 235 00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:40,316 Speaker 1: feel out of control, it just makes you grab on 236 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 1: even harder, you know, So knowing that you're doing that 237 00:14:44,956 --> 00:14:47,196 Speaker 1: and why you're doing that can at least maybe help 238 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:51,076 Speaker 1: you like stop. Yeah, I can completely relate to that. 239 00:14:51,636 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: So I've never tried psychedelics, but as a neuroscientist, I'm 240 00:14:55,476 --> 00:15:01,036 Speaker 1: obviously fascinated biotopic and neuroscientists have said that from a 241 00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: neurological point of view, psychedelics do put the brain into 242 00:15:04,756 --> 00:15:08,916 Speaker 1: this childlike state of awe and wonder. And one of 243 00:15:08,956 --> 00:15:12,436 Speaker 1: my favorite psychologists, her name is Alison gott Nick, she 244 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: studies child development, has said that basically babies and children 245 00:15:16,556 --> 00:15:20,036 Speaker 1: are tripping all the time, just such a fun and 246 00:15:20,116 --> 00:15:22,916 Speaker 1: like colorful way of kind of understanding what it's like. 247 00:15:23,316 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: Did you feel that that kind of childlike alle and 248 00:15:26,316 --> 00:15:28,636 Speaker 1: what kinds of things did you find yourself marveling at. 249 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:33,716 Speaker 1: I mean, you are just like astounded kind of at 250 00:15:33,756 --> 00:15:39,836 Speaker 1: the beauty and the intricacy of the of life and nature. 251 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:42,956 Speaker 1: You're like, oh my god. Any you think about, you 252 00:15:42,996 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: have compassion for the earth as a living thing. You know. 253 00:15:46,476 --> 00:15:49,756 Speaker 1: I just think that ultimately, psychedelics, one thing that I 254 00:15:49,836 --> 00:15:52,476 Speaker 1: love about them is that it's they cause death to 255 00:15:52,516 --> 00:15:55,436 Speaker 1: the human ego, and the human ego has caused so 256 00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 1: many problems over you know, over time. I mean, it's 257 00:15:58,716 --> 00:16:03,036 Speaker 1: like it puts things into perspective. And I was talking 258 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:05,716 Speaker 1: to my friend who is the doctor that I did 259 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 1: the trip with, and one thing that I loved how 260 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:10,676 Speaker 1: she phrased this, and it's so true, is she said, 261 00:16:12,716 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: in regards to psychedelics, you know, it's as if you're 262 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: standing on a stage looking out to an audience, but 263 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:21,196 Speaker 1: the curtains are only open about a foot normally. This 264 00:16:21,276 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: is she's talking about like in your normal, everyday human existence. 265 00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: But she's like, these plants, they take that curtain and 266 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 1: they open it all the way around three sixty degrees, 267 00:16:32,436 --> 00:16:35,836 Speaker 1: so that you can look around and go, oh my god, 268 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:39,636 Speaker 1: there's so much more. There's so much more going on 269 00:16:39,796 --> 00:16:44,156 Speaker 1: that I get to see an experience on the emotional spectrum, 270 00:16:44,476 --> 00:16:48,236 Speaker 1: the creative spectrum. That's one thing is like after the trip, 271 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:50,516 Speaker 1: you know, here I am with all these new songs 272 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:52,156 Speaker 1: that I'm getting ready to put out into the world, 273 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:58,036 Speaker 1: some of which are super sarcastic or angry, sad, lonely. 274 00:16:58,076 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: I mean, there's like a huge range of emotion through 275 00:17:00,076 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 1: what I like the past year that I've been there. 276 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 1: Definitely after the trip, I was like, hold on, do 277 00:17:06,756 --> 00:17:10,476 Speaker 1: I need to delete some of these songs? Like they 278 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 1: they're definitely not coming from a super enlightened like person's perspective. 279 00:17:16,396 --> 00:17:19,716 Speaker 1: But I mean I think that that's okay. I don't 280 00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 1: feel like I would be doing myself a full service 281 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:25,276 Speaker 1: as a creator and as someone who went through something 282 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: to deny myself the expression of some of these emotions 283 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: that are pretty fucking negative. We'll be back in a 284 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 1: moment with a slight change of plans. Casey's Psychedelic Trip 285 00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:53,596 Speaker 1: helped her access the full range of emotion she experienced 286 00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: this past year, and she's poured it all into her 287 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,356 Speaker 1: new album the Casey's commitment to being honest about who 288 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:01,956 Speaker 1: she is in her music is nothing new, and that 289 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:06,276 Speaker 1: presented some difficulties, especially early on in her career. Casey 290 00:18:06,316 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: got her started Nashville at age nineteen when she was 291 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:12,316 Speaker 1: right songs for other country music stars to sing. You're 292 00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:14,876 Speaker 1: primarily writing for other people at this point, and then 293 00:18:15,236 --> 00:18:17,596 Speaker 1: at a certain point you realize, hey, wait a second, 294 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:19,556 Speaker 1: I don't want to give these songs away. I want 295 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,036 Speaker 1: to keep them for myself, right. What was that like? Well, 296 00:18:23,116 --> 00:18:26,156 Speaker 1: that's so I did notice a shift start happening where 297 00:18:26,996 --> 00:18:29,356 Speaker 1: you know, I would love to pitch songs to artists 298 00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 1: and get cuts and make a living that way. But 299 00:18:31,036 --> 00:18:34,716 Speaker 1: then I started stumbling upon these songs that, for whatever reason, 300 00:18:34,836 --> 00:18:36,756 Speaker 1: just didn't feel like they would really apply to anyone 301 00:18:36,796 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: else but me, and I thought, well, maybe if I 302 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:43,396 Speaker 1: did get the chance, like I would, I would put 303 00:18:43,436 --> 00:18:46,876 Speaker 1: these out. Was there a particular lyric or a particular 304 00:18:46,956 --> 00:18:49,436 Speaker 1: song where you thought that for the first time? Can 305 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: you share what that was? Well, it's some of the 306 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:54,956 Speaker 1: songs that were on my first album, Sam Trailer, Different Park. 307 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 1: It was more of a vibe. It was more of like, oh, 308 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:00,716 Speaker 1: this feels like me you know, and then once I 309 00:19:00,796 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: kind of set those aside and then started thinking, okay, 310 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:09,356 Speaker 1: like I could I could do this. I think when 311 00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:11,836 Speaker 1: songs like Merry Go Round and Follow Your Arrow and 312 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 1: things like that started coming out, So there was a 313 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 1: moment where you really wanted Marry Go Around to be 314 00:19:18,716 --> 00:19:21,316 Speaker 1: the first single, and you do get pushed back from 315 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: music execs. Can you describe how that conversation went so 316 00:19:25,676 --> 00:19:28,676 Speaker 1: Merry Go Round? First off, let me just say in 317 00:19:28,756 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 1: country music there is quite a formula. There's a formula 318 00:19:32,156 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 1: when it comes down to deciding which songs are going 319 00:19:34,596 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 1: to be popular, which songs are going to be pushed, 320 00:19:36,716 --> 00:19:38,796 Speaker 1: which songs are going to get like radio play, And 321 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:43,556 Speaker 1: that formula has worked for a while, you know what 322 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: I mean. And so when it comes to labels deciding 323 00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:51,916 Speaker 1: what they're gonna put their money towards, they're looking at 324 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 1: what is going to be the least risky for them, 325 00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:57,876 Speaker 1: you know, as a business. So that's why there's a 326 00:19:57,996 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: huge rub when it comes to like art and commerce. 327 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:05,236 Speaker 1: There just always has there always will be. Merry Go 328 00:20:05,356 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: Round doesn't fit into those parameters down Trod. It's sarcastic, 329 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:18,916 Speaker 1: it's depressing, it's real it's truthful, it's biting. Tempo wise, 330 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:21,316 Speaker 1: it's not it doesn't sound like a lot of things 331 00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:23,996 Speaker 1: that were being popular at that time, like on the radio. 332 00:20:24,076 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 1: So I can see why as business people they'd be like, 333 00:20:27,236 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 1: oh no, this is like a no for listeners who 334 00:20:31,756 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with Mary ground. Do you mind just sharing 335 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:38,396 Speaker 1: some of the lyrics from the chorus. Sure. So it's 336 00:20:38,436 --> 00:20:41,156 Speaker 1: a little bit of a trope on like the classic, 337 00:20:41,796 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: like a classic nursery rhyme. You know, it's like Mama's 338 00:20:44,916 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 1: hooked on Mary, Kay brother is hooked on Mary, Jane, 339 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 1: Daddy's hooked on Mary. Tutors down Marry and Mary. Quite contrary, 340 00:20:55,036 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 1: we get boards, we get married, and just like dust, 341 00:20:58,476 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 1: we settle in this town on this broke and Mary 342 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:08,916 Speaker 1: go around, realm, realm. We go where it stops, nobody knows, 343 00:21:09,356 --> 00:21:14,956 Speaker 1: but it ain't slowing down this Marry go around. So 344 00:21:15,956 --> 00:21:19,956 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's not like a happy go lucky 345 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:24,756 Speaker 1: leg bob. It's but it's real and it's um it's 346 00:21:24,796 --> 00:21:27,556 Speaker 1: pointing the mirror inward. And I don't think that. You know, 347 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:29,636 Speaker 1: a lot of people don't want to hear songs like that. 348 00:21:29,676 --> 00:21:31,396 Speaker 1: They don't want to hear songs that make them think, 349 00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:34,516 Speaker 1: you know, if they're like if they're bopping around and 350 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 1: they're in the minivan, like taking kids to school, maybe 351 00:21:36,756 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 1: they don't want to go that deep. Maybe they just 352 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:40,716 Speaker 1: want to stay up here. And that's fine. But for 353 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:42,796 Speaker 1: my first song that I wanted to put out there, 354 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:45,236 Speaker 1: I said, this is what I want to say, and 355 00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:47,196 Speaker 1: if it's the only song I get to put out, 356 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:51,636 Speaker 1: I'm fine with that. Let's see what happens. And it 357 00:21:51,676 --> 00:21:55,076 Speaker 1: did go um I can't even really remember, but it 358 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: did get some good radio play, it got some some 359 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:00,396 Speaker 1: good traction. I think it made it to the top 360 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:02,876 Speaker 1: ten or very near it, and in one Country Song 361 00:22:02,916 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: of the Year, it want a Grammy for Song of 362 00:22:06,516 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 1: the Year. So I was like, take that, y'all. It's 363 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:15,036 Speaker 1: just like, it's like, why don't you just trust trust me? 364 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 1: Trust me. I'm going to know myself way better than 365 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 1: you know, and I know what's going to be best 366 00:22:19,316 --> 00:22:21,316 Speaker 1: for me, and that may not always be like a 367 00:22:21,356 --> 00:22:25,516 Speaker 1: freaking home run, but like it was though when you 368 00:22:25,596 --> 00:22:28,396 Speaker 1: knew it, I love it. I think what's so striking 369 00:22:28,716 --> 00:22:30,836 Speaker 1: to me about your story? And I think a lot 370 00:22:30,876 --> 00:22:33,316 Speaker 1: of listeners will be so curious to know this. It 371 00:22:33,516 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 1: is so hard to break into the music industry, and 372 00:22:37,076 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 1: so you can easily imagine convincing yourself in the moment, Okay, 373 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:42,436 Speaker 1: I'm just going to cave a little bit, okay, just 374 00:22:42,556 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: to break in, just to get a career going, and 375 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:47,756 Speaker 1: then at that point I will stand my grand and 376 00:22:47,756 --> 00:22:50,756 Speaker 1: then I'll do And yet you were, you were absolutely 377 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:55,556 Speaker 1: resolute from the outset. Well, it's it's a backwards way 378 00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: of thinking the other way because so then what you've 379 00:22:57,956 --> 00:23:00,236 Speaker 1: broken in and you've now convinced everyone that you're this 380 00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 1: one thing, and then you do a one eighty on 381 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:03,276 Speaker 1: them and they're confused and they don't know what the 382 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 1: hell you are. That sounds like hell to me, Like 383 00:23:05,596 --> 00:23:08,956 Speaker 1: I would never do that, Like I would rather put 384 00:23:08,956 --> 00:23:14,476 Speaker 1: my head down and work like exponentially harder at what 385 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: I really am and what I'm passionate about and end 386 00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:20,196 Speaker 1: up with less fans or less success than to have 387 00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:23,996 Speaker 1: this like mansion on a hill filled with all these awards, 388 00:23:24,356 --> 00:23:26,876 Speaker 1: you know, for things that I am not super proud of. 389 00:23:26,956 --> 00:23:29,716 Speaker 1: Like that just seems like a really like sad. It 390 00:23:29,716 --> 00:23:32,396 Speaker 1: just seems sad, And I mean, art is just this 391 00:23:32,476 --> 00:23:37,076 Speaker 1: like it's not supposed to be digestible for everyone. You 392 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:39,756 Speaker 1: talked about things that are pretty unconventional to talk about 393 00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:43,516 Speaker 1: in country music right certainly at the time, like homosexuality, 394 00:23:43,876 --> 00:23:47,876 Speaker 1: recreational drug youth, not going to church. How did you 395 00:23:47,916 --> 00:23:52,676 Speaker 1: respond to that pushback. It's interesting because if you look 396 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:56,116 Speaker 1: at the history of country music, it is a genre 397 00:23:56,316 --> 00:24:00,916 Speaker 1: based on songs that tell stories, and sometimes stories aren't 398 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:07,276 Speaker 1: always positive or mainstream. And I mean, country music is 399 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:10,076 Speaker 1: supposed to be for people who are experiencing heartache, real 400 00:24:10,196 --> 00:24:14,716 Speaker 1: life struggle, jobs, divorced, heartbreak, you know, death like all this, 401 00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:19,916 Speaker 1: and so in my mind, you know, the most country 402 00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 1: thing you can do is to like just talk about 403 00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:25,796 Speaker 1: it all, you know. So I don't feel like I'm 404 00:24:25,796 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 1: doing anything or that I've been doing anything revolutionary. I mean, 405 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just doing my job as a 406 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:32,836 Speaker 1: songwriter to just take these lenses that I've been given 407 00:24:32,916 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: and just absorb all this stuff and it comes out 408 00:24:36,316 --> 00:24:37,996 Speaker 1: most of the time and kind of a country way. 409 00:24:38,036 --> 00:24:42,396 Speaker 1: I just can't help that, you know. But yeah, yeah, 410 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:45,516 Speaker 1: I found it very powerful that so many people want 411 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,356 Speaker 1: to put the rebellious rebel label on you and you 412 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:52,396 Speaker 1: consistently reject it. Like you said, I mean, is it 413 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 1: rebellious just to share your life story? Right? Right? Is 414 00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:59,356 Speaker 1: it rebellious? Right? Is it? What's so rebellious about championing 415 00:25:00,316 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 1: all different kinds of people? If that's rebellious? And I guess, 416 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:06,116 Speaker 1: hell yeah, okay, I'm a rebel. Count me in for 417 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 1: that matter. Was this a trait you had to cult 418 00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:11,156 Speaker 1: of date or does it just come naturally to you 419 00:25:11,316 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 1: to stand your ground in this way? I really think 420 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:16,396 Speaker 1: it comes naturally, Like I don't ever really remember it 421 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:20,316 Speaker 1: not being there. I mean, even my dad, so the 422 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 1: other day on the family thread, we were talking about 423 00:25:23,556 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: I was born early. I was like, I was a 424 00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:30,156 Speaker 1: PREMI so I was a month early. And he was like, 425 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 1: you were gonna do it on your terms from day one, 426 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 1: Like you you came early. You said this is what 427 00:25:37,876 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 1: we're doing and this is how I'm doing it. And 428 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:44,636 Speaker 1: it's always been like that. I guess, Well, it does 429 00:25:44,716 --> 00:25:46,916 Speaker 1: seem like you've You've also made a lot of intentional 430 00:25:46,996 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: choices within your life to stay independent and autonomous, right, 431 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:54,116 Speaker 1: Like you don't have the entourage that you see a 432 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,556 Speaker 1: lot of people carry around at them at your level. 433 00:25:57,956 --> 00:25:59,916 Speaker 1: I loved the story of how when you were traveling 434 00:25:59,916 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 1: with your band, you opted not to sleep in the 435 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: bedroom for the star but instead you grabbed a bunk 436 00:26:05,316 --> 00:26:08,516 Speaker 1: bed along with the rest of your band and your career. Yeah, 437 00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:12,716 Speaker 1: I wanted to be with everybody for some reason. I'm 438 00:26:12,796 --> 00:26:16,076 Speaker 1: just like because, like I said, I realized early on, 439 00:26:16,196 --> 00:26:20,156 Speaker 1: like wow, Okay, being an artist is very self self involved. 440 00:26:20,276 --> 00:26:24,596 Speaker 1: And I've seen examples in you know, in the industry 441 00:26:25,156 --> 00:26:29,076 Speaker 1: of people that like lost touch with reality a little bit, 442 00:26:29,156 --> 00:26:31,396 Speaker 1: and that's so sad to me. There's like nothing scarier. 443 00:26:31,476 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 1: So I just want to stay that way. I want 444 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:37,236 Speaker 1: to stay attached to real people, real emotion. Like I've 445 00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: tried really hard to stay tuned into that, you know 446 00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:43,396 Speaker 1: what I mean, or I try. I think anyway, do 447 00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 1: you feel in any way that this, you know, resolute 448 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: commitment to authenticity and being yourself has any downsides either 449 00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:55,796 Speaker 1: in your professional or personal life. Well, I mean you 450 00:26:55,836 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 1: can get You've got to check yourself because you can 451 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:01,276 Speaker 1: get so used to having it your way and like, 452 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:04,676 Speaker 1: you know, and speaking your mind about that that you 453 00:27:04,796 --> 00:27:07,516 Speaker 1: kind of can forget that there are other good ways too. 454 00:27:07,596 --> 00:27:10,996 Speaker 1: That just isn't It's not always your way, isn't always 455 00:27:11,036 --> 00:27:13,196 Speaker 1: the best, or just because an idea was yours doesn't 456 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: mean it's the best. So I think like reminding yourself 457 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:20,876 Speaker 1: that to trust other people's viewpoints, trust other people's collaboration 458 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:24,436 Speaker 1: and their advice, like is always good For somebody like 459 00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:26,556 Speaker 1: me that's very headstrong, it has learned to be very 460 00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:29,476 Speaker 1: self reliant. I can just simmered back a little bit 461 00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:33,716 Speaker 1: sometimes you know, it's like, come on, shut up. But ultimately, though, 462 00:27:33,796 --> 00:27:37,236 Speaker 1: if like at the end of the day, if it's interesting, 463 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:40,956 Speaker 1: I'm like, I have this like really like lightning fast 464 00:27:42,316 --> 00:27:45,476 Speaker 1: assessment just to know whether something is like right for 465 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:47,956 Speaker 1: me or not. And I don't like to waste time 466 00:27:47,996 --> 00:27:50,756 Speaker 1: like entertaining something you're going down a road. If I 467 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:52,316 Speaker 1: just know that it's just not at the end of 468 00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:54,556 Speaker 1: the day, it's just not me. I just don't really 469 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 1: even mess with it, you know. I think what's interesting 470 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 1: is that Golden Hour was such a deeply personal album, 471 00:28:02,316 --> 00:28:08,276 Speaker 1: but it also coincided with this incredibly warm, rich love story. 472 00:28:08,396 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 1: And I think it's one thing to be vulnerable and 473 00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: open when you're in a really good place. It's like 474 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:16,396 Speaker 1: next level to be open and vulnerable when you're not 475 00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 1: in a good place. Oh yeah, man, I think my 476 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:24,196 Speaker 1: whole life, I've I'm the older sister, you know, I've 477 00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,036 Speaker 1: been the performer, and I think like being that strong, 478 00:28:27,196 --> 00:28:31,516 Speaker 1: kind of like unfazed person was just kind of a 479 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:33,636 Speaker 1: go to for me. And I realized now as a 480 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:37,036 Speaker 1: older that that's the least strong thing that you can do. 481 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:39,796 Speaker 1: Is like, to break open in front of someone and 482 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:42,636 Speaker 1: really be vulnerable is one of the strongest things that 483 00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 1: you can do. And so this there was a period 484 00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: where I was like, I'm crumbling inside, I am not 485 00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 1: worthy of love. I suck at it. I'll never I 486 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 1: don't want to get attached anybody ever again, felt really 487 00:28:55,476 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 1: burned by it, you know what I mean, And so 488 00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:00,476 Speaker 1: I have to remind myself that those feelings are even 489 00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: more relatable to people than like this, you know, fuzzy 490 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:09,676 Speaker 1: like blissed out like Dopamine Love album. I mean that 491 00:29:09,676 --> 00:29:13,316 Speaker 1: that's more of a rarity to feel sadly than the other, 492 00:29:13,636 --> 00:29:15,316 Speaker 1: you know, So I think that it'll be even more 493 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:18,316 Speaker 1: relatable to people, you know. I went into this feeling like, 494 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like I'm probably I'm gonna be crying 495 00:29:21,396 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 1: in front of these people that I don't know super well, 496 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:27,636 Speaker 1: like whatever, but eventually at that at some point that 497 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 1: just goes out the window. And I mean I was 498 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:32,756 Speaker 1: just broken open and sobbing and heaving and just letting 499 00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 1: go of all this stagnant energy that you know, you 500 00:29:34,956 --> 00:29:39,476 Speaker 1: like I was holding onto, and that alone is like therapeutic. 501 00:29:39,596 --> 00:29:43,236 Speaker 1: You know. One thing that's interesting to me is what 502 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:48,236 Speaker 1: comes after golden hour nighttime and so like I'm in 503 00:29:48,276 --> 00:29:51,556 Speaker 1: a nighttime period and what's cool about that is that 504 00:29:52,756 --> 00:30:17,876 Speaker 1: there will be light again. At the end of our conversation, 505 00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: I asked Casey if there were any songs about change 506 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:24,596 Speaker 1: on her upcoming album. There's a song on there called 507 00:30:24,636 --> 00:30:28,676 Speaker 1: If I Was an Angel, and it's like it's basically saying, 508 00:30:28,716 --> 00:30:32,676 Speaker 1: if I was an angel, I wouldn't have to change 509 00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:34,516 Speaker 1: my ways. You wouldn't have to change your ways if 510 00:30:34,516 --> 00:30:38,276 Speaker 1: I was an angel. I mean, everything would be just 511 00:30:38,436 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 1: fine if I was an angel. If I was an angel, 512 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:50,076 Speaker 1: I'd never have to change. I'd never have to change. 513 00:30:50,876 --> 00:31:07,836 Speaker 1: But something's got to change. A slight change of plans 514 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:11,636 Speaker 1: is created an executive produced by me Maya Shunker. Big 515 00:31:11,756 --> 00:31:16,036 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Lola Board, 516 00:31:16,356 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia 517 00:31:21,076 --> 00:31:25,356 Speaker 1: Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound 518 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:29,996 Speaker 1: design and mix engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks 519 00:31:29,996 --> 00:31:32,636 Speaker 1: also to Louise Gara who wrote our theme song, and 520 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:36,476 Speaker 1: Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music from 521 00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:40,356 Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks to 522 00:31:40,436 --> 00:31:43,436 Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow a slight change of plans 523 00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:56,236 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. I really appreciate you 524 00:31:56,956 --> 00:32:02,196 Speaker 1: and your perspective. I love when an interview goes far 525 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 1: beyond an interview and it turns into a real conversation, 526 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:09,596 Speaker 1: and like, I crave that a lot, and I like 527 00:32:09,756 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 1: told you guys shit that I haven't literally haven't told 528 00:32:11,956 --> 00:32:12,556 Speaker 1: anyone else, so