WEBVTT - Ep. 06: Survivors From A Lost World

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<v Speaker 1>Since Americans encountered the beautiful Western prong horn, We've struggled

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<v Speaker 1>to understand an animal that looked like a gazelle but

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<v Speaker 1>couldn't jump, could outrun all its predators by twenty miles

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<v Speaker 1>per hour, yet like bison, was on the cliff of

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<v Speaker 1>extinction by nineteen hundred. I'm Dan Flores and this is

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<v Speaker 1>the American West, brought to you by velvet Buck. Still

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<v Speaker 1>in barrel. Velvet Buck arrives this summer, just in time

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<v Speaker 1>for the season that calls us home. A portion of

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<v Speaker 1>every bottle supports backcountry hunters and anglers to protect public lands,

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<v Speaker 1>waters and wildlife, enjoy responsibly survivors from a lost world.

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<v Speaker 1>From the accounts of all the Indians I have seen,

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<v Speaker 1>it is probable there may be a species of antelope

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<v Speaker 1>near the headwaters of Red River. Those words were written

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<v Speaker 1>by a young Virginia named Peter Custis, who from Louisiana

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<v Speaker 1>was taking a wistful look up the Red River of

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<v Speaker 1>the South in the year eighteen oh six. I'll have

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<v Speaker 1>much more to say in the next episode about Custis

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<v Speaker 1>and why he was on the edge of the West

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<v Speaker 1>that early in the nineteenth century. But the Louisiana purchase

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<v Speaker 1>had just doubled the size of the United States, and

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<v Speaker 1>Custus's wonderment about a likely African type antelope roaming the

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<v Speaker 1>horizontal Yellow Prairies was just the kind of story literary

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<v Speaker 1>Americans were hearing from their native Spanish and French predecessors

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<v Speaker 1>in the West. And while accounts of unicorns, giant horned serpents,

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<v Speaker 1>and mountains made of pure salt in the West were

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<v Speaker 1>like the early stories of mermaids in New England waters,

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<v Speaker 1>the antelopes that Custus heard about were very real. I've

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<v Speaker 1>long been drawn to pronghorns, the more accurate name for

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<v Speaker 1>America's gorgeous striped western antelopes, at least since driving a

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<v Speaker 1>dusty two track along the Powder River of Wyoming many

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<v Speaker 1>years ago and watching a young buck pronghorn running at

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<v Speaker 1>fifty miles an hour clocked by the speedometer alongside me.

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<v Speaker 1>Suddenly crossing the road in front of my bronco at speed.

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<v Speaker 1>He turned straight towards a barbed wire fence, but rather

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<v Speaker 1>than jumping over it, more quickly than I could register

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<v Speaker 1>the move, he turned his body sideways and darted between

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<v Speaker 1>the strands. The impact of thwanging explosion of white hairs

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<v Speaker 1>drifting in the wind as he trotted off, daydreaming of, well,

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<v Speaker 1>what do prong horns daydream about? As my panic for

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<v Speaker 1>him subsided, I decided I ought to try to find

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<v Speaker 1>out when Americans finally made it to the Great Plains

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<v Speaker 1>at the beginning of the nineteenth century. We call these

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<v Speaker 1>fabled animals antelopes for good reason, since in size, form,

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<v Speaker 1>and speed they resemble no other creatures quite so much

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<v Speaker 1>as the antelopes and gazelles of Africa. But prong horns

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<v Speaker 1>are not true antelopes. The antelope capri day antelope goats

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<v Speaker 1>emerged as a distinctly American family of animals roughly twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five million years ago, but paleontologists still don't agree on

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<v Speaker 1>their earlier provenance. They may be anciently related to the Servidae,

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<v Speaker 1>the deer family, but there are some modern biologists who

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<v Speaker 1>think pronghorns closest living relatives are in the family Giraffiday,

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<v Speaker 1>the giraffes whose legs resemble pronghorn legs. Whatever their origins

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<v Speaker 1>in ancient America, modern pronghorns are actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Just like us.

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<v Speaker 1>There are species that today represents the sole remaining survivor

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<v Speaker 1>of a large family of animals and thus a rarity

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<v Speaker 1>in nature. Fossil records in North America show that the

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<v Speaker 1>antelope Caapridae actually consisted of two major, big subfamilies. The

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<v Speaker 1>earlier of these subfamilies included several species of graceful, dainty

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<v Speaker 1>ungulates possessed of permanent, multi branched, antler like horns. This

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<v Speaker 1>group of creatures was extinct by the end of the

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<v Speaker 1>Miocene around five point three million years ago, but they

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<v Speaker 1>gave rise the other subfamily, which soon replaced them on

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<v Speaker 1>the grasslands that were then starting to emerge in Western America.

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<v Speaker 1>This subfamily of larger antelope goats were high speed runners,

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<v Speaker 1>but with quite different horns made around a deciduous sheath,

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<v Speaker 1>with some versions sporting four horns and others as many

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<v Speaker 1>as six. There was even a dwarfed four horned version

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<v Speaker 1>not much larger than a jack rabbit, so this quite

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<v Speaker 1>real version of a jackalope still spreaded across the Great

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<v Speaker 1>Plains as late as ten thousand years ago. Occasionally, four

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<v Speaker 1>horned fawns are still born to pronghorns as one genetic

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<v Speaker 1>reminder among a great number. As we're about to see

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<v Speaker 1>of the pronghorn's deep and varied past Antelo capra Americana.

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<v Speaker 1>Our present day pronghorn from this evolutionary family, dating back

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five million years, is now the last living representative

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<v Speaker 1>of evolution's wild genetic experimentation, with America's answer to the

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<v Speaker 1>gazelles of Africa. Back in nineteen ninety seven, a biologist

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<v Speaker 1>named John Byers, who had spent years studying pronghorn behavior

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<v Speaker 1>and natural history on western Montana's National Bison Range, stepped

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<v Speaker 1>up to answer most of my questions about the mysterious

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<v Speaker 1>nature of the American pronghorn. Buyers's provocative argument finally made

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<v Speaker 1>clear much about an animal that had seemed inexplicable to

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<v Speaker 1>its admirers. Many of us had noted the pronghorn's apparent disinclination.

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<v Speaker 1>It's probably not a true inability, but a disinclination to

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<v Speaker 1>jump fences. Why would a creature as fleet and athletic

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<v Speaker 1>prefer to go through barbed wire fences rather than over them?

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<v Speaker 1>With long suspected pronghorn evolution as the answer, and Buyers agreed,

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<v Speaker 1>a grasslands creature shaped by the open country niche it occupied,

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<v Speaker 1>pronghorns never experienced any selective pressures to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>jump obstacles that produced the kind of drama I'd witnessed

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<v Speaker 1>in Wyoming. But unfortunately, it could also become a maladaptation

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<v Speaker 1>in a fenced modern world, and one that played a

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<v Speaker 1>critical role in pronghorn history over the past one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty years. Pronghorns are one of only a handful

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<v Speaker 1>of great plain species that managed to survive the epic

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<v Speaker 1>extinction crash that ended the Pleisisain ten thousand years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>a best shary simplification that still stands as the most

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<v Speaker 1>profound ecological alteration in America since the extinction of the

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<v Speaker 1>dinosaurs in the biography of a species like us or

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<v Speaker 1>prong horns. How however, the Pleistocene was only a few

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<v Speaker 1>heart beats in the past. So what if much about

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<v Speaker 1>the behavior of modern prong horns has little to do

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<v Speaker 1>with their present circumstances.

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<v Speaker 3>As we find them.

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<v Speaker 1>The primary predators of prong horns for the past ten

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years we know, have been wolves and coyotes, neither

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<v Speaker 1>of which is capable flat out of running much more

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<v Speaker 1>than about forty to forty five miles an hour. Prong Horns,

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<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, are the ferraris of the American

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<v Speaker 1>natural world. Their delicate bones in frames and remarkably low

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<v Speaker 1>body fat keep them light, while broad nostrils and a

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<v Speaker 1>huge windpipe deliver turbocharged oxygen to their outsize lungs and

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<v Speaker 1>heart pedal to the metal. They top eighty five kilometers

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<v Speaker 1>per hour at a dead run, some fifty five miles

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<v Speaker 1>an hour for the one hundred and twenty pound males

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<v Speaker 1>and as high as sixty five to seventy miles per

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<v Speaker 1>hour for the low females. That's as fast as an

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<v Speaker 1>African cheetah. Prong Horns can also run at ninety percent

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<v Speaker 1>of top end for more than two miles. Like horses,

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<v Speaker 1>to detect predators at great distances, they too evolve gigantic eyes.

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<v Speaker 3>Prong Horn behavior features other oddities.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Thompson's gazelles and other African ugults pursued by big cats.

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<v Speaker 1>Prong Horns have a powerful inclination towards a form of

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<v Speaker 1>grouping known as the selfish herd, with much of their

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<v Speaker 1>expression of dominance and rank focused on their physical position.

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<v Speaker 1>Inside these herd groups, the lower ranking, less dominant animals

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<v Speaker 1>get pushed to the outer margins, where if prong horns

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<v Speaker 1>were on the African veild, the low ranking members would

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<v Speaker 1>be in much greater danger from predatory attacks. But as adults,

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<v Speaker 1>American prong horns have no predators at all because of

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<v Speaker 1>the impossible speed. Once they're grown, pronghorns are subject to

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<v Speaker 1>predation only as fonts. If a prong worn fund survives

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<v Speaker 1>to six or eight months of age, it will join

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<v Speaker 1>all other surviving fauns in living to the ripe old

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<v Speaker 1>age of eleven or twelve years old. Yet adult pronghorns

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<v Speaker 1>still persist in grouping and still fight for position in

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<v Speaker 1>those groups, as if predation somehow mattered to them. So why,

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<v Speaker 1>in a world where gray wolves and coyotes and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>occasionally a mountain lion are their threats, do prong horns

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<v Speaker 1>express so much protective excess. The question John Byers posed

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<v Speaker 1>then was this, what if most of their physical characteristics

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<v Speaker 1>and behavior are actually adaptations to a lost world that

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<v Speaker 1>winked out around them ten thousand years ago, leaving pronghorns

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<v Speaker 1>still living out their existence among us reacting to a

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<v Speaker 1>world of ghosts. The fascinating question, then, is whether the

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<v Speaker 1>whole suite of pronghorn behaviors, and not just their lack

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<v Speaker 1>of jumping ability has to do with the lost world

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<v Speaker 1>of the Pleistocene Great Plains. Prog Warns emerged in their

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<v Speaker 1>modern form at a time when the American Planes was

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<v Speaker 1>the scene of one of the great assemblages of savannah

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<v Speaker 1>step creatures anywhere on Earth, a more diverse collection of

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<v Speaker 1>animals than present today in the Serengetti or the Massaimara.

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<v Speaker 1>Along with the elephants and longhorned bison and enormous herds

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<v Speaker 1>of horses, along with bands of numerous types of camels

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<v Speaker 1>and deer, and of course elk and prong horns, the

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<v Speaker 1>Pleistocene planes featured an array of truly formidable predators that

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<v Speaker 1>hunted and scavenged. Among all those millions of ungulates, prog

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<v Speaker 1>Warns then spent the better part of four million years

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<v Speaker 1>perfecting their ability to survive. Where large and fast predators

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<v Speaker 1>looked hungrily at them over bright teeth. There were grass

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<v Speaker 1>aisle active and aggressive short faced bears. The smilodons are

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<v Speaker 1>sabertoothed cats that attacked mammoth calves, a steadily changing lineup

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<v Speaker 1>of wolf and coyote packs. There were jaguars and cougars

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<v Speaker 1>along with the steppe lion, a far larger version of

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<v Speaker 1>the African lion, as predators of the fastest grazers, the

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<v Speaker 1>horses and prong horns. There was a slender, limbed lion

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<v Speaker 1>size running cat known as the scimitar cat, along with

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<v Speaker 1>a particularly rapid and legging American hunting hyena. And there

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<v Speaker 1>were two species of large American false cheetahs, cats from

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<v Speaker 1>the same evolutionary line that produced cougars, but with elongated,

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<v Speaker 1>curved spines, long legs, and wide nostrils for gulping air

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<v Speaker 1>in open country pursuit are in rock slide ambushes. These

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<v Speaker 1>vanished creatures of the ancient planes, at least so biologists

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<v Speaker 1>like Buyers now argue, however long ago they passed the

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<v Speaker 1>veil of extinction, or why pronghorns seem mysterious and almost

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<v Speaker 1>alien to us now, why they struck early observers like

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<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark as possessing a speed that resemble more

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<v Speaker 1>the flight of birds than anything else. Pronghorns are at

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<v Speaker 1>once breathtakingly beautiful yet outrageously overbuilt relics that have outlasted

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<v Speaker 1>the conditions that created them. They offer almost our only

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<v Speaker 1>remaining glimpse of the American Pleistocene. Like most wild ungulates

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<v Speaker 1>then are now, pronghorns follow a yearly routine that varies

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<v Speaker 1>considerably by the seasons. At the conclusion of the September rut,

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<v Speaker 1>the exhausted bucks, which would once have been prime targets

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<v Speaker 1>for predators in that condition, disguised themselves by mimicking the females.

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<v Speaker 1>They shed the outer husk of their horns, and they

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<v Speaker 1>joined the female herds. Since the Pleistocene, winter has been

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<v Speaker 1>a time of migration for northern pronghorns. A few years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>with a friend who lives in Jackson Hole, I photographed

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<v Speaker 1>the famous Sublet pronghorn herd, which summers in Grand Teta

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<v Speaker 1>National Park but still migrates more than two hundred miles

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<v Speaker 1>south to near Green River, Wyoming in winter. This inclination

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<v Speaker 1>to migrate before severe winter storms was adaptive in the wild,

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<v Speaker 1>but couple with their inclination not to jump obstacles, ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>reproduced tragedy in the late nineteenth century, when legendary winters

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<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen eighties sent pronghorns southward by the thousands

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<v Speaker 1>into a new world of barbed wire in the spring.

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<v Speaker 1>From a year old until they're three, young pronghorn bucks

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<v Speaker 1>segregate themselves into bachelor bands and spend most of their

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<v Speaker 1>time in all male groups. There, they express group position

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<v Speaker 1>dominance just as females do, but they also spar and

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<v Speaker 1>practice moves they will later use in earnest. Around three

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<v Speaker 1>years of age, pronghorn males become solitary for most of

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<v Speaker 1>the spring and summer, during which time, at least in

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<v Speaker 1>most pronghorn country, they set up territories of perhaps one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty acres whose perimeter they sent mark and

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<v Speaker 1>will use to cloister a harem of females to hide

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<v Speaker 1>from other males during the rut. In other circumstances, male

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<v Speaker 1>pronghorns protect harems of females, but without defending a territory.

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<v Speaker 1>Rather than our prime resource location, pronghorn territories actually seem

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<v Speaker 1>to be merely tactical space for defending females. Pronghorn bucks

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<v Speaker 1>fight over females too, in violent, quick and quite often mortal,

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<v Speaker 1>as high as fifteen percent of the encounter's fights. Reproduction

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<v Speaker 1>success is the prime directive, and some prong horned bucks

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<v Speaker 1>win the lottery. Others spend their entire lives without ever

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<v Speaker 1>siring any offspring at all. Then there is female selective behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>Female prong horns, which reach sexual maturity at eighteen months

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<v Speaker 1>of age and give birth every spring for the rest

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<v Speaker 1>of their lives, find themselves in harems that male pronghorns

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<v Speaker 1>judiciously protect during the brief September mating season. During the rut,

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<v Speaker 1>females repeatedly break away from their cloistered harems, however, joining

0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.520
<v Speaker 1>the other harems of other males and inviting males to.

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 3>Compete for them. What exactly are they looking for?

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Apparently they're setting up contests of stamina, speed, and resolve

0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:04.040
<v Speaker 1>but between various males and observing the outcome before surrendering

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:08.040
<v Speaker 1>themselves up to be bred by the winner, the pronghorn

0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 1>male who demonstrates his genetic fitness by running faster and

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:17.679
<v Speaker 1>longer than his rivals. But if you're already almost twenty

0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.440
<v Speaker 1>miles an hour faster than your fastest predators, why would

0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.280
<v Speaker 1>females set up games of natural selection and choose who

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:29.920
<v Speaker 1>will impregnate them based on fitness as demonstrated by speed,

0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Because apparently you never know when American cheetahs are going

0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.400
<v Speaker 1>to show up on the planes again. Prong worn females

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:44.199
<v Speaker 1>have evolved another strategy that's interesting with respect to what

0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 1>it says about both past and present. After a remarkably

0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.719
<v Speaker 1>long gestation period of some two hundred and fifty two days,

0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:57.600
<v Speaker 1>they give birth not to single offspring, but to litters,

0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.960
<v Speaker 1>specifically litters of two fawns every spring, and they do

0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:08.000
<v Speaker 1>this throughout their reproductive lives. Twining, as well as the

0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:12.359
<v Speaker 1>week's long hiding of fawns which lie motionless and silent

0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.720
<v Speaker 1>for most of the day, are clearly responses to serious predation.

0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.399
<v Speaker 3>They too, probably.

0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Emerge as adaptations to the distant past, when pronghorns lived

0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:24.919
<v Speaker 1>in a world where they.

0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.159
<v Speaker 2>Were prey for three or four different predators.

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.320
<v Speaker 1>Today, it means that coyotes, the principal predators of pronghorn

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.320
<v Speaker 1>fawns for probably the last million years, are able to

0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 1>pull down as much as fifty percent of a pronghorn

0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 1>fawn crop without appreciably affecting pronghorn populations with litters, and

0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 1>with their extremely high adult survivability rates, pronghorns were anciently

0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.399
<v Speaker 1>prepared to survive the culling of even so efficient a

0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:01.200
<v Speaker 1>predator of fawns as coyotes. But a mother pronghorn will

0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:03.920
<v Speaker 1>attack and fight a coyote to keep it from her faunds.

0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Pronghorn bucks don't defend faunds. Some biologists argue that this

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:13.639
<v Speaker 1>is another leftover behavior from the Pleistocene, when fast predators

0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:17.720
<v Speaker 1>scattered groups of pronghorns across wide territories, and a male

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.359
<v Speaker 1>pronghorn thus could never be sure that a fawn it

0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:26.840
<v Speaker 1>defended was its own. As cutschewing rumnants capable of processing

0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 1>forbes and shrubs, pronghorns demonstrate yet another adaptation to the

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:36.800
<v Speaker 1>ancient savannah ecology of Western America. For maybe four hundred

0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:42.119
<v Speaker 1>thousand years, pronghorns had been evolving a mutualistic relationship with

0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:47.480
<v Speaker 1>the bison herds. Bison i had survived the Pleistocene extinctions

0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.719
<v Speaker 1>and had increased dramatically in their wake, in numbers that

0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:56.920
<v Speaker 1>likely range somewhere between twenty and thirty million animals, depending

0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:01.320
<v Speaker 1>on climate cycles. So waves of bison and waves of

0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:08.480
<v Speaker 1>pronghorns cropping the same country produced mutually beneficial results. Cropping

0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.879
<v Speaker 1>the grasses and ignoring the often poisonous species like local weed,

0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:18.960
<v Speaker 1>rabbit brush, and sagebrush. Bison grazing encouraged forbes and shrubs

0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 1>in their wake, coming along after the bison herds and

0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:28.080
<v Speaker 1>concentrating instead on the flowering plants and shrubs. Pronghorn browsing

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:33.440
<v Speaker 1>shifted the advantage back to the grasses. Both preferred succulent

0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.800
<v Speaker 1>vegetation sprouting up after recent fires, which was a fact

0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 1>that Native people long noted. So deep time history created

0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 1>an entirely unique situation for pronghorn antelope. Since pronghorns had

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.439
<v Speaker 1>out survived almost all their predators, had ended up with

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.199
<v Speaker 1>few competitors for the often toxic shrubs and forbes they ate.

0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:04.280
<v Speaker 1>We're read everywhere there were vast horizontal planes, and they

0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:09.720
<v Speaker 1>increased into the millions. The writer Ernest Thompson's Seaton famously

0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 1>estimated that in eighteen hundred, the moment in time when

0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.280
<v Speaker 1>pronghorns were in the verge of discovery by formal Western science,

0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 1>there were as many as forty million of them in

0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>the West. More recent estimates have advanced original figures of

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 1>something like fifteen million.

0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>What we can.

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Probably say is that on the Great Plains, where there

0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:36.879
<v Speaker 1>ranges overlap most precisely, pronghorn numbers very likely matched those

0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:37.840
<v Speaker 1>of buffalo.

0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.920
<v Speaker 3>We've long thought of the historic era.

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Great Plans as the Great Bison Belt. In truth, it

0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:49.639
<v Speaker 1>was just as much the Great pronghorn Savannah. Their range

0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.520
<v Speaker 1>doesn't appear to advanced eastward beyond the ninety seventh meridian,

0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.119
<v Speaker 1>though at least in places like Texas and Mexico, and

0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.400
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't seem to have gone beyond the ninety third already,

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:04.640
<v Speaker 1>and farther north in Iowa and Minnesota. But they were

0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.880
<v Speaker 1>found westward all the way to Baja California and into

0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:13.919
<v Speaker 1>eastern Oregon and Washington. Southward on the continent, prong horns

0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.640
<v Speaker 1>were able to colonize the desert grasslands of Mexico all

0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.840
<v Speaker 1>the way down to the vicinity of Mexico City at

0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:25.680
<v Speaker 1>twenty degrees latitude, considerably south of where bison ever ventured.

0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Although prong horns can derive adequate water from the plants

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.680
<v Speaker 1>they browse in optimal wet years, they do need to

0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:35.840
<v Speaker 1>drink about three and a half quarts of water a

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 1>day during hot weather, which limited their numbers in the

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:47.439
<v Speaker 1>Great Basin the Mohave, Chihuahuan, and Sonoran deserts. Abundant and

0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.280
<v Speaker 1>widespread as they were, prong worns attracted the attention of

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Indian hunters from the very beginning of human arrival. There

0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.679
<v Speaker 1>a butchered prong horn remains in some of the Clovis

0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.880
<v Speaker 1>and Folksome archaeola logical sites, so at least some paleo

0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:07.200
<v Speaker 1>hunters did take the occasional pronghorn to vary a diet

0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:08.840
<v Speaker 1>of mammoth and bison cuts.

0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:11.320
<v Speaker 3>But it took fifteen or twenty.

0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Pronghorns to equal the caloric possibilities of a single giant bison,

0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.080
<v Speaker 1>and since prong worn flesh was so very lean, prog

0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:23.200
<v Speaker 1>worns commonly ranked well down the list of pursued prey

0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:28.720
<v Speaker 1>among Southwestern peoples. In fact, pronghorns ranked lower than rabbits,

0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.600
<v Speaker 1>even though it took sixteen jack rabbits to match the

0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:35.879
<v Speaker 1>edible flesh of a prong worn Native people, from hundreds

0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:39.040
<v Speaker 1>of generations of experience with pronghorns knew how to exploit

0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:43.800
<v Speaker 1>their weaknesses and utilize pronghorned leather horns and hoofs for

0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 1>a variety of purposes. One aspect of pronghorn natural history

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 1>that made them vulnerable to Indian hunters was their disinclination

0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.680
<v Speaker 1>to leave their home ranges. Parts of the West yet

0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:01.520
<v Speaker 1>show fading evidence of ancient pronghorn correct such as the

0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Fort Bridger trap site in southwestern Wyoming, where local herds

0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.560
<v Speaker 1>evidently were enclosed and pushed to run in circles until

0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:14.719
<v Speaker 1>they were exhausted and could be clubbed to death. Another

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:19.800
<v Speaker 1>technique involved v shaped pairs of fence wings, often miles long,

0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:24.639
<v Speaker 1>made from piled up sagebrush, that sent stampeded pronghorns into

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:29.120
<v Speaker 1>corrals or pits. There are also references from a variety

0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:32.960
<v Speaker 1>of sources of horse mounted planes indians engaging in the

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of pronghorns surround They often used for bison, again

0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.040
<v Speaker 1>with the goal of getting a pronghorn band to run

0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 1>in circles until the spent and stumbling animals could be

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 1>ridden down on horseback. According to the writer Richard Irving Dodge,

0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:54.199
<v Speaker 1>when pronghorns collected into the thousands in wintertime, some tribes

0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:58.919
<v Speaker 1>even used rifles in pronghorn hunts from horseback, reacting as

0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:03.399
<v Speaker 1>if pursued by editors. The antelope crowded together in their fright,

0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Dodge wrote, and thus were easily shot down. When bison

0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:12.080
<v Speaker 1>were scarce, planes hunters preferred antelope to deer because you

0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.960
<v Speaker 1>could take an entire herd of prong horns at once.

0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:19.920
<v Speaker 1>Because local herds could be completely extirpated, by mass techniques.

0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Like these, Indian hunters often spared some animals in order

0:25:24.240 --> 0:25:29.200
<v Speaker 1>to preserve the herd stock, whatever the technique. Unlike bison

0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:33.240
<v Speaker 1>or elk, prong horns butchered out as all protein and

0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:37.199
<v Speaker 1>very little precious fat. Their lean body mass may be

0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 1>the reason no tribe ever bothered to domesticate prong horns,

0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:49.800
<v Speaker 1>which are actually easier to tame than any African antelope.

0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Among Europeans, prong horns were first encountered by numerous Spanish

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.159
<v Speaker 1>travelers on the Southern Plains and in California, where they

0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:01.679
<v Speaker 1>were known as barndos, and by French travelers to the

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Great Plains, who called them cool de Blanc. Francisco Hernandez's

0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:12.960
<v Speaker 1>sixteen fifty one Natural History of Mexico described and even

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:18.159
<v Speaker 1>provided an initial illustration of the western pronghorn, But like

0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:22.480
<v Speaker 1>so many charismatic animals from the American West, pronghorns did

0:26:22.520 --> 0:26:25.840
<v Speaker 1>not come to the official notice of Enlightenment age science

0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:29.600
<v Speaker 1>until the time of the Jeffersonian expeditions into the New

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Louisiana Purchase. Meriwether Lewis and William Clark collected the type

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:38.080
<v Speaker 1>specimen of the species for Western science in eighteen o five,

0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:41.919
<v Speaker 1>Lewis and Clark made more than two hundred pronghorn entries

0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:45.440
<v Speaker 1>in their journals, although they found the animals like elk

0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:50.400
<v Speaker 1>and deer far less numerous west of the continental divide.

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Back east, George Ord of Philadelphia Naturalists and Ornithologists, who

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:58.480
<v Speaker 1>was working up many of the Lewis and Clark specimens,

0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:02.600
<v Speaker 1>published a science to description and the Lenaean name for

0:27:02.640 --> 0:27:07.840
<v Speaker 1>the pronghorn in eighteen eighteen. Ord recognized that, despite their

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:13.240
<v Speaker 1>similarities to African antelopes and gazelle's, pronghorns were actually unrelated

0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:16.919
<v Speaker 1>to any existing family of animals that he could find.

0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:22.119
<v Speaker 1>So Antilope capra day the family name he devised, and

0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:26.639
<v Speaker 1>Antilope capra the genus Ord fashion for an animal that

0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:30.200
<v Speaker 1>seemed to combine the traits of both antelopes and goats

0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:34.680
<v Speaker 1>have stood ever since. One of the best selling books

0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:37.760
<v Speaker 1>of the West in the nineteenth century was the trader

0:27:37.960 --> 0:27:42.560
<v Speaker 1>naturalist Josiah Gregg's Commerce of the Prairies, first published in

0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:46.320
<v Speaker 1>eighteen forty six. This is what greg had to say

0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:52.639
<v Speaker 1>about the pronghorn. That species of gazelle, known as the antelope,

0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:57.440
<v Speaker 1>is very numerous upon the high plains, This beautiful animal

0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:02.040
<v Speaker 1>is most remarkable for its fleetness, not bounding like the deer,

0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:06.320
<v Speaker 1>but skimming over the ground as though upon skates. The

0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:10.840
<v Speaker 1>flesh of the antelope is but little esteemed, though consequently

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:14.120
<v Speaker 1>no great efforts are made to take them. Being as

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:18.199
<v Speaker 1>wild as fleet the hunting of them is very difficult

0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:23.840
<v Speaker 1>as well. The commercial market hunt of wildlife in the West,

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.880
<v Speaker 1>though and more of that to come in future episodes,

0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:30.840
<v Speaker 1>had been underway in earnest since at least the eighteen twenties,

0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:35.000
<v Speaker 1>but so long as beaver lasted or bison roamed in

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:39.240
<v Speaker 1>numbers enough to produce robes, hides, and tongs, and as

0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>long as wolves and coyotes remained targets of traps and

0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:47.960
<v Speaker 1>poisoned bait, the market hunt left pronghorns largely alone.

0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:50.240
<v Speaker 3>Prong Horns had already reaped.

0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:53.800
<v Speaker 1>The whirlwind in mining areas like California, where they were

0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:58.000
<v Speaker 1>corralled and killed to feed miners, but was not until

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 1>bison numbers began to drop that prong horns finally started

0:29:02.280 --> 0:29:06.560
<v Speaker 1>to attract attention in the slaughter of Western animals for profit.

0:29:07.840 --> 0:29:11.440
<v Speaker 1>With more than five thousand professional hunters in the West

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 1>in the eighteen seventies and eighteen eighties. Once every last

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:19.520
<v Speaker 1>buffalo had been pursued to ground, hunters looked to see

0:29:19.720 --> 0:29:22.520
<v Speaker 1>what they might turn their guns on for a final

0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:26.960
<v Speaker 1>killing spree. Big horned sheep in the bad lands lasted

0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:30.480
<v Speaker 1>only a handful of years, and those in the mountains

0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:35.000
<v Speaker 1>only a handful more. Elk and even deer had mostly

0:29:35.160 --> 0:29:38.640
<v Speaker 1>fled the open country by that time to the safety

0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of the mountains. In the eighteen eighties, only two primary

0:29:43.080 --> 0:29:48.120
<v Speaker 1>charismatic animals remained on the Great Plains, wild horses and pronghorns.

0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 1>The horses would get caught and sold overseas buyers whenever

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:56.720
<v Speaker 1>Europeans were involved in wars her Brother the nineteen twenties,

0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 1>get rounded up as a source of dog food for

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:02.600
<v Speaker 1>the American pet industry, or they were simply shot down

0:30:02.600 --> 0:30:06.560
<v Speaker 1>by cowboys as nuisances. But prong horns had evolved on

0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:11.000
<v Speaker 1>the Great Plains, they had survived fearsome predators, they'd lived

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:16.120
<v Speaker 1>through the pleistosine extinctions. Erasing them from America was going

0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 1>to require some effort. Naturally, the market hunt, though, was

0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:24.200
<v Speaker 1>up to the task. There were multiple causes for what

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.360
<v Speaker 1>began to happen to pronghorns homesteading steadily tore up the

0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 1>prairie and prong horn habitat. Ranchers overstocked the planes with

0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 1>cattle and sheep that undermined vegetation. Prong horns depended on

0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:40.640
<v Speaker 1>the new barbed wire fences, demarketing a West that was

0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:44.600
<v Speaker 1>fast becoming private property went straight to the prong horns

0:30:44.680 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 1>evolutionary weakness, fences preventing the herds from migrating and from

0:30:49.840 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 1>escaping winter blizzards. Without bison, the trump down the snow,

0:30:54.600 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 1>prong horns couldn't get at the plants they ate anymore,

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 1>add fences to block their migrations, and the horrific Western

0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:07.080
<v Speaker 1>winners of the eighteen eighties devastated them, and an event

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:11.400
<v Speaker 1>that became all too common. Homesteaders in the Texas Panhandle

0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:15.080
<v Speaker 1>and the winner of eighteen eighty two discovered more than

0:31:15.240 --> 0:31:19.280
<v Speaker 1>fifteen hundred prong horns blown like a deck of cards

0:31:19.320 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 1>against a curb, trapped and piled many feet high against

0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:28.000
<v Speaker 1>a barbed wire fence. Even hard bitten homesheads were horrified

0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:34.160
<v Speaker 1>by that. Then there was the market hunt. The generally

0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:37.520
<v Speaker 1>poor opinion of pronghorned leather and meat had long kept

0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:39.840
<v Speaker 1>prong horns out of the rifle sights of men who

0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:43.560
<v Speaker 1>killed animals for money. But with everything else gone and

0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:47.800
<v Speaker 1>a deathly silence beginning to fall across the West, market

0:31:47.880 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 1>hunters finally turned their rifles on prong horns, and the

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 1>story became all too familiar. What had once been millions

0:31:56.360 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 1>of wild creatures fell for a pittance in return. Winter

0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:04.800
<v Speaker 1>concentrations of prong horns around the Black Hills got slaughtered.

0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.120
<v Speaker 1>In two or three seasons, a hunter in California killed

0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:11.560
<v Speaker 1>five thousand of them for their hides. When a drought

0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.720
<v Speaker 1>drove almost all the prong horns in the area to

0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:19.200
<v Speaker 1>a few remaining water holes, hunters, desperate to keep their

0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:23.920
<v Speaker 1>market lifestyle going, sold pronghorn meat to butchers in Kansas

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:28.520
<v Speaker 1>for two to three cents a pound. In eighteen seventy three,

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:33.560
<v Speaker 1>an Iowa firm shipped some thirty two thousand pronghorn and

0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:37.960
<v Speaker 1>deer skins via railroad from the plains, barely making a

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:42.840
<v Speaker 1>dollar apiece for all the effort of hunting, skinning, and shipping.

0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:49.400
<v Speaker 1>When George byrd Grennell, the Great Conservationist, alerted future President

0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:53.280
<v Speaker 1>Teddy Roosevelt to the impact of market hunting, a step

0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:55.720
<v Speaker 1>that led to the formation of the Boon and Crocket

0:32:55.720 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 1>Club to protect American game animals. One of the victims

0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:04.080
<v Speaker 1>Grenelle mentioned was the pronghorn that put prong horns before

0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:08.240
<v Speaker 1>an influential group, but by the time Roosevelt was president,

0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 1>pronghorn numbers had dropped frighteningly low. In eighteen hundred, there

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>may have been fifteen million prong horns in the West,

0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:22.000
<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned, but in eighteen ninety nine, biologist Vernon Bailey,

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:26.640
<v Speaker 1>crossing one hundred miles of the Texas Panhandle, counted a

0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:30.200
<v Speaker 1>mere thirty two in what had once lay near the

0:33:30.240 --> 0:33:34.440
<v Speaker 1>center of their range. A decade later, the New York

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Zoological Society estimated that fewer than five thousand of these

0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:44.040
<v Speaker 1>twenty five million year old natives of America were left.

0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Rescuing them from almost certain extinction required cooperation between the

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:55.920
<v Speaker 1>states in the West, which Roosevelt facilitated, along with pronghorn

0:33:56.000 --> 0:34:00.280
<v Speaker 1>stocking in Yellowstone and on the National Wildlife Refuge. Is

0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:05.200
<v Speaker 1>that Teddy Roosevelt was creating. Two lucky breaks helped the pronghorns, though,

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.720
<v Speaker 1>and one was the refuges which the Boone and Crocket

0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Club and the American Bison Society stocked with remnant animals.

0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:18.200
<v Speaker 1>The other break was evolutionary good fortune. In a nation

0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 1>where economics trumped everything as four rather than grass eaters,

0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:29.600
<v Speaker 1>prong horns didn't compete with cattle and only marginally with sheep,

0:34:30.280 --> 0:34:36.920
<v Speaker 1>so Western livestock associations, if grudgingly, became tolerant of them. Today,

0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:40.520
<v Speaker 1>the United States and Canadian population of prong horns hovers

0:34:40.600 --> 0:34:44.440
<v Speaker 1>around seven hundred thousand animals, half of them in the

0:34:44.480 --> 0:34:48.960
<v Speaker 1>state of Wyoming, with another twelve hundred in Mexico. A

0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:52.520
<v Speaker 1>series of highway overpasses now allows some of them to

0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:56.000
<v Speaker 1>continue their winter migrations, and as one of the original

0:34:56.080 --> 0:35:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Western animals tapped for sport hunting, pronghorns are now privileged

0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 1>in a way that a lot of other creatures are not.

0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:08.360
<v Speaker 1>I am still transfixed, though by a moment in Western

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:13.200
<v Speaker 1>history I once came across when among all Western animals

0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:19.840
<v Speaker 1>three ancient Americans, wild horses, coyotes, and pronghorns were the

0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:25.479
<v Speaker 1>last holdouts remaining. This was in April of eighteen eighty four,

0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:29.080
<v Speaker 1>and it appeared in a letter written by a cowboy

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:33.600
<v Speaker 1>named George Wolforth, who was riding his horse up over

0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:37.640
<v Speaker 1>the rim of West Texas Yellow House Canyon, about where

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:42.360
<v Speaker 1>the city of Lubbock now stands. Wolforth described a scene

0:35:42.680 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 1>that seared itself into his memory and into mine too.

0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:51.759
<v Speaker 1>As far as we could see, he wrote, there were

0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:56.360
<v Speaker 1>only antelopes and mustangs grazing in the waving.

0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Sea of grass.

0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:03.080
<v Speaker 1>The whole tableau, he went on, rendered misty and unreal

0:36:03.600 --> 0:36:08.719
<v Speaker 1>by the mirage that hovered over the plains. These were

0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:12.600
<v Speaker 1>the sole survivors of the big animals of the Great Plains.

0:36:13.239 --> 0:36:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Almost all the rest had suffered extinction or extirpation, or

0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:22.240
<v Speaker 1>had been driven into the mountains across the previous thirty years.

0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:27.799
<v Speaker 1>But even this moment was brief, merely a romantic thing

0:36:27.840 --> 0:37:02.440
<v Speaker 1>to hold onto in the mind, truly a mirage.

0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:50.120
<v Speaker 4>Dan, I think one of the things when you read

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:55.920
<v Speaker 4>primary sources from the Lewis and Clark era forward, a

0:36:55.920 --> 0:37:00.200
<v Speaker 4>lot of times I'm struck by animals not being where

0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:02.440
<v Speaker 4>I expect them to be, or at least where I

0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.080
<v Speaker 4>wouldn't have expected them to be before I knew better.

0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:08.759
<v Speaker 4>But grizzlies and salt Dakota grizzlies out on the plains,

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:14.400
<v Speaker 4>big horns dominating Elk country, Elk out on the prairie.

0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.239
<v Speaker 4>You know, it seems like they're all familiar animals, but

0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:22.319
<v Speaker 4>there's always sort of there's like something about it that

0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:26.440
<v Speaker 4>doesn't line up with our present day awareness of the

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:30.719
<v Speaker 4>animals around us. But pronghorn are the exception to that

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:35.600
<v Speaker 4>general rule. And here I think you yeah, I mean

0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:37.680
<v Speaker 4>a prong horn is a prong horn is a prong horn,

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:43.400
<v Speaker 4>And I guess it's it's striking to me, but you

0:37:43.480 --> 0:37:46.799
<v Speaker 4>make a strong case why it's deeply rooted in their

0:37:46.840 --> 0:37:50.120
<v Speaker 4>genetics and in their evolutionary history.

0:37:51.440 --> 0:37:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is.

0:37:52.239 --> 0:37:56.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, these are animals that come from specifically from

0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:00.400
<v Speaker 1>North American evolution for twenty five million years, and so,

0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:04.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, and prong horns are like us, they're the

0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:09.520
<v Speaker 1>sole remaining representative of what was at one time really

0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:13.280
<v Speaker 1>big in their case, a couple of different subfamilies of animals,

0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:16.759
<v Speaker 1>many of them with multiple horns, and some of them

0:38:16.760 --> 0:38:21.319
<v Speaker 1>with horns unlike the present day animal that weren't deciduous

0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 1>but were solid like antlers. And so it's a it's

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of a remarkable thing to me. The most remarkable

0:38:32.000 --> 0:38:37.120
<v Speaker 1>aspect of the prong horns story is how long we

0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 1>tried to figure them out. You know, I mean, we

0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.680
<v Speaker 1>just couldn't quite. I mean, everybody knew, okay, they won't

0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:46.960
<v Speaker 1>jump fences, and that's probably because they evolved on the planes.

0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:50.359
<v Speaker 1>But you know, on the other hand, Thompson's gazelles, you know,

0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:54.479
<v Speaker 1>jumped like crazy in Africa, showing I think what they're

0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:58.799
<v Speaker 1>doing is starting to show their fitness, so that the

0:38:58.880 --> 0:39:02.440
<v Speaker 1>cheetah that's after the goes after one that's stumbling along

0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:07.560
<v Speaker 1>or something. But prong horns never they never developed that ability,

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:14.160
<v Speaker 1>and the inability or disinclination to jump over things really

0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:18.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of set them in a bad situation when the

0:39:18.640 --> 0:39:22.880
<v Speaker 1>West started being basically covered with barbed wire fences because

0:39:22.880 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of them ended up, you know, because they

0:39:24.719 --> 0:39:27.279
<v Speaker 1>migrated in front of winter storms. That was another thing

0:39:27.320 --> 0:39:30.680
<v Speaker 1>about their long term evolution that they would pile up

0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:34.400
<v Speaker 1>against those fences. But you know that biologist John Buyers,

0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.839
<v Speaker 1>who about twenty five years ago was working on prong

0:39:37.840 --> 0:39:44.239
<v Speaker 1>horns in the Montana National Bison Refuge. I mean, he's

0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 1>the one who kind of figured all this out, all

0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:52.560
<v Speaker 1>these inexplicable parts of their natural history, you know, starting

0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:55.240
<v Speaker 1>with one of the damn things, why are they capable

0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:59.000
<v Speaker 1>of running sixty five miles an hour when anything that's

0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.439
<v Speaker 1>chasing them can't run more than about forty or forty five.

0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:07.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what's the explanation for the excessive speed? And

0:40:07.440 --> 0:40:09.719
<v Speaker 1>what he came up with, of course, was that with

0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:12.239
<v Speaker 1>prong horns, we're getting to witness and it's really kind

0:40:12.280 --> 0:40:14.400
<v Speaker 1>of the only animal that we're getting to see do

0:40:14.520 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 1>this we're getting to witness applies to seeing animal that's

0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:22.920
<v Speaker 1>still through its natural selection ten thousand years ago. It's

0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:25.320
<v Speaker 1>still doing the kinds of things that would have enabled

0:40:25.320 --> 0:40:28.520
<v Speaker 1>it to succeed when there were fast running cheetahs and

0:40:28.600 --> 0:40:32.200
<v Speaker 1>aenas and things chasing them. And so it's a you know,

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:34.640
<v Speaker 1>it's an animal that's kind of living in its head

0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:36.000
<v Speaker 1>in a world of ghosts.

0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 4>And I think one thing when I look, especially having

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:42.000
<v Speaker 4>grown up in the East, when I look at pronghorn,

0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:45.719
<v Speaker 4>I think to myself, that doesn't look like it belongs here.

0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:49.640
<v Speaker 4>It doesn't look like anything else. It looks like it

0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 4>should be in Africa, when in fact it is the

0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:55.560
<v Speaker 4>the animal of all the ones that I know.

0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Today that has the deepest roots.

0:40:57.440 --> 0:41:00.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I think it is. It's twenty five

0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:03.000
<v Speaker 1>million years back, as you know, and of course we

0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 1>still have them. I mean, passenger pigeons go back fifteen

0:41:06.200 --> 0:41:08.560
<v Speaker 1>million years here, but we don't have them anymore. But

0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 1>this is a creature that goes back a long way,

0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:15.120
<v Speaker 1>and so it's really kind of it's as America. And

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 1>this is another kind of mind bender about all this

0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:23.759
<v Speaker 1>deep time evolution. It's as American almost as horses, which

0:41:23.800 --> 0:41:27.359
<v Speaker 1>evolved here fifty six million years ago, you know. And

0:41:27.400 --> 0:41:29.759
<v Speaker 1>so in the case of prong horns, they managed to

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:34.719
<v Speaker 1>get through the plastaink sanctions and survive, and horses, obviously,

0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:38.600
<v Speaker 1>while they survived elsewhere around the world, they didn't survive here.

0:41:39.160 --> 0:41:41.960
<v Speaker 2>But those are the two to me that have the

0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:43.160
<v Speaker 2>deepest time.

0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.160
<v Speaker 1>The other really deep time animals like camels, they were

0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:49.880
<v Speaker 1>about forty five million years old, and of course they

0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:50.839
<v Speaker 1>didn't they didn't make it.

0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:55.040
<v Speaker 5>Speaking of deep antiquity, you had to comment and you

0:41:55.080 --> 0:41:56.640
<v Speaker 5>just touched on it again a second ago. You had

0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 5>to comment in your in your show and mention it

0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:03.600
<v Speaker 5>now where you said, like us, they're the only one left.

0:42:03.760 --> 0:42:05.640
<v Speaker 5>And it was fighting that really struck me. It hadn't

0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:08.600
<v Speaker 5>occurred to me, But I'm often find myself explaining to

0:42:08.719 --> 0:42:12.080
<v Speaker 5>visitors who come out. We're driving around looking at wildlife.

0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:15.520
<v Speaker 5>I'll explain to him, I kind of get into like

0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:19.080
<v Speaker 5>what it means that they're the only to be the

0:42:19.080 --> 0:42:22.400
<v Speaker 5>only member like of your genus, and to have me

0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:26.160
<v Speaker 5>you came like it's hard to even find a relative right.

0:42:26.400 --> 0:42:29.080
<v Speaker 5>And I never thought I'm gonna start saying when I

0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:33.440
<v Speaker 5>do that little spiel, I'm gonna start saying, like us

0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:37.000
<v Speaker 5>like this, you can go like, there's this thing, there's

0:42:37.040 --> 0:42:37.960
<v Speaker 5>a chimpanzee.

0:42:38.400 --> 0:42:42.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that's probably Bob. As close as close as we're

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:42.719
<v Speaker 2>gonna get.

0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:45.640
<v Speaker 5>But I made the comment in our we did an

0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:49.840
<v Speaker 5>outdoor cookbook, and in the introduction of the outdoor cookbook

0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:52.160
<v Speaker 5>I made I made a comment that at the right

0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:57.200
<v Speaker 5>place and time, you know, in the Middle East, southern Spain, whatever,

0:42:57.200 --> 0:42:59.399
<v Speaker 5>at the right place and time, it would have been

0:42:59.480 --> 0:43:03.600
<v Speaker 5>possible for a human to have to see a fire

0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:09.000
<v Speaker 5>and the need to also and see figures sitting around

0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:11.840
<v Speaker 5>a fire at night, and you would need to wonder,

0:43:11.960 --> 0:43:17.279
<v Speaker 5>I wonder what species of human that is, which one

0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:18.239
<v Speaker 5>of us that is?

0:43:18.920 --> 0:43:21.680
<v Speaker 2>It was just like so hard to picture, I know.

0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:24.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's I read somewhere several years ago that

0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:27.480
<v Speaker 1>at one point in time, there may have been as

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:33.799
<v Speaker 1>many as eight different human species coexisting in Africa, and

0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:35.879
<v Speaker 1>I think it was Africa. I don't think that many

0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:37.680
<v Speaker 1>made it to the Middle East or further north, but

0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:42.560
<v Speaker 1>as many as eight different ones, So I mean, wow,

0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:46.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, you really there's actually I saw a movie

0:43:47.560 --> 0:43:51.600
<v Speaker 1>on I think it was on Netflix. It was on HBO,

0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:53.040
<v Speaker 1>I think, and I don't remember the name of it,

0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:56.759
<v Speaker 1>but it's basically was a movie about this group of

0:43:56.920 --> 0:44:01.759
<v Speaker 1>anatomically modern humans Homo sapiens, who are traveling across the

0:44:01.840 --> 0:44:04.239
<v Speaker 1>landscape and they camp out in woods one night and

0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:08.239
<v Speaker 1>some group attacks them and steals one of their you know,

0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 1>one of their children. And so the father and a

0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:14.839
<v Speaker 1>couple of other guys of this group and I think

0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:17.719
<v Speaker 1>of female, maybe the mother of the child too, they

0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:21.320
<v Speaker 1>track this other band and when they find them, they're

0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:25.880
<v Speaker 1>not Homo sapiens. They are some other species, you know,

0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:29.000
<v Speaker 1>and they're standing looking in the cave and what in

0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:33.520
<v Speaker 1>the hell? Yeah, So that was that was possible in

0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:36.959
<v Speaker 1>our past. It obviously was possible in the programing past,

0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:38.160
<v Speaker 1>but not.

0:44:38.040 --> 0:44:40.239
<v Speaker 2>For either one of us anymore. You know.

0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:44.560
<v Speaker 5>One time, when I was working on a book project,

0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:48.200
<v Speaker 5>I spent some time with an organization that was then

0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:50.399
<v Speaker 5>called the Buffalo Field Campaign. I remember you remember because

0:44:50.400 --> 0:44:52.720
<v Speaker 5>we had a mutual friend when I was a student

0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:53.160
<v Speaker 5>of yours.

0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:54.399
<v Speaker 1>Dan.

0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was kid in our class that.

0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:59.720
<v Speaker 5>Was was involved with Buffalo Field Campaign. And of course

0:45:00.880 --> 0:45:04.920
<v Speaker 5>that is a buffalo being a term that has fallen

0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:08.959
<v Speaker 5>out of favor and it's sort of taken the back

0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:13.399
<v Speaker 5>seat to the term bison, right, people explaining that it's

0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:15.600
<v Speaker 5>not actually a buffalo, it's it's a bison, and you're

0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:17.280
<v Speaker 5>confusing everybody by calling it a buffalo.

0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Away.

0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:19.760
<v Speaker 5>I was sitting there with a kid from the Buffalo

0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:23.000
<v Speaker 5>Field Campaigment. I was doing my reporting and I see

0:45:23.080 --> 0:45:27.520
<v Speaker 5>off in the distance an analope. Okay, so I say, oh,

0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:30.719
<v Speaker 5>there's an aneloe. He says, well, actually that's a prong horn.

0:45:31.320 --> 0:45:32.560
<v Speaker 5>I was kind of like, well, don't get me started,

0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.040
<v Speaker 5>because your whole organization is called buffalo.

0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:37.480
<v Speaker 3>And actually you're protecting.

0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:44.360
<v Speaker 5>So so with that said, I like, I'd like to

0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:46.200
<v Speaker 5>hear your thoughts on what terms you use.

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:49.560
<v Speaker 2>I have I stick with buffalo.

0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:54.440
<v Speaker 5>I noticed that Ken Burns has my back, but I

0:45:54.560 --> 0:45:57.760
<v Speaker 5>have switched and I now even will crack my kids.

0:45:57.760 --> 0:45:59.640
<v Speaker 2>I make them say pronghorn.

0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:04.279
<v Speaker 1>Instead of antelope. Huh, well, I would admit I kind

0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:08.000
<v Speaker 1>of us both for both animals I use and I

0:46:08.080 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 1>know I've got buffalo several times and written stuff, and

0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.759
<v Speaker 1>I think probably in this podcast in an episode or two,

0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:18.040
<v Speaker 1>I use the term buffalo. It's a good interchangeable word

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:20.120
<v Speaker 1>with bison, you know. And as a writer, you're always

0:46:20.160 --> 0:46:21.399
<v Speaker 1>trying to Okay, I don't want to use the same

0:46:21.440 --> 0:46:23.839
<v Speaker 1>damn word over and over and over again. So here's

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.799
<v Speaker 1>a good interchangement word. And everybody knows exactly what it is. Yeah, pronghorn.

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:31.600
<v Speaker 1>I tend to stick pretty closely with pronghorn. But in

0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 1>the nineteenth century, almost anybody you quote, like Josiah Gregg,

0:46:36.280 --> 0:46:39.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's an antelope. I mean, and that's how

0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:41.600
<v Speaker 1>they all describe it. It's an antelope.

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:45.200
<v Speaker 4>When we were I got really in the habit of

0:46:45.280 --> 0:46:50.640
<v Speaker 4>only using bison sort of in the academic context. And

0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:52.680
<v Speaker 4>then when we were working in the Long Hunter book,

0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:57.000
<v Speaker 4>Steve pointed out that none of these guys ever saw

0:46:57.040 --> 0:46:57.480
<v Speaker 4>a bison.

0:46:57.560 --> 0:47:02.040
<v Speaker 2>They saw buffalo. So we went through and changed that

0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:03.080
<v Speaker 2>for consistency.

0:47:03.480 --> 0:47:05.879
<v Speaker 5>I just haven't encountered a ton of confusion. If I'm

0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:09.239
<v Speaker 5>talking to someone and I'm saying like, hey, you know,

0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:11.560
<v Speaker 5>we can go down that way and you might see

0:47:11.560 --> 0:47:15.440
<v Speaker 5>some buffalo. They're never picturing an asiatic water buffalo.

0:47:15.719 --> 0:47:16.279
<v Speaker 2>They're just not.

0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:19.640
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I just never. It's like, I never have problems

0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:24.120
<v Speaker 5>with it. But you know, I like pronghorn. I guess

0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:27.960
<v Speaker 5>you know, I accept the interchangeability. And then I also

0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.320
<v Speaker 5>kind of as much as I like to word police

0:47:30.360 --> 0:47:33.240
<v Speaker 5>other people, when people word police me, I get prickly.

0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:40.280
<v Speaker 4>So Steve and I have been going around to different

0:47:40.360 --> 0:47:44.120
<v Speaker 4>universities talking about the Mountain Men project that we worked on,

0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:48.440
<v Speaker 4>and in the course of that talk, I described some

0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:51.120
<v Speaker 4>of the primary sources that we use, and one of

0:47:51.160 --> 0:47:54.600
<v Speaker 4>them I describe as Osborne Russell's Journal of a Trapper.

0:47:55.680 --> 0:47:58.560
<v Speaker 4>And I make the point though, I make the point

0:47:58.600 --> 0:48:01.560
<v Speaker 4>that in I said, it's it's just this wonderful source

0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:04.759
<v Speaker 4>and it can go from this very mundane we went

0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:07.440
<v Speaker 4>three miles north, no Beaver, we went three miles west,

0:48:07.440 --> 0:48:11.000
<v Speaker 4>no Beaver, we went you know, and then he has

0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:15.000
<v Speaker 4>these long, sort of flourishes of description and he includes

0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:18.440
<v Speaker 4>his own thoughts and reflections, and one of the points

0:48:18.440 --> 0:48:23.040
<v Speaker 4>that I've been highlighting as sort of a joke is

0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 4>that when he describes the pronghorn, he says that he

0:48:25.560 --> 0:48:29.080
<v Speaker 4>thinks they can be easily domesticated. And I sort of

0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:33.040
<v Speaker 4>share that with the crowd for a cheap laugh. And

0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:37.080
<v Speaker 4>then here I am and going through your episode and

0:48:37.120 --> 0:48:40.120
<v Speaker 4>you make the same point, and it makes me pause

0:48:40.160 --> 0:48:45.080
<v Speaker 4>and reflect on whether I've just embarrassed myself before several crowds.

0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:51.680
<v Speaker 5>According to the physiologist Jared Diamond, what does he say, well,

0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:54.640
<v Speaker 5>the whole have you read guns, germs and steel?

0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:54.799
<v Speaker 4>Oh?

0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:56.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But he lays out this.

0:48:56.480 --> 0:49:02.520
<v Speaker 5>Theory that he starts with this foundational question, why did

0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 5>who's a guy that came and attacked the Incas?

0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Bisarrow?

0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:13.440
<v Speaker 5>Why did Pizarro cross from Europe to attack the Incas?

0:49:14.120 --> 0:49:20.560
<v Speaker 5>Why didn't the Incas come from the east to attack Bizarrow?

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:23.439
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:28.320
<v Speaker 5>And then part of it gets into this this cocktail

0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:31.440
<v Speaker 5>of things. One thing is how many people live along

0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:34.799
<v Speaker 5>the same latitude so that they can develop certain agricultural

0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:38.279
<v Speaker 5>crops and technologies and it winds up being transferable. Are

0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:42.120
<v Speaker 5>you oriented north south or east west? And then he

0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:49.480
<v Speaker 5>gets into how many beasts did you have that could

0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:54.520
<v Speaker 5>be domesticated? And he says that here none.

0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:57.160
<v Speaker 2>None, So I mean the turkey.

0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:02.799
<v Speaker 1>So the two animals that I think would have been

0:50:03.000 --> 0:50:06.040
<v Speaker 1>fairly easy to domesticate would have been prong horns and

0:50:06.080 --> 0:50:06.839
<v Speaker 1>bighorn sheep.

0:50:07.520 --> 0:50:10.280
<v Speaker 2>And the reason I say that Dan Osborne and Russell's.

0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:13.640
<v Speaker 1>The reason I say that about bighorn sheep is because

0:50:13.680 --> 0:50:21.200
<v Speaker 1>I've read these sheep eater accounts around Yellowstone where some

0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:23.879
<v Speaker 1>of the archaeologist supposed his name whole Krantz or something,

0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:28.400
<v Speaker 1>who did that big sheep eater study, and he said

0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:31.839
<v Speaker 1>the sheep eaters told him the sheep eaters has shown.

0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:35.160
<v Speaker 1>He told him that big oorn sheep were really easy

0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:38.239
<v Speaker 1>to catch. He's just kind of lurked by one of

0:50:38.280 --> 0:50:41.760
<v Speaker 1>their trails and you had yourself a net, and especially

0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:44.440
<v Speaker 1>if you had a little depression or some kind of

0:50:44.440 --> 0:50:47.200
<v Speaker 1>little pit, you just threw the net over the top

0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:51.480
<v Speaker 1>of them, and they just kind of did this. Now,

0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:54.719
<v Speaker 1>of course, there's another step you have to make from

0:50:54.840 --> 0:50:58.840
<v Speaker 1>catching one to domesticating it. I mean you have to obviously,

0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:00.879
<v Speaker 1>you have to be able to train in some way.

0:51:01.040 --> 0:51:06.480
<v Speaker 5>The snakes are easy to catch, but that's uh.

0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.680
<v Speaker 1>And I can't say that I've seen anybody specifically, and

0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:14.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe I have, but I don't recall anybody

0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:18.239
<v Speaker 1>specifically running with that as a possibility, but I have

0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:20.720
<v Speaker 1>a sneaking suspicion that for a lot of these hunter

0:51:20.800 --> 0:51:25.440
<v Speaker 1>gatherer groups like that, they weren't interested in having domesticate

0:51:25.520 --> 0:51:30.120
<v Speaker 1>animals because they hadn't reached the stage that old worlders

0:51:30.160 --> 0:51:33.560
<v Speaker 1>had where Okay, man, there's kind of nothing left here.

0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:35.680
<v Speaker 1>We got to come up with We've got to come

0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:38.080
<v Speaker 1>up with some way to keep all this going. So

0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:40.680
<v Speaker 1>let's take those those goats right there. Let's see if

0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:43.440
<v Speaker 1>we can't tame them and get them to start following

0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:46.160
<v Speaker 1>us around and stuff. But a lot of the people

0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:51.960
<v Speaker 1>in the West, particularly outside the agricultural region of the

0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:54.640
<v Speaker 1>of the Southwest, with the pueblos, I mean, they're hunters

0:51:54.640 --> 0:51:57.799
<v Speaker 1>and gatherers, and they kind of don't have any need

0:51:57.920 --> 0:51:59.720
<v Speaker 1>or interest in domesticating anything.

0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:01.759
<v Speaker 5>You know what backs you up on this, As you said,

0:52:01.760 --> 0:52:05.319
<v Speaker 5>this is a great point you're making. Think about the

0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:09.560
<v Speaker 5>end of the near end of the buffalo. What winds

0:52:09.640 --> 0:52:13.920
<v Speaker 5>up happening when there aren't andy left. People start feeding

0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:19.040
<v Speaker 5>them with bottles, hitching them up, keeping the pastures, putting

0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:21.399
<v Speaker 5>them in barns. So it's like when there was yeah,

0:52:21.440 --> 0:52:22.960
<v Speaker 5>like you're saying, like if they had if people had

0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:25.919
<v Speaker 5>got pushed and pushed and pushed to where the only

0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.640
<v Speaker 5>way you were going to have protein reserves was if

0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:31.959
<v Speaker 5>you had it in your yard and took with.

0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:34.759
<v Speaker 1>You, and you would take the step because I mean,

0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:37.680
<v Speaker 1>think of this, you know. I mean, camels are nasty,

0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:39.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, I mean they would be nasty to try

0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:40.280
<v Speaker 1>to mistigate.

0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:40.960
<v Speaker 3>And horses.

0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if you ever spent a whole lot of

0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:45.279
<v Speaker 1>time around horses, and I have had horses for some

0:52:45.360 --> 0:52:46.560
<v Speaker 1>of my life, I.

0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:47.360
<v Speaker 3>Mean, damnation.

0:52:47.880 --> 0:52:51.200
<v Speaker 1>The first people who domesticated a horse must have been

0:52:51.200 --> 0:52:53.960
<v Speaker 1>pretty hard up. I mean those things, you know. The

0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:56.920
<v Speaker 1>reason they buck, of course, is that because cats had

0:52:56.960 --> 0:52:59.560
<v Speaker 1>always jumped on their backs, and of course they can

0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:02.360
<v Speaker 1>kick and bite it and they strike with their fore feet,

0:53:02.400 --> 0:53:04.520
<v Speaker 1>and I mean that would not have been an easy

0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.839
<v Speaker 1>animal to domesticate. So I think anybody who decides we're

0:53:08.880 --> 0:53:11.440
<v Speaker 1>going to domesticate a horse or a camel's backs against

0:53:11.440 --> 0:53:11.759
<v Speaker 1>the wall.

0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:16.959
<v Speaker 2>And they never got there with prong worn.

0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:21.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they needed to. Yeah, I think that's it.

0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:21.880
<v Speaker 1>They didn't need to