1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: One of the last things I said to her was, 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: when you go into that courtroom, you have to pick 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: a side to sit on. You can sit with your 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: daughter or you can sit with your husband, and I 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: hope that you're able to make the right choice. 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a special bonus episode 7 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: of Betrayal. A few months ago, we got an email 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 2: from a listener that stood out to our team. We're 9 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: going to call this listener Elizabeth. She had watched season 10 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 2: two of Betrayal on Hulu, which tells the story of 11 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: a stepdaughter that was violated by her stepfather. Elizabeth wrote 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: to us because the same thing was playing out in 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 2: her own life, or rather her best friend's life. Elizabeth 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: and her friend will call her Sarah, have been closed 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: for thirteen years. They used to live in the same 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 2: apartment building. Their daughters were around the same age. Sarah 17 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 2: was raising her daughter with her new husband, who became 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: her stepdad, the only father her daughter knew. Elizabeth and 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: Sarah's families became close. They planned joint family vacations and 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 2: shared holidays. Elizabeth felt like an aunt to Sarah's daughter, 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: who is now nineteen. A few months ago, Sarah texted 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: Elizabeth saying she needed to talk. It was an emergency. 23 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: She basically just started sobbing and told me everything. She 24 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: had been in the car with her daughter that day 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 1: and she had said something about her husband breaking up 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: pattern of abuse because he was abused sexually abused as 27 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,919 Speaker 1: a child, and she was so glad he was breaking 28 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: the pattern of abuse. And that was when her daughter 29 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: decided she couldn't take it anymore and she had to 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: tell her. 31 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: Sarah's daughter shared that her stepfather had sexually abused her. 32 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: It started in twenty sixty for her, so she was 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: eleven years old. 34 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: After Sarah found out, she confronted her husband. 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: And he admitted to everything, Yes I did this, Yes 36 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: I did that. She had already packed a bag for 37 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: him and told him that he needed to go and 38 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: stay with his mother, which was in the house about 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: half hour from them, and that he had a week's 40 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: worth of clothes and she would talk to him later. 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: So he didn't argue. He left immediately, and then the 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: daughter wanted to go and report it to the police. 43 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: Sarah went with her daughter to report the crime, and 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 2: a few months later, her husband was charged with multiple 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: counts of child abuse. He got out on bond and 46 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: is awaiting his court date. But that's just the beginning 47 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 2: of our episode. Because Sarah struggled to let her husband go. 48 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: She would ask me, you know, what do I do? 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: And I basically told her, well, you kind of have 50 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: to pretend in your mind like he's dead. You need 51 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: to grieve it like a loss because the person you 52 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: knew and the relationship you had and the future that 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: you were planning is gone. We talked about that a lot. 54 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: How do I do that? And I said, I can't 55 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: tell you how to do that. I don't know how 56 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: to do that. That's something you're going to have to 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: figure out, but that's what I think that you should do. 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: At this point, that message wasn't getting through to Sarah. 59 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: My friend was and is very attached to him and 60 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: very much in love with him. 61 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: When Sarah first found out, she cut off communication with 62 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: her husband. She ignored his texts begging for forgiveness, but 63 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: when he texted about everyday things like chores and bills, 64 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: she would engage. That progressed into longer phone conversations and visits. 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: Then they started going to therapy together. Within a few 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: weeks of the police report, Sarah's husband was back at 67 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: home sleeping in their bed. The night it happened, Sarah's 68 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: daughter left the house. She went to stay with her grandparents. 69 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 2: You may be wondering what about child protective services, Well, 70 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: Sarah's daughter is nineteen now an adult, so legally her 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: stepdad was allowed back in the same house. In the 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: absence of a protective order. There was nothing law enforcement 73 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: could do. There's limited interventions for adults in this situation. 74 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: For Elizabeth, her friend's decision was unimaginable. It was so 75 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,559 Speaker 2: unlike Sarah, and it just seemed wrong. 76 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: I texted Sarah and I said, listen, if this is 77 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: the route that you're going to go down, I can't 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: be a part of this. I can't understand how you 79 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: could do this, and if you want to explain it 80 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: to me, I'm willing to listen, but I can't support this. 81 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: And she said, I don't need to explain my feelings 82 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: to anybody. I am doing what I'm doing and it's 83 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: not my responsibility to make sure that you understand. I 84 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: just want everybody to let me do what I want 85 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: to do. And I said, well, I respect your decision 86 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: to have a choice, but I don't respect your choice, 87 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to be a part of this 88 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: any longer. And she said, that's all I'm asking for 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: is a little bit of respect, not understanding. But I 90 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: will live with my choices for the rest of my life, 91 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: and those are my choices. 92 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: This is what Elizabeth wrote to us. She felt helpless 93 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 2: watching her best friend let this man back into her life. 94 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: She worried at saying too much might blow up the 95 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: friendship and further isolate Sarah from the people. 96 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 3: Who love her. 97 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: But more than anything, she wanted to get through to 98 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 2: Sarah because Elizabeth felt as though her friend was choosing 99 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: her own attachments and needs over her daughter, and Elizabeth 100 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 2: felt like that was the wrong choice. Our team has 101 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: heard countless stories like this to the point where we 102 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: couldn't ignore this topic. Where loved ones watch from afar 103 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: as someone lets an abuser back into their life. It's 104 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 2: an incredibly painful thing to watch. People can draw boundaries 105 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: that end relationships. It's something we can all relate to 106 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: on some level. That's why we wanted to have this conversation. 107 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: We saw Elizabeth's question as a way into a larger 108 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: discussion about the role of loved ones in these cases, 109 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: what can we say when someone isn't ready to end 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: their relationship with an abuser? Elizabeth asked for advice from 111 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: Ashley Trhello, the subject of season two of Betrayal. Ashley 112 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 2: has been through something similar to Sarah. Her husband, Jason 113 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: was arrested for possession of child sexual abuse material. Among 114 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: the material in his stash were images of Aveya, images 115 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: he'd taken in secret. However, he had not been hands on, 116 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: and while Jason awaited sentencing, Ashley tried to salvage the relationship. 117 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: She went straight into WiFi mode, as she calls it. 118 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: It wasn't until she saw the full discovery file against 119 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: Jason that she finally decided to leave him. But those 120 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: few months actually stayed with him have had lasting impacts 121 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: on her relationship with her daughter. So we invited Ashley 122 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: Trahillo to talk with Elizabeth, and she agreed. We also 123 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: brought in Jessica Baum, a licensed clinical therapist, to help 124 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: guide the conversation. Jess worked closely with Ashley during season 125 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: two of Betrayal. You'll hear more from Jess as the 126 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,679 Speaker 2: conversation unfolds, but let's start with Elizabeth and Ashley. 127 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: I'm so glad to talk to you specifically, because actually 128 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: you were the one I wanted to talk to when 129 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: I first emailed been to the podcast, it was does 130 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: Ashley have any advice for you know, the friends and 131 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: the family when you first went back to Jason when 132 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: you first did that, and I'm certain everybody around you 133 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: was like, why why are you doing that? And for 134 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: me even now with Sarah, do I yell these things occurred? 135 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: Or should I have just shut up? Should I have 136 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: just said what she wanted, which was I'm here to 137 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: support you no matter what, even when I didn't agree. 138 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: What would you have wanted? 139 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 4: In hindsight, yeah, somebody should have shook me, snacked me, 140 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,959 Speaker 4: dunked my head in water. I don't know, whatever it 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 4: was you wake me up. But I don't know if 142 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 4: any of that would have worked, because at the end 143 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 4: of the day, so I had nothing to do with 144 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: how everybody else was feeling or what they thought I 145 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 4: should do or what they thought was the right thing 146 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 4: to do, because in my mind I was doing the 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 4: right thing. So if they had said something, I don't remember. 148 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 4: But to answer your question, I don't know if saying 149 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 4: anything in that moment it is work for her or 150 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 4: for you, And that's hard because you have to be 151 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 4: true to you and be true to like how your 152 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 4: friendship has always been with her. I think for anyone 153 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 4: that is listening and is in that situation, there's a 154 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 4: lot of factors that you have to consider. And my 155 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 4: family considered that they were afraid I was going to 156 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: be suicidal and my whole life blew up when I 157 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 4: already snuffered from depression. So I think they were very 158 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 4: aware of that, and they didn't want to be the 159 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 4: reason why I decided like, Okay, today's the day because 160 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 4: everyone thinks I'm disgusting and growth all these feelings already 161 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 4: felt inside myself, So I think that that's a factory 162 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 4: you have to consider. I don't know if that even 163 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 4: answers it, but it does. 164 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't know if you would have heard it 165 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: no matter what anybody had said. And that's I think 166 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: that's how I felt with Sarah. I've always had a 167 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: very open, honest relationship with her because that's just how 168 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: I am personally. I don't tend to keep things in. 169 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: If I want to say something, I say it. So 170 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 1: it was really hard. The way I described everything was 171 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: just walking on eggshells. When we left her house that 172 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: weekend that we were there, right after it happened. We 173 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: went to her sister and brother in law's house, and 174 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: I remember just sitting at the table and just crying 175 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: because it felt like a release just to talk to 176 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: people normally, just to say what I wanted to say. 177 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: Because you have you have to be very careful, especially 178 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: we don't have to be, but I felt like I 179 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: needed to be very careful. My whole family said that, 180 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: They've all said that, like word for work. We were 181 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: on egg jails with you. We didn't know if what 182 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: we're saying was right or if it was wrong. Yeah. 183 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 4: Another thing that I really want to highlight with the 184 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 4: whole situation is a Beya or Sarah's daughter. Even though 185 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 4: I've spent a couple months in denial, that was two 186 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 4: months and we are three years out, and my relationship 187 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 4: with a Veya is still healing from my betrayal to 188 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 4: a Veya. You know, I have been her safe spot 189 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 4: her whole life. I'm the constant thing that she's ever known. 190 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 4: And for me to I don't't even say discount like 191 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 4: what he did to her because in my brain I 192 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 4: had no idea I was even doing that, I didn't know. 193 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 4: I thought whatever I was doing was for the greater 194 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 4: good of my family, and being able to like take 195 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 4: those girls colored glasses off, I was able to kind 196 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 4: of see it from a bird's eye view and see 197 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 4: what I had done to a beya And you know, 198 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 4: speaking to my family about it, and we've spoke a 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 4: lot about it during that term because they're like, when 200 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 4: we heard that you were seeing Jason or you were 201 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 4: going back into wife mode, we thought, what the hell 202 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 4: is she doing? Like, what the hell is she doing? 203 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 4: And so when they told me that, I'm like, why 204 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: didn't you do something or say something to meet and 205 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 4: kind of the collective idea around it, because it wasn't 206 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 4: just you know, one person, It was my whole family, 207 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 4: you know, And I think they already knew that whatever 208 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 4: was going on, they didn't want to lose me too, 209 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 4: and so they just loved me. And I talked to Anna, 210 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 4: my sister. I talked to her the other day when 211 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 4: we were kind of preparing for this, and I was like, 212 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 4: you know, what, what do you think, Like, what would 213 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 4: you have done? And she told me, had I stayed 214 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 4: with him or continued to rationalize what he did. She 215 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 4: doesn't think she would have been able to have a 216 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 4: relationship with me just because of her own like moral compass. 217 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 4: She was like, I love you and I continue to 218 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 4: love you, but I couldn't. I couldn't witness that. So, yeah, 219 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 4: my relationship with Veyat and Sarah's relationship with her daughter 220 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: should be like to me at least, the pinnacle of 221 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 4: all of this. And I think that's what makes it 222 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: hard for everyone that's watching Sarah go through this is 223 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 4: to see for not connect those two together, because Aba 224 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 4: is completely different person than she was before this. It's 225 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 4: changed her fundamentally, and I know that two months had 226 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 4: a lot to do with it. 227 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: Sarah and I talked about your story, Ashley, because your 228 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: season was the one that she had told me about 229 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: and that I had watched at the beginning of January. 230 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: And you know, she said, this is just like that 231 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: Hulu episode and I said, yeah, it's exactly like that. 232 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and doing the podcast or doing Hulu for me, 233 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: it was super important for me to say what I did, 234 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 4: to say that I took him back to say that 235 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 4: I had rationalized all of those things because I knew 236 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 4: that I was not the only one. 237 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: If you've heard season two, you'll know that eventually the 238 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: glass shattered for Ashley. She finally saw Jason for who 239 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: he was and the danger he possessed. Ashley's been repairing 240 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: her relationship with her daughter ever since. She can understand 241 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: Sarah's pain and why Elizabeth is desperate for Sarah to 242 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 2: have that glass shatter moment. 243 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 4: Second thing I wanted to say is how wonderful of 244 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 4: a friend you are. 245 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: It's really hard to hear because it doesn't feel like 246 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: to be a wonderful. 247 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 4: I'm just sorry. I'm sorry that you had to witness this. 248 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: I'm sorry that, man, I don't know. It's just a 249 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: really terrible thing when I see that from like my 250 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 4: family and you know, our friends. You know, what a 251 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 4: terrible thing to have to witness, you know, because there 252 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 4: are some people in mine, in Jason's lives that couldn't 253 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 4: I don't fault them for that. I mean, I'm sad 254 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 4: for that relationship to be gone, but I understand why 255 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 4: they could not continue to be a part of mine 256 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: in the kids' lives. So it's a choice for you 257 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 4: to be where you're at. 258 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: I can't lie and say it's not a choice, especially 259 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: right now that I'm really struggling with. I understand that, 260 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: you know my reaction to her when she was saying, 261 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: I don't need to explain myself to you, you know, 262 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: I just need you to respect me. I understand that 263 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: it's not about me. It's never been about me. Her 264 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: world is blown up right now and she has no 265 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: space in it for one more person's problems and how 266 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: they're feeling about the situation, which is absolutely true. And 267 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: to me, you know, when he did what he did 268 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,479 Speaker 1: to her daughter, that can't be overcome. 269 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: This is where Jessica Baum jumped in to offer her expertise. 270 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 3: Elizabeth, I think you can't fathom how she could choose 271 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: this man over his daughter, which has a lot to 272 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 3: do also with what that brings up inside of you, 273 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:13,359 Speaker 3: which clearly you have a very strong and appropriate response 274 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 3: to that level of betrayal she might be doing to 275 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: her daughter by choosing this love over her daughter. And 276 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: so that's one piece, but a really big piece of 277 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 3: this is about attachment and how our brains work, and 278 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 3: our brains actually have us live in denial and remember 279 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 3: the good times when these kinds of things come up 280 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: to protect us. We are wired to stay in connection. 281 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: So Sarah is wired to stay in connection with this guy. 282 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 3: And it wasn't that black and white for Ashley either. 283 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: I mean, there were many, many good years where Jason 284 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: showed up and he was a wonderful person and he 285 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 3: was a good father. And there's all these layers to 286 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: this where your brain wants to focus and even romanticize 287 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: and needs to in order to survive. And that's how 288 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: we're wired. We're not wired to look at the bad 289 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 3: stuff and just leave every domestic violent case. Every person 290 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: in any kind of situation would flip a script and 291 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: just walk out if it was that easy. An attachment 292 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 3: is just so layered. So Sarah was, in her own 293 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 3: way in a form of denial. I also feel like 294 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 3: with Sarah, she's involved in the therapeutic process with this man. 295 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: I don't know how much Sarah was involved in understanding 296 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 3: his trauma, and I'm saying that that might not be 297 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 3: a good thing. She might have overidentified with his wounded 298 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: parts and underidentified with how he wounded her daughter. So 299 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 3: there was an overidentification, maybe even a self sacrifice on 300 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 3: her end for this little boy in him who got 301 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: abused and wanting to help that little boy that she 302 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 3: wasn't able to see how this adult man was hurting 303 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 3: her kid. I don't know if that helps, but this 304 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: is how our brain works, and this is how trauma works. 305 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 3: And you know, Ashley and I, we were in the 306 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: grief process for a really long time together. It's not 307 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 3: like this easy process. I mean thirteen year marriage. I 308 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 3: mean Ashley and I spent more time thinking about how 309 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 3: wonderful Jason was, and that's where her brain wanted to 310 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 3: go for a while, and that was important for Ashley 311 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 3: to get to the other side and integrate the full 312 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 3: version of Jason, not the good and the bad, but 313 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 3: all of the behaviors and make sense of them all. 314 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 3: Then I think you had a really appropriate response as 315 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 3: a friend, and you're clearly trying to put some of 316 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 3: the pieces together. And I'm just trying to help clarify 317 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: how challenging it is to be in Sarah's position. Not 318 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 3: that I'm okay with their choices, but her choices make sense. Really, 319 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 3: when you understand attachment, they can start to make sense. 320 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: We're having a conversation with a listener named Elizabeth. Her 321 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: best friend is stuck in a state of denial trying 322 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 2: to repair with a husband who sexually abused her daughter. 323 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: Watching her friend Sarah make this decision is excruciating because 324 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: for her, it's bigger than their friendship. It's about Sarah's 325 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: nineteen year old daughter. Elizabeth watched Sarah's daughter grow up 326 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: and helped care for her. They're like family. Here's Elizabeth. 327 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: Even when Sarah and I weren't talking, I stayed in 328 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: contact with her daughter because it was really important for 329 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: her to know. You know, if I do not speak 330 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: to your mother again ever, which we didn't say that 331 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: to her, I would tell her, your mom and I 332 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: are having a hard time right now, but no matter what, 333 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 1: that doesn't affect you and me. Like our relationship, you 334 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: have your circle, you have this support no matter what. 335 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,239 Speaker 1: And her daughter really kind of broke my heart and 336 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: explained to me that all of these reactions that we're 337 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: all having don't necessarily mean anything to her because this 338 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 1: happened so long ago that this is not new for her. 339 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: She's like, you guys are having big reactions because this 340 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: is brand new information for you. This is not brand 341 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: new for me. So she said that all she had 342 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: wanted was for somebody to believe her to be able 343 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: to say it and for somebody to believe her, which 344 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: of course everybody did instantly. And she's finally in therapy 345 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: and everything which her mother helped her get. And all 346 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: she would tell me was, I don't understand what's going on. 347 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: I don't understand. But she never seemed to be mad 348 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: to me. She never said I feel like she's choosing him, 349 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: I feel abandoned, I feel left out. They are so very, 350 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: very close. Which was one of the questions that I 351 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 1: wanted to come in with today, which is if I 352 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: do not continue a relationship with her mother, and to 353 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: be really honest, at this point, I don't know if 354 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: I can. I don't know yet. But if I don't, 355 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: how would I explain to her daughter, just because you're 356 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: close with your mom doesn't mean you need to follow 357 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: what she's doing, doesn't mean it's okay. And how do 358 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: I continue to support her and say those things without 359 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: her daughter pushing meat away just because we're disagreeing with 360 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: her mother, who she's so loyal to. 361 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 3: I keep going back to the theme of like connection 362 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: as a biological imperative, So her daughter is preserving the 363 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: connection with her mom as best she can and you know, 364 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: it's heartbreaking for us on the outside to see the 365 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: daughter kind of sacrifice, because the natural response to this 366 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 3: type of abuse is rage. That is a healthy response. 367 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: And if she's really doing some trauma work and working therapeutically, 368 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: the hope is that the therapist will help her access 369 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 3: what it feels like when someone perpetrates your boundaries like that. 370 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 3: But again, we don't want to push her there. In 371 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: a therapeutic setting, they might help her see this and 372 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 3: make the healthiest choices for her, but it might be 373 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: too scary for her to set big boundaries with her 374 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: mom right now. And I think the best thing you 375 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: can do for her daughter is be a listener, hold 376 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 3: space for her, but don't try to fix her or 377 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 3: advise her. If she is in therapy, they can help 378 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: her set the boundaries. You just need to hold the 379 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: space and work through with you, Elizabeth, what's coming up 380 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 3: in you. And you might want to work through that 381 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: with somebody else, Like I want to tell this daughter this, 382 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 3: and I want to tell her that this, and I'm 383 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 3: having all this anger and all of that is about you, 384 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 3: and I'm not totally valid, but it's for you to 385 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: work through in your own kind of space around all 386 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 3: of that, because that's how you can kind of keep 387 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 3: the boundaries a little bit better for you. 388 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: That does help a lot, because that was a big 389 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: question I had. You know, what do we say? 390 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: You can hold space? If she's asking, that's another thing. 391 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 3: But with enough therapy, she will get there on her 392 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 3: own time. I believe, in her own way, in her 393 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 3: own safety, she will say, wait a minute, let me 394 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 3: look at where my rage is, or she might access 395 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 3: those things. But you can't make her get there faster 396 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 3: if she's not ready, I guess, is what I'm trying 397 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: to say. 398 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that makes perfect studies. And I remember one 399 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: of the last things I said to Sarah was, when 400 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: you go into that courtroom, you have to pick a 401 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: side to sit on. You can sit with your daughter 402 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: or you can sit with your husband. And I hope 403 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: that you're able to make the right choice. And I 404 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: didn't tell her what I thought the right choice was, 405 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: but I told her you can choose whatever you want, 406 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: but there are consequences to your choices. And this is 407 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: a consequence because there was no way to continue forward 408 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: with him in her life still in that way, in 409 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 1: my opinion, I didn't do it as a punishment. This 410 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: is not it it's him or me situation. It was 411 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: never that. So just was drawing that boundary at that 412 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: time the right thing to do. 413 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have a couple things to say 414 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 3: about that. But boundaries that you said so brilliantly, boundaries 415 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 3: aren't about punishing another person or controlling another person. They're 416 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 3: about protecting ourselves, right, And so the boundary that you 417 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 3: set was for your own emotional help, you know, to 418 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 3: protect yourself from what you were seeing that was causing 419 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: a lot of distress inside of you. So when I 420 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 3: set a boundary, I try to say, hey, I'm doing 421 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 3: this for me, this is why I'm doing it. But 422 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 3: I mean, attachment runs deep, and there are times you 423 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: want to say, like, why didn't you just leave? And 424 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 3: it's not that simple. It's not that easy. When you 425 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 3: describe their love, it sounds like Sarah has a very 426 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: early attachment bond. She will override what we all think 427 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: she should do to stay in relationship, to not face 428 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 3: the fear of losing her person. She's surviving and staying 429 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 3: in an attachment that gives the illusion of being safer 430 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 3: or more security than leaving and facing the deep well 431 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: of loneness or emptiness. Her system knows that she might 432 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 3: have to face without him. 433 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 4: Honestly, that was that was me, Like what Sarah did 434 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 4: was me. We did Bible study together after this, Like 435 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 4: I still am dealing with some of that ships. I'm like, 436 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 4: but there was something going there was inside of me. 437 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 4: I couldn't. I couldn't rationalize it. I could not believe 438 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 4: that Jason was my husband and he was a sex offender. 439 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 4: I couldn't. There are two different people. I look back 440 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 4: at it now and I'm like, something was wrong inside 441 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 4: my brain. It wasn't connecting everything correctly. It is the 442 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 4: weirdest phenomenon. Often it's not about the other person's behavior. 443 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 4: It's not about this guy's behavior. It's about what part 444 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 4: of myself do I need to face if I actually 445 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 4: leave this relationship. That's terrifying me. Her brain is going 446 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 4: to work. 447 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: Really hard to minimize things to keep connection with him, 448 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 3: and everybody on the outside is going to look at 449 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 3: this and it's very black and white. But when you're 450 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: on the inside and you're living it, it's not that 451 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: black and white. And it wasn't that black and white 452 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: for Ashley either. I mean, I had to meet Ashley 453 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 3: and I just say, of course you love him, of 454 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: course you miss him, of course tell me about the 455 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 3: good years. It wouldn't have worked if I just went 456 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: in black and white with you, Ashley, just wouldn't have worked. 457 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: Our listener, Elizabeth has been taking this all in and 458 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: through the conversation, and she realized that it's not just 459 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: about what she should say to her friend. It's about 460 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 2: her own experience of watching Sarah make this choice. For 461 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: Elizabeth that might be a decision she can't overlook. 462 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: I was so looking forward to talking to both of 463 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: you today. But I love hearing that from a therapist 464 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: point of view, from a licensed therapist point of view, 465 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: because I never thought about that. You know, Like I said, 466 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: I went with my husband literally saying the same things 467 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,719 Speaker 1: over and over, begging him pretend I'm not an adult 468 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: and tell me exactly, step by step what do I do. 469 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: That's all I want right now is for somebody to 470 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: tell me exactly what to do. Pretend I'm a child, 471 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: give me the next steps, because I don't know anymore. 472 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: But I kind of landed on it with I guess 473 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: now it is about me at this point, and whether 474 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: is that moral issue that I have a problem with, 475 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: even though I understand that it is a more issue 476 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: that I have within myself. Do I now continue the 477 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: friendship when I feel like the foundation of who we 478 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: are as people? To me, her foundation has shifted and 479 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: who I thought she was is not who she was, 480 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: and when the dust settles, it is who she has 481 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 1: changed for me. And the answer is yes, So what 482 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: do I do with that now? 483 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 4: Right? I think that you have to do what's safe 484 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 4: for you, you know, and say for your mental health, 485 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 4: And I'll leave you with this. There is not a 486 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 4: day that goes by that I don't feel like I 487 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: did the wrong thing, and I will live with that 488 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: for the rest of my life. I'm not saying Sarah will, 489 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 4: so don't. I don't know her, and I don't know 490 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 4: if she's going to go back with them or what 491 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 4: that's going to look like. But there's not a day 492 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 4: that goes by that I don't I don't try to 493 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 4: make up for that failure in every way every way 494 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 4: I can, especially around you know a vea. But I 495 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 4: feel for you, and I think whatever you do moving 496 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 4: forward doesn't discount the friendship that you had with her 497 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 4: and how you looked at her and how much you 498 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 4: love her, how much you love her daughter and her family. 499 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 4: It doesn't discount any of that. And I know that 500 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 4: whatever you do going forward is going to be best 501 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 4: for you and your family, and you have to do that. 502 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. And you know, it's interesting to me 503 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: that you don't remember if anybody has said anything in 504 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: the moment. And I wonder if Sarah will get there, 505 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, in a couple of years, if she'll forget 506 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: everything that was said. And I'm okay, it's fine if 507 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: she does, but I just hope that she felt loved 508 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: and supported through it all the way that you did. 509 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: You know, I think that you telling your story just 510 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: in this podcast period is incredibly brave and amazing and 511 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: so helpful to people, obviously to complete strangers, you know 512 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: somewhere that you don't even know in the world, because 513 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: it's a ripple, you know, apart from the core people 514 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: who this immediately affects, it affects everybody around you as well. 515 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: It affects you, it affects your daily life. And her 516 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: sister and brother in law law and I and my 517 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: husband kind of formed our support group so that we 518 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: could say the things we wanted to say without hurting Sarah, 519 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: which I would highly recommend to any friend or family 520 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: member in this situation. Get your own support group with 521 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: other people who are trying to navigate exactly like you. 522 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: And I love that we were able to do this 523 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: today because if I had questions, other people have questions. 524 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: Conversations like this can be triggering. They insite judgment and anger. 525 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: We felt it as we produce this episode, but like 526 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: Elizabeth said, she's not the only one. We just hope 527 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: this episode finds the people who need to hear it. 528 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: I want to give a special thanks to Jessica Baum, 529 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: Ashley Trujillo, and our anonymous listener, Elizabeth. If you're interested 530 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 2: in learning more about attachments, we recommend Jessica Baum's book 531 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: Anxiously Attached, Becoming More Secure in Life and Love. 532 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 5: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 533 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 5: team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email 534 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 5: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 535 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 5: at gmail dot com. 536 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 3: We're grateful for your support. 537 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 5: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 538 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 5: show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and 539 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 5: review Betrayal five star reviews. 540 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: Go a Long Way, A big thank you to all 541 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 2: of our listeners. 542 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 5: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, vision of Glass 543 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 5: Entertainment Group in partnership. 544 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 3: With iHeart Podcasts. 545 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 5: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, 546 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 5: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced 547 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 5: by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers 548 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 5: are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart team is 549 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 5: Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by 550 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 5: mattel Vecchio, Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme 551 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 5: composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mob Music 552 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 5: and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 553 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.