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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick. And today we're bringing you

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Speaker 2: another episode from the Vault. Rob and I are out

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Speaker 2: on fall Break this week. This is part two in

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Speaker 2: our series on necromancy. It's called The Necromantic Urge. This

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Speaker 2: episode originally published October third, twenty twenty three. Enjoy Ah Necromancy,

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Speaker 2: Sweet Ah Wizard air udet teach me the skill that

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Speaker 2: I instill. The pain surgeons assuage in vain, nor herb

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Speaker 2: of all the plane can heal.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And that poem I

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Speaker 2: just read was from Emily Dickinson and some of the

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Speaker 2: numbering systems. That's her poem, number one seventy seven. I

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Speaker 2: would say not one of her greatest efforts, But you know,

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Speaker 2: some of those poems in her collections seem like something

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Speaker 2: she just jotted on the back of a notepad real quick.

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Speaker 2: I think that's more one of those. But I still

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Speaker 2: like the forced rhyme of sweet with aeradite, and I

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Speaker 2: don't know, wizard feels more right than Wizard.

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Speaker 1: I like the reading. Yes, and yeah, this was not

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Speaker 1: a poem of Emily Dickinson's that I was familiar with.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes just it's given the title ah Necromancy Sweet, it

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Speaker 1: is a note that like, basically I was gonna just

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Speaker 1: bust out another Clark Ashton Smith poem for this episode,

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Speaker 1: but then I was like, who else has some poems

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Speaker 1: about necromancy and necromancers? And lo and behold, Emily Dickinson

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Speaker 1: has not one, but two, which may surprise some of you,

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Speaker 1: may not surprise some of you who are more familiar

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Speaker 1: with her work.

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Speaker 2: I would say I'm an Emily Dickinson fan, though I

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Speaker 2: would not have been able to tell you that she

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Speaker 2: had poems that use the word necromancy, though I know

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Speaker 2: a number of her poems are concerned with death.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she saw the skull beneath the skin, that's for sure.

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Speaker 2: Oh skull of skulls. Well, anyway, we are back with

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Speaker 2: part two in our series on necromancy. Now, if you've

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Speaker 2: been listening to the podcast for a while, you probably

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Speaker 2: know that every year, for the whole month of October,

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Speaker 2: we focus our attention on topics of the beastly, ghostly,

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Speaker 2: devilish or uncanny sort. And also, as we often do,

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Speaker 2: we got started a little bit early this year, So

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Speaker 2: we got started last week even though it was still

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Speaker 2: technically September, with the first part in a series on necromancy,

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Speaker 2: the practice of communicating with the dead, usually for the

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Speaker 2: purpose of divination, of gaining access to hidden information or truth.

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Speaker 2: And in that episode we talked about accounts of necromancy

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Speaker 2: or pseudo necromatic legends from ancient China, as well as

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Speaker 2: methods of both speaking to and exercising ghosts in the

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Speaker 2: first millennium BCE in Mesopotamia. And today we are going

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Speaker 2: to continue our journey into the nether world talking about

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Speaker 2: necromancy practices and legends from ancient Greece and Rome.

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Speaker 1: That's right, We're gonna be talking about Greek accounts of

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Speaker 1: necromancy or things like necromancy to some extent in this episode,

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Speaker 1: and who knows where we'll end up in a third

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Speaker 1: episode on necromancy. So one of the sources that I

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Speaker 1: mentioned in the last episode is a paper by Czech

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Speaker 1: academic Andrej CapCar titled the Origins of Necromancy or how

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Speaker 1: we learn to speak to the dead great title, and

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Speaker 1: according to CapCar, the earliest mentions of necromancy, they don't

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Speaker 1: require a lot of inference and interpretation, can be found

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Speaker 1: in ancient Greece. In this we're dealing with nekia, which

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Speaker 1: is the practice of calling forth and asking them about

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Speaker 1: the future, or as we'll get into, things that are

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Speaker 1: maybe not the future, but that are concerned with knowledge

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Speaker 1: beyond what an individual has at their disposal. You know,

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Speaker 1: the dead by virtue of being dead, they can tell

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Speaker 1: you things. They can tell you things from their life,

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Speaker 1: from their place of origin, and so forth. The primary

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Speaker 1: example that he deals with, and indeed of a primary

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Speaker 1: example you see in a lot of discussions of what

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Speaker 1: is or isn't necromancy in ancient Greek traditions, takes us

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Speaker 1: all the way back to book eleven of the Odyssey,

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Speaker 1: in which Odysseus receives instructions about how to question the

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Speaker 1: dead and then does so. Now, Joe correct me if

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Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But I think we've recounted this story before

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Speaker 1: on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Possibly, but it's been a while, so I think it's

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Speaker 2: worth refreshing on this story.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, I'll give everyone the basics here concerning

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Speaker 1: this episode. So basically, you know, the deal with Odysseus

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Speaker 1: is trying to get home, right, He's he's been off

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Speaker 1: to war, he's seen the Trojan Wars and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Wants to get home, wants to be reunited with his wife.

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Speaker 1: A lot of misadventures occur on the way, so he

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Speaker 1: takes the scenic route does he takes the scenic route

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Speaker 1: and one of the more scenic routes ends up taking

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Speaker 1: He and his crew wind up on the island of

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Speaker 1: Circe in the care you might say, or under the

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Speaker 1: dominion of the enchantress Circe, and there's you know, there's

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Speaker 1: some misunderstanding, there's some transfiguration involved, there's a good bit

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Speaker 1: of seduction, and they end up staying there for like

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Speaker 1: a year. So they're hanging out on this island for

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of time.

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Speaker 2: I don't know exactly how all of this gets explained

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Speaker 2: Penelope later.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's a possible answer to that here

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Speaker 1: coming up. But essentially, you know, he has time to

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Speaker 1: seek some some guidance, get some some advice from Circe,

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Speaker 1: and basically he wants to seek the advice of the

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Speaker 1: prophet Tyrisius, the blind Seer of Thebes, who in one

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Speaker 1: Greek myth is changed into a woman for several years

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Speaker 1: and then back into a man. But in this story,

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Speaker 1: this seer is dead, and that's a problem, and that's

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Speaker 1: why Circe sends Odysseus to the very gates of the

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Speaker 1: Land of the Dead in order to seek his advice.

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Speaker 1: So that's what the crew does. That's what the guys do.

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Speaker 1: They go to the very limits of the mortal realm,

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Speaker 1: right up to the border with the Land of the Dead,

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Speaker 1: and per Circe's instructions, they dig a trench, they offer libations,

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Speaker 1: they sacrifice you and a ram. These are the practices

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Speaker 1: of Nekia. So the blood of the sacrifice calls forth ghosts,

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Speaker 1: but it calls forth ghosts by the thousands, so it's

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Speaker 1: just just calls them all out. They all come swarming.

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Speaker 1: Key individuals that Odysseus knew in life they come forward

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Speaker 1: as well. One of them is Odysseus's own mother, an initial,

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Speaker 1: so he does not let her of her spirit approach

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Speaker 1: the blood. But finally here comes Diyrisius. He drinks the

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Speaker 1: blood and then speaks and tells Odysseus how their journey

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Speaker 1: home is likely to go, and basically he breaks it

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Speaker 1: to him. Look, you you know that stuff with the

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Speaker 1: Cyclops while you offended Poseidon and he's a p pretty

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Speaker 1: powerful guy. You're gonna have to make amends for that.

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Speaker 1: There he outlines some of the other hurdles that are

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Speaker 1: in their path, and then Odysseus asked, well, how can

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Speaker 1: I speak to the ghost of my mother who I

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Speaker 1: just ran into? And he is told that he must

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Speaker 1: let the spirit drink the blood. If the spirit doesn't

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Speaker 1: drink the blood, then they cannot speak to the living,

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Speaker 1: and so he allows his mother's spirit to do that.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't stand in her way, and he's able to

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Speaker 1: speak with his mother and learn about events at home.

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Speaker 1: There are more details when I may touch on some

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Speaker 1: more here in a minute, but that's the basics here.

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Speaker 1: Odysseus engages in a specific rite to attract the spirits

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Speaker 1: of the deceased, appeases them, and gives them the power

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Speaker 1: of speech and their for prophecy.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I know this passage is of interest to

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Speaker 2: people trying to understand the culture and the ritual practices

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Speaker 2: of ancient Greece because It's often interpreted not just as

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Speaker 2: an isolated story in a fictional narrative, but a reflection

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Speaker 2: of generally how the rituals of necromancy were thought to work,

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Speaker 2: at least to some extent.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, so yeah, we're doing with what an

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Speaker 1: eighth century BCE text that many argue as our earliest

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Speaker 1: clear look at the idea of what would come to

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Speaker 1: be known as necromancy. But at the same time, I

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Speaker 1: do have to highlight that I was looking around not

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Speaker 1: everyone is convinced that it's truly what we'd call necromancy.

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Speaker 1: We kind of get into the semantics game again. I've

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Speaker 1: seen arguments that what takes place here is essentially a

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Speaker 1: standard sacrifice to the spirits of the dead, only observed

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Speaker 1: on the physical threshold of death's own country. So I

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Speaker 1: don't you know, again, theerhaps the location is the key

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Speaker 1: thing here, and the right itself is not necromancy itself,

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Speaker 1: but takes on necromantic powers due to proximity to the

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Speaker 1: land of the dead.

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Speaker 2: That'll come back in some stuff I want to get

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Speaker 2: into in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, plenty of commentators do equate

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Speaker 1: Nekia with necromancy. Some things to keep in mind about

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Speaker 1: what we see here in this primary example. So, first

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Speaker 1: of all, as we were discussing in the first episode,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those ancient accounts that involves speaking

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Speaker 1: to the dead. It does not involved controlling the dead.

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Speaker 1: I mean, aside from just giving them the power of

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Speaker 1: speech by offering them the blood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, we talked about in the last episode.

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Speaker 2: How if you hear the word necromancer today, especially if

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Speaker 2: you play Dungeons and Dragons or you're familiar with general

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Speaker 2: fantasy horror literature, you're probably thinking of someone who commands

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Speaker 2: armies of skeletons to do their bidding. And that's not

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Speaker 2: usually what's being discussed with ancient necromancy. It's specifically a

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Speaker 2: divination practice. It's about communicating with the dead, usually to

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Speaker 2: get information.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the other interesting thing about this, and something

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Speaker 1: I rather like about this example, is that Odysseus doesn't

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Speaker 1: summon one dead individual from the realm of the dead.

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Speaker 1: He summons all of them at once, like just a

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Speaker 1: mass of them. It's like it's kind of like he

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Speaker 1: replied all or you know how in different organizations, there'll

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Speaker 1: be that one email address where you can, you can

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Speaker 1: contact everybody in the organization. It's like, you know, all

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Speaker 1: dead at underworld dot com or something to that effect.

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Speaker 1: That's what Odysseus does here. And they're like, whoa, everybody's

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Speaker 1: in the chat now.

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Speaker 2: And then everybody starts replying, and that's the day. You

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Speaker 2: get five hundred emails on the same thread and yeah, exactly, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then he has to try and figure out who

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Speaker 2: he specifically wants to talk to.

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Speaker 1: Now. Aspects of this that are reflected in later traditions

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Speaker 1: of necromancy. It does entail blood. There is blood and

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Speaker 1: blood sacrifice involved here. It intail it does entail the

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Speaker 1: ability to speak with the dead and learn from them.

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Speaker 1: And again this may work mostly due to proximity to

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Speaker 1: the Kingdom of the Dead. And you could also classify

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Speaker 1: this as an example of katabasis or a descent into

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Speaker 1: the underworld. I mean, even if Odysseus is only going

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Speaker 1: to the gates of Hell here, I mean he's essentially

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Speaker 1: he's essentially in the underworld, right, I mean, where do

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Speaker 1: you draw the line between actually going there and just

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Speaker 1: going to the edge of it?

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Speaker 2: Right? Well, So you could have an example like Orpheus

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Speaker 2: that I think is more a more complete katabasis. But

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Speaker 2: this is he's at least going part of the way.

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Speaker 2: And I think it is portrayed from what I recall

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Speaker 2: in the narrative as a as a harrowing journey into

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Speaker 2: a place that, you know, where mortals do not normally

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Speaker 2: tread exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course this is a major theme in literature.

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Speaker 1: We see it in Virgil Zania, we see it in

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Speaker 1: Dante's Divine Comedy, and so many other examples, you know,

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Speaker 1: pop culture and otherwise. When people travel into the realm

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Speaker 1: of the dead to get something, to find someone, to

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Speaker 1: get secret knowledge, et cetera, there are often complications. There's

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Speaker 1: often a fair amount of traunta.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know what. Another thing I recall from the

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Speaker 2: narrative in the Odyssey is that it presents a vision

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Speaker 2: of the underworld and of the afterlife in which being

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Speaker 2: dead sucks. It is really bad, and it's just it's

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Speaker 2: not something you want and it's not like heaven where

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Speaker 2: everybody's a nice angel and things are great, now you

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Speaker 2: know it just it depicts the afterlife is a kind

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Speaker 2: of miserable only half kind of pseudo existence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting to think about that I mean,

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Speaker 1: we could have a larger discussion about various versions of

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Speaker 1: the afterlife, but certainly, very generally, there are plenty of

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Speaker 1: other examples where the afterlife is considered like the destination,

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Speaker 1: it is the thing, and suffering here in the mortal

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Speaker 1: realm is worth it for those treasures in the next realm.

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Speaker 1: And you know, at least on the surface, you seem

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Speaker 1: to see a reversal here in these traditions where like,

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Speaker 1: this is the life, this is the prime existence. What

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Speaker 1: happens next is just kind of a shadow. Now. CapCar

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Speaker 1: also singles out one of the other details of this encounter,

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Speaker 1: and that's and that concerns one of the other dead individuals,

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Speaker 1: the spirits of the dead that approaches Odysseus here from

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Speaker 1: the underworld, and that's Elpinor. This was the youngest member

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Speaker 1: of Odysseus's crew, who remember that that year that they

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Speaker 1: spent on the island of Circe. Well, during that year,

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Speaker 1: Elpinor becomes drunk and decides, you know what I'm gonna do.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go sleep on that roof. So he grips

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Speaker 1: and gets himself a ladder and he starts climbing up

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Speaker 1: that ladder to get on the roof so he can sleep,

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Speaker 1: but he falls off the ladder, he breaks his neck,

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Speaker 1: he dies. Well, you know, it's sad, but even sadder

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Speaker 1: it turns out the boys forgot to give him a

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Speaker 1: proper burier and to grieve for him. So it's kind

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Speaker 1: of embarrassing for Odysseus. He shows up here in the

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Speaker 1: underworld and here comes Elpinor, and he says, hey, you

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Speaker 1: remember me. I was the youngest member of your crew,

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Speaker 1: and I got drunk, I fell off that ladder, I

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Speaker 1: broke my neck. Well, you guys didn't bury me or

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Speaker 1: grieve for me. Could you do that? That would be

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Speaker 1: really swell, And so Odysseus says, yes, we'll totally do that.

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Speaker 1: Are bad, We will bury you and grief for you.

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Speaker 1: And so, I don't know, I'm looking at it with

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Speaker 1: a slightly humorous lens. I don't know if that was

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Speaker 1: really intended in the original work, but it is in principle.

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Speaker 1: Another example of the restless Dead, which we referred to

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Speaker 1: in the last episode, the idea that you know there

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Speaker 1: are different types of ghosts. There are different types of

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Speaker 1: spirits of the dead that might speak to you. They're

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Speaker 1: the ones who were properly buried and are remembered, and

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Speaker 1: everything is sort of like squared away with them. And

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Speaker 1: there are those that have some kind kind of a

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Speaker 1: grudge something, you know, keeping them here in our world,

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Speaker 1: or specifically they were not properly buried and therefore cannot

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Speaker 1: pass on. Now. Necromancy occurs elsewhere in ancient Greece. We'll

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Speaker 1: get into some examples of this as we proceed here,

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Speaker 1: often involving temples devoted to an oracle of the dead.

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Speaker 1: So this is the place where one could specifically go

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Speaker 1: to seek to call up a spirit of the deceased.

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Speaker 1: Various authors wrote about such places, including Plutarch and Herodotus.

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Speaker 1: You'll find details of these oracles in their writings.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about some examples of those places

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Speaker 2: in a minute. But I really got to wondering, why

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Speaker 2: do people think that ghosts know anything special, you know,

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Speaker 2: other than answering questions like what's going on in the

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Speaker 2: nether world. I mean that came up in the ancient

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Speaker 2: Mesopotamian poem of Gilgah in key Do in the nether world,

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Speaker 2: where I remember Gilgamesh, he keeps like his stuff keeps

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Speaker 2: falling into the underworld into the house of Dust, and

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Speaker 2: he's like, I need my stuff back, and then in

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Speaker 2: key Do goes down in there to get it for him,

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Speaker 2: but in key Do screws up. He doesn't follow the rules.

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Speaker 2: He throws throwing sticks at the dead and all that,

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Speaker 2: and then he gets stuck down there, and so he's

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Speaker 2: dead now. And then he comes back up through through

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Speaker 2: a necromantic summoning and Gilgamesh is like, hey, tell me

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Speaker 2: what the nether world is, like, you know, what are

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Speaker 2: the fates of the dead down there? And so forth?

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Speaker 2: That that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but other otherwise, I mean, there are certain

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Speaker 1: situations so takes take Odysseus speaking with his mother. If

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Speaker 1: memory serves, the whole situation is like his mother was

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Speaker 1: alive when he last saw her, and so this is

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Speaker 1: he's learning things about home that that details about home

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Speaker 1: that he's not privy too, but she experienced before her passing.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm remembering that ride. I could be misremembering

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Speaker 1: part of that.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that there are some classes of information that

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Speaker 2: makes sense in a practical way like that, and I'll

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Speaker 2: get into that in a minute. But also like how

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Speaker 2: would a ghost have privileged information, so information about the future. Well,

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Speaker 2: I found an interesting article that gets into that somewhat

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Speaker 2: with respect to ancient Greek and Roman necromancy, but also

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Speaker 2: has a lot of other interesting general information about Greco

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Speaker 2: Roman practices of communicating with the dead. So I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about this article. It is called lay that

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Speaker 2: Ghost Necromancy in Ancient Greece and Rome by Daniel Ogden,

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Speaker 2: was originally published in Archaeology Odyssey back in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and two. I found a republication of it on the

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Speaker 2: magazine of a Biblical archaeology website. But Daniel Ogden is

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Speaker 2: a professor of ancient history at the University of Exeter

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Speaker 2: in England.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a great question because it instantly reminds

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Speaker 1: me of that episode of The Simpsons where Homer eats

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Speaker 1: the pepper and has kadelic dream journey Johnny Cash. He

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Speaker 1: he talks to the space coyote voiced by Johnny Cash

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Speaker 1: and he's asking some advice of it, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just an hallucination. I don't have any new information.

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Speaker 2: But so sometimes it didn't have to be new information.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it was like you were saying personal, practically accessible

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Speaker 2: information for the ghost One common example of this is

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Speaker 2: stories of necromancy from ancient Greece, where the ghost tells

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Speaker 2: you what you need to do to fix your relationship

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Speaker 2: with the ghost with themselves. So if somebody died an

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Speaker 2: untimely death and it was your fault, you could perform

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Speaker 2: necromancy to find out what was needed in order to

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Speaker 2: make amends.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can almost think of this as some

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Speaker 1: sort of I mean, hopefully you didn't just murder the

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Speaker 1: person in cold blood, but even still, I guess it's

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Speaker 1: almost like some form of therapy, Like this is weighing

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Speaker 1: heavily on your conscious Let's summon up the spirit of

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Speaker 1: the dead and see what they want in order for

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Speaker 1: things to move on.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it was just straight up murder. I'll mention a

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Speaker 2: couple of different examples. So the article here opens with

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Speaker 2: a retelling piece together from Plutarch, Thucydides, and a few

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Speaker 2: other sources of this story of the fifth century BCE,

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Speaker 2: Spartan General Pausanias. Now, just to note this, this story

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Speaker 2: is pieced together from a bunch of different accounts, and

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Speaker 2: it is not necessarily all history thought to be all

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Speaker 2: historically true. This is like the story of this guy's life.

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Speaker 2: But Pausanias was a Spartan regent and general who famously

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Speaker 2: defended Greece. He defended the Hellenic League against the Persians

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Speaker 2: at the Battle of Platia. So his original fame is

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Speaker 2: as a defender of Greece against Persian invasion. But then

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Speaker 2: later in life he was caught trying to betray Greece

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Speaker 2: and make a secret pact with the Persian kings or

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Speaker 2: Exees the Great. And in the middle of all this

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Speaker 2: there is a tragic story that Pausanias accidentally killed an

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Speaker 2: innocent young woman named Kleonisi in his bedchambers when he

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Speaker 2: was startled awake in the night. I guess he thought

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Speaker 2: there were assassins coming for him. He reaches for his

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Speaker 2: sword and he accidentally kills this woman, this young woman,

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Speaker 2: and after this he is haunted by the woman's ghost.

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Speaker 2: So he sought the help of a necromancer or I

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Speaker 2: guess maybe it's debatable whether this should be called a necromancer.

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Speaker 2: But he sought the help of a a sort of

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Speaker 2: spirit guide at an oracle of the dead on the

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Speaker 2: southern shore of the Black Sea. So this is a

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Speaker 2: place where you would go to conjure up a ghost,

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Speaker 2: and so he conjures the ghost of Kleonsy so he

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Speaker 2: could learn how to make it right, and according to

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Speaker 2: the legend, the ghost told him all he needed to

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Speaker 2: do to make amends and to stop the haunting would

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Speaker 2: be to return home to Sparta. But this is one

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Speaker 2: of those cruel tricks that ghosts sometimes play, because when

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Speaker 2: he went home to Sparta, his betrayal to the Persians

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Speaker 2: was exposed. So the Spartans found out about him. They

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Speaker 2: tried to seize him, and then he tried to seek

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Speaker 2: sanctuary in the Temple of Athena, where he thought his

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Speaker 2: pursuers would be unable to capture and execute him for

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Speaker 2: fear of impiety. You know, he's taking sanctuary in a temple.

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Speaker 2: But the story goes that they found a way around this.

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Speaker 2: The Spartans bricked up the entrance and sealed him inside

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Speaker 2: until he starved to death.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: After this, however, there was an all new problem. Now

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Speaker 2: the ghost of Pausanias was haunting the Temple of Athena,

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Speaker 2: so the Spartans had to ask the oracle of Delphi

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Speaker 2: what to do, and then the oracle advised them that

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Speaker 2: they needed to bring in some exorcists. These professional Ogden

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Speaker 2: calls them evocators. He says, the Greek term is sucha gogoy,

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Speaker 2: which means soul conductors. And they came in and they

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Speaker 2: checked the situation out and told them how to get

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Speaker 2: rid of the Gho of Pausanias, and they succeeded. They

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Speaker 2: exercised him effectively basted right. Bustin must make them feel

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Speaker 2: good because they came all the way from Italy to

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Speaker 2: Sparta to do this. And this story illustrates what Ogden

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Speaker 2: claims is probably the most common piece of information sought

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Speaker 2: from the dead in Greek and Roman necromancy, and that

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Speaker 2: is what does the ghost need? What will make the

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Speaker 2: ghost go away or stop haunting me, or allow the

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Speaker 2: ghost to achieve rest. And I thought this was interesting

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Speaker 2: in that it combines two different traditions that we talked

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Speaker 2: about separately in the last part in this series. So

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Speaker 2: one is necromancy seeking information from the dead, and the

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Speaker 2: other is exorcism, which is the removal of a ghost

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Speaker 2: or a spirit from an unwonted place or context. So,

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Speaker 2: if Ogden is correct here, the most common aim of

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Speaker 2: the former is actually the achievement of the latter. The

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Speaker 2: most common reason ancient Greek and Roman people would go

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Speaker 2: go to a necromancer was to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: get a ghost to stop bothering them.

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Speaker 1: M you know this, these series of steps there were,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's some they're echoed throughout our supernatural fiction today.

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Speaker 1: But one example that instantly comes to mind is the

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Speaker 1: accounts of at least some versions of The Ring. And

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm mainly thinking about the first American remake

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Speaker 1: of it, but in that film alone, you see sort

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Speaker 1: of the three step approach where they're like, Okay, there's

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Speaker 1: some sort of sort of the realization that there's a

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Speaker 1: ghost involved, some sort of a spirit. Okay, what what

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Speaker 1: does the ghost want? They try and answer that question,

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Speaker 1: They try even to get in on the whole, like let's, uh,

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Speaker 1: let's make things right with the ghosts remains. But then

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Speaker 1: the big reveal, of course, is that the ghost isn't

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Speaker 1: going to be satisfied with any of those things. This

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Speaker 1: is one of that that second classification of ghosts, that

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Speaker 1: all it wants is vengeance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe less a ghost and more a demon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The only thing that we'll make it right is

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Speaker 1: to just move on from VHS to some other format,

430
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: and I think that's the other way that's the issue

431
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: was ever defeated.

432
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: So, speaking of classifications of ghosts, another interesting point that

433
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 2: Ogden raises in this article is the claim that in

434
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: most Greek and Roman sources there were sort of two

435
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: different modes in which ghosts could appear. And he does

436
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: not use these terms. I just made these up to

437
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: kind of help us sort through what he's saying. I'm

438
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 2: gonna call these categories the wild ghost and the dial

439
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: a ghost. So a wild ghost is off leash. It

440
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: is a dangerous, terrifying, and uncontrollable entity that cannot be

441
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: reasoned with. This is the ghost that haunts someone by

442
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: coming into their life or by haunting a place unbidden

443
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: and attacking a person repeatedly. This is a ghost you

444
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: cannot talk to and you can't like bargain with in

445
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: this state.

446
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: All right, So this is very much like the wrathful

447
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: ghost Samara or Sadako from the Rain or from various

448
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: other treatments.

449
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but I think this is also just any

450
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: loose ghost. It's a ghost that's haunting a person and

451
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 2: you have not initiated contact with through a necromantic ritual.

452
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: So slimer also fits this classification.

453
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's the wild ghost. Meanwhile, what I would

454
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: call the dial a ghost is a ghost called up

455
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: through the rituals of necromancy. And so this might be

456
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: somebody who's just otherwise resting comfortably in the underworld. You

457
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: call them up through necromancy to get some information from them,

458
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: or it could be one and the same as the

459
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: wild ghost, but when you contact them through necromancy, apparently

460
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: the interaction is of a different sort. An entity called

461
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,719
Speaker 2: up through necromantic rituals is open to conversation and exchange.

462
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: And I thought that it's interesting that these ghosts that

463
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: there can be overlaps. The same exact ghost, depending on circumstances,

464
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: might be a wild, uncontrollable force that visits you in

465
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: the night, in your nightmares, or you know, haunts your

466
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: home or haunts a place and terrifies people and just

467
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 2: keeps attacking and there's nothing you can do. But you

468
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: talk to the exact same ghost, same soul through an

469
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 2: oracle of the dead, or by going to a tomb

470
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: and raising them up or whatever, then you can talk

471
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: to the ghost to figure out what's going on and

472
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: figure out what can be done to make it go away.

473
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: Interesting. So now this makes me wonder if if if

474
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: the ring tape, uh, the VHS tape is actually could

475
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: if you could actually think of it as sort of

476
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: automated and automated necromatic rite. It is a necromatic artifact

477
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: that does all of the ritual, but in a way

478
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: that requires less effort on the part of the person

479
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: using it.

480
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm trying to get there with you. Is can

481
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: the can the girl in the ring ever be reasoned

482
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: with or bargained with?

483
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: Height No? I don't think so, not any version I've

484
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: seen you can try. And in terms of what kind

485
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: of information she has to relay, I don't know. Maybe

486
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: it is relayed through the tape. You know, these these visions.

487
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: Just because a ghost is going to tell you stuff

488
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it has to make sense, right, I mean

489
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: they may speak cryptically, and then of course you get

490
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: that phone call which just says that you're going to

491
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: die in seven days, which isn't very helpful, but is

492
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: a communication, okay.

493
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: So often gives an example in this article of the

494
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: Roman emperor Nero's mother Agrippina. So. According to this story,

495
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: he murders his own mother. And by the way, the

496
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 2: stories of her murder are very elaborate and conflicting and

497
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 2: all that, so who knows what really happened in history there.

498
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 2: But this is again, this is how the story is

499
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: understood by like Roman historians writing the lives of the emperors.

500
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: So the ghost repeatedly starts attacking Nero in the night,

501
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: terrifying him with these visions and nightmares. So Nero sought

502
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,719
Speaker 2: the help of a Persian magas to call up her

503
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: spirit so that he could make peace with it.

504
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 1: Quick note on magi and vegas Is of Persia. I

505
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: was reading a little bit about this. There's an episode

506
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: from the Sasanian Empire where the first Sasanian emperor we've

507
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: discussed him before, Adashir, the first, upon ascending the throne,

508
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: called on all the respected magi of the empire to

509
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: gather and the total was said to be something like

510
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: eighty thousand. So I was reading more about this, And

511
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: when we talk about the magi, we're talking about the

512
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: Masidian magi, who were a priestly order of Zoroastrianism, so

513
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: they were not expressly necromancers. They were into all sorts

514
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: of things, you know, looking to the stars and so forth.

515
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: But apparently some of their writings covered communication with the

516
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: untethered spirits of the dead.

517
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay, but to come back to this idea of like

518
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: ghosts that haunt people and sort of can't be reasoned

519
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: with when they appe here for hauntings. But then you

520
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 2: can reason with them if you do a ritual with

521
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: like a megas or some other type of or an

522
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: oracle of the dead, some kind of necromantic ritual, then

523
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: you can figure out what they want. It strikes me

524
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: that this duality does still appear in some of the

525
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 2: ghost stories of today. Like you were talking about Rob,

526
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 2: I mean, I think more generally about you know, a

527
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: story where the ghost is just a purely bad vibe.

528
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: During the direct hauntings, it just appears to scare people,

529
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 2: but in the context of a seance, the same ghost

530
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 2: can be intelligibly conversed with.

531
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in a way, it's almost like, Okay,

532
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: this individual ghost or mortal is causing problems. Let's get

533
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: serious about this. Let's have some legal proceedings, you know,

534
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: the seance, the ritual of necromancy, whatever the details are,

535
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: it is like, okay, let's bust out some rule based

536
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: discussion of what's going on here and get to a solution.

537
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: I think that's a good way thinking about it. In

538
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: a way this, you know, these rituals might be kind

539
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 2: of like instituting a court proceeding in which the ghost

540
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: must appear.

541
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, or it's a it's like an intervention in some

542
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: respects as well, Like the ghost shows up and is like,

543
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: all right, time to like terrify some people, and then

544
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: the ghost really, oh my goodness, this is one of

545
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: those again, they're going to try and reason with me,

546
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: all right.

547
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: So anyway, all that falls into this category of information

548
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 2: about what could be done to appease or send away

549
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 2: the ghost, a very common aim of Greek and Roman necromancy. Sometimes,

550
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: though necromancy would just as you alluded to earlier, rob

551
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: would be used to extract information from a ghost that

552
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: the spirit of a person could practically be expected to

553
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: know if consciousness continues after death. For example, somebody hides

554
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: some money then dies without telling you where they hit it,

555
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: you might need to call up a necromancer to get

556
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: that information. And there are stories exactly like this. Though

557
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: this one kind of puzzled me because I was thinking

558
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: with specific practical information like the location of a stash

559
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: of silver or something. I wonder how the necromancer dealt

560
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 2: with what I would assume was their general inability to

561
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,239
Speaker 2: provide useful, correct answers, you know, like maybe that have

562
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: to be very vague or to be fair, when we

563
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: get to discussing what the actual rituals were in a minute,

564
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: maybe it actually wasn't on the necromancer to give the information.

565
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would have to have some sort of an

566
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: out like that, right, because again assuming that the next

567
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: going with the assumption here that the necromancer cannot actually

568
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: speak to the dead, and that in some of these

569
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: other cases is essentially providing a like a therapeutic service.

570
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: You know, that they are, you know, guiding the recipient

571
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: through some sort of a you know, essentially a religious

572
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: ritual to put them at ease to you know, to

573
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: to help them honor the deceased, or whatever the specifics

574
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: might be. But in this case, yeah, if there's an

575
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: expectation of hidden treasure at the end of it, you know,

576
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: the necromancer would be a fool to put themselves on

577
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: the line like that, right.

578
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: They won't say it's under the third bush in the garden,

579
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: because then you go dig it up and then be like, well,

580
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 2: it's not there. Why'd you tell me that?

581
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd have to put a spin out, like the

582
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: true hidden treasure was your friendship in life with this person,

583
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: and that's what they value and therefore they don't want

584
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: to tell you where the money is.

585
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: But again, we'll get to something in a minute that

586
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: I think might actually shed some light on this and

587
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: show how the person who was sort of the guide

588
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: for this process would be off the hook. So but again,

589
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: what would you be looking for from speaking to a ghost?

590
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: You would get this practical information the dead person took

591
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: with them to the grave, like you know, where did

592
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: you hide something or anything like that. Also, if the

593
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: person was a murder victim, they might you might consult

594
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: them to find out who killed you.

595
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: Oh, this is a classic one, and this puts a

596
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: different kind of pressure on the role of the necromancer here,

597
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: or the alleged necromancer, because of course what they say could,

598
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: depending on the society and the legal system, be in

599
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: it as proof of an individual's guilt in a murder.

600
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: But apart from all this stuff, where again, if you

601
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: assume that consciousness actually continues after death, you could assume

602
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: the person would know all these things? What about this

603
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: other stuff like why ghosts would know the future? We've

604
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: looked at multiple examples of necromancy being used to consult

605
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: spirits on what's going to happen in the future. It

606
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 2: turns out Greek and Roman necromancers also consulted ghosts for

607
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: info about the future, for example, to predict the outcome

608
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: of wars or power struggles. A common thing people want

609
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: to know, why would the dead have the ability to

610
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 2: predict the future? Well, Ogden actually does answer this question.

611
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: He says, we don't know for sure, but there are

612
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: a couple of big possibilities. Ogden writes, quote. One possibility

613
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: is that some ancients believed the future was prepared in

614
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: the realm of the dead. When Aeneas descends into the

615
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: underworld in Virgil's Aeneid, he witnesses the marshaling of the

616
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: souls of Rome's future heroes, even though they had not

617
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 2: yet been born. Okay, so that's one, Ogden goes on quote.

618
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 2: Another possibility, many ancients, Plato among them, believed that a

619
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: pure soul, one separated from the dull matter of the body,

620
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: had great powers of perception and could understand the hidden

621
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: processes of the universe. Okay, so that sort of helps

622
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: answer my question if Ogden's correct about these two explanations. Here,

623
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: the dead know the future because one of two things.

624
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: Either the future is written in advance, so we are

625
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: faded for certain things to happen to us, and the

626
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 2: writing of the future takes place in the nether world,

627
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: so dead people in hades are essentially hanging out in

628
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: the writer's room for the upcoming season of the show.

629
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 2: Or the second explanation is if you subscribe to something

630
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: like platonism, soul's rule and bodies drool, and your current

631
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: knowledge of the future is limited by the extent to

632
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: which your body drools. Liberated souls, no longer attached to

633
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 2: to flesh, are sort of like gods in a way.

634
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 2: They have extra powers of knowledge and perception, and we

635
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: would all have these powers if we were liberated from

636
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: the confines of our bodies.

637
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: That one's in a really interesting because it also brings

638
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: up some of the other examples of ancestor veneration and

639
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: ancestor worship, you know, where it's like, this was a

640
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: real person in a given society or a given family,

641
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: what have you? They have died, and now they are

642
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 1: still real, but in a different way and perhaps held

643
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: to a like a put on a pedestal. You know,

644
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: they're they're, they they're they're they're given over to certain

645
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: divine characteristics, even if they are not thought of expressly

646
00:35:52,400 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: as a guy.

647
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: All right, So that's Ogden's opinion about why ghosts would

648
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 2: be expected to know the future and be able to

649
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: answer your questions about it. But another interesting thing brought

650
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: up in this article is he talks about location where

651
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: would Greco Roman necromancy take place? And it seems there

652
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 2: are two main answers for this. One is at the

653
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: tomb of the deceased. And now that one makes sense

654
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: if you're trying to call up a ghost of a

655
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: dead person, where better to go than to their grave

656
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: and do some kind of ritual there makes sense. But

657
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: the second, and I got really interested in this, was

658
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 2: that there were essentially some geographically identified special places where

659
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: you could communicate with the dead. These were known as

660
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: oracles of the dead. Now where would those be? Well,

661
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: Ogden says, ancient sources tell us about four of them.

662
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: There are two in modern day Greece, one in Italy,

663
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: and one in Turkey, and I did some additional digging

664
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: for background information about a couple of these. So the

665
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 2: first one he mentions is in northwest Greece, and this

666
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: is what's known as the Acharusian Lake. So this is

667
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 2: a lake, or perhaps I've seen in some sources mentioned

668
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: as a swamp, a lake or a series of light

669
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: lakes or swamp connected to the river Akron, which that

670
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: river itself is very important in Greek visions of the afterlife,

671
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 2: so there's a motif present in Greek and Roman mythology

672
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: that the dead have to be carried across a river

673
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: by a ghastly ferryman in order to reach Hades or

674
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: the underworld. And in some sources this river is named

675
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: as Styx, but in others it is the Akron.

676
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: If memory serves, both names as separate rivers are used

677
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: in Dante's Inferno.

678
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: Oh that may be right, I don't recall, but interestingly,

679
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: I wanted to note this, so Akron, the Akron is

680
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: at least one definite real river in northwest Greece, so

681
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: there's just the Akron. You can go to that river now,

682
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: whereas the sticks at Core seems to be a mythological

683
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: river in the underworld, but at some point it was

684
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: also associated I think with various real waterways as well,

685
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: such as like a stream in Arcadia, but the Akron

686
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: seems more concretely geographically located on this world. But anyway,

687
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: the story goes, so one of these lakes or swamps

688
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 2: connected to the Akron, known as Akarusia. There was a

689
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: lakeside district in which you could call up the spirits

690
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: of the dead, and this was possible because of the

691
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 2: way that the river and the lake were somehow physically

692
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: connected to Hades and Rob. I've attached a couple of

693
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: pictures I found online of the Akron River for you

694
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 2: to look at here. You know, it's weird. I wonder

695
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 2: if it's just an example of psychological priming, because I

696
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: was expecting these to be associated with the underworld. But

697
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 2: they do look kind of spooky to me.

698
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, I'm not sure how much of this is

699
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: just me going into it with the expectation here, but yeah,

700
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: in the first shot there's this impression of narrowing, and

701
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm kind of reminded of, you know,

702
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: the classic painting The Island of the Dead there a

703
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: little bit, but I could be reading too much into it.

704
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: I mean a river at the at the very least,

705
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: a river is This is a is a moving thing

706
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: that goes somewhere else. So it's easy to approach it

707
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: and think of it as this thing that connects to

708
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: some distant land, because it literally does.

709
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 2: That's a good point, okay. So second place for the

710
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: Oracle of the Dead. This is way over on the

711
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: western coast of the Italian Peninsula. This is Lake of

712
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: Vernas in Campagna. So once again this is a body

713
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: of water associated with the entrance to the underworld. In

714
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: this case, I thought it was geologically interesting because a

715
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Vernas is the flooded crater of an extinct volcano, so

716
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: this is in a region somewhat close to Naples. Allegedly,

717
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: the Lake of Verness emitted fumes of sulfur sometimes, which

718
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: could be why it was thought of as the entrance

719
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: to the realm of the dead. And contrary to what

720
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: you might expect. You know, you might think, okay, so

721
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: this lake is associated with the underworld, then maybe it's

722
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: just this creepy, abandoned place with nothing going on. But no, no, no.

723
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: The area around Averness was developed. It had temples, and

724
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: bathhouses and all sorts of stuff. In fact, in his article,

725
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: Ogden tells what I thought was a very funny story

726
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: about a British archaeologist who thought he had identified the

727
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: ruins of the Avernus oracle of the Dead in a

728
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 2: Roman era tunnel near the lake came up with this

729
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: whole scenario about how the oracle worked. Ogden writes, quote

730
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: he speculated that visitors to the oracle were led through

731
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 2: dark tunnels and across a hot, sulfurous spring that doubled

732
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: as the river Sticks. Priestly assistants, he suggested, used lamps

733
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: and wooden shadow puppets to project ghostly figures onto a

734
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: wall in a kind of ancient vision of a Disneyland

735
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: haunted house. So, okay, that sounds very interesting, but it

736
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 2: turns out no, this tunnel was actually a service tunnel

737
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: for a Roman bathhouse. And then there are a couple

738
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: of other sites of oracles of the dead that are

739
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,439
Speaker 2: that were less well known. One is heraclea Pontica. That's

740
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: the one on the south coast of the Black Sea,

741
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 2: up on the north of what is today Turkey, or

742
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: at the time would have been Anatolia. This is the

743
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: place that Pausanias went to in that legend, and then

744
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: the other one, the fourth one is Cape Tynron, which

745
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 2: is down at the southern tip of the Peloponnesis, And

746
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about the Black Sea location, but I

747
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: was looking up Cape Tynern and this one was also,

748
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 2: according to some ancient sources, a gateway to the underworld.

749
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: So it seems what a lot of these Oracle of

750
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: the Dead locations have in common is they are thought

751
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: to be in some sense of physical entry way into

752
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 2: the underworld.

753
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not just a matter of having the

754
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 1: rituals or the expertise. It's like, are you in close

755
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: enough proximity to the underworld for that signal to reach them?

756
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: Now. In the last episode, we talked about those ancient

757
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: Mesopotamian tablets that shared specifics of their necromancy rituals, which

758
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: involved incantations, so you had special words to say and

759
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: appeals to specific gods who would sort of oversee the proceedings.

760
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: Like one of the tablets specified that you know, this

761
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 2: ritual is taking place under the auspices of the god Shamash.

762
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: And then they also had recipes for potions and concoctions

763
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: to make out of all kinds of stuff, you know,

764
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: dust from across roads, the end of a frog's intestines, crab, tallow,

765
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 2: hair of a dog, and a bunch of other stuff.

766
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 2: And in one case, I guess my favorite thing was

767
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 2: the ritual that involved a skull that you would address

768
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: as oh, sk skull of skulls, and the implication is

769
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 2: that the ghost would come into the skull and speak

770
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: out of it somehow. In this case, I wonder what

771
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: literally happened during these rituals, by the way, did I

772
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: think we don't really know, but I have to wonder, like,

773
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: did the skull somehow quote speak? If so, how was

774
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: that accomplished?

775
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, because on one hand, you could have a scenario

776
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: where some manner of puppetry was even utilized. But I

777
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: guess perhaps more believable, at least by modern standards, would

778
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: be just sort of a physical focus of what's happening.

779
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: So perhaps the necromancer is listening to the skull and

780
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: that becomes the object of focus during the proceedings.

781
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: Right, So a question is do we have physical descriptions

782
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: of what would happen during these rituals during the ghost interactions?

783
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: For Greco Roman necromancy, and the answer is yes, we

784
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: do have some descriptions. One example Ogden gives that I

785
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 2: thought was interesting as the Greek playwright Escalus, in a

786
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: fragment of an otherwise lost work, describes a scene at

787
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 2: a lakeside oracle of the dead where blood from a

788
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: black sheep is poured into the water, and the implication

789
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: is that the ghosts would come up from the underworld

790
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: through the waters of the lake and drink the sheep's blood.

791
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: And this is interesting in that it connects to that

792
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 2: scene in Homer where it's implied that or not even implied,

793
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: it's explicitly stated that giving a ghost sheep's blood or

794
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: rams blood to drink would make it sort of temporarily

795
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: beefed up enough to party, Like now it can talk.

796
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 2: And I think this is really interesting, this idea that

797
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: you had to feed blood to a ghost so that

798
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: it could I don't know, become substantial or empowered enough

799
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: to interact with you.

800
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's the dead or lacking blood, and

801
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: give them blood and they can they can do living

802
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: things again, at least for a very short period of time.

803
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 2: But finally, coming back to that issue of like what

804
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: form does the delivery of information from the dead take

805
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 2: in these Greco Roman rituals, Like, how does the necromancer

806
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: have to deliver the information? And in that case, how

807
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: do they deal with like the information when you know,

808
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: not being specific or accurate. Well, Ogden says that the

809
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 2: contact with the ghost at an oracle of the dead

810
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 2: was done through dream incubation. Oh, this makes sense of things, right.

811
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 2: So this is similar to what was done at multiple

812
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: kinds of temples and shrines in the ancient world. One

813
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: example we've talked about on the show before was the

814
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: shrines of the healing god Asclepias, where you would want

815
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: to get healed from a disease or something troubling your body,

816
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: and you would to seek a cure. You might go

817
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: to a shrine of Asclepias and you would do some

818
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: kind of ritual, probably make a sacrifice or pay a

819
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: fee or something, and then you would go to sleep

820
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: and then you would have a dream there where Asclepias

821
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 2: would deliver to you information in the dream about what

822
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: you could do to cure your disease.

823
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

824
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: In the case of the necromancer oracles, you would do

825
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: the prescribed rituals. You probably make some kind of sacrifice.

826
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: It seems very likely it might involve like a spilling

827
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: of some kind of animal blood to feed to the ghost,

828
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: and then you would go to sleep in the designated area,

829
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: and then the ghost would come to you in a

830
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: dream and tell you what you needed to know. And

831
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: this is interesting in multiple ways. Number One, it highlights

832
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 2: this thing in ancient Greek thinking where sleep was sort

833
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: of a state thought of as in some ways analogous

834
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 2: to or half way to death. So you're sort of

835
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: going out of the land of the living into this

836
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: half dead state of sleep in order to meet the ghost,

837
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 2: you know, as it comes out to deliver you information.

838
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: But then also in a practical sense, I could see

839
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 2: how this would mean that the priest or whatever, the

840
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: professional working at the oracle of the Dead is doing,

841
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: like they're not personally on the hook for like giving

842
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: you the information you need. And it might be in

843
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: some cases they did provide information, but it seems like

844
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 2: in a lot of cases they use dream incubation where

845
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,160
Speaker 2: it's all internal to you.

846
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like they're just helping to facilitate the conversation

847
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: and then the conversation is left to you and your

848
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: dream state, and I guess in a more like you know,

849
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: skeptical approach here. Yeah, they're simply priming your brain for

850
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: some sort of a dream that could be either in

851
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: and of itself seemingly meaningful or could be picked apart

852
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,760
Speaker 1: in made meaningful due to the priming. So it's interesting

853
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: how we kind of end up at the end of

854
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: this episode in similar territory to our previous look at

855
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: different cultures and times in which the dream world was

856
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: given special significance. You know, I mean, I'm not sure

857
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 1: you could necessarily make the case here because again this

858
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: could be maybe thought of as you know, an important right,

859
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: but not like a prime motivator in the trajectory of

860
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: a given culture. But still, you see, like the importance

861
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 1: of the dream space to individuals and trying to figure

862
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 1: out their problems.

863
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and it makes me see another parallel between

864
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: sleep and death here is that it seems like they

865
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: are both states in which people's capacities are to some

866
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: extent diminished but in other ways magnified. You know that,

867
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,919
Speaker 2: like like during sleep you are closer to death, and

868
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 2: so of course you know your your consciousness is diminished

869
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: in a way you of course your your physical potency,

870
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 2: like you're not moving around while you're asleep, you're prone

871
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,439
Speaker 2: and all that, so you are diminished or reduced in

872
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: one extent. But also it is the place where you

873
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: have access to wisdom beyond what's available to your mortal mind.

874
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I can't help but be reminded of

875
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: Freddy Krueger and all of this. It's easy to think

876
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: of Freddy Krueger as a monster, but you know, he's

877
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: a monster in the general sense of the word. But

878
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: he is a ghost. He has a vengeful ghost that

879
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,800
Speaker 1: then appears in your dreams. And I guess by virtue

880
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: of having access to dreams, he has privileged information about individuals.

881
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone ever really asks him for

882
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: advice on anything, though, I.

883
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: Mean it would be funny if you did. I don't

884
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 2: know what kind of advice he would give.

885
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 1: I mean, that could be a whole sequel right there

886
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: where somebody or some group or like, look, we need

887
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 1: we need the help of someone with access to dreams.

888
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 1: I guess specifically teenager dreams. I guess maybe this would

889
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: make sense for if you were designing a product to

890
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: appeal to teenagers, they're like who knows teenagers. Freddy Krueger,

891
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: you know what's cool?

892
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Oh, to get advice on sweaters, it would

893
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 2: be like, Freddy Krueger, is this sweater cool? Is this

894
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: what's going to be hip this season? And he's always

895
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: just like Green and Red, that's what's going to be in.

896
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: Now he knows it's a classic look and it'll eventually,

897
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: you know, eventually the trends will come back around to it.

898
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: Okay, well in a cap part two right there, I believe.

899
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: So, yeah, we'll be back for at least a third

900
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: episode on necromancy, and in the meantime, reach out to us.

901
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: We'd love to hear your thoughts on these various and

902
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: ancient accounts of necromancier things that could be described as

903
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: necromantic and scope. Also, if you have thoughts in some

904
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: of the more pop culture things that we've mentioned here,

905
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: if you have thoughts on Freddy Krueger, Slimer or the

906
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: Ring certainly right in. I mean, there's ultimately a lot

907
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: you could dissect in the original Ghostbusters where you have

908
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,320
Speaker 1: ghosts that resemble the people as they were in life,

909
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: and then ghosts that no longer look like human beings.

910
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: You also have what ancient Mesopotamian gods entering into the

911
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: picture with their be like servants. So there's a lot

912
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: to unwrap there.

913
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: Many knew what it was to roast in the belly

914
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 2: of a slore that day.

915
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: Indeed, all right, a reminder that's stuff to blow your mind.

916
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 1: Is primarily a science podcast, though of course we get

917
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: into the culture and history as well as especially obvious

918
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 1: in these episodes. We do listener mail episodes on Mondays,

919
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 1: we do a short form monster fact or artifact episode

920
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays we set aside most serious

921
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird movie on Weird

922
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: House Cinema. Oh and one more thing. If you use

923
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: any of the various social media accounts and you follow us,

924
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: you may notice that there's a little more life than those.

925
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: Recently we have some people managing those for us once again.

926
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: And you also might notice some updated photos of me

927
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: and Joe. Well, that's because we visited the Museum of

928
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: Illusions in Atlanta. We were there what Thursday, September twenty first,

929
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. We have some great new photos. I

930
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: recommend that place to anyone who is in Atlanta looking

931
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: to engage with some illusions. It's a very fun place.

932
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If

933
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: you would like to get in touch with us with

934
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

935
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

936
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 2: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

937
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: Mind dot com.

938
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

939
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

940
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:50,440
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.