1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: What's up, everybody, And welcome to episode seventy of The 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: Hunting Collective. I'm Been O'Brien today I am joined by 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: the great and powerful Ryan cal Callahan, host of Cow's 4 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: Weeken Review, among many other things. And we're talking about 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 1: animals and the rights and whether they should have them 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: and what they should be afforded and why. And we're 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: having that conversation because I traveled to Berkeley a few 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: weeks back to track down what I hoped to be 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: too really enlightening conversations, and I wanted to My goal 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: was to speak to an animal rights activist that was 11 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: deep into that community and also a vegan who was 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: deep into that community. And I was able to do both. 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: And the first of those two interviews is with Matt Johnson, 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: who was a spokesman for Direct Action Everywhere, which is 15 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: the animal rights group you'll hear more about coming up shortly. 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: It is very impactful to me, very interesting conversation. I 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: will not lie. It was very confusing at points, and 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: I came out with a different perspective, uh and maybe 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 1: less enlightened that I thought I might be. But you'll 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: hear all of it coming up soon. But before we 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: get into that rain gear. A lot of people have 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: been asking lately about rain gear, and it's something when 23 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: we do pack dumps here to meet either people are 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: asking about all the time. So I figured why not 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: check out first Lights rain gear. And so you have 26 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: a couple of versions. You have the storm Light rain gear. 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: In fact, I carry with me pretty much everywhere I go, 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: the very pacable, very light in fact ultra light vapor 29 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: storm Light ultra light rain Jack. I carry that with me, 30 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: and I carry this this same version of their pants 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: for black and net rain In fact, I was hunting 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: in Hawaii last year and we were hunting kind of 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: near uh An active volcano, and this volcano would create 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: its own rain clouds a couple of times a day, 35 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: and you can see it creating these rain clouds with 36 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: the steam, and that rain cloud would eventually matriculate over 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: to where we were and it would rain on us 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: pretty much three or four times during a day. And 39 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: this is where I put that vapor storm Light ultra 40 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: Light rain jack to the test, and it passed with 41 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: flying colors. And it's just the answer to the question 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: of should you pack a rain gear, how much and when? 43 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: If you're going to a place where it might rain, 44 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: you gotta have this. It's essential for your pack. If 45 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: you're going to a place where it's it's definitely going 46 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: to rain, it's going to be cold, So you're going 47 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: to Kodiak Island, then you want to look at like 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: the seek Storm tight rain Jacket, things like that, a 49 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: little more heavy duty for a little more heavy duty circumstance. 50 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: So go to first light dot com and check out 51 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: those things. And so, without further ado, we're gonna talk 52 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: animal rights in this podcast. Enjoy. I guess it grew 53 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: up on an all day road. A bat'll do the medal. 54 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: I always did what I've told until I found out 55 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: that my brand new glows a game second hand from 56 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: the rich kids next door. And I grew up, Bath, 57 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up. I mean, they have a 58 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen. 59 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: And now I just wanted through a real bad dream 60 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: of being a lack of coming a part of the seams. 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: But thank you, Jack Daniel No No seven, Dennis, Hey everybody, 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: it's been O'Brien's. Another episode of The Hunting Collective coming 63 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: at seven sixteen nineteen you're gonna be listening to this one. 64 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: And I'm here this week with Ryan cal Callahan. Hey Cal, 65 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: what's happening? Oh, you know, it's getting through UM. Were 66 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: just recorded a few things. Lou's life taken forever, living 67 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: the dream, that's that was kind of your response. Oh, 68 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, just getting through, just getting getting through the territory. 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: As I like to say, Well, we're here on an 70 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: interesting day. This is the day where you're going to 71 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: hear the much discussed interview that I did with a 72 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: fella named Matt Johnson. And Matt Johnson is the UM 73 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: Press coordinator and also spokesman for a group called Direct 74 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: Direct Action Everywhere, and it's best described as an animal 75 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: rights organization. They're best known for their investigative work in 76 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: the factory farms and disrupting UM talks by Jeff Bezos 77 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: and getting felony charges. In fact, the first time I 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: met with Matt and his friend Priya, who was one 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: of the founders of Direct Action Everywhere, one of the 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: first things that came up in conversation was that Priya 81 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: was facing several different felony charges for her activism. One 82 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: of those was when she jumped up on stage with 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: Amazon's Jeff Bezos to protest factory farming conditions, and then 84 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: she was charged for interrupting the talk. She faces now 85 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: fell any charges that could put her in jail for 86 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: up to ten years. And so one of the things, Kali, 87 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: that I first struck Jeff Bezos on a factory farm 88 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: seems that way, or many farms he apparently the there's 89 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: California poultry farm that supplies Amazon that she was very 90 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: upset about. She said, I have been inside of Amazon's 91 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: chicken farms where animals are criminally abused. She said, Jeff, please, 92 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: you're the richest man on the planet. You can help 93 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: the animals, That's what she said. Well, I'm assuming that's 94 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: on stage. Did he say I didn't get to be 95 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: the richest man on the planet by helping animals? How 96 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: do you get to be rich these days? You abuse 97 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: animals by by helping very few animals? Um, yeah, no, 98 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: that's not Yeah. Chickens and chickens are gross, man, They're 99 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: little little dinosaurs, evil, evil little dinosaurs. Yeah, chicken chicken 100 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: farms aren't aren't pretty things. There's definitely some work that 101 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: can be done there. Yeah, And I would say that 102 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: Priya and Matt are part of this organization that would 103 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: call themselves whistleblowers. Often, very often they're investing investigations are 104 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: pointed towards factory farms, which we can start off by saying, 105 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: you and I both aren't big fans back factory farms. Least, 106 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: that's my guess. Oh yeah, man, No, I think there's 107 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: there's a better way out there for sure. For sure. 108 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: I mean, can it's not gonna flip light switch right 109 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: because you're getting this argument of like, well, this is 110 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: how much it takes to efficiently feed people, and this 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: is the only way to do that. I think we're 112 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: all smart folks. You can figure out a better way. 113 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: I would agree um and Priya and Matt and their 114 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: group feel like they've they've found a better way. But 115 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: just is a way to color my experiences. I was 116 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: in Berkeley's Annie Daane, Berkeley, and I met pre and 117 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: Matt at a restaurant called the Butcher's Son that's located 118 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: there in Berkeley. It is what they call, at least 119 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: these folks call a vegan delicatessent, but they also call 120 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: it a vegan butcher shop, which confused me. From the outset. 121 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: What do you feel? Does that confuse you? Cal a 122 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: vegan butcher shop, I guess yeah, butcher and butcher ring 123 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: is a word that we've reserved for meat. Yes, so 124 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: they have things like fried chicken, bagel, witch steak, and 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: egg HOGI the original chicken grinder, which is what I had, 126 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: chicken palm, buffalo, bacon, ranch, fried chicken, barbecue, pulled pork, 127 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: b lt lemon, chicken, can go on, lemon, chicken, pesto. 128 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: Are all this has chicken? None of this has meat? Yeah, 129 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: none of this has meat at all. I had this 130 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: really bad joke. I actually my cousin used to do 131 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: a lot of stand up comedy, um, you know, open 132 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: my Mike Knights stuff back in his college days. I 133 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: gave him this joke on you know things like that 134 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: where I just don't feel so like if if that 135 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: part of not eating meat, if it was set up 136 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: to like, listen, I desperately want to eat meat, but 137 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: my convictions are such that I have to get as 138 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: close to it as possible without eating meat. And that 139 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: was like the mantra, the public message, I can make 140 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: room for that type of establishment. However, that that is 141 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: not the messenging that I hear the most um by 142 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: far and away. It's like, no, eating meat is wrong, 143 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: then why do you go through great lengths and effort 144 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: to transform what you do want to eat into something 145 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: that resembles don't want to eat the thing that you 146 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: don't want to eat. So, and this terrible joke that 147 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: involved um, you know, like sexual preference, I ought to 148 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: be good and uh it was like, no, no, no, 149 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: that's not what I'm into at all. But excuse me 150 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: while I eat this thing that resembles that thing. But 151 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: just so there's no confusion, I'm not into that. Cousin 152 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: on the college circuit did well with that. Yeah, And 153 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: it's just like the righteous indignation right of like, no, 154 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: it's wrong to eat chicken. What are you eating? I'm 155 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: eating a chicken parmesan sandwich. And here's the thing that 156 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: maybe was the most worrisome to me, because there are 157 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: some ingredients in these dishes or sandwiches that are unlisted. 158 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: Not only are they unlistened from the title of the sandwich, 159 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 1: they're listed within when you look at the description on 160 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: the menu. And this is all I have to go on. 161 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: I've never met the owner of this place like usually 162 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: when you go to a place, it has all the 163 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: ingredients listed of the of the meal you're about to eat, 164 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: So they have a steak bond me. It says served 165 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: on a soft hogi with seasoned steak, sarata, mayo, cilantro, garlic, 166 00:10:54,760 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: fish sauce, fresh alpino, shredded savoy, cabbage, and care it's 167 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 1: a cucumber. It says seasons steak in the ingredients list, 168 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: right next to things like cilantro, which are actual things. 169 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: It is the the most confusing. Now, I asked another 170 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: guy that you'll hear on the podcast next week. His 171 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: name is Robert C. Jones. He's a vegan philosopher and 172 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: you'll hear his kind of I don't want to spoil it, 173 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: but you'll hear his reasoning for why someone might do 174 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: this just as just to boil it down. He feels 175 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: like you're changing what the word chicken means. If you're 176 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: using it to describe things that aren't actually what we 177 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: need we today understand his chicken. You are functionally changing 178 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: what chicken is. Everyone eats chicken, but if chicken isn't 179 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: just chicken, then that that opens up the definition of 180 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: the term what people might accept as chicken. It's interesting 181 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: chickens the most consumed protein in the US, and so 182 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: that was his explation. Ghost is the most consumed protein worldwide. 183 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: I think that's what kind brings these conversations nowadays, Now 184 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: that Cole's weaken review is going your interjections of like 185 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: really hot facts is going up. I'm gonna say tenfold, 186 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: maybe twentyfold. It's impressive. Yeah, I'm gonna start hiring myself 187 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: out as like a ringer for pub trivia, like you 188 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 1: cover all my cocktails and or you just come over 189 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: to people if if somebody's having a boring family member over, 190 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: or like having a boring family get together, cow will 191 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: come to your house, sit at the dinner table and 192 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: just say, did you know every once in a while 193 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: in the in the conversation, you don't have I know 194 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: at all, uncle, I can be that know at all uncle. 195 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: He can a little price a hundred bucks an hour. 196 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: It's easy anyways that that that this is how I 197 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: was first introduced to these folks. Nice people. Let me 198 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: just say, Matt Johnson and Priya I don't know her 199 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: last name. We had a nice lunch. Like they I 200 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: ate the chicken grind your sandwich. It tasted like a 201 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: sandwich with stuff on it that looked like meat. And 202 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: the biggest thing I thought as I was eating this, 203 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: and regular listeners to the Old Show will know this, 204 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: that my wife and I had this thing where she 205 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: was asking for more white meat. And so then I 206 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: made this mission to kill ten turkeys a year because 207 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: I felt like, after some calculations, that that would be 208 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: enough white meat for us to to carry on through 209 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 1: the year without having to buy some other white meat 210 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: at the store, because I'm pretty um dedicated to not 211 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: buying meat from the store were store bought meat of 212 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: any kind. And so I just thought, well, I would 213 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: rather eat this pot chicken that was in this chicken 214 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: grinder than some factory farms produce meat. I would much 215 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: I would eat this before that because I would feel 216 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: better about it. So the point I made to them, 217 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: and I made it to Robert Jones as well, and 218 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: you're here next week, is that I would rather you 219 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: just call us what it is so then I could 220 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: better understand it and it could be better useful in 221 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: my life, because I would rather eat fode chicken, wheat 222 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: filler or whatever this was. Because it doesn't say on 223 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: the menu what it was, say there was. It says 224 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: there's soy and wheat in it and tree nut treat nut. 225 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: I would rather have that than some factory from chicken. Yeah, 226 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: but it's very confusing it. Yeah. Man, that's kind of 227 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: been the you know, burr under my saddle on this 228 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: stuff is like, if you're real proud of your life choices, 229 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: why are they masked in things that you apparently despise? 230 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: And I'm telling you that Burger King's getting a chicken sandwich, 231 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: he knows it. And Chick fil A there's a picture 232 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: of a chicken on the bag, so there's no way 233 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: you can miss that in this. I looked on their website. 234 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: I looked at all the information I could find about 235 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: a Butcher's the Butcher's Vegan sun dot com. I went 236 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: all over that thing, and I'm trying to find where 237 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: they list what the actual chicken is made of. It's 238 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: not there. It lists grinder meat one time, and a 239 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: list of the allergens being soy, wheat and tree nut. 240 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: Like I said earlier there, but I didn't say what's 241 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: what the chicken is? So I feel like I thought 242 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: going to Berkeley would be strange because this is just 243 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: not It's kind of the epicenter of a of what 244 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: I of a worldview I don't know intimately that maybe 245 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: I don't agree with, but at the very least it 246 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: seems strange to me. And this was one of the 247 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: first interactions I had kind of with this core ideology, 248 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: and mid threw me for a loop straight off. Didn't 249 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: really understand what I was looking at, what I was eating, 250 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: or whether I was missing something at the core of 251 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: this that they were seeing that I was not. But 252 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: I never did get much of an answer. Is it 253 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: all right? If I had play a minor devil's advocate here? Please? Second, 254 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: please Phil, I think, I mean, I think it's clear, 255 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: like a like a tongue in cheek kind of clever 256 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: way to bridge that gap for people who look at 257 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: a cube of tofu and kind of I don't think. 258 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to put that in my body. I 259 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: don't know, you know, it looks, it looks funky. Okay, 260 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: So we have this other these other quote unquote meat products, 261 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: and we're going to call them chicken and steak or whatever. 262 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: And I think if you put that on your menu, 263 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: and that's the the the the name of the item. Okay, 264 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: I think that's funny. But I think that you should 265 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: be able to, like you said, when you tried to 266 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: dig a little deeper to look into what these products 267 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: actually were. Then I think it should be crystal clear 268 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: up front. They should be like, Okay, this thing that 269 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: we're calling chicken parm this is what's actually in it. 270 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: I thought for sure I was missing something. For sure 271 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: I was missing the point because there is this you 272 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: know I've had. We used to get these giant puffball mushrooms. 273 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: Um during uh UM branding. We had this least property 274 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: and we it grew these huge, like pumpkin sized, puffball 275 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: mushrooms and we'd cut those into steaks and you'd have 276 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: like a mushroom steak. And so there's kind of a 277 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: bridge to that gap. But you're not like, but what 278 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: is the mushroom steak? It's it's a mushroom. That's that's 279 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: that's what it is. Right. And if you have you know, 280 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: they have like the Portobello burger right places, Yeah, I 281 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: get behind that, no problem. Ye take those Portobellos, fill 282 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: them with a bunch of stuff on the grill, you know, 283 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: and make make little um. You can make Paramesan out 284 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: of that. Yeah. Yeah, but nobody's gonna be like, but 285 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: what is the mushroom part. It's a mushroom, right, Well, 286 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: maybe that's what you do, but that's what I thought 287 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: to Phil, this is a mushroom sandwich. Yeah. To Phil's point, 288 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this thing and this has to be 289 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: this is like tongue in cheek because this is like 290 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: highlighting it. The great alternatives to the things you really 291 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: love are which I would find value in that, And 292 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: the alternative is a bunch of smoking mirrors. Yeah, why 293 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: the smoken mirrors? I don't understand. I don't get it either, 294 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: Like I mean, that is so confusing to me. So 295 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: that that was the first part of our meeting, and 296 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: when we talked about I learned what was most shocking 297 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: to me is I learned the commitment that these folks 298 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: have too their worldview, in their ideologies, and the commitment 299 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: is such that they're willing, like Priya, to face failing 300 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: any charges. And it seems like a bit of a 301 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: badge of honor in the community that they're in, which ye, 302 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: by point of fact, is a very small honor. Is 303 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: when I have people over and people are like, man, 304 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: this is really good. What is it. I'm like, well, 305 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: this is exactly what it is. Yeah, and I'm super 306 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: excited about it. Like this mountain lion, I did this 307 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: to it, and then I did this to it, and 308 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: now it's on your plate. Well, that's glad you enjoyed 309 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: it to that point. To the point you just made 310 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: we as hunters are like are used to sell alebrating 311 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: the closeness to our food, celebrating the story behind our food, 312 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: celebrating the reality of what it is, the interaction with 313 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: the natural world that led to this food being where 314 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: it is, knowing point to point contact, how where it 315 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: was and how it got to where it is. I'm 316 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: sitting in a place with people that are are espousing 317 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: like a similar belief in the consumption and how their 318 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: consumption affects the world. And they're pulling the wool over 319 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: people's eyes. And this is a very nice establishment and 320 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: it was packed. What was the name the name of 321 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: it again, it's called the Butcher's See. I think a 322 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: better way they could have done it would be to 323 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: have their own names of the items, just flat out 324 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: and tell you what they are or what their names 325 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,239 Speaker 1: for the items are and then have something like they 326 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: could still go and get a legend and they could 327 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: still go with the whole butcher's theme. If you like 328 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: chicken parm then maybe you'll like our boby blue. Like 329 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: I said, I would love to have some blobit he 330 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: blew it all with my wife rather than having to 331 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: go by the produced chicken that I know was raised 332 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: in the If you like an Italian sub then those 333 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: similar flavors and textures you could find and are whatever. Yes, 334 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: well done, Yes exactly. There's another thing you'll hear into 335 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: the podcast with Robert C. Jones where we talk about 336 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: reasoning in and arguing in and debating in good faith. 337 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: The good faith is the point of these very twisted 338 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: up ideological arguments. Always be talking in good faith. Don't 339 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: be trying to trick, pull the wool over, or push 340 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: into a corner. The person that you're debating with her, 341 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: talking with her exchange ideas with I feel like this 342 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: is a pretty bad faith. Well it's interesting too, because man, 343 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: if you're gonna feed masses of people like it doesn't 344 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: matter what like if if soy is the base of 345 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: that that's coming out of cost You know, I mean 346 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: it just it is, and we're seeing it. Like there's 347 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: a lot of cases right now where it's like, oh yeah, 348 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: soy productions up, so we're gonna, you know, slash and 349 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: burn a bunch of rain forest. Um, you know that 350 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: that's an example. I'm sure it's being done elsewhere very 351 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: very well. You know obviously like is udon noodles or 352 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: our sawyer right, and Japanese been doing that for thousands 353 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: and thousands of years. Um. Yeah, I mean this is 354 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: when we go into this again and in some of 355 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: these conversations while I was in Berkeley, but you look 356 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: at avocados in Mexico, you look at keenwa in the Andes. 357 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: There's all these these really really specific, uh examples of 358 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, especially with keenwa and the Andes. 359 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: Like that the market there, they deforced a ton of 360 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: land to plant keenwa, and then the market went bust. 361 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of people that were poor. So, like 362 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: what you said, we're consuming something regardless of whether we 363 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: feel good about it or not, and we are affecting 364 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: someone or something regardless of whether we feel good about 365 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: it or not. And that's when you know the next 366 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: step for me. In this trip, I went to the 367 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: a animal rights activist house, which is basically like a 368 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: six bedroom house in the middle of this pretty quaint 369 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: neighborhood in Berkeley. And in in this house lived oh 370 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: I want to I want to say, eight to ten 371 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: and rights activists that were working for direct action everywhere. 372 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: They introduced me to a couple of dogs. One of 373 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: the dogs was rescued from a dog meat factory in China. 374 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: The other one was rescued from a dog fighting ring. 375 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: And so there's a bunch of animals. There's a bunch 376 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: of people, pretty stuffed into this house and not in 377 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: decent conditions but not great. But they're all they're they're 378 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: all sacrificing, you know, they're living conditions a lot of 379 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: times their freedom, as we've discussed already two to fight 380 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: this fight. And these are not um, baseless, stupid individuals. 381 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,199 Speaker 1: These are intelligent, well meaning people, at least from what 382 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: I could see. They're not crazy. They just have this 383 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: worldview that is so different from ours that it's driving 384 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: them to do things that we would never do and 385 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: to think things that we have never you know, conceived 386 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: of thinking. And being in that does it kind of 387 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: diving into their space. I sat in their house when 388 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: we did an hour and a half podcasts which you'll 389 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: hear after we've done this conversation, and then they streamed 390 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: it live on there um Facebook page, and it was 391 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: a fine conversation. I would say that there are certainly 392 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: some stumbling blocks from me in the way that their 393 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: logic works. And one of the things I believe that 394 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: they do is they have a cascading form of logic 395 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: that as long as you you can continue to back 396 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: them into a corner with counter logic and kind of 397 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: get them, you know, prove disproved some of the points 398 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: they make, but there's always a fallback piece of logic 399 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: that one is shocking and two it is difficult to 400 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: wrangle from most regular folks. And one of those be 401 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: interested to get your thoughts on this cow one of 402 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,479 Speaker 1: those which I am actively going to cut out of 403 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: the conversation you're about to hear. I want to address 404 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: it here just just to let people know why I 405 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: cut it out. It is in the discussion of dominion 406 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: over animals. Animal personal animal personhood is what they're arguing for. 407 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: The animals should have the same rights as people. In fact, 408 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: the constitutional amendment would be past to give animals those rights, 409 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: right to live being the major factor, the right to 410 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 1: not be murdered, things like that. We're talking about dominion. 411 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: I said that the animal. You could not articulate those 412 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: rights to the animal, and it could not articulate those 413 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: rights back to you. You couldn't explain to a bear, 414 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: I'm going to give you rights. That means you have 415 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: to act differently. I'm going to give you rights, so 416 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: you have the right to live, so don't kill any 417 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 1: more bear cups. Like So, we're having discussion on dominion 418 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: over animals. The fallback point when that gets tough, the 419 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: fallback point was just simply this. There are disabled humans 420 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: who can't speak for themselves, and we give them rights. 421 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: They have the right to live, basic human rights is 422 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: what they have. And the question then is why if 423 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: we give disabled humans these basic rights, will we not 424 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: give them extend them to animals. Neither of the two 425 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: can speak for themselves, And so I'm cutting that out. 426 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: I cut that out because I feel like that's a 427 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: very very offensive line to walk. As soon as I 428 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: as soon as I'm starting to counter reason why disabled 429 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: people are like animals or vice versa. It gets it, 430 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: it gets into an almost impossible line of conversation, and 431 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I think that's how it's set up. 432 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: It's set up too slowly back into a corner logically 433 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: a person that's not expecting, and then throw that at them. 434 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: And that's just not something I want to acknowledge the idea, 435 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: but I don't. I'm not going to include that discussion. Right, 436 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: So it's like, so bad you think that disabled people 437 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: should be eaten And they're like, well, no, but you 438 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: said what you said, right, These are logical traps that 439 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: are designed, because that's really all this is. Animal personhood 440 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: is just a logical construct. It's like, can you logically 441 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: argue against what I'm saying? And so all I have 442 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: to do is build in some fail safe, some trap 443 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: doors in the conversation. I pull this lever, You're gonna 444 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: fall through it one way or the other. So I 445 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: felt like that's what that was, and I very much 446 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: left the conversation upset by that, you know, And I 447 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: felt like that was a bad faith move. And I 448 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: don't think there was an intentionally bad faith move. I 449 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: just think because that logic is so connected to their worldview. 450 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: They don't see it the way I saw it. And 451 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: for me to have to stumble through the idea of 452 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: animals versus disabled people, I felt it was an impossible task. 453 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: And it's not respectful to to the folks that are 454 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: disabled or maybe um parents of folks that are, to 455 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: say it's just it's as weird to me. It's as 456 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: weird as eating a chicken grinder that has no chicken 457 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: in it. It's just weird. I do, I do, I 458 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: do get hung up on some of this, and in 459 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, I definitely think that there's 460 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: a lot of folks out there that like to think 461 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: much higher of humans than we probably should be thinking 462 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: of ourselves, you know, like the example of homo erectus. Uh. 463 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: You know, people, it's odd, like the evolution of man. Uh, 464 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: It's like we really like to have like these placeholders, 465 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: right and be like, well, homo erectus it was like 466 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: this and man, we've come so far, but it's almost 467 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,239 Speaker 1: daily that we're learning so much more about at home 468 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: erect us that we have an insane amount in common, right, 469 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: and as well, what about this, this and this. It's 470 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: like oh no, no, no, that you know, look at 471 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: the evolutionary steps here. Okay, that's that's way back then. Yeah, 472 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: well a lot of what was happening way back then 473 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: is still happening right now. We just came up with 474 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: fancier names for it. Yeah, well, you're right, And I 475 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 1: think there's the other constructor that I agree with a 476 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: little bit. But then to your point I diverge from 477 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: that agreement is that the history is progressive. There are 478 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: there's always these ideas that were held is either sacred 479 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: or at least held in in the communal sense, is 480 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: okay that when we look back or like that's insane? 481 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: Why did people ever do that? And so that's kind 482 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: of how they feel about this idea. They feel as 483 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: if they would be akin to someone that was, for example, 484 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: against slavery, when our entire culture was for it. In fact, 485 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: our entire country was built on the idea of enslaving 486 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: other human beings. So I feel like that's how they 487 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: feel that their place in history is their revolutionary the 488 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: revolutionaries in a way that we can't understand because we're 489 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: we're akin to the slavers, saying slavery is just a 490 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: part of our country, this is how it was built, 491 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: why would we get rid of it? And so that 492 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: that's another logical construct that they've built that kind of 493 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: eliminates a lot of Hey, let's argue, what's happened in 494 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: the past two million years of evolution has led to 495 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: where we are today, why would we throw that away? 496 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: So they're, like I said, there's there's arguments that they've 497 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: built that kind of you know, work their way around 498 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: some of these things. But to your point, I think 499 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: two million years of evolution is a lot different than slavery. 500 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot less human of that human condition than 501 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: there is of the hunting or eating meat human condition. 502 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: So it's those things that's not apples to apples, but 503 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: it is a way to kind of get around that 504 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: comparison that they've used. Yeah, yeah, and you definitely hear 505 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: that right. Well, we used to think right and there 506 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: was a time when and they're not wrong about that, 507 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: They're right about it. And my I would make the 508 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: point that history is progressive, but like comparatively, the space 509 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: and time where we enslaved humans, even though it was 510 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: a very very very long time in our history, is 511 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: much shorter than the amount of time that are even 512 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: you know, you're talking Homo erectus to Homo sapien and 513 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: even before that, even you know, lower hominids that were 514 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: I mean it, it is like, you know, I'm sorry, 515 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: but you just can't. There's there was no period in 516 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: time where everybody was for one thing, slavery cue aform 517 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: writing how to chisel a freaking rock, Like all of 518 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: society wasn't ever on the same page at one point 519 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: in time. Just never never was, especially if you want 520 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: to talk about slavery, right because the enslaved, we're probably like, 521 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm starting to have second thoughts about 522 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: this whole slavery thing. Turns out not that great, yes, 523 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: and I and they're able to do that right, Um there, 524 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: there's there's a thing that happens to with this argument, 525 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: and it twists me. Another thing that twists me up 526 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 1: a little bit is these folks. The the ideology is 527 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: so powerful that these folks, I'm not saying they may 528 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: or may not be willing to die for it. I 529 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: don't know, but they're certainly willing to go to prison 530 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: and ruin their lives over it. And so the feeling 531 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: that they have when they wake up in the morning, 532 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: whether it's a misguided feeling or not. And I went 533 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: to Berkeley in hopes to kind of understand it better. 534 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: And I left this particular conversation you're about that you're 535 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: more confused than ever. But it certainly did help me. Um, 536 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: you know, go to the gym with my ideas and 537 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: make sure they were strong enough to hold up. But 538 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: and another thing I will say is, I went into 539 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: this interview with no I didn't prep I didn't rename 540 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: books or have any quotes or stats. I just wanted 541 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: to see what that conversation would be like with what 542 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: I currently knew and what this person currently knew, you know, 543 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: and just in weigh those things with each other without 544 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: having without me, with no cards, with like here's a 545 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: statue ought to consider. I didn't want that. I wanted 546 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: to be natural the flow of conversation, at least on 547 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: my end. So you got to know that. But you 548 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: also got to know that these people believe this so 549 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: mind alteringly that they're willing to do just about anything 550 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: because they feel like they're saving lives, that that are 551 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: being to do anything other than call a sandwich what 552 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: it is outside of that, willing to go to prison. Okay, 553 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: but this is chicken, but my Phillies cheese steak contains 554 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: some things, yeah that we shan't talk about. We shan'n't. No, 555 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: we shan't not Yeah, And I so like I said this. 556 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: This is There's two parts of of my trip to 557 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: Berkeley specifically to pursue these ideas. The first one you're 558 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: about to hear, and the second one you're here next 559 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: week on part of a vegan philosopher named Robert C. Jones. 560 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: I came out of both these conversations better equipped to 561 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: handle these conversations in the future. I learned a lot. 562 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: I feel like I got twisted up a lot with 563 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: some of this stuff. Um, I think as anybody probably 564 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: would if I was saying wins and losses. I think 565 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: there were a lot of winds logically and some losses. 566 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: But um, I'm glad I did it because I'm now better. One. 567 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,239 Speaker 1: I understand what it's like to be, just for a 568 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: brief moment, what it's like to be these people, and 569 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: what's like to feel that way and to devote your 570 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: life to saving the lives of things you think are 571 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: being murdered on mass scale. Um, what it must feel 572 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: like for them to grat run into a actory farm 573 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: and grab a chicken and run out. They must feel 574 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: it think that there, you know, heroes saving lives and 575 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: so I have a better understanding of that, but I 576 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: don't know that I came out of there with a 577 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: better appreciation. But it's kind of like like the you 578 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: know they're there. The argument isn't against factory farming, right, 579 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: It's it's against animals being cultivated and eaten, you know, 580 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: and and and they but they like to boil it 581 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: down to like, well, this is what we're against. Yeah, 582 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: but you know you and I talked to those animal 583 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: rights folks and Sacramento and Anonymous for the Voiceless. Yeah, 584 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: and you know it's like, I mean, it's just so funny, 585 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: like my mom's little farm there and outside of Billings, 586 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, half of those freaking animals would walk up 587 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: to We're looking to get their ears scratched, you know, 588 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: like they they were not living in a stressed environment 589 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 1: at all, and uh, you know a lot of those 590 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: things turned into meat. Those creatures turned into meat. So um, 591 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: it's like yeah, man, it is. And it's really interesting 592 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: thing as far as like, you know, those animals don't 593 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: have super long lifespans. This is like people need to 594 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 1: be fed. This is how they're currently being fed. Yeah, 595 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: they they're talking about a sea change to our humanity. 596 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: You know, they're talking about a shift in how we 597 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: interact with the natural world and the world around us. 598 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: It's in and of itself that's going to have a 599 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: cascading negative effect to our our entire world if we 600 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: were to go the way that they want us to go. 601 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: And I think maybe they partly understand the means of 602 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: production there against the consumption. Imagine, imagine if a world 603 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: where next year, for the next presidency, the first thing 604 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: they do is try to get a constitutional amendment past 605 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: that's talking about animal personhood and saying you if you 606 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: kill an animal, you're a murderer. You go to jail. 607 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 1: That's that's that's the idea, and so that's what that's 608 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 1: the strength of that idea, at least for the people 609 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: that hold it is is ridiculously strong. I mean it is, 610 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: it's in their minds, infallible, and so at least I 611 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: got to understand that from their perspective. And hopefully if 612 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: you listen to the interview coming up here in a minute, 613 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: you'll you'll get that too. But it's certainly if you 614 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: would a race, if you call if you and I 615 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: and even you feel would relay a race what you 616 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 1: currently believe in kind of approach the world with a 617 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 1: blank slate. At the very least, what they what they're 618 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: saying would be compelling because they believe it's evan strongly. 619 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: You know it could. Could I make as compelling a 620 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: case for hunting as they do for murdering animals? I 621 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: don't know if I could, because they I mean, they're 622 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: willing to go to their felony charges, multiple felony charges 623 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: for multiple members. In fact, the founder that the true 624 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 1: founder of d x c's react action everywhere, he's going 625 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: to go to jail for a long time. He's just 626 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: awaiting sentencing and awaiting a trial. So it's that's a 627 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: person going to jail over the over this idea. So 628 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: it's that's pretty strong. I don't think of any examples 629 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: in hunting where people are going to jail for this. 630 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to go to the clink. Like comparing 631 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: stories are interrupted, Jeff Beza, he uh, pretty good. Minutes 632 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: in I jumped up on stage. All right, Well, um, 633 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: any final words there? Child before we transport to Berkeley. 634 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: No take us away, Phil, Are you good? Yeah, I'm 635 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm doing good. I don't know if you wanted to 636 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: put throw down some some Simon and Garfunkle to set 637 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,719 Speaker 1: the scene or something while we transport to Berkeley. I 638 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: guess I grew up on an all the roads. How's 639 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: it going. It is going great. Thanks so much for 640 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: having me. I'm Ben. Yeah, well thanks for having me 641 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: in the home here. And you guys call this an 642 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: activist house. This is known as the Dingo Den. The 643 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: Dingo So we have several activist houses and they all 644 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: kind of have animal ish type names like that. So 645 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: welcome to the Dingo Den. The Dingo Den. I like, 646 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be in the Dingo Den. And this 647 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: is is for the organization that that you're a part of. 648 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: This is where a lot of activists get together, they 649 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: live in the same place. They kind of coalesced around 650 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: the idea of animal rights activist. Absolutely, lots of meetings, lots, 651 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: I mean lots of events, like you know, things like 652 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: this where we're filming and doing interviews with the media 653 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: and yeah, just all sorts of planning, video editing, organizing protests, 654 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 1: community events. You name it, yeah, and you would would 655 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: our self described animal rights activists, is that yeah? Absolutely? 656 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: Animal rights, animal liberation activists kind of interchangeable. Yeah, maybe 657 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: in the short term animal welfare activists. People kind of don't. 658 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: Don't like that one, but animal welfare as a means 659 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 1: to to animal rights perfect. UM. Tell us about your organization, 660 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: and i'd, like I said I said earlier before we 661 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: hit record, and we have I will also say we 662 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: have UM your organizations Facebook Live joining us. So we're 663 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 1: gonna have hopefully some questions as we go. So if 664 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: we do, you get a good question, just stop me 665 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: at a at a place that makes sense and we'll 666 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: take those questions. Because this this conversation is all about questions, 667 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: questions I have for you, hopefully questions you have for me, 668 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: and and just exploring the things that are important to 669 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: both of us. UM where we agree and then a 670 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: lot of where we probably don't agree. So tell us 671 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,800 Speaker 1: a little about the organization. Sure. So I'm the press 672 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: coordinator with Direct Action Everywhere, which is a global grassroots 673 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 1: animal rights network UM committed to achieving UM revolutionary social 674 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: and political change for animals, culminating in our eventual goal 675 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: of species of equality. So that would be a constitutional amendment. UM, 676 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: at least that would be kind of the the U 677 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: S version of it to UH, to give animals basic personhood, 678 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: to say that you know, in the same way that 679 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: it's it's not you know, you can't you know, I don't. 680 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: I can't invade your bubble, I can't harm you, I 681 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: can't put you in a cage, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. UH, 682 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: to extend that right to all sentient life on you know, 683 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: in the U. S and event eventually on Earth. And 684 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: the way we do that is by following the footsteps 685 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: of successful social movements of the past, and we employ 686 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: non violent direct actions. So this means UM going directly 687 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: to where the injustice is happening and speaking out against it. UM. 688 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: We go into into farms, into slaughterhouses, we document what's happening, 689 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: We rescue animals. Sometimes we go into even like a 690 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: grocery stores and in restaurants and raise awareness. They're a 691 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: wide variety of actions all centered around building a mass 692 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: movement for andomal rights to to to facilitate that kind 693 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: of change. Yeah, and you guys have have done this 694 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: UM to what I would call extremes that there's um 695 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: prey that's sitting over there, has a few felonies on 696 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: on the books. Just explain, you know, the extents. Did 697 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: you guys go to to document some of the factory 698 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: farming practices that we talked about earlier and some other 699 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: animal cruelties that you guys perceive, you like, it's you 700 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 1: know what I would I would say it's very extreme. 701 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: I think anybody would say it's very extreme. But it's 702 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: what you're passion about. So kind of explain the boundaries 703 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 1: within you guys, how you work. Yes, So I think 704 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: I mean in terms of what ordinary you know, what 705 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: most people are doing. It's certainly the action itself is extreme. 706 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: When most people are you know, very few people are 707 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: actually doing it. I think in terms of the values 708 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,240 Speaker 1: it represents is actually pretty mainstream. Um. When ordinary people, 709 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: I mean yourself, you know we were talking before the recording. Um, 710 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: ordinary people see what's happening in factory farms, they're horrified 711 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 1: by it. They're horrified, you know, even by the food 712 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: that they're reading where it comes from. When they learn that, 713 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: and so what we're really doing is is shining a 714 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 1: light on that. And we're we're elevating what's happening behind 715 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: closed doors and allowing that compassion that's really common to 716 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: most people to to to be raised to the forefront. 717 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: And I think when ordinary people, you know, see what's 718 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: happening in these farms, and then they hear that someone 719 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: like Priya here is is facing felony charges for for 720 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,280 Speaker 1: just exposing the truth, for trying to help animals. Ordinary 721 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: people are with us, uh in terms in terms of 722 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: the values. So the actions themselves are extreme, but it 723 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: can actually, um really be a powerful mechanism to to 724 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: draw attention to it when people be like, oh my god, 725 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: like she she might be going to prison for this, 726 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: Like that's that's just outraised like a lovely person. I 727 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: don't understand. Not a felon. Yeah, it's it's a it's 728 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: a pretty wild a state of affairs. And I think 729 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,880 Speaker 1: we're marching down the path to change things. Well, I 730 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: want to learn, like I learn as much as I 731 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: can about the ideologies, but also you the person and 732 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: how the organization kind of came to be. So let's 733 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: start with the organization. Um, who founded it, how did 734 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: it come about? How long has it been around? Yeah? 735 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: So direct actually ever was founded in tween. Prio is 736 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: actually one of the co founders who's in the room. UM. 737 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: Wayne Chung was another co founder UM, and his his 738 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: experience UM was kind of bouncing around within the kind 739 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: of animal rights world and trying certain tactics that he 740 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: didn't feel like we're very effective, like more conventional like education, leafletting, 741 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 1: and so on and again following in the footsteps of 742 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: social movements throughout history. What we've seen is that UM 743 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: education alone hasn't really done it. You know, when there's 744 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: when there's segregation happening in America, when there's when there's slavery, 745 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: you don't just go to somebody and say, hey, you 746 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,879 Speaker 1: know here, here's the logical case for why that doesn't work. 747 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: Like that, that didn't get us anywhere. And what did 748 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: get us anywhere is when people actually took action, when 749 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 1: we see the sit in and so on. So it's 750 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: really drawing on that, you know, taking that mainstream, kind 751 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: of animal focused animal personhood message and and adopting these 752 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: these different tactics that that we think can can can 753 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: bring about more change that we haven't unfortunately seen. UM. 754 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,560 Speaker 1: How about you. You're from Iowa, so you got some 755 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: street credit, Like, I'm from Iowa, man from Berkeley. So 756 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 1: so explained about how you got here, you know, how 757 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: did you become the press coordinator for for ours like this? 758 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: So yes, I was born and raised in Iowa until 759 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: just like two years ago. I'm thirty three now and 760 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 1: so I've been there until something like that. And uh so, 761 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: originally I was this four year old kid. It's really 762 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: it's pretty interesting to think about it. Who for the 763 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 1: first time in my life, I kind of had this 764 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: realization that this what was sitting on my plate, you know, 765 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: wasn't some benign food that it was there was was 766 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: this body of an animal that wanted to live. My 767 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: uncles were having a conversation about me and kind of 768 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: joking and laughing about this their deer hunters, and it 769 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,279 Speaker 1: was just very viscerally shocking to me at the time. 770 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: And I just like had this whole, i mean, really 771 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,880 Speaker 1: traumatic moment. I'm just like, oh my god, everybody around 772 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: me is is doing this, which you know, just seems 773 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,400 Speaker 1: so horrific. And then you know, you fast forward, uh 774 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: and I had another experience when I was at my 775 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: relatives home, and you know, I kind of had to 776 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: even bring this up because my relative you know there 777 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 1: this is like thirty years ago, and you know, I'm 778 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: certainly not going to name me. Well not not illegal, 779 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,440 Speaker 1: but pretty distasteful. So I had some they they said, hey, Matthew, 780 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: come out here, and they brought me out to the 781 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 1: shed and they had this deer that they had killed 782 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: and strung up upside down and the nose is painted red, 783 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: and you know, it was like Christmas time, and you know, 784 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, this isn't actually like Rudolph, but it 785 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: was just like this pretty you know, I was just 786 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: horrified that they would make, you know, that kind of 787 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: a joke about this dead animal, and it just I 788 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 1: think it really just like further entrenched me into this 789 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,400 Speaker 1: this perspective because um, I mean I think a lot 790 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: of kids, I mean you can look on social media 791 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,640 Speaker 1: on Facebook. I mean, I guess more in my schere 792 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: you see this, but like a lot of kids like 793 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: that's an initial response. They're like, oh my god, we're 794 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,759 Speaker 1: killing animals, like how you know, like there's just an 795 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: initial aversion to that sort of a thing. And then 796 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of like what's normalized around you. How it's 797 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, if if it's kind of made up, you know, 798 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,680 Speaker 1: just like oh this is you know, my parents were 799 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,840 Speaker 1: big on like God gave us animals for food this 800 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: sort of thing. So I was, you know, kind of 801 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: this mental battle for me. It was like, you know, 802 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: why am I You know, it seems seems like such 803 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: a horrible thing to do, but yet is it what 804 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: God wants us to do? So I, you know, through 805 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: my whole childhood, I was basically I was just a 806 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,399 Speaker 1: silent vegetarian because I really didn't know what to make 807 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: of that um. But anyways, fast forward twenty years, I 808 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: got some different ideas about the religion stuff, which I 809 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: won't go into, but you know, the religion thing wasn't 810 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: holding me back, and then I was like, okay, yeah, 811 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: I think that that that four year old was was 812 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: onto something. I think that, you know, if we can 813 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: create a world where we respect the rights of animals 814 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: and the same way we respect the bodily autonomy and 815 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: the right to to life and safety and happiness of 816 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,080 Speaker 1: of individual humans, I think that there's a lot that 817 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 1: makes sense with that. Sure and not I think and 818 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,840 Speaker 1: that's why I think we you know, we're a different 819 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: size of the tracks, I would say, and when I 820 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: always like to think of when we say anti hunters 821 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: or animal rights activists and there is there's a bit 822 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,359 Speaker 1: of a boogeyman, and then the hunting community around those 823 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: those terms I always like to think of when I 824 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: wake up in the morning, I'm passionate about, like how 825 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: hunting has enriched my life. The act of hunting has 826 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,359 Speaker 1: riched my life, not the killing of the animal per se, 827 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,960 Speaker 1: other than the fact that I get while meat from 828 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: and protein from the act of hunting has enriched my 829 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: life in ways that I'd like to explain to you guys. 830 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,040 Speaker 1: And and but I always think that and the reason 831 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: I wanted to reach out and have this conversation because 832 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: I think you guys have the same kinds of passions 833 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: over the the ideologies and philosophies and things that you've 834 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: come to believe and believe so strong. So just like 835 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,359 Speaker 1: I believe vegans and animal rights actes have a lot 836 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,200 Speaker 1: of income with hunters, I think we as people have 837 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: a lot in common just what our passion and what 838 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,080 Speaker 1: we believe. We just happened to have landed on two 839 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,120 Speaker 1: really really different ideas ways, probably a more tangible and 840 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: a less tangible way to interact with wild animals and 841 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: animals themselves. So the couple of ideas that I'm really 842 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: interested in, and I can't say that I've researched them, 843 00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: but I wanted to come here and just hear right 844 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:29,439 Speaker 1: from you. Species is um an animal personhood. So which 845 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,439 Speaker 1: one is more appropriate to start with? They're both when 846 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,279 Speaker 1: they're they're inter related and both very appropriate. So so 847 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: species is UM. I mean, it's, you know, just kind 848 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: of followed the book definition of discrimination, racism, sexism, species 849 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: is M. It's it's when you take uh, an arbitrary, 850 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 1: arbitrary trait or an arbitrary grouping rather uh, and you say, hey, 851 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,640 Speaker 1: let's put these individuals into this category and give them rights, 852 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,919 Speaker 1: not because of any relevant characteristic but just because they're 853 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,000 Speaker 1: in this group. So white people get these rights, black 854 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,879 Speaker 1: people are denied these rights, men get these rights, women 855 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: are denied these rights. Well, over the course of history, 856 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: we've come to say, well, those those are arbitrary groupings, 857 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: Like there's no reason that, you know, black people versus 858 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,960 Speaker 1: white people you're denying rights. Well, species it makes the 859 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,920 Speaker 1: same case. So it's saying like, well, what is you know, 860 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 1: not don't just put them into arbitrary groups and say well, 861 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm in a position of privilege and power and 862 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: I'm human and all the non humans like forget you, 863 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,439 Speaker 1: you get your rights denied. But but no, we that's 864 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: that's that's discrimination. Uh. And we should in fact say like, well, 865 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: what is the relevant trait and so uh you know, 866 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:35,959 Speaker 1: to me, what makes sense as the relevant trait for 867 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: for personhood to go into the other part of it 868 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,279 Speaker 1: is is individuals who have feelings who want to live, 869 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:47,280 Speaker 1: We should respect those those rights to to to life 870 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,160 Speaker 1: and those feelings matter. It comes down to the sentience 871 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,840 Speaker 1: is the word we use, right um, And sentience is 872 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: kind of like the level of a being that has 873 00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 1: feelings and wants to live. Right Like if it if 874 00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 1: you take a fish and you drop it on the shore, 875 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,319 Speaker 1: does it flop towards the water? Right? Those things like that? 876 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 1: And and I think I think it's it's in my experience, 877 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: has always been pretty common with folks that are focused 878 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,879 Speaker 1: on animal rights to start to look at, um, how 879 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 1: to personify or anthromorphize an animal like it has they 880 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 1: have babies, they have emotions, they have feelings, they're scared, 881 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: they're happy, they're sleepy, that those types of things. So 882 00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: and it's it's you guys have some rescue pets down here, 883 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: and you live with these animals, and you see you 884 00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: become emotionally attached, and you start to see how they 885 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: interact with the world, and you become emotionally attached to that. 886 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: How do you how do you think of animals, both 887 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: the pets that you have, and then you take that 888 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,319 Speaker 1: one step further to like factory farmed animal, and then 889 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 1: one step further to a wild animal that lives. Yeah, 890 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: so I mean there's certainly is emotional attachment like you 891 00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: mentioned that come to certain animals. I try to to 892 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,839 Speaker 1: take a step back from that and not you know, again, 893 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: discritin me, any species is m is one thing. You 894 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: could say humans to non humans, but even within non 895 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,919 Speaker 1: human animals, right, you have warm feelings towards a dog, 896 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: but not towards a pig. I try to step back 897 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: from that and say, like, no, what's what's relevant here? 898 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: How cute I think an animal is isn't relevant. What 899 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 1: what is relevant is that the animal can can feel 900 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,880 Speaker 1: these emotions, can feel good, can feel suffering, and and 901 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,319 Speaker 1: so on. And just try to just look at that 902 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: and and make, you know, live my life and kind 903 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: of construct my world view of my values around that 904 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: and not around you know, the emotional sentimental stuff. And 905 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: we were talking about it at lunch. Um. I will 906 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,359 Speaker 1: say that we had lunch at the Butcher's Son here 907 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: in Berkeley. It's a wonderful vegan restaurant. UM. I had 908 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: the chicken grinder. It's pretty good. I go back. It 909 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: was very strategically chosen for our guests here. I didn't 910 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: even I was. I was hungry, like, let's go have lunch. 911 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: I don't even think of that. We probably would have 912 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,320 Speaker 1: couldn't have lunch at the same places a lot of times. UM. 913 00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,000 Speaker 1: So I think this gets us into I think one 914 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,359 Speaker 1: of the main things that I think of here, and 915 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: we talked about this at lunch a little bit as well, 916 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,400 Speaker 1: is value right, because we both I think that the 917 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,040 Speaker 1: very lucky thing about where we live, and it's not 918 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: this way around the world. I think pre and and 919 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: you guys have have probably seen this throughout your activism. 920 00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: Is we all most Americans, Americans value animals, the idea 921 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,600 Speaker 1: of animals and having them here. You know that's not 922 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 1: so in Africa, in different places of the world, we 923 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: all if we were all driving by a field and 924 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 1: there were deer and turkeys and squirrels and songbirds, we 925 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: would all look at that field and say, we want 926 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,759 Speaker 1: those animals to be there, right. We have the the 927 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:48,080 Speaker 1: innate ability to see the value in the animal. And 928 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 1: so one of my major questions wanting something I've struggled 929 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,759 Speaker 1: with and something I think a lot of hunters when 930 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 1: they really think about it, what's struggled with is are 931 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,759 Speaker 1: these animals valuable because we assigned them value? Because we're 932 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: talking at lunch again, we assigned different values most of 933 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,439 Speaker 1: our societal you guys, differ from a lot of people 934 00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,960 Speaker 1: and that you don't really assign the hierarchical value to 935 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: any one animal. But in most of our side do 936 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: we do? You know, some animals are higher than others. 937 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,280 Speaker 1: Something we can step on, a step on a bug, 938 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,560 Speaker 1: but we want to take care of our dog, kind 939 00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: of kind of a thing we can feed, can feed, 940 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,880 Speaker 1: grind up animal parts to our dog, things of that nature. 941 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: So there's a hierarchy of how we value certain animals. 942 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,719 Speaker 1: How do you guys see that value system? Or even 943 00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,000 Speaker 1: probably a better question, how do you construct your own 944 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,720 Speaker 1: value systems around you know, animals being equal to Yeah, 945 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: so I think because come back to the question of sentience, 946 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: and you know that is the hierarchy, you know, based 947 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 1: upon something that's relevant or is it based upon something 948 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: that's that's that's arbitrary and therefore discriminatory. And so you know, 949 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 1: if the question was you know, if it was literally 950 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 1: you know that we kind of hear that, you know, 951 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,279 Speaker 1: maybe the gotcha questions of like, oh, would you kill 952 00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: a bug to save a dog's life or something like that, 953 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, uh, yeah, I I think we 954 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: would because the dog is is going to have a 955 00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,799 Speaker 1: longer life and have a more rich experience or like, 956 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,160 Speaker 1: you know, to get to really like some you know, 957 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,279 Speaker 1: some dark places, like if there was a human being 958 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,480 Speaker 1: who was you know, had a disability or was just 959 00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,399 Speaker 1: in some horrible shape and you literally had to choose 960 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: one versus the other type of a thing you know 961 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: than that. But but in terms of but but but 962 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:26,480 Speaker 1: often that's not the choice that we're taking right when 963 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: you say, like, well, can if you can choose not 964 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,360 Speaker 1: to harm an individual, I think we should choose not 965 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,839 Speaker 1: to harm an individual. And if we could construct our 966 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,920 Speaker 1: society and the way we view animals in such a 967 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: way that can can lead us down that path. I 968 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,400 Speaker 1: think we should do so. And I think that historically, 969 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,120 Speaker 1: what we've seen time and time again is that when 970 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:42,880 Speaker 1: we do expand the rights of a certain class of 971 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,640 Speaker 1: individuals raised, gender, and so on, that that that the 972 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,279 Speaker 1: individuals within within that elevated class are therefore better off. 973 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,520 Speaker 1: And there's I think there's every reason to to assume 974 00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: that the same would be the same, you know, with animals. Yeah, 975 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,880 Speaker 1: I think there's something we definitely agree on. And I 976 00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,840 Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever said this on this podcast 977 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 1: or really on air at all, but I do. I do. 978 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,320 Speaker 1: I've always I talked to my parents about this some. 979 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:07,680 Speaker 1: I do feel like if you look back through history, 980 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: the progressive ideas definitely societally and culturally kind of always 981 00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,720 Speaker 1: win when it comes to and it's I'm an independent person. 982 00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,359 Speaker 1: I don't think in a progressive way. I don't think 983 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:20,960 Speaker 1: in a conservative way. I just try to look at 984 00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,319 Speaker 1: things pragmatically and then figure it out. But when you 985 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,680 Speaker 1: start to look at they could the conservative social feelings 986 00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,640 Speaker 1: of you know, discrimination or racism or whatever they're those 987 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,920 Speaker 1: things are are over time like they're receding. They always have. 988 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,520 Speaker 1: You can't. You can't fight that. That's just history. If you, 989 00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,560 Speaker 1: if you read understand history, you understand that we've we've 990 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: progressively become better at treating each other well and being 991 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:50,359 Speaker 1: social and understanding that the individual rights are important. So 992 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure that a lot of people will hear me 993 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,799 Speaker 1: say that and and label me a certain way. Have 994 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,040 Speaker 1: at it, go for it. I don't really don't really care. Yeah, yeah, 995 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,480 Speaker 1: you berkey, what's in the water here? Um, So you 996 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 1: haven't taken a drink at the well, Yeah, maybe I'll 997 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:07,239 Speaker 1: get worse. It'll get worse if I started drinking. But 998 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:09,040 Speaker 1: I do believe that. But I also believe in a 999 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,400 Speaker 1: lot of conservative ideals and a lot of ideals around uh, 1000 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,759 Speaker 1: gun rights and hunting and all these other things. So I'm, 1001 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: you know, complicated, being as we all are. So I 1002 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,520 Speaker 1: guess they say all that to say what I would 1003 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,319 Speaker 1: what I would like to discuss a little bit is 1004 00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: one I think we should we shouldn't gloss over jump 1005 00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,319 Speaker 1: over the activism part. I think we should talk about 1006 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: what you guys do, what what you do on the ground, um, 1007 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,840 Speaker 1: and then talk a little bit about factory farming. Briefly 1008 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,880 Speaker 1: because we're gonna probably agree on it and then and 1009 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: then get the things we don't agree on but talk about. 1010 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, Prea has we talked about. She has some 1011 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: felonies that she's facing. The founder of your organization has 1012 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,040 Speaker 1: some felonies that he's facing him likely um spend some 1013 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: time in jail because of those things. To take us 1014 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: through like why that is, Um, we kind of understand 1015 00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,839 Speaker 1: your motivation at this point, but like take us through 1016 00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: how you do it and why you do it and 1017 00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: what's the outcome. Yeah, absolutely, so we you know, like 1018 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:07,880 Speaker 1: I said, we expose what's happening inside of these farms 1019 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,160 Speaker 1: and we'll we'll rescue sick and injured animals. And uh, 1020 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of kind of following and you 1021 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: know some of these uh movements of the past where 1022 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: we're individuals have been granted rights. It's it's come via 1023 00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,120 Speaker 1: folks making this kind of sacrifice and and defying unjust 1024 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: laws at times. Although interestingly, we actually have a legal 1025 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,919 Speaker 1: argument that what we're doing is legally justified, but it's 1026 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: not being viewed as such that the ordinary people actually 1027 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 1: can go in and help animals the same way you'd 1028 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,480 Speaker 1: help a dog in a hot car, you break a 1029 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,520 Speaker 1: window like, that's not that's not vandalism. So why is 1030 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: it illegal? Yeah? So it um so, Actually whether or 1031 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:44,920 Speaker 1: not it's illegal in the state of California is actually 1032 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:47,960 Speaker 1: a question. But but even even if it was illegal, um, 1033 00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, there is a place for for civil disobedience 1034 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 1: and there is a place for that, and uh, you know, 1035 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,320 Speaker 1: it's it gets the media attention when when when people 1036 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,480 Speaker 1: are are when people are being locked up much more 1037 00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,400 Speaker 1: so than you know, even uh, you know, a mass 1038 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,160 Speaker 1: catastrophe of animals, like tens of thousands or millions of 1039 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,080 Speaker 1: animals suffering is you know, doesn't get the attention that 1040 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,160 Speaker 1: literally like one person you know, potentially getting felony charges 1041 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 1: it might result in prison, will get that sort of thing. 1042 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:15,960 Speaker 1: And and it, uh you know, it plays on our species. 1043 00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:18,800 Speaker 1: Is um that that ordinary people like you hear You 1044 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,440 Speaker 1: can't even hardly wrap your head around how many billions 1045 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 1: of animals are in a factory farm. But when you 1046 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,120 Speaker 1: meet Pria or you see you know, an interview with Pria, 1047 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,040 Speaker 1: it's like she's about to go to prison. That really 1048 00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:29,920 Speaker 1: has that powerful effect on people, and it really is 1049 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:31,800 Speaker 1: like wow, these these folks are willing to to make 1050 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: a big sacrifice. Maybe there's something to this. Um, you know, 1051 00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,920 Speaker 1: it plays a lot better than if you're sitting at 1052 00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:38,720 Speaker 1: the table with you know, somebody who's just like a 1053 00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,360 Speaker 1: picky eater. The other the other big part of this 1054 00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,440 Speaker 1: is just understanding that, like the really intrinsically what you're 1055 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,320 Speaker 1: willing to sacrifice. And it seems like you're willing to 1056 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,760 Speaker 1: sacrifice just about anything. Yeah, I think that, you know, 1057 00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: I personally just try to hold myself accountable to you know, 1058 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,040 Speaker 1: being objective and and and ultimately if you're not discriminating, 1059 00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,800 Speaker 1: and this is going some real deep stuff. But it's like, 1060 00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 1: don't you know, like why why is my you know, 1061 00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: I have one life to live. I'm doing my thing 1062 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,440 Speaker 1: here and frankly, even even in facing the felony you know, 1063 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm not you know, main reason I'm not 1064 00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:11,640 Speaker 1: facing felony charges. I'm doing the press work when everybody 1065 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: else is not getting arrested. I'm like ready to go. 1066 00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: But it's just anyway, just a good thing. But you know, 1067 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 1: I mean, even you know, to to put it in 1068 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,160 Speaker 1: a certain context, you know, even facing those felony charges, 1069 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,840 Speaker 1: it's like you're eating but your son, you're living in Berkeley, 1070 00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,080 Speaker 1: it's in a you know, and then like yeah, maybe 1071 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,120 Speaker 1: at some point it's it's a year prison or something 1072 00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,240 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, and you contrast that again with 1073 00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,000 Speaker 1: with tens of billions of animals suffering. I think that it's, 1074 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, when you kind of force yourself to really 1075 00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,720 Speaker 1: not even be objective, but be like a little closer 1076 00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:44,240 Speaker 1: to objective, you put it in in context, and it's 1077 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,400 Speaker 1: it's it's not actually that much of a sacrifice. You 1078 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: guys put yourself in a hard situation, right, I mean, 1079 00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,600 Speaker 1: that's it's like feeling the weight of all I mean, 1080 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,880 Speaker 1: I guess I'm not being presumptives say all animals. I mean, 1081 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,040 Speaker 1: you're not separating anyone like that. We're not separating wild 1082 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,480 Speaker 1: animals from farm animals. And you're talking about animal person 1083 01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 1: hunt in itself, so that's a that's a huge weight. 1084 01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,720 Speaker 1: And then I always in one of the arguments, one 1085 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: of the questions a lot of people that follow me, 1086 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:14,280 Speaker 1: we're asking is as a hunter, I'm not. I don't. 1087 01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:16,400 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that I want everyone to understand hunting. 1088 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,800 Speaker 1: I want them to understand why I do it. Why 1089 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: it enriches my life and makes it better. Why I 1090 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,400 Speaker 1: feel like the meat uh feeds my family and makes 1091 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:30,640 Speaker 1: us more connected to the natural world, to our natural resources. Um. 1092 01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,120 Speaker 1: We discussed a little bit, and we will discuss further 1093 01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,680 Speaker 1: kind of how we view these beings in different lights. 1094 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:39,880 Speaker 1: But I just want people to understand how it's enriched 1095 01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,360 Speaker 1: my life and accept that. Right. I don't want everybody 1096 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 1: to be a hunter. In fact, if everyone's a hunter, 1097 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 1: tomorrow would be no animals left. We would we would 1098 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,959 Speaker 1: have killed them all to give hunting tags to every 1099 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,280 Speaker 1: person on the earth. So I differ from you and 1100 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,439 Speaker 1: that I'm not out to I'm out for understanding, right, 1101 01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,840 Speaker 1: I'm not out for change really, UM, I would like 1102 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,440 Speaker 1: everybody to try hunting, and if they like to go 1103 01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:02,200 Speaker 1: and pursue it, I'd like to make sure there's open 1104 01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,000 Speaker 1: access for them to do so. But I'm also not 1105 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,040 Speaker 1: I don't feel like everybody needs to come to my 1106 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: side to be right. I just want them to understand 1107 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,520 Speaker 1: me and I think a lot of people on my 1108 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,160 Speaker 1: side and me included, to be flat honest with you, 1109 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,560 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's a heavy life to live to 1110 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,240 Speaker 1: feel so strongly about this thing to want it to 1111 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 1: to feel like everyone else has to come to that also, 1112 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,920 Speaker 1: come to that conclusion about how we see an animal. 1113 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,439 Speaker 1: So just talk through that, because I think that's you've 1114 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,960 Speaker 1: you've you haven't landed on a passion that's light and 1115 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 1: it's loafers something landing on a passion that there's like 1116 01:01:34,360 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: a there's like a worldview changing thing to believe that's heavy, right, Yeah, 1117 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:44,600 Speaker 1: it certainly is. And um, yeah, it's it can be heavy. 1118 01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: I mean there's way, you know, with community support and whatnot, 1119 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,720 Speaker 1: I think there's ways that it can can lighten that load. 1120 01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 1: And and certainly the fact that it's heavy, you know, 1121 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:55,720 Speaker 1: doesn't speak to it being right or wrong. I'm not 1122 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,840 Speaker 1: saying that at all. Um, and um, you know, I 1123 01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,280 Speaker 1: mean it sort of comes to this fundamental question of 1124 01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, forcing your views quote unquote. 1125 01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:08,160 Speaker 1: And again we look back at some of these social 1126 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,920 Speaker 1: movements throughout history, and it was very right for there, 1127 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,200 Speaker 1: for the anti seggregation is too, to sit in at 1128 01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,480 Speaker 1: those lunch counters and enforce their views and say, hey, no, 1129 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 1: racism is wrong. We're not going to accept this, and 1130 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,920 Speaker 1: and and and opposing slavery and so on. So I 1131 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,160 Speaker 1: think everybody can agree that there is a time and 1132 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,840 Speaker 1: a place for for quote unquote forcing your views, and 1133 01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,400 Speaker 1: then it's just it's the conversation of where when is 1134 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 1: that right time in the place, and uh, why we're here? Yeah. No, 1135 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:38,000 Speaker 1: that that in itself makes sense to me. Um that 1136 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,480 Speaker 1: that's once your worldview is is? So, I mean your 1137 01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,560 Speaker 1: worldview is. I mean I was just doing some studies 1138 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,800 Speaker 1: with some human evolutionary biologists. Two million years ago, humans 1139 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: were hunting and learning, like our our brains developed from 1140 01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,800 Speaker 1: the protein rich resources, and our motor skills developed from 1141 01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,240 Speaker 1: throwing rocks, you know, two million years ago in the 1142 01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,200 Speaker 1: savannahs of freaking. So we have this like deep connection 1143 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,920 Speaker 1: with hunting and deep connection with pursuing both harvesting wild 1144 01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,880 Speaker 1: foods and then harvesting wild animals and eating them, killing 1145 01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,000 Speaker 1: them and eating them. So we have this like very 1146 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,280 Speaker 1: long history with that, and it's it's if you believe 1147 01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,760 Speaker 1: in human evolution, you believe that it's intertwined these two things. 1148 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:22,120 Speaker 1: Hunting allowed us to become really allowed us to become 1149 01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,400 Speaker 1: by petle and then allow us to become Homo sapiens, 1150 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,440 Speaker 1: and then allow us to go on and on, and 1151 01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,120 Speaker 1: of course now we sit at a time where we 1152 01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:32,360 Speaker 1: have the modern luxuries to have these ideas, um to 1153 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,160 Speaker 1: think about animal personhooded animal rights we have, we don't. 1154 01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,640 Speaker 1: We're not hungry. We can go down to the brother's 1155 01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,439 Speaker 1: son or you know, the butcher's son and get get 1156 01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:46,040 Speaker 1: a sandwich. So for us, I don't like to make again, 1157 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,760 Speaker 1: I'll go back to the progressive. The history is progressive, 1158 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:51,760 Speaker 1: I feel. So I don't like to make that. I 1159 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,480 Speaker 1: don't like to generally make there and we always did it, 1160 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,560 Speaker 1: so we should always do it. I think that sometimes 1161 01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 1: can be valid, but in this case probably not. As Valida. 1162 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,040 Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna of you that. I'm not gonna 1163 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:05,200 Speaker 1: give thank you. I'm not gonna give that because it 1164 01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to you that because there's like you 1165 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:09,480 Speaker 1: can all you gotta do is be like slavery. We 1166 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 1: did that for a long long time. We don't do anymore. 1167 01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,840 Speaker 1: Um logical foulsies and all they are. So I don't 1168 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. But I just think 1169 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:22,160 Speaker 1: that it weighs heavy on your ideologies, that there's millions 1170 01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,720 Speaker 1: of years of doing these activities now removing just just 1171 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: talking about hunting and removing factory farming because that's industrial 1172 01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:35,200 Speaker 1: evolution onward. Um, there's I just think you have a 1173 01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,040 Speaker 1: lot to explain, Like you have to to make the 1174 01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:42,600 Speaker 1: jump from racism to species is m seems like like 1175 01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,800 Speaker 1: such a gigantic gap to me, you know, from from 1176 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,959 Speaker 1: understanding and African Americans right to eat at the same 1177 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,080 Speaker 1: counter to say a pig's right not to be slaughtered. 1178 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:58,520 Speaker 1: There's a huge gap. And there's all there's no human 1179 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,880 Speaker 1: history too to back it up, right, So I'll set 1180 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,160 Speaker 1: that up for you. Yeah, I mean, I think we 1181 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,320 Speaker 1: should explore you know what you know, I can understand it. 1182 01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,040 Speaker 1: It feels like a huge gap. Uh, and so you 1183 01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,400 Speaker 1: should just like explore exactly what that is. And I think, 1184 01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, just just you take like discrimination by the book, 1185 01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:20,400 Speaker 1: I think it it fits. It's it's just group A, 1186 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,440 Speaker 1: it's group B. You're not saying, you know, you know, 1187 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,280 Speaker 1: like the activists will always say, like name the traite, 1188 01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,640 Speaker 1: Like what is the trade? Don't not the group, but 1189 01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 1: what is the trait by which we you know, respect right, 1190 01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,320 Speaker 1: the right to life, the right to bodily autonomy, the 1191 01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,000 Speaker 1: right to freedom. And there really is nothing but we 1192 01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,840 Speaker 1: haven't touched that term bodily autonomy. What's yeah, I mean, 1193 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,160 Speaker 1: it's just it's just like I nobody can do anything 1194 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,320 Speaker 1: with my body that I don't consent to. You can't, 1195 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, you know, from cutting the tail off of 1196 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,000 Speaker 1: a pig or you know, or you obviously just killing 1197 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,400 Speaker 1: animals like that sort of a thing. Um. So that 1198 01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,520 Speaker 1: goes down to like just consent basically. Yeah, And and 1199 01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 1: we wouldn't, you know, you would you would never dream 1200 01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:01,880 Speaker 1: and a million years of saying, you know, because a 1201 01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 1: human is you know, you name, it doesn't doesn't communicate 1202 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:06,800 Speaker 1: the same way you do, or isn't as smart as you, 1203 01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,320 Speaker 1: or has some sort of disability, or is less intelligent. However, 1204 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,840 Speaker 1: you know, however we measure intelligence less intelligent than a pig. 1205 01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:15,120 Speaker 1: You know, never in a million years would we dream 1206 01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,360 Speaker 1: of saying like, okay, forgot him, you know, and in fact, 1207 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,720 Speaker 1: we'll go through a great expense to to enrich the 1208 01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,240 Speaker 1: life of that human, you know, great expense to to 1209 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,600 Speaker 1: make sure that they, you know, have have a meaningful 1210 01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 1: life and have these rights. Um. And so yeah, I 1211 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,560 Speaker 1: mean I think that uh, you know, it probably sounded 1212 01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,320 Speaker 1: like a big jump for for white people to say, 1213 01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,640 Speaker 1: wait a second, these these these slaves, like we're gonna 1214 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:38,600 Speaker 1: give them rights Like that feels like such a jump, 1215 01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,240 Speaker 1: Like I can't how they wrap my head around it. 1216 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,640 Speaker 1: And it's a very strange concept. And it takes time, 1217 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:44,320 Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of these kind of conversations, 1218 01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,760 Speaker 1: and it takes activism and eventually, um, you know, society 1219 01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,440 Speaker 1: shifts when we look back and it all seems so obvious. Um, 1220 01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,240 Speaker 1: like I said, I don't I'm not blind to that 1221 01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,360 Speaker 1: that that that's happened. What I am. What I don't 1222 01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,640 Speaker 1: understand is how we get from from a to be there. 1223 01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:04,080 Speaker 1: And it seems circular, and it's and it's logic um 1224 01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:10,800 Speaker 1: circular if if so if if an animal is a 1225 01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,880 Speaker 1: person and a person is an animal. Where it seems 1226 01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,240 Speaker 1: circular to me is that animals kill other animals, right 1227 01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,640 Speaker 1: like if if if I was to say, like, it's 1228 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,280 Speaker 1: more natural for me if I am, if I'm the 1229 01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,800 Speaker 1: same thing as a deer, the deer is the same 1230 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:27,880 Speaker 1: thing for me. It's more natural for me to act 1231 01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:31,960 Speaker 1: as in the predator prey you know, relationship that's been 1232 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,080 Speaker 1: around for as long as we've been around, as long 1233 01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,400 Speaker 1: as we've been cohabitating with these creatures, it seems to 1234 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:43,120 Speaker 1: me more logical that I would fall into and I don't. 1235 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't usually use this argument, but if you were 1236 01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:49,440 Speaker 1: to level the playing field and there's one species, right, 1237 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:52,080 Speaker 1: every everything is the same and it's rights in the 1238 01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,600 Speaker 1: way that it's treated, I then feel that I fall 1239 01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,680 Speaker 1: into what a grizzly bear feels about. You know, like 1240 01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:00,360 Speaker 1: if you asked a grizzly bear about it elk, it 1241 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:04,000 Speaker 1: would say delicious. Yeah, so so so with human beings, 1242 01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, to take to take the analogy, so you know, 1243 01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,240 Speaker 1: I think you and I would hold the value that 1244 01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,960 Speaker 1: all humans, you know, deserve this right to personhood. And 1245 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,440 Speaker 1: the fact that maybe there are humans on the other 1246 01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:16,960 Speaker 1: side of the planet who, because they don't know any 1247 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,000 Speaker 1: better or for the sake of survival, are killing one another, 1248 01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't change our view that that all humans should 1249 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:27,280 Speaker 1: have basic personhood. Yeah. But but a grizzly bear, it's innate, 1250 01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,000 Speaker 1: and a grizzly bear to kill like I've been around, 1251 01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,360 Speaker 1: grizzly bears, have been around wolves, have been around mountain lions, 1252 01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:39,120 Speaker 1: apex predators. In their totality, it is in their being 1253 01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,559 Speaker 1: to kill like that's what they do. If they don't 1254 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: reason it, they don't feel it emotionally. A grizzly bear 1255 01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,479 Speaker 1: is a grizzly bear, and part of its being is 1256 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:53,000 Speaker 1: to part of it's it's grizzly bareness. If you will 1257 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,799 Speaker 1: is to kill things like it that you can't remove, 1258 01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,080 Speaker 1: you will, you would? You can never sit down with 1259 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:00,880 Speaker 1: the grizzly bear and red is in it. Out of 1260 01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:06,639 Speaker 1: eating a fawn from a pregnant deer or killing killing 1261 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,040 Speaker 1: the cubs of a sal eating I'm you know, I've 1262 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:11,559 Speaker 1: seen this and have a lot of friends have seen this. 1263 01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:14,920 Speaker 1: A grizzly bear or a you know, brown bear will 1264 01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,439 Speaker 1: kill cubs of a stal to make that stile go 1265 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,000 Speaker 1: back and heat. You can't. You couldn't remove that. You 1266 01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,920 Speaker 1: couldn't remove that from the grizzly bears. You can't. So 1267 01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:25,600 Speaker 1: my argument would be, if we're the same as a 1268 01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:27,479 Speaker 1: grizzly bear, you wouldn't be able to rumber that from us. 1269 01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,000 Speaker 1: And if if you can remove that from us, are 1270 01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:32,439 Speaker 1: we are we? Then not? We're then we're different. If 1271 01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:36,240 Speaker 1: I'm able to remove my predatory instinct that has been 1272 01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 1: built over hundreds of thousands, millions of years. If I 1273 01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:43,160 Speaker 1: can remove it from me, that makes me different than 1274 01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:47,400 Speaker 1: the bear. Well so, so um, we could again take 1275 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,559 Speaker 1: take the same conversation and you'd say, well what about 1276 01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,599 Speaker 1: you know, how how did how did I get here today? Well, 1277 01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,599 Speaker 1: you know, in addition to consumption of animals and hunting 1278 01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:56,720 Speaker 1: of animals, I got here today by a product of 1279 01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,800 Speaker 1: all sorts you know, the winners of wars, you know, 1280 01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,400 Speaker 1: by through or through all sorts of violence, all sorts 1281 01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:03,640 Speaker 1: of rape on down the line. Do this is how 1282 01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:05,360 Speaker 1: I became who I am? And so this you could 1283 01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,400 Speaker 1: argue that this is innate in all humans do is 1284 01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:10,679 Speaker 1: extreme violence towards other humans and we but we don't 1285 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:13,320 Speaker 1: fall back on that and say exactly that's my point. 1286 01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:15,400 Speaker 1: My point is we can innately change. We have the 1287 01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:20,000 Speaker 1: ability to innately change that predatory instinct. We've changed it 1288 01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:25,120 Speaker 1: through technology, the advancement our civilizations. How we think about 1289 01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,960 Speaker 1: and relate towards animals has changed over time because we 1290 01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:32,840 Speaker 1: have changed over time. I haven't seen a grizzly bear 1291 01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:34,719 Speaker 1: or been around a grizzly bear from a hundred thousand 1292 01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:38,080 Speaker 1: years ago, but I imagine that it's the same thing 1293 01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,160 Speaker 1: like grizzly bears, aren't. I promise you you'll never find 1294 01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:43,920 Speaker 1: a grizzly bear that you're gonna be able to convince 1295 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:48,600 Speaker 1: over time, through technology, through advancement, through through even better sentience, 1296 01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:53,000 Speaker 1: not to kill and eat. And so I think what 1297 01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:55,240 Speaker 1: you're saying kind of makes the point if if, if 1298 01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,920 Speaker 1: humans are able to change the way we feel about 1299 01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,320 Speaker 1: animals in the way that you would like to that 1300 01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,240 Speaker 1: that just by the ability to do that makes us 1301 01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:08,880 Speaker 1: different than animals. Yeah, against like uh, I think you 1302 01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,000 Speaker 1: could again make the human comparison like there are just 1303 01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:14,400 Speaker 1: like there are some animals named you know, bears in 1304 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,400 Speaker 1: this example, who you're not gonna be able to change. 1305 01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:18,080 Speaker 1: There are some humans who you're not gonna be able 1306 01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:19,920 Speaker 1: to change. So some so you do take the the 1307 01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:22,240 Speaker 1: animal kingdom, and and you subdivide and say some can, 1308 01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: some can't take the human species will some can, some can't. 1309 01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,759 Speaker 1: Some some humans are you don't have a mental disorder 1310 01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,400 Speaker 1: or whatever. And that doesn't change what's income in upon us, 1311 01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,800 Speaker 1: you know, individuals with moral agency to say like, hey, 1312 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:35,800 Speaker 1: like you know this, how what's the right way for 1313 01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,360 Speaker 1: us to live? And and and the question of you know, 1314 01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,639 Speaker 1: what do we do with with these individuals who have 1315 01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's humans who have violent tendencies or 1316 01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,040 Speaker 1: not our animals who have have it in aid in 1317 01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,720 Speaker 1: them to be violent. That's an extremely complicated question. But 1318 01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:54,519 Speaker 1: I think that where where I think many people fall 1319 01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:56,679 Speaker 1: short is that they say, well, it's complicated, so therefore 1320 01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:58,759 Speaker 1: we throw our hands in there, we say it's fine, 1321 01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,960 Speaker 1: or even say it's beautiful frankly, you know, and there's 1322 01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:06,679 Speaker 1: there's funny things about nature of seeing the non beautiful parts. Yeah. Yeah, 1323 01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:11,360 Speaker 1: I think what I struggle with in that idea is 1324 01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,840 Speaker 1: a grizzly bear must have it must have it's it's 1325 01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:21,200 Speaker 1: a carnivore, it must have that dear to live. It 1326 01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:26,360 Speaker 1: can't it's digestive system, the way that it functions. It 1327 01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,320 Speaker 1: can't remove that from the way it is. It can't 1328 01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:33,240 Speaker 1: just all of a sudden decide well, I don't want 1329 01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,599 Speaker 1: to eat these things anymore. It is programmed. It is 1330 01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:39,559 Speaker 1: in its DNA, it's in its genetics. Now I'm not 1331 01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:43,040 Speaker 1: I'm not saying I agree with the bears feelings, but 1332 01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,120 Speaker 1: but the bear is the bear, right, And so I 1333 01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:49,600 Speaker 1: see it more pragmatically, and I gotta look, and I 1334 01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,000 Speaker 1: would encourage you to look at the animal, you know, 1335 01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: not compared. Can I keep comparing the animals to the human, 1336 01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:56,519 Speaker 1: the animals to the human, look at the animal like 1337 01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,800 Speaker 1: that the animal they are what at all? They are, 1338 01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:04,960 Speaker 1: what they are, they function, how they function, and being 1339 01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:07,800 Speaker 1: close to nature in the natural world, and understanding that 1340 01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,720 Speaker 1: predator prey and understanding the mating habits and where they 1341 01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:13,960 Speaker 1: sleep and what they eat and kind of how all 1342 01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,080 Speaker 1: that comes together, which Honey has done for me. It's 1343 01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:20,599 Speaker 1: allowed me to kind of understand these things. And I'm 1344 01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,160 Speaker 1: happy for that. You know, I'm not necessarily happy for 1345 01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:27,479 Speaker 1: having killed dozens hundreds of animals. That's not where I 1346 01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,840 Speaker 1: get my happiness. I get my happiness been able to. 1347 01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,800 Speaker 1: It's changed the way I value animals. It's changed the 1348 01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:34,919 Speaker 1: way that I see them and I feel about them. 1349 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,160 Speaker 1: It's changed the way that I understand their role in 1350 01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,240 Speaker 1: my role in the in the natural world. I see them. 1351 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:42,639 Speaker 1: I think we said we differ here for sure. It's 1352 01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:44,680 Speaker 1: like I see them as a resource, you know, I 1353 01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:47,960 Speaker 1: see them as if I take one and there's a 1354 01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,360 Speaker 1: thousand healthy ones that that makes me happy and I 1355 01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:53,880 Speaker 1: feel like I've I've taken part in and this dance 1356 01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,240 Speaker 1: that that is valuable to our world, and it has 1357 01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,400 Speaker 1: been shown to be valuable to our world. So that's 1358 01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:01,360 Speaker 1: I think that's you know, that's part of where we 1359 01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,800 Speaker 1: come up at odds. But I think you have to 1360 01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:07,719 Speaker 1: think about the animal, like even if you removed humans 1361 01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,519 Speaker 1: from the equation, which would probably be the best thing 1362 01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:13,240 Speaker 1: we could do for any of these animals, because we 1363 01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:16,200 Speaker 1: eat up their habitat and we plant roads, we are 1364 01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:19,880 Speaker 1: we pay a road as we build houses like this 1365 01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:24,200 Speaker 1: one and destroy their habitat. So in thinking about the animal, 1366 01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:26,920 Speaker 1: like remove if if you can, and then tell them 1367 01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:31,160 Speaker 1: if you can't, like remove the comparison to humans. If 1368 01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,519 Speaker 1: if we were to then say these things are gonna 1369 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:37,679 Speaker 1: live and thrive, how would they do it without killing 1370 01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,800 Speaker 1: each other? How would they do it without without the 1371 01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:43,720 Speaker 1: predator prey relationship and the food chain? And so I 1372 01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,680 Speaker 1: think it Yeah, like you rightfully point out that it is, 1373 01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,920 Speaker 1: it's very complex, like to just just wrap your head around, 1374 01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,599 Speaker 1: like how is such a thing even possible? And I 1375 01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:55,840 Speaker 1: think that you know, um, you know, you you use 1376 01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,479 Speaker 1: the term pragmatic, and I think that you know, again, 1377 01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:01,720 Speaker 1: I just think gets just apt. So like you know, 1378 01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,080 Speaker 1: if you like, well, what are we gonna do if 1379 01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,360 Speaker 1: we if we free the slaves, and so it's not pragmatic. 1380 01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:09,080 Speaker 1: These people like how are they gonna get jobs? They're 1381 01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,120 Speaker 1: not educated, Like it's just such a huge problem and 1382 01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:14,320 Speaker 1: it was just this this rationale to just try to 1383 01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:16,160 Speaker 1: stay in trenched and what we're doing right now. And 1384 01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,240 Speaker 1: so you're you're right. So I think that you know, 1385 01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, to do what you might call pragmatic, a 1386 01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:27,320 Speaker 1: pragmatic solution, it really dismisses, you know, what's possible, and 1387 01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:29,240 Speaker 1: the fact that we can do so much more and 1388 01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:30,960 Speaker 1: as far as like what do we actually do about 1389 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:34,600 Speaker 1: these animals to stop them from eating one another? Extremely complex. 1390 01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:36,320 Speaker 1: I mean there are like, you know, we have some 1391 01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,479 Speaker 1: hints of some solutions of things like you can do 1392 01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,559 Speaker 1: like um, you know, like you can do like highway 1393 01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:46,160 Speaker 1: over passes or like like uh, wildlife can can crawl, 1394 01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, walk underneath roads, or you can have there's 1395 01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,400 Speaker 1: like high pitched sound emitters that you can do on 1396 01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:54,559 Speaker 1: on machinery so that animals run away. But frankly, we're 1397 01:15:54,560 --> 01:15:56,519 Speaker 1: not even like scratching the surface of that. So so 1398 01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,360 Speaker 1: my perspective is that if we can move from a 1399 01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,040 Speaker 1: place where we good animals as just it means to 1400 01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:05,280 Speaker 1: to our ends, and then we can shift the whole narrative, 1401 01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:08,280 Speaker 1: the whole game around that, and we say animals are 1402 01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,200 Speaker 1: individual persons and they have a right to to bodily 1403 01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,759 Speaker 1: autonomy and so on. That's when we bring in the experts. 1404 01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:17,000 Speaker 1: We bring in the the animal behaviorists, the biologists that 1405 01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,439 Speaker 1: you know, the Silicon Valley techie people, and and we 1406 01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:22,120 Speaker 1: we look at all these solutions. Is there a way 1407 01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:24,439 Speaker 1: to to control their breeding, Is there a way to 1408 01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:28,040 Speaker 1: maybe change their genetics, Maybe maybe animals can be bred 1409 01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:30,800 Speaker 1: away from from some of these habits and that that 1410 01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:34,720 Speaker 1: sounds like some sci fi stuff right now, but you know, 1411 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:36,559 Speaker 1: like we we we've we made it to the moon, 1412 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,000 Speaker 1: and we we got the Internet, and we got airplanes, 1413 01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:41,280 Speaker 1: and so you know, as much as as you rightfully 1414 01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:43,920 Speaker 1: point out also that humans are so destructive towards animals, 1415 01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,000 Speaker 1: I think we have the capacity to do great good 1416 01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:50,880 Speaker 1: if we were to you know, prioritize, prioritize doing it. 1417 01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:52,880 Speaker 1: The way that I look at the natural world is 1418 01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:56,120 Speaker 1: like it would be sad for me to change the 1419 01:16:56,160 --> 01:16:58,160 Speaker 1: grizzly bear, or I keep saying that that's not the 1420 01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:00,640 Speaker 1: only animal out there. It's like some reason I have 1421 01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:03,600 Speaker 1: a fixation in this conversation on grizzly bears. Um, it 1422 01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:08,040 Speaker 1: would be sad for me to to take that, to 1423 01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: change an elk from being an elk, or change a 1424 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,240 Speaker 1: deer for being a deer, or a songbird from being 1425 01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:14,880 Speaker 1: a somber. It would be sad for me because I like, like, 1426 01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,400 Speaker 1: I want to preserve the way that they are, right, um, 1427 01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:20,040 Speaker 1: And I don't want to adjust them in any way 1428 01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:23,040 Speaker 1: to kind of meet any feelings of of of what 1429 01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,479 Speaker 1: they should be. And so you see this when you 1430 01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:30,320 Speaker 1: remove apex predators from an environment, right, you see what 1431 01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,640 Speaker 1: it does to the prey. The prey. Part of an 1432 01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,879 Speaker 1: elk being an elk is that it has these forces 1433 01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,680 Speaker 1: that are fighting against it. Winter kill, we say, And 1434 01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:44,480 Speaker 1: in the and wildlife management, there's winter kill, there's predation, 1435 01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:48,240 Speaker 1: there's all these things that that affect animals, but they 1436 01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,000 Speaker 1: also make those animals what they are now. You may 1437 01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:54,679 Speaker 1: argue through history animals are changing based on additioning different 1438 01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:58,879 Speaker 1: conditions and different influences on those animals. But the animals 1439 01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,080 Speaker 1: the way that they are now, I kind of feel 1440 01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:04,840 Speaker 1: I would like to preserve that way. Like if I 1441 01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,519 Speaker 1: can kill one or two, or be a part of 1442 01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:11,960 Speaker 1: the management of one herd of elk, and that allows 1443 01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:16,040 Speaker 1: those elk to be elk forever. I would be happy 1444 01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:18,320 Speaker 1: with that. I wouldn't want to just for the sake 1445 01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:20,720 Speaker 1: of not killing them, change what they are, or change 1446 01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:23,120 Speaker 1: their breathing, or force them to be like that. That 1447 01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:28,680 Speaker 1: seems seems counterintuitive. I think it's. I mean, I I 1448 01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,680 Speaker 1: don't see that. There's not like a rationale behind it. 1449 01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:34,240 Speaker 1: It seems that seems sentimental frankly, and just just say 1450 01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,439 Speaker 1: like I I like, I like to appreciate the elk, 1451 01:18:36,479 --> 01:18:37,720 Speaker 1: and I want the elk to stay the way the 1452 01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,200 Speaker 1: elk is. It's like it isn't wouldn't there be their 1453 01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:44,960 Speaker 1: right to kind of their naturally? I haven't. Again, I don't. 1454 01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:46,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to just like hone in on only 1455 01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:50,519 Speaker 1: species be hunt. But that's that's my perspective. I don't 1456 01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,479 Speaker 1: when I see that when I see elk, I'm almost 1457 01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:55,760 Speaker 1: a preventionist in the way that I look at wildlife. 1458 01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:57,479 Speaker 1: When I see an elk, or I see a bear, 1459 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,120 Speaker 1: or I see a mountain lion, I don't go to 1460 01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:01,920 Speaker 1: go I don't want to change that. I want to 1461 01:19:01,960 --> 01:19:06,080 Speaker 1: preserve its relationship to other animals and to me and 1462 01:19:06,160 --> 01:19:09,160 Speaker 1: my my hunting is a better way to understand all 1463 01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:11,360 Speaker 1: that and be involved in that. And again going back 1464 01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:15,680 Speaker 1: to the value system, you know, emit a value on 1465 01:19:15,720 --> 01:19:19,000 Speaker 1: that animal that's more than just it being there. Like 1466 01:19:19,040 --> 01:19:20,599 Speaker 1: when I kill it, I hang it on my wall, 1467 01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:22,439 Speaker 1: so I so it can be a part of my life, 1468 01:19:22,479 --> 01:19:26,320 Speaker 1: It can be a part of my story. Um I eat, 1469 01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:28,479 Speaker 1: I eat it's flesh, so it can be a part 1470 01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:31,360 Speaker 1: of feeding my family. And I see that, and I 1471 01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:33,640 Speaker 1: can see how you guys see that as like a 1472 01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:36,719 Speaker 1: barbaric act. I get that, and I understand that that's, 1473 01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:40,880 Speaker 1: you know, something something that I'll have to and probably 1474 01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:42,960 Speaker 1: the rest of my life. Even explained to my son, Hey, 1475 01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:46,320 Speaker 1: look this is what I've I've done and been doing 1476 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:50,840 Speaker 1: my basically my whole life. My dad did it, my 1477 01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:53,840 Speaker 1: granddad before him did it. This is is as much 1478 01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:56,240 Speaker 1: part of me as anything. But I still that still 1479 01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:59,439 Speaker 1: doesn't give me the right not to rationalize it, not 1480 01:19:59,479 --> 01:20:01,960 Speaker 1: to think it through, not to understand what it means. 1481 01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,479 Speaker 1: And so in that way, I'm with you, you know. 1482 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,599 Speaker 1: So it's just like I want to just distinguish between 1483 01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,360 Speaker 1: you caring about the individual elk or the individual animal. 1484 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,120 Speaker 1: And and you know, the continuance of the you know, 1485 01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,040 Speaker 1: the elk, the elk that's that's before us today, isn't 1486 01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:19,679 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know, the continuance of species. It isn't 1487 01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, the scientific the definition of the 1488 01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,640 Speaker 1: word species is all the individuals who can uh copulate 1489 01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:28,840 Speaker 1: and reproduce viable offspring. Like the elk has no no, no, 1490 01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,080 Speaker 1: no notion of how many elk live in the world, 1491 01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:35,920 Speaker 1: the continuance of of the continued life of future elk, 1492 01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:37,960 Speaker 1: Like the elk isn't thinking about that. So the elk 1493 01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:41,679 Speaker 1: doesn't care or have any consciousness or even thought about 1494 01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:45,800 Speaker 1: the future elk or non elk or other animals or whatever. 1495 01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:48,679 Speaker 1: So the you know, so focusing on that elks existence. 1496 01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:50,600 Speaker 1: And I just I think that to just have an 1497 01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:53,880 Speaker 1: attachment to particular species, like I think there's not any 1498 01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:56,479 Speaker 1: species that really matters. The existence or not exists of 1499 01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,320 Speaker 1: any species only matters to the extent in my view, 1500 01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:02,720 Speaker 1: that it affects the individual you know, other individuals, so 1501 01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:05,080 Speaker 1: they're sentient. Like yeah, I think the principles of bio 1502 01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:08,120 Speaker 1: I think you're talking about like the principles of biodiversity, 1503 01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,200 Speaker 1: like the natural world needs all types of species working 1504 01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:14,840 Speaker 1: in in concert, even if they don't know it with 1505 01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:17,920 Speaker 1: each other. When in honeting, we talk about biodiversity all 1506 01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:19,360 Speaker 1: the time, and that's something that I think the hunting 1507 01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:22,920 Speaker 1: community has gotten better at understanding, but still needs, still 1508 01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,360 Speaker 1: has some ways to go as understanding. Not only do 1509 01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:27,960 Speaker 1: we care about the things that feed our families and 1510 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:29,920 Speaker 1: the things we go out and take out of the 1511 01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:33,599 Speaker 1: herd and bring home, but all the other things in 1512 01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:37,559 Speaker 1: these ecosystems that we go out and we removed things from. 1513 01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,040 Speaker 1: And I feel very strongly that you know, we were 1514 01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:42,639 Speaker 1: talking earlier about harvesting versus killing, we are going out 1515 01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,760 Speaker 1: into a landscape and removing something that we didn't put there, right, 1516 01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:50,240 Speaker 1: So there there is a relationship to that that differs 1517 01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,360 Speaker 1: from just going out and looking at through a pair 1518 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,800 Speaker 1: of binoculars, are looking at through any other device. So 1519 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:00,280 Speaker 1: there's a closeness that I have with with goals that 1520 01:22:00,280 --> 01:22:03,320 Speaker 1: I would posit that most people just don't have. UM. 1521 01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,000 Speaker 1: I feel that's a that's an additive to my life, 1522 01:22:06,040 --> 01:22:09,240 Speaker 1: an added it's a way I think about animals UM 1523 01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:11,680 Speaker 1: and that's something that hunters always argues, like, guys in 1524 01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,240 Speaker 1: your position, there may not be a way for you 1525 01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:18,120 Speaker 1: to kind of understand these animals in the way that 1526 01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,280 Speaker 1: I might understand them. And I just want to get 1527 01:22:21,280 --> 01:22:24,880 Speaker 1: your what's your reaction? I mean, I uh so, so 1528 01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,559 Speaker 1: for one thing, I um, I just I would I 1529 01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:28,840 Speaker 1: don't want to conflate. I don't know if you are, 1530 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:31,080 Speaker 1: but I think people might interpret like a conflation with 1531 01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:34,200 Speaker 1: you know, whatever fulfillment you get out of animals, like 1532 01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:36,519 Speaker 1: that's that's great, and like I get, you know, fulfillment 1533 01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:38,640 Speaker 1: out of my relationship with the dogs downstairs and that 1534 01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:41,960 Speaker 1: sort of a thing. But what's what's important is like, 1535 01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,639 Speaker 1: is that an exploitative relationship or is that not? So? 1536 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:48,360 Speaker 1: You know, I mean, humans who work in a facility 1537 01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:51,599 Speaker 1: for for disabled people, they might draw some fulfillment out 1538 01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:52,960 Speaker 1: of that, and you know, that might be a fulfilling 1539 01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:55,840 Speaker 1: thing for them due to help those individuals. But but 1540 01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,040 Speaker 1: that's not where that conversation starts. You didn't like build 1541 01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,200 Speaker 1: a facility and say, okay, let's have this facility for 1542 01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:02,559 Speaker 1: people to help them, and you know, have that be 1543 01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,559 Speaker 1: the purpose of it was for the betterment of those 1544 01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:08,720 Speaker 1: those humans. So I think that like it's great that 1545 01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:10,679 Speaker 1: it makes you feel good and that gives you these 1546 01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:12,920 Speaker 1: the sense of fulfillment in this closeness that you refer to. 1547 01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:14,960 Speaker 1: But I don't think that in and of itself is 1548 01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:18,120 Speaker 1: a no, no, no, not at all. And I think 1549 01:23:18,160 --> 01:23:21,519 Speaker 1: that I think all that, really, all that relationship does 1550 01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:25,479 Speaker 1: is make me feel way more intensely that I've got us. 1551 01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,400 Speaker 1: I've got to earn that, Like, I can't just go 1552 01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:32,240 Speaker 1: out and frivously kill animals. I've got to understand the ecosystem. 1553 01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:34,880 Speaker 1: I've got to understand um, I've got to understand our 1554 01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:38,920 Speaker 1: society and our culture. I've got to understand cohabitation. I've 1555 01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:41,280 Speaker 1: got to understand how an animals body works and what 1556 01:23:41,400 --> 01:23:43,280 Speaker 1: parts of his flesh I can eat and what I can't. 1557 01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,240 Speaker 1: I've got to understand conservation, how to make sure that 1558 01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:48,920 Speaker 1: there are the proper amounts of land for the proper 1559 01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:52,320 Speaker 1: amounts of animals. I gotta understand how how many elk 1560 01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,200 Speaker 1: do there need to be, how many uh songbirds don't 1561 01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:57,840 Speaker 1: need to be I feel pressure as a hunter to 1562 01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:01,599 Speaker 1: understand those things. So, yes, you're right to conflate like 1563 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:04,000 Speaker 1: to to continue to say like hunting enriches my life 1564 01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:06,240 Speaker 1: that's my relationship with this animal. I feel like it's 1565 01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,479 Speaker 1: deeper than other people. That's not a conflation of our 1566 01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:13,760 Speaker 1: justification of hunting. That's that's the my honest take on 1567 01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:17,960 Speaker 1: the result of my hunting if and that's just my 1568 01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,240 Speaker 1: personal experience. I can't speak for all hunters in that way. 1569 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,479 Speaker 1: My personal experiences I've gone hunting. The killing of the 1570 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:26,400 Speaker 1: animal is not a fun part for me. I don't 1571 01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:29,680 Speaker 1: I don't jump up and down. In fact, people that 1572 01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,639 Speaker 1: know me, I get get really calm when it happens, 1573 01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:34,439 Speaker 1: and I sit over the animal and I think about it, 1574 01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:36,599 Speaker 1: and I say thank you, and I go about my business, 1575 01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,360 Speaker 1: and so I do that. Um. But yes, completely agree 1576 01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:45,040 Speaker 1: that I would never conflate anything that happens to me 1577 01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:48,200 Speaker 1: through hunting is some justification for doing it. I'm also 1578 01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:52,040 Speaker 1: trying to think of this thing enriches me, but it 1579 01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:54,839 Speaker 1: does it also do good for the animal, for society, 1580 01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,240 Speaker 1: and I think society in the way that you guys 1581 01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:00,640 Speaker 1: challenge hunting. It's it's the quite and is like, is 1582 01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:03,679 Speaker 1: this good for society? Is this good for our collective group? 1583 01:25:04,280 --> 01:25:07,400 Speaker 1: You know? Is this killing of animals good for everyone? 1584 01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,360 Speaker 1: And to the point where we can say the point 1585 01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:12,720 Speaker 1: where like you or someone else might say no to that. 1586 01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:15,360 Speaker 1: I disagree, But I think is that the question? Well, 1587 01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,680 Speaker 1: so I think I think that you are you know, 1588 01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:20,719 Speaker 1: I think we're both trying to answer the same question, 1589 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, as you alluded to, And I think there 1590 01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:27,559 Speaker 1: are certain circumstances in a very very immediate term type 1591 01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:30,280 Speaker 1: of sense where it's you know, I think and I 1592 01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:33,160 Speaker 1: know you've made the point that people who hunt care 1593 01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:35,040 Speaker 1: more about animals and people who don't hunch. I think 1594 01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:37,680 Speaker 1: reverencing referencing people who eat. I don't want to put 1595 01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:38,880 Speaker 1: it that. I don't want to put it that. I 1596 01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:40,280 Speaker 1: think I know it. Yeah, I was gonna clarify. I 1597 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:42,200 Speaker 1: think you mean like people who eat factory farm animals 1598 01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:45,240 Speaker 1: and don't don't like you said we were saying earlier 1599 01:25:45,240 --> 01:25:47,120 Speaker 1: at lunch. And I think this is a good point 1600 01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:50,000 Speaker 1: to be made that if I were one questions like, 1601 01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,280 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get you done to go hunt with me, 1602 01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:55,000 Speaker 1: and I probably are. I'm probably not going to go 1603 01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:58,160 Speaker 1: to an animal rights Actually I might do that, who knows, 1604 01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:02,479 Speaker 1: um we're not going to get there. But one thing 1605 01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:04,000 Speaker 1: I would ask of you, and I'm asking this of 1606 01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:05,960 Speaker 1: you I'm not telling you this that you should feel. 1607 01:26:05,960 --> 01:26:08,040 Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, if if someone was gonna eat me, 1608 01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:10,400 Speaker 1: do you feel that hunting is a better way than 1609 01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:14,200 Speaker 1: all the other ways. I that's a tricky question because 1610 01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:16,320 Speaker 1: I think, like all the concerns that you raise, you know, 1611 01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:21,679 Speaker 1: it probably is pretty pretty pretty certainly actually causes less 1612 01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,400 Speaker 1: immediate term suffering. There are some complicated questions around, um, 1613 01:26:25,640 --> 01:26:28,439 Speaker 1: when you kind of normalize animal use. So so you know, 1614 01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:31,160 Speaker 1: in another context, you have these companies like Whole Foods 1615 01:26:31,160 --> 01:26:33,599 Speaker 1: that that tout everything is humane and make people feel 1616 01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,120 Speaker 1: really good about consuming animals and in some ways like 1617 01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:37,760 Speaker 1: maybe their farms are a tiny bit and I do 1618 01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,559 Speaker 1: mean a tiny bit better. Um, But at the same time, 1619 01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,840 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of I think there is a harm 1620 01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:46,519 Speaker 1: done in terms of making people feel good about you know, 1621 01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:48,960 Speaker 1: a kind an idea ideology that that you know, a 1622 01:26:48,960 --> 01:26:50,320 Speaker 1: bottom line at the end of the day, we want 1623 01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:53,559 Speaker 1: to see overthrown. And so I mean, I think you're 1624 01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:56,439 Speaker 1: certainly correct, You're certainly more thoughtful than the average person, 1625 01:26:56,479 --> 01:27:00,080 Speaker 1: and you're certainly causing less harm less suffering toward to 1626 01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:03,360 Speaker 1: animals than the average person on the street. So um, 1627 01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:06,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a complicated it's a complicated thing. 1628 01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:08,320 Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, we're in terms of opposing 1629 01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:10,920 Speaker 1: factory farm you know where you know A long ways. 1630 01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:15,560 Speaker 1: When I when I see let's see the documentars on 1631 01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:17,240 Speaker 1: factory farms, and you see some of the even in 1632 01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:19,000 Speaker 1: some of the videos I've seen that you guys have produced, 1633 01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:23,920 Speaker 1: you just don't I don't feel I feel cheated, man. 1634 01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:28,600 Speaker 1: I feel like society wants to to cheat me and 1635 01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:31,640 Speaker 1: trick me, like it wants to present this reality that 1636 01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:36,040 Speaker 1: isn't true. I feel I don't know where it began. 1637 01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:39,320 Speaker 1: I haven't looked, but I don't feel as though the 1638 01:27:39,439 --> 01:27:42,080 Speaker 1: drive through with Chick fil A wants to present me 1639 01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:44,320 Speaker 1: with the reality. I feel like it wants to just 1640 01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,920 Speaker 1: sell me. It's wears and we were talking about it earlier. 1641 01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:48,840 Speaker 1: It seems silly to me to put a cartoon chicken 1642 01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:52,080 Speaker 1: on a bag with a dead chicken in it. I mean, 1643 01:27:52,120 --> 01:27:55,439 Speaker 1: it doesn't it seems silly. So I I just feel 1644 01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:59,400 Speaker 1: as you feel. I'm sure that is this a disingenuous 1645 01:27:59,479 --> 01:28:03,720 Speaker 1: nature to a way that our industries, factory farms and 1646 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:08,400 Speaker 1: others present the reality of these situations, And and how 1647 01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,840 Speaker 1: could you be in that situation conveniently forget to make 1648 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:15,639 Speaker 1: sure everyone understood that there's a dead chicken in that bag, 1649 01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:18,800 Speaker 1: you know, And so what's what's the rationale for that? 1650 01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:20,800 Speaker 1: I feel. I feel the rationale is more people will 1651 01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:22,920 Speaker 1: buy the chicken sandwich if they're not connecting it to 1652 01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:25,400 Speaker 1: a dead chicken. Yeah, it's I mean, you you just 1653 01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:28,120 Speaker 1: look at kind of like what's what's normalized around people? 1654 01:28:28,280 --> 01:28:29,960 Speaker 1: And they, you know, the same people if they saw 1655 01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:32,440 Speaker 1: what was going on inside a chicklay farms, they they'd 1656 01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:35,720 Speaker 1: be totally put off by it. And then you know, 1657 01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:37,960 Speaker 1: maybe that caused them to change or maybe they kind 1658 01:28:37,960 --> 01:28:39,640 Speaker 1: of forget about it a few hours later, and the 1659 01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:42,600 Speaker 1: whole the rest of the world is continues to to 1660 01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:44,240 Speaker 1: normalize it. So you end up with a lot of 1661 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:47,559 Speaker 1: good people participating in some some bad stuff. Yeah, and 1662 01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,960 Speaker 1: there's there there there's a self destructive nature, I think, 1663 01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,120 Speaker 1: to humanity. And and we we have taken over the 1664 01:28:54,200 --> 01:28:57,160 Speaker 1: last part four decades, we've taken cigarettes and made them, 1665 01:28:57,200 --> 01:28:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, and out at them and said, look look 1666 01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:01,760 Speaker 1: at what this is. Cigarettes is not good for you. 1667 01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:05,879 Speaker 1: They are not good for you. The the the tobacco 1668 01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:10,719 Speaker 1: industry has been deceiving you intentionally for decades. But even then, 1669 01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,320 Speaker 1: even after all that, even after forcing them to put 1670 01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:17,400 Speaker 1: pictures of decaying lungs on their product, people are still 1671 01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:21,080 Speaker 1: hitting the hitting the sick in twenty nineteen. And so 1672 01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:27,160 Speaker 1: there's something about there's something about that intentional deception of 1673 01:29:27,160 --> 01:29:30,320 Speaker 1: the of of like an industry or industrial nature that 1674 01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:34,920 Speaker 1: is always going to work on on some people enough 1675 01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:37,040 Speaker 1: to make it worth it for that industry to deceive you. 1676 01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:40,160 Speaker 1: It seems. Um, you go to the line, you can 1677 01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:41,840 Speaker 1: see the line of Chick fil A's out the door, 1678 01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:46,120 Speaker 1: you know. Um, And so yeah, I mean that we 1679 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:49,439 Speaker 1: agree on that all day. I my my values around 1680 01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:53,679 Speaker 1: animals are always shifting and changing, and I'm always having 1681 01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:56,880 Speaker 1: to go back and think about why am I killing 1682 01:29:56,920 --> 01:29:59,439 Speaker 1: this thing? What am I doing with it? How can 1683 01:29:59,479 --> 01:30:02,280 Speaker 1: I do that better? So I guess for for folks 1684 01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:05,800 Speaker 1: that are that are there and watching them watched this 1685 01:30:05,840 --> 01:30:08,479 Speaker 1: whole time, I would say that that part of why 1686 01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,880 Speaker 1: this podcast exists. And I think part of the new 1687 01:30:11,920 --> 01:30:15,439 Speaker 1: generation of hunters that I've seen, part of what we're 1688 01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:18,040 Speaker 1: trying to do is understand ethically and morally what we're doing. 1689 01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:22,720 Speaker 1: We're in generation generations before us that wasn't there as much. 1690 01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:26,440 Speaker 1: Honey was a thing we always did and it was accepted. 1691 01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:28,680 Speaker 1: I think now we're starting to question more. I think 1692 01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:31,599 Speaker 1: that leads to this conversation. Yeah, it's certainly good that 1693 01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:35,200 Speaker 1: those questions are being raised. And I think that you know, 1694 01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean, to me, there's so there's this question there 1695 01:30:38,200 --> 01:30:41,640 Speaker 1: that it's you know, what what what what what is 1696 01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:43,799 Speaker 1: this this trait of that that you know, we wouldn't 1697 01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:46,800 Speaker 1: we would never justify. You know, humans are overpopulated, and 1698 01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:50,680 Speaker 1: so we're going to you know, we're we're gonna we're 1699 01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:52,920 Speaker 1: just gonna just gonna shoot him down, like hey, this 1700 01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,160 Speaker 1: is all this is the best we can do. Whereby 1701 01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, that is what we say with animals and 1702 01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:00,320 Speaker 1: even look at um, you know, even people who who 1703 01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:02,120 Speaker 1: are who are putting a lot more thought into it 1704 01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:04,519 Speaker 1: than than than than most you know, most of the 1705 01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:06,960 Speaker 1: rest of the world is um. You know, there is 1706 01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:08,760 Speaker 1: this species is m where you're looking at them as 1707 01:31:08,760 --> 01:31:10,680 Speaker 1: an object, as a means of entertainment. I mean, you 1708 01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:12,800 Speaker 1: look at something like bow hunting in general, like even 1709 01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,200 Speaker 1: if we said like okay, let's just you know, grant, okay, 1710 01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,760 Speaker 1: they the best thing to do is to kill off 1711 01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:22,479 Speaker 1: these animals. You know, this animal right here, like you 1712 01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:24,519 Speaker 1: know why you do this bow hunting thing where you 1713 01:31:24,560 --> 01:31:27,519 Speaker 1: have like blood tracking and in many instances where you're 1714 01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:29,120 Speaker 1: like chasing down for days and it just seems like 1715 01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:31,160 Speaker 1: you're trying to like make this like fun little human 1716 01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:33,400 Speaker 1: game out of it, this human centered thing game out 1717 01:31:33,400 --> 01:31:35,599 Speaker 1: of it, instead of just saying like, Okay, if you've 1718 01:31:35,640 --> 01:31:37,120 Speaker 1: come to that place, which is a huge if that 1719 01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:38,680 Speaker 1: you have to kill these animals, you need to do it, 1720 01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:41,040 Speaker 1: and it is this most efficient way possible. Yeah, we 1721 01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:42,320 Speaker 1: talk about that a lot of the time. We talk 1722 01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:46,080 Speaker 1: about an argument, We talk about fair chase right. And 1723 01:31:46,160 --> 01:31:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm been open on this podcast in past episodes of 1724 01:31:49,439 --> 01:31:52,200 Speaker 1: talking about fair chase right? Is fair to fair to what? 1725 01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,120 Speaker 1: Like you know, there's there's there's a lot of oxymoronic 1726 01:31:56,160 --> 01:31:58,679 Speaker 1: things that go on with this this topic in general. 1727 01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:01,320 Speaker 1: And I will say before I get to that, we 1728 01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:05,360 Speaker 1: have archery seasons, so so more people can go hunting, 1729 01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:09,080 Speaker 1: they can hunt longer. Right with with archery tackle, your 1730 01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:12,360 Speaker 1: efficiency is going to be lower. And that's how state 1731 01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:15,639 Speaker 1: game agencies, state governments, and even the federal government get 1732 01:32:15,680 --> 01:32:18,000 Speaker 1: into how do we have an archery season than a 1733 01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:20,439 Speaker 1: muzzle older season, which is which is a less efficient 1734 01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:23,800 Speaker 1: firearm than a high powered center fire rifle. So we 1735 01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:27,400 Speaker 1: have different levels of hunting to allow for us to say, 1736 01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:30,960 Speaker 1: the state game agencies and and the state governments will 1737 01:32:30,960 --> 01:32:33,240 Speaker 1: go in and say, okay, Colorado, you can kill this 1738 01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:35,760 Speaker 1: many elk, and this unit, this many elk can this unit. 1739 01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:39,400 Speaker 1: They do that through population surveys and other things, harvest 1740 01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:42,400 Speaker 1: surveys from hunters as well, So they do those things, 1741 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:44,640 Speaker 1: they identify how many elk they can kill, and then 1742 01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:47,000 Speaker 1: they allot those l per season. Right. So that's a 1743 01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:49,240 Speaker 1: human center. It's not it's all. No, I would say 1744 01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:52,240 Speaker 1: it's most definitely human center, but it's also animal centered. 1745 01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:54,840 Speaker 1: It's centered around We're not doing that because we like 1746 01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:57,880 Speaker 1: bows and we like guns. We're doing that because we 1747 01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:01,240 Speaker 1: do want the most hunting opportunity. We don't like Hunters 1748 01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:03,519 Speaker 1: don't see it the way that that you guys see it, 1749 01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:04,760 Speaker 1: so we don't see it as a bad thing. So 1750 01:33:04,800 --> 01:33:08,920 Speaker 1: we think more hunting opportunity the better, right, But there 1751 01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:10,839 Speaker 1: is I mean, and I've said this on this podcast 1752 01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:15,839 Speaker 1: in recent weeks, there is an issue with the hypothesis saying, hey, 1753 01:33:16,040 --> 01:33:17,760 Speaker 1: I want the meat. Well, if you want to me, 1754 01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:19,320 Speaker 1: why don't you just go get in the most efficient 1755 01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:24,240 Speaker 1: way possible. So I'm not I'm really probably not in 1756 01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:26,880 Speaker 1: a place just just totally disagree with you there. But 1757 01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:32,000 Speaker 1: at the same time we have there's a million things 1758 01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:34,759 Speaker 1: you can do as as a hunter in the experience 1759 01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:37,360 Speaker 1: of hunting before you get to the killing that doesn't 1760 01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:40,200 Speaker 1: seem to make sense or that doesn't seem to to 1761 01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:42,040 Speaker 1: get up to the killing part. And so what I 1762 01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:44,960 Speaker 1: argue generally is not fair chase. I'm not trying to 1763 01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,599 Speaker 1: be fair to the animal in my pursuit of the animal. 1764 01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:50,320 Speaker 1: I want to kill it as efficiently as humanly possible. 1765 01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:52,760 Speaker 1: In the pursuit of the animal, which is oftentimes a 1766 01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:56,640 Speaker 1: very hard thing to do, I'm thinking in different terms 1767 01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:58,599 Speaker 1: than when I get to the actual killing of it. 1768 01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, if I just wanted to kill animals, I 1769 01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:02,960 Speaker 1: would find animals on the side of the road and 1770 01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:04,519 Speaker 1: just shoot him and put them back in my truck, 1771 01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:05,960 Speaker 1: cut him up and eat him if that's all I 1772 01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:09,880 Speaker 1: was there to do. There's other benefits that I tellt 1773 01:34:10,439 --> 01:34:12,840 Speaker 1: that mean a lot to me, And as I said, 1774 01:34:12,880 --> 01:34:15,920 Speaker 1: that's humans. Those are human centered things. But at the 1775 01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:17,639 Speaker 1: end of the day, I can sit back and go, Okay, 1776 01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:22,040 Speaker 1: that question is is this thing I'm doing good? Right? 1777 01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,479 Speaker 1: It's good for me? Yes, Personally, it's good for me. 1778 01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:26,560 Speaker 1: It's great for me, and it has done things for 1779 01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:30,479 Speaker 1: my life that no one could understand. I imagine that 1780 01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:33,000 Speaker 1: that isn't that hasn't been with me for those experiences. 1781 01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:35,000 Speaker 1: So you have that part it has. It has been 1782 01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:36,439 Speaker 1: good for me, it's been good for my family. It's 1783 01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:39,360 Speaker 1: fed him a lot. Then they love it. Um has 1784 01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:42,120 Speaker 1: it done good for the animal? Yeah, I mean there's 1785 01:34:42,120 --> 01:34:44,960 Speaker 1: more wild turkeys, there's more elk, there's more deer, there's 1786 01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:49,800 Speaker 1: more Mallard ducks than than a hundred years. But I 1787 01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:51,639 Speaker 1: think that the whole like notion of like the further 1788 01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:54,200 Speaker 1: who his species is also a human centered because they think, again, 1789 01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:57,280 Speaker 1: the mallard duck doesn't think how many more Mallard ducks? 1790 01:34:57,320 --> 01:34:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean, why wouldn't they think how many more ducks? 1791 01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:01,479 Speaker 1: Why don't they how many more animals? Why wouldn't they 1792 01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:03,880 Speaker 1: you know, like the mallard duck. The individual mallard duck 1793 01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:08,960 Speaker 1: doesn't well yeah, yeah, the individual mallard duck doesn't. But 1794 01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,679 Speaker 1: that individual mallew duck also doesn't understand that it needs 1795 01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:17,439 Speaker 1: other mallard ducks. It needs nests, it needs wetlands, it 1796 01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:20,920 Speaker 1: needs the prairie pothole region. And we as humans, because 1797 01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:22,880 Speaker 1: we are different than the duck, can go and say, hey, 1798 01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:25,880 Speaker 1: what does that duck? We have organizations the Duck's Unlimited 1799 01:35:26,479 --> 01:35:30,200 Speaker 1: Um and Rocky Mount Nulk Foundation that are there to say, okay, 1800 01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:33,200 Speaker 1: what does that Even though I'm a hunter and I'm 1801 01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:35,960 Speaker 1: I'm out to when i'm hunting kill them, what can 1802 01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,280 Speaker 1: I do to make sure that we maintain this not 1803 01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,720 Speaker 1: just that individual duck. And again, I think this is 1804 01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,840 Speaker 1: where we will continue kind of bounce off each other. 1805 01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,840 Speaker 1: Not that individual duck. That individual duck matters, but it 1806 01:35:47,880 --> 01:35:51,040 Speaker 1: only matters as part of that whole because that because 1807 01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:54,320 Speaker 1: those species matter to the ecosystem, that ecosystem matters to 1808 01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,559 Speaker 1: the greater ecosystem. And if we can take care of 1809 01:35:57,560 --> 01:36:00,400 Speaker 1: those individual species and the individual habit that's in a 1810 01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:03,920 Speaker 1: way that we'll make a whole lot of sense, then 1811 01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:06,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna be will we just find these animals will 1812 01:36:06,040 --> 01:36:08,320 Speaker 1: be just fine, and we'll have taken the thing that 1813 01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,960 Speaker 1: enriches us, the human center part will have participated in that, 1814 01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:15,920 Speaker 1: but only if, if, and only if the human center 1815 01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:20,040 Speaker 1: part also benefits the greater population of animals. And that's 1816 01:36:20,040 --> 01:36:23,320 Speaker 1: that's that's I think the concept of hunting and we'll 1817 01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:26,080 Speaker 1: I think we know where we just don't line up there. Yeah, 1818 01:36:26,160 --> 01:36:28,760 Speaker 1: so so I think like that that's moving us in 1819 01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,240 Speaker 1: a good direction though, so it's not you know, the 1820 01:36:31,920 --> 01:36:34,880 Speaker 1: greatest goods. So basically like kind of this net sum 1821 01:36:34,960 --> 01:36:38,400 Speaker 1: of maximum kind of well being in happiness and minimum 1822 01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:41,680 Speaker 1: kind of suffering, whether that means zero mallards or a 1823 01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,240 Speaker 1: billion mallards, like whatever, that net sum is, like, that's 1824 01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:48,960 Speaker 1: what we're kind of after. And to me, um, you 1825 01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:51,559 Speaker 1: know again, it's just that it's always been the case 1826 01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,320 Speaker 1: that when you elevate the a class of individuals, you know, 1827 01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:57,280 Speaker 1: the rights of the individual within that that that the 1828 01:36:57,400 --> 01:36:59,760 Speaker 1: entire class of an individuals on the whole has been 1829 01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,759 Speaker 1: better off. So I don't see, you know an argument 1830 01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:05,080 Speaker 1: I mean, number one, an argument where it's not logically 1831 01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:08,160 Speaker 1: consistent to did you know, too, did we deny rights 1832 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:10,200 Speaker 1: to humans that we don't give to other animals? And 1833 01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:12,200 Speaker 1: number two like why if we did do that, why 1834 01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:14,320 Speaker 1: it wouldn't follow the same results that we've seen with 1835 01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:17,200 Speaker 1: all these movements throughout history were like, you know, nobody's 1836 01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:18,840 Speaker 1: saying like, oh, we should go back and you know, 1837 01:37:19,040 --> 01:37:21,519 Speaker 1: remove rights from X, Y Z individual Like I don't 1838 01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,360 Speaker 1: see a world where we have animal personhood, where where 1839 01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:26,960 Speaker 1: there's just not a massive improvement in the overall well 1840 01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:29,280 Speaker 1: being of life on Earth. Like I said in the 1841 01:37:29,360 --> 01:37:33,120 Speaker 1: very beginning, like it's weighty for for any movement to change. 1842 01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,439 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a would be if twenty years 1843 01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:38,559 Speaker 1: from now we're animal personhood is a thing that would 1844 01:37:38,560 --> 01:37:41,400 Speaker 1: be a huge, huge sea change in our culture and 1845 01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:44,519 Speaker 1: society and our humanity. Uh, it would be, it would 1846 01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:46,599 Speaker 1: be monumental, will be probably one of the biggest changes 1847 01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:50,000 Speaker 1: in our species ever. Um. And so that's I mean, 1848 01:37:50,479 --> 01:37:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, I coul said, actually, be like prove that. 1849 01:37:53,439 --> 01:37:55,519 Speaker 1: But I don't want to do that. I don't I 1850 01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:57,000 Speaker 1: want to give the idea of the credence that I 1851 01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:58,920 Speaker 1: think it deserves, which is that that that there's a 1852 01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:01,600 Speaker 1: lot of people that believe that there's are people that 1853 01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:03,960 Speaker 1: that fight for it. And and to Joe's point, Joe 1854 01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:05,240 Speaker 1: and I talked about this all the time, and I 1855 01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,240 Speaker 1: talked about with all a lot of other people I believe, 1856 01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:13,839 Speaker 1: I truly believe humans are consumption engines, like most beings 1857 01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:17,920 Speaker 1: on this earth are consumption of ends. We were born 1858 01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:20,599 Speaker 1: into this world to consume things. There's nothing we can 1859 01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:22,799 Speaker 1: do about it, like if we if we stop consuming, 1860 01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:26,120 Speaker 1: we die. And so we know that, and we know 1861 01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:28,040 Speaker 1: that's the same for animals. We know that's the same 1862 01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:30,719 Speaker 1: for for most beings on this planet that they consume. 1863 01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:34,479 Speaker 1: And so I give all vegans of respect, and I 1864 01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:36,240 Speaker 1: would give you respect to the thing that like if 1865 01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:38,360 Speaker 1: if we're all looking at how we consume and we're 1866 01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:42,160 Speaker 1: being critical of it, and then I think that's that's 1867 01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:47,040 Speaker 1: that's being progressively good, like just saying I really got 1868 01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:49,680 Speaker 1: to figure out this consumption thing because I can't get 1869 01:38:49,680 --> 01:38:51,920 Speaker 1: around it. I can't stop consuming, but I could maybe 1870 01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:54,599 Speaker 1: better consume, you know, And I think generationally I want 1871 01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:56,360 Speaker 1: my kid to think like that. I went in to think, 1872 01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:59,439 Speaker 1: how can I better consume? How can I better treat animals? 1873 01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:01,920 Speaker 1: How can I better understand what animals are? What I am, 1874 01:39:02,080 --> 01:39:05,880 Speaker 1: my balance with them, except my argument where where we differ. 1875 01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:07,640 Speaker 1: My argument is hunting has helped me do that. But 1876 01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:09,800 Speaker 1: I could see how people would would wonder why that 1877 01:39:09,960 --> 01:39:13,519 Speaker 1: is um, and so I think my podcast and these 1878 01:39:13,560 --> 01:39:16,000 Speaker 1: conversations are just like a journey to be able to 1879 01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,120 Speaker 1: better articulate that. I think you challenging me in ways 1880 01:39:19,120 --> 01:39:21,080 Speaker 1: and me challenging you in ways will help us better 1881 01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:25,880 Speaker 1: articulate our beliefs later on. Then, Um, if, if, if this, 1882 01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:27,880 Speaker 1: and only if that and only that is what comes 1883 01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:29,640 Speaker 1: to this podcast, I think that's great. But I think 1884 01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:33,679 Speaker 1: probably more came from with than that. Yeah, absolutely cool. Well, 1885 01:39:33,720 --> 01:39:36,960 Speaker 1: I think, um, you know, I really want to elevate 1886 01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:38,840 Speaker 1: I think for your audience, for ours, Like I mean, 1887 01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:42,519 Speaker 1: in alignment in opposition to factory farming, is is something 1888 01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:45,240 Speaker 1: that that you know, i'd encourage people to get involved with. 1889 01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:48,760 Speaker 1: I think there's it's just undeniable that it's you know, 1890 01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:51,719 Speaker 1: frankly about it is unethical industry is could possibly exist 1891 01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:54,599 Speaker 1: animal agriculture, I mean, what's happening to animals, what it's 1892 01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,920 Speaker 1: doing the environment, even even to human health. Um, So 1893 01:39:57,960 --> 01:39:59,600 Speaker 1: I think that'd be a you know, I think for 1894 01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:02,439 Speaker 1: people to look into. Um yeah, I think that I 1895 01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:04,559 Speaker 1: think that is is big of an impact as that 1896 01:40:04,600 --> 01:40:07,080 Speaker 1: has in our world and who we are you better 1897 01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:09,160 Speaker 1: damn we'll be looking into it. You can't turn a 1898 01:40:09,160 --> 01:40:11,000 Speaker 1: blind eye to it, even if you don't agree with 1899 01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:14,439 Speaker 1: what Matt's saying. If you're like, yeah, but then you 1900 01:40:14,479 --> 01:40:16,280 Speaker 1: have a you have a bunch of retorts, and you 1901 01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:19,120 Speaker 1: think factory farming is useful and there's there's humane ways 1902 01:40:19,160 --> 01:40:21,920 Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, I'm with you, okay, But you 1903 01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:24,960 Speaker 1: gotta look into it, man, You have to. You cannot 1904 01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:27,439 Speaker 1: turn away from it. You can't eat that bag of 1905 01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:32,520 Speaker 1: chicken and not be thinking about you can't. And and 1906 01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:34,400 Speaker 1: we all, we all have our things. Man, I like 1907 01:40:34,400 --> 01:40:37,040 Speaker 1: I said, I'll rip out a nice chicken sandwich and 1908 01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:40,360 Speaker 1: the airport like as good as anybody. But I'm always 1909 01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:44,439 Speaker 1: understanding of of I gotta get better. There's there's ways 1910 01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:46,960 Speaker 1: that I can consume that's better than this, and hunting 1911 01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:49,360 Speaker 1: has been one of hopefully the many vehicles for me 1912 01:40:49,400 --> 01:40:52,680 Speaker 1: to do that. But but but yeah, looking like you know, 1913 01:40:53,479 --> 01:40:56,960 Speaker 1: direct action everywhere, Like there's I watched all the videos, 1914 01:40:57,240 --> 01:41:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, I love the ones that we're on there. 1915 01:41:01,160 --> 01:41:02,880 Speaker 1: I watched them all because I just wanted to see, 1916 01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:05,559 Speaker 1: you know what in two and I will admit to 1917 01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:09,640 Speaker 1: having like meeting you guys and putting a face to 1918 01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:13,080 Speaker 1: your organization and putting a conversation and ideas to it 1919 01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:14,920 Speaker 1: has helped me not to like see those videos and 1920 01:41:15,320 --> 01:41:19,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna look at those extremists run around with chickens. 1921 01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:21,720 Speaker 1: It's like, it's not It's not that, man, it's not that. 1922 01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:23,960 Speaker 1: So those who are listening to this podcast that that 1923 01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:28,160 Speaker 1: may want to label Matt or or you know, those 1924 01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:31,880 Speaker 1: that are listening on d x c s the thing 1925 01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:33,800 Speaker 1: you want to label me. I would just encourage you 1926 01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:36,920 Speaker 1: to listen to the conversation's totality takes someone away from it. 1927 01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:39,880 Speaker 1: You go about your freaking day like you can learn 1928 01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:42,519 Speaker 1: something from this, I promise you, and you will be 1929 01:41:42,520 --> 01:41:45,559 Speaker 1: better for it. All right, all right, sounds great. Yeah, 1930 01:41:45,600 --> 01:41:47,639 Speaker 1: if you for anybody who's listening out there, direct Action 1931 01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:51,000 Speaker 1: everywhere dot Com, direct actually every on Facebook, definitely give 1932 01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:53,519 Speaker 1: it a look and I will certainly tag you in 1933 01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:55,760 Speaker 1: our stuff and get that promo going too. Awesome, brother, 1934 01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:59,160 Speaker 1: all right, thanks so much man, Thank you, Matt. I 1935 01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:03,800 Speaker 1: guess a cool up on an all day row. That's it. 1936 01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:06,160 Speaker 1: That's all another episode in the books, in fact, this 1937 01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:10,280 Speaker 1: time number seventy. Thank you to Matt Johnson and all 1938 01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:14,600 Speaker 1: his colleagues. That direct Action everywhere we covered kind of 1939 01:42:14,600 --> 01:42:19,479 Speaker 1: the reaction to and the results of the conversation. Like 1940 01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:21,400 Speaker 1: I said, there was parts that disappointed me, there was 1941 01:42:21,479 --> 01:42:25,639 Speaker 1: parts that were very enlightening. Um, it's a complicated situation 1942 01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:28,360 Speaker 1: and it's something that I'll continue to want to dive 1943 01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:33,000 Speaker 1: into just just because it's challenging. And again, what's what's 1944 01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:35,200 Speaker 1: it worth having ideas that you feel strongly about if 1945 01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:37,759 Speaker 1: you're not willing to test them on on on folks 1946 01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:41,880 Speaker 1: like Matt who think really the opposite of how I think, 1947 01:42:41,880 --> 01:42:46,160 Speaker 1: and their worldviews are indirect um conflict with mine. So 1948 01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:50,120 Speaker 1: I was driving away in their old rental car on 1949 01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:54,400 Speaker 1: the highway in Berkeley, California after the interview, just doing 1950 01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:55,720 Speaker 1: one of those damn it, I should have said this. 1951 01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:57,759 Speaker 1: Damn it, I should have said that. But I really, 1952 01:42:58,160 --> 01:43:01,840 Speaker 1: in retrospect think that was good for me and it 1953 01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:04,960 Speaker 1: was a good way to better articulate things that I 1954 01:43:05,040 --> 01:43:07,000 Speaker 1: might not have been able to before. I said that 1955 01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:10,120 Speaker 1: with Matt. So very very thankful to those guys to 1956 01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,639 Speaker 1: having that conversation and speaking on what they believe, because 1957 01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:17,760 Speaker 1: they believe it very firmly. What else, Oh, the meat 1958 01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:21,559 Speaker 1: eater dot com has a store. You should go to it. 1959 01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:24,080 Speaker 1: As always I probably say it every podcast, which would 1960 01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:28,280 Speaker 1: definitely go there and should get the Aldo Freaking Leopold shirt. 1961 01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:33,160 Speaker 1: You should get the pro Nuance, the anti bullshit t 1962 01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:38,000 Speaker 1: that's there, and there's some other hats. There's the yetty 1963 01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:41,240 Speaker 1: rambler with the Hunt Collective logo. There's lots of stuff 1964 01:43:41,240 --> 01:43:43,200 Speaker 1: there that you can go and check out, so please 1965 01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:46,760 Speaker 1: do it would be very much appreciate. On this end, 1966 01:43:47,439 --> 01:43:51,880 Speaker 1: and next week we're gonna be joined by vegan philosopher 1967 01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:56,000 Speaker 1: Robert C. Jones. You can see him on Stars in 1968 01:43:56,040 --> 01:43:59,800 Speaker 1: the Sky, the documentary by Steve and Ronnella, and then 1969 01:43:59,840 --> 01:44:01,559 Speaker 1: you and hear him on this podcast. It's another really 1970 01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:05,799 Speaker 1: good conversation, very very very very interesting, and I enjoyed 1971 01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:09,080 Speaker 1: him very much. So we'll see you next week. We'll 1972 01:44:09,160 --> 01:44:13,439 Speaker 1: leave you with old number seven by using your eyes off. 1973 01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:18,559 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jack Daniels. Oh number seven, Tennessee whiskey got 1974 01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:21,600 Speaker 1: me dragging in heaven and uh and just stopped to 1975 01:44:21,720 --> 01:44:25,120 Speaker 1: look good to me. They're gonna have to department to 1976 01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:32,880 Speaker 1: the far red, to the fire red, getting in the 1977 01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:40,080 Speaker 1: far drag in heaven.