1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: where we explore some of the big money issues the 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: world of sports. I'm Michael Barr. Oh oh oh, look 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: who's here? That was my welcome back, Carter Dan Schwartzman. Hello, man, 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: welcome to the Bloomberg Business a sports guest host. It 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: is great to be here and to be with the 7 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: legendary voice of Michael Barr. He must be talking about 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Damien sass him as well. Yeah, what about me? You 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: don't sound like Barry White, damian legend in my own mind. 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: We have a lot to talk about today and it 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: is a serious topic. We're talking about former players x 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: NFL running back he's trying to get support in his 13 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: disability benefits in the appeal and with us to talk 14 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: about that in a great article about it is Jackline Willey, 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: our own Bloomberg Business of Sports, Jack Win Willy, thank 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, Jackie right here on 17 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: the Lumberg Business Sports. Sure, thanks for having me. Well, 18 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: let's start first of all, and we were all talking 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: about this then, we were all talking about this before 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: we went on the air. Being a pro football player, 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: especially is tremendously hard, and the amount of punishment your 22 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: body takes is out of control. Absolutely. This is this 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: case that we're talking about today was from a former 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: running back. He played seven seasons in the early two thousands. 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: He says he's sustained a lot of concussions, head trauma, 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: and now he's suffering from memory and cognitive issues and 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: he's been trying to get benefits. He's been getting a 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: lower level for a while since about two thousand and nine, 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: and now his case is up at the Fifth Circuit 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals. Jacqueline, you know, it's a sad situation 31 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: when you read about stories like this with these young 32 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: men who obviously are in the mind of fans gladiators 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: the way that we view football players. But to a point, 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: while the NFL, I think, handles this incorrectly at all times, 35 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: and they seem to be just disingenous, disingenuous when it 36 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: comes to players safety, the fact though, is, isn't the 37 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: league to a point protecting itself, because when you talk 38 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: about rosters of fifty plus guys, you know thirty two 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: teams are probably going to expand at some point. Most 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: of these guys would have claims of disability when their 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: careers end because they are taking brutal hits. That said, 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: for the NFL, if they kind of give an inch, 43 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: isn't the worry that regardless of the revenue they bring in? 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: And it's a fortune every single year. If you got 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: fifty plus guys on a team retiring over time and 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: then asking for disability benefits, it's going to drain the 47 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: money quickly. Is that kind of the NFL's position, you believe? Yeah, 48 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: you know, I talked to one of their spokespeople a 49 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: while back about a new case that was filed, and 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: I think they said they pay about three hundred and 51 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: thirty million dollars per year to players and their families 52 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: for these types of benefits. And you know, as we 53 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: see more and more cases that go the way this 54 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: case has gone so far, which is a big victory 55 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: for the player. Yeah, that could get a lot higher 56 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: in the future. Well, Jacqueline, that takes me exactly to 57 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: where I want to go. I mean, three hundred and 58 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: thirty million dollars annually to players and their families. I 59 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: didn't realize the number was that high. How long has 60 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: that been going on and how long is it expected 61 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: to continue going on? I mean, this is billions and 62 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: billions of dollars the NFL is paying out. Now. Don't 63 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: get me wrong, they should be paying it out, I 64 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: believe it. But you know, just how high do you 65 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: think they can go? And how long has that been 66 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: going on? Exactly? Yeah, I mean I think that there's 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: a there's a new case coming up that could really 68 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: give us a lot of answers to those questions. The 69 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: highest level of disability benefits right now they call there 70 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: are a lot of different levels. The highest one, I 71 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: believe is about two hundred and sixty five thousand dollars 72 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: per year, and that's what this player, Michael Cloud, was 73 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: awarded in the lower court and he's defending that on appeal. 74 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: But a couple of weeks ago, there was a class 75 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: action filed by ten players and they can represent many, 76 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: many more, and they're saying that the league is using 77 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: this systematic process to deny benefits. And so if that 78 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: case has some success, it can go a lot higher 79 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: in the future, particularly if you know the years are 80 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: receiving two hundred and sixty five thousand dollars each year 81 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: for each effective player. I want to talk about advocacy 82 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: for fairness in sports. They came and argued before the 83 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: court kind of like a friend of the court in 84 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: their brief, can you can you take us more about 85 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: advocacy for fairness in sports? Yeah, you know, they did 86 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: something really interesting here. They teamed up with a law professor. 87 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: The brief was filed by this group which represents the 88 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: interests of retired and injured athletes, and then they teamed 89 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: up with a law professor that focuses on employee benefits law. 90 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 1: So they were able. The brief was really thorough. It 91 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: was able to make some policy arguments in favor of 92 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: the athletes while also bringing the legal perspective of this 93 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: law professor m talking about how they believe the NFL 94 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: committees have fulfill or have failed to fulfill their duties 95 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: under the federal law that governs employee benefits. So it 96 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: was it was an interesting approach and you know, I 97 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: thought they made some compelling arguments. Jacqueline, what's interesting reading 98 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: your article is and as Michael mentioned, there's out of 99 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: groups getting involved as well. Where the heck is the 100 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: Players Association in this because I didn't really see them mentioned. 101 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: No one accuses them of ever having a backbone. They're 102 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: one of the worst sports unions around. But have they 103 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: spoken out here? Are they in favor? I mean, have 104 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: they backed Michael Cloud? Where do they stand? Yeah? I 105 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: have not heard much from them either. I have seen 106 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: other lawsuits in the past that have named the Players Association, 107 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: those haven't really gone anywhere in terms of judgments against it. Yeah, 108 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: the Players Association does not appear to be involved in 109 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: this appeal right now. So that's a good question. I'd 110 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: like to know myself exactly. You know, I think we 111 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: have to take a step back and for our audience, 112 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: let's be clear. You know what, what what these new 113 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: ten players are accusing the NFL of doing is systematically 114 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: delaying benefits. Now, you know, any of us who have 115 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: gone and had any sort of surgery, any sort of anything, 116 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: we know how difficult it is for insurers to basically 117 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: actually pay out those benefits. You know, my question for 118 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: you is talked to us about these other players? I 119 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: mean Michael Cloud. Look, he is a player. I remember 120 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: michaelud He went to BC, He played for the Chiefs, 121 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: the Pats, the Giants. You know, talks us about these 122 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: other ten players who are accusing the NFL. Do we 123 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: have their names? I mean, what's at stake for them? Yeah, 124 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: let me look at I think they're about head of 125 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: them or Mike McKenzie I believe is one of them, 126 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: Willis McGee. There are a few other names that I knew. 127 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: And that case is really recent. It was just filed 128 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, so we don't even have 129 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: like a start filing in response from the league. So 130 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: that's the one to really keep an eye on. And 131 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: that was filed in Maryland a couple of weeks ago. 132 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure not only the NFL, but many other big 133 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: name leagues are also keeping their eye out on this. 134 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure MLB, the NBA, the NHL. Now you talk 135 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: about some guys that take a punishment even when the 136 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: report comes out that they're injured an upper body injury. 137 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, well, what the hell is that? You know? 138 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: And it goes and it comes out like that, and 139 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: then you find out that they have been dealing with 140 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: concussions for many, many years. Do you get the sense 141 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: that the other big leagues are looking at these cases 142 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: as well? You know, I don't really have that sense. 143 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: There certainly are not nearly as many lawsuits filed involving 144 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: other leagues like the NFL is the one you really 145 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: see a lot of litigation over, so in terms of 146 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: seeing things to play out through the courts, I don't 147 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: think that that's something that's short on the horizon. But 148 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: depending on how this new case goes, this big class action, 149 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: that can change in the future. Jacqueline, this kind of 150 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: seems like the tip of the iceberg. You know, the 151 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: NFL benefits package is very poor compared to other leagues. 152 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: Players I believe that have vested their benefits get five 153 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: years of healthcare after they retire. There's kind of a 154 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: pool of money for each family of I believe what 155 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: three or five hundred thousand dollars that they can exhaust 156 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: money from that said, though, is the tip of the 157 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: iceberg maybe starting to from these cases like Mike Cloud 158 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: in the class action with the ten other football players. 159 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: Is this potentially something from what you understand, that could 160 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: blow up in the face of the NFL to where 161 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: their entire benefits package has to be reassessed, which obviously 162 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: would call a fortune. Yeah. I mean the amount of 163 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: money that could be at stake here really is pretty 164 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: alarming when you look at what these highest levels of 165 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: benefits are and you know, the judge in Michael Cloud's case, 166 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: he was receiving a lower level of benefits and she 167 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: awarded him the full highest level attorney's fees. He's over 168 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: a million dollars in attorney's fees, interest, retroactive payments, payments 169 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: going forward, so his financial award is really substantial. At 170 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: this point in the case. It's you know, there's still 171 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: an appeal, but if something like that happens to more 172 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: and more players, then absolutely they're just going to have 173 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: to look at the balance sheet and see what makes 174 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: sense going forward. Jack, My last question for you really is, 175 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: I mean, do you believe, given you know, your knowledge 176 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: of this case and the NFL and it's it's handling 177 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: of you know, concussion protocol, are you doing enough? I mean, 178 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: we know what happened just this past season, we know 179 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, to atagly available. I mean, we know everything 180 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: that's gone on and and certainly you know the game 181 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 1: has changed in response to it, you know, but do 182 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: you believe the NFL is doing anough? You know, reading 183 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: these these cases, it really makes it hard to think 184 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 1: that they are some of the things the judge talks about. Um, 185 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: you know they they had over five hundred pages of 186 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: medical evidence in Mike Clouds case, and they didn't review it. 187 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: They used a report by a paralegal to make their decision. 188 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: They adopted the reasoning of their advisors. It seems, according 189 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: to her opinion, they were really handing things off to 190 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: outside advisors and not taking the time to do it themselves. 191 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: So who's certainly with this ruling on the books, they're 192 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: going to have to examine their processes. But yeah, if 193 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: you if you follow what said in this case, it 194 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: really seems like there's a lot of room for improvement 195 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: our own. Bloomberg's Jacqueline Willie, you've been so kind to 196 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: take some time out and talk with us. Oh. In 197 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: my final question, because you know you're officially in the 198 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: club now, Bloomberg Business of Sports, I need to know 199 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: your favorite NFL team on the clock. Go it's the 200 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: Chiefs from Kansas City. Hunter, she's from there. Give her 201 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: a break, not an I give. I give you credit 202 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: because my wife loves Andy Reid as well, so you 203 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: know I give it here. Jacqueline probably have to lift 204 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: through the Todd Hailey years, so I do get for 205 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: a benefit the doubt there see I see, I'm a 206 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: Lions fan. In case you didn't know, Jacqueline, sorry to 207 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: hear that you know. And that was Dan Schwartzman's last host. Yes, 208 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: I'm a jetsman. I can't talk. Just all you and 209 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: Damien are together in this man Aesthetic Losers, Jacqueline. As 210 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: you can see, we love to have a lot of 211 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: fun here. Thank you so much for joining us on 212 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business of Sports. Thank you. This has been 213 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast. We explore some of 214 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: the big money issues in the world of sports on 215 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: Michael Bar. You can follow me on Twitter at Big 216 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 1: Bar Sports. Dan. Where can they follow you on Twitter 217 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: at Dan Schwartzman. Very easy, and they can follow me 218 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter because I'm more important than Dan. Damien sass 219 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: at dur You can catch these podcast everyone day, Wednesday 220 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: and Thursday. By the way, you can download this show 221 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.