Speaker 1: If you really want our relationship to be nourishing and
Speaker 1: happy and compassionate, you've got to really work on letting
Speaker 1: go of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments,
Speaker 1: you're increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential
Speaker 1: for freedom.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3: What if the biggest thing getting in the way of
Speaker 3: love is the way we hold on to it. That
Speaker 3: was one of the biggest insights I took from this
Speaker 3: conversation with Diego Perez, better known as Young Pueblo he
Speaker 3: said something that really stuck with me. Attachment is just
Speaker 3: a deep form of inflexibility. It can look like love,
Speaker 3: but it's often about control. It reminded me of something
Speaker 3: my partner Ginny has said, which is that when we
Speaker 3: fixate on one specific thing, like a cupcake, nothing else
Speaker 3: will satisfy us. But when we step back and recognize
Speaker 3: what we actually need underneath it, so many possibilities open up.
Speaker 3: That's flexibility. And in this episode, Diego shares how meditation
Speaker 3: reshaped his relationships, why growth, kindness, and compassions are green
Speaker 3: flags and relationships, and how we can advocate for our
Speaker 3: needs without clinging too tightly to our stories. This was
Speaker 3: such a warm and insightful conversation and I know you'll
Speaker 3: take something valuable from it. I'm Eric Zimmer and this
Speaker 3: is the one you feed. Hi, Diego, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Hey Eric, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you back on. This
Speaker 3: time around, we're going to be discussing your book, How
Speaker 3: to Love Better, the Path to Deeper connection through growth,
Speaker 3: Kindness and compassion, and so we'll get to that in
Speaker 3: a minute, but let's start, like we always do, with
Speaker 3: a parable in the parable. There's a grandparent who's talking
Speaker 3: with their grandchild and they say, in life, there's two
Speaker 3: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. What
Speaker 3: is a good wolf which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 3: bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which
Speaker 3: represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the
Speaker 3: grandchild stops think about it for a second. They look
Speaker 3: up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins?
Speaker 3: And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 3: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 3: means to you in your life and in the work.
Speaker 4: That you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that parable is really so powerful and
Speaker 1: it's nice, you know, hearing it once again and reflecting
Speaker 1: on it, And immediately it made me think back to
Speaker 1: how the wolf that I was afraid of was fear itself,
Speaker 1: like the fear to feel my own emotions. And I
Speaker 1: think what it really means is like embracing the good wolf,
Speaker 1: embracing like the good qualities of life is really just
Speaker 1: having the resilience to feel, just the resilience to feel
Speaker 1: the simplicity of that, and how that's turned my life
Speaker 1: in a much better direction.
Speaker 3: The thing that comes through in this book very clear
Speaker 3: is your meditation practice. It's really emphasized. I think you
Speaker 3: say in the book you've been at it for about
Speaker 3: twelve years and that you have something like twelve thousand
Speaker 3: hours of practice, which that's a lot of diligence, right.
Speaker 3: I assume some of that gets stacked up in you know,
Speaker 3: longer silent retreat But that's a very dedicated and focused practice.
Speaker 3: As someone who's been a long time meditator myself, I
Speaker 3: do find that the motivation wanes from time to time
Speaker 3: for you. How does it stay high enough to keep
Speaker 3: that level of continuous practice up.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm really motivated by the results. Honestly, I
Speaker 1: think it's the best investment I've ever made. It's, you know,
Speaker 1: better than investing in the S and P.
Speaker 4: Five hundred.
Speaker 1: It's just like such a strong result oriented practice where
Speaker 1: I see how when I go to retreats, I started
Speaker 1: making better decisions when I was back home, and then
Speaker 1: when I started meditating daily, my capacity and my creativity
Speaker 1: started expanding. And not only that on the individual level,
Speaker 1: but on the interpersonal level, like all my relationships started deepening.
Speaker 1: So there are definitely times where you know, it's more
Speaker 1: difficult than others to sit my you know, two hours
Speaker 1: a day, but I always get it done because I
Speaker 1: know that I'm just better off for it. And it's
Speaker 1: almost like you know, feeding myself daily, Like I have
Speaker 1: to feed myself, bathe myself, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: I also have to tend to my mind. So it
Speaker 1: feels pretty essential.
Speaker 3: Have you had any time in there where you have
Speaker 3: slipped a little bit and done less of it and
Speaker 3: then been like, oh boy, I can really tell the difference,
Speaker 3: or are you still just sort of running off of
Speaker 3: a I know this is really good for me, keep
Speaker 3: doing it kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, it would take a lot to make me
Speaker 1: not do it, but I haven't. I've been doing it
Speaker 1: now for like, I started meditating in twenty twelve, and
Speaker 1: I started going to retreats, but then I started meditating
Speaker 1: daily in the beginning of twenty fifteen, and it's been
Speaker 1: ongoing now for what is that, like almost ten years
Speaker 1: in the summer, yam, so, yeah, I mean I've been
Speaker 1: I think it was just like, you know, i'd have
Speaker 1: to be like really sick or something like that, or
Speaker 1: in a coma or or you know, if I had
Speaker 1: a child and they like needed me twenty four to
Speaker 1: seven or something like that. But because right now I
Speaker 1: have that luxury of you know, not having kids and
Speaker 1: being healthy, it gets the priority it needs.
Speaker 4: Got it all?
Speaker 3: Right, Let's move into the book itself about how to
Speaker 3: Love Better. We're going to explore some of the big
Speaker 3: ideas in the book, but I want to start with
Speaker 3: you talk about something called green flags in relationships, or
Speaker 3: we've heard the term red flag in relationship, but you
Speaker 3: know three green flags that you talk about our growth, kindness,
Speaker 3: and compassion, And I'm wondering if you could share a
Speaker 3: little bit about why you chose those and why they're
Speaker 3: important for relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, they felt really critical, especially
Speaker 1: the you know, the growth one where you get into
Speaker 1: a relationship and as soon as you're in there, you
Speaker 1: start seeing very clearly what you're good at and what
Speaker 1: you're not good at. You know that you can see
Speaker 1: if you lack the skill of listening well, or if
Speaker 1: you lack patience and whatnot. And I think embracing your
Speaker 1: own growth and understanding that it's really a lifelong journey,
Speaker 1: whether you're in partnership or not, that that's going to
Speaker 1: help you just show up as the best version of yourself.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of times people want to
Speaker 1: be in a relationship with someone who has their stuff
Speaker 1: figured out. But the reality is that, like everyone comes
Speaker 1: into a relationship quite imperfect, and instead of wanting someone
Speaker 1: to like, you know, have all the emotional skill set
Speaker 1: and all of that figured out, instead, what you're really
Speaker 1: looking for is that they embrace growth that they see
Speaker 1: and it can hold themselves accountable and then can step
Speaker 1: up and repair what they need to repair. The other element,
Speaker 1: you know, one of kindness is that when you're in
Speaker 1: proximity to someone, whomever you're in proximity to, whether it's
Speaker 1: a roommate, whether it's a family member, whether it's someone
Speaker 1: you're you know in an intimate relationship with the person
Speaker 1: that you're closest to is going to see the best
Speaker 1: of you and the worst of you. So being intentional
Speaker 1: about having the vulnerability to let someone see you in
Speaker 1: your down moments, but also still you know, doing your
Speaker 1: best to be sweet with them, to give them your kindness,
Speaker 1: to treat them gently, because that kindness that you can
Speaker 1: receive from another person, it helps you move through the
Speaker 1: ups and downs of life. And then the last element
Speaker 1: of compassion. I'm speaking about a very specific form of
Speaker 1: compassion where you are doing your best to step outside
Speaker 1: of your perspective to see the perspective of another person,
Speaker 1: because this is the fundamental skill set that you need
Speaker 1: to be able to solve arguments when they arise.
Speaker 3: I was going to ask about the difference between compassion
Speaker 3: and kindness. So in this case, kindness is sort of
Speaker 3: all the gestures and the general orientation towards a person
Speaker 3: in your general interactions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the care, the gentleness, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And compassion is the ability to say, hang on, I
Speaker 3: don't necessarily agree with what they're saying, but I'm going
Speaker 3: to pause, and I'm going to perhaps elevate myself a
Speaker 3: little bit and try and see their side of it
Speaker 3: before I have a reaction.
Speaker 1: Oh exactly. You know, it's an element of humility where
Speaker 1: you understand that, Okay, I may be having my own
Speaker 1: set of experiences, but my perception is not perfect. I
Speaker 1: don't know exactly what's going on. I may know for myself,
Speaker 1: but let me take a moment to really listen to
Speaker 1: my partner and hear how things are moving for them.
Speaker 3: Humility is a word that you use a lot in
Speaker 3: this book, and it is not a word that shows
Speaker 3: up a lot of places very often. Now, I got
Speaker 3: sober in a twelve step program, and you know, one
Speaker 3: of the steps has the word humility or humble in it.
Speaker 3: And the AA Big book talks about humility a fair amount,
Speaker 3: but I don't see it very often. Why is that
Speaker 3: a word that resonates with you? And maybe before you
Speaker 3: tell us why it resonates with you, tell us what
Speaker 3: it means to you.
Speaker 4: You know, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you're like catching on that too, because
Speaker 1: I find that it's not a very popular word. Like
Speaker 1: if you try to write a post and you're sort
Speaker 1: of building that post around the word humility, like.
Speaker 3: It is just gonna flow even for your audience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: And that's why, like you know, a lot of the
Speaker 1: stuff that you'll see on my Instagram account, it's to
Speaker 1: peauk your interests and to hopefully so that you can
Speaker 1: develop a sense of trust, so that you then give
Speaker 1: me your patience to then hear about subjects like humility
Speaker 1: and how important they are. I mean, to me, humility
Speaker 1: is the simple art of fully understanding that I don't
Speaker 1: know everything and I have a lot to learn and
Speaker 1: that my perspectives and whatnot with my views, they're not complete,
Speaker 1: they're not perfect, and that it's worth learning and communicating
Speaker 1: with others to be able to expand what I know.
Speaker 3: That's a great definition.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, not only is that like critical in
Speaker 1: your own growth journey, but in your relationship coming into it.
Speaker 1: Like I think about it as if there's another green flag.
Speaker 1: It's when you are really getting to know somebody who
Speaker 1: see that you know, they don't act like they know
Speaker 1: everything that they ask questions that they're like furious about,
Speaker 1: you know, tell me more, Like, tell me more is
Speaker 1: one of my favorite sentences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the definition that I had heard for a while
Speaker 3: is slightly different. I think it's just a slightly different
Speaker 3: orientation of the same idea, which is that it's about
Speaker 3: having a very accurate assessment of your good and bad qualities.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: It's not about knowing all about what's bad about you,
Speaker 3: It's not about denying what's good about you. It's about
Speaker 3: having a relatively clear picture of here's the type of
Speaker 3: person I am. But I really love that idea of
Speaker 3: just recognizing you don't know everything and being open like
Speaker 3: that is such an important skill and talk about like
Speaker 3: green flags. It is one of the things that attracts
Speaker 3: me to other people in any way, shape or form,
Speaker 3: and repels me from people who think they know everything.
Speaker 3: Like I'm allergic to it a little bit, you know,
Speaker 3: like almost to the point that I need to like
Speaker 3: get over it a little bit. But it's one of
Speaker 3: my least favorite character traits.
Speaker 1: I'm with you, and I think when I encounter people
Speaker 1: who have that humility to learn more from others, to me,
Speaker 1: it's an immediate sign of intelligence and that they have
Speaker 1: the sort of like mental capacity and framework for higher
Speaker 1: intelligence to be able to like keep building on complexity
Speaker 1: because any views that any human is going to develop,
Speaker 1: they're just going to be very tilted, tainted, imperfect, like
Speaker 1: we can only see so far.
Speaker 4: That's why we need each other.
Speaker 3: So let's move into one of the first key ideas
Speaker 3: in the book to me, which is that our own
Speaker 3: personal growth is really foundational to a good relationship.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: To me, it was quite shocking that I went into
Speaker 1: meditating for my own personal development, for my own healing,
Speaker 1: and I started receiving the results of that pretty quickly.
Speaker 1: I started seeing that my mind felt lighter. Self awareness
Speaker 1: started developing. But it was a surprise, a good surprise
Speaker 1: to see that it was immediately affecting my relationships in
Speaker 1: a very positive way. You know, started deepening my relationship
Speaker 1: with my parents, my relationship with my wife who was
Speaker 1: then my girlfriend, started getting deeper, even relationships with friends.
Speaker 1: And it started really dawning on me how my relationship
Speaker 1: was just showing me so much of where I needed
Speaker 1: to grow. And if I refused to grow in these
Speaker 1: areas like listening better, having more patience, pausing, slowing down
Speaker 1: my reactions to just you know, give myself time to think.
Speaker 1: If I didn't accept that challenge to grow, then the
Speaker 1: relationship was just going to keep staying hard and probably
Speaker 1: getting harder. So you know, in my mind, there's no
Speaker 1: other alternative than to understand, like whether you meditate or not. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of room for growth in
Speaker 1: a relationship for every individual.
Speaker 3: Well, you could just focus all your energy on getting
Speaker 3: the other person to grow and change.
Speaker 4: Does that work?
Speaker 3: And I know from experience, yeah, it's often the standard approach.
Speaker 1: The first six years of my relationship with my wife,
Speaker 1: it was just like a giant blame game.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: It was just like, how can I figure out, how
Speaker 1: can I make this tension in my mind your fault?
Speaker 4: And we never won. Neither of us won.
Speaker 3: No, It's funny to me and I laugh from having
Speaker 3: been in this exact situation at times where I'm sitting
Speaker 3: there learning something new about growth and thinking in my mind, like,
Speaker 3: you know, who really needs to hear this?
Speaker 4: Oh? I know?
Speaker 1: And the answer is to me. It's like it's you,
Speaker 1: the person who's looking in the mirror.
Speaker 3: You make an interesting point though, about how growth from
Speaker 3: both people is sort of important, and I've seen this
Speaker 3: happen a lot. My peers are older than yours, but
Speaker 3: I've seen this happen a lot with people, you know,
Speaker 3: somewhere near my age. The kids are finally up and
Speaker 3: out of the house, and one of the partners just
Speaker 3: really embarks on like growth and change and wanting to
Speaker 3: be a different person in a lot of ways, and
Speaker 3: the other person just says, think, I'm just going to
Speaker 3: stay right here. Yeah, And that becomes really problematic and
Speaker 3: really painful for everybody involved, because on one hand, you
Speaker 3: can't fault the person who's like, but we've been in
Speaker 3: this marriage all these years, and you were this way
Speaker 3: and now you're different, and you're expecting me to come
Speaker 3: along like all of a sudden, And yet you can't
Speaker 3: fault somebody either for being like I want to change,
Speaker 3: I want to grow and and I think we can
Speaker 3: talk about this a little bit more later in the conversation,
Speaker 3: but I think some of figuring out is this workable?
Speaker 3: Am I okay with this? In those situations where it's
Speaker 3: a little more nebulous, right, like nobody's done anything wrong.
Speaker 3: Most people in the really relationship or kind and good people,
Speaker 3: you know, and figuring that out is really difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think, you know, it's funny because that
Speaker 1: even comes back to humility in a certain degree, where
Speaker 1: you have to learn to be okay with people growing
Speaker 1: in their own way and also growing at their own speed,
Speaker 1: Like we're not going to grow. This is like we
Speaker 1: have such different conditioning. You know, some people have experience
Speaker 1: immense amounts of traumas others less so, and so that means, like,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're trying to grow, like developing some
Speaker 1: qualities might be super super difficult, like someone developing patients
Speaker 1: when all they've known for years is survival and they're
Speaker 1: just like you know, trying to dodge things so that
Speaker 1: they can not be hurt. So I think understanding that
Speaker 1: one we don't have to change the same way, we
Speaker 1: don't have to change the same speed, and that growth
Speaker 1: for you may look super different for me. Like if
Speaker 1: someone is really adamant about I don't know, like meditating
Speaker 1: or going to therapy or just doing whatever it is,
Speaker 1: and maybe another person just needs to accept they just
Speaker 1: need to accept themselves as they are, and that can
Speaker 1: be one of the biggest growth moments for them in
Speaker 1: their life because they've been striving, striving, striving, and you know,
Speaker 1: trying to be a very productive member of society or whatnot,
Speaker 1: and to just be able to accept yourself as you
Speaker 1: are could open up a world of peace inside of you.
Speaker 1: And I've seen it work in a lot of different ways,
Speaker 1: you know, with couples of all ages, where one person
Speaker 1: is really interested and takes care of themselves by hiking
Speaker 1: and being in nature doing art. Other people who really
Speaker 1: enjoy therapy, really enjoy meditating. I think people just have
Speaker 1: different tools that connect with them.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: One of the things I've realized as my partner and
Speaker 3: I have been together longer and I think we're in
Speaker 3: essentially our tenth year is in the beginning. In a
Speaker 3: lot of relationships, I think there's a certain amount of
Speaker 3: you sort of move towards each other because you're trying
Speaker 3: to connect, and then over time if things are good.
Speaker 3: This is another theme we're going to get to, right,
Speaker 3: this ability to sort of have freedom to grow and
Speaker 3: change and move in a relationship. And so with my
Speaker 3: partner and I, Ginny, I've noticed that we have grown
Speaker 3: a part in some areas. And I don't mean a
Speaker 3: part as a couple. I mean like, I like this
Speaker 3: and she likes that. In the beginning, we might have
Speaker 3: both been a little bit more like meeting on that.
Speaker 3: And now there's a little bit more like just letting
Speaker 3: the other person be like, oh, I like this, and
Speaker 3: me making sure that I like this only means I
Speaker 3: like this, not you should like this, right right, Like
Speaker 3: thinking that the choices that I make are somehow more
Speaker 3: conducive to a good life or whatever, and realizing like
Speaker 3: that's preposter Like, no, it's not. It's really preference and
Speaker 3: who we are as people, and allowing that to sort
Speaker 3: of be That's something I continue to learn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Eric, Is that really
Speaker 1: to me, it's a sign of very healthy love because
Speaker 1: from my perspective, you're not only getting the safety of commitment,
Speaker 1: right clear commitment towards each other, but because that is
Speaker 1: so firm and established, you have the freedom to explore,
Speaker 1: to explore your interests, to just go and you know,
Speaker 1: see what's out there in the world, and still be
Speaker 1: able to come back home and have that nourishment of
Speaker 1: your partnership there. And I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: get scared by the word freedom because you immediately think, oh,
Speaker 1: they're going to start sleeping with other people and dating
Speaker 1: other people. But that's not what we're talking about. We're
Speaker 1: talking about the freedom to like let your preferences change,
Speaker 1: to let like even something as simple as like what
Speaker 1: you like to watch on TV and for it to
Speaker 1: like become something different, or what you like to read,
Speaker 1: for it to you know, evolve and change over time,
Speaker 1: and even the way that you like to show up
Speaker 1: for people. And I think that's one of the beauties
Speaker 1: is like, if you're really feeling nourished by your relationship,
Speaker 1: you will have that element of freedom to be able
Speaker 1: to continue evolving. And just because you don't have the
Speaker 1: same tastes doesn't mean you're going to stop loving each other.
Speaker 1: I think it was one of the hardest journeys something
Speaker 1: as simple because in our relationship, you know, Sarah and I,
Speaker 1: we like had this long series of years where we
Speaker 1: really enjoyed moving lockstep with each other, just like we're
Speaker 1: eating the same foods, doing the same exercises, like you know,
Speaker 1: just like existing as similarly as possible. And that felt
Speaker 1: right for the time. But then we started learning that, oh,
Speaker 1: actually the diet that she needs needs to be drastically
Speaker 1: different from may own, and the exercise that she needs
Speaker 1: is also not the same. And now, like you know,
Speaker 1: we have learned the peculiarities that we need for the
Speaker 1: both of us to optimize and feel like our best
Speaker 1: version of ourselves, and it's not the same. And I think,
Speaker 1: honestly it's it was hard to accept in the beginning,
Speaker 1: but then I realized, oh, this is actually like us
Speaker 1: actively caring for each other is giving each other that freedom.
Speaker 3: So let's go back to that a little bit. We've
Speaker 3: kind of hit on a few of the different points,
Speaker 3: but I want to talk about sort of between freedom
Speaker 3: and connection. So you know, you differentiate between love and
Speaker 3: what we would call attachment based behaviors. So first let's
Speaker 3: lay out kind of what we mean by that, because
Speaker 3: I don't think we can have the right balance between
Speaker 3: freedom and connection if attachment is the thing that's running the.
Speaker 1: Show totally, totally, and just to clarify to whomever's listening to,
Speaker 1: we're talking about not the Western psychology style of attachment
Speaker 1: that is quite popular nowadays, but we're talking about the
Speaker 1: old school type of attachment that the Buddha put forward,
Speaker 1: you know, is one of the causes of misery. And
Speaker 1: by attachment in the book, I'm talking about the craving
Speaker 1: for things to exist in a very particular way, you know,
Speaker 1: and that could mean like, you know, having your partner
Speaker 1: act in very specific ways, or having you know, all
Speaker 1: the things that you love always be there and you
Speaker 1: being you know, clinging for all the things that you
Speaker 1: really enjoy to always exist. The rigidity of attachment. It'll
Speaker 1: first manifest in your mind as a certain mental image
Speaker 1: you know, this is what I want to happen. But
Speaker 1: the way it manifests through your actions is that it
Speaker 1: emerges as control. You know, you're sort of like just
Speaker 1: really stiff about how you want things to exist. If
Speaker 1: you really want a relationship to be nourishing and happy
Speaker 1: and compassionate, You've got to really work on letting go
Speaker 1: of your attachments, because when you lessen the attachments, you're
Speaker 1: increasing not only your freedom, but your partner's potential for freedom.
Speaker 3: Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask
Speaker 3: you something. What's one thing that has been holding you
Speaker 3: back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to
Speaker 3: push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way.
Speaker 3: You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major
Speaker 3: saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt,
Speaker 3: emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's
Speaker 3: the good news. You can outsmart them. And I've put
Speaker 3: together a free guide to help you spot these hidden
Speaker 3: obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can
Speaker 3: use to regain control. Download the free guide now at
Speaker 3: oneufeed dot net slash ebook and take the first step
Speaker 3: towards getting back on track. I want to go back
Speaker 3: to what you said there about we're talking about attachment
Speaker 3: in a classic Buddhist sense, often translated as craving is
Speaker 3: another word for it, And then saying, you know, we're
Speaker 3: not talking about Western attachment, but in a sense we are.
Speaker 3: I think in that if we talk about attachment styles,
Speaker 3: there's one style that I never get my terms right,
Speaker 3: but it's basically securely attached. That's the good one. And
Speaker 3: then there's I think avoidant and anxious attachment, and then
Speaker 3: my favorite, which is you do both you're completely confused,
Speaker 3: which is me like I just okay, that didn't quite work.
Speaker 3: I'll try the other one. Wait, that's not working. I'll
Speaker 3: try it like bounce back and forth like a I
Speaker 3: think they call it like, it's not a term confused.
Speaker 3: It's even better than that, because I do think that
Speaker 3: those styles that we're describing are what happens when we
Speaker 3: don't have the secure attachment. And it's one thing to say,
Speaker 3: like I want to give my partner all the freedom
Speaker 3: in the world, right, But like you said, that's really
Speaker 3: hard to do if you don't have some sort of
Speaker 3: secure attachment. But then ironically, it's very hard to have
Speaker 3: a true secure attachment when you're interested in controlling you're
Speaker 3: a partner, right, it can be this difficult gain because
Speaker 3: you're wanting to control your partner, because you're afraid they're
Speaker 3: going to move in a direction you don't want, and
Speaker 3: that very active then controlling is causing them not to
Speaker 3: be securely attached to you.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I think those frameworks are really
Speaker 1: helpful to people. But I'm one who you know, I
Speaker 1: honestly have an aversion to all labels, Like I feel
Speaker 1: like human beings they exist on such a wide spectrum
Speaker 1: that like one day I have secure attachments, another deck
Speaker 1: and I have anxious attachments, and it's just like you're
Speaker 1: just going to be changing all the time. So to me,
Speaker 1: it's like, how can I simplify my approach And instead
Speaker 1: of focusing on attachments and expectations, why not just fully
Speaker 1: vocalize how I like my happiness to be and see
Speaker 1: where we can make commitments to each other, you know,
Speaker 1: like if I can tell my wife, this is how
Speaker 1: like my happiness to be supported, and she says, oh,
Speaker 1: I can do X, Y and Z for you, Like
Speaker 1: this feels good to me. This is a way that
Speaker 1: I can try to show up for you. And from
Speaker 1: commitments can come a level of security that has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with you know, the coercion that sometimes happens
Speaker 1: from expectations or from attachments where it's like you're demanding
Speaker 1: someone to really exist in a particular way for you,
Speaker 1: and instead you're just saying, like, these are my needs,
Speaker 1: and this is how they might relate to, like my
Speaker 1: past traumas or how I've experienced life. And you know
Speaker 1: from how these breakups and you know these things that
Speaker 1: have happened that have really affected the way I show
Speaker 1: up now and how I'm currently working on them. But
Speaker 1: having things be clear and well informed between the two
Speaker 1: of you just really sets you up for success, because
Speaker 1: you know expectations and attachments, like you don't want things
Speaker 1: to be a mystery. You don't want to set up
Speaker 1: traps for your partner, you want clarity for them.
Speaker 3: Yep, I have a few thoughts there. I also am
Speaker 3: not a huge fan of labels. I think they serve
Speaker 3: a purpose for a certain period of time. I think
Speaker 3: they help us see patterns that we get stuck into
Speaker 3: where it's like, yes, okay, you know what, Like I
Speaker 3: don't want to say I am that, but you know what,
Speaker 3: I keep doing that, So there's a pattern there that's
Speaker 3: worth seeing. But they're only useful I think until they
Speaker 3: start limiting you. The question here around attachment. Is this
Speaker 3: all sounds good in the I tell my partner the
Speaker 3: way I would like them to support my happiness and
Speaker 3: they say yes, and then they support my happiness in
Speaker 3: that way, and everything's great, except when it doesn't quite
Speaker 3: work that way, meaning like these sort of nuanced things
Speaker 3: you get into in relationship, And I'm just going to
Speaker 3: pull out two cliches, right. One is one partner wants
Speaker 3: more sexual attachment than the other, more sexual contact than
Speaker 3: the other, like it's a connection point, right. The other
Speaker 3: would be somebody who says, like I'd like my partner
Speaker 3: to be more emotionally expressive right than they are, and
Speaker 3: those things are there's often still a tension there, and
Speaker 3: I think it gets tricky, at least I have found
Speaker 3: it tricky in my life to see when am I
Speaker 3: calmly advocating and stating what I would like in a relationship?
Speaker 3: When am I having an expectation and attachment or craving
Speaker 3: to things being a certain way? And it gets in
Speaker 3: that nuanced area where like you know, again, there's the
Speaker 3: perfect world where you know, we say what we want,
Speaker 3: we get it all the time. There's the other world
Speaker 3: where we say what we want we never get it.
Speaker 3: Those are pretty easy, right, But most of life happens
Speaker 3: in between those in relationships. So I'm curious how you
Speaker 3: think about particularly that, Like I'm stating what I want
Speaker 3: and my partner isn't quite able to meet me there.
Speaker 3: It seems to keep up for me. How do I
Speaker 3: let that go? I just think that's something I've been
Speaker 3: in and I've seen others in That just gets trickier.
Speaker 1: Oh, totally, totally, and it gets very nuanced, and it's
Speaker 1: very situational to like the intrinsic qualities of your relationship,
Speaker 1: especially when you're hearing different people's advice, Like does it
Speaker 1: really match to your situation in the current conditions. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of times like one from my experience,
Speaker 1: like the arguments have decreased in terms of their level
Speaker 1: of tension because we're less attached, but often the arguments
Speaker 1: are the same. It's like we're still, like, you know,
Speaker 1: arguing about similar things over and over, and it's because
Speaker 1: we have deeply ingrained patterns, you know, like I'm more
Speaker 1: of a people person, Sarah's more reserved, Like I'm more forward.
Speaker 1: She's you know, a little less forward, and it's just
Speaker 1: like more calmly exists within herself, and there are these
Speaker 1: aspects and you know, character types that we have that
Speaker 1: we have to kind of work with. And what you
Speaker 1: end up finding is that you want to have a
Speaker 1: healthy balance of giving and receiving. And I think that's
Speaker 1: where like a lot of the tension gets resolved, where
Speaker 1: like if you feel like you're doing your part to
Speaker 1: care for your partner and you're doing your best to
Speaker 1: meet their needs and meet the way that they like
Speaker 1: to be supported. That doesn't mean you're going to get
Speaker 1: one hundred percent all the time, right, That just means
Speaker 1: that you're trying and you have some clarity around it.
Speaker 1: But then there are going to be some months that
Speaker 1: are way harder than others and you're not going to
Speaker 1: be able to show up as well. But I think
Speaker 1: having the sense of like, one, you're not always going
Speaker 1: to get what you want, like you're not like that's
Speaker 1: not what a relationship is means like you're joining this
Speaker 1: journey and this like in some ways it's a joyful challenge.
Speaker 1: They add so much beauty and harmony to your life
Speaker 1: and elevate your life, but it's also it's going to
Speaker 1: have its own ups and downs, and you're just never
Speaker 1: expecting your partner to be perfect. You're just expecting them
Speaker 1: to show up for you and have a degree of
Speaker 1: accountability when they make mistakes, you know, basically the simple
Speaker 1: accountability of apologizing and trying to change the behavior when
Speaker 1: something does go wrong. But I really think, like you know,
Speaker 1: you just can't expect things to always go your way,
Speaker 1: and if you do, then there's a problem there. There's
Speaker 1: something that you need to work on within yourself because
Speaker 1: your partner is not like they're a human being who
Speaker 1: also you know, is going to ebb and flow in
Speaker 1: their energy and they're not always going to be able
Speaker 1: to give at the same rate. So we need to
Speaker 1: be mindful of that, you know, is their balance with
Speaker 1: our giving and receiving.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I have been in some distinctly unjoyful challenges also
Speaker 3: in the past. My current one is a joyful challenge.
Speaker 3: I've been in the unjoyful challenge. There's something you say, though,
Speaker 3: that I think that gets to the heart of this
Speaker 3: a little bit, and it is that you say attachment
Speaker 3: is a deep form of inflexibility. Yeah, And I really
Speaker 3: like that idea because I think when we're looking at
Speaker 3: a relationship as by talking about what we did earlier, right,
Speaker 3: sort of going up a level and looking at the
Speaker 3: thing as a whole. There are going to be places
Speaker 3: where perhaps I would like to be supported in that
Speaker 3: way there, but I'm not as much as I would.
Speaker 3: But you know these three other areas, boy, I'm really
Speaker 3: deeply supported over there. And when we become inflexible, which
Speaker 3: is like, no, it's got to be that way and
Speaker 3: this way. And you talk in the book about how
Speaker 3: it's good to recognize that, like you ask your partner
Speaker 3: how they want to be cared for, is good and
Speaker 3: I think that's important, and we'll talk about that. There's
Speaker 3: also something to be said to being flexible enough in
Speaker 3: certain cases that you let your partner care for you
Speaker 3: in the way that they like, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: like the way they naturally show care and support. But
Speaker 3: I just love that idea. I love the idea of
Speaker 3: flexibility in general, and I love the idea of thinking
Speaker 3: of attachment as deep inflexibility.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this all really stems from, you know, understanding how
Speaker 1: essential this law of impermanences to the entirety of the universe,
Speaker 1: Like literally, you know, at the atomic level, the biological level,
Speaker 1: the cosmological level, like everything is always changing. So what
Speaker 1: that's taught me is that I need to work with
Speaker 1: the universe and not against it. If everything is changing
Speaker 1: and flowing forward, what does that tell me? It means
Speaker 1: I need to embrace change. When change comes and I
Speaker 1: can't do anything about it, and my actions can't, you know,
Speaker 1: resolve things or change things in the way that I
Speaker 1: would prefer, then I have no other opportunity but to accept. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it feels like this, you know, inflexibility. You're basically
Speaker 1: trying to move against the river of the universe where
Speaker 1: it's just flowing and changing and moving forward. So work
Speaker 1: with the universe, not against it.
Speaker 3: You may know this being a poet in addition to
Speaker 3: the other things that you do. But I just had
Speaker 3: a conversation before this one with a mathematician and we
Speaker 3: were talking about calculus, and he then referenced the poet
Speaker 3: Adrian Rich, which I did not see coming out of
Speaker 3: a calculus conversation, but he talks about her poem which
Speaker 3: the famous line in it is the moment of Change
Speaker 3: is the only poem which just made me. As you
Speaker 3: were talking about sort of that dynamic nature of everything,
Speaker 3: I just think that's such a beautiful line.
Speaker 4: It's so beautiful. I haven't heard that one.
Speaker 1: It's literally like, when I think about what I'm learning
Speaker 1: in this lifetime, it's just that it's like I'm just
Speaker 1: learning to embrace change.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know what the poem is called, but
Speaker 3: the Moment of Change is the only poem I would
Speaker 3: go look at it because it unfolds on a bunch
Speaker 3: of really sort of to me mind blowing levels about
Speaker 3: how she just keeps going like one level deeper, you know,
Speaker 3: into like this is the poem, but wait, no, that's
Speaker 3: the poem. No, not that you know. And it's sort
Speaker 3: of like when you start looking at like I know,
Speaker 3: you think about this stuff a lot, like the nature
Speaker 3: of self, you just keep going down another level and
Speaker 3: the bottom keeps falling. Yeah, and this poem kind of
Speaker 3: does that. So it was kind of amazing.
Speaker 1: I just wrote down the line, I'm gonna look it
Speaker 1: up after we finish our chat.
Speaker 3: Not being flexible and insisting on things being our way,
Speaker 3: that's a problem. I also know that I'm guilty of
Speaker 3: the other side of it, which is that I go, ah,
Speaker 3: you know what, I guess I'm not going to get
Speaker 3: that from them, And so I'm not going to say
Speaker 3: anything again. Why bring it up again? You know, I
Speaker 3: end up sort of foe accepting. Yeah, I end up
Speaker 3: sort of accepting on the outside, and yet inside there's
Speaker 3: still a little bit of churning going on. And I
Speaker 3: think I know for myself how to figure that out.
Speaker 3: But how do you think about that?
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point, And it's such a
Speaker 1: like an everyday point where you know, you may have
Speaker 1: requests of your partner, but they're not able to meet them,
Speaker 1: and you feel that sense of, you know, a small
Speaker 1: bit of agitation that you're not getting what you want.
Speaker 1: And I think what really helps is having your sort
Speaker 1: of own internal measuring system of like, let's say you've
Speaker 1: been traveling too much and let my wife know that
Speaker 1: my parents have been going through a hard time. It's
Speaker 1: really important to me to go visit my parents and
Speaker 1: would be more than happy if you come with me,
Speaker 1: But you don't have to. But you know, as long
Speaker 1: as i'm I have your support to like go and
Speaker 1: be with them and just letting let you know. And
Speaker 1: that's one example, just like but you're letting an individual
Speaker 1: know when something is really important and when you're really
Speaker 1: asking them for their support because a lot of times
Speaker 1: like do I really need to argue about this? Like
Speaker 1: do I really need to fight about this? Like is
Speaker 1: this this important to me?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Usually no, Like usually I can just let it go.
Speaker 1: But then there are other times where like something feels
Speaker 1: really critical and you have to just express it, vocalize,
Speaker 1: like communicate about it so that you're on the same page.
Speaker 3: I think what I figured out for myself is if
Speaker 3: I'm in a position where I'm like, Okay, I think
Speaker 3: I need to go accept this, and I go do
Speaker 3: the work of trying to accept it, and yet I can't.
Speaker 3: I don't like it keeps sort of churning inside me. Okay,
Speaker 3: that's a sign that it may not be an easy conversation.
Speaker 3: But we're gonna have to find a way to be
Speaker 3: able to talk about this, because as much as I
Speaker 3: want to just let this go, I don't seem to
Speaker 3: be completely able to. And sometimes that's our own work
Speaker 3: to do. But there are other times where I think
Speaker 3: it's not our work, where I think we can go
Speaker 3: you know what, for whatever reason for my makeup, this
Speaker 3: thing is genuinely really kind of a big deal. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And again for me, that usually comes after I will
Speaker 3: try to accept too hard, Like I mean, that's my nature,
Speaker 3: Like I'm going to go off and try and figure
Speaker 3: this out myself because I don't want to put my
Speaker 3: stuff on.
Speaker 4: Anybody else exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a big value of mine. But eventually I
Speaker 3: might go, well, you know what, like I'm in relationship,
Speaker 3: Like that's part of me in relationship totally.
Speaker 1: And you know what's interesting building off of what you're saying,
Speaker 1: it's reminding me of something that I've been seeing sort
Speaker 1: of evolving in my relationship now where there are times
Speaker 1: where there's some agitation that lingers. There are so many
Speaker 1: situations that pop up that are not just like between
Speaker 1: the two of you, but how the two of you
Speaker 1: handle other situations that arise that are problems that the
Speaker 1: two of you need to solve together. And you know,
Speaker 1: it could be like a family member getting sick or
Speaker 1: you know, something happens. And there are times where I
Speaker 1: found myself, you know, letting my wife know, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm still agitated about one of these decisions that we made.
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer, but can we talk about
Speaker 1: it more? Yeah, I don't really know what we should do,
Speaker 1: but let's just talk about it more and in the
Speaker 1: process of like both of us sharing the way that
Speaker 1: we feel where it's not combative, it's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: like there's something here. It's quite nice because even if
Speaker 1: the decision doesn't change, there's still a greater opportunity for
Speaker 1: both of us to feel.
Speaker 4: Seen.
Speaker 3: I go back to something you said earlier that I
Speaker 3: wanted to touch on and we just kind of moved
Speaker 3: on from, but I thought was very well said, which
Speaker 3: was this idea of the same problems sometimes are there,
Speaker 3: but our level of emotional turmoil over them is lessened. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we keep coming sort of back to this same thing
Speaker 3: because it seems to be an area that we do
Speaker 3: have some degree of an incompatibility or some sort of
Speaker 3: thing that it doesn't line up, but it's sort of
Speaker 3: less important than it used to be, so it's not gone.
Speaker 3: And I often think about that being a version of
Speaker 3: that of like the metaphor of like a spiral staircase
Speaker 3: and growth. Like if you imagine like going up in
Speaker 3: a spiral staircase and there's a picture on the wall,
Speaker 3: like you keep coming back around to that picture, but
Speaker 3: ideally the next time around you see the picture from
Speaker 3: a slightly different angle. You're a little higher up and
Speaker 3: a little higher up.
Speaker 4: You're really making me think too.
Speaker 1: Like my wife and I have this very simple like
Speaker 1: argument that you know, pops up every now and then,
Speaker 1: and it's so different in our character where I'm very
Speaker 1: touch oriented, like I need hugs from her. I need
Speaker 1: you know, kisses or even just like having like my
Speaker 1: arm on her leg or you know, just like some
Speaker 1: sort of touch, and she's much less. So she's very
Speaker 1: sort of like action oriented, you know, will care for
Speaker 1: you through through activities and through I don't know, moving
Speaker 1: things forward. And we joke, you know, like joke with her,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, I'm touched sensitive, you know, like
Speaker 1: if you don't touch me, I get sensitive. And it's
Speaker 1: a common thing. But I think when the argument comes up,
Speaker 1: it just doesn't come up with that same intensity of
Speaker 1: you know, feeling uncared for or feeling unloved because I've
Speaker 1: learned more about her. I've learned that like, oh, actually,
Speaker 1: it's not that she doesn't care for me. It's just
Speaker 1: that she has particular ways that her conditioning shows care.
Speaker 1: And we're trying to meet each other in the middle.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to work on receiving the way that she
Speaker 1: likes to care for me because it's valuable, and like,
Speaker 1: I'm also learning from that and learning how to care
Speaker 1: in that way too, and she's doing vice versa, like
Speaker 1: you know, understanding the way I like to be cared
Speaker 1: for too. But it just feels like such a learning
Speaker 1: moment and the valve of tension is released because having
Speaker 1: spent all those years together, I just see more about her,
Speaker 1: like I've had more time to understand where she's coming from.
Speaker 3: That's a great example. And I like what you said
Speaker 3: there about you're trying to meet in the middle, right,
Speaker 3: because in the book you do talk about like it's
Speaker 3: really helpful to a state how you like to be
Speaker 3: cared for, and it's ideal as a partner to try
Speaker 3: and care for the person in the way they want
Speaker 3: to be. And as we've said, like you know, you
Speaker 3: can't always get things exactly the way you want, So
Speaker 3: you and your wife are trying to sort of meet
Speaker 3: you know, she's trying to say, yes, I recognize that's
Speaker 3: important to you. I'll try and think to do that,
Speaker 3: but you know what, it's not my natural way of
Speaker 3: doing things, so I may need remind it totally, you know,
Speaker 3: and you're going, it's okay not to be that way.
Speaker 3: I see your perspective, and it's that meeting in the
Speaker 3: middle that I think is often so important and it's.
Speaker 1: So funny how like the little things where a hug
Speaker 1: to me is just as valuable as like me taking
Speaker 1: care of the composts for her, like that is to her,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh my gosh, he's really like it's just
Speaker 1: he's really showing up for me right now now. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm like teaching myself that and trying
Speaker 1: to show up the way like she likes that care.
Speaker 3: Speaking of labels, there was that book that you know,
Speaker 3: got so much attention, Five Love Languages, where it talked about, like,
Speaker 3: you know, each person has like a certain love language,
Speaker 3: and totally I found that a that's illuminating in that
Speaker 3: we feel cared for in different ways and a little
Speaker 3: overly simplistic, because actually I think, yeah, right, we all
Speaker 3: have some varying degree of many of those things, and
Speaker 3: they often shift over time. And so let's talk about comparison,
Speaker 3: and you talk about how, you know, comparing our relationship
Speaker 3: to other people's relationships can be very problematic and you
Speaker 3: mention one of the key ways this happens today is
Speaker 3: social media. I'm curious about, you know, broadly speaking, how
Speaker 3: you feel about social media, because it's been I would say,
Speaker 3: largely right, like what sort of launched your career and
Speaker 3: sustains your career. So there's clearly some good things about it,
Speaker 3: and there's clearly lots of difficult things about it. When
Speaker 3: it comes to talking with other people about how they
Speaker 3: might engage with social media, how do you think about it?
Speaker 1: It's alike in dislike relationship. I think there are so
Speaker 1: many adverse effects of social media, where, you know, if
Speaker 1: you were just to not bring any analysis to it,
Speaker 1: and you were examining your own relationship by looking, you
Speaker 1: would think, Okay, how much I love my partner is
Speaker 1: dependent on how many vacations we take together, you know,
Speaker 1: But like it's just full of illusion. And honestly, my
Speaker 1: recent approach is like, obviously I still post on Instagram
Speaker 1: and I keep that going, and I keep trying to
Speaker 1: put up good material on there, but I've been leaning
Speaker 1: on the longer format, like going back to the essay format,
Speaker 1: you know, doubling down on the newsletter as like a
Speaker 1: means of deeper communication, and I find that I think
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. Like my my guess if I were
Speaker 1: to make a real bet about what's going to happen
Speaker 1: with social media is I think that there's always going
Speaker 1: to be a place for it, but because of the
Speaker 1: advent of AI, it's making things so fake and so untrustable.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'll literally like I go online and
Speaker 1: I'll see videos and whatnot, and I'm just like, I
Speaker 1: don't even know if that's real, Like I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's real. So it's totally losing my trust.
Speaker 1: So what does that mean. I'm hoping that this puts
Speaker 1: a new premium on human to human interaction where we're
Speaker 1: like going out to hang out with friends more often,
Speaker 1: where we're going out to see plays, or we're going
Speaker 1: out to like book readings, you know, where where we
Speaker 1: can I can literally see that what you're putting forward
Speaker 1: is real. And yeah, I think, you know, social media
Speaker 1: will have its place because it's important for us to
Speaker 1: be connected with each other.
Speaker 4: But I think it's losing everybody's trust.
Speaker 3: Particularly if you have some sense of what AI is
Speaker 3: capable of, you're a little bit like terrified by it.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, and even from six months ago, it's
Speaker 1: like it's so much better now.
Speaker 3: But like all the cute animal videos that I would
Speaker 3: see of animals doing something incredible, and now I'm like,
Speaker 3: is that I don't even know if that's real? Like
Speaker 3: is that guy? Is that dog really on the surfboard?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: Does that dog really love that duck? You know, Like
Speaker 3: it's taken all the fun out of it for me.
Speaker 1: Even with the news, I've seen things like this on
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram where like they'll set up situations where
Speaker 1: it literally looks like a real reporter and it's not real.
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not real news, and it's so
Speaker 1: hard to just know like what you can trust.
Speaker 3: I was talking with Deepak Chopra recently and he's created
Speaker 3: digital DPOC, and I was like, you know what, we
Speaker 3: are six months away from probably with just a little
Speaker 3: bit of effort digital Eric being able to interview digital dpoc. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and it largely being impossible to tell M. I don't
Speaker 3: know what to do as a person who creates content
Speaker 3: sort of for a living, what you do with that, you.
Speaker 1: Know, And it seems initially like a clever idea, but
Speaker 1: I think what we're going to learn from that is
Speaker 1: that what it just produces is repetition and stagnation, right,
Speaker 1: because how creative can it really get? And can it
Speaker 1: you know, like you're losing the magic of life, Like
Speaker 1: you're losing the magic of you. And I like we're
Speaker 1: literally just rapping together. We're just like we're building, bouncing
Speaker 1: off each other. Like I had no idea where this
Speaker 1: conversation was going to go. And I know that you know,
Speaker 1: AI podcasts can do something similar, but because of our imperfections,
Speaker 1: because of our conditioning interacting in this moment, there is
Speaker 1: some beauty to that that you can't really replicate. And
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder about we were just talking about
Speaker 1: this too with different meditation teachers in the tradition I'm
Speaker 1: a part of where you know, some teachers are going
Speaker 1: to try to keep themselves alive forever and like you
Speaker 1: know where they're just it's like all the teachings are encoded.
Speaker 1: And I've heard about this from many different traditions now,
Speaker 1: but you're losing the magic of teacher to student transmission,
Speaker 1: you know, where it's like you have a student in
Speaker 1: front of you and they're asking you a question, and
Speaker 1: you're almost looking past the question to see where is
Speaker 1: the real block? And AI is not going to be
Speaker 1: able to do that. It's just going to regarditate.
Speaker 3: Before we wrap up, I want you to think about this.
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Speaker 3: I think it's very interesting because there are studies out
Speaker 3: there that have shown things that are kind of again
Speaker 3: for those of us I think that are arguing on
Speaker 3: the human side, that start to become concerning, Like people
Speaker 3: will rate an AI therapist as a better therapist than
Speaker 3: a human therapist very often until they know that it's
Speaker 3: an AI therapist of course, at which point they're like.
Speaker 4: Hell no, they're creeped out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I'm not sure that people that are ten
Speaker 3: years younger than you are going to feel that same way.
Speaker 3: And so, you know, I think it's a both fascinating
Speaker 3: and interesting and terrifying time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can look at it from different perspectives
Speaker 1: where like maybe because the AI therapist has this wide
Speaker 1: knowledge base and because it's not a real hum being,
Speaker 1: you can feel that you can really just say exactly
Speaker 1: how you feel without being judged. And I can see
Speaker 1: some people, you know, putting a high value on that.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think the human condition
Speaker 1: requires a wide variety of tools for human beings to
Speaker 1: feel like they're flourishing, for human beings to feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're growing and evolving and overcoming our past hurts.
Speaker 1: So in one way, I'm glad, I'm glad that there's
Speaker 1: a variety of tools that can meet people where they're at.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I think over the next
Speaker 1: five to ten years, everything's going to drastically, drastically change,
Speaker 1: And what I'm hoping for is that, you know, the
Speaker 1: same way when like the iPhone popped up and we
Speaker 1: all became these digital human beings. I think with AI,
Speaker 1: like AI is going to support us and being healthier,
Speaker 1: being more connected and whatnot, but it's just going to
Speaker 1: like push us back outside.
Speaker 3: That's certainly my hope and I are going to continue
Speaker 3: in the post show conversation. I'm going to talk a
Speaker 3: little bit about the art of arguing. And we started
Speaker 3: to talk about comparison a little bit, but I really
Speaker 3: do want to talk about how do I know, like,
Speaker 3: is my relationship good enough? Am I comparing it to
Speaker 3: something that's unrealistic? You know? The nuance that we get
Speaker 3: into there. But before we wrap up completely, if you
Speaker 3: wanted people to take away sort of like one key
Speaker 3: idea about love, what might it be?
Speaker 1: The key idea that I want people to walk away
Speaker 1: with is that love is not constant excitement. It's not perfection.
Speaker 1: It's not going to take all your problems away. If anything,
Speaker 1: it's going to make you see more of yourself and
Speaker 1: that's going to be challenging at times. But a challenge
Speaker 1: appearing doesn't mean that you're necessarily in an unhealthy relationship.
Speaker 1: If anything, ups and downs are absolutely natural in a relationship,
Speaker 1: and when the downs appear, there's usually opportunities to develop
Speaker 1: deeper connection with each other. It's a block making itself
Speaker 1: very clear so that the two of you can undo
Speaker 1: it so you can understand each other better.
Speaker 3: That is a beautiful place to wrap up.
Speaker 2: Diego.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I always enjoy talking with you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much. Eric. This is really fun.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
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