WEBVTT - Mental Health: Managing Mental Chatter 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:23.916 Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's Maya. As you may know, May 0:00:24.076 --> 0:00:26.836 is Mental health Awareness Month, and so I wanted to 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:29.356 go back into the archives and revisit some of my 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:33.196 favorite conversations with scientists about how we can live healthier, 0:00:33.356 --> 0:00:37.556 happier lives. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Professor 0:00:37.636 --> 0:00:41.476 Ethan Cross. He studies the science of our inner chatter, 0:00:42.076 --> 0:00:45.236 that relentless voice in our heads that can sometimes drive 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:49.356 us nuts. This episode was really therapeutic for me, and 0:00:49.436 --> 0:00:50.756 I hope it is for you too. 0:01:00.796 --> 0:01:02.956 Just last night, we were at the dinner table and 0:01:02.996 --> 0:01:06.236 one of my two daughters was telling me about a 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:10.876 problem that she experienced with another person at school. It 0:01:11.036 --> 0:01:14.356 was really bugging her the way this other student behave 0:01:14.436 --> 0:01:19.356 towards her, and she kept on going over the problem, 0:01:19.596 --> 0:01:25.236 repeating it seventeen thousand different ways, and she wasn't making 0:01:25.236 --> 0:01:28.076 any progress towards actually finding a way to think about 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:30.516 this thing that would make her feel better, and instead 0:01:30.916 --> 0:01:34.236 it just kept all of those negative feelings alive. That's 0:01:34.276 --> 0:01:37.116 what I call chatter. You keep on trying to think 0:01:37.156 --> 0:01:40.276 and work through the problem, but you don't make any progress. 0:01:41.316 --> 0:01:44.116 Ethan Cross is a professor of psychology at the University 0:01:44.156 --> 0:01:47.236 of Michigan, and he wrote the book Chatter, The Voice 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:49.876 in Our Heads, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It. 0:01:50.756 --> 0:01:53.876 Ethan's an expert on the science of introspection, and his 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:57.516 research focuses on those moments when our inner voice turns negative, 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:00.236 and he gives us strategies for how to tame it 0:02:00.276 --> 0:02:00.916 when it does. 0:02:01.556 --> 0:02:03.356 One of the things we know about chatter is it 0:02:03.796 --> 0:02:07.036 zooms us in on our problems. We get stuck thinking 0:02:07.076 --> 0:02:11.236 in a very narrow way about only this issue, right 0:02:11.716 --> 0:02:14.636 We're not thinking about the bigger picture or alternative ways 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:17.996 of making sense of that circumstance. And what we've learned 0:02:18.036 --> 0:02:22.316 over the years is that being able to step back, 0:02:22.636 --> 0:02:24.996 just take a little step back in your mind, get 0:02:24.996 --> 0:02:28.436 some psychological distance from your problems, can be really useful 0:02:28.476 --> 0:02:32.156 for broadening our perspective and helping us work through the 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:34.156 situation more objectively. 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:38.876 On today's episode, how to Control our Inner Voice to 0:02:38.916 --> 0:02:45.836 help us live happier, healthier lives, I'm Maya Shunker and 0:02:45.876 --> 0:02:48.396 this is a slight change of plans, a show about 0:02:48.396 --> 0:02:50.756 who we are and who we become in the face 0:02:50.876 --> 0:02:57.316 of a big change. We're all familiar with our inner voice. 0:02:57.836 --> 0:03:00.836 It's that running monologue in our heads that sometimes serves 0:03:00.916 --> 0:03:03.716 us well and at other times, was the case with 0:03:03.756 --> 0:03:07.916 Ethan's daughter, totally drives us nuts, and when it does, 0:03:08.036 --> 0:03:11.396 it can really affect our well being. The good news 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:14.596 science shows we can change the way we engage with 0:03:14.636 --> 0:03:18.356 our inner voice, and Ethan is here to help. But 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:21.076 before we dive into all that, I asked Ethan to 0:03:21.076 --> 0:03:23.916 give us an overview of the positive aspects of this 0:03:24.036 --> 0:03:25.356 uniquely human ability. 0:03:26.516 --> 0:03:29.436 I like to think about this inner voice as a 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:32.676 kind of Swiss army knife of the human mind that 0:03:32.916 --> 0:03:36.796 lets us achieve a number of important things. So, at 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:40.356 the most basic end of the spectrum, your inner voice 0:03:40.516 --> 0:03:42.596 lets you just keep information active in your heads. This 0:03:42.636 --> 0:03:45.036 may not be the most glamorous feature of it, but 0:03:45.396 --> 0:03:49.036 my oh my, is it an important one. So if 0:03:49.076 --> 0:03:52.356 you go to the grocery store, for example, and you're 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:55.076 like me, you know, my wife tells me what we need, 0:03:55.156 --> 0:03:57.996 and thirty seconds later I forget what those things are. 0:03:58.276 --> 0:04:00.636 I'm walking down the grocery all that, I'm thinking to myself, 0:04:00.876 --> 0:04:02.916 what do I have to order? And I go over 0:04:02.956 --> 0:04:08.476 the list in my head. Cheeze granola fruit I'm using 0:04:08.516 --> 0:04:12.196 words silently to repeat those items. It's part of our 0:04:12.276 --> 0:04:16.356 working memory system, basic system of the human mind that 0:04:16.716 --> 0:04:20.476 is fundamental to our ability to navigate the world. So 0:04:20.476 --> 0:04:22.156 your in a voice lets you do that, but then 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:26.676 it lets you do lots of other Arguably, I don't know, 0:04:26.956 --> 0:04:32.276 sexier things like like tell stories. Right, So we experienced 0:04:32.276 --> 0:04:36.276 adversity in our lives. Oh my god, my paper was rejected, 0:04:36.596 --> 0:04:41.436 my kid didn't do well on the soccer field. I 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:43.996 didn't have a great conversation with a colleague yesterday. When 0:04:43.996 --> 0:04:47.756 that happens, we turn our attention inward to make sense 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:50.276 of what happened to us, and we use our inner 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:54.516 voice to create those stories. That's a that's a really 0:04:54.556 --> 0:04:55.676 important capacity. 0:04:56.116 --> 0:04:57.996 Yeah, and I love another one you mentioned in your book, 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:01.156 which is that our inability to escape our minds is 0:05:01.196 --> 0:05:05.316 also a driver of human ingenuity. It's like the fact 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:08.516 that we can't escape our minds is giving us this 0:05:08.596 --> 0:05:12.116 fertile so for creative ideas to come into existence. Right. 0:05:12.156 --> 0:05:14.236 I mean those the thoughts you have in the shower 0:05:14.356 --> 0:05:16.476 and you're taking a walk and you don't even notice it, 0:05:16.516 --> 0:05:18.116 but your mind is drifting off and then all of 0:05:18.156 --> 0:05:20.276 a sudden you come up with the new idea. 0:05:21.036 --> 0:05:22.996 Yeah, totally. I mean I think this is the source 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:26.636 of human innovation, which is why I think we actually 0:05:26.676 --> 0:05:32.036 want to give ourselves latitude to let our introspective capacities 0:05:32.116 --> 0:05:35.916 run wild. So, you know, it's interesting. There's some research 0:05:35.956 --> 0:05:40.196 which suggests that we spend between one half and one 0:05:40.236 --> 0:05:43.116 third of our waking hours not focused on the present, 0:05:43.756 --> 0:05:47.596 and sometimes those data are used to suggest that there's 0:05:47.636 --> 0:05:50.836 a huge problem, right, because we should always be in 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:55.396 the present, but this ability to travel in time in 0:05:55.436 --> 0:05:57.596 our minds so to turn our attention inwhere to think 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:01.276 about our past and anticipate the future. This lets us 0:06:01.276 --> 0:06:03.276 do a number of remarkable things. 0:06:04.116 --> 0:06:07.196 Yeah, so let's dig in right to this live in 0:06:07.236 --> 0:06:10.316 the present more mantra. Right, that is very much in 0:06:10.316 --> 0:06:13.276 the zeitgeist. I want to hear what your reaction is 0:06:13.316 --> 0:06:17.076 to this, because it strikes me that we are we 0:06:17.156 --> 0:06:20.676 are forgetting the benefits of allowing our minds to wander, 0:06:21.116 --> 0:06:25.196 And my personal view is that we are failing to 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:27.876 appreciate how remarkable it is that we even have this 0:06:27.956 --> 0:06:30.796 ability in the first place. So just a personal anecdote 0:06:30.916 --> 0:06:34.316 is I remember my good friend from college Dane. He 0:06:34.396 --> 0:06:37.516 got onto the mindfulness meditation present mind in this train, 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:42.556 and he got really enamored with this particular spiritual guru. 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:46.116 I remember Dane telling me, oh, yeah, Maya, like you 0:06:46.716 --> 0:06:48.356 got to stay more in the present, and he sends 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:50.916 me a video of this guru, and the guru is 0:06:50.956 --> 0:06:53.716 going on and on about the importance of staying in 0:06:53.716 --> 0:06:55.756 the present, and then at one point he calls out 0:06:55.796 --> 0:06:57.476 a member of the audience and he kind of gives 0:06:57.756 --> 0:06:59.676 him a stern lecture and he's like, what have you 0:06:59.716 --> 0:07:02.036 found yourself thinking about? And the guy's like, well, actually, 0:07:02.116 --> 0:07:05.156 I was kind of imagining that I was going to 0:07:05.156 --> 0:07:06.636 go to lunch after this, and I was kind of 0:07:06.636 --> 0:07:08.556 imagine what I was going to order at the restaurant 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:11.676 and what it was going to taste like. And you know, 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:14.676 he gets the audience member gets scolded by the guru 0:07:14.716 --> 0:07:19.196 for having these thoughts, and I'm thinking to myself, first 0:07:19.236 --> 0:07:21.716 of all, this guru is very boring to me. So 0:07:22.156 --> 0:07:24.956 it's wonderful that this audience member had an escape route 0:07:24.996 --> 0:07:28.756 from the lecture that was happening. But two, it's amazing 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:32.676 that we have this faculty that allows us at times 0:07:32.716 --> 0:07:37.196 to escape our present environment and think about other things, 0:07:37.196 --> 0:07:39.996 to daydream, to think about the future, to anticipate things 0:07:40.076 --> 0:07:43.476 like that is a rich part of the human experience 0:07:43.556 --> 0:07:46.956 that I don't want to be lost on people, and 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:49.796 so I think, I think reframing our relationship with our 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:53.836 inner monologue chatter it can be in the long term 0:07:53.996 --> 0:07:56.396 a productive way of actually solving some of the challenges 0:07:56.436 --> 0:07:58.396 that accompany the inner voice. 0:07:58.676 --> 0:08:02.356 Yeah, I totally agree. You know. I use the title 0:08:02.516 --> 0:08:06.956 Harness our Inner Voice for the title for the book. 0:08:06.996 --> 0:08:10.436 The subtitle I didn't say silence, and that was a 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:15.156 very strategic decision. A lot of people that I speak 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:18.156 to when we're talking about, you know, the inner voice 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:20.676 run a muck, which is essentially chatter when you're getting 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:22.876 stuck in those thought loops that you can't escape, and 0:08:22.916 --> 0:08:25.876 they are, for lack of a better term, driving you nuts. Right, 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:33.116 They're so oppressive and stifling and really not fun. So 0:08:33.316 --> 0:08:36.276 many people ask me, Okay, what can I do to 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:38.756 get rid of it? I just want to shut it up. 0:08:39.236 --> 0:08:41.316 I don't want to have an InterVoice. And there's a 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:42.756 story I tell in the book. It's one of my 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:46.076 favorite stories. It's of a woman named Jobol Taylor who 0:08:46.276 --> 0:08:49.916 was a Harvard neuro anatomis working at the very top 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:53.956 of her game, and like so many of us, she 0:08:54.076 --> 0:08:56.716 experienced chatter from time to time, and she thought this 0:08:56.916 --> 0:08:59.276 same thing to herself. She would ask them, how can 0:08:59.316 --> 0:09:03.556 I silence this inner voice? And she got an answer 0:09:03.636 --> 0:09:06.556 to that question one morning when she was exercising on 0:09:06.596 --> 0:09:11.796 a treadmill, because she suffered a stroke that temporarily, you know, 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:14.556 wiped out her ability to use language, not only to 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:18.916 communicate with other people, but also with herselves. And initially 0:09:18.956 --> 0:09:25.316 she described this experience as wait for it, strangely, you fork. Now, 0:09:25.796 --> 0:09:29.236 that's remarkable to me, right, She's just had a massive stroke. 0:09:29.716 --> 0:09:32.676 It's targeted language centers in her brain. She cannot speak 0:09:32.716 --> 0:09:35.676 to other people or to herself. And what's the emotion 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:40.796 relief because all the chatter is gone, all that chatter 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:43.876 that was weighing her down. But as the days and 0:09:44.396 --> 0:09:48.476 weeks went on, she began to describe this experience as 0:09:48.956 --> 0:09:53.356 quite debilitating, because although the chatter was gone, so were 0:09:53.396 --> 0:09:55.876 all of the good things that her inner voice allowed 0:09:55.916 --> 0:09:58.556 her to do, like plan for the future and control 0:09:58.596 --> 0:10:01.516 herself and create stories and keep things in mind and. 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:03.556 So and improve as a person. By the way, like 0:10:03.596 --> 0:10:07.596 the negative chatter is productive, it's very helpful. It's data 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:10.876 to ourselves about how we can become better people, right 0:10:10.916 --> 0:10:13.756 and take feedback in and work at things. 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:18.116 That touches on another I think an important reframe for listeners, 0:10:18.156 --> 0:10:23.076 which is we often strive to lead lives free of 0:10:23.116 --> 0:10:28.156 negative emotions, but in fact, all emotions are useful when 0:10:28.276 --> 0:10:31.836 experienced in small doses. When I experienced a small ping 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:35.996 of anxiety before a big presentation, that's really really a 0:10:36.116 --> 0:10:38.956 useful response, because what it does is it says, hey, 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:42.596 you know, start preparing and don't just walk in there 0:10:42.756 --> 0:10:45.196 and think you could wing it. There have been a 0:10:45.236 --> 0:10:49.196 few occasions where I haven't experienced any emotion before presentation. 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:52.796 Those presentations actually didn't turn out as well as the 0:10:52.796 --> 0:10:54.436 ones that I was a little bit on edge for. 0:10:54.876 --> 0:10:57.636 And the same is true for all the negative emotions 0:10:57.636 --> 0:11:01.556 we experience. What makes them useful is that they are painful. 0:11:01.596 --> 0:11:04.036 They do draw our attention in you just don't want 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:07.756 to bathe in them endlessly. That's when they become counterproductive. 0:11:08.516 --> 0:11:10.836 Yeah, And so with that in mind, let's get into 0:11:10.916 --> 0:11:15.036 the kind of the darker sides of this ability. As 0:11:15.076 --> 0:11:18.476 we've discussed. So much of our lived experience is the 0:11:18.476 --> 0:11:21.076 thoughts that are happening in our heads, and so it's 0:11:21.476 --> 0:11:25.516 important for us to learn how to better manage those thoughts, right, 0:11:25.596 --> 0:11:29.796 to better manage that monologue. And this is especially true 0:11:29.836 --> 0:11:32.796 because another thing you point out in your book is 0:11:32.836 --> 0:11:36.636 that our inner voice is more predictive of our happiness 0:11:36.716 --> 0:11:39.396 than what we're actually doing. And man, is this going 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:41.876 to be salient for so many people who are listening, 0:11:41.956 --> 0:11:44.956 Like I'm on the luxury vacation, I'm on the beach, 0:11:44.996 --> 0:11:46.556 I'm apposedly having the time of my life, and yet 0:11:46.596 --> 0:11:48.676 I'm anxious about something that's happening back home, and my 0:11:48.716 --> 0:11:51.916 mind is not even present and fully sabotages what's otherwise 0:11:51.916 --> 0:11:56.236 supposed to be a great experience. When does our inner 0:11:56.316 --> 0:12:00.276 voice become harmful and transform into what you call chatter? 0:12:01.596 --> 0:12:06.996 So it becomes harmful when we experience something in our 0:12:07.156 --> 0:12:10.636 life that that cues to try to use this tool 0:12:11.076 --> 0:12:14.276 that we have to make sense of our feelings, but 0:12:14.516 --> 0:12:17.476 the tool gets jammed up, so something bad happens. We 0:12:17.516 --> 0:12:19.196 turn our attention in we'd to try to make sense 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:21.196 of the problem, but we get stuck in a negative 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:24.276 thought loop. That's what I call chatter. You keep on 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:27.076 trying to think and work through the problem, but you 0:12:27.116 --> 0:12:29.876 don't make any progress. And there are lots of different 0:12:29.996 --> 0:12:34.356 terms that scientists have used to describe this state. If 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:37.716 it's chatter about the past, we tend to call that ruminating. 0:12:37.796 --> 0:12:41.196 If it's about the future or present, we call that worrying. 0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:45.716 Sometimes we call it perseverating. But the common idea here 0:12:45.916 --> 0:12:50.156 is you're trying to make sense of a problem with language, 0:12:50.516 --> 0:12:54.036 but you're not making any forward progress. It's kind of 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:56.796 like the visual is one of a hamster on an 0:12:56.836 --> 0:12:57.716 exercise wheel. 0:12:57.996 --> 0:13:02.196 H We fall prey to this illusion when we're actively 0:13:02.516 --> 0:13:05.436 repeating those loops in our mind that we are actually 0:13:05.436 --> 0:13:10.716 making progress because just merely indulging in that topic, right, 0:13:10.796 --> 0:13:13.996 like staying in that space. I think it fools our 0:13:13.996 --> 0:13:18.676 brains into thinking, ah, I am in fact advancing because 0:13:18.716 --> 0:13:20.796 look at how much airtime this topic is getting in 0:13:20.836 --> 0:13:24.516 my mind. And then only maybe hours later, do you realize, 0:13:24.596 --> 0:13:27.516 oh crap, I'm in exactly the same position that I 0:13:27.556 --> 0:13:30.116 was in at the beginning. But I've been seduced by 0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:31.676 that this feeling of oh, you know, I'm gonna be 0:13:31.716 --> 0:13:33.156 a real resolve it if I just kind of keep 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:36.436 it marinating in there, and then without really sophisticated strategies 0:13:36.476 --> 0:13:40.436 like from cognitive behavioral therapy and whatnot, you know, oftentimes 0:13:40.436 --> 0:13:41.756 it's not that productive. 0:13:42.476 --> 0:13:46.276 Well, and think about how much experience you have succeeding 0:13:46.476 --> 0:13:48.876 in the usage of this tool. Like most of the time, 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:53.276 this tool, this ability to use language to think analytically 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:56.876 about a problem, it serves you really really will. I mean, 0:13:56.876 --> 0:14:00.436 this is undoubtedly why you have been able to achieve 0:14:00.476 --> 0:14:03.436 the things that you have accomplished in your life, and 0:14:03.716 --> 0:14:05.476 the same is true for so many other people. So 0:14:06.156 --> 0:14:09.756 you've got this tool that often works really really well. 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:13.156 It should work here it's not working. I'm not a 0:14:13.516 --> 0:14:16.196 I don't give up. I'm gonna keep going. And so 0:14:16.316 --> 0:14:19.236 that's when you really need this ability to step back, 0:14:19.276 --> 0:14:24.916 if you will, and just recognize weight this approach isn't working. 0:14:25.396 --> 0:14:27.676 Let me shift perspective or do any number of other 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:31.756 things to help reconcile the situation. So, you know, it's 0:14:31.756 --> 0:14:34.116 something that we all fall victim to at times. 0:14:34.396 --> 0:14:38.076 Yeah, can you say more about how that inner monologue 0:14:38.156 --> 0:14:40.356 can lead us astray in these moments or what the 0:14:40.396 --> 0:14:41.796 negative consequences can be. 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:46.396 Yeah, happy to. So when the inner voice morphs into chatter, 0:14:46.676 --> 0:14:49.956 it sinks us in three domains of life that I 0:14:49.996 --> 0:14:52.916 think are three domains that we care a lot about 0:14:52.956 --> 0:14:55.316 and really make life worth living. And that's why I 0:14:55.316 --> 0:14:59.516 think it's such a huge problem. First, chatter consumes our 0:14:59.556 --> 0:15:02.436 attention to the point where we have very little left 0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:05.396 over to focus on other things. And so the example 0:15:05.396 --> 0:15:07.956 I like to give people is to to think about 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:10.236 a time when you're work, worried about something you ruminating, 0:15:10.236 --> 0:15:11.476 and you sit down, you try to read a couple 0:15:11.476 --> 0:15:13.756 of pages in a book or a magazine, and you 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.956 read the pages, you are sure, like under oath, you 0:15:16.956 --> 0:15:20.596 would swear that the information has past your gaze, but 0:15:20.676 --> 0:15:23.716 you don't remember anything that you have read. It is 0:15:23.716 --> 0:15:27.836 an incredibly common experience, and the idea is very very simple. 0:15:28.116 --> 0:15:30.916 We only have so much attention. If all of it 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:33.596 is being consumed by your chatter, that means not much 0:15:33.676 --> 0:15:36.436 is leftover to do your job. Not a good thing. 0:15:36.996 --> 0:15:41.036 We also know that chatter can undo our habits, and 0:15:41.076 --> 0:15:44.996 the way this works is like what is a habit? 0:15:45.036 --> 0:15:48.756 A habit is a complex set of behaviors that are 0:15:48.836 --> 0:15:52.316 strung together through repeated practice. So when I get up 0:15:52.356 --> 0:15:55.236 on stage to give a presentation. I've given hundreds and 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:58.676 hundreds of talks. I've learned to do things without thinking, 0:15:58.756 --> 0:16:01.236 like to move my hands in particular ways and vary 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:04.676 my vocal tone and smile and look at different people 0:16:04.676 --> 0:16:08.796 in the audience. If I start to worry about what 0:16:08.796 --> 0:16:11.556 I'm doing, oh my god, am I giving a good presentation? 0:16:12.276 --> 0:16:15.756 What happens is I zoom in on all the individual behaviors. 0:16:16.276 --> 0:16:17.316 Am I smiling enough? 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:17.836 Yeah? 0:16:18.436 --> 0:16:20.876 Am I using the stage appropriately? And once you start 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:25.236 doing that, the whole script explodes, the behavior explodes. You 0:16:25.236 --> 0:16:28.276 don't do well. And we saw this happen on the 0:16:28.316 --> 0:16:31.996 grandest stage in the Olympics when Simone Biles dropped out 0:16:32.036 --> 0:16:35.196 because of what she called the twisties. The twisties are 0:16:35.236 --> 0:16:39.156 another name for chatter. Sometimes they're called the yips. And 0:16:39.396 --> 0:16:43.436 if you think about Simone's situation, I think it really 0:16:43.596 --> 0:16:47.836 highlights just how toxic this can be. Here. You have 0:16:47.956 --> 0:16:52.836 someone who is on the peak. You know, she's at 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:54.836 the peak of her career on the grandest stage. 0:16:55.116 --> 0:16:58.276 Yeah, and she appropriate best in human history as well. 0:16:58.196 --> 0:17:00.956 Best in human history, and she has to drop out 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:04.396 appropriately because it was dangerous and so that's what chatter 0:17:04.516 --> 0:17:08.036 can do to us when it comes to our individual performance. 0:17:09.396 --> 0:17:11.676 If we shift to the second domain, we know that 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:15.436 chatter undermines our relationships. That can create friction, and there 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:18.156 are a couple of ways that works too. One thing 0:17:18.196 --> 0:17:21.636 that chatter can do is it can push other people 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:23.876 who care about us away. And here are the ideas. 0:17:24.276 --> 0:17:28.156 You've got a problem and you're motivated to share it 0:17:28.196 --> 0:17:30.716 with other people for a variety of reasons. You want 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:33.836 to get support. But what happens is you talk to 0:17:33.836 --> 0:17:36.316 the other person about the problem, and then you keep 0:17:36.356 --> 0:17:39.956 talking about it over and over and over again. And 0:17:40.196 --> 0:17:42.436 for most of us, there's only so much we can 0:17:42.516 --> 0:17:47.276 listen to before we ourselves start to get brought down. 0:17:47.836 --> 0:17:50.316 And so that's one of the ways that that chatter 0:17:50.356 --> 0:17:52.956 can alienate us from others, lead us to feel socially 0:17:52.996 --> 0:17:59.316 rejected and alone. These are not healthy states. Boy, I'm 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:02.116 getting depressed just talking about this maya but let me 0:18:02.196 --> 0:18:05.556 quickly just mention the final domain, which is our physical health, 0:18:06.076 --> 0:18:10.076 that I think is really important to highlight. Many people 0:18:10.196 --> 0:18:14.396 think that experience stress like stress kills This is a 0:18:14.476 --> 0:18:19.236 very popular idea. It turns out that is not exactly correct. 0:18:19.636 --> 0:18:22.196 What we know is that the ability to experience a 0:18:22.236 --> 0:18:29.396 stress response is an amazingly useful biological reaction to a 0:18:29.396 --> 0:18:33.356 confronting threat. It is really useful to know that if 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:36.076 we see a threat in our world, we have a 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:39.276 system that is designed to get us to approach or 0:18:39.316 --> 0:18:42.996 avoid it in a split second. What makes stress toxic 0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:47.276 is when the stress response goes up and remains chronically 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:51.076 elevated over time, over days, over weeks. That's what chatter 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:54.836 does because we experience a threat in our world, and 0:18:54.876 --> 0:18:57.996 then we keep replaying it in our minds, sometimes even 0:18:57.996 --> 0:19:01.356 making it worse, and that keeps the whole stress machinery 0:19:01.396 --> 0:19:04.956 going in ways that lead stress to predict things like 0:19:05.076 --> 0:19:09.116 cardiovascular disease and certain forms of cancer and other unpleasant 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:14.756 and physical states to talk about so thinking, performing relationships 0:19:14.796 --> 0:19:18.476 health Chatter wraps its tentacles around all of those domains, 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:20.716 and it's why I think it's one of the big 0:19:20.756 --> 0:19:21.476 problems we face. 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:25.396 I promise hope is on the way. Don't worry. When 0:19:25.436 --> 0:19:28.676 we return Ethan will give us some science based strategies 0:19:28.716 --> 0:19:32.196 to help us harness our inner voice. We'll be right 0:19:32.236 --> 0:19:42.956 back with a slight change of plans. Okay, so we 0:19:43.036 --> 0:19:46.156 need some hope, Ethan. You got to help us out here, 0:19:46.196 --> 0:19:48.356 all right, I'd love to do a deep dive in 0:19:48.436 --> 0:19:50.756 some of the strategies we can use for better managing 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:51.236 our chatter. 0:19:51.596 --> 0:19:55.076 Yeah, so just to give give everyone a framework for 0:19:55.156 --> 0:19:59.236 thinking about these tools and also being hopeful for managing 0:19:59.236 --> 0:20:01.556 their chatter. I want to be super clear, there are 0:20:01.676 --> 0:20:04.396 lots and lots of tools that exist for managing our chatter, 0:20:04.556 --> 0:20:07.916 and so like when I think about the potential that 0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:11.836 is out there, a lot of it. So where do 0:20:11.876 --> 0:20:14.036 you find these tools? You could think of them as 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:17.396 falling into three different domains or buckets. Things you could 0:20:17.396 --> 0:20:20.996 do on your own, relationship tools, ways of talking or 0:20:21.036 --> 0:20:23.076 interacting with other people that can be uphull, and then 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:25.996 what I call environmental or physical tools out there in 0:20:25.996 --> 0:20:28.636 the world. If we start with the first category, things 0:20:28.676 --> 0:20:30.916 you could do on your own, one of the things 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:33.316 we know about chatter is it zooms us in on 0:20:33.316 --> 0:20:36.996 our problems. We get stuck thinking in a very narrow 0:20:37.036 --> 0:20:41.596 way about only this issue, right, We're not thinking about 0:20:41.676 --> 0:20:44.276 the bigger picture or alternative ways of making sense of 0:20:44.316 --> 0:20:48.556 that circumstance. And what we've learned over the years. Is 0:20:48.596 --> 0:20:52.276 that being able to step back, just take a little 0:20:52.276 --> 0:20:55.276 step back in your mind, get some psychological distance from 0:20:55.276 --> 0:20:58.996 your problems can be really useful for broadening our perspective 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:03.876 and helping us work through the situation more objectively. One 0:21:03.916 --> 0:21:10.276 of the findings that my colleagues and I and several 0:21:10.356 --> 0:21:12.476 years ago, that I always come back to is this 0:21:13.556 --> 0:21:17.196 we are much much better at giving advice to other 0:21:17.236 --> 0:21:19.956 people than we are following our own advice. I find 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:23.436 this really remarkable. You know a friend or a loved 0:21:23.436 --> 0:21:25.956 one who is struggling with the same problem that you 0:21:26.036 --> 0:21:28.876 might have experienced at some point when they come to them. 0:21:28.916 --> 0:21:31.476 Sorry, just sorry, sorry interrupting. I just want to clarify, 0:21:31.516 --> 0:21:35.116 because I think, is it about we're better at giving 0:21:35.116 --> 0:21:37.156 advice to other people than following our owner We're better 0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:39.476 at giving advice to others than we are at giving 0:21:39.516 --> 0:21:40.596 advice to ourselves. 0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:45.676 Well, I would say giving advice to others, we're better 0:21:45.676 --> 0:21:48.156 at doing that than following our own advice. 0:21:49.236 --> 0:21:51.916 Okay, because it also seems like we sometimes give ourselves 0:21:51.996 --> 0:21:54.236 bad advice as well when it's the first person thing, 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:55.796 because emotions cloud our judgments. 0:21:55.836 --> 0:21:58.756 Well, you know, I would say it's probably both actually 0:21:59.076 --> 0:22:03.836 so we give better. We give ourselves often poorer advice, 0:22:04.116 --> 0:22:08.716 and we have trouble following the more effective pieces when 0:22:08.796 --> 0:22:12.836 we think about them. And it's a pretty pervasive phenomenon. 0:22:13.436 --> 0:22:15.436 And what we've learned is that there are lots of 0:22:15.476 --> 0:22:20.556 different psychological tools people can use to shift their perspective 0:22:20.676 --> 0:22:23.076 and get them to think about their problems like they 0:22:23.076 --> 0:22:25.356 were weighing in on someone else's problems. And when you 0:22:25.436 --> 0:22:30.276 do that, you often find less chatter, more objective thinking, 0:22:30.556 --> 0:22:34.796 what we might even call wiser reasoning about about issues 0:22:34.836 --> 0:22:38.236 that we're facing. I'll tell you about two of my favorites, 0:22:38.276 --> 0:22:42.236 which also happen to be two tools that I use 0:22:42.476 --> 0:22:45.876 myself if I experienced shadow. They're my first lines of defense. 0:22:46.196 --> 0:22:46.676 I love it. 0:22:47.396 --> 0:22:52.396 The first one is maybe counterintuitive to folks. What it 0:22:52.476 --> 0:22:57.116 involves doing is trying to coach yourself through a problem 0:22:57.596 --> 0:23:00.956 using your own name or the second person pronound you. So, 0:23:01.036 --> 0:23:05.756 if I'm really upset about something and spinning alread ethan, 0:23:06.316 --> 0:23:07.996