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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's Maya. As you may know, May

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Speaker 1: is Mental health Awareness Month, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 1: go back into the archives and revisit some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite conversations with scientists about how we can live healthier,

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Speaker 1: happier lives. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Professor

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cross. He studies the science of our inner chatter,

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Speaker 1: that relentless voice in our heads that can sometimes drive

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Speaker 1: us nuts. This episode was really therapeutic for me, and

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Speaker 1: I hope it is for you too.

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Speaker 2: Just last night, we were at the dinner table and

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Speaker 2: one of my two daughters was telling me about a

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Speaker 2: problem that she experienced with another person at school. It

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Speaker 2: was really bugging her the way this other student behave

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Speaker 2: towards her, and she kept on going over the problem,

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Speaker 2: repeating it seventeen thousand different ways, and she wasn't making

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Speaker 2: any progress towards actually finding a way to think about

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Speaker 2: this thing that would make her feel better, and instead

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Speaker 2: it just kept all of those negative feelings alive. That's

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Speaker 2: what I call chatter. You keep on trying to think

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Speaker 2: and work through the problem, but you don't make any progress.

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cross is a professor of psychology at the University

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Speaker 1: of Michigan, and he wrote the book Chatter, The Voice

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Speaker 1: in Our Heads, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It.

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Speaker 1: Ethan's an expert on the science of introspection, and his

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Speaker 1: research focuses on those moments when our inner voice turns negative,

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Speaker 1: and he gives us strategies for how to tame it

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Speaker 1: when it does.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we know about chatter is it

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Speaker 2: zooms us in on our problems. We get stuck thinking

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Speaker 2: in a very narrow way about only this issue, right

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Speaker 2: We're not thinking about the bigger picture or alternative ways

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Speaker 2: of making sense of that circumstance. And what we've learned

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Speaker 2: over the years is that being able to step back,

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Speaker 2: just take a little step back in your mind, get

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Speaker 2: some psychological distance from your problems, can be really useful

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Speaker 2: for broadening our perspective and helping us work through the

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Speaker 2: situation more objectively.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, how to Control our Inner Voice to

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Speaker 1: help us live happier, healthier lives, I'm Maya Shunker and

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Speaker 1: this is a slight change of plans, a show about

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Speaker 1: who we are and who we become in the face

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Speaker 1: of a big change. We're all familiar with our inner voice.

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Speaker 1: It's that running monologue in our heads that sometimes serves

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Speaker 1: us well and at other times, was the case with

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Speaker 1: Ethan's daughter, totally drives us nuts, and when it does,

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Speaker 1: it can really affect our well being. The good news

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Speaker 1: science shows we can change the way we engage with

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Speaker 1: our inner voice, and Ethan is here to help. But

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Speaker 1: before we dive into all that, I asked Ethan to

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Speaker 1: give us an overview of the positive aspects of this

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Speaker 1: uniquely human ability.

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Speaker 2: I like to think about this inner voice as a

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Speaker 2: kind of Swiss army knife of the human mind that

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Speaker 2: lets us achieve a number of important things. So, at

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Speaker 2: the most basic end of the spectrum, your inner voice

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Speaker 2: lets you just keep information active in your heads. This

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Speaker 2: may not be the most glamorous feature of it, but

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Speaker 2: my oh my, is it an important one. So if

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Speaker 2: you go to the grocery store, for example, and you're

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Speaker 2: like me, you know, my wife tells me what we need,

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Speaker 2: and thirty seconds later I forget what those things are.

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Speaker 2: I'm walking down the grocery all that, I'm thinking to myself,

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Speaker 2: what do I have to order? And I go over

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Speaker 2: the list in my head. Cheeze granola fruit I'm using

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Speaker 2: words silently to repeat those items. It's part of our

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Speaker 2: working memory system, basic system of the human mind that

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Speaker 2: is fundamental to our ability to navigate the world. So

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Speaker 2: your in a voice lets you do that, but then

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Speaker 2: it lets you do lots of other Arguably, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: sexier things like like tell stories. Right, So we experienced

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Speaker 2: adversity in our lives. Oh my god, my paper was rejected,

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Speaker 2: my kid didn't do well on the soccer field. I

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Speaker 2: didn't have a great conversation with a colleague yesterday. When

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Speaker 2: that happens, we turn our attention inward to make sense

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Speaker 2: of what happened to us, and we use our inner

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Speaker 2: voice to create those stories. That's a that's a really

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Speaker 2: important capacity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love another one you mentioned in your book,

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Speaker 1: which is that our inability to escape our minds is

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Speaker 1: also a driver of human ingenuity. It's like the fact

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Speaker 1: that we can't escape our minds is giving us this

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Speaker 1: fertile so for creative ideas to come into existence. Right.

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Speaker 1: I mean those the thoughts you have in the shower

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Speaker 1: and you're taking a walk and you don't even notice it,

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Speaker 1: but your mind is drifting off and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you come up with the new idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I mean I think this is the source

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Speaker 2: of human innovation, which is why I think we actually

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Speaker 2: want to give ourselves latitude to let our introspective capacities

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Speaker 2: run wild. So, you know, it's interesting. There's some research

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Speaker 2: which suggests that we spend between one half and one

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Speaker 2: third of our waking hours not focused on the present,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes those data are used to suggest that there's

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Speaker 2: a huge problem, right, because we should always be in

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Speaker 2: the present, but this ability to travel in time in

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Speaker 2: our minds so to turn our attention inwhere to think

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Speaker 2: about our past and anticipate the future. This lets us

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Speaker 2: do a number of remarkable things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's dig in right to this live in

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Speaker 1: the present more mantra. Right, that is very much in

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Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. I want to hear what your reaction is

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Speaker 1: to this, because it strikes me that we are we

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Speaker 1: are forgetting the benefits of allowing our minds to wander,

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Speaker 1: And my personal view is that we are failing to

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Speaker 1: appreciate how remarkable it is that we even have this

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Speaker 1: ability in the first place. So just a personal anecdote

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Speaker 1: is I remember my good friend from college Dane. He

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Speaker 1: got onto the mindfulness meditation present mind in this train,

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Speaker 1: and he got really enamored with this particular spiritual guru.

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Speaker 1: I remember Dane telling me, oh, yeah, Maya, like you

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Speaker 1: got to stay more in the present, and he sends

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Speaker 1: me a video of this guru, and the guru is

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Speaker 1: going on and on about the importance of staying in

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Speaker 1: the present, and then at one point he calls out

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Speaker 1: a member of the audience and he kind of gives

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Speaker 1: him a stern lecture and he's like, what have you

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Speaker 1: found yourself thinking about? And the guy's like, well, actually,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of imagining that I was going to

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Speaker 1: go to lunch after this, and I was kind of

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Speaker 1: imagine what I was going to order at the restaurant

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Speaker 1: and what it was going to taste like. And you know,

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Speaker 1: he gets the audience member gets scolded by the guru

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Speaker 1: for having these thoughts, and I'm thinking to myself, first

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Speaker 1: of all, this guru is very boring to me. So

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Speaker 1: it's wonderful that this audience member had an escape route

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Speaker 1: from the lecture that was happening. But two, it's amazing

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Speaker 1: that we have this faculty that allows us at times

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Speaker 1: to escape our present environment and think about other things,

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Speaker 1: to daydream, to think about the future, to anticipate things

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Speaker 1: like that is a rich part of the human experience

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Speaker 1: that I don't want to be lost on people, and

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Speaker 1: so I think, I think reframing our relationship with our

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Speaker 1: inner monologue chatter it can be in the long term

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Speaker 1: a productive way of actually solving some of the challenges

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Speaker 1: that accompany the inner voice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree. You know. I use the title

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Speaker 2: Harness our Inner Voice for the title for the book.

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Speaker 2: The subtitle I didn't say silence, and that was a

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Speaker 2: very strategic decision. A lot of people that I speak

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Speaker 2: to when we're talking about, you know, the inner voice

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Speaker 2: run a muck, which is essentially chatter when you're getting

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Speaker 2: stuck in those thought loops that you can't escape, and

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Speaker 2: they are, for lack of a better term, driving you nuts. Right,

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Speaker 2: They're so oppressive and stifling and really not fun. So

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Speaker 2: many people ask me, Okay, what can I do to

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Speaker 2: get rid of it? I just want to shut it up.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to have an InterVoice. And there's a

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Speaker 2: story I tell in the book. It's one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite stories. It's of a woman named Jobol Taylor who

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Speaker 2: was a Harvard neuro anatomis working at the very top

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Speaker 2: of her game, and like so many of us, she

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Speaker 2: experienced chatter from time to time, and she thought this

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Speaker 2: same thing to herself. She would ask them, how can

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Speaker 2: I silence this inner voice? And she got an answer

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Speaker 2: to that question one morning when she was exercising on

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Speaker 2: a treadmill, because she suffered a stroke that temporarily, you know,

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Speaker 2: wiped out her ability to use language, not only to

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Speaker 2: communicate with other people, but also with herselves. And initially

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Speaker 2: she described this experience as wait for it, strangely, you fork. Now,

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Speaker 2: that's remarkable to me, right, She's just had a massive stroke.

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Speaker 2: It's targeted language centers in her brain. She cannot speak

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Speaker 2: to other people or to herself. And what's the emotion

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Speaker 2: relief because all the chatter is gone, all that chatter

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Speaker 2: that was weighing her down. But as the days and

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Speaker 2: weeks went on, she began to describe this experience as

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Speaker 2: quite debilitating, because although the chatter was gone, so were

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Speaker 2: all of the good things that her inner voice allowed

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Speaker 2: her to do, like plan for the future and control

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Speaker 2: herself and create stories and keep things in mind and.

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Speaker 1: So and improve as a person. By the way, like

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Speaker 1: the negative chatter is productive, it's very helpful. It's data

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Speaker 1: to ourselves about how we can become better people, right

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Speaker 1: and take feedback in and work at things.

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Speaker 2: That touches on another I think an important reframe for listeners,

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Speaker 2: which is we often strive to lead lives free of

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Speaker 2: negative emotions, but in fact, all emotions are useful when

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Speaker 2: experienced in small doses. When I experienced a small ping

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Speaker 2: of anxiety before a big presentation, that's really really a

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Speaker 2: useful response, because what it does is it says, hey,

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Speaker 2: you know, start preparing and don't just walk in there

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Speaker 2: and think you could wing it. There have been a

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Speaker 2: few occasions where I haven't experienced any emotion before presentation.

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Speaker 2: Those presentations actually didn't turn out as well as the

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Speaker 2: ones that I was a little bit on edge for.

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Speaker 2: And the same is true for all the negative emotions

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Speaker 2: we experience. What makes them useful is that they are painful.

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Speaker 2: They do draw our attention in you just don't want

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Speaker 2: to bathe in them endlessly. That's when they become counterproductive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so with that in mind, let's get into

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Speaker 1: the kind of the darker sides of this ability. As

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Speaker 1: we've discussed. So much of our lived experience is the

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Speaker 1: thoughts that are happening in our heads, and so it's

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Speaker 1: important for us to learn how to better manage those thoughts, right,

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Speaker 1: to better manage that monologue. And this is especially true

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Speaker 1: because another thing you point out in your book is

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Speaker 1: that our inner voice is more predictive of our happiness

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Speaker 1: than what we're actually doing. And man, is this going

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Speaker 1: to be salient for so many people who are listening,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm on the luxury vacation, I'm on the beach,

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Speaker 1: I'm apposedly having the time of my life, and yet

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Speaker 1: I'm anxious about something that's happening back home, and my

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Speaker 1: mind is not even present and fully sabotages what's otherwise

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Speaker 1: supposed to be a great experience. When does our inner

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Speaker 1: voice become harmful and transform into what you call chatter?

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Speaker 2: So it becomes harmful when we experience something in our

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Speaker 2: life that that cues to try to use this tool

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Speaker 2: that we have to make sense of our feelings, but

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Speaker 2: the tool gets jammed up, so something bad happens. We

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Speaker 2: turn our attention in we'd to try to make sense

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Speaker 2: of the problem, but we get stuck in a negative

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Speaker 2: thought loop. That's what I call chatter. You keep on

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Speaker 2: trying to think and work through the problem, but you

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Speaker 2: don't make any progress. And there are lots of different

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Speaker 2: terms that scientists have used to describe this state. If

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Speaker 2: it's chatter about the past, we tend to call that ruminating.

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Speaker 2: If it's about the future or present, we call that worrying.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes we call it perseverating. But the common idea here

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Speaker 2: is you're trying to make sense of a problem with language,

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Speaker 2: but you're not making any forward progress. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: like the visual is one of a hamster on an

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Speaker 2: exercise wheel.

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Speaker 1: H We fall prey to this illusion when we're actively

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Speaker 1: repeating those loops in our mind that we are actually

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Speaker 1: making progress because just merely indulging in that topic, right,

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Speaker 1: like staying in that space. I think it fools our

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Speaker 1: brains into thinking, ah, I am in fact advancing because

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Speaker 1: look at how much airtime this topic is getting in

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Speaker 1: my mind. And then only maybe hours later, do you realize,

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Speaker 1: oh crap, I'm in exactly the same position that I

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Speaker 1: was in at the beginning. But I've been seduced by

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Speaker 1: that this feeling of oh, you know, I'm gonna be

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Speaker 1: a real resolve it if I just kind of keep

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Speaker 1: it marinating in there, and then without really sophisticated strategies

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Speaker 1: like from cognitive behavioral therapy and whatnot, you know, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: it's not that productive.

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Speaker 2: Well, and think about how much experience you have succeeding

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Speaker 2: in the usage of this tool. Like most of the time,

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Speaker 2: this tool, this ability to use language to think analytically

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Speaker 2: about a problem, it serves you really really will. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is undoubtedly why you have been able to achieve

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Speaker 2: the things that you have accomplished in your life, and

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Speaker 2: the same is true for so many other people. So

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Speaker 2: you've got this tool that often works really really well.

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Speaker 2: It should work here it's not working. I'm not a

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Speaker 2: I don't give up. I'm gonna keep going. And so

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Speaker 2: that's when you really need this ability to step back,

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Speaker 2: if you will, and just recognize weight this approach isn't working.

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Speaker 2: Let me shift perspective or do any number of other

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Speaker 2: things to help reconcile the situation. So, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: something that we all fall victim to at times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can you say more about how that inner monologue

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Speaker 1: can lead us astray in these moments or what the

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Speaker 1: negative consequences can be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, happy to. So when the inner voice morphs into chatter,

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Speaker 2: it sinks us in three domains of life that I

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Speaker 2: think are three domains that we care a lot about

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Speaker 2: and really make life worth living. And that's why I

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Speaker 2: think it's such a huge problem. First, chatter consumes our

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Speaker 2: attention to the point where we have very little left

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Speaker 2: over to focus on other things. And so the example

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Speaker 2: I like to give people is to to think about

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Speaker 2: a time when you're work, worried about something you ruminating,

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Speaker 2: and you sit down, you try to read a couple

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Speaker 2: of pages in a book or a magazine, and you

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Speaker 2: read the pages, you are sure, like under oath, you

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Speaker 2: would swear that the information has past your gaze, but

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Speaker 2: you don't remember anything that you have read. It is

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Speaker 2: an incredibly common experience, and the idea is very very simple.

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Speaker 2: We only have so much attention. If all of it

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Speaker 2: is being consumed by your chatter, that means not much

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Speaker 2: is leftover to do your job. Not a good thing.

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Speaker 2: We also know that chatter can undo our habits, and

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Speaker 2: the way this works is like what is a habit?

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Speaker 2: A habit is a complex set of behaviors that are

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Speaker 2: strung together through repeated practice. So when I get up

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Speaker 2: on stage to give a presentation. I've given hundreds and

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Speaker 2: hundreds of talks. I've learned to do things without thinking,

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Speaker 2: like to move my hands in particular ways and vary

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Speaker 2: my vocal tone and smile and look at different people

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Speaker 2: in the audience. If I start to worry about what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing, oh my god, am I giving a good presentation?

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Speaker 2: What happens is I zoom in on all the individual behaviors.

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Speaker 2: Am I smiling enough?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Am I using the stage appropriately? And once you start

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Speaker 2: doing that, the whole script explodes, the behavior explodes. You

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Speaker 2: don't do well. And we saw this happen on the

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Speaker 2: grandest stage in the Olympics when Simone Biles dropped out

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Speaker 2: because of what she called the twisties. The twisties are

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Speaker 2: another name for chatter. Sometimes they're called the yips. And

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Speaker 2: if you think about Simone's situation, I think it really

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Speaker 2: highlights just how toxic this can be. Here. You have

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Speaker 2: someone who is on the peak. You know, she's at

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Speaker 2: the peak of her career on the grandest stage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she appropriate best in human history as well.

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Speaker 2: Best in human history, and she has to drop out

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Speaker 2: appropriately because it was dangerous and so that's what chatter

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Speaker 2: can do to us when it comes to our individual performance.

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Speaker 2: If we shift to the second domain, we know that

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Speaker 2: chatter undermines our relationships. That can create friction, and there

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Speaker 2: are a couple of ways that works too. One thing

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Speaker 2: that chatter can do is it can push other people

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Speaker 2: who care about us away. And here are the ideas.

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Speaker 2: You've got a problem and you're motivated to share it

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Speaker 2: with other people for a variety of reasons. You want

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Speaker 2: to get support. But what happens is you talk to

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Speaker 2: the other person about the problem, and then you keep

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Speaker 2: talking about it over and over and over again. And

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Speaker 2: for most of us, there's only so much we can

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Speaker 2: listen to before we ourselves start to get brought down.

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Speaker 2: And so that's one of the ways that that chatter

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Speaker 2: can alienate us from others, lead us to feel socially

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Speaker 2: rejected and alone. These are not healthy states. Boy, I'm

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Speaker 2: getting depressed just talking about this maya but let me

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Speaker 2: quickly just mention the final domain, which is our physical health,

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Speaker 2: that I think is really important to highlight. Many people

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Speaker 2: think that experience stress like stress kills This is a

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Speaker 2: very popular idea. It turns out that is not exactly correct.

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Speaker 2: What we know is that the ability to experience a

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Speaker 2: stress response is an amazingly useful biological reaction to a

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Speaker 2: confronting threat. It is really useful to know that if

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Speaker 2: we see a threat in our world, we have a

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Speaker 2: system that is designed to get us to approach or

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Speaker 2: avoid it in a split second. What makes stress toxic

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Speaker 2: is when the stress response goes up and remains chronically

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Speaker 2: elevated over time, over days, over weeks. That's what chatter

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Speaker 2: does because we experience a threat in our world, and

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Speaker 2: then we keep replaying it in our minds, sometimes even

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Speaker 2: making it worse, and that keeps the whole stress machinery

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Speaker 2: going in ways that lead stress to predict things like

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Speaker 2: cardiovascular disease and certain forms of cancer and other unpleasant

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Speaker 2: and physical states to talk about so thinking, performing relationships

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Speaker 2: health Chatter wraps its tentacles around all of those domains,

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Speaker 2: and it's why I think it's one of the big

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Speaker 2: problems we face.

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Speaker 1: I promise hope is on the way. Don't worry. When

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Speaker 1: we return Ethan will give us some science based strategies

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Speaker 1: to help us harness our inner voice. We'll be right

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Speaker 1: back with a slight change of plans. Okay, so we

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Speaker 1: need some hope, Ethan. You got to help us out here,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'd love to do a deep dive in

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Speaker 1: some of the strategies we can use for better managing

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Speaker 1: our chatter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so just to give give everyone a framework for

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Speaker 2: thinking about these tools and also being hopeful for managing

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Speaker 2: their chatter. I want to be super clear, there are

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Speaker 2: lots and lots of tools that exist for managing our chatter,

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Speaker 2: and so like when I think about the potential that

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Speaker 2: is out there, a lot of it. So where do

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Speaker 2: you find these tools? You could think of them as

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Speaker 2: falling into three different domains or buckets. Things you could

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Speaker 2: do on your own, relationship tools, ways of talking or

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Speaker 2: interacting with other people that can be uphull, and then

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Speaker 2: what I call environmental or physical tools out there in

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Speaker 2: the world. If we start with the first category, things

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Speaker 2: you could do on your own, one of the things

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Speaker 2: we know about chatter is it zooms us in on

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Speaker 2: our problems. We get stuck thinking in a very narrow

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Speaker 2: way about only this issue, right, We're not thinking about

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Speaker 2: the bigger picture or alternative ways of making sense of

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Speaker 2: that circumstance. And what we've learned over the years. Is

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Speaker 2: that being able to step back, just take a little

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Speaker 2: step back in your mind, get some psychological distance from

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Speaker 2: your problems can be really useful for broadening our perspective

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Speaker 2: and helping us work through the situation more objectively. One

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Speaker 2: of the findings that my colleagues and I and several

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Speaker 2: years ago, that I always come back to is this

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Speaker 2: we are much much better at giving advice to other

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Speaker 2: people than we are following our own advice. I find

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Speaker 2: this really remarkable. You know a friend or a loved

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Speaker 2: one who is struggling with the same problem that you

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Speaker 2: might have experienced at some point when they come to them.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, just sorry, sorry interrupting. I just want to clarify,

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Speaker 1: because I think, is it about we're better at giving

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Speaker 1: advice to other people than following our owner We're better

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Speaker 1: at giving advice to others than we are at giving

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Speaker 1: advice to ourselves.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say giving advice to others, we're better

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Speaker 2: at doing that than following our own advice.

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Speaker 1: Okay, because it also seems like we sometimes give ourselves

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Speaker 1: bad advice as well when it's the first person thing,

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Speaker 1: because emotions cloud our judgments.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I would say it's probably both actually

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Speaker 2: so we give better. We give ourselves often poorer advice,

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Speaker 2: and we have trouble following the more effective pieces when

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Speaker 2: we think about them. And it's a pretty pervasive phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: And what we've learned is that there are lots of

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Speaker 2: different psychological tools people can use to shift their perspective

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Speaker 2: and get them to think about their problems like they

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Speaker 2: were weighing in on someone else's problems. And when you

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Speaker 2: do that, you often find less chatter, more objective thinking,

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Speaker 2: what we might even call wiser reasoning about about issues

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Speaker 2: that we're facing. I'll tell you about two of my favorites,

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Speaker 2: which also happen to be two tools that I use

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Speaker 2: myself if I experienced shadow. They're my first lines of defense.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: The first one is maybe counterintuitive to folks. What it

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Speaker 2: involves doing is trying to coach yourself through a problem

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Speaker 2: using your own name or the second person pronound you. So,

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Speaker 2: if I'm really upset about something and spinning alread ethan,

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Speaker 2: here's what you're going to do. Here's how you're going

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Speaker 2: to manage the situation. I'm basically talking to myself like

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Speaker 2: I would speak to another person, right, the second person

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Speaker 2: prone on you. This is a part of speech that

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Speaker 2: we almost exclusively use when we think about and refer

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Speaker 2: to other people. That shifts your perspective. It puts you

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Speaker 2: into this different mode of thinking about your problems. It's

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Speaker 2: like you're giving advice to your best friend, and when

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Speaker 2: you're in that mode of advice giving, you come up

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Speaker 2: with much better solutions to your problems. So that's a

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Speaker 2: really simple thing that people can do to switch their perspectives,

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Speaker 2: and that's the first thing that I'll do. Another distancing

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Speaker 2: tool that is really easy and works for many situations

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Speaker 2: is something that we call temporal distancing, or thinking about

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Speaker 2: how you're going to feel about something that's causing you

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Speaker 2: chatter right now. How are you going to feel about

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Speaker 2: this a week from now, or a month from now,

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Speaker 2: or a year from now. You could stretch out the

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Speaker 2: time window as much as you want. What engaging in

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Speaker 2: that little mental time travel exercise does for us is

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Speaker 2: it often makes clear that whatever we're dealing with, as

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Speaker 2: awful as it is, it will eventually fade. Because most

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Speaker 2: of the trials and tribulations we experienced do eventually fade

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Speaker 2: with time, and that gives us hope, which is really useful.

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Speaker 2: For managing chatter. This is actually what I do when

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Speaker 2: I wake up on occasion at two am and and

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Speaker 2: grip it, Oh my god, why did I send that email?

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Speaker 2: And what are they going to think? Did they read?

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Speaker 2: So I will just remind myself, Ethan, You're going to

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Speaker 2: feel better about this in six hours.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say that, and I'm thinking to myself that,

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Speaker 1: in my most anxious moments, if you had asked me,

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Speaker 1: how are you going to feel about this in six

434
00:24:51,396 --> 00:24:53,996
Speaker 1: months or five years or ten years, I would have said,

435
00:24:54,316 --> 00:24:56,956
Speaker 1: I'm going to feel exactly the same damn way, Ethan.

436
00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,236
Speaker 1: And so what's occurring to me in this moment is

437
00:24:59,236 --> 00:25:03,556
Speaker 1: that potentially another healthful thought experiment is to think about

438
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:06,836
Speaker 1: past experiences where we felt a certain way and we're

439
00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:10,076
Speaker 1: absolutely convinced that that was going to be a immutable

440
00:25:10,076 --> 00:25:12,796
Speaker 1: state of the world, but looking back, we now know

441
00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:14,956
Speaker 1: we no longer feel that same way about it today.

442
00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:19,116
Speaker 2: Well, you got me before I could do mental time

443
00:25:19,116 --> 00:25:23,236
Speaker 2: travel the Marty mcflyway in the past completely agree. Right.

444
00:25:23,236 --> 00:25:25,676
Speaker 2: So that's the second piece of it, which is so

445
00:25:25,796 --> 00:25:29,276
Speaker 2: if you think about COVID as a great example of this, right,

446
00:25:29,356 --> 00:25:33,076
Speaker 2: So COVID things are on the whole, I think, getting better.

447
00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:34,636
Speaker 2: But you know, we don't know when the end is

448
00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 2: going to happen, so going into the future is somewhat murky.

449
00:25:38,996 --> 00:25:41,236
Speaker 2: So what we can also do, exactly as you're describing,

450
00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:43,276
Speaker 2: is we can go into the past. And this is

451
00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:44,996
Speaker 2: what I do. This is how I use mental time

452
00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:48,236
Speaker 2: travel for dealing with COVID. I'll think about the Spanish

453
00:25:48,276 --> 00:25:51,196
Speaker 2: flu pandemic of nineteen I think it was nineteen eighteen.

454
00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,756
Speaker 2: That was really bad, and we got through it. Sometimes though,

455
00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:57,476
Speaker 2: that doesn't even take the edge off. So then I'll

456
00:25:57,476 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 2: go back further in time. I'll think about the bubonic

457
00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:04,356
Speaker 2: plague that decimated Europe right like, that was much much

458
00:26:04,356 --> 00:26:06,636
Speaker 2: worse than this, went on for a really long perio,

459
00:26:06,716 --> 00:26:09,436
Speaker 2: but we got through it. We are still standing. So

460
00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:14,076
Speaker 2: that shows you the flexibility through which you can use

461
00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:16,436
Speaker 2: mental time travel to help yourself.

462
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:20,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just remembering how there was this thing that

463
00:26:20,396 --> 00:26:23,076
Speaker 1: I was worrying about in my early twenties, and I

464
00:26:23,156 --> 00:26:26,196
Speaker 1: was imposing a lot of negativity of my brother who

465
00:26:26,236 --> 00:26:28,836
Speaker 1: was on the receiving end of all this anxiety to

466
00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:33,316
Speaker 1: your earlier point, and I remember him saying, I promise

467
00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 1: you this is not going to be a topic you're

468
00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:37,796
Speaker 1: worried about in ten years. And I was absolutely resolute

469
00:26:37,836 --> 00:26:39,676
Speaker 1: in my convictions that it was going to be something

470
00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:43,556
Speaker 1: that I continue to worry about. And you know, older brother,

471
00:26:43,676 --> 00:26:46,316
Speaker 1: wiser than me, he's right. I no longer am worried

472
00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:49,596
Speaker 1: about this issue. And I keep that in my mind

473
00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:54,516
Speaker 1: often as a personal anecdote of how I engaged in

474
00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:58,076
Speaker 1: bad cognitive forecasting. I was wrong about myself and my

475
00:26:58,156 --> 00:27:00,316
Speaker 1: own ability to be able to move on from certain

476
00:27:00,396 --> 00:27:03,796
Speaker 1: challenges or anxieties. And I think it's helpful, potentially helpful

477
00:27:03,796 --> 00:27:06,596
Speaker 1: for listeners to identify, you know, there's the Spanish flu,

478
00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:08,876
Speaker 1: which is like the global thing, but you know, we

479
00:27:08,916 --> 00:27:12,756
Speaker 1: all have some element of narcissism in us that leads

480
00:27:12,836 --> 00:27:15,276
Speaker 1: us to want to know that actually narcissm is the

481
00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:18,356
Speaker 1: wrong word here. I think we can feel sometimes like

482
00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 1: society might be able to deal with this, but I

483
00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:24,396
Speaker 1: maya won't be able to because I'm not as cognitively

484
00:27:24,396 --> 00:27:25,916
Speaker 1: strong as other people. And so I think it can

485
00:27:25,956 --> 00:27:29,516
Speaker 1: be helpful to just find even one instance, one case

486
00:27:29,556 --> 00:27:32,916
Speaker 1: study from your own life where you did actually exit

487
00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,676
Speaker 1: a state of mental chatter successfully and think differently about

488
00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:38,436
Speaker 1: it so that you can hold on to because it

489
00:27:38,436 --> 00:27:40,316
Speaker 1: helps me in present day moments where I'm like, no,

490
00:27:40,356 --> 00:27:41,996
Speaker 1: I'm still gonna be worried about this thing now in

491
00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:44,276
Speaker 1: ten years and I'm like, eh, you're wrong about this.

492
00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:45,356
Speaker 1: At least once.

493
00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:50,236
Speaker 2: You've actually touched on something that is. I think another

494
00:27:50,276 --> 00:27:53,316
Speaker 2: message of hope for listeners, which is there's a lot

495
00:27:53,356 --> 00:27:55,396
Speaker 2: of research which shows that as we get older, we

496
00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:59,356
Speaker 2: actually get happier barring negative health conditions. And one of

497
00:27:59,396 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 2: the explanations for why that happens is we're learning how

498
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,636
Speaker 2: to regulate ourselves better. And part of how that works

499
00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:07,996
Speaker 2: is we're learning from our experiences. And I think this

500
00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:11,076
Speaker 2: is exactly what you've just when you're younger, you don't

501
00:28:11,116 --> 00:28:15,396
Speaker 2: have the same quantity of experiences. You don't know that

502
00:28:15,556 --> 00:28:17,436
Speaker 2: you're not going to be worried about this ten years

503
00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:20,636
Speaker 2: later because you may not have been around for that long.

504
00:28:20,716 --> 00:28:24,436
Speaker 2: And so I think we accrue that wisdom with age.

505
00:28:24,556 --> 00:28:29,036
Speaker 2: And what's exciting about some of these tools is they

506
00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:33,036
Speaker 2: have the potential to give us that insight without having

507
00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:37,396
Speaker 2: to wait to be forty sixty, seventy years old, right,

508
00:28:37,396 --> 00:28:39,196
Speaker 2: so we can have the insight that, oh wait, it

509
00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:42,196
Speaker 2: will get better with time without having to, you know,

510
00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:44,516
Speaker 2: just wait the whole stretch of time for that to happen.

511
00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:48,556
Speaker 2: So it's a really valuable exercise for folks to think about.

512
00:28:50,756 --> 00:28:53,396
Speaker 1: I love this concept of what you call the universal you.

513
00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:56,396
Speaker 1: This is related to the idea of you know, referring

514
00:28:56,436 --> 00:28:59,036
Speaker 1: to ourselves in the third person, but it's slightly different

515
00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,436
Speaker 1: in terms of how it's implemented. So can you just

516
00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:04,516
Speaker 1: share more about the universal you? Yeah?

517
00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:08,276
Speaker 2: I love this research. What we noticed is that sometimes

518
00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:12,156
Speaker 2: when people are trying to make sense of really difficult,

519
00:29:12,236 --> 00:29:14,836
Speaker 2: chatter provoking situations in their life, they do something that

520
00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:19,356
Speaker 2: is very odd linguistically if you actually stop and think

521
00:29:19,356 --> 00:29:24,156
Speaker 2: about it. They talk about their own experiences using the

522
00:29:24,196 --> 00:29:26,876
Speaker 2: word you, but not to refer to another person, but

523
00:29:26,956 --> 00:29:28,916
Speaker 2: to refer to the world in general. So let me

524
00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:32,956
Speaker 2: give you a concrete example. Cheryl Sandberg, as as many

525
00:29:32,996 --> 00:29:37,156
Speaker 2: listeners know, tragically lost her husband while they were on

526
00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,596
Speaker 2: vacation several years ago, and she went in mourning. And

527
00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:43,996
Speaker 2: when she came out of mourning several weeks later after

528
00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:48,076
Speaker 2: the loss, she wrote a really emotional post on her

529
00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,316
Speaker 2: Facebook page, and when she described what she was going through,

530
00:29:50,676 --> 00:29:53,636
Speaker 2: and she said something to the effect of when you

531
00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:56,796
Speaker 2: lose someone you love, you just don't know what to do.

532
00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:00,196
Speaker 2: Your heart jumps out from your skin. The idea was

533
00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:06,476
Speaker 2: she was talking about her own deeply personal experience using

534
00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:11,356
Speaker 2: a word you that is the verbal equivalent of talking

535
00:30:11,396 --> 00:30:15,876
Speaker 2: about the world in general. She's essentially saying, when anyone

536
00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:19,716
Speaker 2: loses their husband, anyone would be devastated, right. And what

537
00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:21,716
Speaker 2: that does for us is that it gives us a

538
00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:25,076
Speaker 2: little bit of distance from our problems, right because it's

539
00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:28,236
Speaker 2: saying it's not just me, this is anyone who's dealing

540
00:30:28,276 --> 00:30:31,556
Speaker 2: with it. And what we've learned through lots of science

541
00:30:31,676 --> 00:30:34,436
Speaker 2: is that this can be an effective tool for helping

542
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:38,236
Speaker 2: people make meaning out of negative experiences. It helps them

543
00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:41,676
Speaker 2: normalize what they're going through, get some space from their experience.

544
00:30:42,116 --> 00:30:45,556
Speaker 2: And it also does something that I just find so cool.

545
00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:51,316
Speaker 2: It draws other people into our world. Because if I'm

546
00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:55,916
Speaker 2: saying anyone and everyone would experience, guess what, you, the

547
00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,996
Speaker 2: person I'm speaking to, you are part of anyone and everyone.

548
00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:04,076
Speaker 2: So it enhances the resonance that people have, people who

549
00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:08,476
Speaker 2: are listening with our ideas and is really a useful

550
00:31:08,476 --> 00:31:09,676
Speaker 2: tool in all of those ways.

551
00:31:09,836 --> 00:31:13,396
Speaker 1: Oh I love that. Yeah, I love how inclusive the

552
00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:18,476
Speaker 1: language is. You're participating with the person who's in distress,

553
00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:20,516
Speaker 1: let's say, because you can empathize with them, and you're

554
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:23,156
Speaker 1: also like, hey, I probably have a few lessons I

555
00:31:23,156 --> 00:31:25,396
Speaker 1: can learn from this, because it might just be a

556
00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:28,516
Speaker 1: matter of time before a similar situation hits my life

557
00:31:28,636 --> 00:31:32,316
Speaker 1: or strikes me totally. So I think that leads to

558
00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:36,036
Speaker 1: your next kind of pillar right of strategies, and that

559
00:31:36,156 --> 00:31:41,116
Speaker 1: is around relationships and how we can engage with others

560
00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:43,996
Speaker 1: when we're in the middle of the angst of mental chatter.

561
00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:50,156
Speaker 2: Yeah. So other people are an incredible potential tool that

562
00:31:50,196 --> 00:31:52,556
Speaker 2: we have at our disposal for helping us manage our chatter,

563
00:31:53,036 --> 00:31:55,516
Speaker 2: but they can also be a huge liability. And this

564
00:31:55,636 --> 00:31:58,316
Speaker 2: is why I really like talking about the science that

565
00:31:58,796 --> 00:32:01,636
Speaker 2: governs how all this works, because what we know about

566
00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:04,676
Speaker 2: chatter is that, with a few exceptions, you know, if

567
00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:08,316
Speaker 2: you're experiencing chatter about shame or certain forms of trauma,

568
00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,036
Speaker 2: you're not going to be that motivated usually to talk

569
00:32:11,036 --> 00:32:12,596
Speaker 2: about it with other people. But for all the other

570
00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:16,276
Speaker 2: kinds of chatter that we experience, chatter about anger and

571
00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:20,516
Speaker 2: anxiety and depression, we're often highly motivated to talk to

572
00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:24,356
Speaker 2: other people about it. But many people think that the

573
00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:27,956
Speaker 2: route to getting good support from other people is to

574
00:32:27,996 --> 00:32:31,156
Speaker 2: just find someone to vent our emotions, to just let

575
00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:33,876
Speaker 2: it out, express on load. And there's been a lot

576
00:32:33,916 --> 00:32:36,036
Speaker 2: of research on venting over the years, and what we

577
00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:39,956
Speaker 2: know is that, on the one hand, venting can be

578
00:32:40,076 --> 00:32:44,916
Speaker 2: useful for strengthening the friendship bonds between two individuals. It

579
00:32:44,956 --> 00:32:46,996
Speaker 2: feels good to know that there's someone out there who

580
00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:49,916
Speaker 2: who is willing to take the time to listen to

581
00:32:50,036 --> 00:32:53,396
Speaker 2: us and spend time learning about our lives. But if

582
00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:57,156
Speaker 2: all you do is vent about a problem, it just

583
00:32:57,276 --> 00:33:01,436
Speaker 2: keeps the fire burning inside because you're just rehearsing all

584
00:33:01,476 --> 00:33:04,596
Speaker 2: of the things that are driving you nuts. The key

585
00:33:04,676 --> 00:33:07,956
Speaker 2: to getting good support for a chatter involves doing two things.

586
00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 2: A person who will take the time to hear you out,

587
00:33:13,156 --> 00:33:16,796
Speaker 2: to learn about your situation, to empathize, but at a

588
00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:21,556
Speaker 2: certain point in the conversation they start trying to help

589
00:33:21,636 --> 00:33:24,876
Speaker 2: you broaden your perspective. Right to do what we just

590
00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,196
Speaker 2: talked about. We're capable of doing it on our own,

591
00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:29,796
Speaker 2: broadening our perspective, but other people are often in a

592
00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:33,516
Speaker 2: prime position to help us see that bigger picture because

593
00:33:33,636 --> 00:33:36,796
Speaker 2: the problem's not happening to them. That's the formula for

594
00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:40,956
Speaker 2: getting good chatter support. Someone who listens, connects, but then

595
00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:45,516
Speaker 2: helps broaden. Now, there is one critically important caveat to

596
00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:49,316
Speaker 2: this whole equation, which is there is an art to

597
00:33:49,396 --> 00:33:52,076
Speaker 2: doing this well. And the reason I say there's an

598
00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:54,596
Speaker 2: art to doing this well is depending on the person

599
00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:59,276
Speaker 2: and the situation, it's not always clear when to transition

600
00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:03,916
Speaker 2: from just listening to to start providing advice. And so

601
00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:07,276
Speaker 2: sometimes sometimes my wife will come to me with a

602
00:34:07,396 --> 00:34:12,916
Speaker 2: problem and you know, she'll start unloading and I'm there,

603
00:34:13,116 --> 00:34:16,676
Speaker 2: I'm receptive, I'm empathic, and then a certain point this

604
00:34:16,796 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 2: sounds off. I totally get it. Can I have a

605
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:23,396
Speaker 2: piece of advice? Can I offer you? And sometimes she'll

606
00:34:23,476 --> 00:34:28,436
Speaker 2: just you know, pause and say no, I'm not done,

607
00:34:28,596 --> 00:34:31,756
Speaker 2: Ye just listen, and then she keeps going and going

608
00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:35,556
Speaker 2: and it's okay. At other times she'll be like, yes,

609
00:34:35,836 --> 00:34:38,596
Speaker 2: please tell me, tell me what to do. That's why

610
00:34:38,596 --> 00:34:41,596
Speaker 2: I'm talking. So you want to be gentle as you

611
00:34:41,716 --> 00:34:44,316
Speaker 2: as you feel that out. That is the art involved

612
00:34:44,356 --> 00:34:44,756
Speaker 2: in all of this.

613
00:34:45,596 --> 00:34:49,836
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I relish this part of your book because

614
00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:54,196
Speaker 1: I think we are living in a time where everyone

615
00:34:54,276 --> 00:34:58,516
Speaker 1: is being encouraged to vocalize all of the things that

616
00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:00,676
Speaker 1: are happening in their minds. Right, it's like, oh, that's

617
00:35:00,756 --> 00:35:04,236
Speaker 1: that's the definition of vulnerability. You know, that's the but

618
00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:07,436
Speaker 1: but pointing out that it can be counterproductive and pointing

619
00:35:07,476 --> 00:35:11,276
Speaker 1: out that when you come to someone and you're venting

620
00:35:11,356 --> 00:35:13,516
Speaker 1: to them, and you know, you presume in the situation

621
00:35:13,596 --> 00:35:16,236
Speaker 1: the person cares about you, they will be more focused

622
00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:21,196
Speaker 1: on satisfying your emotional needs first and your cognitive needs second. Right,

623
00:35:21,276 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 1: the practical solutions side of things that will actually lead

624
00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:29,676
Speaker 1: to long term growth and mental progress. You know, you

625
00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:31,996
Speaker 1: and I are familiar with cognitive behavioral therapy and some

626
00:35:32,036 --> 00:35:33,756
Speaker 1: of the techniques. But I want to give some color

627
00:35:34,076 --> 00:35:36,476
Speaker 1: to what it means to go from emotional We all

628
00:35:36,516 --> 00:35:38,996
Speaker 1: know what emotional mode feels like. That is very intuitive.

629
00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:41,116
Speaker 1: What does cognitive mode feel like.

630
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:46,156
Speaker 2: Cognitive mode is broadening your perspective. Let's put this in context.

631
00:35:46,236 --> 00:35:50,076
Speaker 2: Let's think about the bigger picture. Cognitive mode is sharing

632
00:35:51,276 --> 00:35:56,116
Speaker 2: information that can be useful for helping the person deal

633
00:35:56,156 --> 00:35:59,996
Speaker 2: with the problem. I had like instrumental information, So hey,

634
00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:03,716
Speaker 2: I was in this situation exactly, this situation and here's

635
00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:07,716
Speaker 2: how I dealt with it. Cognitive mode is pointing out

636
00:36:07,756 --> 00:36:12,276
Speaker 2: sometimes the blind spot that may exist that are governing

637
00:36:12,716 --> 00:36:15,756
Speaker 2: people's emotion reactions. But it is important you want to

638
00:36:15,796 --> 00:36:18,156
Speaker 2: strike the balance right If you just so, what are

639
00:36:18,156 --> 00:36:21,516
Speaker 2: the hazards? What if we just skipped emotion mode altogether,

640
00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:25,116
Speaker 2: that often comes across as patronizing and uncaring, and so

641
00:36:25,196 --> 00:36:28,396
Speaker 2: you want to strike that appropriate, that appropriate balance. So

642
00:36:28,556 --> 00:36:32,476
Speaker 2: what I love about this science is there's like a

643
00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:36,436
Speaker 2: double whammy benefit it provides people. On the one hand,

644
00:36:36,516 --> 00:36:40,276
Speaker 2: knowing about how this works, it allows people to be

645
00:36:40,436 --> 00:36:44,436
Speaker 2: much more deliberate about who they call when they're struggling

646
00:36:44,476 --> 00:36:47,756
Speaker 2: with chatter. So there are many people who I'm really

647
00:36:47,756 --> 00:36:50,756
Speaker 2: really close to, I'm related to some of them, I

648
00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:53,996
Speaker 2: don't call them about my chatter. There's no ill intention

649
00:36:54,076 --> 00:36:57,116
Speaker 2: on their part, but they're just not skilled at helping

650
00:36:57,156 --> 00:37:00,636
Speaker 2: me shift from emotion to cognitive mode. There are a

651
00:37:00,636 --> 00:37:02,516
Speaker 2: couple of people I know who are good at this.

652
00:37:03,156 --> 00:37:06,036
Speaker 2: And you know what I've experienced happening in my own

653
00:37:06,076 --> 00:37:08,996
Speaker 2: life with this little board that I've put together is

654
00:37:10,156 --> 00:37:12,756
Speaker 2: people know when they're on that board and they actually

655
00:37:12,836 --> 00:37:15,356
Speaker 2: value it like they feel privileged, not because it's like, oh,

656
00:37:15,356 --> 00:37:17,356
Speaker 2: you can put you on the way. It's actually what

657
00:37:17,436 --> 00:37:21,796
Speaker 2: it's communicating is that I really value you as a

658
00:37:21,796 --> 00:37:26,756
Speaker 2: friend and life advisor. That's who I rely on and

659
00:37:26,796 --> 00:37:29,996
Speaker 2: it's really effective. So that's one benefit. The other benefit

660
00:37:30,156 --> 00:37:35,596
Speaker 2: is when someone comes to me with their chatter, I've

661
00:37:35,596 --> 00:37:38,396
Speaker 2: got a playbook. I know what to do to help

662
00:37:38,516 --> 00:37:43,036
Speaker 2: effectively coach them through that situation. And so it's useful

663
00:37:43,076 --> 00:37:44,156
Speaker 2: on both sides of the equation.

664
00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:48,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's striking me in this moment is that we

665
00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:50,556
Speaker 1: can do a service to the people that we choose

666
00:37:50,596 --> 00:37:53,636
Speaker 1: to vent to by giving, by almost engaging in a

667
00:37:53,636 --> 00:37:55,636
Speaker 1: pre commitment of sorts, which is at the outset of

668
00:37:55,636 --> 00:38:00,036
Speaker 1: the conversation, say I'm really upset about this situation, and

669
00:38:00,076 --> 00:38:01,556
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you all about it, but I

670
00:38:01,596 --> 00:38:04,036
Speaker 1: want you to know I really do want some reframing

671
00:38:04,076 --> 00:38:06,996
Speaker 1: strategies so I can think differently about the situation. And

672
00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:11,436
Speaker 1: this serves two benefits, right. One, it's signaling to the

673
00:38:11,476 --> 00:38:14,596
Speaker 1: person that you're engaging with, maybe who you're training to

674
00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:17,836
Speaker 1: enter that board of advisors, to know that is appropriate

675
00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:20,916
Speaker 1: at some point to make that pivot, and before you

676
00:38:20,956 --> 00:38:22,396
Speaker 1: get too into the heat of the moment as you're

677
00:38:22,436 --> 00:38:25,876
Speaker 1: replaying the negative episode, you're mentally committing to the fact

678
00:38:25,916 --> 00:38:29,116
Speaker 1: that you do want to leave the conversation with some

679
00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:32,596
Speaker 1: degree of enlightenment about your situation in terms of you know,

680
00:38:32,636 --> 00:38:37,236
Speaker 1: bigger picture, broad contexts, maybe things that you misinterpreted totally.

681
00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:41,796
Speaker 1: All right, So let's let's move into the environment and

682
00:38:42,116 --> 00:38:46,716
Speaker 1: these these seemingly subtle aspects of our environment that can

683
00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:49,716
Speaker 1: actually have a profound impact on the mental chatter.

684
00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:53,236
Speaker 2: Sure. So one of the things we've learned over the

685
00:38:53,316 --> 00:38:57,876
Speaker 2: years is that nature or exposing ourselves to green spaces,

686
00:38:58,076 --> 00:39:00,836
Speaker 2: can provide us with a tool to manage our chatter.

687
00:39:01,036 --> 00:39:04,076
Speaker 2: And I love this work and it's actually it's changed

688
00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:07,396
Speaker 2: the way I live my life. And this does not

689
00:39:07,436 --> 00:39:10,196
Speaker 2: mean I've like, you know, become one with nature.

690
00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:12,516
Speaker 1: For those who can't see him, Ethan's actually taking this

691
00:39:12,596 --> 00:39:15,676
Speaker 1: interview from the jungle, but it's excellent audio quality, right,

692
00:39:15,836 --> 00:39:16,236
Speaker 1: that's right.

693
00:39:16,436 --> 00:39:20,916
Speaker 2: So the way this research has changed my life is

694
00:39:20,956 --> 00:39:23,876
Speaker 2: I actually go to work a different way each day.

695
00:39:23,916 --> 00:39:27,316
Speaker 2: I take a slightly longer walk to work, which is

696
00:39:27,476 --> 00:39:29,916
Speaker 2: a walk down a tree lined path rather than a

697
00:39:29,996 --> 00:39:32,596
Speaker 2: walk down the streets of ann Arbor. And the reason

698
00:39:32,636 --> 00:39:34,276
Speaker 2: I do This is what we know about nature is

699
00:39:34,276 --> 00:39:40,356
Speaker 2: this nature provides an opportunity to restore that precious attention

700
00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:44,116
Speaker 2: we have that our chatter depletes. And the way this

701
00:39:44,236 --> 00:39:46,316
Speaker 2: works is when you're going for a walk in a

702
00:39:46,436 --> 00:39:49,716
Speaker 2: natural setting, there are all these interesting things around us

703
00:39:49,716 --> 00:39:54,076
Speaker 2: that we become fascinated by, so our attention gently drifts

704
00:39:54,116 --> 00:39:57,756
Speaker 2: on those surroundings. And when it's gently drifts and is

705
00:39:57,796 --> 00:40:02,956
Speaker 2: captured by our surroundings, that allows our attentional resources to restore,

706
00:40:03,556 --> 00:40:07,316
Speaker 2: and they often can be really useful for managing our chatter.

707
00:40:07,396 --> 00:40:09,676
Speaker 2: So that's one way it helps the The other thing

708
00:40:09,756 --> 00:40:14,916
Speaker 2: that nature does is something that I find just beautiful,

709
00:40:15,316 --> 00:40:19,756
Speaker 2: which is nature gives us the opportunity to experience the

710
00:40:19,796 --> 00:40:23,956
Speaker 2: emotion of awe. And awe is an emotion we experience

711
00:40:23,956 --> 00:40:26,836
Speaker 2: when we're in the presence of something vast and indescribable,

712
00:40:27,276 --> 00:40:30,796
Speaker 2: like a beautiful sunset, or you know, I go for

713
00:40:30,836 --> 00:40:32,596
Speaker 2: the walk in the arboretum right by my house and

714
00:40:32,636 --> 00:40:35,156
Speaker 2: I see these trees that have been here for literally

715
00:40:35,356 --> 00:40:39,036
Speaker 2: hundreds of years, and I think, how do I even contemplate,

716
00:40:39,076 --> 00:40:42,076
Speaker 2: Like I'm just struggling to get through my forties, you know,

717
00:40:42,236 --> 00:40:46,596
Speaker 2: pandemic and back aches, and hundreds of years these trees

718
00:40:46,636 --> 00:40:49,956
Speaker 2: have survived. That fills me with awe. When you are

719
00:40:49,956 --> 00:40:55,116
Speaker 2: contemplating something vast and indescribable, you feel smaller by comparison,

720
00:40:55,156 --> 00:40:58,556
Speaker 2: and when you feel smaller, so do your worries and rumination.

721
00:40:58,796 --> 00:41:02,876
Speaker 2: So AWE is this powerful experience that really is In

722
00:41:02,916 --> 00:41:06,076
Speaker 2: some ways, it's like the ultimate perspective broadener, the way

723
00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:10,956
Speaker 2: of putting ourselves in where a speck in this much broader,

724
00:41:11,396 --> 00:41:14,716
Speaker 2: beautiful universe that is out there. There's so many different

725
00:41:14,716 --> 00:41:17,476
Speaker 2: ways that you can get a healthy amount of distance

726
00:41:17,476 --> 00:41:21,916
Speaker 2: from your problems, and drawing on that set of skills

727
00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:25,716
Speaker 2: I think can be helpful for allowing people to skillfully

728
00:41:25,716 --> 00:41:26,436
Speaker 2: manage her chatter.

729
00:41:53,836 --> 00:41:56,556
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive

730
00:41:56,556 --> 00:42:00,156
Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes

731
00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:03,996
Speaker 1: Tyler Green our senior producer, Emily Rosstek, our producer and

732
00:42:04,036 --> 00:42:07,956
Speaker 1: fact checker, Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our

733
00:42:07,996 --> 00:42:12,516
Speaker 1: sound engineer, and Neil LaBelle our executive producer. Louis Scara

734
00:42:12,596 --> 00:42:15,596
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

735
00:42:16,316 --> 00:42:18,556
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin

736
00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:22,636
Speaker 1: Industries so big thanks to everyone there, including Nicole Morano,

737
00:42:22,836 --> 00:42:27,316
Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, Heather Faint, and Carly mcgliori, and

738
00:42:27,396 --> 00:42:30,956
Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You

739
00:42:30,996 --> 00:42:33,516
Speaker 1: can follow a slight change of plans on Instagram at

740
00:42:33,516 --> 00:42:34,596
Speaker 1: doctor Maiah Schunker.

741
00:42:50,156 --> 00:42:52,716
Speaker 2: I could have a person come to me and say, Hey,

742
00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:55,916
Speaker 2: I experienced chatter here. What should I do? Tell me

743
00:42:55,996 --> 00:42:58,796
Speaker 2: exactly which tools to use and to what degree I

744
00:42:58,796 --> 00:43:03,356
Speaker 2: should be using them. I cannot give that prescription. You know,

745
00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:06,396
Speaker 2: the six tools that I use to manage my chatter

746
00:43:06,476 --> 00:43:09,996
Speaker 2: may be very different from the seventeen that you use.

747
00:43:10,556 --> 00:43:13,356
Speaker 1: Or or the flat Okay, I see how you feel.

748
00:43:13,356 --> 00:43:17,596
Speaker 1: Even my chatter can run laps around your chatter, okay,

749
00:43:17,596 --> 00:43:18,396
Speaker 1: And I'm proud of that