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Speaker 1: Coming up on you Need Therapy.

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Speaker 2: We tend to internalize things as true even when they

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Speaker 2: are totally implausible, and we really really know deep down

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Speaker 2: that they couldn't be true when we've heard them multiple times,

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Speaker 2: when they rhyme, when they're written in like legible, aesthetically

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Speaker 2: pleasing fonts. These are things that make us feel like

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Speaker 2: something is true because they activate processing fluency.

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Speaker 3: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 3: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 4: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 4: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought

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Speaker 4: I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know what to

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Speaker 4: do because there was no internet. I don't know, man,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I feel like everything is hard.

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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat.

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Speaker 3: I'm a human first and a licensed therapist second, and

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Speaker 3: right now inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage

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Speaker 3: you to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 3: and the world around you. Welcome to you need Therapy. Hi,

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Speaker 3: guys and Welcome to a new episode of You Need

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Speaker 3: Therapy podcast. My name is Kat I am the host,

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Speaker 3: and quick reminder before we get into today's episode that

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Speaker 3: although I'm a therapist in this podcast is called You

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Speaker 3: Need Therapy, it does not serve as a replacement or

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Speaker 3: reminder for any actual mental health services.

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Speaker 1: However, we always hope that.

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Speaker 3: It can be helpful wherever you are, and today is

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Speaker 3: one of those episodes that I think is going to

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Speaker 3: be helpful wherever you are. I am so excited for

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Speaker 3: you guys to listen to this conversation. I was so

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Speaker 3: excited to have this conversation because it is with somebody

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Speaker 3: that you probably have heard me mention a time or

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Speaker 3: ten on here. Her name is Amanda Montel and she

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Speaker 3: is the author of the book Cultish, which I have

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Speaker 3: talked about multiple times on this podcast. She is the

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Speaker 3: host of the podcast Sounds Like a Cult. She's also

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Speaker 3: coming out with a new podcast very soon. And she

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Speaker 3: is the author of the new book The Age of

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Speaker 3: Magical Overthinking And oh my gosh, this book is so

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Speaker 3: full of so much.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is equal.

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Speaker 3: Parts informational, educational, thought provoking, and entertaining. She writes in

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Speaker 3: a way that really allows you to investigate what's going

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Speaker 3: on with yourself as you're investigating with what's going on

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Speaker 3: with the world at the same time. And it was

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Speaker 3: such an interesting and fun book for me to go through,

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Speaker 3: and I'm going to continue to go through it because

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Speaker 3: I feel like I can reread this one about fifteen

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Speaker 3: times and gain something new every time. But she's just

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Speaker 3: a wealth of knowledge and information. And we also talk

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Speaker 3: together at.

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Speaker 1: The same time.

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Speaker 3: How even when we are wealth of knowledge and information,

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Speaker 3: we have our limits and it's important to note that.

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Speaker 3: But she's wonderful. I'm so excited for you to hear

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Speaker 3: this conversation and for you to learn some of the

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Speaker 3: stuff that I have been learning from her while reading

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Speaker 3: this book. Out any more of me fangirling over this

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Speaker 3: author and our guest today.

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Speaker 1: Here is my conversation with Amanda at Montel.

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Speaker 3: So to start, I thought it would be good for

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Speaker 3: some of our listeners just to hear who you are,

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Speaker 3: which most of them know who you are because I

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Speaker 3: talk about Cultish all the time.

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Speaker 4: Of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'm Amanda Montel and I wrote a book

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Speaker 2: called word Slut, which is about language and gender, and

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Speaker 2: then I wrote a book about the language of cults from.

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Speaker 4: Scientology to soul cycle called Cultish.

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Speaker 2: And then I just published my third book, my favorite

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Speaker 2: of the Budge, but I think I say that every time.

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Speaker 4: It's called The Age.

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Speaker 2: Of Magical Overthinking, notes on modern irationality, and it is

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Speaker 2: about cognitive biases in the information age digital age delulu

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Speaker 2: in various forms. So every chapter of the book is

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Speaker 2: dedicated to a different cognitive bias. Some of them are

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Speaker 2: pretty well known, like confirmation bias or some cost fallacy,

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Speaker 2: and then others have these cool names like the Halo

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Speaker 2: effect or the Ikea effect, and I use each one

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Speaker 2: as a lens to explore some mysterious irrationality from the

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Speaker 2: broader zeitgeist and my own life. So I talk about

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Speaker 2: cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement. I talk about Instagram

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Speaker 2: manifestation gurus. I talk about my own experience in a

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Speaker 2: sort of cult like cult of one romantic relationship, and

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Speaker 2: some other irrational choices that I've made in my life.

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Speaker 2: And I also host a podcast called Sounds Like a Cult,

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Speaker 2: and I'm launching a new podcast called Magical Overthinkers in May.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for that.

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Speaker 3: So I started listening to sounds like a cult after

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Speaker 3: I read Cultish and I listened to that book on audio,

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Speaker 3: and then I bought the book, so I could, you know,

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Speaker 3: highlight and write things and all that. But when I

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Speaker 3: listen to the episode, and I want to say it

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Speaker 3: was like an early on episode. It was about Instagram

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Speaker 3: therapists or social media therapists, which I am a therapist,

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Speaker 3: and it has been like three years of excruciating back

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Speaker 3: and forth. What am I doing? Can I be on

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Speaker 3: social media? Can I have a podcast? What are the limits?

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Speaker 3: Am I doing what those other people are doing? Am

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Speaker 3: I part of the problem? Am I part of the slute?

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's been insanity. And so when I listened

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Speaker 3: to that episode, part of it was listening listening to

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Speaker 3: cultician reading that.

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Speaker 1: But when I listened to that episode, I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: First of all, I'm not crazy, and there are other

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Speaker 3: people that are seeing what I'm seeing because from my

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Speaker 3: perspective as a therapist who is on social media but

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Speaker 3: doesn't have like this viral following, I've had one thin

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Speaker 3: go viral one time and I didn't even mean it

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Speaker 3: to be. I forgot that I put it up and

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Speaker 3: I said never again, it's not worth it.

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Speaker 2: I did an interview recently with the newsletter Embedded, which

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Speaker 2: is run and written by a fantastic.

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Speaker 4: Journalist who writes about the Internet named Kate Lindsay.

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Speaker 2: And one of the questions in this interview Q and

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Speaker 2: A have you ever gone viral? And personally no, there

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Speaker 2: was one sounds like a cult reels and to your point, like,

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Speaker 2: you never think the things that go viral would be

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Speaker 2: the things that go viral.

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Speaker 4: They're always just like the most.

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Speaker 2: Innocuous, like silliest, most last minute things. But it was

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Speaker 2: some video where it was just pulled from It sounds

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Speaker 2: like a cult recording where we were roasting the cult

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Speaker 2: of the Kardashians and it was like this silly little moment.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even notice it had.

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Speaker 2: Gone viral until months later, thank god, because I think

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Speaker 2: it would have stressed me out. But when a video

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Speaker 2: starts to get more views than I expected, I start

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Speaker 2: to feel paranoid. I don't know about you, but I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, who is this reaching and why and who

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Speaker 2: is gonna take this out of context?

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Speaker 4: Like it is not It's not fun to like be

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Speaker 4: perceived that way.

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Speaker 3: So this is so interesting because it plays into like

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Speaker 3: a lot of the things that I didn't think. I

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Speaker 3: was initially gonna ask you about this certain vice. I

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Speaker 3: think this is going to go into. But I am

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Speaker 3: because the video that went viral was just a fun

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Speaker 3: video that I made, like sitting on my couch with

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Speaker 3: my roommate. At the time, I didn't really know how

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Speaker 3: to work TikTok. I don't think I had any followers.

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Speaker 3: We were joking about like all of the things that

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Speaker 3: people are willing to do except go to therapy, And

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Speaker 3: it was partly like a joke, and part of it

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Speaker 3: was probably like my passive aggressive nature of being like,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, Like crystals aren't going to heal your trauma,

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Speaker 3: they can be helpful. I guess I don't really understand

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Speaker 3: what the science is there, but I put things like

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Speaker 3: all over the range, like it was like tearo cards

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Speaker 3: and buying self help books, exercise, certain foods, dating. I

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Speaker 3: think I had some like incense burning or crystals, just

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Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff, which leads into the manifestation

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Speaker 3: stuff that you talk about. Yeah, but when I tell

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Speaker 3: you there were people coming after me telling me they're

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Speaker 3: gonna put spells on me. How First of all, how

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Speaker 3: dare I. I'm privileged and I get where some of

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Speaker 3: that was coming from. But the backlash from like the

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Speaker 3: Manifestation community, Oh, I know, it's like, I want to

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Speaker 3: be on your team, I don't want to be against

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Speaker 3: you the same At the same time, it brings up

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Speaker 3: this bigger conversation of I think there can be room

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Speaker 3: for all kinds of things, and different things are going

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Speaker 3: to work for different people. But one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: that I have had this frustration, or you could call

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Speaker 3: it cognitive dissonance, around being on social media and creating

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Speaker 3: a platform where people can get information where they otherwise

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to afford it or wouldn't feel safe

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Speaker 3: to find it, or even just I want to dip

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Speaker 3: a toe in this before I jump into therapy. Then

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Speaker 3: turns into okay, well, am I spreading the things that

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Speaker 3: get taken out of context that bother me and make my.

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Speaker 1: Job really hard?

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Speaker 3: Or am I you called them like explainer grams? Am

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Speaker 3: I part of that problem? Or am I getting frustrated

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Speaker 3: with these people because they.

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Speaker 1: Are more successful than me? Or what have you?

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's been a lot of digging, but I

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Speaker 3: think that's somewhere where we can start, because when I

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Speaker 3: was reading your chapter about the halo effect, which is

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Speaker 3: so timely with the Taylor Swift stuff, I don't know

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Speaker 3: that if you could have planned that any better, you

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Speaker 3: probably wasn't even planned.

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Speaker 4: It was not even planned.

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Speaker 2: But she comes out with an album frequently enough like

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Speaker 2: it'll work out. Yeah, the odds of writing about Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift at the very time that she's putting out an

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Speaker 2: album are pretty high.

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Speaker 3: So I opened the book and I was reading that

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Speaker 3: chapter At first when you started talking about certain things,

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Speaker 3: I felt like I was going to be understood from like,

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Speaker 3: it's not me, it's them. H You're like and and

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Speaker 3: then I started reading that chapter and I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I'm putting my expectations for what a therapist should be,

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Speaker 3: what a helper should be, what a good person should

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Speaker 3: be on these people, and I have to take accountability

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Speaker 3: for my part in that. So can you explain what

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Speaker 3: the halo effect is for any people that are like,

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Speaker 3: what are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: It's so funny, like my way into talking about this

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Speaker 2: book ends it being totally different every interview that I do,

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Speaker 2: because the contents of this book really are just like

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Speaker 2: my reckoning with my own irrational choices and my own

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Speaker 2: judgments and shame of myself and other people. And it

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Speaker 2: was really fun to open with this chapter on the

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Speaker 2: halo effect, because observing cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement

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Speaker 2: is something that like anybody with a digital device has seen,

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Speaker 2: you know, and being able to sort of like parse

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Speaker 2: through why, like there's so much hallucinatory brutality surrounding celebrities

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Speaker 2: that feels very current, like it doesn't it feels unique

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Speaker 2: to right now. Being able to parse through, parse through

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Speaker 2: those ideas from a behavioral egonomic standpoint was really cool.

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Speaker 2: So the halo effect describes this tendency to admire one

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Speaker 2: quality and a part and jump to the conclusion that

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Speaker 2: they must be perfect overall. So we enjoy a pop

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Speaker 2: stars music, we jump to the conclusion that they must

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Speaker 2: be nurturing, worldly that they align politically with us. Say

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Speaker 2: we enjoy an influencer sense of style, we might assume

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Speaker 2: that they are educated, updated on current events as much

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Speaker 2: as they're updated on their style trends. And this is

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Speaker 2: not necessarily a rational thing, like there is little to

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Speaker 2: no evidence to suggest that your favorite pop star would

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Speaker 2: align politically with you, But this bias is it stems

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Speaker 2: from generations of habit forming behavior where we used to

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Speaker 2: use the halo effect to fine role models. You know,

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Speaker 2: you can imagine a time in human history where you

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Speaker 2: would clock someone in your community with big muscles and

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Speaker 2: intact teeth, and you would think, like, oh, that person

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Speaker 2: must be a good hunter or a skilled fighter who's

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Speaker 2: avoided disfigurement from battle. You know, that would be a

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Speaker 2: good person to align myself with for survival purposes, even

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Speaker 2: though there might not have been like the perfect amount

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Speaker 2: of data to suggest that it was a good enough

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Speaker 2: conclusion to jump to. We are now mapping this halo

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Speaker 2: effect onto modern parasocial relationships with celebrities that have nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with survival and have very much to do

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Speaker 2: with these more abstract and cerebral concepts of identity and values.

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Speaker 2: And it relates back to the cult stuff too, because

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Speaker 2: I think living in you know, contemporary society, a lot

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Speaker 2: of us confront a great deal of choosers. Paradox, we

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Speaker 2: you know, feel overwhelmed by the amount of information that

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Speaker 2: we are tasked to contend with every single day, the

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Speaker 2: amount of identities that we're tasked to compare ourselves to

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Speaker 2: there's at least the illusion of like limitless directions for

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Speaker 2: our lives to go in, like who should I be,

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Speaker 2: what should I wear?

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Speaker 4: Like what should my hair color be?

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Speaker 2: And being able to worship a celebrity like Beyonce or

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift as a kind of mother figure in a

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Speaker 2: way that sort of parental I fear that you might

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Speaker 2: have admired before the Internet and now we've sort of

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Speaker 2: turned to celebrities as a new kind of role model

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Speaker 2: or paragon. Being able to look to that celebrity not

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Speaker 2: just for entertainment but as a sort of savior can

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Speaker 2: feel really healing until those grandiose expectations for who they

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Speaker 2: are end up not coming to fruition and they do

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Speaker 2: something to disappoint us, and that can feel like a

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Speaker 2: real violation. So I think that can apply not just

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Speaker 2: to you know, mainstream celebrities that you might hear on

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Speaker 2: the radio or see on TV, but these microelebrities that

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Speaker 2: you would only interact with on social media.

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Speaker 3: I think that one is huge too, because even with

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Speaker 3: these like smaller micro influencers, if they don't show up.

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Speaker 1: I've heard people talking about like, Oh, I met.

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Speaker 3: Her in real life and she was this way, or

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Speaker 3: she was that way, or she had no social skills,

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Speaker 3: or I saw her doing that, and I'm like, oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, well she's probably not used to having people

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Speaker 3: stare at her or follow her around and ask her

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Speaker 3: to take her picture. And I can speak to that that, Like,

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Speaker 3: I am somebody who is very I would never come

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Speaker 3: myself a micro influencer, but I'm somebody who is very

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Speaker 3: introverted when it comes to certain social situations. But I

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Speaker 3: appear very extroverted. I think when I'm talking about the

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Speaker 3: things that I know, and when I'm a therapist and

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Speaker 3: I can get in front of somebody and maybe a

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Speaker 3: classroom and.

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Speaker 1: Talk about X, y Z.

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Speaker 3: But if you see me at a party and you

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Speaker 3: want to have small talk and like where do we

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Speaker 3: go to next? And so it's like, well, I thought

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Speaker 3: you were this way, and so that is dangerous. But

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Speaker 3: I guess I'm curious about your perception on where we

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Speaker 3: draw the line between our responsibility for how we put

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Speaker 3: those expectations on people and then also the kind of

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Speaker 3: like manipulative way that some people.

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Speaker 1: Do use social media.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I got in a heated argument discussion not

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Speaker 3: argument about Jay Shetty recently and you don't have to

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Speaker 3: give your personal opinion on him. This was before that

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Speaker 3: whole art came out about him more recently. Yeah, And

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Speaker 3: I was like, I saw him in this gap ad

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Speaker 3: that was like in New York City or something on

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Speaker 3: a billboard and like Times Square or something, and I

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Speaker 3: was like.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this feels strange.

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Speaker 3: I have seen all of these clips, viral clips about

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Speaker 3: him talking about materialism and how to live a certain way,

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Speaker 3: and then he's in this multi million million dollar probably

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Speaker 3: worldwide ad campaign for a clothing company. I was like

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Speaker 3: playing ping pong a, who is this? And I was

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Speaker 3: never really a big fan of him. I didn't really

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Speaker 3: know much about him. So I started like, I tried

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Speaker 3: to listen to one of his podcasts and my friend

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Speaker 3: was telling about one of his books.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, this is not new information. First

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Speaker 1: of all. Second all, he's not really saying anything.

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Speaker 2: The Jayshetties of the world. It's like a tale as

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Speaker 2: old as time, you know what I mean. It's like

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Speaker 2: the Tony Robbins. Yes, we look to guru figures like

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Speaker 2: that who have the loudest voice and the most shameless voice,

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Speaker 2: the most populist voice during times of tumult when we

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Speaker 2: just want someone to tell us how to be, like

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Speaker 2: that monologue in a Fleabag in season two, when she's

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Speaker 2: in the confessional and she's like, I just want someone

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Speaker 2: to tell me, like what music to listen to, what

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Speaker 2: tickets to buy, like who love and how to love them.

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Speaker 2: It's just like really confounding to be an adult or

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Speaker 2: child living in the world right now. And so you know,

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Speaker 2: it's unfortunate that those voices that rise to the top

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Speaker 2: are often the most self focused, driven by profit. And

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Speaker 2: then I don't know if you feel this way, but

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Speaker 2: like I sometimes feel self questioning, Like I talk in

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Speaker 2: public about stuff, Yeah, does that.

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Speaker 4: Make me a narcissist? Like, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I am just following my curiosities and they've taken me

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Speaker 2: to this place where I get to talk about them

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Speaker 2: on podcasts and things like that. But I, of course

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Speaker 2: do not endorse worshiping anyone or treating anyone's ideas as dogma.

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Speaker 2: And yet it's easy to do because.

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Speaker 4: Of the halo effect.

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Speaker 2: When we hear someone speak with authority on a platform

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Speaker 2: like a podcast or in a book, it is easy

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Speaker 2: to project that crown of light on their head and

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Speaker 2: forget to perceive their humanity.

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Speaker 4: But where do I draw the line.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there is a difference between celebrities who have

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Speaker 2: made no suggestion that you should worship them as a

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Speaker 2: political authority, and yet we do anyway, and we're expecting

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Speaker 2: them to voice their opinions and their stances on various matters.

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Speaker 2: And I don't have like a definitive answer about whether

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Speaker 2: or not celebrities should do that, or what their role

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Speaker 2: in public life and political life, and if their voices

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Speaker 2: about the mental health crisis or any other phenomenon that

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Speaker 2: we're confronting in modern society. I don't know if those

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Speaker 2: voices like should be heard, if they're qualified to voice them,

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: But it is one thing when we.

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Speaker 2: Are demanding that Taylor Swift speak out endorsing progressive politics

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Speaker 2: when there's literally nothing to suggest that she holds those values.

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Speaker 2: Like she flies on private jets and her security team

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Speaker 2: is all former police. There's nothing, there's nothing to suggest

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Speaker 2: that she holds like extremely left wing values. But then

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Speaker 2: there are celebrities who have absolutely no shame in positioning

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Speaker 2: themselves as some kind of spiritual guru or political figure.

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Speaker 2: I mean, look at the celebrity presidents and other you know,

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Speaker 2: celebrities who have taken a very formal role in political life.

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Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, we're we're living in this very

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Speaker 2: confusing time when there is mass mistrust in authority figures

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Speaker 2: like the government and the healthcare system for good reason,

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Speaker 2: and yet looking to celebrities as a replacement, sort of

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Speaker 2: insurgent outsider figure is also very problematic. Looking to influencers

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Speaker 2: and micro celebrities online to be perfect, you know, holding

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Speaker 2: those expectations that they should be perfect is an issue,

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Speaker 2: and the worship in the end, the lambasting are like

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Speaker 2: two sides of the same coin, because yeah, there are

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Speaker 2: people on social media who are attempting to posis themselves

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Speaker 2: as having access to transcendent wisdom and who are taking

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Speaker 2: advantage of other people's anxieties and saying like, oh, you

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Speaker 2: feel out of control of your life, sign up for

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Speaker 2: my thirty five dollars a month course where you will

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Speaker 2: learn my proprietary manifestation technique. And if it doesn't work

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Speaker 2: for you, well that's your problem. Because I'm a genius.

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Speaker 2: All of these things are happening at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and so I don't have definitive answers for the solutions

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Speaker 2: for these dynamics. But I think being aware of biases

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Speaker 2: like the Halo effect and sort of recalibrating our expectations

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Speaker 2: for various celebrities, sort of looking at the evidence and

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Speaker 2: being like, what are.

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Speaker 4: Jay Shehtty's qualifications?

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Speaker 2: You know, like how am I perceiving this celebrity in

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Speaker 2: the context of their full humanity. I think all of

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Speaker 2: that is a really worthwhile exercise.

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Speaker 3: I want to read something from your book because this

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Speaker 3: is kind of tying in like the Halo effect. I

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Speaker 3: think it is probably some of well, I think it

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Speaker 3: definitely is some of the proportionality bias, and then there's

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Speaker 3: a little bit of the overconfidence bias in this tangled web.

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Speaker 1: In my head, this was so important for me to read.

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Speaker 3: You wrote small, mundane explanations for important events. Princess Diana

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Speaker 3: died because her limo driver was drunk and speeding to

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Speaker 3: avoid paparazzi are generally not as satiating as more dramatic

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Speaker 3: explanations she was murdered by the British government, and then

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Speaker 3: later in that same chapter you wrote in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 3: Mit found that true stories take six times longer to

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Speaker 3: reach fifteen hundred people on Twitter than false ones. That's

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Speaker 3: because false news is more novel and people are more

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Speaker 3: likely to share novel information. People who share novel information

402
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,159
Speaker 3: are seen as being in the know. One sided sentiments

403
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,359
Speaker 3: like over explaining yourself is a traveler response that stems

404
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 3: from an unresolved childhood fear of conflict are far.

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Speaker 1: Better for engagement.

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Speaker 3: Then people justify their actions different ways for different reasons.

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Speaker 3: Or all traumatic events are stressful, but not all stressful

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Speaker 3: events are traumatic, and uh, like you put into those

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Speaker 3: sentences so much of what I've been feeling because those

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Speaker 3: things are true that you just said at the end, like,

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Speaker 3: people justifyd through their actions for different reasons. And I

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00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 3: know enough in this, I think is part of self

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Speaker 3: awareness in a way. I know enough to know that

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Speaker 3: I don't know a lot, and I know enough to

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Speaker 3: know that I don't know what that behavior that.

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Speaker 1: You're doing is from.

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Speaker 3: And I can't pinpoint that exactly on this one event

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Speaker 3: without especially without knowing you. We can try to figure

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Speaker 3: it out, and hopefully we can, but I can't over

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Speaker 3: promise you. And my fear, I think from a mental

421
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Speaker 3: health perspective, is our world is kind of going in

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Speaker 3: a way where true information isn't good enough because it's

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Speaker 3: not so big and great and people don't like the

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Speaker 3: answer of it depends correct And that's most of what

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Speaker 3: I have to admit this.

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Speaker 1: I used to post little explainer grams like years.

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Speaker 3: Ago, and I remember finding myself being like, this isn't

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00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 3: exciting enough, Like nothing I want to write is exciting enough.

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Speaker 1: And eventually I was like, well, this is why, Like you.

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Speaker 3: Have to stopped doing this because the truth is not

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Speaker 3: exciting enough.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: What to do with that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tricky.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'll break down the bias behind the quote

436
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 2: that you just read for the listeners. So proportionality bias

437
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,920
Speaker 2: is the subject of the chapter in the book that's

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Speaker 2: called I Swear I manifested this, in which I argue

439
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: that the bias powering nefarious conspiracy theories and the bias

440
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 2: powering ideas of manifestation that are seemingly more innocent and positive,

441
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: it's actually the same bias. So proportionality bias is the

442
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 2: tendency to think that big events or even just big feelings.

443
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 4: Must have had a big cause.

444
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 2: So the global pandemic strikes this is such like an overwhelming,

445
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 2: mind blowing, enormous calamity. We think to ourselves that could

446
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 2: not have been the result of just a bunch of small,

447
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: random misfortunes. A government must have engineered it on purpose.

448
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: That's the only way this makes proportional sense. You know,

449
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: we as human beings, like to infuse a sort of

450
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 2: cosmic logic into tragedies or events that make us feel

451
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 2: really out of control. We're the only species that mythologizes

452
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: the world in order to make sense of it, like

453
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 2: we make up stories about the world in order for

454
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 2: it to feel manageable to us. So while proportionality bias

455
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: can clearly explain why people think, oh my god, xyz

456
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: result could have only stemmed from this, you know, nefarious

457
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 2: evil elite secretly controlling the socio political order, you can

458
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 2: also see how proportionality bias relates to manifestation because it's

459
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 2: the same misattribution of cause and effect.

460
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 4: It's this idea that if I.

461
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 2: Just vision board hard enough, then I will be able

462
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: to yield health and success and beauty and love. And

463
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: if those things don't come to fruition, there must be

464
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: a problem with my manifestation technique. And what makes this

465
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: sinister or what can be sinister, is that there is

466
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 2: this whole class of what I'm calling conspiracy therapists that

467
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: has emerged on social media who will harness these ideas

468
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: of manifestation make it sound like science, Like there is,

469
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: you know, an empirically backed, like bespoke manifestation technique that

470
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: involves neuroscience, and you know DSM terminology combined with spiritual terminology.

471
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: You know, invoking the word borderline personality disorder and the

472
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: acacic records in the same sentence makes you seem supremely wise,

473
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 2: spiritually wise, and academically wise at the same time. And

474
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 2: they are harnessing that incredible lack of control and sort

475
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,479
Speaker 2: of like existential suffering that so many of us are

476
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: feeling right now and have been feeling over the last

477
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: however long time, long long time throughout the digital age,

478
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: and they are promising a solution while also implying that

479
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: if their solution doesn't help you, then it's your fault.

480
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 2: And if you get cancer, then you must have done

481
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: something wrong that was your unresolved trauma, and that has

482
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: like incredibly sinister victim blaming implications, and then not to

483
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: mention like because these ideas of manifestation. Some of them

484
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 2: have ideology in common with the more pernicious conspiracy theories.

485
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: There is a sort of pipeline, you see it all

486
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: the time, the sort of like new age holistic self

487
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: healing community slowly but surely falling into the sort of

488
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: QAnon of it all. And that's why you see conspiratuality,

489
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 2: the portmanteau of conspiracy theory and spirituality, the sort of

490
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 2: like new age yoga mom's like marching arm in arm

491
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 2: with Holocaust deniers. You know, like this seemingly doesn't make sense,

492
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 2: but it's all powered by this idea that we're on

493
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: the brink of a paradigm shift and there is some

494
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: evil elite controlling the socio political order. And while the

495
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: idea that the government has like underground labs or chemtrails whatever,

496
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: that stuff might be a little spicy for the average person,

497
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: the idea that you have brought suffering onto yourself because

498
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: you didn't practice the law of attraction effectively enough, and

499
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: you don't need big pharma or mental health medication to

500
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 2: solve your problems. You just need to self heal. That

501
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: can be a sort of gateway. So that's a sort

502
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: of like overarching Submary.

503
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 3: Well, and you talking about the gateway is so I

504
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 3: think important to that conversation because people are quick to

505
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 3: be like, well, I'm not crazy or whatever, I wouldn't

506
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 3: and it's progressive. You put a toe in, and then

507
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 3: you like what you feel, and so you put another

508
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 3: toe in, and then you are doing those things. And

509
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: so you wrote this early in the book, but you

510
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: were talking about how we have so much information now

511
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 3: we don't know.

512
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: How to what to do with it.

513
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 3: And for you, you said, learning to stomach a sense

514
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: of irresolution might.

515
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: Be the only way to survive the crisis.

516
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 3: And that feels profound in its simplicity to me, because well,

517
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 3: because I think we're always trying to make sense of

518
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 3: every We want to make sense of everything, We want

519
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: to understand everything.

520
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: And I get it because it's so uncomfortable.

521
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 3: And I also get it because if there's something I

522
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: can do to make my life better or to not

523
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 3: get cancer or to heal my cancer, like it's natural

524
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: to want to do that, of course, but then we

525
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 3: are mind fucking ourselves in the sense that like, there's

526
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 3: not an answer to everything, and we know so much,

527
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: but at the same time we don't know so much.

528
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 3: I think of this as a therapist because I will

529
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: look at and read books about like what people used

530
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: to do in this field, and I'm like, oh.

531
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 4: My gosh, I.

532
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: Cannot believe how we treated people. I mean, the simplest

533
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 3: idea is like lobotomies, like we thought that was.

534
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: Great and it wasn't even that long ago. Right now, Oh,

535
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: we don't know everything.

536
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 3: We know more, we don't know everything, And so I'm thinking, like,

537
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: in twenty years, what am I going to look back

538
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,239
Speaker 3: on and be like, I am so sad that I

539
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: did that or thought that.

540
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

541
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: There's a quote from an opinion writer named Jessica Gross

542
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: that I included in the intro of this book, and

543
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna be able to remember it verbatim, but

544
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: she said something like, I think, because we've progressed so

545
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 2: much technologically in the past one hundred years, we think

546
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: that everything is knowable now. And that's both so arrogant

547
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: and so fucking boring, is what she said.

548
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 4: And yeah, no, I think.

549
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: There are so many biases at play to make us

550
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: like want to mullify the sense of like unease or

551
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: irresolution that we feel, and there are so many biases,

552
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: misleading us into thinking that we do know more than

553
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: we do. There is a chapter of the book about

554
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: overconfidence bias. It was a humbling chapter to write, because God,

555
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: I was thinking, like, surely this is the one bias

556
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: that can't apply to me, Like I'm a reasonable person,

557
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: I hate myself.

558
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 4: But indeed, this is like this near.

559
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: Universal tendency to over credit ourselves with positive outcomes or

560
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 2: to you know, overestimate our expertise in small everyday things

561
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: like you.

562
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 4: Know more than well over half of.

563
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 2: Study participants reported that they were above average in driving, sex,

564
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: and cooking.

565
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 4: You know, like everybody thinks like, oh yeah, no, I'm

566
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: I'm better than average at sex, and it's like, well,

567
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 4: only fifty percent can be. So that was interesting.

568
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: But what I discovered researching that chapter is that we

569
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: have this really hazy cognitive barrier, so like, we we

570
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: have a lot of trouble distinguishing where our knowledge ends

571
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: and another person's begins. There was a study that this

572
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: great book called the knowledge illusion quoted where participants were asked,

573
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: do you know how a zipper or toilet works? And

574
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: most people were like, yeah, of course, I feel like

575
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: I use as a and a toilet every day. Of course,

576
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: I know how it works. And then they were asked

577
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: to write step by step breakdowns of exactly how these

578
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 2: gadgets operated, and that exercise showed them their ignorance, because

579
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: when you get right down to it, most of us

580
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: do not know how toilets and zippers truly truly work.

581
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: But it's someone else's expertise, and it's someone else's capabilities

582
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: that allowed us to think that we do know that,

583
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: and that is obviously disturbing that, like we think we

584
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: know more than we do, and that we're not able

585
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: to tell when you know, like where our limits are.

586
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 2: But there's a beautiful upside because that's also why human

587
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: beings get so much done. That's like how progress is

588
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: able to move forward because we collaborate, We like sort

589
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,959
Speaker 2: of mind meld with people who have different skill sets

590
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: than we do, and that allows us to have the

591
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: audacity to move forward, whether we're talking about technological progress

592
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 2: or grassroots activism. Like if everyone had to have a

593
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: PhD in you know, gender studies before they participated in

594
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: femine movements, we wouldn't have feminist movements. So you know,

595
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 2: there's an upside to it, and yet as the world

596
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: becomes ever more complicated and abstract, the downsides become a

597
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: little more risky. There's also a phenomenon called the Google

598
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: effect where we tend to like pretty immediately forget the

599
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: answers that we learn via web search, but we also

600
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: forget that we forgot it, like we mistake Google's knowledge

601
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: for our own. And so that's upsetting too, because when

602
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 2: you get into you know, debates or when you're going

603
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: to vote, like you might think you understand a policy

604
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 2: or an argument better than you do, and that can

605
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: incite so much conflict with potentially people that you love,

606
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: and that can result in like you cutting them off

607
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: even though like nobody really knew what they were talking about.

608
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: So being aware of those things, I think is just

609
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: so important and really humbling, because while we're not very

610
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 2: good at changing other people's minds, we're pretty good at

611
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: changing our own.

612
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 3: It reminds me of another chapter where like information and

613
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 3: it leaves as soon as easy as it comes. And

614
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 3: before we get to that, I did want to say

615
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: because over confidence bias, I am curious, like what parts

616
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 3: of doing writing this book were like the most shocking

617
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: or surprising to you? But I also felt the same

618
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: way of like, ooh, this is one that I'm going

619
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: to get out of jail free with this chapter.

620
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: And as you were starting it out, my thought to myself, well,

621
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: I struggle with imposter syndrome. This is not my thing.

622
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 3: And then very quickly you tied that all in and

623
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 3: I want to read something else that you wrote because

624
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: it was important, and I wrote some theme. I journaled

625
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: about it because it felt so important to me. You said,

626
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 3: we cannot perceive self doubt as weakness, and we shouldn't

627
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 3: demand underlying certainty, even from experts, or they will surely

628
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: bullshit us in order to meet that expectation. That's so

629
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: scary to me, because I felt it, and so I

630
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: know other people.

631
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: Are feeling it. I felt it too, and I wrote, I.

632
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: Don't know if you'll relate to this, but I wrote

633
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 3: kind of in the margins, there is feelings of inferiority.

634
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: Might be my accurate feelings of knowing my limits. However,

635
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: the expectations to know it all creates a force idea

636
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 3: that I know nothing or I need to fake it,

637
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 3: and I'm overconfident when I don't think people can call

638
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: out the bullshit. And I've become the dumbest person alive

639
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: when there's someone around me that could point out any discrepancy.

640
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 3: That's how I feel, as I guess more so a

641
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: person in the field that I'm in. But also there

642
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: is this drive. It feels like I need to know

643
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: every social construct of it. I need to understand everything

644
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 3: that's coming out. I need to know every political stance.

645
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: I need to be behind all these things because I

646
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 3: work to help people.

647
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: But it's scary because.

648
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: I know that I felt that, like, well, I could

649
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 3: fake it right here and just like act like I

650
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about, but I don't, and so

651
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: I could be perpetuating things that aren't true. And I'm

652
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: also perpetuating the idea that I need to know everything.

653
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: I know that I felt that, like, well, I could

654
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: fake it right here and just like act like I

655
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about, but I don't, And so

656
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 3: I could be perpetuating things that aren't true, and I'm

657
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 3: also perpetuating the idea that I need to know everything.

658
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really struggle with this too, because when you

659
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 2: have a platform, or even if you're just talking one

660
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: on one and you're wanting to create a good impression

661
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: and people are looking at you so expectantly, there is

662
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: pressure to wanna fake it till you make it. I mean,

663
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: that's considered like conventional wisdom in America, you know, fake

664
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: it till you make it. And another thing about that phrase,

665
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: fake it till you make it, I have internalized that

666
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 2: as truth because it rhymes. And this is another phenomenon

667
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: that I actually talk about in a different part of

668
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 2: the book where I address a bias called the illusory

669
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: truth effect, which describes our tendency to think that something

670
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: is true just because we've heard it multiple times. We

671
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: tend to internalize things as true even when they are

672
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: totally implausible and we really really know deep down that

673
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 2: they couldn't be true when we've heard them multiple times,

674
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 2: when they rhyme, when they're written in like legible, aesthetically

675
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: pleasing fonts. These are things that make us feel like

676
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: something is true because they activate processing fluency, Like if

677
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 2: something goes down easy, we tend to think like, oh, well,

678
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: there must be validity there. So that just is a

679
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: sidebar to explain how that phrase fake it till you

680
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 2: make it is so internalized in me. Also because I

681
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: grew up a theater kid, so like when you do

682
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 2: community theater as a child, or when you do theater

683
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: as an adult too, like your directors and your theater

684
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: teachers are being like if someone asks if you can

685
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: tap dance, you better say yes, I fucking can, you know,

686
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: like yes I can't, I can do that, you know.

687
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: And so I have been noticing that in just like

688
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: American culture and in everyday life, like a little bit

689
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: of overconfidence is actually proven to boost morale. It's proven

690
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: to like galvanize people. There are several experiments that have

691
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: been conducted little like wargame experiments where the person who

692
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,959
Speaker 2: came out on top was always someone who had behaved with.

693
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 4: A well calibrated but still a level of overconfidence that

694
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 4: was like Delulu.

695
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: So there are like there are benefits to overconfidence, like

696
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: it will get you somewhere. However, this like malignant over

697
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: the top, you know, narcissistic level of overconfidence that we

698
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: demand in our public figures, whether they're CEOs or politicians

699
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: or celebrities.

700
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 4: I have tried so hard to.

701
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: Stop expecting that when I am perceiving someone speak in public,

702
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: like it is not healthy for anyone to demand that

703
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: they speak on subjects that they don't know about, and

704
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: yet we perceive it as a weakness when someone says

705
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: I'm not sure or I need to check, or I'm

706
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 2: going to default to this person. So again, we're bad

707
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: at changing other people's minds. We're pretty good at changing

708
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: our own. And so if we can mitigate our own

709
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: expectations of public figures over confidence, I think that that's

710
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: a good place to start.

711
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's going to be there could be

712
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: a return on that investment, so to speak. So one

713
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 3: of the bias that I had no idea what it

714
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: was was recent sea illusion. I had never heard of that.

715
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: Can you explain that?

716
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 4: Yeah?

717
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: The recncy illusion is our proclivity to think that something

718
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: is new objectively and thus urgent and worthy of panic

719
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: just because it's new to us. So I might come

720
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: across a headline that feels really urgent and scary, and

721
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: it will like send me into fight or flight, and

722
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: I'll go down a rabbit hole googling, like I don't

723
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 2: know why such and such a thing as like polluting

724
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 2: the soil and poisoning us all, And then I'll realize

725
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: that that headline was just like an article refresh from

726
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: six years ago and it's not new and it's not

727
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: a threaten like I was in fire, so I didn't

728
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 2: even like look at.

729
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: The date that it was published.

730
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the recency illusion connects to again one of

731
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 2: these survival mechanisms. Long before the digital age, recency meant relevance,

732
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 2: and if a stimulus was claiming your attention, that was

733
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: a good enough sign that you might want to pay

734
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: attention to it for survival purposes. So say you're in

735
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 2: your community, you're a hunter gatherer, and you hear a

736
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: rustling in the bushes. The cause of that rustling in

737
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: the bushes, maybe it's a predator, could have been sitting

738
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: there for six hours, But the fact that you are

739
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: just noticing it means that it might be time to run.

740
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: There is like no advantage to being like, oh, what

741
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 2: if that thing is not even a predator, and actually

742
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 2: what if it's been there all day? There's no upside

743
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: to thinking like that, Just run, like your survival will

744
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: thank you even if it wasn't actually a threat. It's

745
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: it's better just to panic just in case. But again,

746
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: we are now projecting those impulses onto these digital threats,

747
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: and I think this can explain why you know, a

748
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: curt email from your boss that you didn't realize had

749
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 2: shown up eight hours ago can fully send you into

750
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 2: fight or flight, even though it's not actually a threat,

751
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: and it's not even new.

752
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 3: In this chapter, I think you were talking about when

753
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: you worked as an editor and you were kind of

754
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: recycling old headlines.

755
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to work as a beauty editor. That

756
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: was my day job. It's a long story how I

757
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: ended up there. But it was not my dream to

758
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: write about I cream for a living. But you know,

759
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: you take the job you can get truly no complaints.

760
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: There are many worse jobs in this world. And now

761
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: I know how to do my makeup, So it was

762
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 2: a good little training camp, I guess.

763
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 4: Anyway.

764
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a huge part of our job as editors

765
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 2: was to refresh old stories because it would, you know,

766
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: allow you to get clicks without having to write something

767
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: brand new. And so sometimes you would take a story

768
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: from yeah, like three years ago, and we would refresh

769
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 2: the headline to sound like really dramatic and click baity,

770
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: like a problem that had just been discovered and that

771
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 2: you just need to address right now, like eleven, like

772
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 2: blow causing diet mistakes. Nutritionists want you to stop making

773
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 2: like yesterday, you know, something like that, or it could

774
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: be a wellness thing, like therapists have just discovered this

775
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: the one thing that's messing with your sleep.

776
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 4: But really that article was.

777
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: You know, old and therapists did not just discover anything,

778
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 2: and it's not really ruining.

779
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 4: Your sleep, you know.

780
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 2: But we were unconsciously tasked with exploiting this bias that

781
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: I now know about called the recency illusion.

782
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: Which is part of like you saying, like knowing that

783
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: this is these are things is helpful and of itself,

784
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: I've noticed myself like doubling before I click that.

785
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a second, have I read this before?

786
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: But like the title was different, or didn't they put

787
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 3: this article out yesterday with a different title, or isn't

788
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 3: this the same thing they were just talking about. They're

789
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 3: just like pulled a different sentence to be the headline.

790
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: So that's that is very helpful because I was unaware

791
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 3: that this was a thing.

792
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: But it also on a different.

793
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 3: Level, I have also grappled with this idea, whether it's

794
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: mine or other people's. When I don't want to focus

795
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 3: on my own stuff, I will make it another people problem.

796
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 3: Even though I struggle with this myself, but I will

797
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: sometimes get kind of down on myself and wonder again

798
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 3: whether it's me or somebody else, if some of the

799
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: causes that I care about, if it is performative, or

800
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 3: like if I really care about certain things and you

801
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 3: kind of touched on that, or you definitely touched on

802
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: that we were talking about, like the me too movement

803
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: and like black Lives Matter, and during I think, well,

804
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 3: from twenty twenty until now, I've just feel like I've

805
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 3: noticed so many And maybe it's because social media is

806
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 3: growing and becoming more of a news source that I

807
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: have noticed that I'll feel like the pressure to act now.

808
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: A friend of mine recently was talking about how when

809
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: she's handed information, she has a larger social media following

810
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 3: and has shifted the way she uses social media because

811
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 3: she felt like there was pressure for her to respond

812
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 3: to every event immediately. And she was like, I need

813
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 3: to process what I think about these things, and then

814
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: I can maybe make a statement if it's something that

815
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 3: I can spend my energy on, or maybe I don't

816
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 3: deal that I deal without on my own. But I

817
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: want to read another thing that you wrote about that,

818
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 3: and then I want to kind of hear your take,

819
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 3: but you wrote brain scientists agree that these shifts are

820
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 3: not always due to a lack of care. The issues

821
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 3: brought to light during social reckonings like the met To

822
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: movement and Black Lives Matter all already existed, and their

823
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: reactions to them are long overdue. But the thing is

824
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,479
Speaker 3: the same power that gave those issues salients gave other

825
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: things salience very quickly thereafter, our nervous systems struggle to

826
00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: sustain agitation for the many new crises new platforms serve us. Actually,

827
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: when material changes don't result right away, the brain is

828
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 3: not prepared to be exposed to trauma, so very often

829
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: it also needs positive feedback to help us step out

830
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 3: of survival.

831
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: And I felt like that it helps kind of my

832
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: shoulder stop a little bit.

833
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: And when I read that, of yeah, maybe it's not

834
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,240
Speaker 3: that I don't care about these issues, but I don't.

835
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: And we aren't supposed to be able to be in

836
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 3: depths of these twenty four to seven all of the time,

837
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 3: and it feels like there's always another one I need

838
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: to add.

839
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, So some of the quotes that you read there,

840
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: I just want to give credit to the people who

841
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 2: spoke them. A couple of those quotes were from Sikul Corostev,

842
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 2: who is a decision scientist, and another was from Mina Bee,

843
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: who is a therapist who has a pretty big platform online.

844
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: Because I approach that subject matter with the question of, like,

845
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: how does the recency illusion connect to so many of

846
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: the ways that we process the news, news that directly

847
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 2: affects us, as well as news that is maybe.

848
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 4: More abstract because it's affecting people across the world.

849
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: And I was really reckoning with behavior in myself, in

850
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: behavior that I was seeing in some of my loved ones,

851
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 2: where yes, we were extremely quick to engage in issues

852
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: that were important, and we would clamor to social media

853
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: platforms to express our solidarity and to share information and

854
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: all these things, and then time would go by and

855
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: that urgency, at least the appearance of that urgency on

856
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 2: social media would kind of dissipate.

857
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 4: And I felt really disheartened.

858
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: By that and by my own self, like, what I

859
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: do I do care about this? This is materially affecting

860
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: many people in our culture who I care about in

861
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 2: society at large, And why am I not, you know,

862
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 2: posting with the same urgency that I was when this

863
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: news broke or when these matters were like truly in

864
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,959
Speaker 2: every headline and I was, you know, questioning, like yeah,

865
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: like it was this nefarious behavior, like you know, was.

866
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 4: I just jumping on a bandwagon?

867
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 2: But no, I don't feel though that's true. And as

868
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: it turns out, like our attention spans have so much

869
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 2: to do with it, the global attention span is shrinking

870
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: in the digital age. And of course not everyone has

871
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: the privilege to disengage from certain subjects, from certain matters.

872
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 2: You know, if a matter is directly affecting you, whether

873
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 2: it is you know, a climate issue or a social

874
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: justice issue, you might not be able to just be like, oh, yeah, no,

875
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: I'm moving on to the next you know, most okmall issue.

876
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 2: And we don't do these things consciously, We do them unconsciously.

877
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: But it just like invited me to entertain this notion

878
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: that when assessing the salience of contemporary concerns, our attention

879
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 2: is no longer the best barometer, you know, because like

880
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 2: as soon as that wrestling in the bushes was proven

881
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: not to be a threat, we're like, okay, we can

882
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: move on, and that is no longer good enough when

883
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: making decisions about our culture.

884
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 3: That feels like a big deal to hear you say that.

885
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 3: Attention is will you say it again, Attention is not

886
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: the best barometer.

887
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, for assessing the salience of contemporary concerns.

888
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 3: Oh, oh my gosh, So I feel like and we

889
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 3: haven't covered them all like this book is.

890
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: And also I don't know.

891
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 3: I'm curious to you because so many of them I feel,

892
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 3: and I think in one of the chapters you kind

893
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 3: of talked about this, so many of them are connected

894
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: in so many ways. And if you're not using one

895
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 3: of these biases and another one is popping up right

896
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 3: underneath of it, or maybe you're combining them, I'm curious

897
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 3: kind of when we close out, like what was the

898
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: most interesting or shocking for you to look at?

899
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: And then also how did your brain organize this?

900
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 3: Just because I feel like they are so connected, but

901
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 3: the book is so makes so much sense at the

902
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: same time.

903
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 4: Thanks, Oh gosh, the one that blew my mind the most.

904
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a chapter in there that's very, very

905
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: personal that addresses the sunk cost fallacy, which is our

906
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: tendency to think that resources already spent on an endeavor time, money,

907
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 2: but also emotional resources like hope secrets justify spending even more,

908
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: and looking into that bias really helped me understand what

909
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: I once perceived as like this unforgivably irrational decision to

910
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 2: spend seven of my formative years in a relationship that

911
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: really really did not serve me. And every time something

912
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 2: bad happened in that relationship, I would dig my heels

913
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: in and I would justify it to myself, and I

914
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: would tell myself like, surely a win is just around

915
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 2: the corner, even though there was nothing to suggest that

916
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: would be the case. And yeah, I felt really ashamed

917
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: for a long time until I started looking into the

918
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 2: role that the sunk cost fallacy plays in our personal

919
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 2: life decision making. So that was a really healing, scary

920
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: but healing chapter to write. And then in terms of

921
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: the organization, So I was inspired to write this book.

922
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: I guess we're at the end of the interview, but

923
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: I will just say that I was inspired to write

924
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: this book that uses cognitive biases as a lens to

925
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: understand these modern forms of rationality by the research that

926
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 2: I was doing for my last book, Cultish. So as

927
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 2: I was looking into the mechanics of cult influence, naturally,

928
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 2: I came across terms like confirmation bias and sun cost fallacy,

929
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 2: and while I couldn't really dive deep into those for

930
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: the cult book, I knew I wanted to pursue them

931
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: in a future project because not only were they explaining,

932
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,959
Speaker 2: you know, people's decision to remain in scientology for twenty

933
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: years or whatever, but they also really connected to my

934
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 2: own life and so many of the behaviors I was

935
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: noticing in the broader culture. And so the way that

936
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 2: I decided to organize the book is I found this

937
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: amazingly helpful infographic that laid out all like two hundred

938
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 2: plus cognitive biases that have been described over the years.

939
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 4: There are so many that have been described, and by

940
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 4: the way, the.

941
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 2: Term cognitive bias was coined by the late behavioral economists

942
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: Amos Tiversky and Daniel Konoman.

943
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 4: I most certainly did not go on enough AnyWho.

944
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 2: So I looked at this infographic and I started reading

945
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: into some of the biases that caught my eye, and

946
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 2: there were somewhere intuitively, I was like, oh my god,

947
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 2: I have to talk about the halo effect because that

948
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 2: applies to this celebrity stuff, or I have to talk

949
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: about proportionality bias, because that is what I'm seeing in

950
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: this sort of conspiracy theoryrapist world. So that decision was

951
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: pretty intuitive, But I thought it would just be kind

952
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: of like a nice or even poetic constraint to use

953
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: eleven different cognitive biases as like themes for every chapter.

954
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just want to say I loved Cultish, and

955
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,399
Speaker 3: I think that that book surprised me in the sense

956
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I'm gonna listen to this book

957
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,919
Speaker 3: about something that has nothing to do with me. Yeah,

958
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, maybe not, But then this book,

959
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 3: I guess. I love the way that you offer information

960
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 3: and tell stories that allows us to take from it

961
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 3: what we want. You're not promising any like, it's not

962
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 3: like read this book and you'll.

963
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: Do da da da da or whatever. You're like, this

964
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: is information, this is how.

965
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 3: It's sometimes applied to my life, this is how it

966
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: sometimes applied to other people. And you can look at

967
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 3: how it applies to you and to me. That that

968
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 3: offers a lot of agency, offers a lot of empowerment,

969
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 3: which is really what therapists.

970
00:49:58,880 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: Are trained to do.

971
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 3: Not that you're trying to be a therapist, but it's

972
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 3: just it's it's so refreshing to see and maybe that's

973
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: why I love it so much.

974
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 4: Thank you.

975
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: But I've been so kind of burnt out by the

976
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: like is this helping me to like what is? What

977
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: is this?

978
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 3: Or have I read this before? And this feels like

979
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: it has been so helpful.

980
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: But I got to do that.

981
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 3: I got to decide how and what that help was,

982
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: and that that I think is really special.

983
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: So thank you for doing that.

984
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you. I'm so glad that's what you took from.

985
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 3: It and your brain. I just want to like live

986
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 3: inside of it for like a day.

987
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 2: Oh no, I really recommend that.

988
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 4: I would not endorse that.

989
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: It's very creative, I will say.

990
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 3: And the way you read I really like, So I

991
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 3: really anyone who's listening, like, we just like scratched the

992
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 3: surface of what is inside of this book and I

993
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 3: think what you guys can make of it on your own.

994
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: And so it's out now. Can you buy it anywhere

995
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 3: and everywhere.

996
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 4: Anywhere and everywhere.

997
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 3: It's an ebook, audiobook, hard copy, And the plus is

998
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 3: the audiobook is you reading it?

999
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: Yeah? I got to read it myself, which was so

1000
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 2: much fun. And a little fun fact is that The

1001
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: flourish of intro music that you hear at the beginning

1002
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: was composed by my partner, Casey, who I dedicated the

1003
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 2: whole book too, So it's very special.

1004
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: It's so fun.

1005
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 3: And then your podcast sounds like a cult? Are you

1006
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 3: transitioning that to the new podcast? Just so people know

1007
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 3: what to look for.

1008
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 1: I'm both You're like, I'm just gonna take something else on.

1009
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 3: I will say, sounds like a cult is very It's

1010
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 3: a fun podcast where sometimes you tackle these serious topics

1011
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 3: that are like kind of gut wrenching and like heartbreaking,

1012
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 3: and then you'll do something that's a little bit more

1013
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 3: fun and light, and so it's a nice balance I

1014
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 3: think that we need today.

1015
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: That show is not for everyone because the tone is

1016
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: like so wacky, but yeah, I have so much fun

1017
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: doing it.

1018
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 4: So that's continuing on.

1019
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 2: It's we're on a mid season break now right now,

1020
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: but it's generally every Tuesday.

1021
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 3: And then where can people find you on social media

1022
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: if they want to follow you?

1023
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 2: Oh, I am reluctantly on Instagram at Amanda Underscore Motel.

1024
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: And then I also have a substack, amandaman tell that

1025
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 2: substack dot com.

1026
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 3: Okay, amazing, Well, Thank you so much for this. This

1027
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 3: was so fun for me and I think people are gonna.

1028
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 4: Love it awesome. Thank you so much for having me