WEBVTT - Judging Sam: An FTX Victim Speaks Out

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode,

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<v Speaker 2>at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome to Judging Sam

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<v Speaker 2>The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. Bankman

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<v Speaker 2>Freed was worth tens of billions of dollars before FTX,

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<v Speaker 2>his cryptocurrency exchange came apart at the seams, and now

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<v Speaker 2>he's being tried for financial crimes. They could send him

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<v Speaker 2>to prison for the rest of his life. Lydia jan

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<v Speaker 2>Cott hosts today.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm Lydia jan Kott. Since I started reporting this story,

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<v Speaker 3>I've noticed something that made it a little different than

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<v Speaker 3>other criminal trials. There hasn't been that much of a

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<v Speaker 3>focus on the victims. While a few of ftx's investors

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<v Speaker 3>and customers have taken the stand, including a commodities trader

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<v Speaker 3>in London and a hotel owner in Canada, their testimonies

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<v Speaker 3>so far, at least, have been short and honestly not

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<v Speaker 3>that dramatic. I kept expecting to hear from a grandmother

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<v Speaker 3>in Topeka who lost her house or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>There are millions of people out there who lost money

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<v Speaker 3>when FTX crashed. They're waiting to see if they'll recover

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<v Speaker 3>some or all of their funds through the bankruptcy proceedings.

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<v Speaker 3>And because that's something we're going to be talking about,

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<v Speaker 3>I want to note here again that my boyfriend's a

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer at one of the firms working on those proceedings

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<v Speaker 3>today on the show. Not quite a grandma in Topeka,

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<v Speaker 3>but a tech worker in Portland named Jake Thacker. Jake,

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<v Speaker 3>thank you for joining.

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<v Speaker 1>Us, Yes, thank you very much for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>Just to start, could you explain why you decided to

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<v Speaker 3>invest in crypto in the first place.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that wasn't even really that interested in crypto, especially

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<v Speaker 1>in the early days like twenty ten eleven, twelve when

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<v Speaker 1>I was really started to gain some traction, really didn't

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<v Speaker 1>understand it and didn't have a ton of interest. Wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>until around the end of twenty seventeen my friends and

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<v Speaker 1>had joined some communities and started doing some fun things

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<v Speaker 1>with crypto and the way in which they were trading

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<v Speaker 1>was intriguing to me, and the methods that they were using,

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<v Speaker 1>and I really just kind of started to dabble very

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<v Speaker 1>very infotesimaly around that, right, small dollar amounts here and there,

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<v Speaker 1>just for kind of the fun of it, to see

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<v Speaker 1>if I could have some successes and what that would

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<v Speaker 1>look like. And it was more of a hobby thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and like, oh, hey, I invested ten dollars and I

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<v Speaker 1>made twenty and I think it was just a fun

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<v Speaker 1>kind of contest between myself and some of my friends.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, as time went on, realized that these

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<v Speaker 1>successes could be translated into larger amounts, and so again

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<v Speaker 1>it kind of snowballed into that over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>a few years.

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<v Speaker 3>So you got interested in crypto and why did you

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<v Speaker 3>choose to use FTX specifically as a cryptocurrency exchange.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the type of trading that my friends and others

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<v Speaker 1>in some of these communities that we participated in were

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<v Speaker 1>very transactionally heavy, right, so thousands of trades a day,

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<v Speaker 1>a week and that type of thing, and those those fees,

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<v Speaker 1>if you are using a platform like a coin base

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<v Speaker 1>or finance, can be very expensive and be a huge

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<v Speaker 1>part of your margins at the end of the day.

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<v Speaker 1>And again when you're looking to kind of squeeze in

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<v Speaker 1>a tough market, ftx was definitely appetizing in the sense

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<v Speaker 1>that they were offering, at least in those terms, substantially

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<v Speaker 1>lower transaction fees. And so that's what really drew me there.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd say it was probably the end of twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>one beginning of twenty twenty two. Again I really hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>had a need for it to tell them. But then again,

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<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned, the market's turning, and when that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you look to kind of optimize anywhere possible.

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<v Speaker 1>And it seemed, at least from kind of the sniff

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<v Speaker 1>testing that we had put it through, that was very legitimate, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and it had all this backing. It seemed to work famously.

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<v Speaker 1>It seemed to be a skyrocket in the marketplace, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there weren't any substantial red flags that we

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<v Speaker 1>noticed that would indicate, you know, there were could have

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<v Speaker 1>been something like the events of almost over a year ago.

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<v Speaker 3>And how did it go at first? You're trading on FTX?

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<v Speaker 1>At first it went famously. I wouldn't say that I did,

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<v Speaker 1>like a ton of crazy trading that I was doing

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<v Speaker 1>on other platforms, but for what I needed it for

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<v Speaker 1>and for the coins that I was utilizing the platform for,

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<v Speaker 1>it was it worked just as they.

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<v Speaker 2>Said judging, Sam will be right back, welcome back.

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<v Speaker 3>Can you walk me through what happened in November twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty two? How did you first become aware that there

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<v Speaker 3>might be a problem at FTX?

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<v Speaker 1>I actually should have been paying more attention. There were

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<v Speaker 1>some obviously issues that had been flagged in people raising

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<v Speaker 1>alarms on some of something in my community chat things.

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<v Speaker 3>And how were you guys communicating? Were you onlike were

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<v Speaker 3>you messaging? How was there a message board?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Yeah, it's like a community message board, right, So

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<v Speaker 1>there's a community called bitscap and that's where I had

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<v Speaker 1>used that platform to trade as well as interact with

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<v Speaker 1>a handful of people and learn from them and vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I was regularly on that and then a

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<v Speaker 1>few of us had exchanged emails and like WhatsApp accounts,

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<v Speaker 1>and so there was emails, there was I mean, on

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<v Speaker 1>the day of I was getting just bombarded with messages

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<v Speaker 1>and all various sources of communication. The initial fear was

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<v Speaker 1>that they were starting to limit access to the platforms

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<v Speaker 1>because there had been a hack. That was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the narrative that was going around before any official announcement

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<v Speaker 1>of like the collapse and you know, aankruptcy, that kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thing. So their support channels were bombarded to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where eventually started getting messages of like, look, we're

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<v Speaker 1>overwhelmed and we'll get back to you when we can

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<v Speaker 1>get back to you, kind of a thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Like messages from FTX And was this do you remember

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<v Speaker 3>what the date was? Was this November? It must have

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<v Speaker 3>been early November twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 1>Two, right, Yeah, it was like the sixth, and the seventh,

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<v Speaker 1>and the fourth, like you know, the five or six

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<v Speaker 1>days leading up to the actual quote unquote collapse.

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<v Speaker 3>Were you scared at this point? Did it occur to

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<v Speaker 3>you that you might not be able to get your

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<v Speaker 3>money back?

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<v Speaker 1>I was naive in thinking that I would be safe.

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<v Speaker 1>There wasn't any conversation around oh, this is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a complete collapse and there's no money like It

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<v Speaker 1>was more of timing.

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<v Speaker 3>And how much money did you have on the platform

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<v Speaker 3>at that point.

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<v Speaker 1>At the end of the day, after all the tabulation

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<v Speaker 1>and this was realized, probably around the end of December,

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<v Speaker 1>it ended up being all of the money that I had,

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<v Speaker 1>which is around two hundred and six thousand dollars that

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<v Speaker 1>I had in that wallet total.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell me about the moment when you realized that this

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<v Speaker 3>pertained to you, that you couldn't get your money out

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<v Speaker 3>of your wallet.

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<v Speaker 1>It was probably the night preceding the announcement of the

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<v Speaker 1>official collapse. The system was completely inaccessible. I couldn't get online,

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't on the app. It was just like this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of spinning FTX logo and you could not access anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Thinking to myself, Okay, there's either been some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>massive system overload or something really bad has happened. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>We've never seen this before. What does this mean when

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<v Speaker 1>this happens with a company like this. Everyone was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of in the dark about it, and then it's people

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<v Speaker 1>because of timing around the world, because we were FTX

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<v Speaker 1>us versus. FTX started to get some messages in that Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a new flashes of a new message just coming

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<v Speaker 1>up saying all transactions are now on hold for definite

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<v Speaker 1>period of time. And then and then that next day,

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<v Speaker 1>some of the initial news reports started to be posted,

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<v Speaker 1>started to come up and say, like, there's no money,

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<v Speaker 1>they're filing for bankruptcy, the platform has officially crashed, like

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<v Speaker 1>it's officially down, not being monitored, that kind of thing,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's it's lights out for FTX officially, which was

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<v Speaker 1>hard for a lot of us to accept.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and what impacts did it have on your life

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<v Speaker 3>that you lost what two hundred thousand dollars?

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<v Speaker 1>You said, well, yeah, but you know, I had again

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<v Speaker 1>leveraged that essentially to be able to invest more. So yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I had to borrow a little bit, but I, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>had essentially tripled my money over the course of the years.

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<v Speaker 1>It was it was a little more than I had

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<v Speaker 1>borrowed to invest, but that money needed to be paid back,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I lost the ability to do that complete right.

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't get the funds. I didn't know how to

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<v Speaker 1>get the funds. I borrow money from Chase, I had

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<v Speaker 1>borrow money from Discover Card in order to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to have the money to invest. And so these were

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<v Speaker 1>institutions that obviously needed to have this money paid back

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<v Speaker 1>to them at some point in time, and so that's

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<v Speaker 1>that's where that money was set aside for and so

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<v Speaker 1>again I had lost the ability to essentially even make

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<v Speaker 1>monthly payments on those as well as payback the amounts

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<v Speaker 1>initially borrowed.

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<v Speaker 3>So this essentially bankrupted you.

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<v Speaker 1>Well yeah, and I thought, well, you know, I had

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<v Speaker 1>a good job. I was working for a company called

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<v Speaker 1>New at the time. But then in January of this year,

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<v Speaker 1>New laid off almost half of the workforce, I'd say,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was an unfortunate member of that. And then

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<v Speaker 1>I was then it was like, okay, now I'm in

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<v Speaker 1>real bad shape. And so you're absolutely right. I had

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<v Speaker 1>to file bankruptcy and had to offload a lot of assets,

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<v Speaker 1>just personal assets like TV, piano, these types of things

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<v Speaker 1>to try and kind of keep things on par. And

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<v Speaker 1>so it's been. It has completely changed the trajectory of

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<v Speaker 1>what I thought my life would be, at least right

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<v Speaker 1>now and especially for probably the next five six years.

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<v Speaker 3>I'd say, do you think you're going to get your

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<v Speaker 3>money back? Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>Boy, that is the question. I don't know. I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>some press recently circulating that FTX is hoping to pay

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<v Speaker 1>back something around ninety percent of creditors. It's just it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to It's hard to say because it just doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>seem like that is the case. And if it is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what is the timeline of something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And the longer it takes, the less money it seems

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<v Speaker 1>that would be available due to whatever commitments that they have.

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<v Speaker 1>I like to think that there'd be some that we

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<v Speaker 1>get back, but right now I'm a little more skeptical

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<v Speaker 1>than I am positive in regards to seeing any of

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<v Speaker 1>my funds returning to me anytime soon, if at all.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm just curious. Out of the things you had to

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<v Speaker 3>sell after FTX crashed, what's the thing you missed the most?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, definitely the piano. I played from a very very

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<v Speaker 1>young age and almost went to college or university for it,

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<v Speaker 1>and music therapy for me is definitely a very positive

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<v Speaker 1>and motivating stress reliever for me, and so that was very,

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<v Speaker 1>very very hard to part ways with and something I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I had even brought it to Korea with me when

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<v Speaker 1>I was living there. That's how much I enjoy and

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<v Speaker 1>play piano. Was definitely one that I wish that I

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<v Speaker 1>had not had to and seek to hopefully have another

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<v Speaker 1>one at some point in the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Stick around judging. Sam will be right back, welcome back.

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<v Speaker 3>What's it been like for you knowing that there's this

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<v Speaker 3>criminal case against samankman Fred that's happening right now.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, at the end of the day, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>people have asked me, do you want to see him

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<v Speaker 1>go to prison? Do you think that he's guilty? And

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<v Speaker 1>I think those are all very valid questions, And of course,

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<v Speaker 1>if somebody commits a crime, you don't want to say

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<v Speaker 1>they shouldn't should be held accountable, absolutely, But in this instance,

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard for me to have a serious investment in

0:13:48.876 --> 0:13:54.516
<v Speaker 1>it either way, because again, his guilt or his innocence

0:13:54.836 --> 0:14:00.916
<v Speaker 1>doesn't make anyone whole. It doesn't really service anyone's actual

0:14:00.996 --> 0:14:04.756
<v Speaker 1>need when it comes to financial stability. I wish that

0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:09.436
<v Speaker 1>the punishment was instead him having to have a little

0:14:09.436 --> 0:14:12.076
<v Speaker 1>bit more of a direct impact with the people that

0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:15.116
<v Speaker 1>were victimized of this, as opposed to just having to

0:14:15.156 --> 0:14:18.156
<v Speaker 1>go away and hide somewhere and not really having to

0:14:18.236 --> 0:14:23.956
<v Speaker 1>face the music outside of isolation. And you know, retrospective

0:14:23.956 --> 0:14:25.116
<v Speaker 1>and that kind of thing, right, Like.

0:14:25.196 --> 0:14:27.036
<v Speaker 3>Rather than go to prison, he should have to like

0:14:27.556 --> 0:14:29.436
<v Speaker 3>work really hard to make the money back and be

0:14:29.436 --> 0:14:30.396
<v Speaker 3>able to give it back to you.

0:14:31.036 --> 0:14:33.716
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, come clean my house and do my dishes for me,

0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:37.156
<v Speaker 1>and you know, walk my dog, and that I can think, right,

0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:41.556
<v Speaker 1>like face the people that were actually affected by this

0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:47.076
<v Speaker 1>the most and realize that not all of us are

0:14:47.276 --> 0:14:51.476
<v Speaker 1>sons of affluent parents, that you work at prestigious universities,

0:14:51.636 --> 0:14:54.596
<v Speaker 1>or that all of us had billions of dollars handed

0:14:54.636 --> 0:14:57.876
<v Speaker 1>to us because we could sell things really well. A

0:14:57.916 --> 0:15:00.836
<v Speaker 1>lot of people were average citizens, and some of them

0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:04.916
<v Speaker 1>had their entire life savings wrapped up in these things, right,

0:15:05.076 --> 0:15:10.116
<v Speaker 1>just to see it completely vanish with no with no

0:15:10.396 --> 0:15:11.996
<v Speaker 1>roadmap for how to move forward.

0:15:12.556 --> 0:15:14.956
<v Speaker 3>Sam bankmin Fried is likely to take the stand this

0:15:15.036 --> 0:15:17.876
<v Speaker 3>week in your you know what would you what would

0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:19.356
<v Speaker 3>you like him to say? What would you like to

0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:21.476
<v Speaker 3>hear from him?

0:15:21.716 --> 0:15:24.076
<v Speaker 1>Well, I would want him to say, in all sincerity,

0:15:24.236 --> 0:15:27.076
<v Speaker 1>is that you know he wants to help and that

0:15:27.116 --> 0:15:29.956
<v Speaker 1>he wants to you know, he sees the damage that

0:15:30.036 --> 0:15:32.796
<v Speaker 1>has done and it really wants to try and rectify that.

0:15:32.996 --> 0:15:36.516
<v Speaker 1>But from what I have seen so far, it doesn't

0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:38.956
<v Speaker 1>seem like that is going to be the scenario.

0:15:40.116 --> 0:15:42.596
<v Speaker 3>Has this experience changed how you feel about crypto?

0:15:43.676 --> 0:15:48.836
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Of course, yeah, definitely. It has changed my understanding

0:15:49.116 --> 0:15:53.236
<v Speaker 1>and kind of reliance on it as something I feel

0:15:53.396 --> 0:15:57.596
<v Speaker 1>could benefit me and my active participation have taken all

0:15:57.596 --> 0:16:00.316
<v Speaker 1>of my money out. I haven't paid attention at all.

0:16:00.956 --> 0:16:04.236
<v Speaker 1>I haven't even thought about it, and I don't know

0:16:04.276 --> 0:16:07.196
<v Speaker 1>if I will ever jump back into it. There might

0:16:07.236 --> 0:16:11.836
<v Speaker 1>be a period time which I will, but I don't

0:16:11.876 --> 0:16:16.396
<v Speaker 1>really trust that process anymore. I'm very, very, very very

0:16:16.436 --> 0:16:18.836
<v Speaker 1>reluctant to try and jump back in at any point

0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:19.316
<v Speaker 1>in time.

0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:22.476
<v Speaker 3>In what ways has this whole thing changed you as

0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:22.956
<v Speaker 3>a person?

0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:26.876
<v Speaker 1>Do you think I have a very different relationship to

0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:31.436
<v Speaker 1>people that they get into hard time. I realized through

0:16:31.436 --> 0:16:35.916
<v Speaker 1>all of this how difficult it is when something like

0:16:35.916 --> 0:16:39.636
<v Speaker 1>this happens and you know you're not in a position

0:16:39.836 --> 0:16:44.036
<v Speaker 1>to be able to bail yourself out or there is

0:16:44.156 --> 0:16:47.316
<v Speaker 1>no help on the back end. It's kind of a

0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:53.556
<v Speaker 1>never ending spiral. I was sued by my creditors, Chase Discoverer,

0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:57.596
<v Speaker 1>and then another private firm that does like personal loans

0:16:57.596 --> 0:17:01.116
<v Speaker 1>for these types of things. Almost immediately after I could

0:17:01.196 --> 0:17:05.556
<v Speaker 1>make a couple of the payments, and I'm thinking to myself, why,

0:17:05.916 --> 0:17:09.316
<v Speaker 1>like the few thousand dollars that I borrowed at the

0:17:09.356 --> 0:17:12.876
<v Speaker 1>end of the day, these are billion dollar organizations, why

0:17:12.916 --> 0:17:17.396
<v Speaker 1>did they care? And you know, that kind of aggressive

0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:23.556
<v Speaker 1>stance really puts people in this situation of making more mistakes,

0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:29.276
<v Speaker 1>of becoming overly anxious and fearing that system. It has

0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:32.076
<v Speaker 1>changed my perspective on that and changed, frankly, the way

0:17:32.076 --> 0:17:34.196
<v Speaker 1>that I have had to live in the way I've

0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:36.756
<v Speaker 1>had to manage my life and the things that I

0:17:36.836 --> 0:17:39.956
<v Speaker 1>have had to accept and be willing to give up,

0:17:40.036 --> 0:17:45.356
<v Speaker 1>like my house, my possessions and the house well, I

0:17:45.396 --> 0:17:47.636
<v Speaker 1>don't know. Yeah, that's that's one thing that's still being

0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:52.596
<v Speaker 1>determined as part of the bankruptcy. If it is deemed

0:17:53.116 --> 0:17:58.716
<v Speaker 1>a asset that is valuable enough to potentially cover some

0:17:58.916 --> 0:18:04.076
<v Speaker 1>of the losses that I owe, then yeah, it would be.

0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:06.636
<v Speaker 1>It would be part of the bargaining ships in that.

0:18:07.836 --> 0:18:09.596
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how many people you've been able to

0:18:09.596 --> 0:18:11.236
<v Speaker 1>get a hold of, but it seems like a lot

0:18:11.236 --> 0:18:15.636
<v Speaker 1>of customers in my position have been very closed lipped

0:18:15.636 --> 0:18:16.916
<v Speaker 1>about wanted to share.

0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:18.876
<v Speaker 3>So, yeah, why do you think that is.

0:18:21.716 --> 0:18:27.596
<v Speaker 1>My theory on it is it's like my parents are

0:18:27.636 --> 0:18:29.236
<v Speaker 1>a little worried about this season, Like, aren't you worried

0:18:29.276 --> 0:18:33.276
<v Speaker 1>about exposure? And I said, what exposure? Exactly? Like if

0:18:33.276 --> 0:18:37.636
<v Speaker 1>people think that I'm an dumb person for investing in

0:18:37.636 --> 0:18:40.356
<v Speaker 1>crypto and then losing all my money, which I think

0:18:40.436 --> 0:18:43.276
<v Speaker 1>is kind of already the narrative, right, Yes, there's been

0:18:43.316 --> 0:18:46.476
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fluctuation in the typt of markets, but like,

0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:50.236
<v Speaker 1>people haven't had their entire lives destroyed by crypto at

0:18:50.236 --> 0:18:54.916
<v Speaker 1>this volume because of personal indiscretion. This is a whole

0:18:55.036 --> 0:18:57.876
<v Speaker 1>other type of thing, and I think people are afraid

0:18:57.916 --> 0:19:02.996
<v Speaker 1>to publicly be seen as you know, the face of

0:19:03.116 --> 0:19:04.476
<v Speaker 1>what people already assume.

0:19:04.876 --> 0:19:06.716
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, it totally makes sense. I mean, I guess

0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:10.116
<v Speaker 3>it's scary and hard to like to having been a

0:19:10.156 --> 0:19:11.116
<v Speaker 3>victim of something.

0:19:11.436 --> 0:19:15.196
<v Speaker 1>Right, you know, people always have a hard time being

0:19:15.356 --> 0:19:21.156
<v Speaker 1>or associated with something that people might have a thought of,

0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:23.236
<v Speaker 1>like well, if you hadn't done this, you would be

0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:26.716
<v Speaker 1>in this situation, and more of that guilt and association

0:19:26.956 --> 0:19:30.316
<v Speaker 1>than like I'm sorry for you. That's not fun. There

0:19:30.356 --> 0:19:33.716
<v Speaker 1>should be action taken other places. It's normally a victim

0:19:33.716 --> 0:19:36.276
<v Speaker 1>blaming game, and I think people just wanted to avoid

0:19:36.316 --> 0:19:37.796
<v Speaker 1>that take.

0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:40.356
<v Speaker 3>Zachery, thank you so much for your time and I

0:19:40.396 --> 0:19:41.836
<v Speaker 3>hope one day you get your piano back.

0:19:42.636 --> 0:19:44.876
<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, thanks for having me and appreciate it,

0:19:44.916 --> 0:19:46.876
<v Speaker 1>and good luck with everything else.

0:19:48.996 --> 0:19:51.916
<v Speaker 2>This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia Jean Kott.

0:19:52.036 --> 0:19:56.036
<v Speaker 2>Our court reporter Catherine Gerardau and Nisha Venken produced this show.

0:19:56.636 --> 0:19:59.756
<v Speaker 2>Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was composed by

0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:04.116
<v Speaker 2>Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Sephanette. Judging

0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:07.436
<v Speaker 2>Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question

0:20:07.556 --> 0:20:10.636
<v Speaker 2>or comment for me, There's a website for that atr

0:20:10.756 --> 0:20:16.996
<v Speaker 2>podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To find

0:20:17.036 --> 0:20:20.876
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