1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,516 --> 00:00:21,476 Speaker 2: Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode, 3 00:00:21,596 --> 00:00:23,116 Speaker 2: I want to let you know that you can listen 4 00:00:23,116 --> 00:00:26,316 Speaker 2: to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial of Sam 5 00:00:26,356 --> 00:00:30,516 Speaker 2: Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber, 6 00:00:30,996 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive access to 7 00:00:34,156 --> 00:00:38,676 Speaker 2: ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul McCartney's new podcast, 8 00:00:38,836 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 2: McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's revisionist history, The 9 00:00:43,676 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 2: Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and tons of other 10 00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 2: top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an Apple Podcasts or 11 00:00:51,116 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 2: at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome to Judging Sam 12 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 2: The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. Bankman 13 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:05,636 Speaker 2: Freed was worth tens of billions of dollars before FTX, 14 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:09,996 Speaker 2: his cryptocurrency exchange came apart at the seams, and now 15 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 2: he's being tried for financial crimes. They could send him 16 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:15,676 Speaker 2: to prison for the rest of his life. Lydia jan 17 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 2: Cott hosts today. 18 00:01:19,276 --> 00:01:22,836 Speaker 3: I'm Lydia jan Kott. Since I started reporting this story, 19 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:25,436 Speaker 3: I've noticed something that made it a little different than 20 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:28,916 Speaker 3: other criminal trials. There hasn't been that much of a 21 00:01:28,956 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 3: focus on the victims. While a few of ftx's investors 22 00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:36,956 Speaker 3: and customers have taken the stand, including a commodities trader 23 00:01:36,996 --> 00:01:40,836 Speaker 3: in London and a hotel owner in Canada, their testimonies 24 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 3: so far, at least, have been short and honestly not 25 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:47,996 Speaker 3: that dramatic. I kept expecting to hear from a grandmother 26 00:01:48,036 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 3: in Topeka who lost her house or something like that. 27 00:01:51,596 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 3: There are millions of people out there who lost money 28 00:01:54,156 --> 00:01:57,556 Speaker 3: when FTX crashed. They're waiting to see if they'll recover 29 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 3: some or all of their funds through the bankruptcy proceedings. 30 00:02:01,036 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 3: And because that's something we're going to be talking about, 31 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:05,276 Speaker 3: I want to note here again that my boyfriend's a 32 00:02:05,316 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 3: lawyer at one of the firms working on those proceedings 33 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:11,916 Speaker 3: today on the show. Not quite a grandma in Topeka, 34 00:02:11,956 --> 00:02:15,276 Speaker 3: but a tech worker in Portland named Jake Thacker. Jake, 35 00:02:15,716 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 3: thank you for joining. 36 00:02:16,556 --> 00:02:19,596 Speaker 1: Us, Yes, thank you very much for having me. 37 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:24,596 Speaker 3: Just to start, could you explain why you decided to 38 00:02:24,636 --> 00:02:26,476 Speaker 3: invest in crypto in the first place. 39 00:02:27,876 --> 00:02:31,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, that wasn't even really that interested in crypto, especially 40 00:02:31,076 --> 00:02:34,476 Speaker 1: in the early days like twenty ten eleven, twelve when 41 00:02:34,796 --> 00:02:37,756 Speaker 1: I was really started to gain some traction, really didn't 42 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:41,156 Speaker 1: understand it and didn't have a ton of interest. Wasn't 43 00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:46,516 Speaker 1: until around the end of twenty seventeen my friends and 44 00:02:46,996 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 1: had joined some communities and started doing some fun things 45 00:02:50,876 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 1: with crypto and the way in which they were trading 46 00:02:53,636 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: was intriguing to me, and the methods that they were using, 47 00:02:56,716 --> 00:02:59,716 Speaker 1: and I really just kind of started to dabble very 48 00:02:59,836 --> 00:03:04,996 Speaker 1: very infotesimaly around that, right, small dollar amounts here and there, 49 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 1: just for kind of the fun of it, to see 50 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:10,476 Speaker 1: if I could have some successes and what that would 51 00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: look like. And it was more of a hobby thing, 52 00:03:12,716 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 1: and like, oh, hey, I invested ten dollars and I 53 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 1: made twenty and I think it was just a fun 54 00:03:18,876 --> 00:03:22,676 Speaker 1: kind of contest between myself and some of my friends. 55 00:03:22,676 --> 00:03:27,436 Speaker 1: But you know, as time went on, realized that these 56 00:03:27,516 --> 00:03:32,236 Speaker 1: successes could be translated into larger amounts, and so again 57 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:35,556 Speaker 1: it kind of snowballed into that over the course of 58 00:03:35,596 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 1: a few years. 59 00:03:36,716 --> 00:03:40,076 Speaker 3: So you got interested in crypto and why did you 60 00:03:40,196 --> 00:03:45,436 Speaker 3: choose to use FTX specifically as a cryptocurrency exchange. 61 00:03:45,716 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, the type of trading that my friends and others 62 00:03:50,436 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: in some of these communities that we participated in were 63 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:57,996 Speaker 1: very transactionally heavy, right, so thousands of trades a day, 64 00:03:58,036 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 1: a week and that type of thing, and those those fees, 65 00:04:01,636 --> 00:04:04,756 Speaker 1: if you are using a platform like a coin base 66 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:09,116 Speaker 1: or finance, can be very expensive and be a huge 67 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:12,436 Speaker 1: part of your margins at the end of the day. 68 00:04:13,196 --> 00:04:17,076 Speaker 1: And again when you're looking to kind of squeeze in 69 00:04:17,076 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: a tough market, ftx was definitely appetizing in the sense 70 00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:24,916 Speaker 1: that they were offering, at least in those terms, substantially 71 00:04:24,996 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 1: lower transaction fees. And so that's what really drew me there. 72 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 1: I'd say it was probably the end of twenty twenty 73 00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:36,596 Speaker 1: one beginning of twenty twenty two. Again I really hadn't 74 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:39,916 Speaker 1: had a need for it to tell them. But then again, 75 00:04:39,956 --> 00:04:42,916 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, the market's turning, and when that happened, 76 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:46,476 Speaker 1: you know, you look to kind of optimize anywhere possible. 77 00:04:46,996 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: And it seemed, at least from kind of the sniff 78 00:04:50,476 --> 00:04:54,036 Speaker 1: testing that we had put it through, that was very legitimate, right, 79 00:04:54,116 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 1: and it had all this backing. It seemed to work famously. 80 00:04:57,356 --> 00:04:59,956 Speaker 1: It seemed to be a skyrocket in the marketplace, and 81 00:05:00,636 --> 00:05:03,116 Speaker 1: you know, there weren't any substantial red flags that we 82 00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 1: noticed that would indicate, you know, there were could have 83 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: been something like the events of almost over a year ago. 84 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 3: And how did it go at first? You're trading on FTX? 85 00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:17,596 Speaker 1: At first it went famously. I wouldn't say that I did, 86 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:19,956 Speaker 1: like a ton of crazy trading that I was doing 87 00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:22,876 Speaker 1: on other platforms, but for what I needed it for 88 00:05:23,556 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 1: and for the coins that I was utilizing the platform for, 89 00:05:29,556 --> 00:05:32,196 Speaker 1: it was it worked just as they. 90 00:05:32,076 --> 00:05:42,796 Speaker 2: Said judging, Sam will be right back, welcome back. 91 00:05:43,836 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 3: Can you walk me through what happened in November twenty 92 00:05:46,796 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 3: twenty two? How did you first become aware that there 93 00:05:49,996 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 3: might be a problem at FTX? 94 00:05:52,596 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 1: I actually should have been paying more attention. There were 95 00:05:56,476 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 1: some obviously issues that had been flagged in people raising 96 00:06:00,476 --> 00:06:04,916 Speaker 1: alarms on some of something in my community chat things. 97 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 3: And how were you guys communicating? Were you onlike were 98 00:06:07,636 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 3: you messaging? How was there a message board? 99 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:14,076 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, it's like a community message board, right, So 100 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:18,996 Speaker 1: there's a community called bitscap and that's where I had 101 00:06:19,356 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: used that platform to trade as well as interact with 102 00:06:23,476 --> 00:06:26,756 Speaker 1: a handful of people and learn from them and vice versa. 103 00:06:26,796 --> 00:06:29,636 Speaker 1: And so I was regularly on that and then a 104 00:06:29,676 --> 00:06:33,956 Speaker 1: few of us had exchanged emails and like WhatsApp accounts, 105 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: and so there was emails, there was I mean, on 106 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:41,596 Speaker 1: the day of I was getting just bombarded with messages 107 00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:48,916 Speaker 1: and all various sources of communication. The initial fear was 108 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:53,516 Speaker 1: that they were starting to limit access to the platforms 109 00:06:53,556 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 1: because there had been a hack. That was kind of 110 00:06:56,196 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 1: the narrative that was going around before any official announcement 111 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:03,956 Speaker 1: of like the collapse and you know, aankruptcy, that kind 112 00:07:03,956 --> 00:07:07,756 Speaker 1: of thing. So their support channels were bombarded to the 113 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:11,396 Speaker 1: point where eventually started getting messages of like, look, we're 114 00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:13,876 Speaker 1: overwhelmed and we'll get back to you when we can 115 00:07:13,916 --> 00:07:15,356 Speaker 1: get back to you, kind of a thing. 116 00:07:15,396 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 3: Like messages from FTX And was this do you remember 117 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:20,036 Speaker 3: what the date was? Was this November? It must have 118 00:07:20,076 --> 00:07:21,596 Speaker 3: been early November twenty twenty. 119 00:07:21,356 --> 00:07:25,116 Speaker 1: Two, right, Yeah, it was like the sixth, and the seventh, 120 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: and the fourth, like you know, the five or six 121 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:31,476 Speaker 1: days leading up to the actual quote unquote collapse. 122 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 3: Were you scared at this point? Did it occur to 123 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:35,916 Speaker 3: you that you might not be able to get your 124 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 3: money back? 125 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:41,916 Speaker 1: I was naive in thinking that I would be safe. 126 00:07:42,236 --> 00:07:44,516 Speaker 1: There wasn't any conversation around oh, this is going to 127 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 1: be a complete collapse and there's no money like It 128 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:49,756 Speaker 1: was more of timing. 129 00:07:49,796 --> 00:07:52,516 Speaker 3: And how much money did you have on the platform 130 00:07:52,556 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 3: at that point. 131 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:56,876 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, after all the tabulation 132 00:07:57,196 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 1: and this was realized, probably around the end of December, 133 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 1: it ended up being all of the money that I had, 134 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:07,076 Speaker 1: which is around two hundred and six thousand dollars that 135 00:08:07,156 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 1: I had in that wallet total. 136 00:08:10,836 --> 00:08:14,156 Speaker 3: Tell me about the moment when you realized that this 137 00:08:14,236 --> 00:08:16,556 Speaker 3: pertained to you, that you couldn't get your money out 138 00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:17,076 Speaker 3: of your wallet. 139 00:08:18,716 --> 00:08:22,796 Speaker 1: It was probably the night preceding the announcement of the 140 00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 1: official collapse. The system was completely inaccessible. I couldn't get online, 141 00:08:29,236 --> 00:08:30,956 Speaker 1: I couldn't on the app. It was just like this 142 00:08:31,116 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 1: kind of spinning FTX logo and you could not access anything. 143 00:08:36,716 --> 00:08:40,236 Speaker 1: Thinking to myself, Okay, there's either been some sort of 144 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:46,036 Speaker 1: massive system overload or something really bad has happened. Right, 145 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:48,836 Speaker 1: We've never seen this before. What does this mean when 146 00:08:48,876 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 1: this happens with a company like this. Everyone was kind 147 00:08:51,716 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: of in the dark about it, and then it's people 148 00:08:54,636 --> 00:08:58,916 Speaker 1: because of timing around the world, because we were FTX 149 00:08:59,076 --> 00:09:03,436 Speaker 1: us versus. FTX started to get some messages in that Hey, 150 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 1: there's a new flashes of a new message just coming 151 00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:12,236 Speaker 1: up saying all transactions are now on hold for definite 152 00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: period of time. And then and then that next day, 153 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:18,316 Speaker 1: some of the initial news reports started to be posted, 154 00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:22,316 Speaker 1: started to come up and say, like, there's no money, 155 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:26,556 Speaker 1: they're filing for bankruptcy, the platform has officially crashed, like 156 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:30,236 Speaker 1: it's officially down, not being monitored, that kind of thing, 157 00:09:30,276 --> 00:09:35,956 Speaker 1: like it's it's lights out for FTX officially, which was 158 00:09:35,996 --> 00:09:37,596 Speaker 1: hard for a lot of us to accept. 159 00:09:38,676 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 3: Yeah, and what impacts did it have on your life 160 00:09:41,196 --> 00:09:43,636 Speaker 3: that you lost what two hundred thousand dollars? 161 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:46,836 Speaker 1: You said, well, yeah, but you know, I had again 162 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 1: leveraged that essentially to be able to invest more. So yes, 163 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 1: I had to borrow a little bit, but I, you know, 164 00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:57,916 Speaker 1: had essentially tripled my money over the course of the years. 165 00:09:58,756 --> 00:10:01,276 Speaker 1: It was it was a little more than I had 166 00:10:02,116 --> 00:10:05,796 Speaker 1: borrowed to invest, but that money needed to be paid back, 167 00:10:05,876 --> 00:10:09,716 Speaker 1: and so I lost the ability to do that complete right. 168 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 1: I couldn't get the funds. I didn't know how to 169 00:10:11,596 --> 00:10:13,996 Speaker 1: get the funds. I borrow money from Chase, I had 170 00:10:14,036 --> 00:10:17,516 Speaker 1: borrow money from Discover Card in order to be able 171 00:10:17,556 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: to have the money to invest. And so these were 172 00:10:21,396 --> 00:10:26,236 Speaker 1: institutions that obviously needed to have this money paid back 173 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 1: to them at some point in time, and so that's 174 00:10:29,956 --> 00:10:34,236 Speaker 1: that's where that money was set aside for and so 175 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: again I had lost the ability to essentially even make 176 00:10:37,276 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 1: monthly payments on those as well as payback the amounts 177 00:10:41,996 --> 00:10:42,956 Speaker 1: initially borrowed. 178 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:45,436 Speaker 3: So this essentially bankrupted you. 179 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 1: Well yeah, and I thought, well, you know, I had 180 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 1: a good job. I was working for a company called 181 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:54,476 Speaker 1: New at the time. But then in January of this year, 182 00:10:55,276 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 1: New laid off almost half of the workforce, I'd say, 183 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:03,756 Speaker 1: and I was an unfortunate member of that. And then 184 00:11:03,836 --> 00:11:06,596 Speaker 1: I was then it was like, okay, now I'm in 185 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:09,996 Speaker 1: real bad shape. And so you're absolutely right. I had 186 00:11:09,996 --> 00:11:14,116 Speaker 1: to file bankruptcy and had to offload a lot of assets, 187 00:11:14,316 --> 00:11:18,116 Speaker 1: just personal assets like TV, piano, these types of things 188 00:11:18,116 --> 00:11:21,436 Speaker 1: to try and kind of keep things on par. And 189 00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:24,916 Speaker 1: so it's been. It has completely changed the trajectory of 190 00:11:25,036 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: what I thought my life would be, at least right 191 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,276 Speaker 1: now and especially for probably the next five six years. 192 00:11:31,316 --> 00:11:33,276 Speaker 3: I'd say, do you think you're going to get your 193 00:11:33,276 --> 00:11:35,196 Speaker 3: money back? Oh? 194 00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:39,956 Speaker 1: Boy, that is the question. I don't know. I've seen 195 00:11:39,996 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: some press recently circulating that FTX is hoping to pay 196 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:48,876 Speaker 1: back something around ninety percent of creditors. It's just it's 197 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:53,276 Speaker 1: hard to It's hard to say because it just doesn't 198 00:11:53,316 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 1: seem like that is the case. And if it is, 199 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:00,476 Speaker 1: you know, what is the timeline of something like that. 200 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:04,356 Speaker 1: And the longer it takes, the less money it seems 201 00:12:04,356 --> 00:12:08,476 Speaker 1: that would be available due to whatever commitments that they have. 202 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: I like to think that there'd be some that we 203 00:12:12,036 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 1: get back, but right now I'm a little more skeptical 204 00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:19,236 Speaker 1: than I am positive in regards to seeing any of 205 00:12:19,236 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 1: my funds returning to me anytime soon, if at all. 206 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 3: I'm just curious. Out of the things you had to 207 00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:29,476 Speaker 3: sell after FTX crashed, what's the thing you missed the most? 208 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:33,996 Speaker 1: Oh, definitely the piano. I played from a very very 209 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:39,036 Speaker 1: young age and almost went to college or university for it, 210 00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 1: and music therapy for me is definitely a very positive 211 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:49,356 Speaker 1: and motivating stress reliever for me, and so that was very, 212 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: very very hard to part ways with and something I mean, 213 00:12:52,956 --> 00:12:55,676 Speaker 1: I had even brought it to Korea with me when 214 00:12:55,716 --> 00:12:58,796 Speaker 1: I was living there. That's how much I enjoy and 215 00:12:59,436 --> 00:13:03,636 Speaker 1: play piano. Was definitely one that I wish that I 216 00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 1: had not had to and seek to hopefully have another 217 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:08,876 Speaker 1: one at some point in the future. 218 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:18,196 Speaker 2: Stick around judging. Sam will be right back, welcome back. 219 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 3: What's it been like for you knowing that there's this 220 00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 3: criminal case against samankman Fred that's happening right now. 221 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:27,676 Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of the day, you know, 222 00:13:27,716 --> 00:13:29,756 Speaker 1: people have asked me, do you want to see him 223 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: go to prison? Do you think that he's guilty? And 224 00:13:33,236 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 1: I think those are all very valid questions, And of course, 225 00:13:36,916 --> 00:13:39,156 Speaker 1: if somebody commits a crime, you don't want to say 226 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:44,196 Speaker 1: they shouldn't should be held accountable, absolutely, But in this instance, 227 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:48,396 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to have a serious investment in 228 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 1: it either way, because again, his guilt or his innocence 229 00:13:54,836 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 1: doesn't make anyone whole. It doesn't really service anyone's actual 230 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:04,756 Speaker 1: need when it comes to financial stability. I wish that 231 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 1: the punishment was instead him having to have a little 232 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 1: bit more of a direct impact with the people that 233 00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 1: were victimized of this, as opposed to just having to 234 00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:18,156 Speaker 1: go away and hide somewhere and not really having to 235 00:14:18,236 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 1: face the music outside of isolation. And you know, retrospective 236 00:14:23,956 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, right, Like. 237 00:14:25,196 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 3: Rather than go to prison, he should have to like 238 00:14:27,556 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 3: work really hard to make the money back and be 239 00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:30,396 Speaker 3: able to give it back to you. 240 00:14:31,036 --> 00:14:33,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, come clean my house and do my dishes for me, 241 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:37,156 Speaker 1: and you know, walk my dog, and that I can think, right, 242 00:14:37,196 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: like face the people that were actually affected by this 243 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:47,076 Speaker 1: the most and realize that not all of us are 244 00:14:47,276 --> 00:14:51,476 Speaker 1: sons of affluent parents, that you work at prestigious universities, 245 00:14:51,636 --> 00:14:54,596 Speaker 1: or that all of us had billions of dollars handed 246 00:14:54,636 --> 00:14:57,876 Speaker 1: to us because we could sell things really well. A 247 00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: lot of people were average citizens, and some of them 248 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 1: had their entire life savings wrapped up in these things, right, 249 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:10,116 Speaker 1: just to see it completely vanish with no with no 250 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:11,996 Speaker 1: roadmap for how to move forward. 251 00:15:12,556 --> 00:15:14,956 Speaker 3: Sam bankmin Fried is likely to take the stand this 252 00:15:15,036 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 3: week in your you know what would you what would 253 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:19,356 Speaker 3: you like him to say? What would you like to 254 00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:21,476 Speaker 3: hear from him? 255 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:24,076 Speaker 1: Well, I would want him to say, in all sincerity, 256 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:27,076 Speaker 1: is that you know he wants to help and that 257 00:15:27,116 --> 00:15:29,956 Speaker 1: he wants to you know, he sees the damage that 258 00:15:30,036 --> 00:15:32,796 Speaker 1: has done and it really wants to try and rectify that. 259 00:15:32,996 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 1: But from what I have seen so far, it doesn't 260 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: seem like that is going to be the scenario. 261 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:42,596 Speaker 3: Has this experience changed how you feel about crypto? 262 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:48,836 Speaker 1: Oh? Of course, yeah, definitely. It has changed my understanding 263 00:15:49,116 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 1: and kind of reliance on it as something I feel 264 00:15:53,396 --> 00:15:57,596 Speaker 1: could benefit me and my active participation have taken all 265 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:00,316 Speaker 1: of my money out. I haven't paid attention at all. 266 00:16:00,956 --> 00:16:04,236 Speaker 1: I haven't even thought about it, and I don't know 267 00:16:04,276 --> 00:16:07,196 Speaker 1: if I will ever jump back into it. There might 268 00:16:07,236 --> 00:16:11,836 Speaker 1: be a period time which I will, but I don't 269 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 1: really trust that process anymore. I'm very, very, very very 270 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:18,836 Speaker 1: reluctant to try and jump back in at any point 271 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:19,316 Speaker 1: in time. 272 00:16:19,796 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 3: In what ways has this whole thing changed you as 273 00:16:22,516 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 3: a person? 274 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: Do you think I have a very different relationship to 275 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 1: people that they get into hard time. I realized through 276 00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:35,916 Speaker 1: all of this how difficult it is when something like 277 00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:39,636 Speaker 1: this happens and you know you're not in a position 278 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:44,036 Speaker 1: to be able to bail yourself out or there is 279 00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:47,316 Speaker 1: no help on the back end. It's kind of a 280 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:53,556 Speaker 1: never ending spiral. I was sued by my creditors, Chase Discoverer, 281 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: and then another private firm that does like personal loans 282 00:16:57,596 --> 00:17:01,116 Speaker 1: for these types of things. Almost immediately after I could 283 00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: make a couple of the payments, and I'm thinking to myself, why, 284 00:17:05,916 --> 00:17:09,316 Speaker 1: like the few thousand dollars that I borrowed at the 285 00:17:09,356 --> 00:17:12,876 Speaker 1: end of the day, these are billion dollar organizations, why 286 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: did they care? And you know, that kind of aggressive 287 00:17:18,556 --> 00:17:23,556 Speaker 1: stance really puts people in this situation of making more mistakes, 288 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:29,276 Speaker 1: of becoming overly anxious and fearing that system. It has 289 00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:32,076 Speaker 1: changed my perspective on that and changed, frankly, the way 290 00:17:32,076 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 1: that I have had to live in the way I've 291 00:17:34,196 --> 00:17:36,756 Speaker 1: had to manage my life and the things that I 292 00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 1: have had to accept and be willing to give up, 293 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:45,356 Speaker 1: like my house, my possessions and the house well, I 294 00:17:45,396 --> 00:17:47,636 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, that's that's one thing that's still being 295 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:52,596 Speaker 1: determined as part of the bankruptcy. If it is deemed 296 00:17:53,116 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: a asset that is valuable enough to potentially cover some 297 00:17:58,916 --> 00:18:04,076 Speaker 1: of the losses that I owe, then yeah, it would be. 298 00:18:04,116 --> 00:18:06,636 Speaker 1: It would be part of the bargaining ships in that. 299 00:18:07,836 --> 00:18:09,596 Speaker 1: I don't know how many people you've been able to 300 00:18:09,596 --> 00:18:11,236 Speaker 1: get a hold of, but it seems like a lot 301 00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:15,636 Speaker 1: of customers in my position have been very closed lipped 302 00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:16,916 Speaker 1: about wanted to share. 303 00:18:17,036 --> 00:18:18,876 Speaker 3: So, yeah, why do you think that is. 304 00:18:21,716 --> 00:18:27,596 Speaker 1: My theory on it is it's like my parents are 305 00:18:27,636 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: a little worried about this season, Like, aren't you worried 306 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:33,276 Speaker 1: about exposure? And I said, what exposure? Exactly? Like if 307 00:18:33,276 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 1: people think that I'm an dumb person for investing in 308 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:40,356 Speaker 1: crypto and then losing all my money, which I think 309 00:18:40,436 --> 00:18:43,276 Speaker 1: is kind of already the narrative, right, Yes, there's been 310 00:18:43,316 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 1: a lot of fluctuation in the typt of markets, but like, 311 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 1: people haven't had their entire lives destroyed by crypto at 312 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:54,916 Speaker 1: this volume because of personal indiscretion. This is a whole 313 00:18:55,036 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 1: other type of thing, and I think people are afraid 314 00:18:57,916 --> 00:19:02,996 Speaker 1: to publicly be seen as you know, the face of 315 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:04,476 Speaker 1: what people already assume. 316 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it totally makes sense. I mean, I guess 317 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:10,116 Speaker 3: it's scary and hard to like to having been a 318 00:19:10,156 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 3: victim of something. 319 00:19:11,436 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 1: Right, you know, people always have a hard time being 320 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:21,156 Speaker 1: or associated with something that people might have a thought of, 321 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:23,236 Speaker 1: like well, if you hadn't done this, you would be 322 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 1: in this situation, and more of that guilt and association 323 00:19:26,956 --> 00:19:30,316 Speaker 1: than like I'm sorry for you. That's not fun. There 324 00:19:30,356 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 1: should be action taken other places. It's normally a victim 325 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,276 Speaker 1: blaming game, and I think people just wanted to avoid 326 00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:37,796 Speaker 1: that take. 327 00:19:37,916 --> 00:19:40,356 Speaker 3: Zachery, thank you so much for your time and I 328 00:19:40,396 --> 00:19:41,836 Speaker 3: hope one day you get your piano back. 329 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:44,876 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, thanks for having me and appreciate it, 330 00:19:44,916 --> 00:19:46,876 Speaker 1: and good luck with everything else. 331 00:19:48,996 --> 00:19:51,916 Speaker 2: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia Jean Kott. 332 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:56,036 Speaker 2: Our court reporter Catherine Gerardau and Nisha Venken produced this show. 333 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:59,756 Speaker 2: Sophie Crane is our editor. Our music was composed by 334 00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 2: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of stell Wagon Sephanette. Judging 335 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:07,436 Speaker 2: Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question 336 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 2: or comment for me, There's a website for that atr 337 00:20:10,756 --> 00:20:16,996 Speaker 2: podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To find 338 00:20:17,036 --> 00:20:20,876 Speaker 2: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 339 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:24,396 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like 340 00:20:24,436 --> 00:20:28,316 Speaker 2: to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget 341 00:20:28,316 --> 00:20:31,116 Speaker 2: to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin 342 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:35,156 Speaker 2: dot fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple show page.