Speaker 1: The part about my job that I love the most
Speaker 1: is talking to patients, spending time with them, explaining answering
Speaker 1: their questions on more of a human level than sometimes
Speaker 1: um that you would get in a busy hospital. Alex
Speaker 1: McCutcheon says she went into medicine because she wanted to
Speaker 1: help people. One of my friends had told me, I
Speaker 1: think you'd be a really good obstetrician. Alex lives in Darwin,
Speaker 1: in Australia's Northern Territory. When she was in high school
Speaker 1: in suburban Melbourne, Alex looked into becoming a midwife, and
Speaker 1: at a career spare, she watched instructors explain the childbirth process.
Speaker 1: It got to a point during a simulation of an
Speaker 1: obstetric patient that they said, all right, now this is
Speaker 1: where we stop. We'll have to go and get the doctor.
Speaker 1: You'd have to go and get the obstetrician. And I said,
Speaker 1: how what what about that? What can I do that?
Speaker 1: And they said, oh, you'd have to go to medical school.
Speaker 1: So I went to medical school. Last forward to early
Speaker 1: Alex's entering her second year working as a fully qualified
Speaker 1: doctor when she hears news of a novel coronavirus emerging
Speaker 1: in China. The first place I heard about it when
Speaker 1: it was when I was in Argentina in January and
Speaker 1: the person that I was backpacking with he said, oh,
Speaker 1: have you heard about this coronavirus? And from from a
Speaker 1: science background, I just thought, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: What coronavirus? They're they're a family of viruses, which particular
Speaker 1: one are you talking about? And then it just snowballed
Speaker 1: from there. Patients are already coming to the Metropolitan Hospital
Speaker 1: with the disease by the time Alex gets back to Melbourne.
Speaker 1: Because you'd see young patients come in who were COVID
Speaker 1: positive and you can't help but think this could be me,
Speaker 1: or this could be a friend of mine, or this
Speaker 1: could be a family member. So it was it was
Speaker 1: a scary time to work. A few months later, cases
Speaker 1: are escalating and Alex is working on a general medical
Speaker 1: award when she starts feeling off. I was doing run
Speaker 1: of seven nights in a row and I was on
Speaker 1: my seventh night and it was about two am and
Speaker 1: I was walking around the wards thinking, oh, I'm a
Speaker 1: bit short of breath. I shouldn't be. I my heart
Speaker 1: rate didn't drop below a hundred so I thought, maybe
Speaker 1: something's up here, and I've been treating a lot of
Speaker 1: positive patients throughout the week um and towards the end
Speaker 1: of the shift, I got really sore all over my body.
Speaker 1: I couldn't really ignore those symptoms, so I went straight
Speaker 1: away to go and get tested. The test comes back positive,
Speaker 1: so Alex goes to a hotel. Australia uses hotels as
Speaker 1: quarantine centers to try to prevent the coronavirus spreading in
Speaker 1: the community. About a week into her infection, Alex gets
Speaker 1: a running nose and cough, and then a few days
Speaker 1: later she completely loses her sense of smell and taste.
Speaker 1: I remember having a green curry delivered to my hotel quarantine,
Speaker 1: and I filmed myself putting my face right up against it,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't not smell a single thing. I could
Speaker 1: taste that it was hot, and I could taste that
Speaker 1: it had some texture, but beyond that, I could not
Speaker 1: taste a single thing. And I also put my head
Speaker 1: in a coffee bag and that smelt nothing. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of weird videos that came out of COVID quarantine.
Speaker 1: Alex is eventually clear to leave quarantine, but her distorted
Speaker 1: sense of smell and taste persist. More than a year later,
Speaker 1: She's still suffering the consequences of catching COVID nineteen. It's
Speaker 1: unclear how long her symptoms will last, but Alex isn't
Speaker 1: alone and being plagued by the effects of the coronavirus
Speaker 1: long past her recovery from the initial stages of the illness.
Speaker 1: There haven't been any studies published yet estimating the global
Speaker 1: prevalence of patients like Alex, but at least one inten
Speaker 1: COVID patients have symptoms six months later, so the number
Speaker 1: of these so called long haulers could run well into
Speaker 1: the millions, if not tens of millions, well t wide.
Speaker 1: Once Alex loses her sense of smell, she knows exactly
Speaker 1: who to contact. It's been a very, very fruitful friendship.
Speaker 1: And then, obviously, when I got the very sad news
Speaker 1: that Alex was diagnosed with COVID, she Facebook message me.
Speaker 1: I think the message said a bit of fun news,
Speaker 1: I have COVID, you said it'll be right. That's Dr
Speaker 1: lea Bencham. She's a neuroscientist who studies smell. Alex and
Speaker 1: Lee are best friends. They've known each other for more
Speaker 1: than a decade inside, I was panicking um and then
Speaker 1: I asked her if she could smell, and she said, well,
Speaker 1: I can't taste. And then I actually sent her an
Speaker 1: olfactory kit in the in the hotel because I worked
Speaker 1: with those a lot, and I quantified her sense of
Speaker 1: smell and she did or abysmally. I spoke with Leah
Speaker 1: and Alex at the same time in a studio at
Speaker 1: the University of Melbourne where they both studied. Alex and
Speaker 1: returned for a short visit. This is the story of
Speaker 1: two friends, two doctors in fact, who were trying to
Speaker 1: understand one of the most common signs of COVID night team.
Speaker 1: The loss of the sense of smell or old faction,
Speaker 1: affects almost one and every two people who get the
Speaker 1: pandemic disease. Usually it resolves within a week or two.
Speaker 1: For some, like Alex, smell and taste distortions persist, leaving
Speaker 1: an invisible illness that leads to a profound disruption to
Speaker 1: their daily life that affects their mood and relationships. But
Speaker 1: scientists are learning that its significance doesn't end there. This
Speaker 1: is also a story about living with a mysterious condition
Speaker 1: that may have a lasting impact on health. Evidence is
Speaker 1: emerging that COVID survivors like Alex could face even worse
Speaker 1: neurological issues later in life. I'm Jason Galas, Senior Editor
Speaker 1: and Chief by a security correspondent at Bloomberg News. From
Speaker 1: the Prognosis podcast. This is breakthrough Lea and Alex meant
Speaker 1: just before beginning their first year at university. We were
Speaker 1: in a car on the way to an orientation camp
Speaker 1: and we met in the backseat and may have shared
Speaker 1: a bag of coon and we have been really good
Speaker 1: friends ever since. First friends. Goon listeners is an australianism
Speaker 1: that refers to wine that's sold in a plastic bag
Speaker 1: inside a cardboard box. After that, Lea and Alex stay
Speaker 1: close throughout undergrad and then Alex popped off to do
Speaker 1: postgraduate medicine and I popped off to do postgraduate biomedical science.
Speaker 1: We lived together during our postgraduate years. Odship is just
Speaker 1: a tipping balance between beer and science. Really. Leahel works
Speaker 1: at the University of Melbourne's floor Re Institute of Neuroscience
Speaker 1: and Mental Health. It's one of the world's largest brain
Speaker 1: research centers. After Leah gets the message about Alex's positive
Speaker 1: COVID tests. She says she wants to see how badly
Speaker 1: Alex has lost a sense of smell. Scientists have a
Speaker 1: standardized way of testing one's ability to detect sense and odors.
Speaker 1: It's a type of scratch and sniff test. It requires
Speaker 1: users to smell odorant molecules from separate panels in a
Speaker 1: series of booklets and then indicate which of four multiple
Speaker 1: choice answers best characterizes each smell. Users get a grad
Speaker 1: out of forty. Alex failed spectacularly. A nosmere and dyscousia
Speaker 1: are terms doctors used to describe a loss or impaired
Speaker 1: sense of smell and taste. People sometimes lose these senses
Speaker 1: in the early stages of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases, but
Speaker 1: short term losses occur more frequently with upper respiratory tract infections. COVID, though,
Speaker 1: has added another dimension. Leah says, we don't really know
Speaker 1: why the coronavirus results in longer term effects on smell
Speaker 1: and taste. Initially it was thought to be because of inflammation,
Speaker 1: like the block nose you gave with a cold. I
Speaker 1: think it was a symptom that was ignored because It
Speaker 1: was very much thought of you've got a block nose.
Speaker 1: Of course you've lost your sense of smell. But then
Speaker 1: more and more data was coming out about people who
Speaker 1: had no other symptoms, that only symptom was a loss
Speaker 1: of spell. They had hyperson out, they didn't even have
Speaker 1: a running nose, and we started looking at that data
Speaker 1: and thinking there was there was more to it. There
Speaker 1: was also the belief that any lost sense of smell
Speaker 1: would be recovered within a month. It turns out that
Speaker 1: was based more on optimism than evidence. A study in
Speaker 1: the Journal of Internal Medicine and January found almost a
Speaker 1: quarter of sufferers hadn't recovered that sense of smell after
Speaker 1: two months, and by six months five were still living
Speaker 1: with the derangement. And we have no idea why. What
Speaker 1: we do know is that the coronavirus targets are protein
Speaker 1: on the surface of cells that lie the airways from
Speaker 1: the nose to the furthest reaches of the lungs inside
Speaker 1: the nasal cavity. The cells the coronavirus targets are right
Speaker 1: alongside the nerves that tell the brain what odors are
Speaker 1: being detected. Leah says it makes the nose a particularly
Speaker 1: interesting part of the body to study. This area of
Speaker 1: the nose is fascinating. It's one of the reasons I
Speaker 1: got into olfactory science in that there are brain cells
Speaker 1: that project down into that region. So it's actually an
Speaker 1: area of your body where your central nervous system is
Speaker 1: exposed to the environment, and that makes that region particularly vulnerable.
Speaker 1: These nerve cells protrude the bone in the skull that
Speaker 1: separates the nasal cavity from the brain. The bone is
Speaker 1: perforated like Swiss cheese. Some scientists contend that the loss
Speaker 1: of smell and COVID patients results from the virus infecting
Speaker 1: the nose and causing inflammation there that subsequently damages these
Speaker 1: olfactory neurons or nerve cells, but that doesn't really hold
Speaker 1: up when you're talking about a year down the track,
Speaker 1: there shouldn't be any more of this acute inflammation. Leah
Speaker 1: has some other theories. So one is that because of
Speaker 1: these neurons that project into the nose directly from the brain,
Speaker 1: the virus is actually able to get into those neurons
Speaker 1: and it's able to get into your brain, therefore causing
Speaker 1: damage because you have viral particles in your brain. That's
Speaker 1: one hypothesis. The other is that it's not able to
Speaker 1: get into your brain, but it can get close enough
Speaker 1: to those neurons that it can trigger an inflammatory response.
Speaker 1: Lea says that from there, the inflammatory response can cause
Speaker 1: a reaction that still harms the brain. Some scientists have
Speaker 1: published research showing that the virus can get into the brain.
Speaker 1: Others have published research showing that it can't. Intriguingly, scientists
Speaker 1: at the past Institute in Paris describe finding the sanskvt
Speaker 1: virus in the cells that line the roof of the
Speaker 1: nasal cavity in a half a dozen patients who lost
Speaker 1: their sense of smell for months. I spoke with Dr
Speaker 1: p M Marie Leto, neuroscientists who led the study, which
Speaker 1: was published in Science Translational Medicine back in June, and
Speaker 1: one of our surprise came when we find in fact
Speaker 1: that for all of them, we could find the presence
Speaker 1: of the viruses in the sensory organs, explaining why those
Speaker 1: people were impaired in recovering this sense, which was very
Speaker 1: surprising for us because several publications at least report that
Speaker 1: old factory censory neurons located in the old factory organ
Speaker 1: where those centory neurons were not expressing the receptor for
Speaker 1: the for the various is therefore they should not be infected.
Speaker 1: The French scientists found protein made by the coronavirus as
Speaker 1: well as antibodies against it, but they weren't able to
Speaker 1: demonstrate that TASKOV two can replicate in the sensory organ
Speaker 1: It's something P. M. Marie is still exploring because if
Speaker 1: they're still viable or infectious virus particles there, that could
Speaker 1: have consequent answers for transmission. If with dealing with replicative
Speaker 1: viruses in the Austrila, those people might be contagious by
Speaker 1: by just breathing, they will be spreading the viruses around them.
Speaker 1: So it's it's a it's a question that we are
Speaker 1: now following by recruiting more and more people brooding chronicling
Speaker 1: their old factions in order to address this question. So
Speaker 1: this is under investigation. Lea says there's no agreement among
Speaker 1: scientists about whether the virus is able to persist in
Speaker 1: the body, much less the nostrils. I think it's a
Speaker 1: good theory, though. Lea says it fits with another theory
Speaker 1: that scientists have mentioned several times in our earlier episodes
Speaker 1: that involves the consequences of immunization against the coronavirus. There's
Speaker 1: anecdotal evidence. None of this is published because it's very
Speaker 1: hard to quantify, but people have come out and said
Speaker 1: that after they've been vaccinated, they feel the symptoms of
Speaker 1: long covid getting better. They are not necessarily fully recovering,
Speaker 1: and some people notice nothing. Some people feel like they're
Speaker 1: a bit worse. But there are a large number of
Speaker 1: peabloo say I can actually smell a little bit better
Speaker 1: two weeks after the vaccinated, and that really lends itself
Speaker 1: to this reservoir hypothesis, because maybe your immune system wasn't
Speaker 1: able to clear that last little bit virus that's sitting
Speaker 1: in your ethelial cells, but a vaccine, which is a
Speaker 1: much sort of more direct approach at boosting the immune system,
Speaker 1: was able to clear it. So I think it's definitely
Speaker 1: got legs, but I think it's very early on um
Speaker 1: and we need many more studies to replicate it for
Speaker 1: us to say this is actually what's happening. There's still
Speaker 1: a lot of questions around how long COVID causes us
Speaker 1: to lose some of our senses. While scientists are accumulating
Speaker 1: evidence about the virus and its long term impacts on
Speaker 1: biological processes such as aging. There's been a lot of
Speaker 1: research published documenting the ways in which the brain is
Speaker 1: damaged following a saskvy to infection. There's inflammation, blood clots,
Speaker 1: and hemorrhages, not to mention respiratory failure that can cut
Speaker 1: off oxygen supply. But another aspect of COVID has surprise
Speaker 1: researchers in recent months, the loss of brain tissue. That's right,
Speaker 1: COVID is associated with brain shrinkage. A study in June
Speaker 1: from the University of Oxford, released a head of peer
Speaker 1: review and publication, found gray amount of deficits were more
Speaker 1: likely in patients who had had COVID than those who
Speaker 1: were never infected with the coronavirus. It was a unique
Speaker 1: study that used medical records and brain scans from patients
Speaker 1: taken before the pandemic. The researchers then invited hundreds of
Speaker 1: these patients back for another round of m r I
Speaker 1: brain imaging. There were marked differences between those who have
Speaker 1: been infected with COVID nineteen and those who had not
Speaker 1: in terms of gray manner, which is made up of
Speaker 1: the seal bodies of neurons that process information in the brain.
Speaker 1: More interesting still, there was a loss of brain volume
Speaker 1: even in COVID patients not sick enough to require hospitalization.
Speaker 1: The findings haven't been published in a scientific journal, but
Speaker 1: Leah says the study offers important insights into what might
Speaker 1: be going on inside the brains of long haulers. This
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most impressive papers that I've
Speaker 1: ever read. It is, and what they've shown is that
Speaker 1: quite scarily, actually there's there's a loss of gray matter
Speaker 1: in a number of regions of the brain. Most of
Speaker 1: them are related to olfactory and gustatory pathways, which explains
Speaker 1: why potentially many people are not recovering their sen's a
Speaker 1: smell or even if they have recovered it, it's not
Speaker 1: fully recovered um because you've actually you've you've actually lost
Speaker 1: brain tissue in those regions. And there's also some indications
Speaker 1: that the limbic region might be involved. Lea says that
Speaker 1: the part of the sing that COVID appears to shrink
Speaker 1: affects mood regulation. This might explain why anxiety, depression, and
Speaker 1: brain fog are common symptoms of long COVID. We're seeing
Speaker 1: huge numbers of anxiety above and beyond what we would
Speaker 1: have expected in long COVID. But it's not just that
Speaker 1: COVID can affect mood. Scientists predict that it will also
Speaker 1: be associated with longer term neurological problems like dementia. Lea
Speaker 1: says inflammation caused by COVID essentially primes the brain for
Speaker 1: further injury down the road. And once your brain is primed,
Speaker 1: if you get another hit later in life, like another
Speaker 1: severe virus, viral infection that gets into your brain, or
Speaker 1: you're exposed to a toxin, you're closer to the edge
Speaker 1: because your brain is primed and it's ready to overfire.
Speaker 1: And when it does that and the new inflammation takes hold,
Speaker 1: it's going to kill cells faster. So we're talking here
Speaker 1: about not COVID causing any of these diseases, but it's
Speaker 1: just an increased risk factor that we need to be
Speaker 1: aware of that a very large population of the world
Speaker 1: has now had. Leah says that because COVID affects so
Speaker 1: many different parts of the brain and its functions like memory,
Speaker 1: it could predispose degenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's. She's particularly
Speaker 1: concerned about what this could mean for Parkinson's disease too.
Speaker 1: It's a disorder of the central nervous system that affects movement.
Speaker 1: About ten million people worldwide have the condition, and the
Speaker 1: number is growing, in part because age is a major
Speaker 1: risk factor and humans are living longer. So at the
Speaker 1: moment we're actually living through a Parkinson's pandemic. It's doubled
Speaker 1: in the last twenty years our incidents, and it's set
Speaker 1: to double again, and that's after we correct for the
Speaker 1: aging population. Now that we've just added covid in, there's
Speaker 1: a chance that we have just even the slightest shift
Speaker 1: of people more likely to get Parkinson's that could push
Speaker 1: us into numbers that we can't cope with. Parkinson's is
Speaker 1: a very long disease. It's a very expensive disease. We
Speaker 1: don't have disease modifying drugs or we can do is
Speaker 1: help you symptomatically for a few years until that stops working.
Speaker 1: It's really scary and we need to be really vigilant.
Speaker 1: There was a surge in cases of Parkinson's disease in
Speaker 1: the decades following the nineteen eighteen Spanish influenza pandemic. Epidemiologists
Speaker 1: determined that Spanish flu survivors had a two to three
Speaker 1: times higher risk of developing Parkinson's now term viral parkinson
Speaker 1: Is UM compared with those who didn't get the deadly
Speaker 1: flu strain. If a similar effect were to occur in
Speaker 1: the wake of COVID, Leah says EQUOD cripple health systems.
Speaker 1: There's warning bells, and where we're trying to listen to
Speaker 1: those warning bells, I think because we don't want to
Speaker 1: be caught off guard and our community itself. Would you know,
Speaker 1: most people who are diagnosed with Parkinson's are still of
Speaker 1: working age. We can't lose that workforce loss, so there's
Speaker 1: an economic side to it as well. We need to
Speaker 1: be really prepared and the only way we're going to
Speaker 1: do that is to keep studying it and preparing as best. Weekend,
Speaker 1: as we sit in the studio in Melbourne, Lea in
Speaker 1: our sitting side by side, Alex knows that when Lea
Speaker 1: talks about the future risks around long COVID, she's talking
Speaker 1: about pretty frightening things that she could face one day.
Speaker 1: It's a bit hard to listen to. I have known
Speaker 1: Lea for a very long time and She's been very
Speaker 1: frank and honest with me about the research and the
Speaker 1: places that this could go. That's why I think research
Speaker 1: likely is is so amazing that we can be putting
Speaker 1: money into finding the exact mechanisms behind how this happens.
Speaker 1: Why why does one person get more affected than another person?
Speaker 1: Are the things that they could have changed in their
Speaker 1: life or their lifestyle factors that could have been different
Speaker 1: that makes them less or more susceptible to a disease
Speaker 1: and to long term COVID as well. Some of alex
Speaker 1: the smell has come back, but she says it's not
Speaker 1: the same. It's quite sad not being able to smell
Speaker 1: and taste the things that you have loved before. I
Speaker 1: was previously quite into my beer and craft beer. I
Speaker 1: used to brew beer at home, and I now don't
Speaker 1: really like dark beer, which is it's maybe trivial to
Speaker 1: some people, but it's really sad to me. I don't
Speaker 1: like particular foods that I used to make. I make
Speaker 1: dumplings quite a lot with friends, and I can't eat
Speaker 1: them now because it tastes like COVID. I don't know
Speaker 1: how to describe what that taste is. It doesn't taste
Speaker 1: like anything that I've tasted pre COVID, but it reminds
Speaker 1: me of particular time in my life, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: taste good. Alex says she's fortunate her loss of smell
Speaker 1: hasn't depressed her. I think I've had a lot of
Speaker 1: support from my friends and family about being able to
Speaker 1: talk about the ways that it's affected me. It has
Speaker 1: certainly removed a lot of the pleasure in tasting food,
Speaker 1: and I don't get a lot out of fine dining
Speaker 1: experiences now that other people might find. But I'm also
Speaker 1: part of a Facebook community of people who have lost
Speaker 1: their smell and taste, and there are some really tragic
Speaker 1: stories of people not being able to smell their kids
Speaker 1: anymore and how much that upsets them, and how they're
Speaker 1: now six eighteen months down the truck from their COVID
Speaker 1: diagnosis and they still don't get any enjoyment from tasting food.
Speaker 1: She's clearly concerned about the fact that long COVID might
Speaker 1: continue to affect her, and that the full extent of
Speaker 1: her infection might not be revealed for decades. I think
Speaker 1: the respiratory symptoms may play out in the next ten
Speaker 1: to twenty years. I don't have a scientific base for
Speaker 1: that prediction. I think that as a fit, healthy person
Speaker 1: that can still run five case if I need to,
Speaker 1: I don't think my lungs have been that horribly scarred,
Speaker 1: but I would not rule out getting some kind of
Speaker 1: interstitial lung disease in my thirties or forties or fifties,
Speaker 1: which is really scary. Interstitial lung disease is a pretty
Speaker 1: horrible condition that causes the development of fibratic scar tissue.
Speaker 1: Eventually the lungs become brittle and resemble honeycomb. In the US,
Speaker 1: there's already been a big jump in double lung transplants
Speaker 1: and COVID survivors because of this. I don't want to
Speaker 1: die prematurely. I don't want to have a chronic disease
Speaker 1: that leaves me on oxygen at home. That's not the
Speaker 1: future that I envisaged for myself. But I also know
Speaker 1: that I'm very lucky in that I don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of other symptoms of long COVID. So I don't
Speaker 1: have the memory fog, I don't have the anxiety or depression.
Speaker 1: I don't have the crippling fatigue, I don't have the
Speaker 1: motor symptoms yet, So I also feel quite guilty when
Speaker 1: I talk about losing my sense of smell and taste,
Speaker 1: because I know that so many other people, including my
Speaker 1: patients that I treated at the time, have it so
Speaker 1: much worse. Alex says, hairy experience of COVID and it's
Speaker 1: alarming consequences will at least help it be a been
Speaker 1: a family doctor. I think it's it's scary to know
Speaker 1: that I might have a shortened lifespan. Potentially, I might
Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's earlier, I might develop Parkinson's, I might end
Speaker 1: up one oxygen. But I can't change any of these things.
Speaker 1: All I can do is as a GP in the future,
Speaker 1: I can look after patients who have had COVID. I
Speaker 1: can support them through that and just impress upon other
Speaker 1: people the seriousness of COVID and the importance of getting vaccinated.
Speaker 1: The legacy of COVID is still emerging, and we won't
Speaker 1: know the full extent of its economic and social impacts
Speaker 1: or the repercussions on health for decades. But the more
Speaker 1: we learn about the coronavirus and after it thanks, the
Speaker 1: more it's showing to be an infection. We should do
Speaker 1: whatever we can to avoid h that's it for this
Speaker 1: episode of Prognosis Breakthrough. On the next episode, my colleague
Speaker 1: John Lawman goes into a Boston hospital to learn how
Speaker 1: the pandemic has reshaped health services. COVID is leaving indelible
Speaker 1: marks not just on patience, but also on those delivering
Speaker 1: medical care. I'm hearing more more clinicians now who say
Speaker 1: I cried all the way to work. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to get up this morning. I love my job, I
Speaker 1: usually love my job. I don't want to go to work.
Speaker 1: It's too hard, it's too much. This episode of Prognosis
Speaker 1: for Through was written and reported by me Jason gale
Speaker 1: Jo for Forehes is our senior producer. Cole Kevin Robinson Jr.
Speaker 1: Is our associate producer. Special thanks to Chris hatss A.
Speaker 1: Theme music was composed and performed by Hannes Brown. Rick
Speaker 1: Shin is our editor. Francesco Levi is the head of
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcasts. Be sure to subscribe if you haven't already,
Speaker 1: and if you liked this episode, please leave us a review.
Speaker 1: It helps others to find out about the show. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.