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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist, have you ever had the feeling that

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Speaker 1: you're in a place you shouldn't be?

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Speaker 2: Only every day of my life, buddy.

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Speaker 1: You ever walk in and you know, like the vibes off,

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Speaker 1: or you wake up and you know, like, how did

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Speaker 1: I get on this plane?

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Speaker 2: Are we talking about a specific place? This is not

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Speaker 2: my beautiful house, nor is this my beautiful life. This is

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Speaker 2: a windowless room and I'm tied to a chair with

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Speaker 2: a bag over my head. That's a hold on what.

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Speaker 1: A non consentually? Yet, this is the true story that

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Speaker 1: we explored in twenty nineteen. Here in these United States,

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Speaker 1: for now, people accused of crimes are theoretically entitled to

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Speaker 1: certain well known legal protections. And if you scope out

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Speaker 1: to the globe overall, you'll see things like the Geneva

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Speaker 1: Conventions that guarantee certain rights to prisoners of war. However,

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Speaker 1: the theory does not always translate to the practice, does it.

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Speaker 2: Now, there's some big butts in there, guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, are we both waiting for that Brazilian Buttlet's.

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Speaker 2: Joke, it was there all along.

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Speaker 3: Please please do not get a BBL at a black site.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it. Yeah, that's a place to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, black sites, we're uh, we're laughing by the gallows

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Speaker 1: because there is no whistle like a graveyard whistle. Black

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Speaker 1: sites are terrible. They're real. They are a violation of

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Speaker 1: international law. They are an active conspiracy, both in twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen when we originally recorded this and in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five as we record today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, call that because they don't exist, right, that's the concept.

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Speaker 2: And yikes, where you get disappeared too.

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Speaker 1: That's roll the tape from UFOs to psychic powers and

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Speaker 1: government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can

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Speaker 1: turn back now or learn this stuff. They do want

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Speaker 1: you to know. A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.

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Speaker 3: Name is Nolan.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben, and we are joined as always

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Speaker 1: with our super producer, Paul Mission Control Decant. Most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. If you want

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Speaker 1: to be a part of the conversation as we delve

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Speaker 1: into today's rabbit hole, you don't have to wait till

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Speaker 1: the end of the show. You can just give us

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Speaker 1: a call directly and then you know, oh, push pause,

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Speaker 1: give us a call and then push play.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and make sure your vehicle is not in motion

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Speaker 3: and you're not driving.

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Speaker 1: Or that you have one of those cool voice activated ones.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, and where should they point their telephonic device? Fellas well?

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Speaker 3: You type in the numbers one eight three three std

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Speaker 3: witk Yeah, give us.

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Speaker 1: A call three minutes. Choose your time wisely and let

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Speaker 1: us know if you have something that you do not

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Speaker 1: want to end up on the air.

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Speaker 2: Just please be explicit, you know, you guys here in Atlanta,

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Speaker 2: I'm often taken in by these fake rap songs that

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Speaker 2: are on the radio that are actually just advertisements for

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Speaker 2: like one eight hundred, you know, buy gold or like

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Speaker 2: an ambulance chaser type attorney. There's a few of them

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Speaker 2: that are really good.

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Speaker 1: They're great, and I'll always.

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Speaker 2: Like find myself bopping to them, and then I'm like,

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Speaker 2: got it, got me again when they drop the call

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Speaker 2: to action. You know.

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Speaker 1: I like the I Have No Regrets. I like the

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Speaker 1: ones of sick verses. And there are a few out

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Speaker 1: there actually where you're like, I know this is an ad,

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Speaker 1: but it slaps.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: There's one called one hundred and forty one one pain nice,

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Speaker 2: that's the big one.

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Speaker 3: My favorite is uh one eight three three cars for

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Speaker 3: kids five seven two four five for kids.

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Speaker 1: Boom airhorn. Maybe that's it. Uh Yes, So we recently

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Speaker 1: did it episode diving into the strange story of closed cities.

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Speaker 1: These are places that in some cases did not or

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Speaker 1: do not officially exist.

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Speaker 2: Many of them are.

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Speaker 1: Radiated, and many of them are Cold War relics located

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Speaker 1: in Russia, but not all of them. It's an interesting

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Speaker 1: story and it may hit close to home for some

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Speaker 1: of our fellow listeners. Today we're looking at something kind

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Speaker 1: of related, another sort of invisible place, a place where

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Speaker 1: people officially disappear. So here are the facts. First prisons,

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Speaker 1: really starting on an up note today, guys, prisons are

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Speaker 1: an ugly fact of every nation's existence. And if you

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Speaker 1: have ever researched this or done some cursory googling in

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Speaker 1: your time on the internet, you have found that some prisons,

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Speaker 1: like those in Norway, are held up as models of

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Speaker 1: successful rehabilitation. There's a lot of good and bad press

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Speaker 1: out there about Norway's prisons. People who consider themselves hard

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Speaker 1: on crime will say that Norway is coddling criminals, and

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Speaker 1: people who consider themselves. I don't know, maybe more progressive

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Speaker 1: or people who have studied recidivism rates will say that

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Speaker 1: Norway is enormously successful rehabilitating prisoners. And you know what,

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Speaker 1: you can't lie. You can pull up the pictures, you

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Speaker 1: can check out the prisons. They are very nice, considering

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Speaker 1: that their prisons they don't look like jails or prisons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and some of the best attorneys in the world

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Speaker 2: have come out of Norwegian prisons or they got their degrees.

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Speaker 2: I did not know that. Well, well, hanging out in

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Speaker 2: bubble baths. It's not true. Oh okay, sorry, I'm still

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Speaker 2: back on the lawyer rap tip. But you know, there's

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Speaker 2: definitely a broad spectrum of the types of activities and

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Speaker 2: things that go on in prisons, Norway possibly being the

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Speaker 2: extreme and the positive or you know, if you're hard

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Speaker 2: on crime, you can say in the negative.

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Speaker 3: But well, yeah, focusing on getting a person who's incarcerated

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Speaker 3: back to existing and functioning within normalized society, that's one extreme.

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Speaker 2: That's one extreme. Then you have places like South Africa

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Speaker 2: where it's kind of just all bets are off. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they're absurdly notorious for the types of horrible things that

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Speaker 2: go on in there.

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Speaker 1: That's correct. The violence, the crime, and the corruption are

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Speaker 1: incredibly high. There is a triad of gangs that run

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Speaker 1: many of the prisons in South Africa. I believe they're

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Speaker 1: the twenty five's, the twenty sixes, and the twenty sevens.

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Speaker 1: They are much more sinister than their names would lead

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Speaker 1: you to believe. For instance, one of the common punishments

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Speaker 1: for someone who has broken the codes or moraise of

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Speaker 1: the gang is for someone to This is incredibly graphic,

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Speaker 1: it may not be suitable for all listeners. Is for

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Speaker 1: someone to be wounded in their anus and then to

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Speaker 1: be assaulted by an HIV positive member of the gang.

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Speaker 1: That happens in South African prisons. In some cases, the

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Speaker 1: prisoners have almost as much power as the staff that

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Speaker 1: technically keeps an eye on them. So we have very

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Speaker 1: very very very very nice, sometimes called unfairly called Ikea

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Speaker 1: prisons in Norway, and then we have very very very

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Speaker 1: bad and dangerous places, and the US, depending on who

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Speaker 1: you ask, can fall somewhere in between. One thing that's

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Speaker 1: no secret is that there are a ton of prisons

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Speaker 1: and jails here in these United States.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and you're speaking about a ton of different places, right,

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Speaker 3: and each of those is its own ecosystem in a

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Speaker 3: lot of ways. In the US, we have over seventeen

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Speaker 3: hundred state prisons, over one hundred federal prisons, and nine

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Speaker 3: hundred and forty two juvenile correctional facilities. But let's keep

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Speaker 3: going here, three two and eighty three local jails and

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Speaker 3: seventy nine jails that are on indigenous people's reservations.

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Speaker 2: And you might be saying to yourself, given the population

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Speaker 2: of our country, those numbers actually seem kind of low, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: which means severe overcrowding in many of the nation's prisons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's keep in mind this does not count military prisons,

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Speaker 1: immigration detention facilities, civil commitment centers, and prisons in the

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Speaker 1: many US territories.

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Speaker 2: And that's not to say that the kinds of things

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Speaker 2: ben that you describe taking place in South African prisons

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Speaker 2: don't happen in the United States. Largely due to this overcrowding,

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Speaker 2: in New Mexico's State Penitentiary in February of nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 2: prison inmates essentially took over the facility and got a

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Speaker 2: hold of what you would call snitch files, where folks

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Speaker 2: that were actually you know, reporting on you know, illegal activity,

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Speaker 2: they end up in these physical files in the prison

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Speaker 2: wardens office, and the folks that kind of took over

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Speaker 2: the facility found those single those people out and did

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Speaker 2: things very much in line with the kinds of tortures

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Speaker 2: and punishments that Ben was describing taking place in South Africa,

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Speaker 2: involving genital mutilation and you know, hanging from the rafters,

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Speaker 2: you know, by their necks and things like that. Just

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Speaker 2: absolute unimaginable terror.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And there has been a growing discrepancy between the

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Speaker 1: way that prisons in the US are depicted in works

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Speaker 1: of fiction versus how day to day life is for

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Speaker 1: the inmates and the staff alike. The truth of the

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Speaker 1: matter is that conditions at these sites can vary widely,

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Speaker 1: sometimes due to issues of funding, and sometimes due to

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Speaker 1: the type of crimes a given inmate may be found

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Speaker 1: guilty of committeing, for example. There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who might be in jail for a comparatively short

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Speaker 1: amount of time, and some of our fellow listeners may

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Speaker 1: had this experience at some point in their lives. In

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Speaker 1: some cases, you can also participate in work release programs.

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Speaker 1: This means that someone who's convicted of a crime and

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Speaker 1: has jail time to serve, can serve that time on

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Speaker 1: nights and weekends such that they are able to hopefully

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Speaker 1: maintain employment while serving out their sentence, still be a

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Speaker 1: part of their local community, and hints be less likely

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Speaker 1: to end up back in jail.

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein did definitely have an extreme version of a

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Speaker 1: work release program, and check out episode three on Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 1: I think, depending on audience interest, I think we need

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Speaker 1: to do an episode four just to look at gislaying

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Speaker 1: Maxwell exclusively.

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Speaker 2: I would agree with you.

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Speaker 1: So what about the other extreme of prisons, like if

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Speaker 1: the Epstein's and the white collar criminals of the world

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Speaker 1: go to what has sometimes been described as camp fed,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's the what's the other the other far

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Speaker 1: end of the spectrum.

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Speaker 3: Here you're talking about super max facilities.

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Speaker 2: And this is.

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Speaker 3: It's a it's a different kind of torture. I think

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Speaker 3: being alone for long long periods of time. Inmates in

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Speaker 3: places that would be considered super max facilities could be

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Speaker 3: alone in solitary confinement for a year, more than a

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Speaker 3: year years, and then a lot of times when they're

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Speaker 3: when they're experiencing that kind of thing, they will get

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Speaker 3: some kind of moment to themselves, basically an hour to

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Speaker 3: be outside, I mean during a single twenty four hour period.

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Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken. There have been changes in the law

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Speaker 2: surrounding confinement to solitary, isn't it I mean a little

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Speaker 2: bit more regularly than it used to be. Or is

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Speaker 2: it still just completely up to the discretion of prison officials,

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Speaker 2: because I thought there were some human rights cases that

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Speaker 2: sort of prevented just willing la shoving people in solitary

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Speaker 2: and throwing away the key.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and twelve, there was a federal class

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Speaker 1: action lawsuit against the Bureau of Prisons and people who

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Speaker 1: run the ad X shoe or Secure House Security Housing Unit,

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Speaker 1: it's the nice name for these prisons. The case was dismissed,

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Speaker 1: So no, so that's off. I'm it's enormously controversial. The

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Speaker 1: UN has condemned the practice, but the UN writes a

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Speaker 1: lot of condemnations without a lot of teeth behind them.

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Speaker 1: And supermax is it's a prison within a prison. And

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Speaker 1: that thing that you're describing, Matt where they get outside

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Speaker 1: time for an hour or whatever, it's pretty depressing, right,

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Speaker 1: they're in a different cage outside. Yeah, so we see this,

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Speaker 1: We see this huge, this huge discrepancy between some prisons

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Speaker 1: or some detention facilities and another. But one thing is

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Speaker 1: not up for debate. Going to a point I believe

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Speaker 1: you raised earlier, This doesn't sound like a ton of facilities, right,

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Speaker 1: given that the population of the United States is in

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Speaker 1: the three hundred millions. The US prison population, however, the

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Speaker 1: actual people incarcerated is huge. There was a twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: report from the Bureau of Justice Statistics that found, okay,

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Speaker 1: the numbers are a little wonky, right, but they found

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Speaker 1: almost two point two million people are caught up in

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Speaker 1: the system, or as many as almost two point three

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Speaker 1: million people, and that came from the end of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. That means, if we adjust for the

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Speaker 1: population of this country, we find a disturbing statistic. For

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Speaker 1: every one hundred thousand people residing in the United States,

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Speaker 1: approximately six hundred and fifty five are behind bars as

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Speaker 1: we speak, for one reason or another. But there's another

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Speaker 1: way to think about it. We can get lost in

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Speaker 1: these numbers, and I think a proportion is a good

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Speaker 1: way to slice the pie. Or let you see the

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Speaker 1: larger picture. But we have a good analogy to or

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Speaker 1: good comparison would be a better way to say it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so, if the population currently in US prisons was

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Speaker 2: the population of one city, it would be a city

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Speaker 2: larger than Dallas or Philadelphia, which as we know, are

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Speaker 2: pretty populous metro areas. It would in fact be one

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Speaker 2: of the ten largest cities in these United States, just

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Speaker 2: a little smaller than Houston and a little bigger than Phoenix.

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Speaker 1: Staggering numbers. It's also, again, even more disturbing when we

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Speaker 1: realize that these numbers do not count hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of people currently held in those other facilities, the military,

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Speaker 1: the prisons in US territories, the detainment centers for immigrants

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Speaker 1: and their children, the.

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Speaker 2: Ones that are often much more difficult to even find

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Speaker 2: out what those populations look like.

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Speaker 3: It's true, But wait, Ben, what if there's even more

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Speaker 3: to this story?

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Speaker 2: Surely you jest, No, I do not.

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Speaker 3: What if there are other facilities, not detainment centers, immigration centers,

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Speaker 3: not your standard military prison. What if there's a much

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Speaker 3: more secret place where people could be held and are.

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Speaker 1: Held, Facilities like those closed cities of the Cold War

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Speaker 1: that do not officially exist. Right, places where the normal

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Speaker 1: laws do not apply, wherea's talking no real trials, none

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Speaker 1: of the normal avenues for parole, probation and so on,

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Speaker 1: severe constraints on your rights as an individual. What if

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Speaker 1: there are places where, in a very real sense, people disappear.

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Speaker 1: What exactly are these so called black sites?

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Speaker 3: And we'll get to that right after a quick word

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Speaker 3: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Yes, it's true. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the things where we have a conclusive, concrete,

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Speaker 1: definitive answer. Black sites did and this is speculative, but

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Speaker 1: they probably do still exist, almost certainly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And to really get a full picture of the

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Speaker 2: development of this, we're gonna have to zip back in

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Speaker 2: time to that fateful day on September eleventh, two thousand

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Speaker 2: and one, when what is officially recognized as a terrorist

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Speaker 2: attack in New York City and Washington d C caused

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Speaker 2: the Central Intelligence Agency to start to think outside the box,

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Speaker 2: outside the existing prison boxes a military situations that were

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Speaker 2: already in place, and to really go further and create

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Speaker 2: an entire new network of facilities.

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Speaker 3: I would say they're looking outside of that system as

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Speaker 3: well as the judicial system in general, as well as

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Speaker 3: maybe even oversight from the United Nations, and it.

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Speaker 2: Takes one of these. It takes something as you know,

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Speaker 2: life changing, as earth chattering politically, and just in terms

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Speaker 2: of like day to day existence as September eleventh, to

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Speaker 2: really cause this kind of sea change where it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the ends justify the means is sort of

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Speaker 2: the order of the day, right.

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Speaker 1: The idea here is something that we've encountered in previous

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Speaker 1: arguments for torture, which is the ticking time bomb scenario.

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Speaker 1: You have an individual that you cannot legally arrest, but

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Speaker 1: this individual has knowledge that could help you prevent another

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Speaker 1: huge disaster. So you do what's called an extraordinary rendition.

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Speaker 1: You move beyond the law. You take them someplace where

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Speaker 1: the law does not fully apply. The CIA started looking

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Speaker 1: for outside facilities where they could do this. They could

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Speaker 1: detain and interrogate people they believed it's a very important distinction,

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Speaker 1: people they believed to be high level Al Qaeda suspects.

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Speaker 1: These secret prisons, known as black sites, were used by

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Speaker 1: the CIA to interrogate the folks they thought were terrorists,

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Speaker 1: often using what are called enhanced interrogation by some what

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Speaker 1: are called torture techniques by others to obtain intelligence. And

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Speaker 1: we know that this program began mere days after the

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Speaker 1: events of September eleventh. I mean, you want to dive

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Speaker 1: into the history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we should and can do that, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to do that with the help of a UN report

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Speaker 2: that was officially titled Report of the Special Reporteur on

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Speaker 2: the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms

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Speaker 2: while Countering Terrorism by Ben Emerson. Yeah, that's the.

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Speaker 1: Uh, that's the guy writing the report.

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Speaker 2: This is why they write names like this because people

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Speaker 2: have already like tuned out by the time they get

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Speaker 2: to Special Reputeur and they're certainly not going to read

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Speaker 2: the actual reporter. We will, and we're going to give

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Speaker 2: you a little exert here that I think we'll maybe

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Speaker 2: do this round robin style. On seventeen September two thousand

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Speaker 2: and one, President Bush authorized the CIA to operate a

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Speaker 2: secret detention program. It's obviously written by a brick because

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Speaker 2: he's spelled program p R O g r MM.

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Speaker 1: That's the way. That's the type of English the un US.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Interesting? That makes sense? Okay. A secret

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Speaker 2: detention program, which involved the establishment of clandestine detention facilities

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Speaker 2: known as quote black sites end quote on the territory

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Speaker 2: of other states, with the collaboration of public officials in

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Speaker 2: those states, And.

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Speaker 3: Just to continue the quote here. At about the same time,

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Speaker 3: he George W. Bush allegedly authorized the CIA to carry

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Speaker 3: out extraordinary renditions, the secret transfers of prisoners outside any

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Speaker 3: lawful process of extradition or expulsion, enabling them to be

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Speaker 3: interrogated whilst in the formal custody of the public officials

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Speaker 3: of other states, including states with a record of using torture.

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Speaker 1: At the beginning of August two thousand and two, the

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Speaker 1: Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel purported to authorize a

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Speaker 1: range of physical and mental abuse of terrorist suspects known

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Speaker 1: as enhanced interrogation techniques. So that's the end of the quote.

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Speaker 1: And that's a pretty pretty easy summation there. Now, people

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Speaker 1: who support the existence of black sites and the activities

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Speaker 1: that took place within these sites will insert one thousand

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Speaker 1: footnotes into that single paragraph, right, and we will give

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Speaker 1: those We will give those opponents of this ride up there.

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Speaker 1: Due However, everything in that paragraph is factual, that all

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Speaker 1: actually happened. It has been vetted. We can look at

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Speaker 1: examples of what black sites actually are. This iteration of

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Speaker 1: black sites. The first one was built in Thailand. It

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Speaker 1: was built shortly after the September eleventh attacks.

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Speaker 3: That is just surprising to hear. I think of thinking

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Speaker 3: of Thailand as being the first place.

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Speaker 1: Well, Thailand is not a place that pops up on

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Speaker 1: the map in a lot of areas. So, for instance,

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Speaker 1: if you suspected the CIA to do something like this,

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Speaker 1: one would naturally and rightfully imagine that they would have

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Speaker 1: a site that was closer to the fracas, right, but this.

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Speaker 2: I would think Saudi Arabia probably sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they would probably just rent one of

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Speaker 1: the one Saudi Arabia already has.

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Speaker 2: And this is all done with full cooperation from these

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Speaker 2: various governments, that is correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So wonder what.

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Speaker 2: That negotiations like in a favor. Is it saying like,

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Speaker 2: how can we do this together and make it mutually agreeable?

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Speaker 2: Or is it basically just saying like, this is what's happening.

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Speaker 2: We will withhold aid from you if you don't help

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Speaker 2: us out. I'm wondering, speculator.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a later on we'll get to an example

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Speaker 1: from Poland that has a good blow by blow of

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Speaker 1: how this happens. But I suspect it is a case

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Speaker 1: by case basis. You know, this is very much a

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Speaker 1: situation in which US intelligence is building the car while

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Speaker 1: they're driving the car, you know what I mean. So

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Speaker 1: back to Thailand, the American officers there repeatedly water boarded

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Speaker 1: at least two detainees. This was part of those interrogation

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Speaker 1: techniques that the rest of the world, by the way,

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Speaker 1: would later call torture. So waterboarding, for anyone who has

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Speaker 1: an experience, it may sound relatively tame at first, it's

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Speaker 1: a simulation of the experience of drowning. So anybody who

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Speaker 1: has been in danger of drowning ever knows that it

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Speaker 1: is not a pleasant way to go what happens. And

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Speaker 1: there are you know, there are training courses where people

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Speaker 1: who will later use those techniques have to experience it

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Speaker 1: for themselves because you need to know at what point

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Speaker 1: to stop. But here's what happens. You take the victim

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Speaker 1: and you have a rag over their mouth and their

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Speaker 1: nose important, and then you just continually pour a steady

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Speaker 1: consistent amount of water into their mouth and goes through

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Speaker 1: the rag.

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Speaker 3: While they're laying back or sometimes even at a lower

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Speaker 3: angle than.

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Speaker 1: Just while their feet are elevated above their head. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know usually on like a plank. Right. And

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Speaker 1: while that sounds tame because you could say, well, they're

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Speaker 1: not beating the snot out of people, They're not breaking

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Speaker 1: fingers or collecting fingernails or teeth or whatever. This this

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Speaker 1: is a incredibly from experience. This is an incredibly unpleasant thing.

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Speaker 1: I was not waterboarded by government agency, but it is

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Speaker 1: an extremely unpleasant experience. And more importantly, it is one

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Speaker 1: that can be repeated ad nauseum, so you can keep

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Speaker 1: drowning people, bringing them back, asking them to confess to something,

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Speaker 1: and then just almost drowning them again.

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Speaker 2: It's like death simulation. I mean, you know the things

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Speaker 2: that kick in in situations like that are terror and

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Speaker 2: anxiety and panic and just utter, you know, like not

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Speaker 2: feeling safe in any way.

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Speaker 3: I think you hit it right on the head when

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Speaker 3: you use the t word terror being inflicted then on

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Speaker 3: someone you know, perhaps suspected of being a terrorist, because

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Speaker 3: you know, it's it's exactly what you're saying. You're simulating drowning, right,

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Speaker 3: but it's it's like the most advance DAN flight simulator

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Speaker 3: that's ever existed. If you're thinking about it as a

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Speaker 3: one to one to flying to drowning, because your body

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Speaker 3: experiences and ben you know this exactly physically, exactly what

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Speaker 3: it would do if it were drowning.

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Speaker 2: I need is a bucket and a rag a table.

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Speaker 1: It's also sometimes called dry drowning, which I think is

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Speaker 1: a more sinister phrase there. It can cause some serious

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Speaker 1: physical damage, even if a person does not die while

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Speaker 1: this is happening. And to be fair on the side

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Speaker 1: of people who support this interrogation technique, it is described

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Speaker 1: as something that the people administering it have received extensive

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Speaker 1: training and such that they're not going to accidentally keep

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Speaker 1: someone asphyxiated for too long. All in all, there were

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Speaker 1: ten CIA prisoners that we know of who were arrested

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Speaker 1: or held on the soil of Thailands before being transferred

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Speaker 1: to Guantanamo Bay, which we all knew would show up

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Speaker 1: at least partially in this episode. Guantanamo Bay is located

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Speaker 1: on the island of Cuba, and these folks were transferred

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Speaker 1: without any kind of due process or hearing. That's according

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Speaker 1: to a report by the Open Society Justice Initiative from

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Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Funny story about this. It is the worst

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Speaker 1: kept secret in Thailand. There have been successive members of

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Speaker 1: the Thai government in the military in the years following this,

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Speaker 1: and one thing they all have in common is they

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Speaker 1: have all denied that this ever happened, that there was

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Speaker 1: a black site. It's all a big misunderstanding. These are

438
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: not the droids you're looking for. These prisons were not

439
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: just in Thailand. They were initially located in at least

440
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: eight different countries. They were classified, and they were so

441
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: classified that inform on each one was known only to

442
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: the President, a few other US officials, and the people

443
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: doing the dirty work.

444
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 3: And you know, there were a lot of problems. Pretty

445
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: obviously on the face of these kinds of things, now

446
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: I would have seen that kind of well, yeah, but

447
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 3: a lot of these problems started to show up pretty

448
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: quickly after these sites were established.

449
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least twenty six people were held due to

450
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 2: cases of mistaken identity.

451
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: There are a couple great documentaries around surrounding this. Something

452
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 3: about the taxi. I can't remember the name of it,

453
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: but there's a fantastic documentary that came out in the

454
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: mid two thousands about a taxi driver that just ended

455
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 3: up at Guantanomo crazy.

456
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 2: That's the thing. If you're there due to a case

457
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 2: of mistaken identity and you have no recourse to getting

458
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: you know, your case heard and proving that you're not

459
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: this person, at that point you just become like collateral

460
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: damage of the system and you're just stuck, like what

461
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: do you do? It gives me a panic attacks thinking

462
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: about it.

463
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: Also, add to that the language barrier. Yeah, you know,

464
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: these many of these interrogators would have a translator of

465
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 1: some sort, but the interrogators themselves were often not fluent

466
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: in the language spoken by the people being detained. So yes,

467
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 1: at least twenty six people, at least twenty six people

468
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: were totally not supposed to be there. Their name just

469
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: sounded similar, or there was a vague description, or they

470
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: were turned over when reporting suspected terrorists became incentivized, which

471
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: is a different problem. Second thing that cropped up almost immediately,

472
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: the CIA gets caught line to Uncle Sam along with

473
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: some other members of the CIA who had a problem

474
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: with this. Because again, although it's tempting and it's easy

475
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: and cognitively delicious to think these are monolithic entities, they

476
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: are not. There are people within there are wheels within wheels,

477
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: there are people competing for the same positions. There's a

478
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

479
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: Kind of situation that crops up. And that's what compartmentalized

480
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: intelligence is all about. So, according to The Washington Post,

481
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: in at least one case, an internal CIA memo relays

482
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: instructions from the White House to keep the program secret

483
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,479
Speaker 1: from the Secretary of State, the guy whose job is

484
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: literally to know what's going on here. That was then

485
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Colin Powell, and they wanted to keep

486
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: it a secret from him out of concern that he

487
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: would quote blow his stack if he were to be

488
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: briefed on what's going on.

489
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

490
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: Wow, the guy that was, you know, giving a hearing

491
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: in Congress showing the yellow cake.

492
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 2: He's the guy who you're like, yeah, we can't let

493
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: him know about this.

494
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: He got misled several times. Ye, he did in his career.

495
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: So of one hundred and nineteen known suspects who were held,

496
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: thirty nine of them were subjected to this. Well, this

497
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: story is full of these absurd terms, sort of these

498
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: sanitized versions of the same idea. Enhanced interrogation was that

499
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: a Cheney thing. That was a Cheney thing.

500
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: I feel like the I think it was the lawyer

501
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: who his name escapes you maybe yeah, no, oh ye

502
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: not you, yoh yes.

503
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

504
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: The thing is these these these are like any other buzzwords.

505
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: Often the original author of the buzzword is not going

506
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: to be super jazzed about it.

507
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's true. But these techniques referred to pretty

508
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: controversially as enhanced interrogation, were used, and we'll get into

509
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: more on that in just a bit. But some of

510
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 2: these things included being slapped and this concept of wall

511
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: which is new to me, and that's when people were

512
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: slammed against walls, along with of course waterboarding and sleep deprivation.

513
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: And you know, we've seen some of these photos with

514
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: the Forest Unity from the Abou Gray prison where folks

515
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: were forced to stand on buckets for extended periods of

516
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: time with like bags over their heads and completely strip naked.

517
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: It's just a lot of it comes down to humiliation

518
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: as well.

519
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and at times, these this stuff included even more

520
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: egregious acts. There were incidents of physical view, sexual assaults,

521
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: threat I believe the photos you're referring to specifically feature

522
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: people being threatened with military dogs. The thing about these

523
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: techniques is they were chosen on purpose because they could

524
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: be applied repeatedly for days or weeks at a stretch.

525
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: And I just want to confirm off air. We checked

526
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: back to this to make sure that we were correct.

527
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: It was John You John chune U, an attorney, law professor,

528
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: former government official. He was the author of the so

529
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: called torture Memos, in which the phrase enhanced interrogation. As

530
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: you might assume, shows up quite often. Seven of the

531
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: people subjected to these techniques produced no intelligence whatsoever. What

532
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: do we mean when we say they produced no intelligence whatsoever?

533
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 1: We mean that they didn't even produce incorrect intelligence. They

534
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: didn't even panic and say, well, maybe that guy I

535
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: went to college with, maybe he's the one you're looking for.

536
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: Or yeah, I'll say anything you want me to, just

537
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: please stop drowning me.

538
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: And at least three were confirmed to be subjected to waterboarding.

539
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: We know about the two in Thailand. There's one other,

540
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: but there are many, many more reports. A little bit

541
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: earlier in the show, we mentioned that we had a

542
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: specific example that gives us a look at the money

543
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: and the operation. In the Blow by Blow Day by

544
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: day operation involved let's pause for a word from our sponsor,

545
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: and then let's travel to Poland.

546
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 3: Okay, so we're back and we are now in Poland.

547
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 3: You probably didn't expect to head that.

548
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: Way, no episode.

549
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: No one expects to go to Poland.

550
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 3: I know, well except for that Germany went there one time,

551
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: if I recall.

552
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean nowadays, no one expects to go

553
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: to Poland.

554
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is interesting that we ended up there

555
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: with one of these black sites. It was one of

556
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: the first and the probably the most important European black site.

557
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 3: It was it was there in Poland. The CIA made

558
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 3: a fifteen million dollar deal with their intelligence agencies, their

559
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: intelligence structure there to build the site, and they called

560
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 3: it Quartz, or at least they referred to it as

561
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: quartz Quartz.

562
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: Yes, the accommodations wors were not on the level of

563
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: a Norwegian prison. Instead, they could only hold a handful

564
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: of detainees. There was very, very sparse accommodation. There was

565
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: a shed behind the house that was also converted to

566
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: a cell. Now if this sounds a little bit clandestine,

567
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: it's because it was, you know, the biggest, the biggest

568
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: task robstacle in front of the Polish and American authorities

569
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: was to make sure that this remained the stuff. They

570
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 1: don't want you to know very much. They wanted people

571
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: to think this was just a villa, right and if

572
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: someone were to look, say via satellite, and want it

573
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 1: to be too obvious that this was an illegal jail

574
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: prison torture chamber that did not officially exist. There was

575
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: one room where detainees could ride a stationary bike or

576
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: use a treadmill if they cooperated. We do know that

577
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: despite the p problems, despite the injustices evolved, the system

578
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: kept growing. It went global, it became an international franchise.

579
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: At least fifty prisons have been used to hold detainees

580
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: in over twenty well in twenty eight countries. And that's

581
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: in addition to twenty five more prisons in Afghanistan, twenty

582
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: in Iraq. There's also there's also this story, in this rumor,

583
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: in this allegation of floating prisons, which I thought was

584
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: incredibly devious and brutally clever.

585
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 2: And it's estimated that the US had seventeen of those

586
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 2: starting from two thousand and one, which brings the total

587
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 2: estimated number of prisons operated by the US and our

588
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 2: allies in order to house alleged terraces since two thousand

589
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 2: and one to more than one hundred and other countries

590
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: that held suspects on behalf of the US included.

591
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna caution, let's try not to do the Animaniacs.

592
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a lot long list. It's a lot

593
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: we got and I can't do it. Algeria, Azerbaijan, Bosniah,

594
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: Didjibuti Djibouti, Yes, that's the Dasylam, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gambia, Israel, Jordan, Kenya, Kosovo, Libya, Lithuania, Mauritania, Morocco, Pakistan, Poland, Katar, Romania,

595
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia, Syria, Somalia, South Africa, Thailand, United Kingdom, Uzbekistan, Yemen,

596
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 2: and Zambia.

597
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: And according to the Human Rights Watch, the US held

598
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: detainees from many different countries around the world, twenty one

599
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: in all, including some that will be easily recognizable and

600
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: some that might be a little bit surprising. So detainees

601
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: from Algeria, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Gaza in the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Oman,

602
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, the UK,

603
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: and Yemen.

604
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: Including a guy named Kelli Sheik Muhammad, the you know,

605
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 3: the quote mastermind of nine to eleven, outside of Osama

606
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 3: bin Laden, of course, but he was held in that

607
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 3: Poland spot for quite a while there where he was

608
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: waterboarded and all the he was enhancedly interrogated. Then he

609
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 3: was moved several times to different places. But it's interesting

610
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: too to think that someone of such a considered to

611
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 3: be such a high level target would be kept in

612
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 3: that two story villa in Poland, just hidden somewhere.

613
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm sure the security was I'm sure it was robust, Yeah,

614
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough. In several of these black sites,

615
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: the detainees were you know, they had been tortured for

616
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: whatever information they were perceived to have, and then they

617
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: were shipped to a place that was deemed more secure

618
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 1: or at least marginally more legal. And that is where

619
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: Guantanamo Bay comes into play. Guantanamo or GITMO as it's

620
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: been called before, is not exactly the same as a

621
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 1: black site because it was not purposefully built for secret detention.

622
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: In the wake of nine to eleven Guantanamo Bay as

623
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: a US possession, has been around for a long time,

624
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: and it has a strange history because it's on Guantanamo

625
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: Bay Naval Base, right, and it's been there in some

626
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 1: form since nineteenh three. So even when the US and

627
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: Cuba have very antagonistic relationships or you know, interactions, Guantanamo

628
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: Bay is still around and has stood the test of time.

629
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: So it does have this in common with Black sites.

630
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: Detainees from these secret sites were sent to Guantanamo Bay,

631
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: and they were also subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques there

632
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: with some real psychologically disturbing torture as well. They tried

633
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: to get into not just physically threaten people, but also

634
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: get into their heads and humiliate them.

635
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. There's a two thousand and five report that was

636
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee, I guess, and

637
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 3: it detailed the interrogation of one man who was considered

638
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: the twentieth hijacker in the nine to eleven attacks. His

639
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 3: name was Mohammed al Katani. Might remember his name from

640
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: news reports over the years. He was supposedly forced to

641
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 3: wear a bra to dance with a man and do

642
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 3: what we're called dog tricks. While tied to.

643
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: A leash, set laid down, Yeah, rollover.

644
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: So very much, just breaking him down essentially psychologically. But

645
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 3: military investigators said this was not considered something that was

646
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: prohibited and they did not consider it inhumane treatment either.

647
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: I kind of wonder, like, do you think there's a

648
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: committee that comes up with this stuff or is it

649
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: just sort of like improv do you mean the torture? Yeah,

650
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: Like that's so specific.

651
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 3: You know.

652
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: It's like like like, do do you think it was

653
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 2: like the guards or like the interrogators that come up

654
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: with this or is there some higher level like committee

655
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: or board that comes up with quote unquote acceptable humane forms,

656
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: Because obviously waterboardings will go to because it's not going

657
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 2: to kill them, it's considered maybe less problematic than like

658
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: attaching electrodes to somebody in a car battery, you know,

659
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: but like it's definitely still pretty rough. But I'm wondering,

660
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: like where do these go to tortures come from?

661
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: Like it's definitely not improvised, Yeah, yeah, I.

662
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: Mean I don't think so either, But I'm wondering where,

663
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: like if there's a committee that there's specific job is

664
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: to come up with this stuff in some you know

665
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:50,479
Speaker 2: darkened room.

666
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of these techniques have stood the test

667
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: of time. It's not for nothing that people decide to

668
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 1: pursue the similar taking of physical or mental stress. I

669
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: would draw everyone's attention to earlier published memos and pamphlets

670
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 1: from the CIA in that were put out in South

671
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: American countries and Central American countries that were meant to

672
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: educate people on how to be insurgents and meant to

673
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: give you some information about how to torture someone without

674
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: killing them, because the thing is you want to get

675
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: them right to the line right. There are some things

676
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: that are so messed up they sound like they occur

677
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: in fiction, but there are real cases. For instance, if

678
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: you read some of this stuff where someone who is

679
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: going to torture a detainee right will say whether for

680
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: this government or another government. They'll walk in and they'll

681
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: be your friend on a chat with you and make

682
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: sure you're hungry, you need anything, you like sprite? I

683
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: heard you like spit. Let's get this guy sprite. And

684
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: then they'll have a conversation like, okay, look there's some

685
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: stuff that we think you know. We know you know it,

686
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: and we want you to tell us, but to me.

687
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what you say. You and I are

688
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: going to be quite close. Check this out. And then

689
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: when they say check this out, they will harm themselves

690
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 1: in front of the person, you know, like cut their

691
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 1: arm such that it bleeds copiously, but not you know, lethally,

692
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: not a north to south kind of cut, just like

693
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: floah vertical cut like that with their arm hanging out

694
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: of kimbo. And then they'll hold it there and like,

695
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: I just did this to myself, What do you think

696
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to do to you? That kind of stuff.

697
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: You're not physically hurting the person, but you're in their

698
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: head and that thing. While it sounds like a complete

699
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: malarkey written by a screenwriter somewhere, that has happened before,

700
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 1: and people do that because it works. So all this stuff,

701
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: in answer to your question is not is largely not improvised.

702
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also one of the things where it's like,

703
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 2: to the subject being on the receiving end of said torture,

704
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: they're like, go back to being nice again. Whatever I

705
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: have to do to get you back to where you were,

706
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: where you were giving me a sprite, you know and

707
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: being my friend, I'll do that. You know it Literally,

708
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: it's like you're showing this juxtaposition. You're like you're baiting

709
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: and switching, and then you're like whatever it takes to

710
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: get back to that first version of you, you know.

711
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 3: So let's jump back here in time. We were talking

712
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: about that two thousand and five report that went to

713
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 3: the Senate Armed Services Committee, and then the next year,

714
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 3: in September of two thousand and six, the president at

715
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 3: the time, George W. Bush, acknowledged that the CIA had

716
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 3: indeed held suspected terrorists in these places, these secret prisons

717
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: overseas in different countries. He also announced the transfer of

718
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: fourteen specific captured al Qaeda operatives. Again, like you're just

719
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 3: kind of he's just announcing this to the public, like

720
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: we just say, okay, those must be al Qaeda operatives,

721
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 3: but he's saying fourteen captured Alkayeda operatives who were being transferred,

722
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 3: including Mohammad bin al shib and Abu Zubaya to Guantanamo Bay.

723
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 3: So two thousand and six is when the President of

724
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: the United States says, yes, indeed, we are keeping people

725
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: in these secret places, and we're shipping people now to Guantanamo.

726
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of work leading up to

727
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: this as well. There's some fantastic, i would say, heroic

728
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: journalists such as Dana Priest, who did a lot of

729
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: work for the Washington Post on this subject. So when

730
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: it was confirmed by the then president, it was already

731
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: something that was widely suspected or even already considered to

732
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: be true by people a little more on the fringes

733
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,240
Speaker 1: of the national and international conversation. Let's fast forward twenty eighteen.

734
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: As you may know, neither the naval base nor the

735
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: detention center are closed. Posed last year January thirtieth, President

736
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: Donald Trump signed an executive order to keep the detention

737
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: center open and also to approve the transfer potential new

738
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: prisoners to the site. So not only is it not closed,

739
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 1: it might actually grow. There was a well, they're having

740
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: a series of legal challenges to this because these people

741
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: are often, you know, they're not experiencing due process. There

742
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: have been people who have been held for years and

743
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: turned out that they were completely the wrong person. Right.

744
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: In June of this year, twenty nineteen, the Supreme Court

745
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: of the US rejected a challenge to the indefinite detention

746
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: of Guantanamo Bay detainees who have yet to be charged

747
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: imagine being detained indefinitely, no charges brought against you for

748
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 1: almost twenty years. Twenty years, that's how that's how long

749
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: ago this was.

750
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: Now it's basically saying we have enough evidence, like this

751
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: is what you have to imagine the authorities saying to you,

752
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: as the individual, we feel as though we have enough

753
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 3: evidence to convince us that you were definitely a heinous

754
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 3: person who has done heinous things or is plenty to

755
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: do heinous things, But we don't have enough evidence to

756
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 3: you know, take you to trial anywhere, or we don't

757
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 3: have a place in which we can try you for

758
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 3: these crimes.

759
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 2: I mean, it reminds me of the way they used

760
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: to just be able to, like, you know, a king

761
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: back in the dark ages could just throw somebody in

762
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: the dungeon, you know, and throw away the key, with

763
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 2: no trial, no due process, and they wouldn't even have

764
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: known what they have done.

765
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: You know.

766
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: Think of the abuses that are likely inherent in this system.

767
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: You know, people with a grudge, or people where someone

768
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 2: maybe has some dirt, who knows. I mean, you know,

769
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 2: I'm not trying it on. I mean, I think it's

770
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 2: certainly what I'm saying is when you when you lack accountability,

771
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: corruption tends to run free.

772
00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 4: Well.

773
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: And the other thing is just how how human beings,

774
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,479
Speaker 3: through the legal eese and the manipulation of the law,

775
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 3: are categorized. We've talked about this before on this show,

776
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 3: but the concept of I believe it was during the

777
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 3: Barack Obama's presidency where I think it was under his watch,

778
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 3: where males of a fighting age in any country where

779
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 3: the United States is engaged militarily are considered an enemy combatants. Right. Yeah,

780
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 3: that means if you are within that age range and

781
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 3: you are a male, then you could.

782
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 2: Just be at a black site.

783
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: The assumption is right. This is fascinating in a terrible,

784
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: terrible way. We do have to also, again to be fair,

785
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: we have to point out that because some of these

786
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: people were victims of mistaken identity, because some of these

787
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: people were accused of crimes that they did not commit,

788
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: it does not mean that everyone there was innocent.

789
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely. That's why it's so difficult.

790
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 1: Right, And of the fifty four countries that the Open

791
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:07,919
Speaker 1: Society that we mentioned at the top of the show,

792
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: the fifty four countries that Open Society confirmed is having captured, held, question, tortured,

793
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: or helped transport these detainees for the CIA, Fewer than

794
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: half of them have opened any kind of domestic inquiry

795
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: or had any court cases challenging their involvement. Means, in

796
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: a very real sense, this stuff continues to officially not exist.

797
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 1: But here is the ultimate question. Did these black sites

798
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: and the interrogations performed within actually produce results? Plot twist

799
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: spoiler alert. The CIA believes so, in case that was

800
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: a big Shamalan moment for anyone.

801
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, they, I mean, they almost kind of have to

802
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 3: believe so. And we have a quote here from the

803
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: CIA Director John Brennan, or at the time CIA Director

804
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 3: John Brennan.

805
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: He gave this official statement. Our review indicates that interrogation

806
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: of detainees on whom enhanced interrogation techniques were used, did

807
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: produce intelligence that helped thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and

808
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: saved lives. The intelligence gained from the program was critical

809
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: to our understanding of al Qaeda and continues to inform

810
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: our counter terrorism efforts to this day. Congress, this is

811
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: out of the quote. On the other hand, did not agree.

812
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: Right right, So for many of us listening, or at

813
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: least a few of us listening, This feels like an ugly,

814
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 1: ugly reality, you know what I mean. War is a

815
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: brutal thing. And when we are when we're in that

816
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 1: hypothetical situation where doing something abominable to one person may

817
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: save hundreds of thousands, we're very close to that needs

818
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 1: of the many outnumber the needs of the few kind

819
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: of cold logic argument.

820
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 3: Right, well, what if those numbers are are just towards

821
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 3: or do terrible things to one person and save ten.

822
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 1: Right, even then the ratio still holds your safe. You're

823
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: creating more net good by doing a little bit of evil.

824
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: And the problem with that kind of experiment is that

825
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: it is very very rare for someone to know with

826
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: certitude that their activities prevented a disaster or a catastrophe,

827
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: because by preventing it, it's never happened, you know what

828
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: I mean.

829
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, It's kind.

830
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: Of like the psychic prediction problem where someone says, oh,

831
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: I have a premonition, Paul, mission controlled decand do not

832
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 1: take do not take your car to I don't know

833
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: and to a trip on Thanksgiving or something, because there

834
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 1: will be an accident. So maybe they just go a

835
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: different route and nothing happens. You know what, I mean, yeah,

836
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 1: or take a flight, or take a flight and nothing weapons.

837
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 1: So amongst the people who disagreed with that stance, amongst

838
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: the people who disagreed with the CIA's pro interrogation, pro

839
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: black site stance were members of Congress. Actually just Congress

840
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 1: disagree because one thing Congress used to really have a

841
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: problem with was being lied to. In their December ninth,

842
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen report, which was called the Committee's Study of

843
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: the Central Intelligence Agencies Detention and Interrogation Program. Again you

844
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: have to love the sexy titles, they found twenty different

845
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 1: findings that were published where they took the CIA to task.

846
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: They deemed the activities legal. They said, A, this doesn't work.

847
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: B stop lying, and it went on and on. The

848
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: weird thing about the report is that it is six

849
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: thousand pages long. Five hundred and twenty five of those

850
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: pages were declassified along with an executive summary, which is

851
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: where most people got the facts. Right now, we do

852
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: have an answer to the original question. We do know

853
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: the black sites did exist. They were highly illegal. Despite

854
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: the arguments made in court right and despite the clear

855
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: illegality as espoused by members of the legislative branch, it

856
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 1: appears the judicial branch of this government is stonewalling at

857
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: different turns, right, and they're saying, well, again, it's ugly,

858
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: but it's a special case. We have to protect the many,

859
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: and we don't know if there are other black sites

860
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 1: out there.

861
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 3: It feels like one of those terrible, dark truths ugly

862
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 3: secrets that almost oh, it's so weird because on this end,

863
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 3: you know, as American citizens sitting in this room, in

864
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 3: the privilege that we have just by existing in this country,

865
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 3: it feels, in this really messed up way good to

866
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 3: know that this kind of thing is out there to

867
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 3: ostensibly protect us here in this country, right, And I

868
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,439
Speaker 3: think we have to acknowledge that there's like a there's

869
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 3: a weird sense of like, okay, well, at least at

870
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:23,319
Speaker 3: least it's our my people, our people, our side, the

871
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 3: good guy is doing this thing.

872
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: Right.

873
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,839
Speaker 3: Those are all like subjective terms to put on the

874
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 3: American authorities, But I wonder what that feels like, what

875
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 3: it truly feels like inside from let's say, a Polish

876
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 3: citizen who finds out that there is a black site

877
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 3: in their country where this kind of thing is being

878
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: carried out on their soil.

879
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, I guess that all depends on how much benefit

880
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 2: they feel like they're getting from their relationship with the

881
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 2: United States, which varies from country to country and those arrangements, right,

882
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: I don't know, like that, like the whole thing with

883
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: Trump supposed to withholding aid from Ukraine in that situation,

884
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: Ukraine really needed that aid. So there's a quid pro quote.

885
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: I mean, not to throw around the buzz term of

886
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: the moment, but there is an absolute benefit as a

887
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 2: country where you say, oh, Okay, the US is giving

888
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: us this military aid. Therefore maybe we'll turn the other

889
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 2: cheek or you know, well we'll turn the other way

890
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,879
Speaker 2: if we think they're doing some nefarious stuff on our

891
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 2: turf because we feel like they're actually actively helping us

892
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 2: and having better lives.

893
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 3: Sure, I don't think it could. I don't think it

894
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 3: could occur without some kind of pretty heavy incentive like that.

895
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: It's just to your point that you're thinking, like, how

896
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 2: the average citizen, how do they feel about it? Well, yeah,

897
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: I mean you're talking.

898
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,959
Speaker 3: I mean we listed off the number of places where

899
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 3: these black sites existed. In a lot of them, you

900
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,720
Speaker 3: can imagine the citizens of those countries being at risk

901
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 3: of ending up and you know, it would be a

902
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 3: very small proportion of the citizens and almost not making

903
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 3: you know, wouldn't even be a blip on a calculator.

904
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: It's just I don't know.

905
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:09,720
Speaker 3: To me, I'm interested in the mindset of just somebody

906
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: knowing that's happening, because it's very it.

907
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: Feels even though even though sitting in.

908
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 3: This room as an American citizen, it kind of feels

909
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 3: not okay, but like I'm not scared about it.

910
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: Oh right, because you probably won't get black backed for now.

911
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: For now. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a very good

912
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: point because we know in our previous episode it is

913
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: completely possible for people to lose or hide entire cities

914
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,800
Speaker 1: with populations of thousands. So having a small area where

915
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 1: you have a handful or at the most hundreds of

916
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: detainees who have been disappeared, it's so disturbingly plausible that

917
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: that could happen, could be happening now, and there would

918
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 1: be no proof, and maybe the people who live in

919
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: the next town or village over just have have been

920
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: have been given to understand that no one goes near

921
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: the old dairy factory, you.

922
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 2: Know what I mean.

923
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: And that's all it takes yep, that's all it takes.

924
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: And this leads us to the question that we cannot

925
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: really answer. Will this happen in the future. Have these

926
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: black sites actually closed or have they just moved further

927
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 1: from the public eye. If that is the case, then

928
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: these locations remain the stuff they don't want you to know.

929
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

930
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:36,879
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts.

931
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: It's right let us know what you think. You can reach.

932
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 2: You to the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on

933
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 2: Facebook x and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy

934
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 2: Stuff Show.

935
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,120
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936
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:53,400
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937
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,640
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938
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 3: we can use your name and message on the air.

939
00:56:58,080 --> 00:56:59,600
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940
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,479
Speaker 3: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

941
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 3: fashioned email.

942
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:06,400
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943
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 4: correspondence we receive.

944
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the void writes back.

945
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 4: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

946
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

947
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

948
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,000
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