1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you From house top 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, And by very popular demand, we're 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: talking about librarians, not just in this podcast but also 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: in the next because there's so much to talk about. 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: There's so much to talk about, and you were just 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: going to listen to me over the course of two 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: episodes trying not to say librarians. And I'm not teasing anyone. 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: I'm not making fun of speech impediments. I'm literally concerned 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: about my lazy mouth. Well, and it didn't help that 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,200 Speaker 1: the email I sent Caroline with all of my library 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: sources that I was reading was subject line library sources. 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: So now library is in my head. Yeah, well, librry 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: sounds like some kind of uh refreshing tonic, a liberry juice. 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: Really go for a library right now? What what flavor 16 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: would a library be? Um? Something sour? I bet like 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: lime and BlackBerry. Let's make that happen. Can that be 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: a cocktail? Throw some gin in there? I'm sure it could. 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: But um, but about specific actual human librarians? True? Um, 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: we we seriously did receive so many emphatic requests for 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: this episode. People out there who work with books, work 22 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: around books, they do tend to call themselves librarians. Um, 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, we we couldn't not listen to you guys. 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: Your your request. We had to answer well because we 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: mentioned off handedly in an episode. I think it was 26 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: our episode about Hillary Clinton's early life that we should 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: revisit librarians, because there is a librarian themed episode of 28 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You from the Vault. I think 29 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: it came out in two thousand and ten. Um, so 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: we will be revisiting a little bit of that. But 31 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: I have a feeling a lot of listeners either haven't 32 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: heard that episode or it's probably been a while since 33 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: you have heard that episode, because I mean, children born 34 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: that year are like six now I know, so, so 35 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: six year olds. This is for you. Yeah, this goes 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: out to you, and also all the librarians out there. UM. If, 37 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: by the way, the two bossy Dames who are fantastic 38 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: librarians who send out a weekly newsletter that you should 39 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: absolutely subscribe to, if they're listening, because I think they 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: might know who we are. Hello, I thought about you 41 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: a lot during this episode, just pondered them. I'm picturing 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: you like sitting in your window looking out at the moon, 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: because they're rab librarians. I mean, And in college, Caroline, 44 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: I really wanted to work at our college library. So 45 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: as part of my student aid, I had an on 46 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: campus job and you could check off the ones that 47 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: you wanted, and the library was where all the cool 48 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: kids worked. Like a lot of townies worked at the library, 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: and it just kind of sounded cool, like, oh, I 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: just came from my shift at the library, and they 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: always had cool glasses and cool to tuos. And instead 52 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: I ended up working at the print shop, which had 53 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: its own you know, benefits hashtag free copies. But uh, 54 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: but still it was it was my dream to be 55 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: the college librarian. Well, it's funny that you mentioned like 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: the cool kids and the cool glasses and the tattoos 57 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 1: and everything, because that is sort of a latter day 58 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: librarian stereotype. You know. We over the course of these 59 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: two episodes, we will discuss stereotypes a bit. But um, 60 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, we've always had the image of the old 61 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: spinster woman shushing children, but I feel like more recently, 62 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: the new stereotype it's been introduced is like it is 63 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: a lady job, and here I am the alternative librarian 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: with the tattoos and glasses. Yeah, and she has really 65 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: cool glasses, some great tattoos, She wears modcloth dresses, has 66 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: fantastic vintage decor in her home, and a record collection, 67 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: and essentially is just has really great aesthetic taste and 68 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: also so many cultural references. Because she's read so much 69 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: cultural and literary references. She sounds like somebody i'd want 70 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: to hang out with. She's kind of my ideal woman. 71 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: I think that's what I'm realizing right now. It sounds 72 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: like you still want to go work in a library 73 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: a little bit. I've also been thinking about librarians a bit, though, Caroline, 74 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: because I've been watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the 75 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: first time, thank you Netflix. And Giles the Watcher is 76 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: a librarian and he fits the stereotype of your of 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: the he's the a curmudgeon, but he's a little bit fusty. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 78 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: And it is interesting to see, and I mean it 79 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: makes total sense. It's pretty self explanatory. It's interesting to 80 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: see the evolution of the librarian stereotype and how it 81 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: exactly matches the trends that we see in librarian nging librarianship. 82 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: Oh sure that'll work as well. Yes, uh. And in 83 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: this episode we're going to talk about how librarianship used 84 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: to be a dude's job and how a guy named 85 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: Melville Dewey came along and changed all of that. And 86 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: he also is the one who created the Dewey decimal system. 87 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: And while he often gets praised for that, I mean 88 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: he's kind of considered this hero of librarianship, we have 89 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: we have darker tales to tell about Dewey. Yeah, sounds 90 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: like a he's a real joy. But the whole transition 91 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: of librarianship from being a man's job to a woman's job, 92 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: which it still very much is today, is a really 93 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: intriguing exploration of how masculinity, ideal masculinity changed in turn 94 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: of the century America. Yes, this is such a great 95 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: episode to encompass all of the themes that Sminty just loves. Like, what, so, 96 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: we've got women in the workplace, but we've also got 97 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: the professionalization issue surrounding gender. So very professional when it 98 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: comes to men, but less professional when it comes to 99 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: women and wages. Um, we've also got issues of the 100 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: spinster and marriage and relationships, and who is allowed to 101 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: be employed both like you know, legally and just socially, 102 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: what is socially accepted? Um? And just a boatload of stereotypes. Yeah, 103 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: Victorian womanhood, gender norms. These two episodes, folks have it all. 104 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: So in this episode we're gonna be focusing on men 105 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: in librarianship, and then in our next episode we're gonna 106 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: be talking about rad lady librarians and how it became feminized. Um. 107 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: And we should say that it is still very much 108 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: a feminized occupation. So, according to stats from the American 109 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Library Association, as of two thousand ten, women made up 110 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: eighty two point eight percent of all librarians and of 111 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: all masters in library science students. Yeah, but it's not 112 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: as diverse a field as ideally it would be. Women 113 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: of color actually comprise less than sixteen percent of all librarians. 114 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: And so this is another very sminty esque tidbit. I know, 115 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: I do remember tidbits. They were little cheese snacks. I 116 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: don't think they make them anymore, but I ate them 117 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: so often as a child. I was about to say 118 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: that sminty esque tidbits sounds like like a British cookie. 119 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: So we've got the library Drink, Library Drink liberry to 120 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: eat with our Sminty esque tidbits. I'm sorry, I will 121 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: get back to the topic at hand, but basically what 122 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm getting at is that, like teaching, and we discussed 123 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: this inner episode on teachers, if you want to go 124 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: back and check that out, men are disproportionately represented at 125 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the top higher ranks of librarianship and library societies. So 126 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: men make up of all university library directors and they 127 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: earn a median a hundred and eleven thousand dollars. And 128 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: it's basically always been this way. Even when the profession 129 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: became incredibly feminized and the ranks were overwhelmingly filled by women, 130 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,359 Speaker 1: men were still at the higher rank of running the libraries, 131 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: and the bigger libraries too, because of how Dewey and 132 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: his male cohorts professionalized librarianship. I mean, they essentially built 133 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: this structure so that men would stay at the top. Yeah. Yeah, 134 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: We've got a quote about that later in the episode. 135 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: Yea um, And really quickly, speaking to the issue of 136 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: diversity and librarianship, we are going to talk about women 137 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: of color and librarianship and also libraries during the civil 138 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: rights movement. In our next episode, stay tuned because real 139 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: red stuff to come. But first, let's talk about the 140 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: original librarians, who were fellows. They were well to do, 141 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: educated guys. That's right. The original librarian, contrary to popular belief, 142 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: was not the ghost from Ghostbusters. Remember I've never seen 143 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: all of Ghostbusters. It's at the very beginning question mark 144 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: up speak. They go, they go to the basement and 145 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: she makes the dewey decimal cards fly everywhere. Oh yes, 146 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: probably so pissed about, do we being a jerk? Anyhoo? Yeah, 147 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: So the original librarians were dudes. They were curmudgeons. They 148 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: were they were curmudgeon ly, as we have established. Um, 149 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: there's a great quote from an article about librarian stereotypes 150 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: and the development of them in American Libraries Magazine which 151 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind subscribing to, which describes these, uh, the 152 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: original librarian image as fusty, white male curmudgeons. Yeah exactly. Yeah, 153 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: So that's not even us slurring these these male librarians. 154 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: So it's sort of is Giles from from Buffy, Yeah, totally, 155 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: I mean cardigans. I don't think that they didn't wear 156 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: cardigans back then. But you know, basically, UM, so let's 157 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: travel back in time though to this male dominated library 158 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: era and this takes us back to the period before 159 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: the Civil War. Uh. We're going to specifically visit Peterborough, 160 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: New Hampshire in eighteen thirty three, which is where we 161 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: get the first free, public tax supported library. And it 162 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: was started by a man named Able Abbot. And I 163 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: seriously like, I couldn't get my internet to work before 164 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: I came into the studio, which is enraging. But I'm 165 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: seriously wondering if I'm related to him, because all of 166 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: my people when they first came to this country. We're 167 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: in Vermont in New Hampshire, and I have some Abbots 168 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: in my family tree. You could be the descendant of 169 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: all Able Abbot, which, by the way, that is a 170 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: great name. All Able Abbot. Well, when he arrived in Peterborough, 171 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:52,079 Speaker 1: he was on this mission to of uplift, such as saying, like, 172 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: you know what, we should have a place with books 173 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: where everyone can come in and check them out and 174 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: read them if they want, so that we can all 175 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: become more virtuous and more virtuous Republican citizens. Um and 176 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: We should note that parochial libraries were established during colonial America. 177 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: But this is the big transition to people actually paying 178 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: to support libraries, which the small town of Peterborough voted 179 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: on in a town meeting. They were like, able abbot, 180 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: that's a terrific idea. We vote yea. We love places 181 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: with books. Yes. And then there was like one naysayer 182 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: in the corner. He was like nay, and all Susan, Susan, 183 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: all Susanan got all town. Um. But this makes sense 184 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: that this was happening in America at this time. So 185 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: this was the Peterborough Library open a eight thirty three, 186 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: and America was coming down with reform fever. Oh yeah, 187 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: this was the beginning of the reform era. So over 188 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: the next few decades you're gonna have the rise of 189 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: the temperance movement, labor reform, common schools, which you can 190 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: learn more about if you go back and listen to 191 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: our episode on teaching. They were also advocating for prison reform, 192 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: specifically not throwing debtors in prison. Uh, the suffrage movement 193 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: was coming about abolition. This was even when we get 194 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: the first vegetarian society. Yeah, and don't we have an episode. 195 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: We have an episode on vegetarian Yes, we did. Our 196 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: catalog is large, it's bursting. Yeah, I feel like this, 197 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: this is really Uh, everything's really coming together in the 198 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: library episode. We've been getting so many emails lately, which 199 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: makes makes me very happy from new listeners, and I 200 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: love being able to respond in the affirmative that we 201 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: do have episodes in our back catalog that they are requesting. 202 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: It's it's very fun and I enjoy I enjoy conversing 203 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: with these new listeners. We almost need a Dewey decimal 204 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: system for our seven hundred episode plus library, although of 205 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: course we would not call it the Dewey simal system 206 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: for reasons the listeners will learn in just a little bit. Yeah, 207 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: people are like, what is the deal with doing so 208 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: much dewing hostilities? Women are so aggressive? Um, yeah, so 209 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: as you might imagine, because you know, Kris and I 210 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: have definitely talked about this reform era and the progressive 211 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: era on the podcast before. But there were a lot 212 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: of ideas around virtue, people wanting to improve themselves help 213 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: lift others so that they could improve themselves, and free 214 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: public libraries were part of that. They were considered a 215 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: sort of democratic gateway for citizens to be able to 216 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: better themselves and thus the country. And then you have 217 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: the issue of common schools popping up. These were kind 218 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: of the predecessors to public schools happening around the same time, 219 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: but they really couldn't open these schools fast enough, so 220 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: libraries also became supplementary to public school education because another 221 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: background idea of all this and the whole push for 222 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: virtue was concerns that if they didn't educate this younger 223 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: generation of newly American citizens in the ways of you know, 224 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: religion and Republican ideals, then you might, oh, I don't know, 225 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: have something like a civil war that would happen. Even 226 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: though even though we got libraries, unfortunately they could not 227 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: prevent a civil war. Well, I mean, but if you 228 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: look at it from the other direction, it makes sense 229 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: because if libraries are part of a reform attitude and 230 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: abolition as part of that, and educating people in the 231 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: ways of you know, not being a jerk is all 232 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: wrapped up in that, then fighting to end slavery in 233 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: public libraries seem to go hand in hand. Very true. 234 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: I like that glass half full perspective. Now, Bostonians listening 235 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: right now might be wondering why we have not mentioned 236 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: their library, because Boston does have a claim to fame 237 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: of opening the nation's first large public library in eighteen 238 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: fifty two, and I would like to note that Boston 239 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: the same year hired a female clerk. Fancy. So good 240 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: on you, Boston, good on you. But the you know, 241 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: the the original is in tiny Peterborough. Yeah, I'm sure 242 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: I would love to go there. You know what, Caroline, 243 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: I think you can really Yeah, okay, I'll have to 244 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: look into this. You just rent a horse and carriage 245 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: from Uber. Oh yeah, and clippity clop of the East 246 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: Coast Cuber Cuber carriage uber or cuber for for horses. Here. 247 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. Um. So, when these 248 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: first libraries were being established, we've already he said that 249 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: it was men running the show, running the books, running 250 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: the books. Um. But it was associated definitely with a 251 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: higher class element of men working as librarians. But it 252 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: was also associated with this idea that you were a 253 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: librarian because you had failed at something else. Perhaps you 254 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: had received a great education, but you were not able 255 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: to become a lawyer or a doctor. So that's where 256 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: we get the stereotype of the male librarian who can't 257 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: do so he libraries. Yeah, because it wasn't considered that 258 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: much of an actual profession because oh, you're just babysitting books. 259 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,120 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds great to me, you know, right, 260 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: pushing a cart listening to music. I'm telling you, God, 261 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: if I had time to read. But in this time, 262 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: the masculine elite status was achieved through breeding, education, and gentility, 263 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: like hard work was not the name of the game. 264 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: So a leisurely occupation considered leisurely in quotes occupation like 265 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: librarianship was something that would have fit into that ideal 266 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: because there was also this paternalistic mission of educating the 267 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: poor through uh you know, all of these books that 268 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: you would essentially be babysitting for them to come in 269 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: and check out and read. Reading. Um so earlier, you know, 270 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned this, this shifting idea of masculinity and what 271 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: the ideal masculinity was. And this happens after the Civil War. 272 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: So rather than the ideal man being this genteel elite 273 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: who sits at home, I don't know, smoking a bubble pipe, 274 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: he probably calls up a humor every now and then 275 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: take a leisurely He probably owns huber while father's father 276 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: did you know when he first came to this country 277 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: and received a land grant um. But so that's how 278 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: we were class warriors. Now we don't care so much 279 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: about being those genteel men wearing tights, and instead we 280 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: get the ideal of the capitalistic, self made man. You know, 281 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: we're leaving the babysitting and preservation of books and culture 282 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: to the women folk. Because this is also the era 283 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: of separate spheres. You know, this is the Victorian era 284 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: is also coming in full steam. And this shift in 285 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: masculinity norms and the separation of those spheres really positioned 286 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: librarianship societally to become a female dominated occupation. But at 287 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: the same time, it also fostered a cultural and downright 288 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: sexist reluctance to consider it a bona fide profession like 289 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: being a doctor or a lawyer, for instance, because it 290 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: was still associated with gentility. So that left the male 291 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: librarians of the day in a little bit of a 292 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: pickle because they're like, okay, we we realized that this 293 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: is rapidly becoming women's work, but we want to be 294 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: respected for this, so, um, we're gonna professionalize it. Yeah, 295 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: and this is where Dewey finally comes out. All Melville 296 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Melville Dewey, which is a really adorable name. It's a 297 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: shame it's attached to such a jerk able Abbott Melville Dewey. 298 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: There's some good names in this stuff. They all sound 299 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: like cartoon character do um. But yeah. So Melvill Dewey 300 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: and his book loving contemporaries, male book loving contemporaries, I 301 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: should say, wanted and therefore worked to professionalize the field. 302 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: They were like, we don't want any of this lucy 303 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: goosey librarian ng. Yeah, I mean and and Dewey was 304 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: also motivated by that shift into you know, the masculine 305 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 1: ideal of the self made man. So he was like, 306 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to take advantage of this 307 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: passion I have for librarianship and this you know, mission 308 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: to build these communities. Um, but at the same time, 309 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: I need respect. So we're going to institute hierarchical organizing 310 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: and standardizing of systems. Because at the time you could 311 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: have a library in Peterborough, New Hampshire, which also doubles 312 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: as the general store and the post office which wonderful, 313 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: I know, right, a real one stop shop. Dudes love 314 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: a hierarchy, it's true. But you have something like that 315 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: which might be a little lucier goosier, and then a 316 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: Boston Public Library, which is obviously much larger and are 317 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: probably running on different kinds of st uxtures. So Dewey's 318 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 1: million dollar idea, although I don't think he ever made 319 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: a million dollars off of it, was too basically institutionalized libraries, Yes, 320 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: that's right, And we start to see the official associations 321 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: and organizations popping up. In eighteen seventy six we get 322 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: the founding of the American Library Association, so we do 323 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: have duty to thank for that. And he was member 324 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: number one because of course he was. Of course he 325 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: was um and like that. He's like the commenters on 326 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: YouTube videos. First. Yeah, really adding to the dialogue. Uh. 327 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: And in eighteen eighties seven, Columbia College establishes its School 328 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: of Library Economy. So schools are being established. The next 329 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: stop on this journey is surely, uh, the continuing trajectory 330 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: of librarianship becoming even more professionalized. Right, But no, no, 331 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: because the Columbia College was essentially like going to a 332 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: technical school because that's what you would be learning. It 333 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: would be getting more of an associate's degree rather than 334 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: a full bachelor degree. Partially because it was rapidly becoming 335 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: so feminized. Because you know, libraries, even from the very beginning, 336 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: as is the case today, did not tend to have 337 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: huge budgets. They were supported by taxes and also trustees, 338 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: and they were like, you know what, we need a 339 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: lot of cheap labor, similar as was happening in public 340 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: schools at the time, like okay, we need teachers and librarians. 341 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: Who is really cheap and does not have a lot 342 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: of job opportunities. Oh women. Women were a cost saving 343 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: measure in the same way that it's like let's use 344 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: the cheaper, you know, desks, or let's buy robots. I 345 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: don't know if those are cheaper. I don't know how 346 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: much of robots going for these days. Probably more than 347 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: I can afford um. But we are about we're on 348 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 1: now the precipice of the Dewey period, and we're gonna 349 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: introduce you more to Dewey when we come right back 350 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: from a quick break, Caroline, We've got some big news 351 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: for the small screen. On July Mr. Robot is coming 352 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: back to USA Network for its second season. That's right, 353 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: It's been hailed by Rolling Stone, is the number one show, 354 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: and named Best Drama by the Golden Globe and Critics 355 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: Choice Awards. Mr Robot follows a cybersecurity engineer who's recruited 356 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: by the mysterious leader of an underground group determined to 357 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: bring down the world's largest corporation. But when their hack 358 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: is a success, that consequences are far greater than they imagined. 359 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: Following the events of f Society's five nine hack on 360 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: multinational company Evil Corps, the second season will explore the 361 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: consequences of that attack, as well as the illusion of Control. 362 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: Starring Rommy Malick and Christian Slater, Mr Robot returns Wednesday, 363 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: July at nine Central, only on USA Network. So if 364 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: you're looking for something to binge on this summer, head 365 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: on over to USA Network on July and tune in 366 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: to Mr. Robot. So let's talk a bit more about Melvill, 367 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: Dewey and the whole Dewey period, which is the period 368 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: of librarianship from around seven to nine, because I mean Dewey, 369 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: yes was kind of the father of librarianship, but he 370 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: was an intense man. Yeah, that's I feel like that's 371 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: very generous. Yes, that is so please tell our listeners 372 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 1: more about just like the type of dude that Dewey was. Uh, 373 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: DoD we do we stopped trying to make fetch happen? Caroline? Um? Well, yeah, 374 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: he was intense. He For one, he absolutely hated the 375 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: idea of wasted time. He advocated for us, all all 376 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: of US Americans to not only adopt the metric system, 377 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: which isn't crazy, that's pretty smart. Um. But he also 378 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: advocated for shortening words and everyone using um shorthand. So 379 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: was do we kind of ahead of his time for 380 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: tech speak? Yeah? Was he totes ahead of his time? 381 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: He was tetes ahead of his time. Um. But part 382 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: of that uh tendency, I guess is that he literally 383 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: had his wife record how each minute of her day 384 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: was spent because he wanted to be sure that his 385 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: spouse was not, you know, twiddling her thumbs during the day. Well, 386 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: are there some contemporary scollers who suggest that do we 387 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: probably had some type of O C D. Yeah? So 388 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: we read this fascinating article giving a glimpse into Dewey's 389 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: background and the author's right that he very likely had 390 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: legit obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which briefly lets distinguish that 391 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: from O c D. So O c D is obviously 392 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: when you have obsessive and compulsive tendencies but they are unwelcome. 393 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: You have intrusive thoughts and intrusive compulsions, and you realize 394 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: it's terrible and you hate it, but you're powerless over it, 395 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: whereas O c p D those compulsions and obsessions energize you. 396 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: So in this article he's compared to like an earlier 397 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, and his very likely O c p D 398 00:27:51,800 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: is also associated with his extremely turbulent and questionable interpersonal relationships, which, 399 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: as we are about to dive into, we're largely with women. Yeah, 400 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: I mean, And and it sounds like from everything that 401 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: we've read about Dewey that his mind just never stopped because, 402 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: in addition to his librarianship passion, he was also an innovator. Generally, 403 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: he was always kind of trying to start up little 404 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial side hustles that would never really take off. Um, 405 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: And when he really dove into librarianship, on the one hand, 406 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: he sounds really progressive at first, because in three he 407 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: hired six Wellesley grads to help him organize the Columbia 408 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: University Library, and of course Wellesley is a women's college, 409 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 1: and the Columbia University staff were scandalized at the idea 410 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: of this guy hiring women, that those vaginas were way 411 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: too close. Yeah, those vaginas out of here, well, I mean, 412 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: and how incompetent they must be, and how could you 413 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: be in such close quarters with them? And Dewey, you know, 414 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: is kind of championing them, being like, no, women, women 415 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: have brands and they're pretty good at using them. So 416 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: point for Dewey, that's all he That's really the only 417 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: point I can give him. Though. Yeah, I feel like 418 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: this is echoes of our look into Jay, Mary and 419 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: Sims where it's like, oh god, you contributed so much, 420 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: but you were also the work our our father of gynecology, 421 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,959 Speaker 1: as he's called. So four years later, in eight seven, 422 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: Dewey insists that women be admitted to Columbia's newly established 423 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: library school, and again the trustees freak out, Oh my god, 424 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna have all these hysterical women around us working 425 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: with books. This is crazy, and and that's actually a 426 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,239 Speaker 1: little bit ironic for like people who are freaking out 427 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: to worry about hysterical women. Right. And also by this time, 428 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: I mean there were a lot of women working as 429 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: clerks and assistants in librarians, but of course Columbia University 430 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: at the time was exclusively male, and most of those 431 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,719 Speaker 1: w then we're able to keep their uteruses from floating away? Well, 432 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: they probably had to kind of, you know, tighten their 433 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: corsets and they got you know, when you get the 434 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: balloon at the grocery store and they give it a 435 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: little plastic disc to wait it down. I think that's 436 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: what they were doing. They had waited gotcha. Um. Well, Dewey, 437 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: to his credit, was like, okay, listen to these trustees 438 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: are not going to officially let these women in. So 439 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: from what it sounded like, he kind of claimed a 440 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: little space like a closet. Yeah, basically he had a shed. 441 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: He found a shed on the Columbia University campus and 442 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: was like, ladies, come on, just come into the shed, ladies, ladies, 443 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: ladies that that doesn't sound shady at all. Dewey's shady shed, um, 444 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: But he was training these women under the radar essentially 445 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: until finally everything came to a head and Columbia was like, listen, 446 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: this is not okay. You have to stop, Like where 447 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: you gotta get out of this. She hate women, and 448 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: we hate that you're in this shed with them. Uh 449 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: so do He resigns in a huff, which again like 450 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: good on Dewey, Okay, he likes stuck by his guns. 451 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: And in nine he's like, peace out Columbia, and he 452 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: transfers the technical school to the New York State Library. 453 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: And as we'll talk about more in the next episode, 454 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: he did train during this period some superstar students who 455 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: became like pioneers in libraries, who created some of the 456 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: staples of libraries that we still use today. Well, sure, 457 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, Kristen, he he was absolutely 458 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: an innovator, and he did believe in women's abilities to 459 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: do this work. And he also, man or woman, had 460 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: incredibly high x spectations of the people who surrounded him. 461 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: And so if you were a like minded person who 462 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: also wanted to have a job, work outside the home, 463 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: wanted to work around books all day, I wanted to 464 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: push those carts um and wanted to learn from someone brilliant, 465 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: then it makes sense that some pretty brilliant women would 466 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: come out from under his tutelage as well. It makes sense, 467 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: But a lot of not so great things came out 468 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: of his working with so many women too. Yeah, they're 469 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,239 Speaker 1: On the one hand, he really got along better with 470 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: women than he did. Oh yeah, with men. He was well, 471 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: he was surrounded almost entirely by women. He almost refused 472 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: to associate with other men. Um And in a way, 473 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: he's kind of the Florence Nightingale of librarians, because well, 474 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: because Florence Nightingale stepped in with nursing and was like, dudes, 475 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: get out of here. Women are better suited for this, 476 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: Like temperamentally, women are suited better to this job nurturing 477 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: and tender and men you just you can't. You don't 478 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: have any bedside manners, so get out of here. And 479 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: in the same way, Dewey thought that women were even 480 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: better suited than men for these technical jobs, more of 481 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: the assistant ships and doing all of the organizing rather 482 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: than the administrating. And the thing is, when he was, 483 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, running his library school, he had some peculiar 484 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: application requirements for his female students, including um, their height, weight, 485 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: hair color, eye, color and a photo, which I have 486 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: a feeling that, like in eight eight ninety, getting a 487 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: photo of yourself seems like you would be kind of hard, right, 488 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: you'd like snap a selfie. Um, But in his words, 489 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: he wanted to know that they would be attractive enough, 490 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: because quote, you can't polish a pumpkin. What that has 491 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: to do with organizing books and classifying them, I don't know, 492 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: but he didn't want any pumpkins essentially. Yeah. And one 493 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: of these articles that we read in the Library Association 494 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: magazine by Joshua Kendall, you phemistically referred to do we 495 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: as a quote cereal hugger and kisser and a literary 496 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: lithario with quirks. Seriously quirks. I mean that makes it 497 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: sound like your dad's or your grandfather's, like creepy friend 498 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: who you know, Like we've all I feel like we've 499 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: all known that creepy Jim, Like why yeah, creepy Jim Batman, 500 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 1: why are you hugging me? Why are you? I don't 501 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: want the sloppy kiss on the cheek, Like this is gross? 502 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: It makes him sound like a harmless duttering? Is that 503 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: a word? Old fool? Who, like I don't know what's 504 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: what's bad and good. I'm gonna hug you. But he did. 505 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: He absolutely did, getting you know, all of those heights, 506 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: weights and um as Joshua Kendall emphasized, not their bust size. 507 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: He was like, there there's a myth that, uh that 508 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: Dewey wanted to know their bus size. That's that's not 509 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: true because he had the picture with which to judge exactly. 510 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: And this whole uh sexual harasser side of Dewey is 511 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: something that has only come to light in more recent 512 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: decades because earlier biographies of him, of course, didn't really 513 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 1: talk about They were like, um, that's a little system. 514 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: He was really smart and he had quirks, but he 515 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: I mean, he essentially sexually harassed many of his students. 516 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: He had two assistants that lived with him and his 517 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: wife in Albany, New York, both of whom were repeatedly harassed. 518 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 1: And Joshua Kendall I have a little bone to pick 519 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: with Joshua Kendall and the way he wrote this uh 520 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: Dewey profile in the A l A magazine because he says, yes, 521 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: Sarah records of him having unwanted contact with his assistance, 522 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: but they never reported it to authorities. I was like, WHOA, okay, well, 523 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: the term sexual harassment didn't exist for another century, Mr Kendall. 524 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: But even though that term didn't exist, there came a 525 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: point it was so egregious that he became known as 526 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: essentially a sexual harasser. However you would have called it 527 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: at that time. Um. And apparently things piqued and went 528 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: public in a Library Association meeting conference in Alaska, which 529 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: that seems like a pretty exotic trip to take um 530 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:53,439 Speaker 1: where he made four librarians female librarians at the time, 531 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: I feel incredibly uncomfortable. And since they were already in 532 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: the profession, they aren't his assistance under his tutelage. They 533 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: were like, whoa, okay, uh, there's a problem here, and 534 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: it is your hands on my body without my consent. Yeah. Well, 535 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean no, they didn't have the words sexual harassment 536 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: to use, but you did have Tessa Kelso, who was 537 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Public Library director, who said, for many 538 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 1: years women librarians have been the special prey of Mr 539 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: Dewey in a series of outrages upon decency. In other words, 540 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: he is a sexual harassing creep. Well, and Mary Wright Plumber, 541 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,919 Speaker 1: who was one of his original students, who will talk 542 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: more about in our next episode, would eventually become uh 543 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: the president of the American Library Association in nineteen fourteen, 544 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: and once she got in that role, she refused to 545 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 1: meet with Dewey. Yeah, but not only for her sake, 546 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: but I got the impression reading the article that it 547 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: was also in solidarity with their women who had dealt 548 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: with his crap. Yeah. Then, like, I promise I won't 549 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: meet with this guy, Like I don't want to talk 550 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: to him, and I know y'all don't want to be 551 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: around him either. But as all of this was going 552 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: on in the background and sometimes in the foreground, the 553 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: library education that he and um other male counterparts were 554 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: architect ing at this time was really designed for essentially 555 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: training Yes, a lot of women. They were welcoming women 556 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: into the fold, but it was training them for lower 557 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: level positions of being clerks, assistance maybe the heads of 558 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: smaller libraries. To the point that publicly, librarianship was just 559 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: considered this, you know, kind of throwaway job for women. 560 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 1: They didn't get paid really anything at all. It didn't 561 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: have a reputation of being super respectable because you couldn't 562 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,919 Speaker 1: go very far in it. So the American Library Association 563 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, we need to kind of burnish our image. 564 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: So they said, you know what hybrid high level librarianship 565 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: being like a capital l librarian, like a Dewey, that 566 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: is something that you were born with. That's such crap. 567 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: I know when I read that, I couldn't believe it, 568 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: because how can you whether it's eighteen seventy, nineteen seventy, 569 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,879 Speaker 1: or twenty seventy, Like, seriously, how can you read that 570 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: and believe it the librarianship. No, I just can't like 571 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: But that also, but that also speaks to the paternalism 572 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,280 Speaker 1: of the occupation at the time too, because they really 573 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: did think they I mean they kind of had a 574 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: little bit of a christ complex about it. Sure well, 575 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: and I mean, who it's not like they were saying, uh, 576 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: you're born with it, whether you're a man or a woman, 577 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: and whether it's maybe lane, you are born with it 578 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: because you're a man. Yeah. And that's something that the 579 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 1: author of paper we were reading on the minization of 580 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: librarianship pointed out um sort of an outrage at this 581 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 1: idea of the suggestion that being a librarian was something 582 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: that you would be born with because, as she wrote, 583 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: because it also required being born with a penis. So yeah, 584 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 1: although maybe you come out of the womb with a 585 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 1: little book in your hand, well then yeah, maybe you 586 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: are born to be a librarian. Um. But with this 587 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: hierarchy that they were establishing, you have sort of a 588 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: pyramid structure with the much higher paid administrators usually men 589 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: at the top in place to kind of tamp down 590 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: on individuals being able to rise up through the ranks. 591 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: So unlike university faculty at the time, which would have 592 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: been mostly men, if you were a professor, you could 593 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: make a name for yourself as a professor and would 594 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: probably be better known than say the adminis straighter of 595 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,080 Speaker 1: that university. But with librarianship and the same thing going 596 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: on with the development of public school teaching and the 597 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: feminization of that, you have these strict standards put in 598 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: place to essentially just like level the playing field. So 599 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: you kind of have to stay in these little boxes 600 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 1: and it's really hard to break through the ranks. You 601 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: kind of have to go around being a clerker assistant 602 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: and jump right into administration. But they weren't training them 603 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: in the library schools because again they thought that it 604 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: was something at that time that you would be born 605 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: with slash penis. And I mean, obviously in the next 606 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: episode we're going to talk more about women and feminization specifically, 607 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: but there was one source that we read that cited 608 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: a male librant, contemporary male librarian, who was saying all 609 00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: of this stuff about how the fact that the lower 610 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: ranks in libraries were dominated by women is what ruined 611 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: essentially ruined the field, which is hilarious if it weren't 612 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,359 Speaker 1: so depressing, because when you look at this stuff, like 613 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,319 Speaker 1: things were engineered to basically, like you were saying, keep 614 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: women in their box or in their lane, keep people 615 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: from advancing up the ranks. And so if you establish 616 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: a system where the only people who are in those 617 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: higher ranked positions are like clearly born to be there 618 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: and they happen to be men, well, how how can 619 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: you break that that book ish ceiling? I mean, you 620 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: really can't. Yeah, I mean, it's also such an ironic 621 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,720 Speaker 1: contrast of the lofty mission of you know, those top 622 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: library administrators of considering themselves really the arbiters of culture 623 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: and learning and virtue for all of these communities and 624 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: these developing urban centers, but at the same time keeping 625 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,360 Speaker 1: women's work in the field devalued. And it's also worth noting, 626 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,280 Speaker 1: if we jumped forward in our timeline, that in nineteen 627 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,399 Speaker 1: thirty a seventy eight year old doing settled for two 628 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a sexual harassment lawsuit brought against him. And 629 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: of course, again we don't have the term sexual harassment yet, 630 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,280 Speaker 1: which should tell you something even more that before people 631 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: were literally and legally protected from issues of sexual harassment. 632 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 1: A woman sued him for his behavior, which is why 633 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: I suggested to Caroline that the Dewey decimal system should 634 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: be renamed to what. I'm not sure, but listeners, I 635 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 1: am open to suggestion, because there's so many amazing women 636 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,200 Speaker 1: librarians that you could uh name it after. But of course, 637 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 1: I mean, that's never going to happen. But because we're 638 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: only just now really acknowledging the fact that Dewey and 639 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: his personal life was kind of a shady dude. Not 640 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: kind of he was a shady dude. Was a shady dudeum, 641 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 1: But in that regard, I really am interested to hear 642 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: from our librarian listeners. I know you guys have a 643 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: lot to tell us about Dewey, and so I'm interested 644 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: to hear, like, do you do you feel a degree 645 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: of conflict when you look at him as the father 646 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: of librarianship who was also shady in the shed? Yeah, 647 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: I mean, because that is the thing that his profiler, 648 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: Joshua Kendall, in that ail a magazine piece, was kind 649 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: of wavering between like the acknowledgment of like, Okay, yeah, 650 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: he was a quote serial hugger and kisser, but he 651 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 1: was so brilliant and he, you know, gave us this 652 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: thing which did revolutionize our learning, our public learning. Yeah, 653 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,839 Speaker 1: I mean, Steve Jobs was also a creep. But we 654 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: all have iPhones, you know. I mean yeah, it's like, 655 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: do do the ends justify the sexually harassing means? Yeah? 656 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,319 Speaker 1: And I'm and I'm not saying that Steve Jobs is 657 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: the harasser. I don't know about that. I just know 658 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 1: that he was incredibly difficult and and and tempestuous. Well yeah, 659 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: they seem to have similar temperaments for sure. Um, But quickly, 660 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 1: in terms of men and librarian stereotypes, because it was 661 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: so feminized so quickly, by the time you get into 662 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, you get the stereotype of male librarians 663 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 1: having to be gay because how could a straight guy 664 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: want to do quote unquote women's work. And it seems 665 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: like from more recent research that the stereotype has fallen 666 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: away and that men don't feel, you know, uncomfortable being 667 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: librarians because they worried that people might assume that they're gay, 668 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: like they might have and say like nineteen fifty or sixty. Um. 669 00:45:53,320 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: But in terms of that administrative hierarchy, after World War Two, 670 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: there was I think from the American Library Association a 671 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,239 Speaker 1: recruitment effort specifically for men to get more men in libraries, 672 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 1: but not as clerks for assistance, but into administrative roles 673 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: make libraries great again. Yeah, So it just it just 674 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: kept on going. So with this, we're gonna close the 675 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: book on dudes and librarians. Dudes and dewey dewey dudes, 676 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: UM and librarians. We absolutely want to hear from you 677 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: about this, and male librarians listening. We want you to 678 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,399 Speaker 1: weigh into We want everyone to weigh in, UM and 679 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: also quickly thank you. Librarians like teachers, I feel like 680 00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: they're always so undervalued in our communities but indispensable. So 681 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: mom stuff at how stuffworks dot Com is our email address. 682 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 683 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 684 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I have a 685 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: letter here from Ella in response to our Boston Marriages episode. 686 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: She says, I think Boston marriages may be more common 687 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,160 Speaker 1: than we think among young people. I'm not that aunt yet, 688 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: but I have every intention of being one eventually. My roommate, 689 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: that's her quotes and my ridiculous way of speaking. My 690 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: quote unquote roommate and I are both in our twenties. 691 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: We share a bed and a dog and often describe 692 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,399 Speaker 1: each other as our girlfriend or partner to explain why 693 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: we have no interest in dating other people. But neither 694 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: of us is into ladies. Were just uninterested in traditional 695 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: romantic entanglements. I'm a sexual and she's elapsed straight person 696 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,960 Speaker 1: who's disillusioned with men. And we save an awful lot 697 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,319 Speaker 1: on rent by sharing a bedroom and a wardrobe. I've 698 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: never seen a reason why I would want to stop 699 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,560 Speaker 1: living with a roommate, even if I could afford it, 700 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 1: other than that's what's expected of me. It's a sleepover 701 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: every day, and my ten year old self is really 702 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,319 Speaker 1: and truly living the dream. Thanks really awesome episode. I 703 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: never knew what to call what we do before, and 704 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: it's genuinely a great relief to have a label to 705 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: apply to myself other than just weird. And if I 706 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: ever marry her for tax reasons, the invitation is absolutely 707 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,280 Speaker 1: going to read please join us in celebrating our Boston marriage, 708 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: and everyone but you and me will just think it's 709 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: a weird reference to the fact that we lived in 710 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: Boston for a while, You're totally invited. Well, thank you, 711 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,319 Speaker 1: Ella for that great story. So I have a letter 712 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 1: here from Francis also about our Boston marriages episode, and 713 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: Frances rites, I grew up in the Bible Belt and 714 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,399 Speaker 1: never knew that lesbian couplings were so accepted. I don't 715 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: have a personal experience with a Boston marriage, but whatever 716 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: the male equivalent is, I do. My grandfather was originally 717 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: a New Englander, but after marrying my grandmother, they moved 718 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,840 Speaker 1: to North Carolina, where my mother was born, and I 719 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,640 Speaker 1: spent most of my life I didn't know anything about 720 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: same sex couplings, and growing up in the eighties and nineties, 721 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: we free when we visited Confirmed bachelor friends of my grandfather's. 722 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: Not until many years later did I realize those men 723 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: were actually long term, monogamous gay men. My parents are 724 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 1: extremely against homosexuality, but to hear my mother lovingly speak 725 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 1: of these men is interesting. I think a lot of 726 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 1: our society's issues come from not understanding the humanity of 727 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: people who are different than us and refusing to know 728 00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:28,240 Speaker 1: them as individuals with feelings and personalities. All that said, 729 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: is there a term for men in Boston marriages? I'd 730 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: be interested to know. I love the podcast and now 731 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: I forced my husband to listen. Well, thank you so much, Francis. Um. 732 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 1: I think that we could call male Boston marriages what 733 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,840 Speaker 1: like um, maybe like a Philly marriage, Key West marriages? 734 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: Key West marriages? Yeah, what's a really like? Dudely City 735 00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: San Antonio marriages? Sure? Well, keep your letters coming, mom, 736 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: stuff But how stuff Works dot com is our email 737 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: address and for links all of our social media as 738 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with 739 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 1: our sources. So you too can learn about Melville Dewey. 740 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,879 Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot 741 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,600 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 742 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works? Dot com