WEBVTT - #446 Jason Flom with Dan Carnevale 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.120 On January seventeenth, nineteen ninety three, a fire ripped through 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:13.360 two adjacent apartment buildings in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Many onlookers, including 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.960 a man named Dan Carnivali, witnessed the mayhem that took 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:22.439 three lives. Soon information was released to the media that 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.520 two blank checks and a set of keys had been 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:30.639 taken from the apartment building. Dan Carnivali's roommates once found 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.080 a number of old checks from that apartment complex under 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.960 his bet, so they reported him to the police. After 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.440 Dan convinced police that he had come upon the blaze 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.839 after the fact, he was released and he moved to California. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.879 The case went cold for nearly fourteen years until an 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.760 eyewitness came forward with a different account of Dan's whereabouts 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.400 that night. Dan was dragged back to Pennsylvania, where he 0:00:55.440 --> 0:01:00.880 allegedly confessed to a fellow inmate while awaiting trial, saying 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.080 that he was in fact the culprit all those many 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:16.520 years ago. But this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful conviction has 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.880 always given voice to innocent people in prison. Now we're 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.440 expanding that voice to you. Call us at eight three 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.840 three two O seven four six sixty six and leave 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.160 us a message, tell us how these powerful, often tragic 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.400 stories make you feel outraged, inspired, motivated. 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:35.720 We want to know. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:37.280 We may even include. 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:38.560 Your story in a future episode. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.840 Call us A three three two O seven four six 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:53.760 sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.160 an alleged arson case out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, again involving 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.520 ATF agents William Patritis and Jason Wick, as well as 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.120 ATF chemist William Kinnard. And you may remember one or 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:07.960 all of them from the cases of Greg Brown and 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.160 Christine Bunch, and of course we'll have both of those 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.240 stories linked in the episode description. But now we're going 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:18.520 to hear from another one of their victims, Dan Carnivale. Dan, 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:22.400 I'm so sorry for the reason you're here and for 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.600 what you went through, but we're so happy and honored 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.799 to have you here today. Thank you and joining him. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.120 You may recognize her from our coverage of Greg Brown's case. 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:36.799 She's the managing attorney of the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, Liz Deloso. 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:38.560 Yeah, thank you so much for having me. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.400 Glad to have you, and last but not least, Dan 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:46.120 civil attorney Alec Right, Alec, Welcome, to wrongful conviction. Thanks 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.640 for having me Now. Alec understanding is that you're also 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.480 from Pittsburgh. But this fire happened way back in ninety 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.240 three when you were still just a kid, while Dan 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.440 at the time was already twenty nine. But crazily he 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.400 didn't get prosecuted until weeen years after that. But before 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.520 we unpack all of that, Dan, I want to hear 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:06.640 more about what it was like growing up in Pittsburgh 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.800 and being a teenager in the Steel City at that time. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.200 You were raised in Polish Hill, right. 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.160 Yes, I grew up on Polish Show in Pittsburgh. I 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.520 mean I did everything every other teenager did. Drank Bear 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:19.519 in the Woods. 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.880 Well, if I grew up there, I pretty much can 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.760 guarantee I would have been right next to you. 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.000 That makes all of us separality. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:30.519 My house, Dan, just so you know, had the woods 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.000 behind it where we stashed the beer Steel City reserved. Dan, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:35.840 Was that a beer that you guys had at Polish Hill? 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.880 Yeah, but I derailed the night train a few times too. 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.800 During his twenties, Dan moved across Pittsburgh to the tightly 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.120 knit Italian neighborhood of Bloomfield, where he was familiar with 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.040 the buildings in which the nineteen ninety three fire occurred. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.040 I made some mistakes growing up, and I had some 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.600 hard times in my twenties. I was a male thief. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.080 That was what linked me to the building, because I 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.040 was still in their mail from the mailboxes. I would 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.200 get the checks from the building and take them to 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.520 poll the show and have somebody cash them for me. 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.480 I mean, I drank out every night practically. I just 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.000 I like to buy drinks and make myself look like 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.360 I had money, and that night was no exception. I 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.440 just went to the Luna that of karaoke to have 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:25.960 a DJ whatever. I'd hang out there until they closed, 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:28.280 and then I'd walk back to Bloomfield where I lived. 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.720 Most of that night I don't remember, but I do 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.680 remember being at the sandwich shop and I was with 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.279 other people watching the fire. There was just a load 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:41.320 of people there and people hanging out the windows, people 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.800 screaming and yelling. Just that's I remember that. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.880 During the early morning hours of January seventeenth, nineteen eighty three, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.559 while Dan was closing down the Lunar Bar and headed 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.440 to a local sandwich shop, a fire began at the 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.719 nearby Columbia Apartment Building and spread next door to an 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.280 apartment building called the Regal. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.520 Emergency calls started to come in around four am. By 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:08.440 five thirty, it's a six alarm fire. The fire has 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.280 moved from where it began in the basement all the 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:17.120 way to the roof, and the northwest corner of the 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:22.600 Columbia Apartment building collapses. Three apartment residents are killed. One 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.279 visitor is very severely injured. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.520 That was twenty year old Linda McCutcheon who was staying 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.200 with her friend. Twenty two year old Christopher Stallman, who 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.520 leapt to his death to escape the flames. Sixty three 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.680 year old Lawrence Lychkoe and thirty one year old Anita 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.560 Emery died from smoke in elation. Thankfully, twenty nine other 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.239 residents managed to survive, and they all reported the same thing. 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:52.280 In the weeks prior to the fire. Witnesses would later 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.240 tell investigators that they had like buzzing and clicking and 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.599 banging within their radiators, that some apartments were really hot 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.200 and some apartments were not receiving heat at all, and 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.200 then justin the hours prior to like these nine to 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.440 one one calls coming in we have a hissing, a buzzing, 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.039 and banging within the radiators. You know, later in litigation, 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.640 as we are investigating Dan's case, or expert Douglas Carpenter, 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.200 one of the things that really stood out to Doug 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:25.040 was the fact that a manual boiler, so a boiler 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.880 that really required someone to keep up with it and 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.080 to manually feed the water into that boiler to make 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.080 sure that it wasn't overheating. That boiler would have had 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:39.120 all of these signs or symptoms if it was malfunctioning 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.760 in the days and weeks prior to the fire. Unfortunately, 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.640 these apartment residents were not interviewed until days and weeks 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.520 after the arson determination. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.839 Before speaking with these folks, the Pittsburgh Arson Squad had 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.600 called in the ATF to assist with the investigation. 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:01.359 These are two ATF agents that investigated the Greg Brown case, 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.320 William Patritis and Jason Wick, and they're doing the same 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.840 thing right. They're making this arson determination very quickly after 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.240 the fire has been suppressed on visual inspection alone, without 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.240 the use of any other experts, without ruling out any 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:21.679 additional accidental causes, without all of the chemical analysis having 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.120 been even sent to the ACF laboratory without witness interviews 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:31.760 being completed, and they're not using the NFPA nine twenty one, 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.000 which at that point in nineteen ninety three was in 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:36.200 its first publication. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.760 The NFPA nine twenty one is the National Fire Protection 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:44.720 Association's investigation guide that signaled a paradigm shift towards the 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.520 scientific method and away from the myths and folklore nonsense 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:53.920 that have been handed down by arson investigation predecessors visual 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.840 cues that were believed to indicate that a fire had 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.160 been intentionally set with accelerants. Modern science has proved that 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.360 none of that stuff is true, but it was relied on, 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.840 and sadly in some places it still relied on for 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.800 generations and generations and generations. We'll have our coverage of 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.440 arson investigation on wrongful conviction junk science linked in the 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:20.720 episode description as well. But anyway, these ATF agents totally 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:25.840 ignored this paradigm shift from myth to science and instead 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.120 search for support for that determination that they had already made, 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:31.200 and they interviewed some of the people who worked at 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:31.880 these buildings. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.560 So the Regal Apartment building and the Columbia Apartment Building 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:40.839 are connected in the basement via several locked doors. In 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.160 the Regal apartment building, there was a can of laquer 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:47.079 thinner near kind of like the back end of the basement. 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.680 One of the maintenance men tells investigators, I can't find 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.760 that can. It may have been moved. Later, they find 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:59.280 a can of lacquer thinner in the maintenance room of 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.760 the Columbia Apartment building, and that starts to turn the 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:06.080 wheels for investigators that that must have been the can 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.920 of lacker thinner that was originally stored in the Regal 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.679 Apartment building. Although there are lots and lots of chemicals 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.760 in this maintenance room, there is a insecticide, there's gasoline, 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.360 there's a charcoal grill, there's lacquer thinner, there's no reason 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:28.040 to believe that like this can of lacker thinner was 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.040 intentionally moved by a perpetrator. It simply could have been 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.719 moved by one of the maintenance men, of which there 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.120 were several, or just a different can of laquer thinner. 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.840 But that piques the investigator's interests. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.760 Then Patritis and Wick sent fifteen samples from the building 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.800 to their boy in the ATF Lab William Canard. 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.880 William Canard has a conversation with William Patritis prior to 0:09:55.040 --> 0:10:01.360 finalizing his report, and he says that in samples three, nine, ten, 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:06.120 and six, there are elements that lead into believe that 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.360 there was a presence of Lacquer Center, which was used 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.200 as an accelerant to start this fire. 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.760 And now what they needed was the right suspect. At 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.200 this point, they had heard from a guy named Chris 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.839 palm Mary who found two sets of keys and blank 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.120 checks from the Columbia in front of one of the 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:27.240 building owners's homes, and this information was leaked to the 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.079 local media, which piqued the interest of Dan's roommates Keith 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.000 Playtech and Tammy Mancini. 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.520 The only thing that attached him to the Columbia apartment 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:41.560 buildings at the time was Tammy Mancini and Keith Playtech saying, 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:43.360 you know that they found these checks. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.760 Yeah, they found checks under the mattress of the bed 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.440 I slept in, but they were old. They just happened 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:50.760 to have that address on them. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.800 So when Dan was interviewed about that, you know, he 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.839 readily admitted, yes, this was my cash cow. I stole 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.240 checks from this place. So the police say, he needs 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.920 your jacket for testing. He says, take my jacket for testing. 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.959 They say, sit down for a polygraph test. He sits 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.080 down for a polygraph test. 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.240 Oh, add they lost the coat and they losched a 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:11.160 polygraph test. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.120 Both items cleared Dan, but if they hadn't, surely they 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.800 would have been saved. Additionally, Dan had his alibi and 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.559 no way of having been able to get into these buildings. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.280 Every exterior door to this building was locked. The maintenance 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.880 room where they say the fire started was locked. The 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.160 office where two blank checks and keys that are later 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.680 found on the owner of the building's doorstep after this 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.880 fire was locked. The room in the regal building where 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.280 Liz was describing, you name your accelerant, that's in this room, okay. 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:41.240 Locked. 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.160 The access to the regal building is an l two 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.800 by four over the door. Can't get into it. Everywhere 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.160 down of this basement locked, and everybody tells them this. 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.800 August Paluso, the owner of the building, Orlando Syrium Belly, 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.839 who is the person who actually goes in and locks 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.800 the doors that night, and Ronald t who is one 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.200 of the maintenance people at the time, all say everything's locked. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.839 Dan has only ever taken checks from an outdoor courtyard. 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:12.520 So if this had been arson, the assailant either had 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.240 to have had keys or have broken in somehow. So 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.600 the when this interviews continued and one building resident, Paul Parter, 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.240 said that he had heard a party going on that night, 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.359 which corroborated a statement from a guy named Sean Maxwell. 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.959 On January eighteenth of nineteen ninety three, the day after 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.480 this fire, Sean Maxwell comes forward and says, the guy 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.160 named Larry Steele shows up to my house a few 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.439 hours after this fire. He's covered in soot, talking about 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.280 how he broke into this Columbia apartment building with some friends. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.320 They were drinking, and he says, we burned down the 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.560 building by accident. If you tell anybody about it, I 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.640 will kill you and I will kill your grandmother. Sean 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.160 Maxwell tells police investigators, I know who did it, and 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:58.080 I know the name of the guy that he was with. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.160 His name was Rob Zacharias. While this is going on, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.520 a couple other witnesses in the neighborhood, and you have 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.480 to understand Pittsburgh to really grasp this. Bloomfield is an 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:12.160 old Italian town in Pittsburgh, and everybody knows everybody in 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.800 the neighborhood, and one of the things that these individual 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.040 residents are talking about is that there is an individual 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:21.640 with long sandy blondehair's shoulder length in an army field 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.319 jacket that we don't know who's watching this fire. They 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.640 actually create a composite sketch, and this individual matches one 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.720 of two people, First Rob Zacharias, who was the same 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.480 individual that Larry Steele said earlier he was with that night. Second, 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:39.200 a former maintenance man by the name of Glenn Spoon, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:43.200 who is fired from the property a year ago, but 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.920 Paul Potter says, is spotted a day or two before 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.320 this fire, and one of the only individuals other than 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:52.280 the owner of the building who have keys to those 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.800 locked rooms. He matches the description of the composite sketch. 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:00.640 Two more individuals were identified who also matched this description. However, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.000 who even knows if this stranger had anything to do 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.720 with the fire or if Larry Steele had ever even 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:11.319 made this confession about him or about Rob Zacharias. Considering 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.240 that this fire in all likelihood was a tragic accident, 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.880 the presence of this alleged suspect with sandy blonde hair 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.480 and an army field jacket had both dubious value and 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:26.520 was also definitely not Dan. The description set five to 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.400 ten and Dan is six', four so that's not even. 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.240 Close and it appears that yet another witness Named Shane, 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:34.400 evans confirmed That. 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.040 Shane evans grew up With DAN carnivali would know him 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.040 from one hundred yards, away would know him from one 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.160 hundred inches. Away Shane evans is watching the fire happen 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.960 On january, seventeenth nineteen ninety, three four, am four, fifteen 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.560 around five, am he leaves the. Fire he finds a 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.160 fire personnel and he says to, THEM i was walking 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.680 by The columbia about five minutes before the fire broke. 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.280 OUT i heard a door close of The columbia apartment. 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.680 BUILDING i turned around in a very well lit, area 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.600 could not see his. Face the person was unknown to, 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.520 me but had sandy long blonde hair shoulder length and 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.760 an army field. Jacket and fire personnel say go tell police. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:19.160 Investigators So Shane evans did exactly. That he told three 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:20.440 investigators what he had. 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.160 Seen wait do you hear what he? Said thirteen years? 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:39.040 Later you're listening to Wrongful. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.720 Conviction you can listen to this and all The lava 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.880 For good podcasts one week early and ad free by 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:55.000 subscribing To lava For Good plus On Apple. Podcasts After 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.200 dan cooperated to the fullest with law, enforcement his jacket 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:02.920 tested negative for. Accelerants he passed a, polygraph which has limited, 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:07.040 value but still he was released and he grew a 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:07.960 bit cold On. 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.360 Pittsburgh pittsburgh was bad for. Me all my friends were 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.960 dying of. Overdoses everybody was dying Of China white And 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.640 iroin and in this and. THAT i JUST i had 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.800 to get. AWAY i couldn't take it any. Where the 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.920 police were at my parents' house every other day about something. 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.560 Stupid most of IT i knew nothing. About about a 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.400 month or or so after, THAT i moved To. CALIFORNIA 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:31.480 i have a friend who lives out there In Humble. 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.560 COUNTY i called the police From california and told HIM 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.240 i was. There that you, know if you need me 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.800 for any further, questioning this is Where i'm. At it 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.440 wasn't LIKE i was living in the mountain siding from. 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.880 ANYBODY i just wanted to start, over SO i. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:50.080 Left the case went cold for nearly fourteen, years and 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.440 during that Time dan had built himself a, happy comfortable. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.120 LIFE i had a. FAMILY i had a, WIFE i 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:00.640 had step, KIDS i had a. HOUSE i had a good. 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.600 JOB i was working in a lumber mill eighty eighty 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.320 five thousand a. YEAR i finally was doing good in my, life, 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.520 finally and then everything went down. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:13.600 Hill in early two thousand and, Six Pittsburgh police cold 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:18.040 case Detective Scott evans And. Jr smith inexplicably. Reopened in 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:19.920 nineteen ninety Three columbia fire. 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:24.240 Investigation they do a huge press release Where Scott evans And. 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.680 Jr smith release all of the information that we've talked 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.840 about so far out to the. News then they put 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.159 a ten thousand dollars reward in the paper for anybody for, 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.480 information and thirteen years later on a ten thousand dollars. 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.760 Reward in this press, release they talked To Shane, evans who, says, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.920 now in this well lit, AREA i saw six foot 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.560 Four DAN carnivali face to face leaving That columbia apartment. 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.440 Building they Asked Shane evans in nineteen ninety, three did 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:54.879 you know Who DAN carnivali? Was And Shane, evans of course, 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:57.640 SAYS i grew up with him my whole. Life one 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.640 hundred percent it was, him AND i was watching the 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:04.840 fire later and he came up to me, unsolicited unprovoked 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.760 and screamed out. LOUD i was at the sandwich. Shop 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.840 and when he testifies at, trial he says those same, 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.400 things except he also, says and by the, Way Dan 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.760 carnivali was covered with. Soot, now let's remember some of 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.240 the things that we've talked about so. Far Dan carnivali 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:23.320 had told everybody his alibi that he was at the 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:26.399 sandwich shop after being at the lunar. Bar we also 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.240 know from the criminal investigation file That Larry, steele in 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.080 his confession was covered in. Soot Shane evans is receiving 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.040 information somewhere from someone to add those two pieces of 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.720 information into this. Situation when he told everybody in nineteen ninety, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.000 three when the fire was still, going that he did 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:46.320 not recognize the person. 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.520 All of a, sudden in two thousand and, six it was. 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:49.520 Me he saw. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.600 Me ten grand can be pretty. Persuasive and, meanwhile the 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.080 state disposed of those original statements from nineteen ninety three 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:00.960 in Which evans had said he could and identify the, 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:05.200 suspect only sharing this two thousand and Six david which 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:06.040 goner the arrest. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.159 WERERANT i was coming home From warp one, day riding 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.719 up to my, house AND i knew there was a 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.440 helicopter following, me and it was driving all the way 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.439 up through fifty UNTIL i got close to my, house 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.560 and then the car pulled out beside me and the 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.520 lights went, on and THEN i seen The pennsylvania badges 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.400 AND i was, like, oh what the. Hell so then 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.200 they started questioning me about the. FIRE i told them 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.840 a million TIMES i did not do, This you're making a. 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.480 Mistake but all they kept doing was yelling at, me, 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.840 well think about the people that are, Dead, well think 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:39.760 about what you're. Doing you're a resting or wrong, person 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:41.920 so you know WHAT i. Mean that's all they kept telling. 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:43.639 ME i didn't know what to tell. Them FINALLY i, 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:45.240 said let me have an. ATTORNEY i don't want to 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.800 talk to you'all. Anymore next thing you, Know i'm sitting 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:48.919 in the county jail. 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.520 And now emerges a jail house informant by the name 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:55.919 Of Sean. Burns here's What Sean burns tells everybody in 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.680 all of this, Time DAN carnivali explains To Sean burns 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:03.560 this individual in protective custody The Alleghany County jail is 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.159 THAT i didn't mean to burn down the, building but 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.360 what happened WAS i was at the bar and somebody 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:12.720 told me that it's possible that in the future they 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.840 might put video surveillance on The Columbia apartment, building and 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.600 so in order to get ahead of them setting up video, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:24.440 Surveillance i'm gonna break into The columbia And i'm gonna 0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:27.359 go into the, office BUT i don't find any video. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.600 Surveillance it's not. There but just out of an abundance of, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.399 Caution i'm gonna take this can of lacquer thinner And 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.439 i'm gonna douse the, office not the, maintenance from the 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.919 office with this whole, can and then i'm gonna light a. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.320 Match i'm gonna throw it behind, me And i'm gonna 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.560 walk out with the can of lacquer, thinner get rid of, 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:48.520 it and hopefully that fire will contain itself in that 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.960 office and burn the video surveillance equipment THAT i couldn't 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.040 find in THAT i don't know. Exists and in the, 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.119 Process i'm gonna take two blank checks and instead of 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:58.080 them onto the owner and then go set them down 0:20:58.280 --> 0:20:59.920 on the doorstep of the owner. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.399 Building the allegend motive was as far fetched as it 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.560 was inconsistent with THE atfs, theory which if their theory 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.919 is to be, believed then why Was burn's alleging That 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.440 dan burned the, office not the maintenance rough and then 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.800 left with the lacquer thinner when the can was in 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:23.800 fact found in the. Building either, Way Sean burns did 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:25.199 not make this statement for. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.000 Free Sean burns had gun. Charges he also had some kid, 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.520 charges some child rape, things and if he would have 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.400 went to state, prison he wouldn't have made it. Through 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.479 so he was doing anything he could do to come 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.520 up with getting himself out of, jail and he got 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.439 out of jail four days after my. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.359 Trial what we later find, Out Sean burns has not 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:51.640 only testified In Daniel carnivali's case during two thousand and, 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.560 Seven he's testified on behalf of the commonwealth as an 0:21:55.600 --> 0:21:58.520 informant in two other cases just. 0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:02.120 That year for the same, prosecutor for the very same. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.200 Prosecutor they got the deal of a century for cerial. 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:11.520 Cooperation so it seems like this, Prosecutor jennifer Di, giovanni 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:16.480 was willing to overlook the inconsistencies In burns's statement to 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.760 try to close The columbia, firecase and With Shane evans 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.640 And Sean burns in her back, pocket she Offered dan 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.960 three and a half to seven. Years pretty incredible deal 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:28.919 if you think about. It if she really thought he 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.320 was guilty of a triple, MURDERER i. 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.040 Wasn't taking a. PLEA i wouldn't care what they were giving. 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.280 ME i didn't do, it And i'm not taking a. 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.479 PLEA i really thought that there was no way they 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:43.240 could find someone guilty that wasn't. GUILTY i JUST i 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:44.560 found out the hard. WAY i was. 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:47.439 Roam dan went to trial In august two thousand and 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.040 seven with his Attorney Frank, walker and in addition To 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.520