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Speaker 1: On January seventeenth, nineteen ninety three, a fire ripped through

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Speaker 1: two adjacent apartment buildings in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Many onlookers, including

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Speaker 1: a man named Dan Carnivali, witnessed the mayhem that took

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Speaker 1: three lives. Soon information was released to the media that

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Speaker 1: two blank checks and a set of keys had been

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Speaker 1: taken from the apartment building. Dan Carnivali's roommates once found

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Speaker 1: a number of old checks from that apartment complex under

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Speaker 1: his bet, so they reported him to the police. After

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Speaker 1: Dan convinced police that he had come upon the blaze

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Speaker 1: after the fact, he was released and he moved to California.

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Speaker 1: The case went cold for nearly fourteen years until an

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Speaker 1: eyewitness came forward with a different account of Dan's whereabouts

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Speaker 1: that night. Dan was dragged back to Pennsylvania, where he

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Speaker 1: allegedly confessed to a fellow inmate while awaiting trial, saying

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Speaker 1: that he was in fact the culprit all those many

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Speaker 1: years ago. But this is wrongful conviction. Wrongful conviction has

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Speaker 1: always given voice to innocent people in prison. Now we're

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Speaker 1: expanding that voice to you. Call us at eight three

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Speaker 1: three two O seven four six sixty six and leave

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Speaker 1: us a message, tell us how these powerful, often tragic

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Speaker 1: stories make you feel outraged, inspired, motivated.

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Speaker 2: We want to know.

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Speaker 1: We may even include.

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Speaker 2: Your story in a future episode.

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Speaker 1: Call us A three three two O seven four six

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Speaker 1: sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction, where we've got

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Speaker 1: an alleged arson case out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, again involving

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Speaker 1: ATF agents William Patritis and Jason Wick, as well as

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Speaker 1: ATF chemist William Kinnard. And you may remember one or

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Speaker 1: all of them from the cases of Greg Brown and

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Speaker 1: Christine Bunch, and of course we'll have both of those

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Speaker 1: stories linked in the episode description. But now we're going

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Speaker 1: to hear from another one of their victims, Dan Carnivale. Dan,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for the reason you're here and for

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Speaker 1: what you went through, but we're so happy and honored

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Speaker 1: to have you here today. Thank you and joining him.

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Speaker 1: You may recognize her from our coverage of Greg Brown's case.

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Speaker 1: She's the managing attorney of the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, Liz Deloso.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Glad to have you, and last but not least, Dan

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Speaker 1: civil attorney Alec Right, Alec, Welcome, to wrongful conviction. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me Now. Alec understanding is that you're also

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Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh. But this fire happened way back in ninety

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Speaker 1: three when you were still just a kid, while Dan

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Speaker 1: at the time was already twenty nine. But crazily he

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Speaker 1: didn't get prosecuted until weeen years after that. But before

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Speaker 1: we unpack all of that, Dan, I want to hear

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Speaker 1: more about what it was like growing up in Pittsburgh

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Speaker 1: and being a teenager in the Steel City at that time.

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Speaker 1: You were raised in Polish Hill, right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I grew up on Polish Show in Pittsburgh. I

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Speaker 4: mean I did everything every other teenager did. Drank Bear

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Speaker 4: in the Woods.

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Speaker 1: Well, if I grew up there, I pretty much can

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Speaker 1: guarantee I would have been right next to you.

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Speaker 4: That makes all of us separality.

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Speaker 5: My house, Dan, just so you know, had the woods

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Speaker 5: behind it where we stashed the beer Steel City reserved. Dan,

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Speaker 5: Was that a beer that you guys had at Polish Hill?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but I derailed the night train a few times too.

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Speaker 1: During his twenties, Dan moved across Pittsburgh to the tightly

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Speaker 1: knit Italian neighborhood of Bloomfield, where he was familiar with

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Speaker 1: the buildings in which the nineteen ninety three fire occurred.

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Speaker 4: I made some mistakes growing up, and I had some

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Speaker 4: hard times in my twenties. I was a male thief.

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Speaker 4: That was what linked me to the building, because I

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Speaker 4: was still in their mail from the mailboxes. I would

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Speaker 4: get the checks from the building and take them to

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Speaker 4: poll the show and have somebody cash them for me.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I drank out every night practically. I just

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Speaker 4: I like to buy drinks and make myself look like

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Speaker 4: I had money, and that night was no exception. I

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Speaker 4: just went to the Luna that of karaoke to have

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Speaker 4: a DJ whatever. I'd hang out there until they closed,

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Speaker 4: and then I'd walk back to Bloomfield where I lived.

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Speaker 4: Most of that night I don't remember, but I do

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Speaker 4: remember being at the sandwich shop and I was with

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Speaker 4: other people watching the fire. There was just a load

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Speaker 4: of people there and people hanging out the windows, people

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Speaker 4: screaming and yelling. Just that's I remember that.

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Speaker 1: During the early morning hours of January seventeenth, nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 1: while Dan was closing down the Lunar Bar and headed

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Speaker 1: to a local sandwich shop, a fire began at the

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Speaker 1: nearby Columbia Apartment Building and spread next door to an

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Speaker 1: apartment building called the Regal.

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Speaker 3: Emergency calls started to come in around four am. By

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Speaker 3: five thirty, it's a six alarm fire. The fire has

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Speaker 3: moved from where it began in the basement all the

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Speaker 3: way to the roof, and the northwest corner of the

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Speaker 3: Columbia Apartment building collapses. Three apartment residents are killed. One

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Speaker 3: visitor is very severely injured.

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Speaker 1: That was twenty year old Linda McCutcheon who was staying

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Speaker 1: with her friend. Twenty two year old Christopher Stallman, who

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Speaker 1: leapt to his death to escape the flames. Sixty three

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Speaker 1: year old Lawrence Lychkoe and thirty one year old Anita

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Speaker 1: Emery died from smoke in elation. Thankfully, twenty nine other

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Speaker 1: residents managed to survive, and they all reported the same thing.

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Speaker 3: In the weeks prior to the fire. Witnesses would later

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Speaker 3: tell investigators that they had like buzzing and clicking and

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Speaker 3: banging within their radiators, that some apartments were really hot

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Speaker 3: and some apartments were not receiving heat at all, and

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Speaker 3: then justin the hours prior to like these nine to

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Speaker 3: one one calls coming in we have a hissing, a buzzing,

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Speaker 3: and banging within the radiators. You know, later in litigation,

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Speaker 3: as we are investigating Dan's case, or expert Douglas Carpenter,

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Speaker 3: one of the things that really stood out to Doug

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Speaker 3: was the fact that a manual boiler, so a boiler

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Speaker 3: that really required someone to keep up with it and

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Speaker 3: to manually feed the water into that boiler to make

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Speaker 3: sure that it wasn't overheating. That boiler would have had

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Speaker 3: all of these signs or symptoms if it was malfunctioning

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Speaker 3: in the days and weeks prior to the fire. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: these apartment residents were not interviewed until days and weeks

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Speaker 3: after the arson determination.

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Speaker 1: Before speaking with these folks, the Pittsburgh Arson Squad had

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Speaker 1: called in the ATF to assist with the investigation.

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Speaker 3: These are two ATF agents that investigated the Greg Brown case,

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Speaker 3: William Patritis and Jason Wick, and they're doing the same

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Speaker 3: thing right. They're making this arson determination very quickly after

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Speaker 3: the fire has been suppressed on visual inspection alone, without

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Speaker 3: the use of any other experts, without ruling out any

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Speaker 3: additional accidental causes, without all of the chemical analysis having

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Speaker 3: been even sent to the ACF laboratory without witness interviews

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Speaker 3: being completed, and they're not using the NFPA nine twenty one,

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Speaker 3: which at that point in nineteen ninety three was in

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Speaker 3: its first publication.

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Speaker 1: The NFPA nine twenty one is the National Fire Protection

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Speaker 1: Association's investigation guide that signaled a paradigm shift towards the

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Speaker 1: scientific method and away from the myths and folklore nonsense

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Speaker 1: that have been handed down by arson investigation predecessors visual

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Speaker 1: cues that were believed to indicate that a fire had

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Speaker 1: been intentionally set with accelerants. Modern science has proved that

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Speaker 1: none of that stuff is true, but it was relied on,

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Speaker 1: and sadly in some places it still relied on for

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Speaker 1: generations and generations and generations. We'll have our coverage of

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Speaker 1: arson investigation on wrongful conviction junk science linked in the

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Speaker 1: episode description as well. But anyway, these ATF agents totally

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Speaker 1: ignored this paradigm shift from myth to science and instead

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Speaker 1: search for support for that determination that they had already made,

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Speaker 1: and they interviewed some of the people who worked at

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Speaker 1: these buildings.

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Speaker 3: So the Regal Apartment building and the Columbia Apartment Building

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Speaker 3: are connected in the basement via several locked doors. In

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Speaker 3: the Regal apartment building, there was a can of laquer

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Speaker 3: thinner near kind of like the back end of the basement.

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Speaker 3: One of the maintenance men tells investigators, I can't find

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Speaker 3: that can. It may have been moved. Later, they find

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Speaker 3: a can of lacquer thinner in the maintenance room of

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Speaker 3: the Columbia Apartment building, and that starts to turn the

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Speaker 3: wheels for investigators that that must have been the can

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Speaker 3: of lacker thinner that was originally stored in the Regal

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Speaker 3: Apartment building. Although there are lots and lots of chemicals

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Speaker 3: in this maintenance room, there is a insecticide, there's gasoline,

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Speaker 3: there's a charcoal grill, there's lacquer thinner, there's no reason

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Speaker 3: to believe that like this can of lacker thinner was

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Speaker 3: intentionally moved by a perpetrator. It simply could have been

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Speaker 3: moved by one of the maintenance men, of which there

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Speaker 3: were several, or just a different can of laquer thinner.

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Speaker 3: But that piques the investigator's interests.

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Speaker 1: Then Patritis and Wick sent fifteen samples from the building

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Speaker 1: to their boy in the ATF Lab William Canard.

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Speaker 3: William Canard has a conversation with William Patritis prior to

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Speaker 3: finalizing his report, and he says that in samples three, nine, ten,

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Speaker 3: and six, there are elements that lead into believe that

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Speaker 3: there was a presence of Lacquer Center, which was used

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Speaker 3: as an accelerant to start this fire.

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Speaker 1: And now what they needed was the right suspect. At

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Speaker 1: this point, they had heard from a guy named Chris

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Speaker 1: palm Mary who found two sets of keys and blank

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Speaker 1: checks from the Columbia in front of one of the

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Speaker 1: building owners's homes, and this information was leaked to the

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Speaker 1: local media, which piqued the interest of Dan's roommates Keith

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Speaker 1: Playtech and Tammy Mancini.

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Speaker 5: The only thing that attached him to the Columbia apartment

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Speaker 5: buildings at the time was Tammy Mancini and Keith Playtech saying,

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Speaker 5: you know that they found these checks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they found checks under the mattress of the bed

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Speaker 4: I slept in, but they were old. They just happened

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Speaker 4: to have that address on them.

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Speaker 5: So when Dan was interviewed about that, you know, he

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Speaker 5: readily admitted, yes, this was my cash cow. I stole

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Speaker 5: checks from this place. So the police say, he needs

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Speaker 5: your jacket for testing. He says, take my jacket for testing.

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Speaker 5: They say, sit down for a polygraph test. He sits

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Speaker 5: down for a polygraph test.

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Speaker 4: Oh, add they lost the coat and they losched a

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Speaker 4: polygraph test.

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Speaker 1: Both items cleared Dan, but if they hadn't, surely they

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Speaker 1: would have been saved. Additionally, Dan had his alibi and

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Speaker 1: no way of having been able to get into these buildings.

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Speaker 5: Every exterior door to this building was locked. The maintenance

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Speaker 5: room where they say the fire started was locked. The

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Speaker 5: office where two blank checks and keys that are later

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Speaker 5: found on the owner of the building's doorstep after this

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Speaker 5: fire was locked. The room in the regal building where

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Speaker 5: Liz was describing, you name your accelerant, that's in this room, okay.

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Speaker 4: Locked.

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Speaker 5: The access to the regal building is an l two

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Speaker 5: by four over the door. Can't get into it. Everywhere

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Speaker 5: down of this basement locked, and everybody tells them this.

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Speaker 5: August Paluso, the owner of the building, Orlando Syrium Belly,

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Speaker 5: who is the person who actually goes in and locks

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Speaker 5: the doors that night, and Ronald t who is one

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Speaker 5: of the maintenance people at the time, all say everything's locked.

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Speaker 5: Dan has only ever taken checks from an outdoor courtyard.

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Speaker 1: So if this had been arson, the assailant either had

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Speaker 1: to have had keys or have broken in somehow. So

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Speaker 1: the when this interviews continued and one building resident, Paul Parter,

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Speaker 1: said that he had heard a party going on that night,

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Speaker 1: which corroborated a statement from a guy named Sean Maxwell.

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Speaker 5: On January eighteenth of nineteen ninety three, the day after

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Speaker 5: this fire, Sean Maxwell comes forward and says, the guy

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Speaker 5: named Larry Steele shows up to my house a few

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Speaker 5: hours after this fire. He's covered in soot, talking about

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Speaker 5: how he broke into this Columbia apartment building with some friends.

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Speaker 5: They were drinking, and he says, we burned down the

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Speaker 5: building by accident. If you tell anybody about it, I

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Speaker 5: will kill you and I will kill your grandmother. Sean

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Speaker 5: Maxwell tells police investigators, I know who did it, and

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Speaker 5: I know the name of the guy that he was with.

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Speaker 5: His name was Rob Zacharias. While this is going on,

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Speaker 5: a couple other witnesses in the neighborhood, and you have

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Speaker 5: to understand Pittsburgh to really grasp this. Bloomfield is an

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Speaker 5: old Italian town in Pittsburgh, and everybody knows everybody in

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Speaker 5: the neighborhood, and one of the things that these individual

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00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 5: residents are talking about is that there is an individual

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Speaker 5: with long sandy blondehair's shoulder length in an army field

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Speaker 5: jacket that we don't know who's watching this fire. They

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Speaker 5: actually create a composite sketch, and this individual matches one

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Speaker 5: of two people, First Rob Zacharias, who was the same

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Speaker 5: individual that Larry Steele said earlier he was with that night. Second,

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Speaker 5: a former maintenance man by the name of Glenn Spoon,

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Speaker 5: who is fired from the property a year ago, but

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Speaker 5: Paul Potter says, is spotted a day or two before

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Speaker 5: this fire, and one of the only individuals other than

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Speaker 5: the owner of the building who have keys to those

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00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,800
Speaker 5: locked rooms. He matches the description of the composite sketch.

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Speaker 1: Two more individuals were identified who also matched this description. However,

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00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 1: who even knows if this stranger had anything to do

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00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,720
Speaker 1: with the fire or if Larry Steele had ever even

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00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:11,319
Speaker 1: made this confession about him or about Rob Zacharias. Considering

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00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,240
Speaker 1: that this fire in all likelihood was a tragic accident,

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00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,880
Speaker 1: the presence of this alleged suspect with sandy blonde hair

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00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: and an army field jacket had both dubious value and

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00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: was also definitely not Dan. The description set five to

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00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 1: ten and Dan is six', four so that's not even.

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00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 1: Close and it appears that yet another witness Named Shane,

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00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:34,400
Speaker 1: evans confirmed That.

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00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,040
Speaker 5: Shane evans grew up With DAN carnivali would know him

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00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,040
Speaker 5: from one hundred yards, away would know him from one

251
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 5: hundred inches. Away Shane evans is watching the fire happen

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Speaker 5: On january, seventeenth nineteen ninety, three four, am four, fifteen

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00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,560
Speaker 5: around five, am he leaves the. Fire he finds a

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00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,160
Speaker 5: fire personnel and he says to, THEM i was walking

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00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,680
Speaker 5: by The columbia about five minutes before the fire broke.

256
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 5: OUT i heard a door close of The columbia apartment.

257
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,680
Speaker 5: BUILDING i turned around in a very well lit, area

258
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 5: could not see his. Face the person was unknown to,

259
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 5: me but had sandy long blonde hair shoulder length and

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Speaker 5: an army field. Jacket and fire personnel say go tell police.

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Speaker 1: Investigators So Shane evans did exactly. That he told three

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Speaker 1: investigators what he had.

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Speaker 4: Seen wait do you hear what he? Said thirteen years?

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Speaker 2: Later you're listening to Wrongful.

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Speaker 1: Conviction you can listen to this and all The lava

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00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,880
Speaker 1: For good podcasts one week early and ad free by

267
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 1: subscribing To lava For Good plus On Apple. Podcasts After

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Speaker 1: dan cooperated to the fullest with law, enforcement his jacket

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00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 1: tested negative for. Accelerants he passed a, polygraph which has limited,

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00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,040
Speaker 1: value but still he was released and he grew a

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Speaker 1: bit cold On.

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Speaker 4: Pittsburgh pittsburgh was bad for. Me all my friends were

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00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,960
Speaker 4: dying of. Overdoses everybody was dying Of China white And

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Speaker 4: iroin and in this and. THAT i JUST i had

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00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 4: to get. AWAY i couldn't take it any. Where the

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00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 4: police were at my parents' house every other day about something.

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Speaker 4: Stupid most of IT i knew nothing. About about a

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00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,400
Speaker 4: month or or so after, THAT i moved To. CALIFORNIA

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Speaker 4: i have a friend who lives out there In Humble.

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00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 4: COUNTY i called the police From california and told HIM

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00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,240
Speaker 4: i was. There that you, know if you need me

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Speaker 4: for any further, questioning this is Where i'm. At it

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00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 4: wasn't LIKE i was living in the mountain siding from.

284
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 4: ANYBODY i just wanted to start, over SO i.

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Speaker 1: Left the case went cold for nearly fourteen, years and

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00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,440
Speaker 1: during that Time dan had built himself a, happy comfortable.

287
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,120
Speaker 4: LIFE i had a. FAMILY i had a, WIFE i

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00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 4: had step, KIDS i had a. HOUSE i had a good.

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00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 4: JOB i was working in a lumber mill eighty eighty

290
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 4: five thousand a. YEAR i finally was doing good in my, life,

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00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,520
Speaker 4: finally and then everything went down.

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00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: Hill in early two thousand and, Six Pittsburgh police cold

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00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: case Detective Scott evans And. Jr smith inexplicably. Reopened in

294
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety Three columbia fire.

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00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 5: Investigation they do a huge press release Where Scott evans And.

296
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,680
Speaker 5: Jr smith release all of the information that we've talked

297
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 5: about so far out to the. News then they put

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00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,159
Speaker 5: a ten thousand dollars reward in the paper for anybody for,

299
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 5: information and thirteen years later on a ten thousand dollars.

300
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 5: Reward in this press, release they talked To Shane, evans who, says,

301
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,920
Speaker 5: now in this well lit, AREA i saw six foot

302
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 5: Four DAN carnivali face to face leaving That columbia apartment.

303
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Speaker 5: Building they Asked Shane evans in nineteen ninety, three did

304
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,879
Speaker 5: you know Who DAN carnivali? Was And Shane, evans of course,

305
00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 5: SAYS i grew up with him my whole. Life one

306
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,640
Speaker 5: hundred percent it was, him AND i was watching the

307
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 5: fire later and he came up to me, unsolicited unprovoked

308
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 5: and screamed out. LOUD i was at the sandwich. Shop

309
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 5: and when he testifies at, trial he says those same,

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00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,400
Speaker 5: things except he also, says and by the, Way Dan

311
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 5: carnivali was covered with. Soot, now let's remember some of

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00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 5: the things that we've talked about so. Far Dan carnivali

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00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,320
Speaker 5: had told everybody his alibi that he was at the

314
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,399
Speaker 5: sandwich shop after being at the lunar. Bar we also

315
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 5: know from the criminal investigation file That Larry, steele in

316
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 5: his confession was covered in. Soot Shane evans is receiving

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00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 5: information somewhere from someone to add those two pieces of

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00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 5: information into this. Situation when he told everybody in nineteen ninety,

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00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 5: three when the fire was still, going that he did

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00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,320
Speaker 5: not recognize the person.

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Speaker 4: All of a, sudden in two thousand and, six it was.

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00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 4: Me he saw.

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00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,600
Speaker 1: Me ten grand can be pretty. Persuasive and, meanwhile the

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00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 1: state disposed of those original statements from nineteen ninety three

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00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 1: in Which evans had said he could and identify the,

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00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,200
Speaker 1: suspect only sharing this two thousand and Six david which

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00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 1: goner the arrest.

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00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,159
Speaker 4: WERERANT i was coming home From warp one, day riding

329
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,719
Speaker 4: up to my, house AND i knew there was a

330
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 4: helicopter following, me and it was driving all the way

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00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 4: up through fifty UNTIL i got close to my, house

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00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,560
Speaker 4: and then the car pulled out beside me and the

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00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 4: lights went, on and THEN i seen The pennsylvania badges

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00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,400
Speaker 4: AND i was, like, oh what the. Hell so then

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00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 4: they started questioning me about the. FIRE i told them

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00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 4: a million TIMES i did not do, This you're making a.

337
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 4: Mistake but all they kept doing was yelling at, me,

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00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 4: well think about the people that are, Dead, well think

339
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 4: about what you're. Doing you're a resting or wrong, person

340
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 4: so you know WHAT i. Mean that's all they kept telling.

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00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 4: ME i didn't know what to tell. Them FINALLY i,

342
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 4: said let me have an. ATTORNEY i don't want to

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00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 4: talk to you'all. Anymore next thing you, Know i'm sitting

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00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:48,919
Speaker 4: in the county jail.

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00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 5: And now emerges a jail house informant by the name

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00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,919
Speaker 5: Of Sean. Burns here's What Sean burns tells everybody in

347
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 5: all of this, Time DAN carnivali explains To Sean burns

348
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 5: this individual in protective custody The Alleghany County jail is

349
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 5: THAT i didn't mean to burn down the, building but

350
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 5: what happened WAS i was at the bar and somebody

351
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 5: told me that it's possible that in the future they

352
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 5: might put video surveillance on The Columbia apartment, building and

353
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 5: so in order to get ahead of them setting up video,

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00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 5: Surveillance i'm gonna break into The columbia And i'm gonna

355
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 5: go into the, office BUT i don't find any video.

356
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 5: Surveillance it's not. There but just out of an abundance of,

357
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 5: Caution i'm gonna take this can of lacquer thinner And

358
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 5: i'm gonna douse the, office not the, maintenance from the

359
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 5: office with this whole, can and then i'm gonna light a.

360
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 5: Match i'm gonna throw it behind, me And i'm gonna

361
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 5: walk out with the can of lacquer, thinner get rid of,

362
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 5: it and hopefully that fire will contain itself in that

363
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 5: office and burn the video surveillance equipment THAT i couldn't

364
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 5: find in THAT i don't know. Exists and in the,

365
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 5: Process i'm gonna take two blank checks and instead of

366
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 5: them onto the owner and then go set them down

367
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 5: on the doorstep of the owner.

368
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: Building the allegend motive was as far fetched as it

369
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: was inconsistent with THE atfs, theory which if their theory

370
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,919
Speaker 1: is to be, believed then why Was burn's alleging That

371
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,440
Speaker 1: dan burned the, office not the maintenance rough and then

372
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: left with the lacquer thinner when the can was in

373
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: fact found in the. Building either, Way Sean burns did

374
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 1: not make this statement for.

375
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 4: Free Sean burns had gun. Charges he also had some kid,

376
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 4: charges some child rape, things and if he would have

377
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 4: went to state, prison he wouldn't have made it. Through

378
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,479
Speaker 4: so he was doing anything he could do to come

379
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 4: up with getting himself out of, jail and he got

380
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 4: out of jail four days after my.

381
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,359
Speaker 3: Trial what we later find, Out Sean burns has not

382
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,640
Speaker 3: only testified In Daniel carnivali's case during two thousand and,

383
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 3: Seven he's testified on behalf of the commonwealth as an

384
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 3: informant in two other cases just.

385
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 5: That year for the same, prosecutor for the very same.

386
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 3: Prosecutor they got the deal of a century for cerial.

387
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: Cooperation so it seems like this, Prosecutor jennifer Di, giovanni

388
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: was willing to overlook the inconsistencies In burns's statement to

389
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: try to close The columbia, firecase and With Shane evans

390
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 1: And Sean burns in her back, pocket she Offered dan

391
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: three and a half to seven. Years pretty incredible deal

392
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 1: if you think about. It if she really thought he

393
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: was guilty of a triple, MURDERER i.

394
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 4: Wasn't taking a. PLEA i wouldn't care what they were giving.

395
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 4: ME i didn't do, it And i'm not taking a.

396
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 4: PLEA i really thought that there was no way they

397
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 4: could find someone guilty that wasn't. GUILTY i JUST i

398
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 4: found out the hard. WAY i was.

399
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 1: Roam dan went to trial In august two thousand and

400
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: seven with his Attorney Frank, walker and in addition To

401
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: evans And, BURNS atf Agent William patritis testified from. Memory

402
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 1: right fourteen years removed from the investigation and testified from

403
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: memory the physical evidence had all been, destroyed making it

404
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: impossible to do a full. Reinvestigation, Meanwhile patritis was sure

405
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 1: that an alleged assailant started the blaze with lacquer dinner

406
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: in the maintenance, room backing his claims up with ancient arson.

407
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 3: Gobbledegook he says that the thing that really stood out

408
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: to him was the low burn patterns that were present

409
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 3: on like the doorway of the mechanical, room which today

410
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 3: we know low burn patterns are not indicative of an

411
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 3: unnaturally or an accelerant set. Fire we know that if

412
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: the structure reaches full room, involvement meaning, flashover that low

413
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 3: burn patterns are absolutely naturally. Occurring But patritis's, testimony you,

414
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 3: know led the jury to believe that these low burn

415
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 3: patterns were unnaturally, occurring were indicative of only a fire

416
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 3: that could have been set through the use of an.

417
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: Accelerant and this non scientific observation was then backed up

418
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: by allegedly scientific analysis FROM atf Chemist William, cannard whose

419
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: credibility was falling apart in the lead up To dan's.

420
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: Trial in two thousand and, six three fire scientists were

421
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: hired to examine his analysis of an alleged arson In,

422
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: indiana the Notorious Christine blench, case in which he said

423
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: there was presence of an accelerant in her son's bedroom

424
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: when in fact there was, none.

425
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 3: And William canard is really exposed as having falsified. Report

426
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: we know that In august two thousand and, seven THE

427
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: atf is asked to Reevaluate William cannard's original chemical analysis

428
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: In dan's nineteen ninety three. Case Chief Julia dolan real

429
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: evaluates all of the gascarmatographs and she says that the

430
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 3: levels of lackarthinner are so low as to be. Meaningless

431
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: she disagrees with every single. Finding canard has reported that

432
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 3: report That Julia dolan does is not shared with defense.

433
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 5: Counsel but The Julia dolan memo is Dated august of

434
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 5: two thousand and, seven And dan was Tried august twenty.

435
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 5: Sixth In august twenty seventh of two thousand and, seven

436
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 5: so somebody. Knew somebody had the. Information But Jennifer digivanni

437
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 5: Gets Frank walker croml defense attorney to just, Stipulate, hey

438
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 5: you don't want to go get an. Expert let's just

439
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 5: accept THE atf just, stipulate don't get an.

440
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 4: Expert this is.

441
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 3: Legit and Then petritis just reads In William connard's original

442
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 3: chemical analysis telling the jury that lacquer thinner has been

443
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: found in all of these, samples.

444
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 5: And so that evidence was always just assumed to be

445
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 5: one hundred percent.

446
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: True and then with all of the information that was

447
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: withheld from defense, counsel any of the alternative, perpetrators the

448
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: steel alleged, confession And Julia DOLAN atf report saying that

449
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: the lack Of thurner conclusion was.

450
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: Meaningless dan was convicted of, arson, burglary aggravated, assault and

451
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: three counts of second degree. Murder so instead of three

452
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: and a half, years he got three consecutive life.

453
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 4: Sentences my trial lasted one, day by the, WAY i,

454
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: MEAN i had a triple. HOMICIDE i picked the jury one,

455
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: day which found guilty the NEXT i was just. SHOCKED

456
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 4: i was in shocked for probably the first. Year my

457
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 4: personality got me through. PRISON i could be a comedian

458
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 4: BECAUSE i had to make it to WHERE i wasn't

459
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: going to get in trouble in jail or have enemies

460
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 4: or or. WHATEVER i just did the BEST i. COULD

461
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 4: i was in a supermax. Prison you, KNOW i had

462
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 4: three life. Sentences it's bugging me right. NOW i can't

463
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: get it out of my fucking they just hearing all

464
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 4: the stuff that they did to me over and. Over

465
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 4: it's you know, why they had enough stuff to prove me,

466
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 4: innocent but they lost it all a little, strange ain't?

467
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: It, like let's just. Recap they alleged to have lost

468
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: the jacket That dan turned over for testing as to

469
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 3: whether he had any kind of like trace of accelerants

470
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: on his. Jacket they do not have the polygraph That dan,

471
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 3: took which you, know indicated that he was not being.

472
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: Deceptive at, trial they testified that they lost any indication

473
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 3: That Shane evans had come forward on the night of

474
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: the fire and made original police.

475
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: Statements yet the original statements turned up years, later and

476
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: With Shane, evans who Knew DAN carnivali could not identify

477
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: the man he. Saw, Rather evans had described someone who

478
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: did not Match dan's. Profile but before those statements were,

479
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: Discovered dan's earlier appeals focused on the Information dan had

480
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: received About Sean.

481
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 4: Burns this guy sent me a message to my self

482
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 4: saying that he wanted to talk to me out in

483
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 4: the yard about something really. Important i'm starting to stress

484
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 4: out what the hell's wrong? Now SO i go out

485
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 4: in the yard and he tells, me, hey did you

486
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: ever hear Of David? DIXON i said. No then he, goes,

487
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 4: well do you Know jennifer Di. GIOVANNI i said, yes

488
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 4: Why and then he started explaining that she put him in,

489
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: jail and they Had Sean burns as also as The

490
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 4: Jae how's, informant blah blah, blah and he ended up

491
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 4: getting twenty years and he just wanted to let me

492
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: know that it happened to him.

493
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: To David, dixon who had spent time With Sean, burns

494
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: swore an affidavit That burns had admitted Fabricating dan's alleged,

495
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: confession which became part of a post conviction relief. Motion

496
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: along with the sweetheart. Deal burns had received fourteen months

497
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: and immediate parole. Eligibility he was released four days After dan's. Trout,

498
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: however Both dan's post conviction motion and his habeas were

499
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: denied by twenty, sixteen by which point The Pennsylvania Innocence

500
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: project had Reviewed dan's case And liz paid him a.

501
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: Visit Once liz came to see me for the first,

502
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 4: time everything. CHANGED i knew that something was going to

503
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 4: happen BECAUSE i was. INNOCENT i don't even know what

504
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 4: the satal is, anymore because she's just like the best

505
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 4: thing that ever happened to. Me i'm, SORRY i love you, too.

506
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: And our first step was to retain our, Expert Douglas,

507
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: carpenter and he did that review pro, bono even though

508
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 3: we were missing quite a bit of. Documentation he really

509
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: laid out for the court the evolution of THE nfpa

510
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,959
Speaker 3: nine twenty one of how fire signs and fire, investigation

511
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: what would have been done in twenty seventeen that just

512
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: was not done In night eighteen ninety, three was not

513
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: even conceptualized in nineteen ninety, three and alleged that this

514
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 3: fire should not have been determined an arson or intentionally

515
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 3: set that at the very, least it should have been.

516
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 3: Undetermined and his theory was that it was an accidental

517
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: fire and that the boiler, overheated causing superheating within the,

518
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: joists and he you, know talked very much about like

519
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: the steam pipes and how they ran throughout the, building

520
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: how they ran straight up into that northwest corner that,

521
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: collapsed the ways in which witness statements afterwards really supported

522
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: the fact that this could have been an accidental boiler.

523
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: Overheating but the state argued that this was just a

524
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: battle of experts and their petition was. Denied, However liz's

525
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: work On Greg brown's case Another canard, victim by the,

526
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: way appears to have been the catalyst that brought The

527
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: Julia dolan report In dan's case to light in twenty.

528
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: NINETEEN i can't say exactly what happened, here but IF

529
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 3: i had to, assume that ASSISTANT us attorney In Greg

530
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: brown's case requested all of THE atf files arson files

531
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 3: that were conducted In Alleghany county through a specific time,

532
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: period so nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety. Five right one

533
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 3: of those case files Was Dan carnivali's and within THAT

534
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 3: atf case file was That Julia dolan report saying that

535
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: The lacquer thinner results that were originally reported In canards

536
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety three report were. Meaningless that was then turned

537
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 3: over to THE pcra attorney that was working On Dan carnivali's.

538
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 3: Case and thank goodness for the ethics of THAT pcra,

539
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 3: prosecutor because they turned it over TO us as they

540
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: have a constitutional duty to. Do and because of that,

541
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 3: report The Alleghany County District attorney's office agreed That dan

542
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: deserved a new.

543
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: Trial while THE da was deciding whether to even bother

544
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: with a new, Trial liz reached out To Julia.

545
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: DOLAN i was able to Interview Julia dolan and ask,

546
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 3: why in two thousand and, seven very, coincidentally in the

547
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 3: same month As dan's, trial did you Reevaluate cannard's? Report

548
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,959
Speaker 3: and the only RESPONSE i was able to achieve WAS

549
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: i cannot. Recall AND i was, like was it a

550
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 3: specific request From Alleghany county to reevaluate this analysis or

551
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: were you doing a more systemic review of like analysis

552
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: from this time from this particular chemist because he had

553
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: been discredited in The bunch, case and she, SAYS i

554
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 3: have never done a systemic review of one of my.

555
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: Colleagues in addition to This brady violation that should have

556
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: Prevented dan's two thousand and seven trial from ever happening at,

557
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: All liz was now able to locate even more evidence.

558
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: In The District attorney's response to OUR pcra. Petition one

559
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: of the attachments was a document from the insurance agency

560
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: that represented the owner of The columbia, building and it

561
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 3: gave me the actual, name which Was Northwestern National. Insurance many,

562
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: times especially in These arson, cases the insurance company will

563
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 3: do a much more in depth investigation in order to

564
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: determine whether they should pay the claim than sometimes The

565
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: arson squad. Will WHEN i tried to locate how Many

566
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: Northwestern national insurance companies there, were there was like over two.

567
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: Hundred SO i just made a list and started down this.

568
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: LIST i THINK i got to probably seventy, five maybe

569
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 3: one hundred calls when FINALLY i spoke with this woman

570
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: AND i gave her the insurance claim, number and she, said,

571
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: yes that reflects a claim. Number that would have been

572
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 3: a claim number that we used at the. Time but

573
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 3: they were in the process of destroying all of these old,

574
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 3: documents AND i was, like stop where you. Are if

575
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: you have these old, DOCUMENTS i need, Them and so

576
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 3: immediately sent her a subpoena and she located six thousand

577
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 3: pages of insurance documents and within that box were those

578
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 3: original police reports From Shane evans that the cold case

579
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 3: detectives said were, lost and there were three police. Reports

580
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: he did in fact speak with three police officers on that,

581
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: night but despite his trial testimony saying it was, LIGHT

582
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 3: i immediately recognized it As DANIEL carnivali his police report

583
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: said unknown white male did not see face all. Three

584
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 3: and so WHEN i presented this a district attorney's office

585
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 3: finally said we're going to nol. Prost we're going to

586
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: pititition the court to withdraw all, charges And dan was

587
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: finally released and.

588
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 4: EXONERATED i got Released march, eighteenth the first day OF

589
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 4: covid that nobody was.

590
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: Allowed out of the house the very first day of

591
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: like everybody was being kind of like sent home from your.

592
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: WORK i went out ANYWAY i used. TO i was

593
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 4: walking all Over. PITTSBURGH i was taking money and giving

594
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 4: fight older, bills the homeless people Down Tom. Pittsburgh SO

595
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 4: i haven't been In pittsburgh for twenty, six twenty seven.

596
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 4: Years So i'm back In. Pittsburgh i'm living with my,

597
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 4: brother and he's taking good care of. Me like he

598
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 4: bought me a. Motorcycle he let me use his, Car

599
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 4: he helped me get my driver's. LICENSE Kk radio, station

600
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: helped me get the. JOB i, mean there was a lot.

601
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 4: INVOLVED i just, oh AND i had a house something

602
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 4: In pittsburgh that my parents had and they had squatters

603
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 4: and stuff living in. It SO i just went there

604
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 4: and cleaned it and we sold. That and it was

605
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 4: pretty crazy WHEN i got, out but life got so.

606
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: Good THEN i met my, Wife, donna who's sitting next

607
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 4: to me right everything. Changed we're on our second home

608
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 4: SINCE i got. Out you, know JUST i work ten

609
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 4: hours a, day six days a week sometimes and Just

610
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 4: i'm loving.

611
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: LIFE i will say that WHEN i first Met, dan

612
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: just the, sweetest most sincere. Man and you, Know dan's,

613
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 3: Case greg's, case every case THAT i work on is

614
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 3: the best thing THAT i could possibly do with my jurse.

615
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 3: Doctorate but like knowing THAT i never have to have

616
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: a conversation With dan in those orange uniforms in that

617
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 3: mint green, room that's. Enough that's enough THAT i have

618
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 3: done with my. CAREER i could stop.

619
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 5: Today dan is the most incredible person That i've ever.

620
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 5: Met HE i have a four year old, boy my oldest.

621
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 5: Boy dan is a very successful. Baker he loves the

622
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 5: bacon he bakes for one of the probably the most

623
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 5: famous bakery in all of The Pittsburgh.

624
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 4: Areia third best in the, country third best in the.

625
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 5: Country on his own, Dime dan surprised my four year

626
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 5: old's junior pre kindergarten class With halloween cookies that he

627
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 5: made for. Them and then On thanksgiving and we you know,

628
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 5: talk if not every day every other, day Said, alec

629
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 5: you gotta try my homemade pumpkin.

630
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 4: PIE i do.

631
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 5: It i'm gonna get, There, Dan i'm gonna get. There

632
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 5: AND i, SAID i love pumpkin pie and he said it's,

633
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 5: cheesecake BUT i do a special sauce on. Top and

634
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 5: so my, family my two, boys my, wife we all

635
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 5: Met dan and he gave us this homemade pumpkin. Pie

636
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 5: and then we Called dan AND i, Said, dan let's

637
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 5: go To Eaton, park sort of this well Owned pitsburg.

638
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 5: Dive and we get there And dan's talking about the Super,

639
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 5: burgers raveing about a Super.

640
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: Burger you're so obsessed With bidnax And superburger obsessed with.

641
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 5: It And i'm, Like, dan fuck the Super. Burger i'm

642
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 5: getting turkey. Dinner And dan looks at the waitress and

643
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 5: he goes give me the exact same. Thing and then

644
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 5: this woman walked over. Unsolicited dan had A steelers tattoo

645
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 5: on the side of his head and, said, SIR i

646
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 5: love your. Tattoo And dan made a joke to. Her

647
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 5: she lit. Up he he is a guy that just

648
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 5: makes everything. Better you make everything.

649
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: Better, Okay so just in CASE i find myself In

650
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: pittsburgh anytime, soon what's the name of this Bakery.

651
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 4: Oakmont bakery number one In pittsburgh for.

652
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: Sure well shout out To Oakmont. Bakery we're gonna have

653
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: them linked in the episode description as. Well but, meanwhile

654
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: we wish you all the best in the civil. Suit

655
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: as we go now to closing, arguments where first of,

656
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: ALL i thank you guys so much for sharing this.

657
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: Story and Then i'm just gonna take these next few

658
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: minutes to sit back in my chair and listen to

659
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: anything else you feel is left to be. Said so

660
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: let's start With, alec Then, liz and of course Finally.

661
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 5: Dan there's nothing really for me to add except to.

662
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 5: Reiterate you, Know, dan you know we all love. You

663
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 5: this is about. You others are, hurt but you know

664
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 5: we're in your fight and you really do make life.

665
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 5: Better you made my life, Better you made my family's life.

666
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 4: Better thank. You i'll bring you some work.

667
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 5: Cook, well those compliments will only continue as long as

668
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 5: you feed.

669
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 4: Me, Right, Okay, liz what do you guys to?

670
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: Say by?

671
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: Takeaway AND i expressed this To alec quite a, bit

672
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: IS i just don't understand Why dan was, targeted and

673
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 3: not even in nineteen ninety, three, right it was years,

674
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: later in two thousand and, six it feels like more

675
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 3: of an effort to Target dan as opposed to actually

676
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 3: following the tangible leads that they. Had AND i feel,

677
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: like you, know when you, lie when you cover, up

678
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: you not only have to remember the lies and the

679
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 3: cover up that you, did but the lies and the

680
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: cover up that you asked others to, do which seems

681
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: much much more difficult than just conducting a really straightforward

682
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 3: and logical. Investigation and SO i just WILL i will

683
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 3: never understand this. CASE i will never understand Why dan was,

684
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: targeted especially because he was out of. State you, know

685
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: he wasn't in our, state he wasn't in our, community

686
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: he wasn't causing a, problem he wasn't making. Enemies and

687
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 3: SO i hope, Someday, dan you have an answer to.

688
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: THAT i would like to have some, answers and to

689
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: have those particular people who cost you thirteen fourteen years

690
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 3: of your life and all of the trauma that you

691
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 3: experienced while you were in prison answer for.

692
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 4: That. YEAH i don't even know what to. SAY i

693
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 4: just thank god things had happened the way they did

694
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 4: at the, end you, Know i'm just happy to be

695
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 4: living my life not inside that hole. ANYMORE i can't understand.

696
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 4: IT i will never understand.

697
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 5: It so.

698
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 4: That's about ALL i got to. Say thank you for

699
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 4: having me on this, Show, liz thank you for being here.

700
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 4: Analog you, KNOW i don't know what else. IS i

701
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 4: thought i'd ever eat a big bac. AGAIN i think

702
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 4: that's WHY i like big.

703
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 5: Macs you, Know i'll lead a big back with.

704
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: You.

705
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 4: Dan all, right, well, yeah we could just do super.

706
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 5: Burgers, no let's we'll get distracted by a turkey. Dinner

707
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 5: let's go get a Big.

708
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 4: Mac they got double. Ones, Oh.

709
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 6: Chris thank you for listening To Wrongful.

710
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: Conviction you can listen to.

711
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,959
Speaker 1: This and all The lava For good podcasts one week

712
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: early by subscribing To lava For Good plus On Apple.

713
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: PODCASTS i want to thank our production, Team Connor hall

714
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: And Kathleen, fink as well as my fellow executive Producers Jeff,

715
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: Kempler Kevin.

716
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: Wartis And Jeff.

717
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: Cliburn the music in this production was supplied by three

718
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow

719
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 1: us across all social media platforms At lava For good

720
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: and At Wrongful. Conviction you can also follow me On

721
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: instagram at It's Jason. Flamm Wrongful conviction is a production

722
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: Of lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company

723
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: number One The Wind That Work imm