1
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,680
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Stage podcast.

2
00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:18,640
Speaker 1: My guest today he's musician, songwriter producer Jeff Baskar. Jeff

3
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: has worked with Kanye West, Bruno Mars, Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift,

4
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 1: the Rolling Stone. Even hear him on Uptown Funk with

5
00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: Mark Ronson. Jeff, So good to have you, honor to

6
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 1: be here, Bob. So, what's up. You moved to Big Sir. Well,

7
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: I'm in the process of setting up a studio there

8
00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:45,600
Speaker 1: and having a kind of sanctuary, if you will, outside

9
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles kind of recently after the pandemic, started

10
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: doing more traveling again and realizing how much I missed that,

11
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,400
Speaker 1: how much I loved being in different places and being

12
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: in different and vironments. And you know, and you mentioned

13
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,319
Speaker 1: Kanye like we you used to do these excursions in

14
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 1: Hawaii or Wyoming and these really beautiful, uh stunning places

15
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,200
Speaker 1: of nature, venues of nature. So I came across this

16
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,800
Speaker 1: property in Big Sir and jumped on it because it

17
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,240
Speaker 1: just checked so many boxes for me. Um. Yeah, and

18
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm looking I'm looking forward to to sharing not only

19
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 1: musical experiences but also kind of in the tradition of

20
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 1: Big sir, all kinds of human potential, meditation, health, wellness experiences.

21
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: So there's my plug from my my new studio. Come

22
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,440
Speaker 1: come work with me. Okay, you have a studio, but

23
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 1: it's a studio part of your house or part of

24
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: your properties. Yeah, it's actually a really amazing compound that

25
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:56,280
Speaker 1: the studio was built by the former owner, uh, in

26
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: collaboration with an architect. Hey, Mickey Munich was known for

27
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,320
Speaker 1: uh designing all the structures on the post ranch in

28
00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: and all throughout Big Sir. He's kind of this like

29
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 1: organic modernist and uh, it's an amazing facility that yeah,

30
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,600
Speaker 1: just it just kind of was kind of too good

31
00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,440
Speaker 1: to be true. And it's in an interesting, such a

32
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,840
Speaker 1: beautiful setting. So yeah, it's it's gonna be. It's a

33
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,640
Speaker 1: compound of all those kind of things. Okay, you know

34
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,679
Speaker 1: the road constantly gets closed, etcetera. Why Big sur is

35
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 1: opposed to anywhere else and you think people will come? Um,

36
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,480
Speaker 1: I mean, good question. You know It's funny when I

37
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,959
Speaker 1: when I first came across this place, UM, I asked

38
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 1: myself the same question. UM, and I think maybe maybe

39
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:49,320
Speaker 1: part of the answer is that, um, those who want

40
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 1: to be there will come. And that's kind of been

41
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,079
Speaker 1: part of my producer practice, or at least something I've

42
00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 1: learned over the years is I do my best work

43
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,359
Speaker 1: when the when, and it's uh, it's kind of meant

44
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,520
Speaker 1: to be, you know, like people are coming to get

45
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,640
Speaker 1: from me what they want from me and I and

46
00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 1: I give that so we'll see, you know. Otherwise I'll

47
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 1: just be up there drinking my well water and looking

48
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: at the at the incredible view and uh, I hope

49
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: you'll come up. That's how this came about, right, I

50
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 1: sent you the emails had come to Big sir. I

51
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: just got inspired. I haven't been to Big Surf for

52
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,040
Speaker 1: a while, so, uh, you know, it's really a great

53
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: place right over there over the ocean. Remember driving up

54
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,640
Speaker 1: Highway One really fucked up out of my mind. I'm stunned.

55
00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm still here arguing with my girlfriend at the same

56
00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,680
Speaker 1: time in the car. But forgetting that. You also email

57
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,600
Speaker 1: me about new music. What is the state of new

58
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 1: music today where you do most of your work? Right? Well, yeah,

59
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean I'm not gonna say I have my some

60
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:56,280
Speaker 1: like exclusive on that topic, but I mean I will

61
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,640
Speaker 1: tell you kind of on the same vein of like

62
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,000
Speaker 1: the post pandemic. You know, like I became a father

63
00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: about six years ago, and at that time, uh, I

64
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: kind of took a break. I've been working hard. I've

65
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 1: done a lot of music, done a lot of records,

66
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: really fulfilled a lot of dreams of mine that were

67
00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 1: way beyond what I ever thought I would accomplish. And

68
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, it took the time out to kind of

69
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,720
Speaker 1: settle into parenthood adulthood. And after a year or two,

70
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 1: I came back in and low and behold, like music

71
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,720
Speaker 1: really changed a lot. You know, Streaming started to take hold,

72
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,440
Speaker 1: social media started to take hold. There's all these new artists,

73
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,440
Speaker 1: Like the turnover kind of happened, and I I was

74
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 1: starting to feel quite old and left out and and

75
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,160
Speaker 1: not connected to the quote unquote culture. And you know,

76
00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,440
Speaker 1: like this young Thug record that I did with Nate

77
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,279
Speaker 1: and we performed on Saturday Night Live Going, you know,

78
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,600
Speaker 1: they invited We had been talking all pandemic about doing

79
00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: something together and then finally there was an opportunity where

80
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,560
Speaker 1: they invited us to come to Atlanta, Nate and I

81
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:06,719
Speaker 1: and being in the room with Thug, Gonna Metro Booming,

82
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,840
Speaker 1: Charlie Handsome, all these kind of like young lions or

83
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 1: not so young lions anymore, because they're also kind of

84
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,920
Speaker 1: approaching thirty right like, and they're becoming adults. They're kind

85
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:26,880
Speaker 1: of coming into a more complete holistic all such talented,

86
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 1: brilliant guys. It really reminded me of like, you know,

87
00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,120
Speaker 1: I got my start in jazz and that was what

88
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,040
Speaker 1: really turned me onto music. It reminded me of that

89
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: feeling and that culture and and and and Black culture

90
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 1: being immersed in that. That's really where my heart is.

91
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 1: Um So to your question, you know, the state of

92
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: it after kind of kind of being feeling quite disconnected

93
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: from you, come on, father, You're not up in the

94
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,280
Speaker 1: club anymore. You're not out in the streets, so to speak,

95
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,000
Speaker 1: to connect with those guys and also feel like their

96
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,160
Speaker 1: admiration and respect for me and what how I had

97
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,040
Speaker 1: influenced them through my work with Kanye and beyond, you know,

98
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,160
Speaker 1: like We Are Young. It's kind of like an amazingly

99
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,320
Speaker 1: embraced record in uh, you know, Travis Scott posted this

100
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,160
Speaker 1: this very viral video of him rocking out till We

101
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: Are Young in the club and and that was specifically

102
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,840
Speaker 1: like engineered when we made that record, I was like,

103
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: I specifically, we need black people to funk with this

104
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,880
Speaker 1: album in this band, and you know that kind of

105
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 1: gulf between white indie music, indie rock, and black music,

106
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 1: you know. So that was like a really exciting moment

107
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: for me and then to kind of reconnect with those

108
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,160
Speaker 1: guys and feel the energy and the creativity. And in

109
00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,760
Speaker 1: Atlanta also, which I had where had not spent a

110
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,000
Speaker 1: lot of time. Um, to get back to the question

111
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 1: what is the state of new music? You know, I

112
00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly vibrant and um, I think you could

113
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: compare it to the advent of rock and roll, pre beatles,

114
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, the way black musicians were creating a genre

115
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: that was mysterious, kind of opaque to the outside ear,

116
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: but exciting, dangerous and cool above all else. Right, Because

117
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, if you can boil

118
00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: anything down to its essence that matters. It's coolness, right,

119
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:36,000
Speaker 1: And that's what music. That's why Apple Tech, anyone, actors, uh,

120
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 1: finance bros. They all want to be in music, because

121
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 1: why because it's cool? Right. So I think there's like

122
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 1: a I was so pleasantly, um kind of moved, to

123
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 1: be honest, It was just such a wonderful experience to

124
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:56,120
Speaker 1: feel the potency expertise. Mike Will made it as another guy.

125
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,920
Speaker 1: It's I've known for a long time that we kind

126
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 1: of connected more and more recently, and just to see

127
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,680
Speaker 1: how formidable these guys are musically, I think the state

128
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 1: of new music is in awesome hands. Not to mention,

129
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, um, the empowerment that all these tools like

130
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,320
Speaker 1: YouTube and being able to publish your own music, to

131
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 1: create your own music, you know. I think there's a

132
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,440
Speaker 1: lot of on the other side talk about how it's

133
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: kind of made music horrible, um, and it makes it

134
00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,720
Speaker 1: too easy, which are there are some valid points to that,

135
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,720
Speaker 1: but I think the counterpoint to that is it's also

136
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,440
Speaker 1: been incredibly empowering. That's how I started producing because I

137
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 1: was in jazz. I wanted to be a jazz arranger

138
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,560
Speaker 1: and a composer, and I had to write out these

139
00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: goddamn big band charts and my wrist is about to

140
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,560
Speaker 1: break with my calligraphy pen, and I started using the

141
00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 1: computer to print out the sheet music and then it

142
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,480
Speaker 1: would play the music back to me. Also, um, and

143
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,719
Speaker 1: that was an empowering moment to be able to not

144
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,320
Speaker 1: have to write all these charts out get a band together,

145
00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: have them butcher it and actually hear my music. So

146
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:09,240
Speaker 1: short answer, it's incredibly vibrant. And I think also at

147
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 1: a tipping point where we're about to see and hear

148
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,000
Speaker 1: what's next. There hasn't been on next in a while, right,

149
00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 1: so I think they're also the youth is a is

150
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,200
Speaker 1: really getting tired of the robot music and the computer music,

151
00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: and they want to hear some really vibrant musical organic

152
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,959
Speaker 1: uh substance, and where I think we're about to feel

153
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 1: that what is the Jeff Baskers special sauce? What are

154
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,559
Speaker 1: people looking for when they want to work with you?

155
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll flip it on its head and maybe

156
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,920
Speaker 1: this is what they're looking for. Is I want to

157
00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,679
Speaker 1: know what they're looking for and I can. I mean,

158
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:50,920
Speaker 1: as a producer, you know, I have a few different

159
00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,840
Speaker 1: mode modes. You know. Sometimes I'm a creator. You know

160
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the music I did with Kanye or

161
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,640
Speaker 1: Rihanna or Beyonce or Alicia Keys, I created all that music.

162
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,679
Speaker 1: I wrote it from scratch. I played all the instruments,

163
00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:11,000
Speaker 1: I wrote the lyrics, I sang the demo, and I

164
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:18,440
Speaker 1: have a very strong creative identity and potency. But as

165
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 1: a producer. My ultimate scenario is when someone comes to

166
00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:28,280
Speaker 1: me and knows exactly what they want to do. UM,

167
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 1: and it's not about my sauce, but it's, uh, maybe

168
00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:32,920
Speaker 1: it is my sauce, you know. I mean, I'll give

169
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 1: you one example, like with Some Nights, which is about

170
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 1: to turn ten years old. I think um or may

171
00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,120
Speaker 1: have recently, you know, and and the the incredible Nate

172
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 1: Rus you know, who kind of sought me out when

173
00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,320
Speaker 1: he wanted to add a bit more of an urban

174
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:56,200
Speaker 1: MPC driven texture to his music UM and started listening

175
00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 1: to a lot of urban music quote unquote urban mus

176
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: uzic and just my name started popping up on the

177
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,840
Speaker 1: credits a lot, and so he sought me out. And

178
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: you know, I you know, it's been documented in many

179
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 1: interviews how I turned him down multiple times until he

180
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 1: kind of just by force of will collaborate with me

181
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,640
Speaker 1: and saying me, we are young in my hotel room,

182
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,040
Speaker 1: and I booked a studio the next day and I

183
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,720
Speaker 1: was like, we're recording this. That just made my life

184
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: so easy. UM. And in that case, I think it's

185
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,520
Speaker 1: you know, a real maybe maybe I'm gonna guess I

186
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,920
Speaker 1: haven't really contemplated this before, but I can say for

187
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 1: sure that you know, when I make a record, I

188
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,439
Speaker 1: have a very specific goal. I want to reach into

189
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: your chest and rip your heart out, you know. I

190
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,240
Speaker 1: want to make music that moves people emotionally as a

191
00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 1: life changing moment. I want my music to be on

192
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,280
Speaker 1: the level of you lost that love and feeling or

193
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 1: um you know, uh nothing compares to you. You know,

194
00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:02,240
Speaker 1: so I have a very strong emotional uh component to

195
00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 1: my music that perhaps that's what people uh resonate with.

196
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 1: You know, our people are you having? Do you have

197
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,600
Speaker 1: enough of the name that it's always people seeking out

198
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,839
Speaker 1: you or do you ever say, hey, I want to

199
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,040
Speaker 1: work with that person and you reach out, you know,

200
00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 1: and not not because I don't want to, but I

201
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 1: have you know, I got kind of I hit a

202
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,080
Speaker 1: magic moment from working with Kanye, right, Like that was

203
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 1: the moment when and it's still true to some extent,

204
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,920
Speaker 1: like he's got the mightas touched Like if you get

205
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,880
Speaker 1: the Kanye stamp of approval, love him or hate him

206
00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,560
Speaker 1: or whatever controversies surrounding him at the moment, it's pretty undeniable.

207
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,559
Speaker 1: He's a genius and an incredible curator of talent. So

208
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 1: I was very fortunate to kind of springboard from working

209
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,280
Speaker 1: with him two and being able to work with and

210
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,760
Speaker 1: having worked with every all of the most amazing talented

211
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: people to then leaving his camp and going right into

212
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 1: Some Nights with Nate, which was like a huge album

213
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,319
Speaker 1: at the time, right it was. They were like nominated

214
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,280
Speaker 1: Best they won Grammy Best New Artist and we won

215
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,960
Speaker 1: Best Song and it was like a big moment. So

216
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 1: after that that led to like the Rolling Stones, Taylor Swift,

217
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 1: uh you know. Um Bruno I had known since he

218
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: was seventeen years old, had moved to l A and

219
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 1: that's when I got my first placement on the game's

220
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 1: first album, and Mike Lynn, who used to be Dr

221
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 1: Dre's and R, said hey, I just signed this kid

222
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 1: from Hawaii. Should work with him. And then I went

223
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,839
Speaker 1: and did my Kanye thing and then he became Bruno Mars.

224
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,360
Speaker 1: But then that's how I met Mark Ronson because he

225
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: said for my second album, I want you and Mark

226
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,439
Speaker 1: to produce it, and then that became an you know,

227
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm the huge fan of Marks and um Um. It

228
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,840
Speaker 1: was just kind of a flow of being kind of

229
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 1: lead to these opportunities and now much more recently, I'm

230
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:13,319
Speaker 1: kind of seeking out talent and and not even really actively,

231
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 1: but you know, I really do kind of try to

232
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 1: like stay within myself and then see what opportunities come

233
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: my way. And a lot of opportunities do come my

234
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,000
Speaker 1: way where I think it's a little bit of the

235
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 1: name recognition or my past achievements that people want me

236
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 1: to work with them or a and our guys or

237
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 1: label heads want me to work with someone, but it's

238
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 1: maybe not exactly for the right reasons. Then I'll get

239
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 1: in the room and they'll be, well, can you make

240
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,040
Speaker 1: it sound a little more like this? And I'm like, actually, no,

241
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,880
Speaker 1: I can't. Like I'm me. You know that took me

242
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 1: a while to kind of realize that, because I do

243
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 1: also stretch myself and want to I'm so curious about

244
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: all kinds of genres and I want to explore them

245
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 1: and I want to I love learning and I love

246
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 1: appreciating all kinds of different music. But you know, to

247
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 1: be honest, it's usually kind of just to letting the

248
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 1: universe guide what comes my way and trying to say

249
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,760
Speaker 1: this is the right project for me right now. You

250
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: mentioned working with Beyonce and Kanye, were you essentially at

251
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: a completed song today's song credits? Canna have fifteen writers

252
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: on a song, Let's be specific. You know you're telling

253
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: me you write these songs, but if you look at

254
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 1: the credits or all these other things, So what is

255
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: it that you do and what is it that they do? Well?

256
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it can it can be different scenarios can

257
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,000
Speaker 1: be different things, right. I'm kind of at the beginning

258
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,120
Speaker 1: when I wasn't anybody nobody knew my name or wanted

259
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: to place my music. I was sitting at home making

260
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: these songs. That was kind of how it started. And

261
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,920
Speaker 1: then you get into like, hey, say like Uptown Funk right,

262
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 1: Like there's a good example kind of in the middle

263
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,960
Speaker 1: where the credits are gonna say Mark Ronson, Bruno Mars,

264
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: Philip Lawrence, Jeff Basker, um and uh and then the

265
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: Gap band after the lawsuit. But um, you know, that's

266
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 1: an amazing thing in music too, is that you can

267
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 1: collaborate and have a I think sometimes in in l

268
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 1: A there's like the the publishing uh session shuffle right

269
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 1: where everyone gets in a room and there's a hundred

270
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: rooms in l A where everyone's right in the same song, right, um,

271
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,640
Speaker 1: But then there's like you find your collaborator, right, like

272
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 1: you've Paul McCartney and John Lennon, right make Jagger and

273
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,440
Speaker 1: Keith Richards. You find that foil that the dark and

274
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 1: the light, the push and the pull that kind of

275
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 1: bring the best out of each other. And in some

276
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: cases that might be three or four or five people, right.

277
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 1: Or in hip hop, it used to be like the

278
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 1: producer made the beat and the rapper wrapped on it.

279
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: They're writing the song, they're creating this song. Then it

280
00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,280
Speaker 1: kind of turned into like okay, like may you've got

281
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: a keyboard player came in and played some things, and

282
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 1: it's it starts becoming very not democratic, but like it's

283
00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,320
Speaker 1: a kind of an equality where whoever contributed what deserves

284
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,120
Speaker 1: some writing credit. I think like the the structure and

285
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,679
Speaker 1: the the litigious nature of publishing and how it was

286
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: created used to be very used to be like the

287
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 1: melody and the lyrics, right, So there was kind of

288
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,479
Speaker 1: definitions that have warped and changed over time. So in

289
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: some cases I write the whole song. In some cases

290
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 1: someone might have all complete song written and I might say,

291
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: you know what you need, like a melodic cook here

292
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,640
Speaker 1: and then I write this melodic cook and I get

293
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 1: my little five percent or something. But every situation is different,

294
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 1: and you know, when you talk to painters or people

295
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 1: in different artistic disciplines, being able to collaborate like that

296
00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,399
Speaker 1: is not It just doesn't exist. And and collaboration is

297
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,400
Speaker 1: one of the beautiful things about music. So a lot

298
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 1: of times I think maybe in cases where people are like,

299
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,879
Speaker 1: oh my god, today's music is just written by by committee,

300
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: by twenty people, it's like, that's also called collaboration, you know,

301
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 1: in collaboration is a beautiful thing, having a conversation, talking,

302
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,400
Speaker 1: bouncing ideas off of each other, someone being there when

303
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 1: you're alone and you're saying, oh, that's a stupid idea.

304
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that, and someone's like, no, no, no, no,

305
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 1: that's a great line. That's great. You need that. And

306
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 1: you get elevated, uh content and creative fruit out of

307
00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,359
Speaker 1: situations like that. Right, So that's kind of kind of

308
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 1: one take on that question. So you're born in Kansas City, Kansas,

309
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 1: and for those of us have been to Kansas, really

310
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 1: the Kansas City we think of his Missouri, not Kansas City, Kansas.

311
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 1: And you grow up in New Mexico. Give me the

312
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,280
Speaker 1: backs story and all that. Yeah, well, I mean take

313
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 1: it even back before that. You know, my dad's a

314
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: from from India, from northern from fron job Lahore as

315
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,199
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, where which is now Pakistan. And

316
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 1: our family had to flee Pakistan during the partition because

317
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,199
Speaker 1: we're Hindu. And then my grandfather moved to the United

318
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,359
Speaker 1: States to study psychiatry at the Manager Institute in I

319
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,720
Speaker 1: believe it's in Topeka, Kansas. So my dad came to

320
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 1: the United States as like an eight year old brown

321
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 1: Indian kid dropped in the fifties in the Midwest in Kansas.

322
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 1: He ended up going both my parents went to KU

323
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 1: University and my dad graduated from KU Medical School, which

324
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: is in Kansas City, Kansas, whereas the hospital I was born.

325
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 1: So that's how I wound up in Kansas. Then he

326
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: my mom went to high school in New Mexico and

327
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: my my dad had to do his residency. He did

328
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,120
Speaker 1: it for like the Health Service and Indian Reservations and

329
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,959
Speaker 1: they moved to New Mexico and then they got divorced

330
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 1: when I was about five years old old. So I

331
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: kinda went back and forth, but mainly grew up. Grew

332
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 1: up in New Mexico in a little town called Sokoro,

333
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,720
Speaker 1: which was an awesome place to grow up, and it

334
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 1: was about like ten thousand people. But we got the

335
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 1: v l A there. I don't know if you've, like

336
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 1: you've seen the movie Contact, when Jodie Foster is in

337
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: this big satellite. It raised the most powerful radio telescope.

338
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: So you have all these astrophysicists, Carl Sagan, all these

339
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: this beautiful horizon, all this space, and you know that

340
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: kind of really influenced my sound too. I think like

341
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: I was really into Pink Floyd like when I when

342
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: I was one of the first things, like when I

343
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 1: really started like getting in the headphones and just listening

344
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: to music and this very expansive wide uh sound. You know,

345
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 1: it's kind of similar to the visual landscape and um

346
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, like think of like shine on you, crazy Diamond.

347
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 1: You know that's like a New Mexico sky and desert.

348
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: So that was kind of my childhood. Then I discovered jazz.

349
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: My mom kind and my mom's families from Ohio, like Pennsylvania,

350
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 1: Dutch Ohio family that and her dad kind of played

351
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 1: by ear like Oregon and trombone and really talented actually, Um,

352
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,239
Speaker 1: and then my mom could kind of play these like

353
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: jazzy arrangements, you know. She used to play like tenderly,

354
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: you know. And and I was here these like chords

355
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: like what is that? You know? And I'm growing up

356
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: also listening to the BGS and Kiss and uh Empire

357
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: strikes Back soundtrack. That was my That was my record

358
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: collection when I was a little kid. I had the

359
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: Muppet Show Empire Strikes Back and Uh Kiss Destroyer, you know.

360
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 1: And I got to meet Bob Ezrian actually he reached

361
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: out to me when we did some nights. I was

362
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: super awesome and had dinner with him and Alice Cooper,

363
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 1: Um but one of my heroes, and UM discovered jazz

364
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,399
Speaker 1: checked out an album from the library of Miles Davis,

365
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: and then I was just hooked and just got everything

366
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,399
Speaker 1: that Miles Davis ever did, and and also whoever worked

367
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: with him. I just started listening to all that and

368
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: I fell in love with jazz. Played in my high

369
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: school jazz band, and I spent a year in Germany

370
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: as an exchange student, got some more opportunities to see

371
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 1: more music and have better teachers that weren't available to

372
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 1: me in New Mexico and then I went to Berkeley

373
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: College of Music. But you know, it's kind of like

374
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: a nice place to have just the silence of your

375
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: own thoughts. And also kind of had like a bit

376
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: of a rough childhood, you know, with my parents divorce

377
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: and everything, and music has always been like a really

378
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: important emotional outlet for me to kind of process uh things. Um,

379
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 1: but I didn't have the kind of cultural richness that

380
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: maybe other places, like you know, Mike mark Ronson, you know,

381
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: like he really kind of brought me into this world

382
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: of culture and took me under his wing and introduced

383
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: me to everyone. And you know, he is just the

384
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 1: consummate gentleman of ficionado cultured guy. Um And I think

385
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: he even kind of mentioned once we're talking on this topic,

386
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, you're just thirsty for it. So

387
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: now I'm in this phase. And like with Kanye, like

388
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: he's such a just such a just a cultured person,

389
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, but similar from the Midwest, you know, like

390
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: we kind of had that simpatico, kind of down to

391
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: earth Midwestern nous mixed with this really highbrow kind of

392
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: space in our practice. Um. So that's kind of my story.

393
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: How do your parents meet and to either of them

394
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: get remarried? Do you have any siblings? Yeah, so my

395
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: mom got remarried briefly. They met at at university. My

396
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: mom was married briefly to another dentist. She's a dentist

397
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: in Colorado, and my dad's a physician and he got remarried.

398
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: And I do have two step sisters and a half

399
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 1: brother and a half sister who we all grew up

400
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: in the same household, so you know, we're pretty close.

401
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: And you know, we were like a real family with

402
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: all of our fighting and being sleeping on top of

403
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: each other and go on ski trips in the suburban

404
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: and uh breaking down on the side of the road,

405
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: and I had a reel. So I went from being

406
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: like an only child to having like being the oldest

407
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: of all these siblings. So yeah, okay, wait, hey, why

408
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: were we all living in the house and be we're

409
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: exactly is this in New Mexico? So it's like south

410
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: of Albuquerque due south on Oh wow, so like it's

411
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: like in the middle of the state basically, So it's

412
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 1: kind of between like uh, truth or consequences in Albuquerque,

413
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: you know, like right dead smack in the middle. Um, yeah,

414
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: like kind of on the Santa Fe trail and Rio

415
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: Grand Rio Grand just follows right straight down, and so

416
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: it's like Rio Grand Valley, Okay, and you're all living

417
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: in the same house. Explained that to me. Well, when

418
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: my dad remarried, she had two kids, they had two

419
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 1: more kids, and I was living with them. Okay, so

420
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: you were living with your dad, not with your mother.

421
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: I lived with my mom until I was eight, Um,

422
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: and then I uh, you know, my parents were married

423
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: until I was five. So I lived with my mom

424
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: for three years and then and then I moved back

425
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: with my dad when I was eight years old. Um,

426
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was like that age where

427
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: I started getting a little bit of like trouble at school.

428
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: I was having like uh yeah, I was having I

429
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: was having like a tough time, and I think my

430
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: mom was like, I think the phrase she uses like,

431
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: I think it's time for you to move with your dad.

432
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: Because I was getting a little and she was also graduated,

433
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: she wasn't met, she was in dental school. She was

434
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: kind of having a tough time, and um, it was

435
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: just like the right time for me to live with him,

436
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: and and definitely kind of instilled a little more of

437
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: that like Indian discipline in me when I needed it.

438
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: And and also like you know, young young boy, you

439
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,239
Speaker 1: want to live with your dad, You're kind of like

440
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: having that kind of feeling like, um, he's like your hero.

441
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,919
Speaker 1: And and then shortly after that he met his current

442
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: wife and she had two kids, and it was like whoa,

443
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: this is like a, this is not exactly what I

444
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: had in mind. But and then they had two kids.

445
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: But you know, we worked it out. We we we

446
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 1: we uh. We had a lot of ups and downs

447
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: and and that's family life, right. So what kind of

448
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: kid were you? Good in school? Bad at school? A

449
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: lot of friends, loner. I was good at school, but

450
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: kind of definitely like always through the outsider or the

451
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: marginal man, as my dad puts it, you know, like

452
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: he I think he felt like that, being like a

453
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: Indian kid in America and never really belonged anywhere, but

454
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: you kind of can fit in a lot of places. Um. Yeah,

455
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: I lived in Colorado. I was a little more dark skin,

456
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: not this kind of blonde Colorado kid named Kyle or something,

457
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: and like I didn't quite fit in there. And then

458
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: I moved to New Mexico, and I'm the gringo because

459
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: everyone's like Hispanic and like I'm like, now I'm too white.

460
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: So but I definitely kind of got a lot. I

461
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: had the advantage my dad's like been a long time

462
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: doctor in the community, has also been the mayor for

463
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: thirty years, so he's like a very well liked guy,

464
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: and so I definitely league fit into being like, oh,

465
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: your doctor Basker's son. You know, Everyone's like treated me

466
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: so nice, and it was so nice growing up in

467
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 1: a in a small town where everyone knows you. But

468
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: at the same time, like even to this day, and

469
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,199
Speaker 1: it's funny I look back on like like I was

470
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: taking French lessons during the pandemic, and I was I

471
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,239
Speaker 1: was always a good student in school, and like, you know,

472
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: it was like second in my class and and like

473
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: very achievement oriented and I love learning too, so um,

474
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: but when I went back into French class, I noticed

475
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: how unorganized I was and my notes and everything, and

476
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: I had this image of myself as being this real academic,

477
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: good student. But it reminded me I just do everything

478
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: by ear. It's like how I do music. You know,

479
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: I didn't learn how to read music. I can read music,

480
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: but everything I do in life I do by ear.

481
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: I listen, I take it in, I process it on

482
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: the fly. And that is kind of also it made

483
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: me think made me think about how like the more

484
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: you learn about yourself and how you behave and learn

485
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: made me realize how like I'm the kind of person

486
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: like I'll meet someone and five seconds later I can't

487
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: remember their name because it was like my dad introducing

488
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: me to people and I I was like, I was

489
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: just like block it out or something, you know, like

490
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: you're in your own world and and uh, I mean

491
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: it's something that I'm working on, but I think it's

492
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: also super interesting, like the more I learned about myself

493
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: and how I am and in embracing that, you know,

494
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: instead of kind of thing like, oh I need to

495
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: I need to work on that or that's like a

496
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: like a like an Achilles heel or something. But I

497
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: was kind of like that I had and I'm still

498
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: like that. I have kind of a tight group of friends,

499
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: but I'm not necessarily the most social person or um

500
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: post COVID changed out a lot, like I was like, wow,

501
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: I forgot I really like being social. I or it's

502
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 1: so nice. Not that I like it, but I like

503
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: to connect with people. I love connecting with people, and

504
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: I love, um being inspired by people, and and have

505
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: learned from some of the most inspiring people that I

506
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: know to listen more, to be the one asking the questions,

507
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: not just going on and on like I am right now.

508
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: But um, it's an interview, so I guess that's okay, Yeah,

509
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: it's about you. Well why did you start taking French lessons? Well,

510
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: my girlfriend really wanted to move to France, so it

511
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: was just something we were doing together and my my

512
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: son was possibly going to go to like a French school,

513
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: which I was just like, I had no idea why

514
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: we were going to do that, but um so I

515
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: just just something to do. So how far did you get?

516
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: I mean, can you speak French? Read French? No? No,

517
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: I can say Bonvon s Cajura said, you know, like

518
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: I can do some super basics. It was nice to

519
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: learn how to like pronounce things and and I can

520
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: speak German from being my my exchange How you end

521
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: up being an exchange student? What was that like? Yeah?

522
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: So so in my school, like this French teacher and

523
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: the German teacher were the same guy Mr Sylvester uh

524
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: in Coral High School. So every year would be like

525
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: depending on what year you went into school, it would

526
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: be like German one, French to German three. Then it

527
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: would be like next year would be French one, German two,

528
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: French three. So the year I got in, you know,

529
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: you know you want to take a foreign language, right,

530
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: I got in, it was German. And then one year

531
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,239
Speaker 1: there was a sign on the wall that was like

532
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: this Bundestalk Exchange, right, they picked a hundred kids from America,

533
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: hundred kids from It was during the reunification of Germany

534
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: the year that I went um and as a government

535
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: exchange program where they paid for everything. I had to do,

536
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: all these interviews I had to I had to basically

537
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: win and be like one of two kids they got

538
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: picked from New Mexico. They picked two from each state.

539
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: And I just wanted to get the hell out of

540
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: my town. I wanted to get the hell out of

541
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: my fucked up family life and get away. And also

542
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: I viewed if I could go to Germany, I would

543
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: be able to go to jazz clubs and sit in

544
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: and jam, and I might find a jazz piano teacher

545
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: and exactly it's like a matter of fact, that's exactly

546
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: what I did. And I would audition for these master

547
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: classes at all these jazz festivals, and I would ride

548
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: the train to Hamburg and go see all this jazz

549
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: went Marsalis and John McLaughlin and Jack d Jeannette and Gary,

550
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: Gary greg Osby and uh Gary Thomas, all these people

551
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: that were kind of my heroes. So that's why I

552
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: went and did it. And in the end it actually

553
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 1: was you know, and I got to live with this

554
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: wonderful family that was were farmers and just filled me

555
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: full of love and supported me so much, and it

556
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: was just a wonderful, wonderful year. So you're half South Asian.

557
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: You talk about issues of fitting, kid, but after you

558
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: get out of school, hey, you felt discrimination because it's

559
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: not like, uh, there are a lot of South Asians

560
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: in the popular music business in America. Yeah, and you

561
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't look at me and say, oh, you're Indian. I

562
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: think I say, like maybe one out of twenty people

563
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: can guess. They're gonna guess like Argentinean or Italian or

564
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: Spanish or something. But um, it's funny. You know where

565
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: you notice it is when you go to Europe, Like

566
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: I had this gig in Switzerland one time, playing at

567
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: the Ski area, and I gotta look from a guy.

568
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: Or in Germany where there's a lot of Turkish immigrants,

569
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, you notice it much more in those places,

570
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: feeling kind of a bit of this you're not white,

571
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 1: you know, kind of this kind of more deeper like

572
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: rooted racism than you even experience in America, uh, because

573
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: there's more diversity, you know. On the flip side, it

574
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: was really funny being like super into jazz, and you know,

575
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: there's this kind of it's like a white man can't jump,

576
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: It's like white man can't swing right. So in music

577
00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: school it would be like once the once uh the

578
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: Brothers would find out I was half Indian, they'd say, oh,

579
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: you're You're basically one of us, you know. So that

580
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: was kind of my ticket into like being able to

581
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: play with like the best guys and being kind of

582
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: accepted and embraced by them. So it went both ways,

583
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: you know. Um and and I think there is maybe

584
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: some element to that, even if it's maybe subconscious. That definitely,

585
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: like growing up, my dad spoke about uh us as

586
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: not being white. You know, we'd refer to white people

587
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: as the other and maybe he experienced that more. He

588
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: doesn't really get into his childhood, and but I'm sure

589
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: he must have felt that to some extent, and and

590
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: maybe also why he settled in New Mexico where the

591
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: browner the better and there's a strong Hispanic influence there.

592
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: Um that also influenced me, I think in how I

593
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: perceived myself, how I perceived where I fit into American culture,

594
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: and how I view American history. And you know, for me,

595
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: especially in jazz, like they teach you about the history

596
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: of jazz and the blues and then it came from

597
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: African slaves, and it's a very important part of your

598
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: jazz education to understand the history of it. And I

599
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: love under somewhere along the way, I've just been always

600
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: piecing together like the history of the world, right, like

601
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: how did we get here? And I think that's kind

602
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: of what art is is always kind of this reflection

603
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: of time periods, and production itself is stamps a time period,

604
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: right Like you listen to Phil Spector, You're you're hearing

605
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: the soundtrack to that. It's like seeing in black and

606
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: white or something like um. And even musically, UM, I'm

607
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: always conscious of where I where, what we're doing, where that,

608
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: what's behind us and what's in front of us, Like

609
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: we want to be on the cutting edge. We don't

610
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: want to repeat ourselves. But you're aware of what is

611
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: behind You know that that's maybe a bit that's a

612
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: bit lost in today's music. To go back to kind

613
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: of your what is the state of music? Of new music?

614
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: You know that's a part that maybe yet on some

615
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: levels it's it's kind of a perforated page. It's like

616
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: some levels some people aren't thinking about it. And then

617
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: sometimes you'd be surprised how much music these young people know,

618
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, or happened in hip hop? Right, People just say, oh,

619
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: hip hop, that's not music, and they don't know about music.

620
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: And I used to read that Keyboard magazine. There was

621
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: like a magazine called Keyboard Magazine and this interview was

622
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: interviewing Chuck d and he made this comment I remember

623
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: in this article. He said, people say music isn't hip

624
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: hop is in music? How come this guy knows more

625
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: about music than I do? Because they went through all

626
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: the records and they sampled everything, they read all the credits.

627
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: They know, they know the music backwards and forwards, you know.

628
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 1: So that's a big part of my practice is kind

629
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: of not you know, and again like I do it

630
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: by ear. I'm not like this. I don't have a

631
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: spreadsheet in my brain that knows all this stuff. I

632
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: have some friends that are just you know, marks like that,

633
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: even like diplos like that. You know. I have other

634
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: friends my friend Ethan Alipat who does now Again records,

635
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: and it's just this just just card catalog of like, oh,

636
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: this is a brilliant, obscure music. I do it all

637
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: by ear, but it's always on the forefront of my

638
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: practice to kind of at least on an approximate level,

639
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: know where I am on the map and the continuum

640
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: of music and art. So how do you end up

641
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: going to Berkeley College or music And what was your

642
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: experience there? Yeah, so, you know, being more academically oriented,

643
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: but like being so interested in music, I didn't know

644
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: if I had what it took to to have a

645
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: career in music. And I used to go to these

646
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: camps because they used to have these one week camp

647
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: in Santa Fe and in my kid in my jazz

648
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: band came back with this T shirt Berkeley Santa Fe Camp.

649
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: I said, I want to go to that, and then

650
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: they changed it to Los Angeles. So I went there

651
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: three years and then the last year that I went,

652
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: I said, and I'd go there and there's all these

653
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: kids from l A. They're like ripping piano and it's like, oh,

654
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: piano is actually my third instrument. I'm a trumpet player.

655
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, oh my god, Like I'm just like, oh,

656
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: I don't this is not you know, I suck, you know,

657
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: compared to these guys. They they have like three jazz

658
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: bands in their high school. And um, so I said

659
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: the last time, I said, well, if I get a scholarship,

660
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: they'd give out these little scholarships at the end, like

661
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: partial scholarships. And I did get a partial scholarship to

662
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: go to Berkeley. So I decided I'd go, and I

663
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: drove my car out there. I drove all by myself

664
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: to Boston, and I and I slept on my dorm

665
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: mattress without any sheets on it, and and uh, the

666
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: the tuition hadn't didn't clear because I was like working

667
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: that out for the rest of my dad had kicked

668
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: me out of the house and I was just kind

669
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: of on my own. But well, Why did your dad

670
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: kick you out of the house. I don't know. That's

671
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: a long story. Maybe we won't get into that one.

672
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 1: Oh Okay, was it behavior or drugs? It was neither,

673
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 1: to be honest, I was actually a real clean cut,

674
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: pretty good kid. I think it had more to do

675
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: with like some like uh inter family, like uh, it's

676
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: kind of a personal thing. That's like it really didn't

677
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: it really, to be honest, it just wasn't my fault.

678
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: It was something that you know, like uh uh, maybe

679
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: I didn't deserve to have happened to me, you know,

680
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: but uh, anyway, we'll leave it at that. Okay, But

681
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: just you're going to Berkeley, you take your car, you

682
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: go to Boston. You're sleeping on the match without cheets.

683
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: Is your father helping you out financially? My mom, my, mom,

684
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: my mom, and my uncle took over and pitched in. Yeah. Um.

685
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: And then I got there and like, you know, because

686
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: I had this scholarship, I had to play in this

687
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: scholarship ensemble, this Art Blakey jazz ensemble that was led

688
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: by Billy Pierce, who was the tenor player in the

689
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: Art Blakey band. When went Marcellis and Brandford Marsalis were

690
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: in there, so this really amazing era of and then

691
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: I remember this is still the era when like Branford

692
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: was the house m D of The Tonight Show, Jett,

693
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: Here's Harry Connick Jr. There was like Witten Marsalis is

694
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: winning double Grammy's Classical and jazz Like these guys were

695
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: still like superstars, right, Like jazz was still kind of

696
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: in the forefront of American culture to some extent, which

697
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: is I don't think is the same anymore. It's really interesting.

698
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: I heard the interview did with m Jacob Collier. You know,

699
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting the kind of subculture on Instagram,

700
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: all these jazz uh people have. It's really inspiring. Another

701
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: another one like the current state of like music, so

702
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: many look at that kid just just a genius, right,

703
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: so everything I ever wanted to be in music, but

704
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: now I'm me, which is cool too, um. But I

705
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: got in there and just felt like such a fraud

706
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: because these guys were just so killing. Like the bass player,

707
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: this guy Ruben Rodgers, would get out of classes and

708
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: I got to take the train down to New York.

709
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: So I got a gig with Winton and I'd be

710
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: like oh my fucking god, like I kill myself. But

711
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: in the end, you know, like it was great because

712
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: being going from being in Socora where I was like

713
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: the superstar of music too being like the dumbest guy

714
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: in the room, so to speak. It's just like the

715
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: best place you want to be, right because that's how

716
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: you learn being around this like the super inspiring people.

717
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: And there's this there's this famous jazz club in Boston

718
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: called Wally's which was like the first black owned uh

719
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: jazz club where all the cats back in the day

720
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: would go. And then even to that in that time

721
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: and probably to this day when anyone's in town, they

722
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: play it like I think it's Regatta Club is like

723
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: the jazz club in Boston. And then and then they

724
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: will sit in at Wali's after So I had I

725
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: ended up getting the gig there with these friends of

726
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: mine who are in this band Lettuce. I was in

727
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: this band Lettuce. I don't know if you've ever heard Lettuce,

728
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: It's like yeah, right, So that was kind of like

729
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: my crew. And then we got a Sunday night. It

730
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: was like Monday night was like I think Monday was

731
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: what was it? Monday was blues Tuesday was Fusion, Wednesday

732
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: was Fusion, Thursday was Latin, and Friday and Saturday was

733
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: straight ahead and Sunday was fusion. And you call it

734
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: the Sunday Night Band, Monday Night band, Tuesday Night Band

735
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: was the night band. So I went from having the

736
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: Tuesday Sunday Night Band two then I got called to

737
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: be in Rubens Band and the Tuesday Night Band and

738
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 1: the the first gig I remember he lent he leanked

739
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: over to my shoulder right before the first hit and

740
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: he said expect the unexpected, and I was like, oh,

741
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 1: ship boom hit the But so I played three nights

742
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: a week at Walies, you know, almost four hours a

743
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: night for like five years. You know. That's where I

744
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: really cut my teeth on being comfortable on stage and

745
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: improvising and listening and playing with like world class musicians,

746
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: you know. So that was an awesome experience in in

747
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: Berkeley and Boston, UM, but mostly Wallis was like the

748
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: real education, you know. I mean, it was cool being

749
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: in Berkeley, but it's mostly the environment and it's uh,

750
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's it's kind of a it's a

751
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: bit of a business, you know, like they're kind of

752
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: it's the largest music school, and you know, maybe it's

753
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 1: not the seventies Berkeley that I had imagined, but at

754
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: the same time, it was a wonderful time in my life.

755
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: For sure. Did you graduate and you went in thinking

756
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: you wanted to be X and you exited thinking you

757
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: wanted to be what I went in exactly. I went

758
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: in and I was like, Okay, I got a major

759
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: in something. I'll major in education because I'm gonna need

760
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: a job. What other degree is gonna help me out?

761
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: And then I switched that to a double major in

762
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: jazz composition and music education. And then I had accumulated

763
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: all these credits and I was like, Ship, I just

764
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: want to get the funk out of here. Let me

765
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: change to this major called professional music where you get

766
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: to make your own curriculum, and I could take all

767
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: those credits and just put them together. And I'm actually

768
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: like one credit short of actually getting my paper. And

769
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: I was like on the cover of Berkeley magazine they're

770
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: always citing using my name as an alumni. Grammy awarding

771
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: me asked me to do all this, Ship, I said,

772
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: why did you just give me the degree? Like give

773
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: me the it's like the credit I'm missing is some

774
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: stupid thing like make a record, and I'm like, bro,

775
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: like I I like it was the Producer of the Year.

776
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: Do you want to maybe just give me the degree?

777
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: I can't believe they are gonna make me take the

778
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: fucking class. Can you believe that? Well? You know, I

779
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: I gotta believe there's some way, assuming it's important to you,

780
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: and I think maybe they're listening right now, is uh

781
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: they should find some way to marry your experience with

782
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: a thing and say, hey, yeah, do this. You know

783
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: there's a way. That would have thought so I would

784
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: have thought. So they're hardcore man. It's like a it's

785
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: like scientology or something like. You cannot break the rules.

786
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: You gotta take that credit, you gotta pay that money. Okay,

787
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: So how do you end your tenure Berkeley? And then

788
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: what do you do? So I decided to move to

789
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 1: New York because I had been kind of driving back

790
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: and forth gigging down there, and at this point in time,

791
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: you're done with Berkeley, what do you see your future as.

792
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 1: That's when I started getting into production because I bought

793
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: some recording equipment. I had an old like D A

794
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: thirty digital eight track recorder and a couple of outboard effects,

795
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: a s R ten, some keyboards, and I started making

796
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: like R and B music and transferring from kind of

797
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: like my jazz aesthetic and a ranger aesthetic and instead

798
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: just recording the arrangement myself, you know, and kind of

799
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: playing everything, sometimes really poorly. But that's the beauty of

800
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: recording is you can kind of do it until you

801
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: get it right, which is also an amazing practice. Right

802
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: you're basically practicing and you're just recording it, listening back

803
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: to it, critically, listening to it. Um So I had

804
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: moved and I wanted to move to New York and

805
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: pursue production more. You know, then you're gonna live on

806
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: what So I worked in a wedding band. I worked

807
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 1: in this incredible wedding band that was like all these

808
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: amazing musicians and really well runn business. You know. Um

809
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: Bill Garside and his wife Karen Garcide, who shout out

810
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: to Night Shift in Boston. We played. You know, they

811
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: were like the best wedding band in New England, right,

812
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: we were like four seasons. Anyone who wanted like the

813
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: best wedding band at their wedding, that was us. So

814
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: and they paid real good. So I moved down to

815
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: New York, and I would drive back to Boston and

816
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: all over New England, Cape Cod sometimes Vermont, and like

817
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 1: I would do like a wedding Friday night. I would,

818
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: you know, I would drive up through drive up through

819
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, up through all that traffic, sweating that I'm

820
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: gonna make it on time, and play a wedding Friday.

821
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 1: I would do a double Saturday, double Sunday. I'd do

822
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: the cocktail hour and and i'd make my rent for

823
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: the month, you know, and then I go back to

824
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: New York and play some kind of shitty gigs and

825
00:45:48,680 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: just produce and write songs. Okay, so you're in New York,

826
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: you got enough money to pay the rent. How do

827
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: you make the connections to start to get tracks? Well?

828
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,479
Speaker 1: I didn't, and I was about to give up on music,

829
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: because you know what. The day I moved to New

830
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: York was nine eleven. I had my all my ship

831
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: packed up in my car, and my dad called me

832
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: and said, hey, you're still moving to New York. And

833
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: I said yeah. I said, well you should turn on

834
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: the television. So I was like, okay, you know, they

835
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: advised us not to drive to New York. But I

836
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: had this girlfriend that lived outside, like in Yonkers, and

837
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 1: I kind of stayed with her, and then I drove

838
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: in the next day to sign my lease. There was

839
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: dust all over the cars and everything. So I lived

840
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: in this era of post nine eleven New York and

841
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 1: everything shut down, Studios, anyone who wanted to help you,

842
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,919
Speaker 1: because that's how you make it right, like people help you,

843
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: maybe you get you kind of do some little jobs

844
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: for someone who's doing really well. None of that happened,

845
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: so I was really struggling. Then I had some friends

846
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: who had moved to Los Angeles who were doing really

847
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: well doing jingles, mixing five point one stuff and more

848
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 1: technical stuff. But they were my friend Greg Morgenstein and

849
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: Jeff Reid, who were like, uh, had this this company

850
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: enormous music and they'd say, well, here, do this to

851
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: this jingle demo for us. I can pay you three

852
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 1: hundred bucks to do this jingle demo. Okay, I never

853
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: won one, but I think I won one. I do

854
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: I won like a like a uh sunny d commercial.

855
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: I I actually won. But other than that, I was

856
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: just making demo fees and they were so sweet. And

857
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: I would start coming out and and and uh visiting them.

858
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: A matter of fact, my manager and longtime friend Neil Jacobson,

859
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: who I think you know who end up being started

860
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: up internship at Interscope, kind of went to go visit

861
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: him and just fell in love with l A. Oh

862
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: my god, like the weather and like everything, so kind

863
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: of like you've got a pool in your house and

864
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: like compare and I was living in a cave basically

865
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: in green Point, Brooklyn, freezing my ass off, just broke um.

866
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: So I started coming out and like take you get

867
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: like a round trip ticket for like two bucks and

868
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: go out and visit. And then I finally said, you

869
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: know what, I'm gonna move there. I'm just gonna move.

870
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: Their place opened up in the house. We had a

871
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: studio there, and the very first track that I did

872
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 1: was the first placement I got on the Games album.

873
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: So it was like remember the Game, like in like

874
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: two thousand four or something, right, So it was like

875
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: Timbaland just Blaze, Dr Dre, Kanye West, Jeff Basker like

876
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: it was like this, like wow, like I got so

877
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: l A has just been very very lucky and and

878
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: uh good been good to me. Moving here and and

879
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: everything just changed, the dynamic change of being in New

880
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: York and being so it's like a guy who's never

881
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: gotten laid talking to girls and they can just like

882
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: smell it on you. Like I'd just be in New

883
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: York just like can you listen to my demo and

884
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: just be like I get away from to Like in

885
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: l A, you'd you'd hang out with people and you'd

886
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: like just be hanging out and then get to know

887
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: them as a person, and and then at the end

888
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: of the conversation they'd be like, what do you do,

889
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: by the way, and it would always be this is

890
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: just the whole energy just flipped. So I've just been

891
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: so fortunate to uh to have that experience in l A.

892
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: And then things kind of didn't really take off for me.

893
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: And I was working for Diane Warren to a friend

894
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: of mine did like drumbeats for her that she would

895
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: write her songs too, and then he brought me into

896
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: help with Then we would make the demos for her

897
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: and get a singer to sing, and I'd say, why

898
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: don't we, why don't we just why you should just

899
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: play this for them? Diane like no, no, no, no,

900
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: I need like a real, real, uh real demo. But

901
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: I learned so much about so and I wanted to

902
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: come to l A to learn songwriting. I wanted to

903
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: definitely get into stick a get away from doing like

904
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: just beats or production for other people, and write the

905
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: song too. And I learned an immense amount from her,

906
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: just so subtle and so nuanced the way she writes

907
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: these iconic songs that have little details in them that

908
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 1: you don't even notice, you know. And and then also

909
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: met Steve Lindsay. I don't know if you're familiar with

910
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: Steve Lindsay. He had signed Bruno also, and he was

911
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: kind of our mentor in like hit songwriting, UM and

912
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: just doing my little songs. Let's go back a chapter.

913
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: So it was your first composition? How did you get

914
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: into the game? How did that happen? So, my very

915
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: first placement was with this girl wop l A, who

916
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of had she put out. I met her at Berkeley.

917
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: Then she moved back to the Bay. She was from

918
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: the Bay and put out this album UM on her

919
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: own label with her brother's help, on Skyblaze Records. And

920
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: she had this record called Closer that was like a hit.

921
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: It was like number one on cam L when like

922
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: into club was like the number one song everywhere. At

923
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 1: k M e L it was closer and then number

924
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: two fifty in the club. So she had this like

925
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: hit indie record and I had a couple of cuts

926
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: on that record, and she was doing her second record

927
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: and said, you got any You got any music that

928
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: you want to share with me. I didn't really have

929
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: that much. I had like a couple of things that

930
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: were appropriate for her. It's kind of like a neo

931
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: soul R and B I from a beautiful voice. Um.

932
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: And then I had this beat that I did, like

933
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 1: with g unit in mind, Like I was just decided

934
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: I was gonna make the hardest beat of all time,

935
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: and so I threw that on there. It's kind of

936
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: like a joke, like it was totally inappropriate for her.

937
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: But her brother Nomani heard it and was like, hey,

938
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: what are you doing at that beat? You mind if

939
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: I give it to game? I said yeah, sure, and

940
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: he placed it. Last minute. I was visiting my grandparents

941
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: and iowah, and I get a call we want the

942
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: session files And my buddy had to go dig out

943
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: this old computer that I had made the beat on

944
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: and to find the session and delivered it to the

945
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 1: studio and Dr Dre mixed the track, and I met

946
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: Dr Dre walked in the room and walked over to

947
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: me with his hand out, was like meeting like Obama

948
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: or something, and like shook my hand and said, you

949
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 1: made a great track. You made a great track. I

950
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: was just like wow, like this is just amazing. So

951
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,280
Speaker 1: but it all came like totally by accident, like sending

952
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: it out. I mean, that's a good lesson that I

953
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: still got to keep in mind. Now. It's like like

954
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 1: with Beyonce too, Like I had all this kind of obscure, weird,

955
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: dark music that my publisher Katie Welly at Sony at

956
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: the time, Uh, I'm you know, it was kind of

957
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: Jody Gerson's right hand woman. UM, and I'm still with

958
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: Jody at Universal. Um said do you mind if I

959
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: send those Billy Craven songs to Beyonce. I was like, sure,

960
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: go for it. But and there's no chance in hell

961
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 1: she's gonna want that. Turns out that's exactly what she wanted,

962
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:59,359
Speaker 1: you know. So it's like you never know, a matter

963
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: of fact, you should probably count on people want the

964
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: opposite of what you are. They definitely don't want their

965
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: what their last hit sounded like, which is whatever people

966
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: are trying to give them what their last hit is.

967
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: They think, what would Beyonce want? Well, I'll sounder another single? Ladies,

968
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: It's like, well they want the next thing, you know,

969
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: so and most of all they want you and what

970
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 1: your creative essence is something unique? Right, So in both

971
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: those cases, it was the uniqueness of what I was

972
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: doing that one and bore out, you know. Okay, so

973
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: you're talking about all these lessons and these little things

974
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 1: you'll learn from Diane, and then ultimately they're after working

975
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 1: with lindsay, Um, can you give us a couple of those? Sure? Well,

976
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like one thing I noticed with Diane because

977
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: like I had, like I have a really good musical here, right,

978
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: and especially from like playing wedding band. Thing was like

979
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: pretty easy for me because I could just like listen

980
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 1: to a song and I can just play it and

981
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 1: I know the structure and I have a background in composition,

982
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: so you know, I would listen to her demo and

983
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I got this down easy. Boom,

984
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: I started doing it, and somewhere in the middle or

985
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: like a quarter of the way through I would get

986
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: off somehow, and I said, this was such a simple progression.

987
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: What happened? And I go back and listen to it. Oh,

988
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,839
Speaker 1: she dropped a little beat out there, you know. And

989
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think one tendency is sometimes like you

990
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: tend to want to extend a bar or something. And

991
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: that's one lesson I learned from her, is like, don't

992
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: ever extend pull the rug out, like you want to

993
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: take a beat away so that that chorus hits them faster.

994
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: You don't want to make them wait, you want to

995
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: be unexpected. I mean, she was just full of little

996
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: tricks like that, you know, or like just a simple

997
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 1: something that seemed like a simple figure, but there's some

998
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: little melody going on on the inside of of what

999
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: she's doing. And that was like one of Lindsay's things too,

1000
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: write like um for everything to be hooks, you know,

1001
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 1: everything to be the little hookie things, and especially like

1002
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: I'm a lot of cook you know, like that's uh,

1003
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to give away like the secrets of

1004
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: of Steve Lindsay, but but uh, but you know, a

1005
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of it is like I mean, I think to

1006
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: the point is like there's a real craft to doing,

1007
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: to writing great songs and to making uh. I think

1008
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: there's inspiration, but I think that gets a little lost

1009
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: along the way. And that's something I try to do

1010
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: in my production to try to encourage the artists to

1011
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 1: keep pushing, keep refining, keep keep working on it until

1012
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,479
Speaker 1: it's the best, best, best thing it can be. Play

1013
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: it for other people, like listen to it through their ears.

1014
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, you'll know you'll think something is great, and

1015
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: then play it for something you kind of feel a

1016
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: lull in the rooms. Okay, I gotta fix that, you know,

1017
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: but you want you need that song. You talk about

1018
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 1: that a lot in your in your letters, like about

1019
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: really crafty, like you you need something that is gonna

1020
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,439
Speaker 1: just murder, like you can't look. Don't think you're gonna

1021
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: go out there and just get in fired and write

1022
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 1: it on there. I don't know forget who said it,

1023
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: but it's a great quote. Inspiration is for amateurs. You know,

1024
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: you go in there and do the work, make the donuts,

1025
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, and the special sauces to be critical of

1026
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: yourself because guess what, once it's released, you can't go

1027
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: back and fix it. Although I guess Kanye kind of

1028
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 1: pioneered like the that being fake, but but you know,

1029
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,359
Speaker 1: ultimately you this is your chance to make it as

1030
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: good as it can be. And that's the whatever rules

1031
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: you follow, or you know, make your own rules, but

1032
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: have rules, have limitations, be critical of yourself, don't go

1033
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: for the I'll tell you one thing I did that

1034
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: really just was a real magical thing that I did

1035
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: for myself, you know, and your peers. Of like you're

1036
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: playing music for your peers, like listen to this beat

1037
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: I did, and everyone's You want to play music for everyone, right,

1038
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: it starts to become like a burden, like people like, okay,

1039
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: let me listen to your fucking song. At one point,

1040
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, I just said, you know what, I

1041
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: am not going to ask anyone to listen to my

1042
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 1: mean USIC anymore. I want people to beg to listen

1043
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: to my music, you know. And that's like that's the

1044
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: reaction you want, right. You want to play something and

1045
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: you want them to say, can I hear that one

1046
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: more time? You want them to listen to it again.

1047
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: So just having that mentality I think of, like you

1048
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: want to make your music so good that people want

1049
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: to listen to it, not like subject. It's a lot

1050
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: of effort to listen to someone's song, you know, so

1051
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 1: you better make it freaking good. Like, don't waste their time.

1052
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: Kanye said to me once. The first time I played

1053
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: him something, he said, don't ever waste my time like

1054
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: that again. He says, time is the one thing that

1055
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: I can't get back, and you just wasted it, you know.

1056
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: So the next time I played him something is I

1057
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 1: made sure it was the right thing, and that's when

1058
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: he said, Oh, you're gonna make my next album with me,

1059
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: he told my mom. My mom came backstage one night

1060
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: to one of the shows because I used to play

1061
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: in Kanye's band. That's how I met him. I was

1062
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: his music director and one and my mom came to

1063
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: one of the shows and he said, I mean, Kanye,

1064
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: this is the side of Kanye that people don't see.

1065
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: It's stuff like we played in Albuquerque. He's he hasn't

1066
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: had slept, He's just did a show. He's not feeling

1067
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: that great. He like hung out with my family for

1068
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: like an hour, you know, like and like just like

1069
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: shooting the ship. That's that old Midwestern like Mama raised

1070
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 1: you right shit. And then my my mom came backstage

1071
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: to one of the shows and he said, oh, Jeff Man,

1072
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: Jeff so great. He's like, just kinna, He's gonna produce

1073
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 1: my next album. And I was like, I am, you know,

1074
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 1: because I played him this song. And that's a lot

1075
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: of the influence of the stuff I was doing and

1076
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: my love of melody and and learning from Diane and

1077
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: mixing it with this kind of darker aesthetic. That's what

1078
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: he was kind of interested in, that realm, and that's

1079
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: when Ada Waits and Heartbreaks kind of came together and

1080
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 1: he his love of melody. He decided he wanted to

1081
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: be a melodist, you know. And he saw me and

1082
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: he was like, oh, you can help me do this

1083
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: because you get it, and you also understand can temporary art,

1084
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: or at least have an interest in it. And you

1085
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: understand what I'm trying to do kind of merge highbrow

1086
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: and lowbrow, classical avant guard. You know, it's always a

1087
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: mixture and a cocktail of polar opposites that exist in

1088
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: tension with one another. Okay, let's pick up the narrative.

1089
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,439
Speaker 1: So you know, you're working with Diane and you're working

1090
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: with Steve Lindsay, you introduce you and Bruno. What happens next?

1091
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: So what happens is I get the call to do

1092
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: some backup keyboard gigs. And we bet you remember the

1093
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: Scion car. Maybe they still make them, but they were

1094
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: doing these Scion cars to appeal to like people who

1095
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: like hip hop music. So they started sponsoring these tours

1096
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,439
Speaker 1: with the Rizza with Slick Rick, did like a tour

1097
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: of Colorado with Slick Rick Um and did the Game,

1098
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: did something with the Game with the Lettuce guys. Right,

1099
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: we were like backing up these rappers. Then I get

1100
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 1: a call I had done this gig with this band Chromeo.

1101
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know of Chromeo, right, and

1102
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 1: Dave the Dave One, the lead singer, UM and Brilliant

1103
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Guys a couple of like awesome guys. I played in

1104
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,760
Speaker 1: their live band at the beginning. And then but Dave

1105
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 1: One's little brothers A track who the DJA, who was

1106
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 1: kind of a DJ at the time, and they needed

1107
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: a substitute keyboard player because their keyboard player had to

1108
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: go to some other gig with jay Z I think,

1109
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: And so he asked a track said, you know when

1110
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: your keyboard player A track asked his brothers who recommended

1111
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: my friend Nick Casper, who was the other keyboard player

1112
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: and Chromeo and Nick said, nah, you should get Jeff.

1113
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: He'll do he'll do a better job. You know, it's

1114
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 1: more his his thing. Um. So I got the call

1115
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: to be Kanye's sub keyboard player, did the Jimmy Kimmel

1116
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: Show right when he released Graduation and did a few gigs.

1117
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: The other keyboard player was ready to come back and

1118
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: they said, no, what we decided we want to keep you.

1119
01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: You're so I was getting in there. I was like,

1120
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: it's when we had like a track, a keyboard player

1121
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: and then it's like all female, like Miniature Orchestra was

1122
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: amazing group. And I've noticed like this this arrangement is

1123
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: a little like messed up, Like this part's not right.

1124
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: Do you mind if I And I'd ask him you

1125
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: mind if I changed that? He's like, go ahead, fix

1126
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: fix this, fix that, And and a track was telling me,

1127
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,479
Speaker 1: He's like, you know what, this is great, keep doing

1128
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: this because he needs someone like you. There's no like

1129
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,479
Speaker 1: music director for someone with your skill set to kind

1130
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: of polish all these things musically. So I kind of

1131
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: went in there with the goal of making myself indispensable,

1132
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: and I had always been kind of a fan, like,

1133
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: not not so obsessed like it was the end all

1134
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: be all, but I really admired his kind of idio

1135
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: sync syncratic style and and humor and and the positive

1136
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: kind of like empowered thing that he embodied. So right

1137
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 1: away we kind to hit it off, and then I

1138
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 1: became his music director, and then he started inviting me

1139
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: to the studio, and kind of the rest is history

1140
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 1: as far as that era of the might work with Kanye,

1141
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, and worked on EIGHTA Weights and and Dark

1142
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,439
Speaker 1: Twisted Fantasy as well as like jay Z Blueprint three

1143
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: and uh a few other things, you know, but but

1144
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 1: mainly all that work with and then you know, still

1145
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: played in his band and like did the world tour

1146
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: like Glow in the Dark Tour, and which was amazing

1147
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 1: because we always got to work with the best lighting people,

1148
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: the best stage designers as Devlin you know. Um, I

1149
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: love that part of it. And that's how I actually

1150
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: got the Gaga gig, because remember they were going to

1151
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: do a joint show and then it fell apart, but

1152
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: she said, well, you do my my show, So so

1153
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: many opportunities came from that and also just like the

1154
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: finishing school of being, like, oh shit, like this is

1155
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 1: how hard someone can work. Like just seeing how hard

1156
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: he worked and and how focused he was and uncompromising

1157
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: and and also like you know, it was just like

1158
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 1: the ultimate graduate school of being. Also being an artist,

1159
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: like taught me what it means to be an artist

1160
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: because he just true to himself and explores his ideas

1161
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: and also so outside of the mainstream, right just setting

1162
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 1: the trends and setting defining, not following ever, and it

1163
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 1: kind of it away was my little version of not little,

1164
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: but my version of working being with Miles Davis. You know,

1165
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: like as a jazz musician, you'd you would get picked

1166
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: up by some iconic leader and then you would learn

1167
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: from them, So it's kind of similar aesthetic. I think

1168
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: also that he was such an intelligent guy, so uncompromising,

1169
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:45,440
Speaker 1: but also very rooted in the black tradition and outspoken socially,

1170
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: and just like that was an incredibly formative time for me.

1171
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 1: And then I kind of had to go out on

1172
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 1: my own and and and do my own thing. And Okay,

1173
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: so how did it end with Kanye And what's your

1174
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 1: really ship with Kanye today? Well, it ended because I said,

1175
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: you know what, I don't think I want to be

1176
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 1: in the band anymore. I just want to be in

1177
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: the studio. And he kind of got upset about that

1178
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 1: because I think it was kind of like, oh man,

1179
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: it was a tight inner circle. You know, it kind

1180
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: of maybe felt like I was abandoning him or but

1181
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 1: the reality was just like, hey, I could be out

1182
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: there and making hit records. I don't need to be

1183
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: in this like rehearsal space, eating a bag of chips

1184
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: and waiting twelve hours for you to show up. Um,

1185
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: not that it was always like that, because I would

1186
01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: be in the studio, but it was just quite a

1187
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: brutal existence. You know, at the time it was great,

1188
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: but taking a forty hour flight from Rio de Janeiro

1189
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: in economy to Singapore, like after you had food poisoning,

1190
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: like it was just like physically demanding, and you know,

1191
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: moving forward to me like he's kind of my idol

1192
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: and role model, like you would never limit yourself. You

1193
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: want to keep growing and keep expanding on So for

1194
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,680
Speaker 1: a brief period we kinda stop contact, but then you know,

1195
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: anytime he would call, I would go back and do

1196
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: some more gigs. I could do the Coachella when he

1197
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 1: headline Coachella or any little gig or you know, he

1198
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: always kind of calls in all the forces for any

1199
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: project to get all the manpower on deck. Um. So

1200
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 1: when Kanye calls, I answer and I happily go in

1201
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: and you know, just like this last one like come

1202
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: to Life on the Donda record. You know, I always

1203
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 1: just love being around his energy, and it's just like

1204
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: the most inspiring environment and positive environment like you can

1205
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 1: be in creatively because he really sets the tone for

1206
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: her for that and you're always around like the most

1207
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: creative interesting people. But you know, I kind of hold

1208
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: like a like a have my boundary of where I

1209
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 1: have to preserve my own creative practice and how much

1210
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 1: time because you can get sucked into it. It is

1211
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 1: a very like powerful world to get sucked into. Um.

1212
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: But it's such a you know, it's such a privilege

1213
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: to be able to move in and out of that

1214
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: circle and and um, I feel really blessed to when

1215
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: I get that call and go in and and do

1216
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 1: that thing and then be able to go outside and

1217
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 1: do my own thing again. Okay, I'll be home with

1218
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: Kanye once. And what I most remember about that experience

1219
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: was he had no sense of humor about himself. Okay,

1220
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: he talked about himself in the third person a little bit,

1221
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: and it was an addressing room, you know, it was

1222
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 1: there was no pressure, so it was kind of funny.

1223
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:51,600
Speaker 1: And certainly since then a lot has changed in his life.

1224
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,919
Speaker 1: So and then, of course many people believe he's bipolar.

1225
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: What is going on with Kanye? I mean to be honest,

1226
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: I can't really comment on what is going on with

1227
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: him or what, like, to what extent he is a

1228
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: bipolar or not or anything. To me, he is like

1229
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 1: the most brilliant artists out there, like by a thousand miles,

1230
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: and he is uncompromising and on a kind of on

1231
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,240
Speaker 1: a mission. You know. He's a philosopher in a sense

1232
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: that he and that's kind of the part of like

1233
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: the third person is like being able to say in

1234
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: the grand scheme, you know, like here's what I'm meant

1235
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: to He's always trying to find meaning in what he does,

1236
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 1: right and um finding truth, you know, like one example,

1237
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: one one other story I can tell about, like with

1238
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: eight O weights and heartbreaks. When I asked for my publishing,

1239
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 1: you know, and I think a lot of people around

1240
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: him like we're like, hey, you know, just trying to

1241
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: protect him, not in a not in a kind of

1242
01:08:04,920 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 1: nefarious or kind of unfair way. We're trying to limit

1243
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 1: my contribution, uh, publishing wise and monetarily, because they're just

1244
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: negotiating for his side. It was had nothing to do

1245
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 1: with anything anyone doing anything wrong. And I remember at

1246
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 1: one point he said, give Jeff his publishing, like he

1247
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 1: who made a very point to be fair about it,

1248
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: and even further, at one point I said, you know,

1249
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: I got teen percent on this. I think it should

1250
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:36,080
Speaker 1: be and and I kind of felt sheepish about asking

1251
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: him because I was so grateful. He kind of gave

1252
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,639
Speaker 1: me a big chunk anyway, and he said, hey, it's

1253
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: not about feeling bad or this or that. It's about

1254
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 1: being fair, you know. And that moment kind of gave

1255
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:54,040
Speaker 1: me a little insight into I think even in his music,

1256
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:59,120
Speaker 1: it's very self examining, you know, and he really wants

1257
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: to get to the body of why we're here, What

1258
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 1: is the truth? You know, kind of in classical art

1259
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: or the idea of like uh uh, a perfect truth,

1260
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: things that are perfect and beautiful, that there's a truth

1261
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: to beauty that's my take on it, like that he

1262
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 1: has this sense of what's what's the truth? And I

1263
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: think especially in this day and age where things are

1264
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:28,719
Speaker 1: so polarized, and I think that I was just having

1265
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:32,640
Speaker 1: this conversation with someone about how we want things to be.

1266
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: We need things to be black and white because it

1267
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 1: makes it much easier to process and deal with. But

1268
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:41,439
Speaker 1: the reality is, it's just not like the world is

1269
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,759
Speaker 1: just not black and white. There are so many shades

1270
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:48,800
Speaker 1: of gray, and everything is a conversation, right, and the

1271
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 1: truth maybe even hard to pin down, like if you

1272
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: even get to like quantum physics, how they say, like

1273
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 1: if you observe something, it changes you know. It's like

1274
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: it's just so ultimately and unfathomably complex the world. And

1275
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: I think in trying to bring those things into the

1276
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: light and saying the uncomfortable things and saying and exploring

1277
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 1: the uncomfortable topics that gets him and a lot of

1278
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:13,960
Speaker 1: like people just cannot understand it because they need things

1279
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 1: to be black or white. They need to be John Legend,

1280
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:18,920
Speaker 1: or they need it to be fucking Floyd Mary whether

1281
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: or I don't know what what what what think how

1282
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: you want to explain it? But I think with him,

1283
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 1: He's not gonna stop being who he is for anyone else.

1284
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 1: That's always been the constant mantra, like I am gonna

1285
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: no one's gonna define me. I'm gonna define myself. And

1286
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 1: to be honest, in America, if you're a black man

1287
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:44,960
Speaker 1: and you have that attitude, you're gonna hit get some blowback.

1288
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,400
Speaker 1: You know. If you're Marlon Brando and you punch a

1289
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,840
Speaker 1: photographer in the face, you're like cool and you're you're

1290
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, wow, such a yeah, Like those photographers are

1291
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: so invasive. If you're Kanye, like, oh man, he's unhinged,

1292
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: he's bipolar, you know, Like there's definitely an undercurrent of

1293
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: racism in the viewpoint of Kanye West. And then there's

1294
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:09,680
Speaker 1: all kinds of complicated things around it too. And I

1295
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:11,479
Speaker 1: don't want to spend too much time talking about Kanye,

1296
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:17,160
Speaker 1: but you know, I can just say from many experiences

1297
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: that he's not a different person so much. He's maybe

1298
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 1: he's he's grown and he's changed, but his core hasn't changed.

1299
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 1: And at that core is a person who truly wants

1300
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 1: to better the world through his actions, you know. And

1301
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 1: I think it gets complicated, but you know, there have

1302
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: been too many moments of of goodwill. And I think

1303
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 1: anyone that has been in a more casual environment, you know,

1304
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: maybe not with like someone who writes about music and

1305
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 1: you're kind of on your guard, but if you've ever

1306
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: been in this studio, in his creative environments, you feel

1307
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 1: an overwhelmingly positive and uplifting feeling. I think even his

1308
01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: music it has at its essence that feeling positive, uplifting.

1309
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: Uh true, true? You know, like those are all these

1310
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of like things that I hear in his music from,

1311
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 1: like a sense of hope, you know, touch the sky

1312
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:37,080
Speaker 1: you know. Um, I wonder and I wonder if you

1313
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 1: know what it means to find your dreams lift off.

1314
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 1: You know, it's just like an endless graduation. It's just

1315
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: an endless dream stronger. You know. It's always this empowering, uplifting,

1316
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:53,080
Speaker 1: positive emotion that I think says a lot about who

1317
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 1: Kanye West is. So you wake up and say, hey,

1318
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:57,679
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to be flying a coach

1319
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: around the world. I want to do more own thing.

1320
01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: When you leave Kanye, do you have opportunities that have

1321
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: come to you want to fulfill or do you basically say,

1322
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, I can't do the Kanye thing anymore. I'm

1323
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:12,760
Speaker 1: gonna hang up my shingle and see what happens. No,

1324
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 1: I already had a lot of pressure. I had. I

1325
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 1: had try Sleeping with a Broken Heart in the can

1326
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:18,640
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you remember that record by

1327
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 1: Alicia Keys, but Beyonce, Rihanna, and Alicia Keys all wanted

1328
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 1: that record. So I had like a heater and everyone

1329
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: was like I had. I had every label and every

1330
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 1: manager calling me going like what is it gonna take

1331
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: to get this record from you? So I had like

1332
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:37,680
Speaker 1: a missile uh in my back pocket. That was, you know,

1333
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:44,160
Speaker 1: already like hey, you know I could do this. I could. Uh.

1334
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:46,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of what happened when I signed with Jody

1335
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,040
Speaker 1: was she came over and she thought she was gonna

1336
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 1: sign like Kanye's keyboard player, and I played her try

1337
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:52,479
Speaker 1: something the Broken Heart and she was like, oh shit,

1338
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: You're like you're like the total package, Like you have

1339
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: a whole aesthetic, you can write the whole song. So

1340
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:01,760
Speaker 1: it was about kind of falling. It was kind of

1341
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 1: like okay, like everything I had learned up to that point,

1342
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 1: now let's go. Let's let's get in the game. And

1343
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,040
Speaker 1: where I kind of left off with the game track.

1344
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:13,920
Speaker 1: Why it didn't pop off, it was because I wasn't

1345
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: really ready, you know. Now I was ready and try

1346
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:21,679
Speaker 1: to see the Broken Heart happened, the Beyonce cuts happened,

1347
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 1: Then Nate Ruce came along, and then it went and

1348
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 1: Bruno and Mark ronson and then it was just this

1349
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 1: stream of like got to work at Taylor Swift called

1350
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: I got to work with the Rolling Stones, which was

1351
01:14:34,320 --> 01:14:37,200
Speaker 1: an amazing experience that Jimmy Iveen put together. That was

1352
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 1: all from some nights that was all like mix and

1353
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 1: here and we are young and be like, why can't

1354
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 1: we do a song like that? And Jimmy saying, I

1355
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: know the guy, you know, because that was when Neil

1356
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:49,040
Speaker 1: was That was when Neil was like his protege and

1357
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: was like, um so just you know, just so many

1358
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 1: a little bit slower. So you have this song, you

1359
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: start to have this success us what happens next? Do

1360
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 1: you hunker down in a studio and start writing more

1361
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: stuff or do you start working with people to build

1362
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 1: from the ground up? You know, you get you have

1363
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:14,920
Speaker 1: that one amazing track, and how much of it is you?

1364
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: And how much of it is Jody or the other

1365
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: people who are you know, working for you mostly me,

1366
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 1: right because it's just after the so I was talking

1367
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: about like the Kanye stamp of approval, and then also

1368
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: throw the try sleep in the Broken Heart on it,

1369
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: which at the time was like a very influential record,

1370
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:36,679
Speaker 1: like it was her first number one UK record, and

1371
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:40,160
Speaker 1: even to this day people tell me like that's their

1372
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: favorite song of mine, like that was a really special moment.

1373
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,480
Speaker 1: Kind of became my calling card. I think all producers

1374
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 1: out there like and writers like that's what you should

1375
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 1: be focusing on, Like you need to make your calling

1376
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: card song, like the song that's going to define you.

1377
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: So after that, it was kind of like I mean

1378
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 1: not to oversimplifying it, but like the phone ringing off

1379
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 1: the hook, you know, so I could kind of choose

1380
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 1: my about and I did a lot of things that

1381
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 1: we're also filling the space to like that that maybe

1382
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 1: not weren't necessarily the biggest projects in the world, but

1383
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it varies from not always the same,

1384
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:20,360
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I'd write the whole song and I'd send

1385
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 1: it out and people would want to cut it. And

1386
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 1: sometimes I'd go in a room and we wouldn't have anything,

1387
01:16:25,439 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: and we would write the song from scratch, or we

1388
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 1: would get an idea and then we would bring another

1389
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:36,840
Speaker 1: writer in. So every every situation is different, right, Um,

1390
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:39,719
Speaker 1: But ultimately I think that was like one one of

1391
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 1: a big lesson I learned from working with Kanye was

1392
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to like I'd always want to be overprepared.

1393
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 1: I was. I had a lot of anxiety about going

1394
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: in a room and not being able to like deliver,

1395
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,719
Speaker 1: you know, So I'd always I liked that having something

1396
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 1: that was done and I could send it out. But

1397
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 1: I'd also challenged myself to go in there and like

1398
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,439
Speaker 1: walk on that tight rope and and just say, hey,

1399
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: we're here, we're in the room. Let's believe in ourselves

1400
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 1: and like see what happens. And and also just like

1401
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:13,480
Speaker 1: let it flow. That's also kind of my jazz background,

1402
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, where like it's your turn to solo, just

1403
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,519
Speaker 1: jump off the cliff and see what happens, you know.

1404
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:24,839
Speaker 1: And UM, I think that really served me well too,

1405
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:32,600
Speaker 1: have that kind of spontaneous, improvisational uh skill, um to

1406
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:36,400
Speaker 1: just go into rooms and and make something happen or

1407
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:41,599
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and have the confidence to just try

1408
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 1: things and and it's a really beautiful thing about like

1409
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, or it was hinting at before about collaboration,

1410
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:51,679
Speaker 1: you know, to like go and play something and think

1411
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 1: like maybe I shouldn't is there's people gonna like this,

1412
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: and to have someone like that's the ship man, like

1413
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,000
Speaker 1: that's the like you know, or you might get correct

1414
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 1: gets too, but it's fifty fifty or you know, like

1415
01:18:03,880 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 1: you so to answer your question, it was like all

1416
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,479
Speaker 1: of the above, you know, like every situation like kind

1417
01:18:11,479 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: of trying to always push myself and and put myself

1418
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 1: in a situation and just go for it, you know,

1419
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:23,000
Speaker 1: like try to succeed. Like a lot of times, what

1420
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:24,800
Speaker 1: would happen was I would have like one song that

1421
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: maybe like an artist would like and they had cut that,

1422
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 1: and then I'd come and work with them, and then

1423
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 1: he got any more, so I would just go maybe

1424
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,479
Speaker 1: while I was waiting for them, I would make three

1425
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:37,640
Speaker 1: new ideas, you know, and maybe one of them they

1426
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 1: be like, oh I really like that, and then we'd

1427
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,720
Speaker 1: work on it together. You know. So it's kind of

1428
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 1: like a like a just I think just ultimately like

1429
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:51,719
Speaker 1: having a creative practice that like everywhere you go wherever

1430
01:18:51,800 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: you are, what room you're in. If you're tired, if

1431
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:59,200
Speaker 1: you're hungry, if you're well arrested, if you're a little buzzed,

1432
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:02,800
Speaker 1: you go to work and you make the donuts. You know,

1433
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:05,639
Speaker 1: like you have a skill set, you have a craft,

1434
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 1: and you have like confidence to like be willing to fail,

1435
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 1: make a mistake, do something shitty, like you're definitely like, like,

1436
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: how many songs do you think of? Princes? Like he

1437
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,000
Speaker 1: wrote some of them are stinkers, you know, like we

1438
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 1: all here, you're only gonna hear. This is kind of

1439
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: a Virgil Ablow thing to like talking about in him

1440
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 1: and Virgil and Kanye is like practice, like so amazing.

1441
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: How like that they viewed creativity. Just try everything. The

1442
01:19:34,080 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 1: things that suck, no one's gonna remember. You get the

1443
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,120
Speaker 1: great things. People remember it, so they think that, oh

1444
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 1: this person just everything they do is great. It's not true.

1445
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: They just working like you know, so that was kind

1446
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:49,960
Speaker 1: of my life, you know, up to now, or at

1447
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 1: least before COVID, you know, just just just working. Okay,

1448
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 1: How do you see from being a songwriter in your

1449
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,760
Speaker 1: own studio to alter really being a producer, which was

1450
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: one of your earliest desires you're moving to New York for. Yeah,

1451
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 1: I mean I think it was a lot to do

1452
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:10,719
Speaker 1: with my the nature of like how I do music

1453
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:15,679
Speaker 1: kind of by ear, and recording just became the perfect

1454
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 1: outlet for that because I wasn't great at reading music.

1455
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 1: I wasn't great, I wasn't the best technical piano player.

1456
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: I wasn't like the best technical singer. But I could

1457
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 1: have a vision and I could bring it to life,

1458
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:36,600
Speaker 1: you know. And I think my producing and record and

1459
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 1: also I think that helped me like developing. And I'm

1460
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 1: kind of a bit of a late bloomer, you know.

1461
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,000
Speaker 1: Even as a kid, I was like really short, and

1462
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: I was about like five ft two till I was

1463
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 1: like sixteen years old, and then I grew like a

1464
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, ten inches in Germany, and you know, I

1465
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: moved to l A when I was like thirty, little

1466
01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: kind of late in the game in a way, you know,

1467
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 1: like I'm matured very gradually, but in a very steady way.

1468
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:11,000
Speaker 1: So I think that also helped me relate to trying

1469
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:14,200
Speaker 1: to pick out, like for an artist that I'm producing,

1470
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 1: try to help them find what their vision is or

1471
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 1: at least push them towards articulating that and then saying,

1472
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: let's go after that. Like let's also like figuring out

1473
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 1: how to get that out and develop that because I

1474
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,040
Speaker 1: had to learn how to develop myself, you know. So

1475
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: I think that's one of my strengths for sure as

1476
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 1: a producer, is is identifying the vision that they have

1477
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 1: and helping them realize that, you know, and maybe throwing

1478
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:46,680
Speaker 1: in my two cents along the way or you know,

1479
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 1: or maybe a dollar or two, but um ultimately helping

1480
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:56,519
Speaker 1: them fulfill what's true to their heart and like the

1481
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 1: most vulnerable place that they can find expo using that

1482
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: and and bringing that into the light. You talked about inspiration,

1483
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's from amateurs. So when you're writing songs

1484
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 1: by yourself, are you saying, Okay, I started ten am

1485
01:22:19,320 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 1: and I gotta finish the song, or do you say

1486
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:25,240
Speaker 1: I get a certain inspiration I figured, you know everything

1487
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,320
Speaker 1: that I understand. Working in the studio is different. But

1488
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:32,640
Speaker 1: when you're working alone, what's your process? How do you

1489
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:34,600
Speaker 1: get the song done? And how do you finish it?

1490
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,280
Speaker 1: You know? I mean, I mean one version of it

1491
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:41,680
Speaker 1: is like just sitting at the piano and and getting inspired.

1492
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:43,640
Speaker 1: That kind of comes back to my jazz practice and

1493
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,240
Speaker 1: even just how I've been doing music my whole life

1494
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 1: since I was like five years old, just sitting down

1495
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 1: at the piano and just making a sound and then

1496
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 1: then letting the craft take over, you know, find finding

1497
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:02,080
Speaker 1: one kernel of thing that's great. Like even also could

1498
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:06,240
Speaker 1: be like a melody or a phrase, you know, like

1499
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 1: marrying a phrase with a melody and saying, oh, there's

1500
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,479
Speaker 1: something good about that, and and uh, you know, I

1501
01:23:13,479 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 1: think the hardest part is just maybe as a writer

1502
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:18,080
Speaker 1: you can resonate like this resonates with you is like

1503
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: just getting something down on the page, right, You just

1504
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 1: gotta start writing, and then you go back and you

1505
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: work on it. You say, let me take this out,

1506
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 1: let me let me rearrange this thought. Oh you know

1507
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:32,840
Speaker 1: what this this could be more clear. But it always

1508
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: starts with with an idea, you know, like in your letters,

1509
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: you're you kind of have a theme. Sometimes. I love

1510
01:23:38,479 --> 01:23:41,519
Speaker 1: when you write about like your personal experiences, Like you

1511
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,120
Speaker 1: have all these different modes you go into, like you're

1512
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:48,280
Speaker 1: kind of like decoding the bigger picture of tech and

1513
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 1: the the it's all about society, and then then you'll

1514
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 1: go into this really personal thing you're talking about your health,

1515
01:23:54,160 --> 01:23:56,720
Speaker 1: you're talking about your family, you talk about skiing, you

1516
01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:00,000
Speaker 1: talk about your passions. But I imagine it's a similar

1517
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 1: thing for you, like how to decide what you want

1518
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 1: to write about? You just have a thought and you

1519
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: just start writing about it. Or how is it for you? Yeah? Absolutely,

1520
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: Although the best stuff is when you're in a mood

1521
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: and there's inspiration of the inspiration always comes when you're

1522
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: doing something else, you're standing in the shower or you're

1523
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 1: reading whatever. But I find the opposite then most no

1524
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:28,679
Speaker 1: one does it my way. I throw it all down

1525
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 1: and I find if I edited, I funk it up.

1526
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:33,759
Speaker 1: I've been doing it for a long time. That's interesting.

1527
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 1: You know, we could go down the path of me

1528
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:40,000
Speaker 1: but staying with you here, you know, the game has

1529
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 1: changed certainly from the pre Internet era. In the CD era,

1530
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:48,400
Speaker 1: they would cut out the single if the single was successful,

1531
01:24:48,439 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 1: you had to buy the album to get the single.

1532
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 1: Let's just say twelve tracks on an album. A lot

1533
01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:58,000
Speaker 1: of songwriters made a lot of money by having not

1534
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 1: hit songs on those albums. That generally speaking, that is

1535
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 1: not true. So as a songwriter, I know certain songwriters

1536
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:11,040
Speaker 1: I've spoken with, household name songwriters. They'll say, you know, yeah,

1537
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: if someone do, if they get inspired, it's a friend.

1538
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: But otherwise they evaluate, they say, you know, I'm not

1539
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:18,400
Speaker 1: gonna put this much effort into something that's going to

1540
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 1: go nowhere. In addition, there's only twenty four hours in

1541
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:24,280
Speaker 1: a day. You also have to sleep, So how do

1542
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 1: you deal with that opportunity cost? I'm sure you have

1543
01:25:28,120 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 1: more people looking for you than you can actually work.

1544
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:33,719
Speaker 1: And you say, well, you know there's some economic element,

1545
01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:36,519
Speaker 1: just creative elements, how do you pick and choose? I mean,

1546
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 1: that's an interesting that's an interesting point. And I'll have

1547
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 1: to say, I think you just kind of following your

1548
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: analysis of the music industry help kind of like inform

1549
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: a kind of a different side of like, um, I

1550
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 1: may be wrong, and I think there's so many nuanced

1551
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:59,639
Speaker 1: parts of it, but yeah, the value of publishing seems

1552
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 1: to have on down. And you talk write a lot

1553
01:26:02,240 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 1: about like catalog sales and everything and how you and

1554
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:07,920
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes like I feel like most of

1555
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:10,120
Speaker 1: the time i'm reading about it, you're you're kind of saying, oh,

1556
01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,799
Speaker 1: don't sell your catalog. That is your that's your baby,

1557
01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:16,599
Speaker 1: that's your nest egg. Don't give that up. Maybe that's

1558
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 1: true if you're if you are uh Bob Dylan, or

1559
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:27,400
Speaker 1: you are um who we talk about in the news

1560
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:33,320
Speaker 1: right now, hard of Gold Neil Young, Right, But you know,

1561
01:26:33,360 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 1: a lot a lot of my stuff. It's like I

1562
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,600
Speaker 1: got a five here, I got a ten there, I

1563
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,160
Speaker 1: got aft there, I gotta and I already gave up

1564
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:41,920
Speaker 1: these songs. I'm not even singing on them. So like

1565
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,000
Speaker 1: a lot of it is kind of like, man, the

1566
01:26:44,120 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 1: valuations of all these catalogs, not to mention the tax benefits,

1567
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:49,360
Speaker 1: and like, you know what happens if you die and

1568
01:26:49,400 --> 01:26:52,760
Speaker 1: your heirrors inherit your catalog, I RS comes to take

1569
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:56,719
Speaker 1: that tax bill. Guess what, Now you're selling under duress.

1570
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,479
Speaker 1: You gotta sell that catalog fast to pay the taxes.

1571
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:03,679
Speaker 1: So there are all kinds of arguments for selling the catalog.

1572
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 1: And now personally, I'm moving into I want to own

1573
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 1: my master I want to be the artist. Now I

1574
01:27:10,200 --> 01:27:13,840
Speaker 1: get an artist royalty from Spotify. So talk about like

1575
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: the game changing, And I think that's that's really interesting.

1576
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:22,120
Speaker 1: Following your your assessment of the history of the music industry,

1577
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 1: we are in a much different place now and the

1578
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 1: opportunity to own your own master published shit. I at

1579
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:35,799
Speaker 1: least I think it's smart to like start exploring those areas.

1580
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, the game has changed, at the same time

1581
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:43,799
Speaker 1: the game hasn't changed. And you write about this too.

1582
01:27:44,160 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 1: Just do something fucking great. If you do something amazing,

1583
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 1: good things are gonna happen and things are gonna start

1584
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:52,360
Speaker 1: flowing your way. You need the flow to start going

1585
01:27:52,439 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: your way, and you can't bitch and wind your way there.

1586
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:57,759
Speaker 1: You can't complain about Spotify, as you point out about

1587
01:27:57,960 --> 01:28:02,799
Speaker 1: doing that, Like, just be great, worry about being great first.

1588
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 1: Then we'll talk about all the other stuff. But you're

1589
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:09,360
Speaker 1: not gonna like, yeah, I guess all these guys. That's

1590
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:11,680
Speaker 1: interesting point you make about like how you could have

1591
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:15,600
Speaker 1: these album cuts even that, like you're gonna be the

1592
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,599
Speaker 1: album cut guy your whole life. Like maybe you make

1593
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 1: maybe you maybe you do. But like I think, at

1594
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:24,439
Speaker 1: the end of the day, you gotta strive to be

1595
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:27,680
Speaker 1: great and do your best. That doesn't mean compete with

1596
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 1: someone else. Maybe you look at someone else as inspiration

1597
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 1: to get up for it, but at the end of

1598
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 1: the day, you gotta do your best. You gotta do

1599
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 1: your best and in a way that's its own reward, right, Okay,

1600
01:28:43,280 --> 01:28:47,519
Speaker 1: let's go into some of the specifics here. Uh so

1601
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 1: you get hooked up with the Rolling Stones, what was that? Like?

1602
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 1: That was amazing. I get a voicemail on my phone

1603
01:28:53,280 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 1: one day, says Hallo jf it's make calling call me back,

1604
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,679
Speaker 1: and I'm like, holy shit, I just got like a

1605
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:07,360
Speaker 1: a voicemail from Mick Jagger and just like the coolest, nonchalant,

1606
01:29:07,680 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 1: still curious fun guys. And what's what's funny was at

1607
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:14,879
Speaker 1: the last minute, because they're gonna do the record in France.

1608
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:17,800
Speaker 1: The last minute, he said, you know, maybe we were talking.

1609
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:19,760
Speaker 1: He was sending me his demos, he was talking, we

1610
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 1: were talking on the phone. That's like what the real

1611
01:29:24,040 --> 01:29:26,600
Speaker 1: definition of cool is, right, These guys aren't trying to

1612
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:29,800
Speaker 1: impress anyone. They're not trying to like they'd just like

1613
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:35,800
Speaker 1: just super cool dudes. At the last minute he says,

1614
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:40,679
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe we should just send you stuff

1615
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 1: back ah from France and you can like mess with it.

1616
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,280
Speaker 1: And something in me was like I was like, now

1617
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:53,599
Speaker 1: ain't gonna work like that. You gotta you gotta fly

1618
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 1: me out there. I gotta be in the room with you. Like,

1619
01:29:55,560 --> 01:29:59,559
Speaker 1: you know, okay, okay, okay. Then I got there and

1620
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:04,760
Speaker 1: it soon became obvious that he had not told the

1621
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: other members of the band that I was gonna be there.

1622
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:11,120
Speaker 1: And there, you know, Keith Pitchers is looking at me

1623
01:30:11,160 --> 01:30:13,679
Speaker 1: like who's this guy? Uh, and they kind of put

1624
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 1: me in this other room and waiting for them to say,

1625
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:20,360
Speaker 1: I brought my good friend Emil Haney with me, so

1626
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,599
Speaker 1: i'd kind of have like a wingman to too, we're

1627
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 1: gonna me. I don't know if you're familar with Emil

1628
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: Haney produced Lana del Rey's album and he's just like

1629
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:32,040
Speaker 1: an amazing producer and artist in his own right. Um.

1630
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: Finally he's like, what the funk are we doing here?

1631
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Let's just go down there and just bust in their room.

1632
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:38,840
Speaker 1: And he's like from New York, you know, he's like

1633
01:30:38,880 --> 01:30:41,519
Speaker 1: he's not sucking around. So we go down there. Were

1634
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:45,400
Speaker 1: just like walking the room, you know, um and uh,

1635
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: and they're kind of like, oh, like okay, you just

1636
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:53,600
Speaker 1: kind of walked in and very quickly like they're just

1637
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:58,200
Speaker 1: cool dudes, you know. Like I had this bottle of

1638
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:00,960
Speaker 1: beer in my hand and I'm looking around for a

1639
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 1: bottle opener and Keith kind of comes over and hands

1640
01:31:04,560 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 1: me a bottle opener and we're having a beer. Also

1641
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:10,760
Speaker 1: part of the story is like his his guitar tech

1642
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:16,160
Speaker 1: who I forget his names, amazing guy. Um. He was

1643
01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: kind of behind the scenes saying no, he's gonna love you.

1644
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,519
Speaker 1: He's he's cool man like he's gonna you know. It's

1645
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:22,519
Speaker 1: like because he could see what was going on, there's

1646
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 1: a lot of kind of internal politics. And then and

1647
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:28,760
Speaker 1: the end we we um. They cut the song with

1648
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 1: um Um, who's their long time producer, had a blue

1649
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,720
Speaker 1: note and how Don was um you know, Don was

1650
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 1: was there kind of like overseeing the whole thing, and

1651
01:31:39,360 --> 01:31:42,519
Speaker 1: and we kind of took the tracks that they tracked

1652
01:31:42,520 --> 01:31:44,559
Speaker 1: and instead of like you know, I think in the

1653
01:31:44,560 --> 01:31:46,840
Speaker 1: old days, like all the Rolling Stones records that we

1654
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 1: you know, not the steel Wheels kinda era, but like

1655
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:52,600
Speaker 1: the old Stone stuff, they sit there and do just

1656
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 1: like seven D takes until they got like the right

1657
01:31:55,560 --> 01:32:00,000
Speaker 1: one right. Well, So this was for their fiftieth anniversary

1658
01:32:00,520 --> 01:32:03,640
Speaker 1: ger thing, and they were gonna Keith was gonna have

1659
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 1: a song and Mick was gonna have a song. My

1660
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:08,080
Speaker 1: master plan was I wanted to get them back together

1661
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,320
Speaker 1: and do a song together. And I had this idea

1662
01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:13,120
Speaker 1: I was gonna have Keith playing piano and Mick was

1663
01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:15,120
Speaker 1: gonna sing, and they were gonna do the song together.

1664
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 1: But there's because they were had a separate thing about

1665
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:20,200
Speaker 1: you know. To me, the magic is the glimmer twins,

1666
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:23,720
Speaker 1: you know, like you want Keith and Mick together doing it.

1667
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,800
Speaker 1: In the end, it was not to be, but we

1668
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 1: took the tracks and then we kind of formatted it

1669
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:33,559
Speaker 1: and it's that song, um gloom and Doom and gloom.

1670
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: It's a great record. Came out amazing, and even a

1671
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 1: Meal like programmed this drumbeat like Charlie Watts sating there's something.

1672
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 1: They're looking at him with his jaw open, like what

1673
01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:45,960
Speaker 1: is he doing? And then we actually tempo mapped Charlie's

1674
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,080
Speaker 1: performance and then layered a Meals stuff underneath it. It

1675
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: was a really cool process. And then even afterwards Keith

1676
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,720
Speaker 1: was like, hey, will you do my song too? You know,

1677
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:57,320
Speaker 1: so it was just too good to be true, you know,

1678
01:32:57,520 --> 01:32:59,680
Speaker 1: just such an awesome experience, and even like you know,

1679
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:02,000
Speaker 1: and afterwards I could call them like can I come

1680
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:05,160
Speaker 1: to the show. They're always just so cool and just

1681
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 1: such a such a role model for me to see

1682
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:11,240
Speaker 1: how curious they were. But see them gathering around the

1683
01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:14,519
Speaker 1: mic doing the Morocca tracks and saying like what should

1684
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,240
Speaker 1: we have? Oh yeah, I like that, man. I like that.

1685
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:19,240
Speaker 1: Like they were still like eighteen years old, you know,

1686
01:33:19,360 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 1: like making music, and that was really inspiring to see.

1687
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:25,160
Speaker 1: I guess how I want to be, like getting older

1688
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:28,599
Speaker 1: and older and still have that curiosity and excitement about

1689
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:32,360
Speaker 1: creating something. It was such an awesome experience. Okay, so

1690
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:36,360
Speaker 1: you're working with Bruno Mars. Was he even called Bruno

1691
01:33:36,479 --> 01:33:39,520
Speaker 1: Mars at that point and tell us to the evolution

1692
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,880
Speaker 1: of bringing him to market and such success? Yeah, well

1693
01:33:43,160 --> 01:33:46,120
Speaker 1: he was Bruno right, and he was his remember he

1694
01:33:46,240 --> 01:33:50,080
Speaker 1: was an Elvis impersonator at the age of five, known

1695
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 1: as Bruno Um. And then one day we started working

1696
01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:58,639
Speaker 1: on songs. We're making these songs and Steve Lindsay's critiquing them.

1697
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 1: We kind of learned that, like went through that process.

1698
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:04,840
Speaker 1: We're playing online poker, We're just like doing things. And

1699
01:34:04,880 --> 01:34:07,360
Speaker 1: then after a while I was just like, God, this

1700
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:08,880
Speaker 1: guy is just such a he has so I'm kind

1701
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:11,640
Speaker 1: of starting to turn gray in the studio, you know,

1702
01:34:12,200 --> 01:34:13,400
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, we gotta get this

1703
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:16,480
Speaker 1: kid back on the stage because he is a performer.

1704
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:21,439
Speaker 1: He's just a god given, god gifted, uh performer. So

1705
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:24,479
Speaker 1: we made this little cover band with me and him

1706
01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:26,640
Speaker 1: and his brother who was a police officer at the

1707
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:31,120
Speaker 1: time playing who still plays drums in his band um.

1708
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:33,040
Speaker 1: And we used to play cover gigs in the valley

1709
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,320
Speaker 1: that we just found a bar there's hire us and

1710
01:34:35,360 --> 01:34:38,760
Speaker 1: we do these cover gigs. And you know, he got

1711
01:34:38,760 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 1: signed to Motown, but they wanted him to be this

1712
01:34:42,320 --> 01:34:46,519
Speaker 1: like urban like Omarion or Floyd or one of these

1713
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:52,080
Speaker 1: guys like and it was you know, he had this

1714
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:56,759
Speaker 1: other It was amazing. What was amazing about Bruno was strong.

1715
01:34:56,960 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: Songwriting was not his talent when he him He's an

1716
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:06,920
Speaker 1: amazing just raw performer, right, and to see him become

1717
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 1: this amazing songwriter is just one of the things that

1718
01:35:13,920 --> 01:35:18,600
Speaker 1: makes him so dangerous because now he can create his

1719
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:21,680
Speaker 1: own music. And he kind of, you know, I think

1720
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:23,360
Speaker 1: he kind of retreated and I went and did my

1721
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 1: Kanye thing and he was kind of like, dude, what

1722
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 1: am I supposed to do? Say, well, just keep doing,

1723
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:31,200
Speaker 1: just keep doing your band, keep doing stuff, and then

1724
01:35:31,600 --> 01:35:33,400
Speaker 1: he kind of retreated. A little bit into kind of

1725
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:37,320
Speaker 1: being a songwriter. And then I think, uh, you know,

1726
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:40,560
Speaker 1: he hooked up with this former manager was an n R.

1727
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 1: Brandon Creed, and he started doing this more more BEATLESZ

1728
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 1: pop three chord aesthetic rather than an R and B

1729
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:53,320
Speaker 1: kind of richer harmonic aesthetic. But I Want to be

1730
01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:57,280
Speaker 1: a billion is so freaking bad. I mean, how are

1731
01:35:57,280 --> 01:35:59,560
Speaker 1: you gonna how are you gonna beat that? Like he

1732
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:09,839
Speaker 1: just nailed the whole advertising level, like perfect songwriting combined

1733
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:12,519
Speaker 1: with his talent and his available his ability to kind

1734
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: of form, do the videos, do the stage, show, create

1735
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:18,800
Speaker 1: his band, And if you've ever been to one of

1736
01:36:18,840 --> 01:36:20,559
Speaker 1: his shows, it's like being in an earth Wind and

1737
01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:23,519
Speaker 1: Fire concert. He's got this band, he's got horn players,

1738
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:28,800
Speaker 1: they're dancing on stage, there's young, old, black, white, brown, yellow,

1739
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:30,960
Speaker 1: purple people in the audience. It is just like a

1740
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,639
Speaker 1: total and just a joyous fast And you know, when

1741
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:38,160
Speaker 1: we did Uptown Funt, it made me realize, you know,

1742
01:36:38,320 --> 01:36:40,760
Speaker 1: after kind of working with Kanye or having like I

1743
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: did a project under this moniker Billy Craven that was

1744
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:46,040
Speaker 1: kind of a war protest. I remember you were writing that.

1745
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:48,200
Speaker 1: You write a lot about that where's the protest music

1746
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:50,479
Speaker 1: of our generation? And I did this project kind of

1747
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:54,519
Speaker 1: about the Iraq war um call born on the fourth

1748
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:59,519
Speaker 1: of July, and Uh, I had a strong sense of

1749
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:02,000
Speaker 1: I want music to have a strong message, to have

1750
01:37:02,160 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 1: that ability to bring up difficult issues and discuss them.

1751
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 1: And I realized when we did Uptown Funk, seeing it

1752
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:14,400
Speaker 1: bring all these different people together who can just from

1753
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:18,120
Speaker 1: all different walks of life enjoy one thing. That's also

1754
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:20,920
Speaker 1: a superpower of music doesn't have to be the most

1755
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 1: deep and uh polarizing or or or political statement. It

1756
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:34,880
Speaker 1: can bring people together. It's an amazing art form pop music,

1757
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 1: you know, to be able to do that, to unite people.

1758
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: And stand next to someone who may have a completely

1759
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:43,559
Speaker 1: different viewpoint than you and you're dancing to the same song,

1760
01:37:43,640 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 1: you find something in common that you are both human.

1761
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:49,680
Speaker 1: You both like this song, you both like dancing, you

1762
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:54,000
Speaker 1: both like having a good time, you know. Like so,

1763
01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:58,240
Speaker 1: I think Bruno just embodies this like being able to

1764
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 1: bring joy into people's lives. I think that's an incredible

1765
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:08,640
Speaker 1: service that artists like him provide to humanity. Um and

1766
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 1: that's kind of been his journey. I was driving actually

1767
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:14,760
Speaker 1: when I was doing uh, driving to the studio when

1768
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 1: I was working for Kanye, I think I was just

1769
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:19,040
Speaker 1: writing trying with a broken heart too. I was writing

1770
01:38:19,040 --> 01:38:20,720
Speaker 1: the chorus to that just in in the car on

1771
01:38:20,760 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 1: the way back. You know, I had done the verses

1772
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:25,400
Speaker 1: the day before. When I was driving to the studio

1773
01:38:25,560 --> 01:38:28,479
Speaker 1: thinking about the chorus, I turned on the radio and

1774
01:38:28,520 --> 01:38:31,320
Speaker 1: I heard that Bob song and Nothing on You and

1775
01:38:31,360 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, Ship, that's that's Bruno. I was

1776
01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,599
Speaker 1: listening to song a little a little longer. Oh my god,

1777
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:40,120
Speaker 1: this is a hit song. Bruno is gonna be huge.

1778
01:38:40,439 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 1: And that was that was it was. It was. I

1779
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 1: don't know what happened to Bob, God bless him, but

1780
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:47,480
Speaker 1: like Bruno just took off. You remember that was Billionaire

1781
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:50,760
Speaker 1: and Nothing on You was featuring Bruno mars right. It

1782
01:38:50,920 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 1: was at Travis what's his name McCoy, Traviy McCoy record

1783
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 1: and a B O B record. But Bruno was the

1784
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:01,240
Speaker 1: star of those records, and people figure that out real fast,

1785
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:06,120
Speaker 1: you know. So just an amazing talent, amazing story, amazing

1786
01:39:06,160 --> 01:39:10,960
Speaker 1: guy just came from nothing, you know, and worked his way. Uh,

1787
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:14,120
Speaker 1: just a raw talent and just just just made his

1788
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:17,719
Speaker 1: way to the top and is just always challenging himself,

1789
01:39:18,040 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 1: playing the Purple Rain guitar solo at the Grammys. You know,

1790
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,000
Speaker 1: like there's just nothing this guy can't do. Okay, tell

1791
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:26,360
Speaker 1: us the story of working with Mark Ronson and ultimately

1792
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:29,719
Speaker 1: creating Uptown Funk. Yeah. Well, you know. The the little

1793
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:34,759
Speaker 1: known story about that is after after working on Bruno's

1794
01:39:34,760 --> 01:39:38,519
Speaker 1: second album and Mark and I became good friends, he

1795
01:39:40,720 --> 01:39:45,640
Speaker 1: asked he'd produce his album with him, and I was

1796
01:39:45,680 --> 01:39:48,599
Speaker 1: just like, wow, okay, what a dream. And for some

1797
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 1: reason I got this, you know, I get passionate about stuff,

1798
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:53,760
Speaker 1: Bob I started when I started dreaming, you know, and

1799
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:57,080
Speaker 1: like uh, I said, you know what we gotta do

1800
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:00,679
Speaker 1: is we gotta drive through the South. We're gonna drive.

1801
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:05,280
Speaker 1: There's a book called Mumbo Jumbo by an author named

1802
01:40:05,320 --> 01:40:08,040
Speaker 1: Ishmael Reid that I had to read in college about

1803
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:13,680
Speaker 1: this dis mysterious disease that spreads up the Mississippi River

1804
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:19,680
Speaker 1: and people start having convulsions and dancing. Well, he was

1805
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:22,080
Speaker 1: talking about the spread of black music and rock and

1806
01:40:22,160 --> 01:40:27,200
Speaker 1: roll and how it infected everyone and changed everything, made

1807
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 1: people want to move their hips. So I got this

1808
01:40:30,240 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 1: idea that we're gonna find the next Shaka Khan and

1809
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,479
Speaker 1: or you know amazing. We're at the Franklin and we're

1810
01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:42,479
Speaker 1: gonna go to New Orleans and we're gonna drive up

1811
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:47,679
Speaker 1: the Mississippi River and stop in all these towns and

1812
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:52,160
Speaker 1: and uh hold auditions. And he looked at me like

1813
01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 1: I was crazy, but he said, okay, let's do it.

1814
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:58,519
Speaker 1: And we filmed it and we had this experience and

1815
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,240
Speaker 1: that's you know, not really so much came out of

1816
01:41:01,280 --> 01:41:04,040
Speaker 1: that necessarily like that came into view. I mean, uptown

1817
01:41:04,080 --> 01:41:07,519
Speaker 1: funt just overshadowed everything, right, But what did happen is

1818
01:41:07,520 --> 01:41:10,600
Speaker 1: when we stopped in Memphis, we went to Sun Studios,

1819
01:41:11,120 --> 01:41:15,080
Speaker 1: and we went to Royal Studios, and we ended up

1820
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:20,120
Speaker 1: coming back to Royal Studios and finishing the record. Um

1821
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 1: and it put this maybe that did seep into the

1822
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:31,040
Speaker 1: uptown funk aesthetic or you know this this very like

1823
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:39,639
Speaker 1: hallowed ground of al green and black music and this

1824
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:45,040
Speaker 1: mecca of like kind of like the quintessential I shouldn't

1825
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:48,479
Speaker 1: say quintessential, but one of the very important uh tent

1826
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 1: poles of American pop music. And we involved um this

1827
01:41:55,520 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 1: author um uh oh ship. His name is Escaping me, right,

1828
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:10,880
Speaker 1: now um uh hold on, let me let me real quick.

1829
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 1: You guys can edit this part together, so it sounds

1830
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:18,360
Speaker 1: like I have an actual good memory. Um. Michael Shabon

1831
01:42:19,320 --> 01:42:22,719
Speaker 1: uh you know, got him involved to write these lyrics

1832
01:42:23,479 --> 01:42:25,960
Speaker 1: and and then we would take the lyrics. That was

1833
01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 1: an interesting process you're asking me about, Like the process.

1834
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 1: That was the first time I had like, okay, taking

1835
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:33,559
Speaker 1: someone's lyrics and then I write the melody of it.

1836
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:38,160
Speaker 1: And if you go back and listen to uh um,

1837
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:39,960
Speaker 1: I mean he wrote a lot of the lyrics of

1838
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:42,280
Speaker 1: that album and he kind of we've this narrative of

1839
01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:44,120
Speaker 1: like kind of in the we kind of want to

1840
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:47,599
Speaker 1: do this kind of steely Dan aesthetic where it's like

1841
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:54,080
Speaker 1: these stories about these guys in the sixties and seventies

1842
01:42:54,880 --> 01:43:00,200
Speaker 1: out there, like I'll learned to play the saxophone. Oh

1843
01:43:00,360 --> 01:43:03,880
Speaker 1: I played just what I drink Scotch whiskey? Oh not

1844
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 1: long then done behind the wheel. You know, it was like,

1845
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:10,519
Speaker 1: what the what what is this story? It's so like

1846
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:15,200
Speaker 1: interesting kind of dark, seedy lifestyle of these jazzy it's

1847
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 1: kind of this extension of beat nick stuff with this sleeks,

1848
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: sleeker kind of aesthetical like you know, like there's a

1849
01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:24,080
Speaker 1: song Heavy and Rolling on Uptown Special that's like kind

1850
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,759
Speaker 1: of in that vein and Michael Shabon, We've this story

1851
01:43:26,800 --> 01:43:30,240
Speaker 1: about these two guys who are kind of grifters and

1852
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:32,360
Speaker 1: they're gonna pull off this highest kind of like dirty

1853
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:35,439
Speaker 1: rotten scoundrels, and they meet this woman who gets involved,

1854
01:43:35,479 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 1: and their plan is to kind of do it and

1855
01:43:37,000 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 1: then leave her in the dust, but she they end

1856
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 1: up both falling in love with her separately, and then

1857
01:43:42,840 --> 01:43:45,240
Speaker 1: she ends up screwing both of them over. And the

1858
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:47,719
Speaker 1: whole albums was this whole narrative. In this whole album,

1859
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:51,599
Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder played the harmonica on this track and played

1860
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:54,080
Speaker 1: my melody and like there's all these like little gems

1861
01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 1: moments that as an album, it's just like amazing updown funk,

1862
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 1: just like blew everything away, right, But that was just

1863
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:04,400
Speaker 1: an awesome experience to work with Mark and just see

1864
01:44:05,160 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 1: what an expert producer he is and the tones he

1865
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 1: would get, the way he would record drums, the way

1866
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:18,160
Speaker 1: he would introduce collaborators, kind of a different version of Kanye, right,

1867
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:22,800
Speaker 1: like bringing these collaborators in and ultimately having your own

1868
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 1: vision but being able to involve others and use others.

1869
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:30,479
Speaker 1: So he's just one of my favorite people in the

1870
01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:33,480
Speaker 1: whole world. And I got so much out of that experience.

1871
01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 1: And let's be very specific. Tell us how you created

1872
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,280
Speaker 1: the track up Tom Funk. Yeah, So that one was like, okay, well,

1873
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:48,639
Speaker 1: we gotta get Bruno on the record. So we went

1874
01:44:48,640 --> 01:44:51,920
Speaker 1: over to his studio in Hollywood and we just started

1875
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 1: jamming and Bruno's on the drums and marks like on

1876
01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:59,080
Speaker 1: the guitar, and I'm on the keyboard and we just

1877
01:44:59,080 --> 01:45:04,080
Speaker 1: started jamming and it had like the first verse like

1878
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:06,839
Speaker 1: that night we did that this ship that I school

1879
01:45:07,040 --> 01:45:11,840
Speaker 1: Michelle five for that white gun boom boom, like this

1880
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:17,680
Speaker 1: funk jam and it was just this jammy thing. But

1881
01:45:18,439 --> 01:45:22,799
Speaker 1: everyone knew this was like something special, like for some reason,

1882
01:45:23,479 --> 01:45:26,640
Speaker 1: this was in it a super special thing that's like

1883
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:29,599
Speaker 1: so rough. And we'd even play like the rough thing

1884
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 1: for like radio programmers and they just be like, oh

1885
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: my god, this is gonna be a giant song, you

1886
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:38,600
Speaker 1: know and that. But the problem was we got to

1887
01:45:38,640 --> 01:45:41,840
Speaker 1: the chorus and it was like this is the We

1888
01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 1: had the amazing first thirty seconds of this record. But

1889
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:48,720
Speaker 1: then it's like, Okay, how do we deliver on the

1890
01:45:48,800 --> 01:45:52,680
Speaker 1: promise of how good this feels without it just going downhill.

1891
01:45:53,280 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 1: You know, it needs to just get better and better.

1892
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 1: That was a super challenge. So then we continue to

1893
01:45:58,200 --> 01:46:00,479
Speaker 1: work on that song for like about a year, you know,

1894
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 1: we need this, and then Bruno came up with the

1895
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:06,360
Speaker 1: dope nope, no, dope, dope, do it needs this? You know,

1896
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: like kind of like a you know, all these little

1897
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:12,360
Speaker 1: details that were like, like we were talking about earlier,

1898
01:46:12,400 --> 01:46:15,479
Speaker 1: just make this thing bulletproof, you know. Like so we

1899
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:17,640
Speaker 1: had the first thirty seconds, but then it took like

1900
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:19,639
Speaker 1: nine i think nine or ten months to really get

1901
01:46:19,680 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 1: to the end, and then we had all these different

1902
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:23,719
Speaker 1: things and then then we just started over and said okay.

1903
01:46:23,960 --> 01:46:26,559
Speaker 1: We got together in a room again in London in

1904
01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:29,840
Speaker 1: Mark Studio and just played the song live and said, okay,

1905
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:32,360
Speaker 1: if we were gonna play this live, what would need

1906
01:46:32,400 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 1: to happen? And then we kind of sorted at all

1907
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:39,240
Speaker 1: the details and then it came together and then dear Lord,

1908
01:46:39,320 --> 01:46:42,000
Speaker 1: it was released and it was like the biggest song

1909
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:45,800
Speaker 1: of all time, and especially like uptown funk, like funk

1910
01:46:45,920 --> 01:46:49,120
Speaker 1: was kind of a dirty word, like people like that

1911
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:53,479
Speaker 1: was not an uphealing thing. But just what a magical moment.

1912
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:56,360
Speaker 1: And I have like a background in funk music, and

1913
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,439
Speaker 1: and uh you know did all that and Wallis and

1914
01:46:59,479 --> 01:47:01,439
Speaker 1: all the people I played with Lettuce. You know, it's

1915
01:47:01,479 --> 01:47:04,680
Speaker 1: like just amazing how that came together and then how

1916
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:10,360
Speaker 1: it just like it just infected the world. And um,

1917
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:13,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's the story. It was like thirty seconds

1918
01:47:13,320 --> 01:47:15,800
Speaker 1: of magic. Okay, but you knew you had something with

1919
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:19,040
Speaker 1: the thirty seconds when it was finished, did you know

1920
01:47:19,120 --> 01:47:21,519
Speaker 1: this was going straight to the top? I did not,

1921
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:24,960
Speaker 1: I will be honest, and I did not think it

1922
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:27,439
Speaker 1: was gonna be I thought it had a chance to

1923
01:47:27,479 --> 01:47:30,519
Speaker 1: be really successful because with like Bruno delivering that and

1924
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 1: the records good, I thought it was good. But I

1925
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,519
Speaker 1: don't think anyone knew it was gonna be I mean,

1926
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:39,639
Speaker 1: it was like twelve weeks at number one or something.

1927
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 1: It was like the longest running number one song at

1928
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:45,519
Speaker 1: the time in the ATS era or the two post

1929
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, twenty one century. So yeah, that was just insane.

1930
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:54,040
Speaker 1: What a what a special magical moment? Okay. Taylor Swift,

1931
01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift story. I got a call Taylor

1932
01:47:57,120 --> 01:48:00,280
Speaker 1: Swift was to work with you. Great came her with

1933
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:05,439
Speaker 1: her guitar to my little studio in Venice, played me

1934
01:48:05,479 --> 01:48:11,479
Speaker 1: the song top to bottom. I said, okay, great, I

1935
01:48:11,520 --> 01:48:15,599
Speaker 1: made a little beat on my MPC and some uh.

1936
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:20,880
Speaker 1: It was a song Holy Ground and Lucky Ones, two

1937
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:23,799
Speaker 1: beautiful songs. That Lucky One song is just so so gorgeous.

1938
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:26,880
Speaker 1: But such a pro just came in. I said, okay,

1939
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 1: made my Beata said, now can you play the guitar separately? Yep,

1940
01:48:30,240 --> 01:48:33,240
Speaker 1: did that? Okay, now cut the vocal boom boom, and

1941
01:48:33,320 --> 01:48:38,840
Speaker 1: I kind of did my thing, and then um came

1942
01:48:38,880 --> 01:48:44,400
Speaker 1: together incredibly incredibly fast, and yeah, what a what a

1943
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:47,240
Speaker 1: force of nature she is, right like, she's just like,

1944
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean, through all I know, you guys have your

1945
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:52,000
Speaker 1: history everyone, she's gone her ups and downs, especially in

1946
01:48:52,040 --> 01:48:57,400
Speaker 1: my connection to Kanye and all that. But another person

1947
01:48:57,600 --> 01:49:02,200
Speaker 1: who just decided to be great, stick to herself, not

1948
01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 1: take no for an answer. Not I mean her parents.

1949
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:07,960
Speaker 1: She may have come from this, like what are her

1950
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:10,559
Speaker 1: dad like an investment banker or something no one bought her.

1951
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 1: There's plenty of people who are children of investment bankers.

1952
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 1: They don't become Taylor Swift, you know. So I think

1953
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:22,360
Speaker 1: it's amazing, like what she's accomplished, and um, you gotta

1954
01:49:22,400 --> 01:49:24,280
Speaker 1: give it up. Gotta give it up to her for

1955
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:28,920
Speaker 1: all her success and and and sticking to like being

1956
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:32,840
Speaker 1: a songwriter kind of in the old old style, right,

1957
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:36,880
Speaker 1: like having talking about her life and her experiences and

1958
01:49:36,920 --> 01:49:41,000
Speaker 1: then and growing changing, going to max getting out of

1959
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:43,960
Speaker 1: country music, which is a fucking terrible place for a

1960
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:48,120
Speaker 1: female artist to be. I mean, uh, I always talking

1961
01:49:48,160 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 1: about being good people and all this stuff, but they're

1962
01:49:50,920 --> 01:49:53,360
Speaker 1: the worst snakes you'll ever find in the music business

1963
01:49:53,479 --> 01:49:58,439
Speaker 1: up there in Nashville. Uh. I speak from experience too. Um.

1964
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,000
Speaker 1: I have an artist in country we Cam who we

1965
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:03,519
Speaker 1: had like a number one country song, this beautiful song,

1966
01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:06,840
Speaker 1: Burning House. Got to work with Doug Morris on that song.

1967
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:10,120
Speaker 1: He signed her and I had the privilege of kind

1968
01:50:10,160 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 1: of sitting in Doug's office in New York and just

1969
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:16,200
Speaker 1: talking about stuff, and he said, let me play this

1970
01:50:16,280 --> 01:50:18,760
Speaker 1: song for you. Okay, alright, let's do it. What do

1971
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:21,439
Speaker 1: you think of that? I don't know, Doug, I don't know.

1972
01:50:21,479 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 1: You know, if this song is really special? You know what?

1973
01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:27,160
Speaker 1: You're right? When they had r C Records, I had

1974
01:50:27,240 --> 01:50:29,760
Speaker 1: just had my first country artist signed with him. He said,

1975
01:50:30,200 --> 01:50:32,840
Speaker 1: would you consider being the president of our CIA Records

1976
01:50:32,840 --> 01:50:36,360
Speaker 1: Country because like I was like, oh my god, Like

1977
01:50:36,439 --> 01:50:39,080
Speaker 1: this guy was just such a like a old school

1978
01:50:39,479 --> 01:50:41,559
Speaker 1: and he worked that record, by the way, he did

1979
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:44,200
Speaker 1: research on it. He's the one that like broke burning House,

1980
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:47,559
Speaker 1: you know, and like that's another beautiful one. That's just

1981
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,920
Speaker 1: a special song. And always stuff I did throughout my

1982
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:53,320
Speaker 1: career is like that was the height of like E

1983
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:55,680
Speaker 1: D M bangers, right, and then we come in the

1984
01:50:55,720 --> 01:51:03,439
Speaker 1: summertime with like a odd bar slow moody song number one,

1985
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:10,160
Speaker 1: you know. But um uh, just to just wrap up

1986
01:51:10,200 --> 01:51:20,519
Speaker 1: how horrible country music is for women, it's just like, man, like, uh,

1987
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:25,200
Speaker 1: the world has just progressed so far from being trapped

1988
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 1: in this country radio format. Maybe we literally had our

1989
01:51:28,400 --> 01:51:33,360
Speaker 1: records sabotaged internally because over some stuff. But then they

1990
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:36,320
Speaker 1: keep coming around talking about oh, good people this, you're

1991
01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:38,960
Speaker 1: good people. If you don't play along, like that's just

1992
01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:40,720
Speaker 1: not the place for me. Man. I'm probably gonna make

1993
01:51:40,720 --> 01:51:42,840
Speaker 1: some enemies up there in Nashville, but that's fine. I

1994
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 1: don't have no reason to be there because and and

1995
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:48,160
Speaker 1: that's not against like all the people in Nashville, but

1996
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:52,240
Speaker 1: I think specifically for women and like their way behind

1997
01:51:52,520 --> 01:52:00,760
Speaker 1: in like just like the ethos of like where the

1998
01:52:00,800 --> 01:52:05,960
Speaker 1: world is at, Like hey, like I don't know, I

1999
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:07,920
Speaker 1: don't know where I'm going with this. I just had

2000
01:52:07,960 --> 01:52:11,960
Speaker 1: a horrible experience. Okay, here he styles member of One Direction.

2001
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:15,680
Speaker 1: They're selling stadiums, go solo. How do you get the

2002
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:19,439
Speaker 1: gig and what's the experience like cutting an album with Harry? Yeah,

2003
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:22,439
Speaker 1: Harry reached out to me. I think it was probably

2004
01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:24,679
Speaker 1: right after I won the Producer of the Year award,

2005
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:28,280
Speaker 1: and he's like the biggest artist in the world basically

2006
01:52:28,920 --> 01:52:31,519
Speaker 1: and wants the best producer in the world, which, you

2007
01:52:31,560 --> 01:52:35,759
Speaker 1: know whatever advertising that is when the Grammy for Perduser

2008
01:52:35,800 --> 01:52:37,680
Speaker 1: of the Year. I guess that's a pretty good qualification.

2009
01:52:38,520 --> 01:52:40,559
Speaker 1: So he reached out. And that's kind of at that

2010
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 1: time period I mentioned earlier, when I was kind of

2011
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:47,360
Speaker 1: had my son. I wasn't really sure how active I

2012
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:49,920
Speaker 1: could be, you know, in like the first year or

2013
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,800
Speaker 1: two of my son's life. So I said to him,

2014
01:52:52,840 --> 01:52:54,160
Speaker 1: I said, what do you want to do? And he said, well,

2015
01:52:54,160 --> 01:52:56,479
Speaker 1: he played me some references and it was kind of

2016
01:52:56,520 --> 01:52:58,640
Speaker 1: like he wants like a real rock band, you know.

2017
01:52:59,200 --> 01:53:04,080
Speaker 1: So I I had signed a couple of producers at

2018
01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:06,439
Speaker 1: the time, one of Taylor Tyler Johnson, who's like a

2019
01:53:06,840 --> 01:53:09,160
Speaker 1: who did the Watermelon Sugar number one record with him

2020
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:11,000
Speaker 1: and he is like an amazing producer in his own right,

2021
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:13,800
Speaker 1: who also did the CAM project with me. Brought Cam

2022
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:17,679
Speaker 1: to me and um, I said, well, you know what,

2023
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:20,360
Speaker 1: I cannot just full disclosure, I'm not going to be

2024
01:53:20,400 --> 01:53:21,720
Speaker 1: able to go in there and be like in the

2025
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:24,599
Speaker 1: trenches with you every day because I'm a new father

2026
01:53:24,800 --> 01:53:26,920
Speaker 1: and I just can't be. I have a have to

2027
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 1: set some boundaries for myself. But I have these guys.

2028
01:53:29,520 --> 01:53:31,320
Speaker 1: I can get them to go in there and we'll

2029
01:53:31,360 --> 01:53:35,240
Speaker 1: find some band surround you with them, and you know,

2030
01:53:35,360 --> 01:53:37,400
Speaker 1: if that's cool with you, you can try it out

2031
01:53:37,800 --> 01:53:40,840
Speaker 1: and see how it works. So he said, okay, cool.

2032
01:53:40,840 --> 01:53:44,680
Speaker 1: He trusted me another just like you know, totally magnanimous,

2033
01:53:44,720 --> 01:53:48,680
Speaker 1: like class act and just like spreads kind of just

2034
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 1: the groovy vibes everywhere he goes. So I mean funny story.

2035
01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:57,960
Speaker 1: His current musical director and guitarist who played drums and

2036
01:53:58,080 --> 01:54:02,559
Speaker 1: guitar on the entire first album with my engineer's roommate

2037
01:54:02,680 --> 01:54:04,240
Speaker 1: who have We tried a couple of guitars. I said,

2038
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 1: we need to get you your Keith Richards. You know,

2039
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:09,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna find a guitar player. You want to make

2040
01:54:09,040 --> 01:54:11,799
Speaker 1: like rock music and be like an indie band. Basically,

2041
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:15,360
Speaker 1: let's get that guy for you. Tried a couple of

2042
01:54:15,360 --> 01:54:18,520
Speaker 1: people that didn't really work out, and then my engineer

2043
01:54:18,680 --> 01:54:22,000
Speaker 1: Ryan nowsh She says, well, I could get Mitch over here,

2044
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:24,639
Speaker 1: but we'll have to see if he can get off work.

2045
01:54:24,960 --> 01:54:28,000
Speaker 1: It's where he's a dishwasher and a pizza shop. So

2046
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:31,040
Speaker 1: he got off of work, came in, they fell in love,

2047
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:33,920
Speaker 1: he did the whole album, and he's on tour with

2048
01:54:34,000 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 1: him now married the drummer and they have a kid

2049
01:54:35,960 --> 01:54:40,400
Speaker 1: together on tour. So just another amazing story of like

2050
01:54:40,880 --> 01:54:43,200
Speaker 1: just people making it in l A. You know, like

2051
01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 1: Mitch Rowland, you know, incredibly talented and just the sweetest

2052
01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:50,640
Speaker 1: guy who came in there and just became Harry's like

2053
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:54,240
Speaker 1: right hand man, and it was super fun like making

2054
01:54:54,280 --> 01:54:56,000
Speaker 1: that album with him. It was also like a period

2055
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,520
Speaker 1: for me where I shifted gears to like realizing I

2056
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:02,920
Speaker 1: don't have to do everything, you know, I can have

2057
01:55:03,040 --> 01:55:06,440
Speaker 1: a team around me or bring people into the project

2058
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:11,800
Speaker 1: and I can guide it. I can give my tips,

2059
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:14,240
Speaker 1: my influence. They would go in and work in the studio.

2060
01:55:14,240 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 1: I'd come in and say, Okay, this is good, take

2061
01:55:19,400 --> 01:55:21,720
Speaker 1: this part out, move this over. Now, that's your core,

2062
01:55:22,160 --> 01:55:24,040
Speaker 1: that's your verse. Now we need to make a better chorus.

2063
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of editorialize it and really produce it

2064
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:31,240
Speaker 1: right in the classic sense. Um. And that's how that

2065
01:55:31,320 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 1: album came together. I'm so proud of that album. I

2066
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:37,200
Speaker 1: think it really set Harry on his path to being

2067
01:55:37,280 --> 01:55:41,440
Speaker 1: a respected solo artist and separate him from the whole

2068
01:55:42,080 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: uh one direction association affiliation, which is nothing wrong with that,

2069
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:50,720
Speaker 1: but he needed to become Harry Styles, you know. And

2070
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:53,360
Speaker 1: that's with the album's name, Harry Styles. I mean that

2071
01:55:53,520 --> 01:55:58,320
Speaker 1: that record uh uh in the Hallway or something that

2072
01:55:58,440 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 1: something something about the six the second record in the Hallway. UM.

2073
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:08,320
Speaker 1: Just beautiful how that came together. Um, And so happy

2074
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:10,720
Speaker 1: for him and seeing like the show and another guy

2075
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:14,080
Speaker 1: who just brings that, you know, good vibe and good

2076
01:56:14,160 --> 01:56:17,880
Speaker 1: energy when he does his shows. Um. But it was

2077
01:56:17,920 --> 01:56:19,880
Speaker 1: a cool experience for me to see like, Okay, I

2078
01:56:19,920 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 1: can do a project kind of from afar and budget

2079
01:56:23,240 --> 01:56:26,480
Speaker 1: my time and have boundaries, and that was kind of

2080
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:28,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of like to kind of bring it full

2081
01:56:28,120 --> 01:56:29,880
Speaker 1: circle to like you're saying, what's up with Big Sir,

2082
01:56:31,480 --> 01:56:34,640
Speaker 1: kind of a time of saying, like setting new boundaries

2083
01:56:34,680 --> 01:56:38,120
Speaker 1: for myself to focus more on my own projects. Two

2084
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:43,960
Speaker 1: raise the bar as far as how far we can

2085
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 1: push stuff musically and provide a place for artists to

2086
01:56:48,440 --> 01:56:50,640
Speaker 1: kind of go and get away from Elie. I'm just

2087
01:56:50,640 --> 01:56:53,720
Speaker 1: wrapping up this Portugal demand album that I've been producing

2088
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:56,240
Speaker 1: for the last two years and through the Pandemic. They're

2089
01:56:56,280 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 1: an amazing band. We have an amazing album that's about

2090
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:02,960
Speaker 1: to um drop. The first single is gonna drop in February,

2091
01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:07,040
Speaker 1: I think February or um maybe that's not as many things,

2092
01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:11,440
Speaker 1: but um well did did the single with Ryan tetter

2093
01:57:12,120 --> 01:57:14,680
Speaker 1: Um and it's a bomb. I'm not a bomb, it's

2094
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:21,160
Speaker 1: a missile. Uh. But like we did a little we

2095
01:57:21,240 --> 01:57:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up that record of this place Sonic

2096
01:57:23,400 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 1: Ranch outside of El Paso. I don't know if you've

2097
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:28,920
Speaker 1: ever heard of the studio, and it was you know,

2098
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:32,680
Speaker 1: John Gourley, the singer and leader of the band. We

2099
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:34,080
Speaker 1: did a little bit of in New York and he

2100
01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:36,240
Speaker 1: was kind of talking they live in Portland. It's kind

2101
01:57:36,240 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 1: of talking about like getting out of l A, you know.

2102
01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:44,640
Speaker 1: And I noticed when you or outside of l A

2103
01:57:44,760 --> 01:57:48,080
Speaker 1: kind of get that noise out of your head, all

2104
01:57:48,080 --> 01:57:52,280
Speaker 1: the influence walking outside, even just feeling the the gravity

2105
01:57:52,360 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 1: of the industry kind of pulling you towards trying to

2106
01:57:58,240 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 1: do something that a n R will like or the

2107
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:06,880
Speaker 1: label will like. It's so special to get out of

2108
01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:10,760
Speaker 1: that atmosphere and get back to yourself, get back to

2109
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:15,640
Speaker 1: what is inside you and bring that out. So that's

2110
01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:17,680
Speaker 1: kind of the big sur thing, but kind of like

2111
01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:23,640
Speaker 1: setting these boundaries between me and my mentor Kanye West,

2112
01:58:23,840 --> 01:58:26,040
Speaker 1: me and the labels, me and like what I think

2113
01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:28,839
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be delivering to the label and creating

2114
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:31,880
Speaker 1: an atmosphere where we can make special music again. We

2115
01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:38,120
Speaker 1: can make music that is from the heart, you know, authentic,

2116
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:45,960
Speaker 1: highest level, like free from any kind of commercial expectation. Um.

2117
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:47,840
Speaker 1: And we're about to do it. We're about to like

2118
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:49,920
Speaker 1: make the next wave of like you're going to see

2119
01:58:49,960 --> 01:58:56,440
Speaker 1: like a wave of of super creative musical like jazzy.

2120
01:58:56,600 --> 01:58:59,240
Speaker 1: All the kids are into jazz, and I started going

2121
01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:01,480
Speaker 1: into the sessions now, like with like Travis Scott and

2122
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:05,000
Speaker 1: like guys like this, like oh god, I don't have

2123
01:59:05,040 --> 01:59:07,080
Speaker 1: any beats. I'm gonna go in there. I'm gonna like

2124
01:59:07,120 --> 01:59:09,240
Speaker 1: play something's gonna be like, oh man, this guy's washed up.

2125
01:59:09,280 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 1: So I just said, well, I have all these like

2126
01:59:11,120 --> 01:59:13,760
Speaker 1: voice notes of me playing piano ideas I kind of do.

2127
01:59:13,880 --> 01:59:16,040
Speaker 1: You're asking me my process for sometimes I just play piano.

2128
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:17,600
Speaker 1: I'll just do a bunch of voice notes and then

2129
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 1: I'll kind of work on that. Just playing that, I

2130
01:59:20,040 --> 01:59:21,880
Speaker 1: feel like people in the eyes in the room, their

2131
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:27,480
Speaker 1: eyes light up, like just like the piano just plan ideas.

2132
01:59:27,600 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 1: You know, we're getting back to this organic um musical,

2133
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:37,320
Speaker 1: stripped down intimate time of music. That's going to be

2134
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:39,920
Speaker 1: really exciting. Like Donda, right, I don't know how much

2135
01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:42,960
Speaker 1: you've listened to Donda, but it's there. There's no drums,

2136
01:59:43,240 --> 01:59:47,400
Speaker 1: it's just all this Like that's a very interesting phenomena, right,

2137
01:59:47,440 --> 01:59:49,840
Speaker 1: Like post COVID, like no one could go to the club,

2138
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:53,000
Speaker 1: so no one needed to put drums on their music anymore.

2139
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:54,400
Speaker 1: You just want to listen to it in your house.

2140
01:59:54,920 --> 01:59:59,520
Speaker 1: So that's like a really interesting shift that I'm really

2141
01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:01,560
Speaker 1: excited about to just kind of get back to my

2142
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:09,360
Speaker 1: musical roots of jazz and aspire to the highest musical levels.

2143
02:00:09,400 --> 02:00:12,320
Speaker 1: Because it's funny, like you listen to like a film soundtrack,

2144
02:00:12,960 --> 02:00:16,960
Speaker 1: the music can be a film score. Rather, the music

2145
02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:20,840
Speaker 1: can be so sophisticated in arcane and and dissonant, and

2146
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:24,760
Speaker 1: it works. People can process that. Yet in pop music

2147
02:00:25,880 --> 02:00:28,960
Speaker 1: for good reason, it needs to be simpler. But it's

2148
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:31,000
Speaker 1: one thing I noticed when I was working with Kanye

2149
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:33,520
Speaker 1: versus like, you know, a lot of hip hop artists

2150
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:35,400
Speaker 1: i'd work with, I'd have to really dumb it down.

2151
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:40,440
Speaker 1: I'd have to really particularly purposefully only play about like

2152
02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:43,720
Speaker 1: five or ten percent of what I was capable of. Kanye,

2153
02:00:43,800 --> 02:00:46,560
Speaker 1: it was like, bring it on, Like, let's go Michael

2154
02:00:46,640 --> 02:00:49,200
Speaker 1: Jackson on this, Quincy Jones, you know, like wants to

2155
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:52,840
Speaker 1: hear all that music and Earth Winn and Fire, you know,

2156
02:00:52,960 --> 02:00:56,680
Speaker 1: David Foster like this this high musical level. I'm really

2157
02:00:56,720 --> 02:00:59,240
Speaker 1: excited to bring that back into the fold, you know,

2158
02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:02,240
Speaker 1: and and the word front. You stated earlier that you

2159
02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:05,400
Speaker 1: want to own your own masters. You want to certainly

2160
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:10,000
Speaker 1: own your own publishing. Do you see yourself being the

2161
02:01:10,080 --> 02:01:14,520
Speaker 1: act in the future, And also you've achieved so much

2162
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:19,200
Speaker 1: in any specific goals, dreams still in the future, I

2163
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,680
Speaker 1: mean definitely being the act is the next goal, you know,

2164
02:01:23,120 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 1: and not for any um like egotistical reasons necessarily, but

2165
02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:32,360
Speaker 1: maybe egotistical in the right sense of like so nice

2166
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 1: to have your own project and create and own it

2167
02:01:35,240 --> 02:01:39,360
Speaker 1: and own it just from an artistic standpoint, you know,

2168
02:01:39,480 --> 02:01:41,880
Speaker 1: and control and everything I've learned and being around and

2169
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:45,000
Speaker 1: being able to work with all these amazing artists, seeing

2170
02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:49,000
Speaker 1: the process from beginning to end, make the video, design,

2171
02:01:49,080 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 1: the cover, it really be your expression because that's what

2172
02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:56,200
Speaker 1: music was for me from the beginning, right. It's my

2173
02:01:56,240 --> 02:02:01,080
Speaker 1: way to process the world, process my emotions. So it's

2174
02:02:01,160 --> 02:02:04,680
Speaker 1: kind of my gift to myself to like say, hey,

2175
02:02:04,720 --> 02:02:08,120
Speaker 1: you know what, maybe do one for them, one for me,

2176
02:02:08,200 --> 02:02:10,400
Speaker 1: or maybe just do all for me and be up there,

2177
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:15,160
Speaker 1: but collaborate on the same level where I have an

2178
02:02:15,280 --> 02:02:20,120
Speaker 1: artistic uh ownership and license of it. Not to mention

2179
02:02:20,160 --> 02:02:23,160
Speaker 1: the financial benefit of doing that right and building your

2180
02:02:23,160 --> 02:02:27,920
Speaker 1: own future, um and being smart about that part of it.

2181
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:30,800
Speaker 1: With all these things that Kanye and Prince were fighting

2182
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:34,360
Speaker 1: for against, like the you know, signing shitty deals with labels,

2183
02:02:34,400 --> 02:02:37,280
Speaker 1: that's like any other person in any other business would

2184
02:02:37,280 --> 02:02:38,840
Speaker 1: look at those contracts and be like, what the funk

2185
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:40,720
Speaker 1: is this? You know, like tech people will be like,

2186
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:42,720
Speaker 1: I think you may have written about that once said

2187
02:02:42,880 --> 02:02:46,200
Speaker 1: talking about at least it should be fifty fifty. I mean,

2188
02:02:46,240 --> 02:02:48,960
Speaker 1: I'm making the entire product here, and not only that,

2189
02:02:49,040 --> 02:02:51,640
Speaker 1: like just doing it in my studio, you know, but

2190
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 1: uh well, not only should be fifty fifty, you should

2191
02:02:54,760 --> 02:03:00,480
Speaker 1: own the copyright absolutely absolutely, you know, especially solve A

2192
02:03:00,560 --> 02:03:03,480
Speaker 1: costs are paid for. Why did they get the only

2193
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:06,440
Speaker 1: album ad? Infinite? Absolutely, And you know a lot of

2194
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: guys are making strides to that end, you know, like

2195
02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:12,360
Speaker 1: Logic I think has an amazing deal with def Cham

2196
02:03:12,360 --> 02:03:15,160
Speaker 1: And you know you got to take the initiative and

2197
02:03:15,160 --> 02:03:21,400
Speaker 1: and put that intention into your practice. So definitely, Like,

2198
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:24,960
Speaker 1: especially after all the success after catalog sales and you

2199
02:03:25,080 --> 02:03:27,320
Speaker 1: got this money in the bank, I think I would

2200
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: be pretty dumb not to pursue that path. And not

2201
02:03:31,400 --> 02:03:34,160
Speaker 1: only that, like it's going to be very artistically rewarding

2202
02:03:34,240 --> 02:03:38,200
Speaker 1: to you know, drop my own music and make my

2203
02:03:38,240 --> 02:03:41,840
Speaker 1: own videos and and then participate on a on a

2204
02:03:41,880 --> 02:03:44,400
Speaker 1: little equal footing with like people like I think I'm

2205
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:46,520
Speaker 1: a little behind the curve to be honest, as far

2206
02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:51,040
Speaker 1: as my peers like Mark Ronson, Calvin Harris, Benny Blanco, Diplo,

2207
02:03:51,280 --> 02:03:54,480
Speaker 1: all these producers who shifted into being artists. And Benny

2208
02:03:54,560 --> 02:03:55,960
Speaker 1: just said to me. I was asked him, like, how

2209
02:03:55,960 --> 02:03:58,640
Speaker 1: do you do? He's well, I just do the same

2210
02:03:58,640 --> 02:04:00,840
Speaker 1: thing I did, except now it says my name on

2211
02:04:00,880 --> 02:04:02,760
Speaker 1: the record. I was like, you know, I come from

2212
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:06,160
Speaker 1: such an old school aesthetic where I'm like, I thought,

2213
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:07,640
Speaker 1: if I'm the artist, i gotta get up there and

2214
02:04:07,680 --> 02:04:10,960
Speaker 1: like singing dance or something. It's like, no, It's like

2215
02:04:11,320 --> 02:04:13,440
Speaker 1: it just says your name on the record. It's still

2216
02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:16,800
Speaker 1: your record. I mean goes back to Georgio Moroder or

2217
02:04:17,160 --> 02:04:19,840
Speaker 1: like all these guys. I think it's just a mentality

2218
02:04:19,880 --> 02:04:24,320
Speaker 1: that also like kind of put myself behind the artist.

2219
02:04:25,160 --> 02:04:28,240
Speaker 1: So it's definitely that's kind of my next challenge, and

2220
02:04:28,360 --> 02:04:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about kind of, you know, take ownership

2221
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,840
Speaker 1: and have the confidence and the uh, you know, go

2222
02:04:34,920 --> 02:04:37,520
Speaker 1: on the adventure of like putting you gotta be guess what,

2223
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:39,680
Speaker 1: it's not. It's not easy to be on the artist either.

2224
02:04:39,720 --> 02:04:41,680
Speaker 1: It's nice to be able to sit in the studio

2225
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:43,920
Speaker 1: and make the record and get the royalty checks while

2226
02:04:43,960 --> 02:04:47,040
Speaker 1: they go out on tour, do all the press, do

2227
02:04:47,240 --> 02:04:49,520
Speaker 1: everything that be famous and all that ship. That's not

2228
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 1: all it's cracked up to be. So, you know, with

2229
02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:57,240
Speaker 1: a green of salt, but it's definitely on my agenda

2230
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:05,880
Speaker 1: to bring take back the ownership creatively and financially of

2231
02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 1: my work. Well, Jeff, this has been great. I mean

2232
02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:10,080
Speaker 1: I could go on for a couple of hours. I'm

2233
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:13,560
Speaker 1: certainly more interested in digging down into the creative process

2234
02:05:13,600 --> 02:05:16,520
Speaker 1: which we got into. But this is something that the

2235
02:05:16,640 --> 02:05:20,240
Speaker 1: suits really don't understand. They want to control you, but

2236
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:23,760
Speaker 1: you know, you say, doing the preparation to be able

2237
02:05:23,800 --> 02:05:26,200
Speaker 1: to then do something great. I don't want to go

2238
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:29,040
Speaker 1: off on a tangent myself, but I just want to

2239
02:05:29,080 --> 02:05:31,280
Speaker 1: thank you for all the time you put in giving

2240
02:05:31,320 --> 02:05:34,280
Speaker 1: my audience all this insight. Hey, Bob, thank you so much,

2241
02:05:34,280 --> 02:05:37,280
Speaker 1: and thanks thanks for all you do too, you know,

2242
02:05:37,360 --> 02:05:40,880
Speaker 1: writing about this stuff, and you're kind of the version

2243
02:05:40,960 --> 02:05:44,560
Speaker 1: of that and yourself, you're not beholden to editors and

2244
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:46,280
Speaker 1: and you really tell it like it is. So it's

2245
02:05:46,280 --> 02:05:49,080
Speaker 1: been such a pleasure being on your program and uh

2246
02:05:49,240 --> 02:05:52,600
Speaker 1: and connecting with you, thank you. Until next time. This

2247
02:05:52,680 --> 02:05:53,760
Speaker 1: is Bob left sex