1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: All right, we're scrapping the cute stuff and cutting straight 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: to the chase. I'm Dessa. This is deeply human. Today 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about drugs and we're already like five and 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: a half seconds in. Let's go hit it, James. Could 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 1: we speed it up a little. I've just I've just 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: got like an insane amount of stuff to get to 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: in this episode. Great, thank you. Hey, come on, man, 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: don't speed me. You know that always makes me dizzy, 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: and you know it, okay. I work as a touring 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: musician where it's not considered unprofessional to drink on the job. 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 1: In fact, taking a slug of whiskey on stage often 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: elicits a round of applause. This business is full of fascinating, 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: brilliant weirdos, and intoxicants are easy to get and sometimes 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: hard to avoid. Alexis Stevenson, an author friend of mine, 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: once told me I'm not a writer, I just drink 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: a lot about it, which I immediately cribbed for a 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: song lyric. Sub instants, use and abuse is sort of 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: baked into the culture. And that's true at the indie 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: level and for the A listers. To quote the late 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: great Robin Williams, cocaine is God's way of saying that 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: you are making too much money. Even being so surrounded 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: by it, there is still something that's sort of paradoxical 23 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: about drugs to me, not just the many hazards of abuse, 24 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: but the very idea of drugs. Isn't every organism supposed 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: to be out here fighting for survival. Wouldn't getting messed 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: up slower reflexes and make us worse a hunting or 27 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: escaping whoever is hunting us? Why would we choose to 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: regularly impair ourselves? And even if you don't drink or smoke, odsar, 29 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: you probably had the occasional cup of coffee or tea. 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: Caffeine is the most commonly used psychoactive drug in the world, 31 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: So the question of the day why do we use intoxics? 32 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: My name was Marikaniac. I am a post doctoral research 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: or at the University of Salford near Manchester, and I 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: study primates and how they have adapted to eating different foods. 35 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: Primates includes us, right, yes, that's right, we are premates. 36 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: It turns out that people primates have a particular genetic 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: advantage when it comes to digesting alcohol a k A 38 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: ethanol Marika says we may have first developed a special 39 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: interest for alcohol when we transitioned from being tree dwelling 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: creatures to a more terrestrial lifestyle. When we started living 41 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: on the ground, we were more likely to come across 42 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: fallen fruit. When fruit becomes overripe and has a lot 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: of sugar in it, what tends to happen is that 44 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 1: yeasts get in there, and yeast will start to eat 45 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: the sugars, and the end product of that is ethanol, 46 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: a substance that smells really strongly, right, so it could 47 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: be almost like an advertisement. It's like this this odor plume. 48 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: It's like, there's sugar here, Eat me. And we have 49 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: a particular genetic advantage that allows us to process that ethanol, 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: meaning we can potentially eat more energy rich fruit. There's 51 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: this mutation that humans have, and what's interesting about this 52 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: mutation is that it makes our ethanol metabolism really really efficient, 53 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: like forty times more efficient. Early hominids may have been 54 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: attracted to boozy stuff because it was a reliable source 55 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: of energy. Genetic evidence implies this mutation may have surfaced 56 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: ten million years ago, though it could be much longer too, 57 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: and it's not only primates who are interested in this fruity, 58 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: boozy business. The big story, the most famous story, is 59 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: that elephants go for these fermented marilla fruits. And it's 60 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: a story that's so widespread, like it's brought up in 61 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: these pursures for Safari's. There's a famous liqueur that's made 62 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: out of marilla fruits. It's called Amarilla. Amarula is a 63 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: lot like Bailey's. I have toured South Africa, I have 64 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: headed over ice and it is awesome. I have all 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: heard the stories of elephants totally lit up on fermented 66 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: marula fruit, stumbling around and making a mess of themselves 67 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: like a thirty ton bachelor party with tusks. But humans 68 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: want to see is that elephants want to become intoxicated. 69 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: They want to get not the sugar, but they want 70 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: to get the side effects. And it's like this intentionality aspect. 71 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: It's really really difficult. But how do you prove that 72 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: an animal is trying to get faded and not just 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: give food. So there's one to study with um something 74 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: called an i I. It's a it's a type of 75 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: lemur from Meta Gascar. They're they're so cool looking and 76 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: they're really cute um that well, it's in the eye 77 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: of the beholder. I think I think they're cute. Some 78 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: people don't agree. Wait, hold on Google Google search. They 79 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: have very large ears, and I don't know good about it. 80 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: I don't like that. But they have great tails, save 81 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: these grape bushy tails. And they have this amazing middle 82 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: finger that's all along and spin delete that they used 83 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: to tap on tree trunks with to find hollow parts. 84 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: And then when they found a hollow part, they gouge 85 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: it and usually there's some kind of big bug or 86 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 1: grub in there that they pull out with their spindle 87 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: a finger and then eat. But they don't just eat bugs. 88 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: They also eat a lot of nectar. And the nectar 89 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: that they consume you can tell there's ethanol in it 90 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: just from smelling it. When researchers gave eye eyes the 91 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: choice between an alcoholic mixture and just plain water, they 92 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: drank twice as much as the booze. And in a 93 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: study on elephants and alcohol, researchers allowed them to drink 94 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: from a boozy trough then took detailed notes on their behavior. 95 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: The things that they wrote down were like swaying and 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: increased vocalizations and increased aggression, which it's like, are you 97 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: looking for those things because that's what humans do? Or 98 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, is that really how the intoxication manifests? Why 99 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: the animals only have access to alcohol when they come 100 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: across naturally fermenting sugars or I guess research teams who 101 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: are willing to fill up a trough with booze? But 102 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: when did people start making alcohol on purpose? So? I 103 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: mean this is when we get into archaeological evidence, which 104 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: I think it's amazing. It's just so cool that you 105 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: can get residues from things that are thousands of years 106 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: old and and find evidence that you know, these were 107 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: used ferment beverages. So it goes back like about ten 108 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: thousand years that we have evidence of humans intentionally fermenting 109 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: foods and beverages. Fermentation practices might go back even further, 110 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: but that's hard to prove. Like if a pot was 111 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: made of wood, it might not survive millennia to be discovered. Okay, 112 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: let's transition now from prehistory to the bleeding edge of 113 00:06:49,200 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: scientific investigation. My name is David Nattimer, a psychiatrist. I'm 114 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: a psycho pharmacologist, so I studied effects of drugs on 115 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: the nervous system and the psychological consequences of those. David 116 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: is an internationally recognized veteran in his field. He spent 117 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: ten years advising the British government on how to create 118 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: a rational approach to drugs and how to minimize their harms, 119 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: and in the UK he's also known for controversy. He 120 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: was dismissed from his position after arguing that alcohol was 121 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: more harmful than a host of other drugs, and to 122 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: illustrate the relative dangers of taking the drug ecstasy, he 123 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: noted that it was no more dangerous than horseback riding. 124 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: I'd probably given more different classes of drugs to human 125 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: beings and possibly anyone ever in the history of the world. 126 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there's almost no class of drugs that I 127 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: haven't studied in humans, and humans use a bunch of drugs. 128 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: I mean almost no human doesn't take any doctor, tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco. 129 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: The God's population used and intoxicant or a brain changing 130 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: drive for some purpose, generally for benefits. I think, for example, 131 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: of the reason you might order a drink on a 132 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: first date. Alcohol makes you sociable, and it makes you 133 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: convivial and relaxed in companies enough to take away the 134 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: natural social anxiety we all have when we're meeting strangers 135 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: or go into parties. Stress is part of human and 136 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: animal experience. But then there's a second thing, which is novelty. 137 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the human brain is a is a novelty 138 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: seeking or you know, humans fascinated by new things, which 139 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: is why we are so successful in the world. Because 140 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: we've discovered new things, and we've remembered them, and we've 141 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: adapted them and reinforced them. There's something fundamentally appealing and 142 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: feeling our consciousness temporarily transformed into something less familiar than 143 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: our work day minds. Alcohol has been used in military purposes. 144 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: People ink before they fight because the alcohol dampens down 145 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: the fair response. The reason alcohol is so popular has 146 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 1: been so popular for so many thousands of years, is 147 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: a really good drug and gets in fast and gets 148 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: in the brain fast. You know, it's reliable in terms 149 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: of what you get. The effect is those related. My 150 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 1: very first taste of alcohol was probably a sip of 151 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: a relative's Manhattan cocktail. I was maybe eight. It was gross, 152 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: and I drank it anyway as a demonstration of my worldliness, 153 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: not too long afterwards, I would have sipped wine from 154 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: a heavy metal goblet held by a priest at Catholic mass. 155 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: Communal drinking is often a rite of passage socially and 156 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: sometimes religiously, And pretty soon I was a sneaky teenager 157 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: trying to weasel my way into the liquor cabinet at 158 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: my friend Katie's dad's house. We poured a little bit 159 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: from every bottle to create a seriously unfortunate slurry that include, 160 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: among other things, mid Doory whiskey and Bailey's Irish Cream. 161 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: So how does alcohol actually work? What is it doing 162 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: to us? David Nutt explains that it affects several pathways 163 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: in the brain, and it mimics a particular neurotransmitter called gabba, 164 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: and in humans and all out of primate wear, in fact, 165 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: pretty much all vertebrates, Gabba calms the brain. Another neurotransmitter 166 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: called glutamate has the opposite effect. It revs you up. 167 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: And both substances are always at play in your brain, 168 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: and it's almost like your your brain is walking the 169 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: tight rope. Too much glutamate and you become hyper excited, 170 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: and then you end up getting anxious or having a seizure, 171 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: and so gather protects you against that. But too much 172 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: gabba you fall asleep and then you get eaten with 173 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: a tiger. So you've got to get the balance right. 174 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: When people drink, it's like they're putting a thumb on 175 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: the scale, suppressing anxiety by blunt chemical force. But of 176 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: course there are diminishing returns. To share a little poem 177 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: from the writer and Total Boss Dorothy Parker, I like 178 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: to have a martini to at the very most, after three, 179 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm under the table. After four, I'm under my host. 180 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: Alcohol impairs judgment and cognition, and it can have life 181 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: destroying chronic consequences, disease and addiction among them. To quote F. 182 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: Scott Fitzgerald, First you take a drink, then the drink 183 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: takes a drink, Then the drink takes you. Our psycho pharmacologist, 184 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: David Nutt has been in the field of substance abuse 185 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: for almost forty years. I'll give you an example. One 186 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: of the recent patients of mine and his life was 187 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: to get up in the morning and he'd get a 188 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: bus up the road to the supermarket. He'd buy two 189 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: liters of strong cider, which is about two weeks worth 190 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: of alcohol and the just sit there all day and 191 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: drawing that, and he was destroying himself. And that's really 192 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: quite common people drinking alone and or they're using alcohol 193 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: then as an anesthetic to deaden the pain of their 194 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: lives rather than getting any benefit from it. People suffering 195 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: from addiction using toxic ins because it feels like they 196 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: have to. Some people cite the dangers of booze in 197 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: an argument for abstinence, but David is working on inventing 198 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: a new drug, an alternative to alcohol. Alcohol works on 199 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: multiple neurotransmitter systems. It's also a poison, you know. It 200 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: damages your deliver in your heart and your blovelesss. Accential 201 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 1: alcohol is like playing a piano with boxing glob zone. 202 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: David has a lab team working to design a chemical 203 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: substance that can imitate the gabba effective alcohol without wreaking 204 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: as much havoc on the rest of the system, like 205 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: a proper piodist that plays the song and then goes home. 206 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: It's not done yet, but in the meantime he's created 207 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: and bottled a prototype that can be concocted from herbs 208 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: already on the market as food stuffs. I met him 209 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: in a corner bar in West London to try something. 210 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: This is a botanical spirit that it's called Centia, and 211 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: it's made of herbs and a combination that will give 212 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: you an effect like a low dose of alcohol, like 213 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: maybe a glass of wine, without having anything like as 214 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: much impact on the rest of your body. Cheers, cheers. 215 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: The very first thing you notice about Sentia is the color. 216 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: It's a burgundy that very much appealed to the vestigial 217 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: Goth teenager in me. And it's a water based drink, 218 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: but to create some of that like alcohol heat on 219 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: the exhale. It has a little bit of pepper in 220 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: it Christmas ee, you know, has that sort of clothy 221 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: aspects of it. And then in a few moments, I 222 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: hope you'll feel that is beginning to have the other 223 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: effects of our not just the mouth effects, but also 224 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: the brain effect. I admit that I didn't really feel 225 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: a buzz after drinking Centia. I didn't go in very 226 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: hard though, because I was afraid to muck up my 227 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: interview with this very accomplished science guy. David hopes the 228 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: one his new compound hits the market, it might shake 229 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: up our whole drinking culture, which is a tall order 230 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: because that well runs really deep. We just so happened 231 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: to have a cultural historian at this little mixer to 232 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: tell us all about it. Angela McShane researches the history 233 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: of intoxicans and she has some insight on why we 234 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: use them and how they fit into our culture at large. 235 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: She recently curated an exhibit on drinking vessels at the 236 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: Victoria and Albert Museum from tusday to welcome h VNA 237 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: in London. The v N A, if you haven't had 238 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: a chance to visit, feels palatial, marble staircases, super high 239 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: ceilings and display cases that are the cleanest glass I 240 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: have ever seen. And I know glasses clear, but this 241 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: was like clearer on the air around it. It's just 242 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: it's just really so clean. Angela's display features rows of 243 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: drinking vessels from heavy metal chalices too delicate Venetian glass. 244 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: The idea of the drink display was here was much 245 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: more about what are the concepts behind drink in particular, 246 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: how did it connect sit with the society. Why did 247 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: people feel the need to drink, Why did they often 248 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: feel the need to drink too much? For tracks of 249 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: our history, drinking was not an off hour's indulgence. It 250 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: was a pre wreck for civic engagement. One of the 251 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: things about the putting this story is the objects together 252 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: was to indicate that drink was at the heart of 253 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: every part of the state. If you're going to demonstrate 254 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: your loyalty to your lord, whether that's an empress or 255 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: whether that's your landlord, the chances are you're going to 256 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: need to have a drink with them to prove that. 257 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: If you're going to go to church, then you're going 258 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: to drink quine. There's also a lying history of competitive 259 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: social drinking. Way before a beer pong, people were egging 260 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: each other on and ribbing one another, and real invested 261 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: in making sure everyone was keeping pace with one another. 262 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: There's a phrase called taking somebody down a peg or two. 263 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: It's actually a peg peg tankards. I didn't know the 264 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: word tankred before kicking it with Angela at the museum. 265 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: So if it's a new term to you, imagine like um, 266 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: like a heavy beer mug, but made out of metal 267 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: and with a hinged lid on top. When you open it, 268 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: what you can see inside is little pegs, light little 269 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: pins in the tankard down where the handle is, and 270 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: these mark off different measures of drink. And that's because 271 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: all of these objects are intended for sharing. And the 272 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: idea is that you measure off one peg, two pegs, 273 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: and you've agreed with the people that are drinking with 274 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: you how many pegs are going to drink. And often 275 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: it can turn into a competition, of course, because they 276 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: all say, let's see you drink three pegs in one go, 277 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: let's see drunk. So so then it becomes a game. 278 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: And so to take somebody down a peg or two 279 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: is literally to take them down the pegs in the tankerd. 280 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: This emphasis on drinking together and ensuring that everyone drinks 281 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: their share goes back thousands of years. The phrase in 282 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: Vino veritas is often credited to Plenty the Elder, a 283 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: Roman statesman, and it's quoted by Plato in his text Symposium. 284 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: You may have heard it translated to means something like 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: in wine there is truth. But what it means is 286 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: when you read it within the context of his book 287 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: The Symposium, that because people will say things they wouldn't 288 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: have said if they weren't drunk, everybody has to be 289 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: drunk together. And what happens in the room stays in 290 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: the room. Obviously, many people choose not to drink for 291 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: personal reasons, health concerns, or to abide by the mandates 292 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: of their faith. Alcohol, for example, is forbidden in Islam. Okay, 293 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: So in present day Iran, what is the what is 294 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: the legal position on intoxican irnly is quite easy. Everything 295 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: is illegal, even beyond intoxication. You know, your sexual relationship 296 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: before marriage are illegal. So every and everything you can 297 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: think about that is you know, you know, even fouly 298 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: cool it's is illegal. So I'm Mazzi Mazzi for Friends 299 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: and Enemies. I am an academic at the University of Exeter, 300 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: and I've been working on things related to how people 301 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: intoxicate themselves and why they do so in in the 302 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: Middleast in particular. Mazzi grew up in Iran, then moved 303 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: to Italy, but has returned to Iran for research trips. 304 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: He stresses that the laws on the books aren't the 305 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: laws on the boulevard. Total prohibition is not the reality 306 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: of life in Iran life under the law. It's it's 307 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: far ambiguous and ambivalent. Because everything is prohibited in a way, 308 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: everything is also allowed. So people really kind of do 309 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff. I mean, I've done things that 310 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do elsewhere. It's easier to order, you know, 311 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: a little bag of math or any other drugs in 312 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: Tehran than toward the pizza, and pizza is pretty easy 313 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: to order. The total ban on drugs and the serious 314 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: consequences for getting caught change the social aspect of consuming drugs. Drinkers, 315 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: for example, can't simply lounge and linger in a bar, 316 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: and they're more likely to drink spirits than beer or 317 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: wine because more potent drinks are easier to transport and 318 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: self for profit. The first twenty minutes of a drinking 319 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: session are very different from whatever else you've seen elsewhere. 320 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: So there is a person who is in charge of 321 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: pouring whatever alcoholic drink is available. They call him soggy 322 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: or you know, men or women could be so there 323 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: is also the name for dealer, by the way, and 324 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: he pours the drink for everyone, making sure that everyone drinks, 325 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: and people tend to drink in the good not spping 326 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: you know, Russian way, but jams. Everyone's drunk. Usually, prohibition 327 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: laws are so commonly broken by so many people that 328 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: it would be outlandish for authorities to even try to 329 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: penalize everyone who did so. The law enforcement do what 330 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: they do basically everywhere. They can choose when they need 331 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: to intervene, but Mazzi says they often do so with 332 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: an ulterior motive. In Iran and around the world, drug 333 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: violations provide the state with a pretext to intervene in 334 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: the lives of people who have been flagged as risky 335 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: or problematic for other reasons. Consider, for example, the seventeenth 336 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: century Ottoman crackdown on coffee houses. Coffee was an exotic 337 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: substance when it arrived, you know, in the Ottoman Empire. 338 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: The whole culture of coffee drinking started around this new substance, 339 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: you know. And because they were also displaces, the coffee houses, 340 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: where people would meet and you know, discuss, there were 341 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: places which were seen as you know, definitely not conventional, 342 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: but also potentially dangerous in political terms, according to Mazi 343 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: and many of his colleagues. You know, in academia, you 344 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: would struggle to find anyone who supports prohibition because you know, 345 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: if you study drugs and addiction, there is no way 346 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: you can say that the current regime of drug prohibition works. 347 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: Your voice changes when you talk about prohibition like you 348 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: just sound hell a board. Is it just because it's 349 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: just an abject failure and there's nothing interesting to say 350 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, And so it's funny that he says, 351 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: so prohibition has been a total failure in Iran elsewhere, 352 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: you know, equally As a really little kid, I remember 353 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: seeing a public service announcement on TV, a warning about 354 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: the grave dangers of marijuana, which was prohibited then across 355 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: the US. I ran from the living room television set 356 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: to the kitchen and then back again, and found my 357 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: fears confirmed the glass object on the kitchen shelf was 358 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: in fact a bomb, which meant that one or maybe 359 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: both of my parents was a drug user. I ended 360 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: up in tears on my dad's lap. He admitted the 361 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: bomb was his and tried to soothe me with a 362 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: hug and some patient words. He asked if I thought 363 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: of him differently, and I told him yes, according to 364 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: the after school TV programming, he was a moral hazard 365 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: and a total deviant. But being my dad, he also 366 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: made the rules about bedtime and dinner menus, so I 367 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: didn't really have a light to stand on. Prohibition might 368 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 1: not be too effective, but it does say something about 369 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: the intensity of our motivation to use intoxicans. People around 370 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: the world are willing to risk serious consequences to get 371 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: drunk or high. Even if how we use them looks different. 372 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: It seems like we've got a really strong universal why, 373 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: and those drives are varied. When you're living Iran, a 374 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: lot of people have the feeling that they are basically 375 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: living in isolation from everything for everything that is happening 376 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: in the world, and that's interesting, you know, they feel 377 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: that they're losing out, and so drugs in a way 378 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: project you in a dimension which is still yours, you 379 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: know if they don't, and the dimension of your everyday life. 380 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: But you're connected, like the people are being high in California, 381 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: you're being high in Tehran. It's a mimicking act. We 382 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: use drugs to feel connected to each other. From communion 383 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: cup to keg stand. We all do use drugs. We 384 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: do because fundamentally we try to feel better in the world. 385 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: Some of them are legal, some of them are illegal. 386 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: Some of them are prescribed by you know, our pharmacists, 387 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: and some you know that may be prescribed by our dealers. 388 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: We use intoxicans to blunt our anxieties to demonstrate our allegiances. 389 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: We use them as part of our ceremonies and to 390 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: compete and connect with one another. And of course the 391 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: particular intoxicans we choose can also send messages about how 392 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: we'd like to be perceived. Like if a woman walks 393 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: into a bar and shoots a double shot of tequila, 394 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: that just reads differently than if she asks for a 395 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: glass of rose or a corps like tall Boy champagne 396 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: is for celebrating Long Island ice teaser for utility. Some 397 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: Irish whiskeys are shunned by Catholics and some shunned by Protestants. 398 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: Smoking a Virginia Slim isn't the same thing as smoking 399 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: a Marlborough Red or a Cuban cigar, And our appetite 400 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: for intoxicants is intense. Listener, I don't relish relaying this 401 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: part of the story, but that slurry of Katie's dad's booze, 402 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: it curdled like maybe a product of mixing red wine 403 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: and dairy, and it had to be strained through a 404 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: sock before drinking. That is so gross, That is so embarrassing. 405 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: But I remember that teenage drive to feel different, that novelty, seeking, thrill, hungry, 406 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: urge to change the settings in my head. Intoxicants might 407 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: not help us hunt or escape being hunted, but the 408 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:46,239 Speaker 1: desire for them is deeply human. I don't usually do that, 409 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: and like say the name of the show as a 410 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: style thing, but that's like just this one time. I'm 411 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: just asking for a past point. Whatever is in your cup, tea, coffee, 412 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: tava or water from the tap. I am lifting a 413 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: glass in your general direction in this recording studio. Have fun, 414 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: be careful, and I'll see you next question. Deeply Human 415 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: is a BBC World Service and American Public Media co 416 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: production with I Heart Media, and it's hosted by Meek Dessa. 417 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: Find me online at Dessa on Instagram and Dessa Darling 418 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: on Twitter. In Western convention, monogamy is baked into the 419 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: mainstream concept of love and romance. You meet, you catch feelings, 420 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: you share a plate of pasta and discovery, you're eating 421 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: the same noodle, you commit and you've stopped seeing other 422 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: people next time. On Deeply Human, we're asking why are 423 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: you supposed to love only one person at a time.