Speaker 1: From very early on, we get bombarded with these messages
Speaker 1: of like how our hair should be, how our face
Speaker 1: should be, how we should dress, how our voice should be.
Speaker 1: Some people's trauma started so early. They're like, I never
Speaker 1: got to be whoever my authentic self is, but that
Speaker 1: I could come home for the first time, and I
Speaker 1: love helping people with that journey.
Speaker 2: Doctor Tamerbrian is a psychologist, author, professor, minister, and sacred
Speaker 2: artist who is leading the way and creating healthy relationships,
Speaker 2: healing traumas, and overcoming stress and impression. Her life changing
Speaker 2: books include Matters of the Heart, Homecoming, Reclame Yourself, and
Speaker 2: The Anti Racism Handbook. Is there a thin line between
Speaker 2: being disciplined and feeling like you're trying to control your
Speaker 2: life too much?
Speaker 1: The desire for control comes from trauma, when we have
Speaker 1: experienced moments of our lives when we were not in
Speaker 1: control and bad things happened.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about, obviously, everything that's happening in America
Speaker 2: right now, with ice and all of that. It's becoming
Speaker 2: more and more acceptable to just say extremely racist things
Speaker 2: on TV in public.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it absolutely is. You know, an inflated sense of
Speaker 1: self is developed to cover up for the insecurity and
Speaker 1: the fear of inferiority. You know, it is driven by
Speaker 1: that that just the presence of people who look, dress,
Speaker 1: talk differently is a threat to my existence.
Speaker 2: Welcome to a Really Good Cry podcast. A Really Good
Speaker 2: Cry is here to help you understand your body, feel
Speaker 2: confident in your skin, manage your emotions, and take back
Speaker 2: control of your health. Because growth doesn't always start with answers.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it starts with a really good cry. Tama, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on the podcast. I have
Speaker 2: been researching and reading and listening to you for a while,
Speaker 2: and I am obsessed. I love the way that your
Speaker 2: words carry so much power. I know said this to
Speaker 2: you earlier, but I just feel your words deeply in
Speaker 2: my heart whenever i've heard you speak, and I'm just
Speaker 2: so honored and happy to have you here.
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, thank you, and thank you
Speaker 3: for the way you've been holding space for these real conversations,
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of times things stay very surface,
Speaker 3: and so it's beautiful like people who are willing to
Speaker 3: go into those deeper places.
Speaker 2: When I was reading your bio and your introduction that
Speaker 2: people said, I was like, you've done so much in
Speaker 2: your life, and I would love for you to just
Speaker 2: share how that journey started, where you started off, and
Speaker 2: the work that you it's brought you to now. I
Speaker 2: would love for you to share that journey with us.
Speaker 4: Sure, absolutely so.
Speaker 1: Growing up I was the daughter of two ministers, so
Speaker 1: then it all kind of makes sense.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, is like in our.
Speaker 1: Community, in the African American community, people often would go
Speaker 1: to a minister or like a pastor before they would
Speaker 1: go to like a therapist or psychologist. And so growing
Speaker 1: up I saw my dad doing pastoral counseling and I
Speaker 1: always say, like, my first time working at like a
Speaker 1: crisis hotline was just my childhood home because people would
Speaker 1: call with all kinds of things, and it's like if
Speaker 1: there's not a parent home, they're just going to start talking.
Speaker 1: And it's funny how something you can get teased for
Speaker 1: can end up being a superpower. So growing up, I
Speaker 1: would have been called like a very sensitive kid, you know,
Speaker 1: just feeling things very deeply, and then you go into
Speaker 1: therapy and it's like, of course, right, of course you
Speaker 1: feel it deeply. And so as I grew up, my
Speaker 1: family operated in what we would call liberation theology. Which
Speaker 1: is it's not just for you the individual and God,
Speaker 1: but about your community and the collective. And so it
Speaker 1: turns out there's an aspect of psychology called liberation psychology,
Speaker 1: so to pay attention to contexts and systems and try
Speaker 1: to bring information to people, which is why like podcasts
Speaker 1: and books and social media help that this information isn't
Speaker 1: just like for the elite, but like for us to
Speaker 1: try to get the information to everyone so that we
Speaker 1: can live enhance lives. And so that was a big
Speaker 1: part of my growing up in Baltimore, Maryland. And then
Speaker 1: when I was like fourteen, my dad was elected to
Speaker 1: be a bishop in the African Methodist Church, and usually
Speaker 1: your first assignment is overseas, so we moved to Liberia,
Speaker 1: West Africa, which gave me like a global sense, like
Speaker 1: the world beyond Baltimore, but also beautifully let me see
Speaker 1: everyone in a position of authority look like me.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: So it's one thing when people are like you could
Speaker 1: be anything you want to be, but if you don't
Speaker 1: see it, it doesn't feel real. But literally to go
Speaker 1: somewhere in the head of the bank and the head
Speaker 1: of the university and the head of the country, like
Speaker 1: are all your reflection. So I feel it really gave
Speaker 1: me that sense of confidence. So that years later when
Speaker 1: I ran for president of the American Psychological Association and
Speaker 1: people were like, what made you feel like you could win,
Speaker 1: I'm like, why not me?
Speaker 4: Right right?
Speaker 1: There has to be someone to lead, so, you know,
Speaker 1: being thoughtful about that, and so that's been my life's work,
Speaker 1: but with a focus on trauma recovery, So whether those
Speaker 1: traumas are childhood abuse or the trauma of oppression or war,
Speaker 1: helping people get through hard times.
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. Wow, what a journey, and so much
Speaker 2: of what your parents taught you and that you lived
Speaker 2: through is just completely shaped who you are today. And
Speaker 2: they're so nice to carry parts of them in that way.
Speaker 1: It's especially beautiful. A little over a year ago, my
Speaker 1: mom transitioned from breast cancer, but I so feel her
Speaker 1: with me and like all of that wisdom with me.
Speaker 1: And as we were talking before about dance, she put
Speaker 1: me into dance class early, so whenever I'm dancing, I
Speaker 1: feel her. So it's a beautiful legacy.
Speaker 4: It is.
Speaker 2: And that I mean the fact that they've got into
Speaker 2: your life from such a young age. I think that
Speaker 2: really shapes you and creates such a different perspective to
Speaker 2: life and how you interact with people, things, what you
Speaker 2: see the world through. It's a different kind of lens
Speaker 2: that you get to experience it. How is your relationship
Speaker 2: with faith and God growing up? I know that's what
Speaker 2: you do now, but did it change and shift over
Speaker 2: the years from what you were brought up with?
Speaker 1: Yees. So one of the beautiful things I think about
Speaker 1: my journey is going through hard times makes you ask questions,
Speaker 1: right because and I think that's a part of like
Speaker 1: your faith formation to wonder right, to say like, I
Speaker 1: was told these things and then life shows up. And
Speaker 1: so instead of feeling bad for your questions or for
Speaker 1: your doubts, to say, like, now I'm making it my
Speaker 1: own right because it has to come alive in me
Speaker 1: if I'm told, you know that God is love and
Speaker 1: that God wants to help us, and then you know
Speaker 1: we have difficult times. So it's in that I think
Speaker 1: that I cultivated actually like a deeper faith, but also
Speaker 1: a transforming faith where I can I'm not put off
Speaker 1: by hard questions, you know, and appreciating the mystery because
Speaker 1: sometimes people give you those cookie cutter answers, and it's
Speaker 1: just like supposed to like shut you up, like if
Speaker 1: you're in grief and they're like God needed another angel, Like.
Speaker 4: No, that that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I appreciate the mystery for the things you
Speaker 1: know that I'm not certain about, and I also feel
Speaker 1: very certain about, like the presence of God and the
Speaker 1: sacredness of every person and our the joy in the
Speaker 1: fact that we have purpose.
Speaker 2: Yes, you have a podcast and a book called Homecoming. Yes,
Speaker 2: I would love to hear from your perspective, what does
Speaker 2: homecoming mean to you? And how do you see it?
Speaker 2: How do you see people for creating that in their life.
Speaker 1: Yes, so for me, the idea of being at home
Speaker 1: with yourself is really empowering. And stress and trauma and
Speaker 1: oppression all serve to disconnect us from ourselves. It's like
Speaker 1: if I'm not in myself, if I'm totally just focused
Speaker 1: on like what do you think or what'll make you happier,
Speaker 1: what will make you approve of me, then I'm not
Speaker 1: like operating in my power, my strength, my clarity. But
Speaker 1: from very early on, we get bombarded with these messages
Speaker 1: of like how our hair should be, how our face
Speaker 1: should be, how we should dress like to how our
Speaker 1: voice should be, you know. And so a part of
Speaker 1: healing and liberation is coming back to myself. And I
Speaker 1: like to say, cause some people's trauma started so early,
Speaker 1: they're like, I never got to be whoever my authentic
Speaker 1: self is, but that I could come home for the
Speaker 1: first time, and I love help people with that journey.
Speaker 2: Over the years of obviously seeing people and helping and
Speaker 2: treating them and in your own life, what are some
Speaker 2: of the key things you think is required for that
Speaker 2: process to actually create that in your life day to day,
Speaker 2: month to month.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think a big part of it is our
Speaker 1: current circumstance because some of sometimes it's hard to heal
Speaker 1: from past wounds because we're in an ongoing situation of
Speaker 1: being stressed out and denied the truth of who we are.
Speaker 1: So a part of healing is actually in relationship and friendship. Right.
Speaker 1: It's like, when I'm in the presence of good people,
Speaker 1: I have some breathing room, I have permission to be myself.
Speaker 1: They're not expecting me to be a clone or to
Speaker 1: like just agree with them about everything. So healthy spaces,
Speaker 1: healthy relationships create an atmosphere that help us to come
Speaker 1: back to ourselves, right, And that's why some relationships we
Speaker 1: have to release because when we are with certain people,
Speaker 1: it keeps us disconnected. So it's like if I can't
Speaker 1: be free to being myself, like this isn't real.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because then you end up feeling like you're just
Speaker 2: trapped in a body in a mind that you it's
Speaker 2: almost like you're watching a movie constantly, or you're in
Speaker 2: a movie contry.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, performing like sending my representative you know if
Speaker 1: I talk like this and do you know and I
Speaker 1: tell our students at Pepperdine where I teach, say, if
Speaker 1: you and their training become therapists. So the idea is,
Speaker 1: if you get to the point of graduation and you've
Speaker 1: lost yourself, we have robbed you. Right, if you think
Speaker 1: like to be taken seriously, I just have to like
Speaker 1: recite these things and have my little pants suit in
Speaker 1: my field and it's like where'd you go, like go,
Speaker 1: there is like richness in you. So I think we
Speaker 1: learn new information and we can integrate that, but at
Speaker 1: the core, like the special sauce is you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you balance that though, between the rules
Speaker 2: and the regulations and the expectations of society. Of the
Speaker 2: people around you. Even if you have a call. Let's
Speaker 2: say your family are really supportive, you can be yourself
Speaker 2: with them, your partner, you can. But how does someone
Speaker 2: keep coming back to themselves when they go out into
Speaker 2: the world and they sometimes do have to put on
Speaker 2: a different suit, They do have to put their suit on,
Speaker 2: go to work, be a different type of person than
Speaker 2: they might be at home, Right, how do you keep
Speaker 2: bringing yourself back?
Speaker 1: So one is having like the nourishing time and space
Speaker 1: to remember yourself, right, Because if when I work, I'm
Speaker 1: pretending and then I've surrounded myself with friends with whom
Speaker 1: I have to pretend, then I'm going to lose I'm
Speaker 1: going to lose myself, right, And so you know, one
Speaker 1: example for me, I have this like sisterhood circle. We
Speaker 1: call ourselves the Gathering. It's so nice and you know,
Speaker 1: when we're in each other's presence, it's like holding up
Speaker 1: that mirror of like remember, like that's not you. And
Speaker 1: so you like need those voices and also like some
Speaker 1: time with yourself. I always say, like if you wake
Speaker 1: up at the time you have to get up, you're
Speaker 1: already starting your day anxious. Yes, right, totally, So it's
Speaker 1: like to have my tea, you know, to have some
Speaker 1: like moments, whether it's meditation, prayer, stretching, walking, watering plants,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, so that then when I go out
Speaker 1: in the world, I'm already grounded, right, so then I'm
Speaker 1: not so easily moved by other people's opinions.
Speaker 2: It's almost like what you need is it sounds so simple,
Speaker 2: but just the quietness of your own mind. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: and it sounds so simple when oh yeah, I feel
Speaker 2: like I get that all the time. But actually, noise,
Speaker 2: it comes in so many forms. It's like energetically noise
Speaker 2: comes in what you'll see, everything that comes through your
Speaker 2: senses becomes noise.
Speaker 4: It does.
Speaker 2: And so how are you, like how you creating those pockets,
Speaker 2: whether it's like driving and not playing something or you know,
Speaker 2: I was saying that I was recording a podcast, yes,
Speaker 2: and I was saying I realized I went got to
Speaker 2: a point where I was taking my phone into the
Speaker 2: shower and I was like, those were my.
Speaker 1: Quiet tight it's all bombarding, yeah, constantly, so you know,
Speaker 1: and the and you know, giving ourselves grace because these
Speaker 1: phones are designed so like keep us, keep us, But
Speaker 1: then you know, even with some of the television platforms
Speaker 1: now where you can like watch the whole season, so
Speaker 1: it's like constant stimulation. And so then where's like my creativity,
Speaker 1: where's my mind and my thought? And which is why
Speaker 1: sometimes when we ask people like how are you feeling,
Speaker 1: we give that fine in you and then I say
Speaker 1: I'm fine, and like neither of us have life reflected
Speaker 1: or like well, no, like how am I doing? Actually
Speaker 1: I'm tired or I'm frustrated or I'm excited or whatever
Speaker 1: that is of like slowing down to see like what's
Speaker 1: really in my heart?
Speaker 2: It is interesting when you ask that question, actually because
Speaker 2: the natural response is I'm good, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: And actually when someone does suddenly say you know what,
Speaker 2: today's been a bit of a difficult day, you're almost like, oh,
Speaker 2: we're talking, We're really having a conversation.
Speaker 4: And it's not common.
Speaker 1: And sometimes you you know, you'd get the messaging that
Speaker 1: people aren't really asking, right, it's like yeah, yeah, as
Speaker 1: they walk away like oh fine, right, or in these
Speaker 1: religious spaces like I'm blessed, you know, with all the
Speaker 1: right language right, and it's like uh, because there was
Speaker 1: a saying too blessed to be stressed, and then we
Speaker 1: had to like push back on that and say you
Speaker 1: could be blessed.
Speaker 4: And stressed at the same time.
Speaker 1: Right, It's like I'm grateful and I'm also disappointed, right,
Speaker 1: so more.
Speaker 4: Room for yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And on the note of duality of emotions, I
Speaker 2: always think about, Okay, what does it actually look like
Speaker 2: and feel like to be healed? Like, what does that
Speaker 2: look like? Because I think the way that we imagine
Speaker 2: it is, Oh, it's going to be very, very that's
Speaker 2: going to be great. I'm gonna get to a point
Speaker 2: where everything's going to feel easier, where everything's going to
Speaker 2: feel smoother. But like, what does heal then happy actually
Speaker 2: look like?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So healed is I am intentional so that I am
Speaker 1: being led by my best self instead of my wound.
Speaker 1: Right when I'm in my unhealed place, my wound is
Speaker 1: deciding for me. My insecurity is deciding for me, My
Speaker 1: anger is deciding for me. So, uh, healed also doesn't
Speaker 1: mean perfect, but it also means self aware enough that
Speaker 1: like I'll notice when I'm out of order it's like
Speaker 1: oh that, yeah, come on back. I'm more intentional, I'm
Speaker 1: more mindful. And also when the difficulties come that I
Speaker 1: can handle it better, that it's not so easy for
Speaker 1: something to like ruin my day or devastate my sense
Speaker 1: of myself, so I can put things in perspective.
Speaker 2: Do you think that knowing yourself has a direct correlation
Speaker 2: to being happy?
Speaker 1: You know, happiness is often circumstantial, right, but joyful like
Speaker 1: from that soulful place is like that rooted in that knowing,
Speaker 1: right in that clarity, So I can have joy even
Speaker 1: things aren't like perfect and it may not be like
Speaker 1: how I expect it to be, but like I can
Speaker 1: cultivate that within myself. So yeah, there's a freedom and
Speaker 1: joy in being who you are and accepting and appreciating
Speaker 1: who you are, because sometimes we think we know ourselves,
Speaker 1: but it's in that judgmental way of like I'm trash
Speaker 1: d all these things, but like in that loving, accepting way,
Speaker 1: you know, imperfections in all like I appreciate me.
Speaker 2: And on the opposite side of feeling disconnected, I wonder how, like,
Speaker 2: how does someone go from suddenly listening to this thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I feel so disconnected from myself? How do I connect back?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: What are the steps that I should be taking? What
Speaker 2: are the things I should be doing to come back home.
Speaker 1: Right, right, So one of the things is to know
Speaker 1: if you realize that you're disconnected. That's step one, right,
Speaker 1: because sometimes we're in denial or we're super busy, Like
Speaker 1: when you're busy and distracted, you don't even notice, and
Speaker 1: so like something happens that makes you realize, like I
Speaker 1: phrased it as I miss me right. I've been busy,
Speaker 1: maybe even productive, maybe even impressive, but I miss me right.
Speaker 1: And so to get back to myself, there's a form
Speaker 1: of a therapy called solutions focused therapy, and it basically
Speaker 1: is you reflect on the seasons in your life when
Speaker 1: you were doing the best, and then what were you
Speaker 1: doing during that time that you've lost sight of. That's nice, right,
Speaker 1: because we hold the solutions in us. It may be
Speaker 1: like when I was my best self, I was meditating more,
Speaker 1: or I was going on my daily walk, or I
Speaker 1: was eating better, and so let me reclaim the practices
Speaker 1: that are good for me, because when we're stressed or busy,
Speaker 1: we let those things go. And it's not sustainable.
Speaker 2: No, it's not at all. When you've been seeing people
Speaker 2: throughout your journey, what would you say the key you've
Speaker 2: noticed to maintaining fulfillment throughout your life. Yeah, deep fulfillment.
Speaker 2: And do you think that you've noticed it's always linked
Speaker 2: to a deeper spiritual practice or a connection to more
Speaker 2: than just ourself.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So that fulfillment comes with purpose, comes with spirituality,
Speaker 1: and comes with relationship. Right, So with purpose, what are
Speaker 1: the things that when I'm doing them, I feel the
Speaker 1: most like me? Right that it's not like I'm chasing
Speaker 1: something or trying to prove something like this feels like me.
Speaker 1: It feels good to me. So when I'm doing that
Speaker 1: kind of living, purposeful living, it feels good. When I
Speaker 1: take time and intention around noticing the sacred, that's good.
Speaker 1: I always tell people when I moved out to La
Speaker 1: at first I was in awe of like the beach
Speaker 1: and the mountains, and you know, and then once you're
Speaker 1: here for a couple of years, you're just like on
Speaker 1: the four or five right driving past the mountains, you
Speaker 1: don't even notice, and so like to bring the awe back,
Speaker 1: you know, of like little kids laughing, or like elders
Speaker 1: telling a super long complicated story. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: that that is fulfilling and freeing. And then in our
Speaker 1: community and relationships being connected to each other.
Speaker 2: I love those. Yeah, definitely noticed the shift when I
Speaker 2: started appreciating the smallest things in life. Yes, like so much,
Speaker 2: like oh wow, that's a bird singing that is so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, there's like this one flower on a tree.
Speaker 2: How amazing. Yes, But it takes what you said, noticing
Speaker 2: and actually being present, actually being aware of what's happening
Speaker 2: in your surrounding, yeah.
Speaker 1: And not taking it for granted, you know, which is
Speaker 1: so easy to do. And it's like to remember the time,
Speaker 1: like when it was more stressful and say like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: there was a there's a time where like we hoped
Speaker 1: and prayed for the things we have now. Yes, and
Speaker 1: then the way our human mind works is then we
Speaker 1: just go to the next uh. Right, It's like you
Speaker 1: make more and then you're like, but I don't have
Speaker 1: what they have, right, Or like all of our promotions
Speaker 1: in life and growth were that compare despair, right, So like,
Speaker 1: let me turn off the comparison or compare to my
Speaker 1: former self and say like, wow, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2: You mentioned this idea of busyness and how you can
Speaker 2: look like you're impressive, look like you're performing really well
Speaker 2: but actually could be so disconnected from who you actually are.
Speaker 2: I've noticed in my life that whenever I busy myself
Speaker 2: a lot, it makes me feel more in control, Like
Speaker 2: it makes me feel like even though, yes, okay, I'm
Speaker 2: really struggling here, but actually, if I busy myself in
Speaker 2: other people's lives, help them guide them, like do all
Speaker 2: those things for me, I'm like, oh, okay, I've got
Speaker 2: control over something. Where does this desire to just control
Speaker 2: come from?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So the desire for control comes from trauma that when
Speaker 1: we have experienced moments of our lives when we were
Speaker 1: not in control and bad things happened. So we're like,
Speaker 1: m not gonna have that happen again. If I can dictated,
Speaker 1: it will work out well. And if other people are
Speaker 1: in charge, sometimes they're gonna do things that don't go well.
Speaker 1: And so it's really like an anxiety or a fear
Speaker 1: that like, what would happen if I was still? What
Speaker 1: would happen if I rested? What would happen if I
Speaker 1: let somebody else do it, or even let someone else
Speaker 1: help me write? What would happen? And so it causes
Speaker 1: us to like look at those scripts we were told
Speaker 1: about people who sit around doing nothing?
Speaker 4: Right, what was we were told? We're like, we're not
Speaker 4: going to become.
Speaker 1: One of those people, And so like, oh, maybe I
Speaker 1: want to rewrite that script that it's a beautiful thing
Speaker 1: to be able to like sit and do nothing.
Speaker 2: That reminds me of my therapist when I was telling
Speaker 2: all these situations that I feel like I really have
Speaker 2: to be involved in and all be saying. She was like,
Speaker 2: but what if you didn't? And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I think they'd be fine, but I think, but I
Speaker 2: have to. But what if you didn't? Just what if
Speaker 2: you did it?
Speaker 4: But consider what if for a week.
Speaker 2: You just didn't participate in this conversation. What if you
Speaker 2: didn't tell the person how you thought they should be
Speaker 2: living their life. What if you did, how would that feel?
Speaker 2: I was like, well, it might feel weird for me,
Speaker 2: but maybe it would feel better for the other person. Actually,
Speaker 2: maybe it would be a better option.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's you know, we co create these dynamics
Speaker 1: with people, and we set up an expectation, right, So
Speaker 1: if people expect us to always be available, to always
Speaker 1: have the answer, you know, then like it keeps that going.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes like say I'm not available, or to
Speaker 1: say no, or to say you know that doesn't work
Speaker 1: for me, or to say turn it back to them,
Speaker 1: you know what do you think?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: There's also just so much anxiety in that feeling. So
Speaker 2: even though it makes you feel like your nervous system
Speaker 2: is regulated, actually the more you think you're controlling or
Speaker 2: trying to control it actually builds so much more anxiety. Yes,
Speaker 2: because then everything you think everything's on you, it's not,
Speaker 2: but you've created an idea in your mind. I remember
Speaker 2: when I was going through that with my grandma put
Speaker 2: Past last year, and I remember in that situation, it
Speaker 2: was like I was here when we heard that she
Speaker 2: had cancer, and all I was trying to do was
Speaker 2: like control, control, control, So, no, we have to do this,
Speaker 2: make sure you're doing this, make sure this bestially doing this.
Speaker 2: And it was my way of trying to be somehow
Speaker 2: have a grasp on the situation. But I was waking
Speaker 2: up with so much anxiety and literally waking up like
Speaker 2: I have to do this, I need to do this,
Speaker 2: and my mind was telling me controlling the situation was
Speaker 2: going to make it better. But the more I tried
Speaker 2: to control, the more anxiety I was feeling, and so yeah,
Speaker 2: it was a big lesson in surrender eventually over the months.
Speaker 2: But it's a weird cycle.
Speaker 1: It is because the thing I'm doing to soothe myself
Speaker 1: can add more pressure to my life.
Speaker 4: Right, but I can be.
Speaker 1: Used to this like perpetual pressure, so that that actually
Speaker 1: feels like normal because for some of us relaxing it's hard,
Speaker 1: like that feels awkward or uncomfortable, and so like learning
Speaker 1: how to do that.
Speaker 2: Is there a thin line between being disciplined and feeling
Speaker 2: like you're trying to control your life too much?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when everything is disciplined and there isn't room
Speaker 1: for like, can you have pleasure? Can you have joy?
Speaker 1: Can you rest? Can you turn off?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Because when it is like this hyper performance there is
Speaker 1: it's fear driving me versus purpose. Right when purpose is
Speaker 1: pulling me there, it's nourishing. It can feel good to me.
Speaker 1: You know, it's work, but I like I'm getting something
Speaker 1: out of it. Yea, If I'm just perpetually putting out,
Speaker 1: then it is you can have a resentment and what
Speaker 1: I would call like a soul exhaustion that like even
Speaker 1: a nap won't fix.
Speaker 2: No, it's yeah, you can get so overwhelming another power,
Speaker 2: especially when you know there's not much you can control
Speaker 2: in your life really and truly. But the thing, especially
Speaker 2: when we're trying to hold onto the things that you
Speaker 2: know you can't control, death being one of them, Like
Speaker 2: you know you can't control that, but we'll try everything
Speaker 2: in our power to you. And it's almost like you're
Speaker 2: pouring all your resources of energy, of time, of everything
Speaker 2: into things that actually we shouldn't be Like the amount
Speaker 2: of energy that gets poured into these things we're trying
Speaker 2: to control that you actually can't and then no wonder
Speaker 2: you're exhausted exactly.
Speaker 1: And then with your example, we also have like the
Speaker 1: distance I'm trying to like prove my investment right exactly,
Speaker 1: I am contributing.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I think I had that. I've been working
Speaker 2: on that a lot, because since I moved to America,
Speaker 2: I've been like that so much. Oh, this is happy
Speaker 2: to dad. Let me do this, it's this versus birthday.
Speaker 2: Let me do this because I can't show my physical process.
Speaker 2: Has there been times in your life where where you've
Speaker 2: gone through not an existential quest, but a moment of
Speaker 2: like question, faith or thinking, what is happening here? Like,
Speaker 2: why am I here? What's my purpose?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'll give you an example actually from my
Speaker 1: presidency when I was president of American Psychological Association was
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and whenever people of faith for my
Speaker 1: community would ask like how they could help, I would say,
Speaker 1: pray for the convention. So we have like an annual
Speaker 1: convention that's in August, and you know, you only get
Speaker 1: one shot at it, so I wanted it to be wonderful,
Speaker 1: and you know, I had people supporting and praying and
Speaker 1: blah bah blah. So August we have this beautiful, beautiful convention.
Speaker 1: And so then in October is when you know, everything
Speaker 1: happened with Israel and Palestine, and so then you find
Speaker 1: yourself in this very difficult circumstance of how as like
Speaker 1: the world's largest psychological association, you know, do we speak
Speaker 1: to the issue and halving, you know, have to get
Speaker 1: all these different perspectives in there, Like no matter what
Speaker 1: statement you make, some people are going to say either
Speaker 1: you haven't said enough, or you said too much, or
Speaker 1: what have you? And so it was a very trying time.
Speaker 1: So that was October, and so the convention of been
Speaker 1: in August. It was wonderful. Now this is October and
Speaker 1: like everything is chaos and these like terrible messages and
Speaker 1: all of this happening, and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: sacred in terms of the sacred, like, did I miss it?
Speaker 4: I was so focused on getting the convention right? Did
Speaker 4: I did?
Speaker 1: I like misdirect my energy? Like what happened? And my dad,
Speaker 1: who's a minister, he said this, which was like, ah,
Speaker 1: he says, the convention was the celebration and the glory,
Speaker 1: and now you have to carry the cross, right. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh right, It's like, yeah, it's not gonna
Speaker 1: all be glory. It's not gonna all be you know,
Speaker 1: because we had the flash mobs, we.
Speaker 4: Hit singing Sweet Honey in the rock, like we have
Speaker 4: all of that.
Speaker 1: But like you know, there is going to be the difficulty,
Speaker 1: the challenge, and so to not think that you're off
Speaker 1: course just because it's difficult, that the difficulty is a
Speaker 1: part of the process, and you just continue to show
Speaker 1: up and do what you can to try to move
Speaker 1: things in the right direction.
Speaker 2: There is obviously just so much happening in the world,
Speaker 2: in so much pain that's circulating energetically physically. There's just
Speaker 2: especially here even in America, how do people go from
Speaker 2: I think that's the question that I get messaged a lot,
Speaker 2: and it's hard to really explain to you. But how
Speaker 2: do you uplift yourself at a time where so much
Speaker 2: feels so heavy? Like how do you even allow yourself
Speaker 2: to be happy be joyful when you know that there
Speaker 2: is so much collective suffering happening in the world.
Speaker 4: Right Such a great question.
Speaker 1: One of my good friends, doctor Helen Neville, when she
Speaker 1: was the president of the Counseling Psychology Division, her theme
Speaker 1: was justice and joy, And I think that's like kind
Speaker 1: of the call of our times is working for justice
Speaker 1: and at the same time cultivating joy right for ourselves
Speaker 1: and others, because while our outrage may motivate us in
Speaker 1: and of itself, like if I'm just driven by my outrage,
Speaker 1: it's not sustainable. And also, I say to people, if
Speaker 1: everything has to be right all over the world for
Speaker 1: me to have any joy, I will never get to
Speaker 1: have joy in my lifetime and nor the next lifetime.
Speaker 1: And so being intentional to show up, to be present,
Speaker 1: to do what we can for humanity, and also to
Speaker 1: know like I am deserving of the joy that I
Speaker 1: so desperately want to give other people right and so
Speaker 1: to be able to not feel guilty about going to
Speaker 1: sit at the beach, right, not to feel like if
Speaker 1: I'm drinking this tea, I could say, like, there are
Speaker 1: people in the world right now who have nothing to drink,
Speaker 1: So now in solidarity, so we want to be thoughtful
Speaker 1: about our own humanity and our own sustainability while we're
Speaker 1: doing the work.
Speaker 2: It's also almost counteracting the collective pain that's happening. There
Speaker 2: needs to be a balance of but what if we
Speaker 2: were you were the person that was able to go
Speaker 2: out and make two or three other people happy in
Speaker 2: that room, or you know, rather than bringing in more
Speaker 2: pain and more suffering, how can you then help uplift
Speaker 2: or embrace or take on the pain that other people
Speaker 2: are feeling in those situations and maybe give something back
Speaker 2: that will help them uplift themselves through that. Or Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think there's something to collective suffering but also something
Speaker 2: to collective joy that you can try and count rocked
Speaker 2: it with.
Speaker 1: Yes, so the collective joy, and I would say, uh,
Speaker 1: our gift and maybe calling is also in putting it
Speaker 1: in contexts right, So for example, I say, like dances
Speaker 1: medicine and like, you know, we can dance and like
Speaker 1: lift the mood and feel good. But also by example,
Speaker 1: you know, there was you know, voter suppression happening, and
Speaker 1: so in you know, minoritized communities, you had like these
Speaker 1: super long lines waiting to vote because their polls have
Speaker 1: been like systematically shut down. And so this powerful moment
Speaker 1: I was on social media where it was in one county,
Speaker 1: these super long lines of people of color waiting to vote,
Speaker 1: and in the midst of that, like somebody put on
Speaker 1: music and people were doing the electrics.
Speaker 4: Line in the line right waiting to vote.
Speaker 1: And so the context is a part of the joy
Speaker 1: of like like even in this like even in this moment,
Speaker 1: that we're able to bring in our movement and bring
Speaker 1: in our celebration. So I would say even for those
Speaker 1: who feel like they're kind of like calling or contribution
Speaker 1: is like lifting people or like lightening the load, like
Speaker 1: to also acknowledge the load.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, yes, yeah, I'd love to move on to trauma.
Speaker 2: I know that you work with is it the Harvard
Speaker 2: Medical School, and you were saying that you work with
Speaker 2: victims of violence and there's a program for that that
Speaker 2: is there a difference between coping with trauma and actually
Speaker 2: healing from it, and how does that look different and
Speaker 2: how can someone if there is a difference, move from
Speaker 2: coping towards healing.
Speaker 1: Yes, so with with coping, we're looking at trying to
Speaker 1: like soothe our distress, relieve our distress. So coping strategies
Speaker 1: might be taking a bubble bath, a roma therapy, talking
Speaker 1: to a therapists, you know, these ways of creative arts
Speaker 1: can be, but ways of coping with my distress. In
Speaker 1: terms of healing my sense of myself, some people talk
Speaker 1: about that as meaning making right. So what is the
Speaker 1: story I'm telling myself about why this happened? Because you
Speaker 1: could use like meditation to cope, but still might be
Speaker 1: blaming yourself for the assault or abuse. Right, So then
Speaker 1: I'm coping, but I haven't healed my identity.
Speaker 2: Are they different types of therapies that you recommend if
Speaker 2: someone's listening and they're struggling to heal from what they're
Speaker 2: going through what they've gone through. Are there different types
Speaker 2: of therapies that you would recommend to people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there is first of all, trauma focused therapy
Speaker 1: because sometimes people are in therapy and either they and
Speaker 1: or the therapist is avoiding the trauma, right, be in
Speaker 1: therapy for a long time and still haven't because because
Speaker 1: we can work with what is brought into the room.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes people are like, oh, I'm coming because
Speaker 1: my sister's getting all my nerves, but they haven't dealt
Speaker 1: with some really big events that have happened. And so
Speaker 1: to shift out of avoidance and actually addressing it. In
Speaker 1: terms of you know, approaches to trauma, there are all
Speaker 1: different types. There's cognitive processing therapy where like you write
Speaker 1: out the story of the trauma and then the therapist
Speaker 1: helps you to identify the unhealthy thoughts that we have
Speaker 1: in there. So in my telling of the story, I
Speaker 1: could be blaming and shaming myself. And so then it's
Speaker 1: not just the telling but looking at like what's the story?
Speaker 1: And then I'm also excited that people have been doing
Speaker 1: more with what we call somatic therapy or embodied therapy
Speaker 1: or trauma informed yoga of like or praise dancing, bringing
Speaker 1: your body into your healing. Especially the body was the
Speaker 1: sight of the violation, right, So then if my body
Speaker 1: is violated and I'm trying to just think my way
Speaker 1: into healing, I could be missing that central part of
Speaker 1: the fullness of me.
Speaker 2: The physical body stows so much emotions thought. It's like
Speaker 2: everything is just physically manifest in our body in some way,
Speaker 2: And there's so much to talking about something but actually
Speaker 2: feeling it through. Where am I feeling this pain and
Speaker 2: this heartache in my body? Like? Where is it manifesting
Speaker 2: inside of me?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And there's also whether liberation psychology or feminist psychology, which
Speaker 1: says to not just put the weight on yourself, but
Speaker 1: to recognize how these various systems are affecting us. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if I have a woman who has body
Speaker 1: image issues, it's one thing if I pretend that this
Speaker 1: just started in your mind right of like what you
Speaker 1: have these unhealthy thoughts, or they'll take it one generation
Speaker 1: back and like blame your mother. You know, your mother
Speaker 1: puts you on a diet when you were eleven, and
Speaker 1: that's the reason why you don't accept yourself. But it's
Speaker 1: like it's much bigger than you and your mother. Ye, right,
Speaker 1: where you get all of these media images from the
Speaker 1: time that we can perceive that tell us like what
Speaker 1: is beautiful, what is desirable? And so of course the
Speaker 1: further you are from that, the harder it is to
Speaker 1: really embrace and celebrate yourself.
Speaker 2: And obviously we see that so much through social media,
Speaker 2: Like social media can be used for so much good,
Speaker 2: and I don't want to take away from that. But
Speaker 2: if you're trying not to just shut yourself off from
Speaker 2: social media, which is the obvious thought process when you're
Speaker 2: like I need to get away from one of this,
Speaker 2: let me just shut off. But it's hard because you
Speaker 2: can shut up from social media, but then it'll show
Speaker 2: up in movies. You can shut up from movies, but
Speaker 2: it will show up in the news. And so how
Speaker 2: do you keep coming back to this idea of what
Speaker 2: you know to be true when ninety percent of your
Speaker 2: life is showing you the opposite.
Speaker 1: So one of them is it would call like media
Speaker 1: literacy for me to be able to see what I'm
Speaker 1: being presented, right, It's like, Okay, I love to watch
Speaker 1: the movies and like, isn't it interesting that all the
Speaker 1: romantic interests like look like this person, right, and also
Speaker 1: seeking out media that tells a different story and trying
Speaker 1: to like show that to my kids of like, you know,
Speaker 1: a different narratives, that whole piece of representation matters, and
Speaker 1: so and even like what magazines I look at. You know,
Speaker 1: some magazines are more intentional about celebrating the range of beauty,
Speaker 1: and so trying to choose those things for myself, but
Speaker 1: also giving myself grace for when I like slip into
Speaker 1: those mindsets. So you know, there's this fascination, you know,
Speaker 1: with youth, and everyone wants like a compliment is to
Speaker 1: not look your age, right, and so so it's easy
Speaker 1: to like to get pulled into that of like, oh great,
Speaker 1: it is a great compliment that I don't look my
Speaker 1: age instead of like, you know, what does it mean
Speaker 1: to be like fifty and fabulous? To embrace that and
Speaker 1: feel good about it.
Speaker 2: You know, I can so relate to that, but especially
Speaker 2: living in LA where everything is about like not having
Speaker 2: lines on your face, trying to avoid looking anything older
Speaker 2: than like sixteen. And it's really interesting because what I
Speaker 2: have to keep reminding myself of is one that this
Speaker 2: body is the least interesting thing about me. And I
Speaker 2: remember like, and I always remember my grandma when I
Speaker 2: talk about this, because she looked in the mirror maybe
Speaker 2: once a day throughout her life, maybe, and everything else
Speaker 2: was so much more interesting about her life that she
Speaker 2: never commented about her body, And that's the one person
Speaker 2: that I can think of in my whole life that
Speaker 2: never commented anything about her own body. I look find this,
Speaker 2: I don't look nice in this. My face looks like this.
Speaker 2: But I think it's reminding yourself constantly. But then what's
Speaker 2: tricky is you could say to someone I really I
Speaker 2: don't care about the lines of face, but how are
Speaker 2: you actually feeling about it? And so I think there's
Speaker 2: like these It's two things. It's the how do I
Speaker 2: retrain my mind to actually look in the mirror and
Speaker 2: not first see the lines near my eyes? But then
Speaker 2: it's also the words that we use. And I don't
Speaker 2: think you have to wait to feel it before you
Speaker 2: say it. I think actually the words are so powerful
Speaker 2: that you're using every single day. And so if someone says, oh,
Speaker 2: you actually look so much younger than thirty five, say oh, no,
Speaker 2: I actually feel great being thirty five, rather mean thank
Speaker 2: you so much and allowing yourself to feel so content
Speaker 2: and create happiness from that those words that have been
Speaker 2: fed to you. How do you remind yourself that, actually, no,
Speaker 2: that's great that they think that, but I feel so
Speaker 2: great in my body being thirty five.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so such a good point you're making about
Speaker 1: how sometimes our words can outpace our hearts right to
Speaker 1: help shift our hearts. And I think about Eve Ensler,
Speaker 1: who did the vagin A Man of Logs. She was
Speaker 1: in an interview and she was saying, you know, living
Speaker 1: in this culture and climate, you know, there isn't really
Speaker 1: a woman in particular who could say like they love
Speaker 1: every aspect of their physical self. But she was saying,
Speaker 1: despite that, it's like a revolutionary act to look in
Speaker 1: the mirror or look at yourself and say I love it, right,
Speaker 1: I love it, even if a part of me is
Speaker 1: like you know, do I it's like to just proclaim it,
Speaker 1: to start to like shift ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yes, And what a ripple effect that has on your
Speaker 2: children and other people. Like the fact that I can
Speaker 2: think of my grandma and say, wow, I've never heard
Speaker 2: her say one negative thing about her body.
Speaker 4: That's fascinating it is.
Speaker 2: And then if I saw if my friend was like
Speaker 2: rocking whatever she was rocking, and even though she felt
Speaker 2: a little bit insecure, but I'd be like, wow, that's
Speaker 2: such a courageous thing to do. And the more you
Speaker 2: do it, the more you allow other people to feel
Speaker 2: that way about themselves too. Yeah. And on that note,
Speaker 2: for people who are on social media like me, I
Speaker 2: would love to hear your advice or you know, do
Speaker 2: you have any words of wisdom that you could share
Speaker 2: with people who do have a platform that micro, macro
Speaker 2: whatever is that influence people or that have some sort
Speaker 2: of influence over people. What should people be really reminding
Speaker 2: themselves of and keep taking into consideration because I think
Speaker 2: it could be taken really lightly these days, and I
Speaker 2: have to remind myself of it all the time.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is so important for us to think about
Speaker 1: the fact we are curating a gallery.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah.
Speaker 1: So when people visit my gallery which is my page,
Speaker 1: what do I want them to come away with?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: And and how am I giving that message over time?
Speaker 1: And do I give myself permission for when the message
Speaker 1: may change right or may have different layers to it.
Speaker 1: Social media being a bunch of galleries. There are galleries
Speaker 1: you can visit which make you feel worse about yourself,
Speaker 1: you know. There are galleries which are deflating, there are
Speaker 1: galleries that thrive on like drama and put downs, and
Speaker 1: there are galleries that either inspire us or educate us
Speaker 1: or motivate us, or give us an exhale, even for
Speaker 1: people who you know, if you're giving us a cooking recipe,
Speaker 1: that one that like we could actually cook the thing
Speaker 1: and that would be great, or even if we don't
Speaker 1: cook it, and it's just like a breath of fresh
Speaker 1: air of like, oh, I'm gonna watch you make it
Speaker 1: that like that looks fun or that looks good and
Speaker 1: like and that I'm intentional about putting that out in
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when I was first starting to create. Naturally,
Speaker 2: you think everything has to be curated and perfect. I
Speaker 2: remember getting these messages and at first I was a
Speaker 2: little bit offended, and then I realized how powerful it
Speaker 2: actually was. I remember getting messages from girl saying, I
Speaker 2: just love how you embrace like that. You don't have
Speaker 2: a model's body, but it makes me feel so comfortable
Speaker 2: in my body. And at that time, I was like,
Speaker 2: but I really want a model was bodying me. But
Speaker 2: as time has gone on, like I've been posting a
Speaker 2: lot of my fitness stuff lately because I'm training for something,
Speaker 2: and there's been so many times where I've seen these
Speaker 2: videos and I've been like, oh my god, my Tommy
Speaker 2: looks so weird in this or this doesn't fit me right,
Speaker 2: or it's pressing me in the wrong way, and my
Speaker 2: natural instinct would be like just cut that bit out.
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, well, no, yes, like why would
Speaker 2: why am I doing it? For what?
Speaker 4: To be seen?
Speaker 2: In what way? And it's liberating for me. I can
Speaker 2: speak from my own experience where I'm like, Okay, great,
Speaker 2: that little pouch in my belly that's out there now
Speaker 2: the world can see it. I've exposed it. We're good.
Speaker 2: But also the knock on effect that it has, I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's amazing, Like how how wonderful that me embracing that
Speaker 2: part of my body, such a minor thing, has become
Speaker 2: something that does that for someone else. So I always
Speaker 2: remember that when I'm about to like crop something out, Okay.
Speaker 1: I love it is that it's you know, So what
Speaker 1: is my message? That our authenticity is more than acceptable, right,
Speaker 1: and that it's a gift to be real in everybody
Speaker 1: in every form that we take. And I think about
Speaker 1: you know, when I first asked, because my podcast was
Speaker 1: audio for the longest, when I first shifted to video,
Speaker 1: when I was going to record the first time, I
Speaker 1: like when it got my makeup done and then it's like,
Speaker 1: oh now it's like sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
Speaker 1: It's nothing wrong I would make up, but like if
Speaker 1: I if I have time or motivated to do that,
Speaker 1: and if it's gonna be me and my natural face
Speaker 1: with some lip gloss, then that is more than enough.
Speaker 2: I think A big part of that comes with feeling
Speaker 2: a connection to your soul. Like we were mentioning, the
Speaker 2: strong your connection is to something more than just your
Speaker 2: physical body, the more that it's a reminder every day
Speaker 2: that it isn't the most important thing about you, that
Speaker 2: it changes, that it evolves, that it's part of life
Speaker 2: for this body to change. But the focal point being
Speaker 2: but what am I doing for my soul? What am
Speaker 2: I doing for my heart? And is that in balance?
Speaker 2: Am I focusing ninety percent on my body and ten
Speaker 2: percent on my soul? And is that reflective of how
Speaker 2: I'm feeling?
Speaker 4: Insight?
Speaker 1: And you know, so much on our bodies and nothing
Speaker 1: on content, right, So we were you know, you can
Speaker 1: be like all made up and have the right outfit
Speaker 1: and like there's nothing there and so being thoughtful and
Speaker 1: intentional about that, like on purpose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, on purpose taking away social media. One thing
Speaker 2: I think is quite difficult just living in society is
Speaker 2: trying to remember the value of who you are, even
Speaker 2: though the things that are valued in the world are
Speaker 2: so different. So if you have money, generally you're valued
Speaker 2: in certain areas. If you have beauty you're valued in
Speaker 2: certain ways. If you have affluence of some kind or
Speaker 2: power of some kind, you're valued in different ways. And
Speaker 2: then I think a lot of people feel not lost,
Speaker 2: but invisible and insignificant in the world. So in a
Speaker 2: world where it is like that and it seems like
Speaker 2: it hasn't changed even though things are changing, the core
Speaker 2: of it doesn't, I think it's really hard for people
Speaker 2: to find significance in themselves without trying to find it
Speaker 2: in those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is the idea of worthiness and sacredness that
Speaker 1: it's not tied to performance, right, So it's like if
Speaker 1: I just sat here doing nothing, am I enough? And
Speaker 1: you know this goes also back to like the trauma
Speaker 1: piece or oppression, where we can constantly feel we have
Speaker 1: to like prove like that I'm worthy of taking up space,
Speaker 1: or like if I'm smart enough or cute enough or
Speaker 1: funny enough, Right, then I'll be chosen. Yes, And it's
Speaker 1: like without jokes, without like all the degrees, without all
Speaker 1: the makeup, Like I am a living soul, and that's
Speaker 1: like a really beautiful thing to be.
Speaker 4: It is.
Speaker 2: I was thinking about, obviously, everything that's happening in America
Speaker 2: right now with ice and all of that, and how
Speaker 2: racism has you know, gotten to a point and it's
Speaker 2: been like this obviously for generations, but it's becoming more
Speaker 2: and more acceptable to just say extremely racist things on
Speaker 2: TV in public, almost like even more so than it
Speaker 2: has been for a long time. I don't know whether obviously,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've noticed that. And then I was thinking
Speaker 2: about it in relation to worthiness, and in my mind,
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, if the only thing that you
Speaker 2: are able to feel superior about is the color of
Speaker 2: your skin, that must mean you have so much lack,
Speaker 2: so much insecurity in yourself that you cannot find any
Speaker 2: more worthiness in yourself except for this one thing, and
Speaker 2: so you create this whole superiority complex based on this
Speaker 2: one thing. And I don't know, it just kind of
Speaker 2: came to you this week and I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: it's so much insecure that racism is based on.
Speaker 1: Yes, it absolutely is. It is you know, an inflated
Speaker 1: sense of self is developed to cover up for the
Speaker 1: insecurity and the fear of inferiority, and so that is
Speaker 1: you know, it is driven by that that just the
Speaker 1: presence of people who look, dress, talk differently is a
Speaker 1: threat to my existence.
Speaker 2: Such an interesting psychology, Yeah.
Speaker 4: It really is.
Speaker 1: And so the role of then dismantling it is in
Speaker 1: parts psychological. I like to say racism is interdisciplinary, so
Speaker 1: it uses every system to promote itself, the legal system,
Speaker 1: the educational system, the banking system. And so then to
Speaker 1: dismantle it will require each of us in our different systems.
Speaker 1: So like the media is a system, and so then
Speaker 1: you use your platform to like this mantle, disrupt to
Speaker 1: name it right for the insecurity inferiority that it is.
Speaker 1: You know that psychologists do their part, educators through their part,
Speaker 1: parents do their part, Politicians do their part to shift
Speaker 1: the tide. But it is, you know, if we take
Speaker 1: it on an individual level, anyone who feels good about
Speaker 1: themselves doesn't spend their conversation and energy talking about how
Speaker 1: terrible everybody else is. Right, they don't even mention them.
Speaker 1: So I don't want to plug certain restaurants. But there
Speaker 1: was like a joke about like, when you're the lead restaurant,
Speaker 1: you don't do commercials about the other restaurants because it
Speaker 1: doesn't you know, what doesn't matter. But when all of
Speaker 1: my time and energy is on monitoring other people and
Speaker 1: demonizing other people, it's like, because I'm afraid I am
Speaker 1: not enough.
Speaker 2: And you have to constantly tell tell people how horrible
Speaker 2: or how terrible someone else is to try and make
Speaker 2: yourself haught.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's amazing because it is the act of
Speaker 1: dehumanizing others dehumanizes the very person who's doing it.
Speaker 4: Wow. Could. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's like if I am saying that immigrants are
Speaker 1: animals or criminals or and so they are not deserving
Speaker 1: of human rights, as I'm cheering for that, Like when
Speaker 1: people are literally treating children this way, treating women and
Speaker 1: men elders this way, the part of my own humanity
Speaker 1: that I have to disconnect from for that to either
Speaker 1: be acceptable or praiseworthy means I've lost my own humanity.
Speaker 4: Like I was trying to.
Speaker 1: Say they're not human, and by me doing that, I
Speaker 1: surrendered my own humanity.
Speaker 2: You've an anti racism handbook, how don't you, Yeah, could
Speaker 2: you share?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us think we know me
Speaker 2: myself included about the systemic racism that happens, and I
Speaker 2: think I know, but I actually think we have no idea,
Speaker 2: and I became more aware of it. I went to
Speaker 2: this event called fifteen Percent Pledge, and it was really
Speaker 2: interesting for me to learn that even now black owned
Speaker 2: businesses are given the tiniest portion of the shelf space,
Speaker 2: even for businesses in huge stores. And so I would
Speaker 2: love to hear a little bit more about the book,
Speaker 2: but also share some stats or anything that you think
Speaker 2: people should really know.
Speaker 1: So it's important to know that racism is not only individual,
Speaker 1: but as you're making reference to its systemic is structural,
Speaker 1: it's institutional. So why is that important? We often are
Speaker 1: more comfortable with the word bias, right, because that kind
Speaker 1: of die like everyone has biases, and that is true.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, when I only think about
Speaker 1: it as a bias, then it's that some people might
Speaker 1: not like me. And so what do we teach children
Speaker 1: to do if people don't like you? You just avoid them? Yes, right,
Speaker 1: It's like if you know, three doors down for me,
Speaker 1: a neighbor's racist. I'm just not going to go to
Speaker 1: their house and I'm just going to keep living my life.
Speaker 1: So when we only think about it as individual actors,
Speaker 1: we miss the ways in which it is baked into
Speaker 1: our structures and systems. And so in acknowledging that is
Speaker 1: to recognize it's unavoidable, right, I can't just avoid racism
Speaker 1: when we look at the educational system, the curriculum of
Speaker 1: like even the movement to make it illegal to speak
Speaker 1: about American history, right, like to that if you speak
Speaker 1: about the truth of our nation, you're somehow being divisive
Speaker 1: or unpatriotic, right, you're being hateful when you're only speaking
Speaker 1: the truth of what has happened. So it's in the
Speaker 1: educational system, it's in the banking system. So we have
Speaker 1: research that's called an unconscious bias, where so some people
Speaker 1: hate and fear other groups and they know it. Sometimes
Speaker 1: people are not even aware that it exists for them.
Speaker 1: And so some of the studies that have been done
Speaker 1: with that is you give out college applications and you
Speaker 1: change nothing on the application, but the race or people
Speaker 1: are applying for a job, the resumes the same. We
Speaker 1: just change the gender or race, and people racism and
Speaker 1: sexism shows up time and time again where you're just
Speaker 1: less likely to even get the opportunity, which is why
Speaker 1: some parents will say they gave their children, for example,
Speaker 1: gender neutral names. They're like, I don't want people to
Speaker 1: know from reading the application that my child is a
Speaker 1: girl or woman, or the way people respond to you
Speaker 1: have an ethnic sounding day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why my husband parents call them Amy and Jay.
Speaker 1: Look at that, right. So it's like people are moving
Speaker 1: strategically because this stuff exists and it's real. And so
Speaker 1: in terms of you know, you were saying with businesses
Speaker 1: the ways in which black farmers have been penalized and
Speaker 1: not given the grants, that now white farmers are experiencing
Speaker 1: that as well, and they're like, this is outrageous, and
Speaker 1: it's like, yes, it is outrageous right now. In terms
Speaker 1: of science, there were some scientists who were like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't protest. I'm a scientist. I'm not into social justice.
Speaker 1: Until then science came under attack and it was like,
Speaker 1: if you are doing research studies, you're given like these
Speaker 1: list of words that the federal government does not want
Speaker 1: to fund. And on that list is not only black
Speaker 1: and Latinos, the word women on the list is trauma.
Speaker 1: So these ideas of like what we're not been supposed
Speaker 1: to speak to our dress under the guise of like
Speaker 1: things will be fair if we don't talk about these things,
Speaker 1: if we don't look at these things, and uh, the
Speaker 1: very opposite is the case.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because even when you think about justice
Speaker 2: for women and the way that you know, the world's evolved, now,
Speaker 2: I feel like there's this thing where women are just
Speaker 2: asking for too much. We're going on about it too much.
Speaker 2: You go on about racism too much. It's going on
Speaker 2: about women too much. And it's but it hasn't even
Speaker 2: got to equal, So how is it too much? But
Speaker 2: it seems like just because people are talking about it more,
Speaker 2: people are getting tired of listening to it. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: imagine how tired everyone's feeling it. Yes, it is, but
Speaker 2: it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Fasterful gas lighting, right to say the problem is that
Speaker 1: people talking about it, not the issue itself. But it's
Speaker 1: a very effective strategy because then you have people, before
Speaker 1: they say something, say well, I don't want to play
Speaker 1: the race card or not to bring up gender. But
Speaker 1: and so to create an atmosphere where the naming of
Speaker 1: it is problematic is a way for the behaviors to
Speaker 1: continue and to be supported.
Speaker 2: It's also the studies and the research that's been done.
Speaker 2: For example, let's talk about prisons. If they're doing studies
Speaker 2: on the amount of ethnic minorities or people of color
Speaker 2: that are in prisons. The type of research that's being done, one,
Speaker 2: you're arresting more people who are of color, so of
Speaker 2: course there are going to be more people in prisons
Speaker 2: that are of color, but then using that information to
Speaker 2: say that they are now dangerous. So because there are
Speaker 2: more people of color in prisons, that means more prisoners
Speaker 2: are of color, which means that on the street, you
Speaker 2: should be more careful if there's a person of color
Speaker 2: on the street, right, But it's all their own resources
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: Yes, So creating structures and systems that reinforce the belief. Right,
Speaker 1: So if we are more likely to put children of
Speaker 1: color in special education, and then we promote the idea
Speaker 1: where they're just not as intelligent. Right, So you go
Speaker 1: across the country and in the you know, in these
Speaker 1: gifted classes they are more likely to be all white.
Speaker 1: So then you have this idea, falsely that we must
Speaker 1: be more intelligent because look at the composition of the classes,
Speaker 1: not looking at the evaluation process, the assessment process. This
Speaker 1: even shows up in mental health that you know, we
Speaker 1: we are can hospitalize people when they're considered a threat, right,
Speaker 1: so if you're a threat to yourself or others, then
Speaker 1: we can mandate that you have to be hospitalized. So
Speaker 1: then you consider race and gender. Who was considered to
Speaker 1: be a threat? Like who can stand there and yell
Speaker 1: until you know, the sun goes down and people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're just upset, right, yes, but who if they slightly
Speaker 1: raise their voice? Is like, we were all afraid, so
Speaker 1: we had to call the authorities.
Speaker 2: It's a difficult thing to write your head around. And
Speaker 2: I wonder when people come into a church or come
Speaker 2: into a spiritual place and they're like, yeah, but why
Speaker 2: is this happening? And like, is there a way to
Speaker 2: spiritually make sense of this and help people to understand it,
Speaker 2: help people get through it. Yeah, I guess that's just
Speaker 2: it's just the thought that came to my mind because
Speaker 2: even even for me, every time these things happen from
Speaker 2: my culture, I'm always just like, but why, Like why
Speaker 2: is this happening? Yea, And how can you make sense
Speaker 2: of it? And how can you believe in God and
Speaker 2: believe in that there's more? But then also notice that
Speaker 2: so much is happening.
Speaker 1: Yes, so a big piece is greed. And so when
Speaker 1: we are actually disconnecting from our spiritual selves and instead
Speaker 1: have an insatiable thirst for resources, yes.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 1: Even the hope that one day we could have those
Speaker 1: resoce sources, then that can motivate us to dehumanize other people,
Speaker 1: because then the message is these are the people who
Speaker 1: are stopping you from being rich, right right, So if
Speaker 1: we could either lock them all up or get them
Speaker 1: out of the country, then you could have great jobs,
Speaker 1: and you could have all the money in a big
Speaker 1: house and like in, your life will be wonderful, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, yeah, then my life.
Speaker 4: Will be great, right right. We got to get rid
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 1: If we get you know, these women are getting promoted
Speaker 1: too much, if we get them back in the home
Speaker 1: and learning what it really means to be a woman,
Speaker 1: then you could have that position and you could have
Speaker 1: money and power and wealth. And so it is this
Speaker 1: scarcity mentality that there is not enough and that everyone
Speaker 1: else is the enemy to your own success. So then
Speaker 1: people even people who are impoverished will vote along the
Speaker 1: lines that go against their own well being under the
Speaker 1: hope that these wealthy people are going to pave the
Speaker 1: way for my wealth.
Speaker 2: Yes, I find with them. You know, there's a big,
Speaker 2: big difference that people like to make between being spiritual
Speaker 2: and being religious, and I think from speaking to people
Speaker 2: who struggle with the idea of religion, I find that
Speaker 2: a big part of it is this feeling of shame
Speaker 2: and guilt and this idea of punishment that comes with
Speaker 2: believing in God. If you believe in God, God, you know,
Speaker 2: God has the ability to punish you. And I'd love
Speaker 2: to get your perspective on it, because you know, I
Speaker 2: believe God is just all loving and wants the best
Speaker 2: for you, and you have a personal relationship with God.
Speaker 2: But there are you know, parts of religion that do
Speaker 2: make you God fearing, and I'd love to just touch
Speaker 2: on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question, And I like to name
Speaker 1: that most people who are religious, if they study and
Speaker 1: speak to like the teachings of their religion, it would
Speaker 1: also require a spirituality. So you know, we think about
Speaker 1: spirituality often as this like internal or individual process, and
Speaker 1: then religion as like this collective endorsement of a set
Speaker 1: of doctrines or beliefs and practices.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: So there are people who are spiritual and not religious.
Speaker 1: There are people who are religious and not spiritual, and
Speaker 1: there are people who are both. So it's like a
Speaker 1: part of a collective but also having this individual process.
Speaker 1: What I like to remind people one is that whenever
Speaker 1: you have human beings involved in something, there are going
Speaker 1: to be people who misuse it, people who use it
Speaker 1: to justify wrong, and then there are going to be
Speaker 1: people who use it for the collective good.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: So it's not that in and of itself it is
Speaker 1: bad or good. It's used in a particular way that
Speaker 1: can be uplifting or that can be oppressive, And so
Speaker 1: it's important for us to hold space for like those
Speaker 1: range of experiences. Have some people used it to like
Speaker 1: shame and reject and enslave others, Yes, Have some people
Speaker 1: used it for liberation and healing?
Speaker 4: Yes? Right?
Speaker 1: And then I appreciate your nose, your idea about like
Speaker 1: your idea of who God is. This is a really
Speaker 1: important question, not just do I believe in God or
Speaker 1: God's or a God is, what is the nature of
Speaker 1: the God I believe in. So in psychology we have
Speaker 1: positive religious coping and negative religious coping. So with positive
Speaker 1: religious coping, it's this idea that God or my higher
Speaker 1: power is out for my good, loves me, wants me
Speaker 1: to win, is there to help me, is guiding me.
Speaker 1: And then negative religious coping is God is angry at me.
Speaker 1: God hates me. God is out to make my life
Speaker 1: terrible because because God is mad right, and so then
Speaker 1: it's not just who do I believe in or what
Speaker 1: do I believe in?
Speaker 4: How do I understand what.
Speaker 1: That is right? And is it loving right? Is it compassionate?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: An example I like to use is like my best
Speaker 1: friend knows me and knows like if I chose, if
Speaker 1: I do something that's problematic, they know something is going
Speaker 1: on with me, that I'm off right, like I was
Speaker 1: off or I was whatever it was. So then my
Speaker 1: friends show me grace. They don't, you know, endorse everything
Speaker 1: I do, but they show me grace, love, compassion. So
Speaker 1: if my friend can do that based on their knowledge
Speaker 1: of me, then God, being all knowing, all loving, can
Speaker 1: see me with grace, with tenderness and desire for me
Speaker 1: to have a fulfilling life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always think about like if there's such a
Speaker 2: big difference between being God fearing and God loving, or
Speaker 2: like feeling that God loves you or feeling that, oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't do my practices today, I'm going to get
Speaker 2: punished for it. I didn't do my rituals today, I'm
Speaker 2: going to get punished for it. It actually if something,
Speaker 2: if your thought process is taking you further away from
Speaker 2: God or the universe or whatever everyone wants to call
Speaker 2: the creator. But if someone is taking you something is
Speaker 2: taking you away from that connection, that's a sign that
Speaker 2: that belief might not be a belief that you want
Speaker 2: to have. And so I think it's a really difficult
Speaker 2: it's difficult to read because, like you said, humans, the
Speaker 2: word and the messaging and the scriptures could be so beautiful,
Speaker 2: but the way that we translate them, depict them, share
Speaker 2: them with the world, it can be really damaging to
Speaker 2: people's connection to their faith and can be quite detrimental,
Speaker 2: which is why having a personal connection is just so important.
Speaker 2: Studying yourself is so important, and creating this idea of
Speaker 2: what even is God to me not everybody else, is
Speaker 2: such an important thing to navigate.
Speaker 1: It's so true and I love the example you gave
Speaker 1: because some of us develop a transactional relationship. And even
Speaker 1: for people who are spiritual, sometimes it becomes like if
Speaker 1: I didn't meditate, that I'm not I didn't do it
Speaker 1: enough minutes, I didn't go on the silent retreat, I'm
Speaker 1: not a good person. Then it becomes like what is
Speaker 1: motivating it? What is drawing it?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: Then am I praying or meditating because it is nourishing
Speaker 1: to me? Or just because I read or was told
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to? So if right, I had to be
Speaker 1: terrible for me if I don't, so is it duty
Speaker 1: and obligation or relationship and that this actually feeds me?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 1: And I will say that get what you know? The
Speaker 1: individual is important around like clarity and having that personal relationship.
Speaker 1: There's also a gift in.
Speaker 2: Community right to come together.
Speaker 1: Right like singing together, dancing together, donating our resources together,
Speaker 1: even studying sacred text together, because like you said, you
Speaker 1: know how we're interpreting it.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I remember my godmother, doctor Rinita Weems, is a womanist theologian,
Speaker 1: so looking at the Bible from the experiences of black women,
Speaker 1: and she was preaching this text and you know the
Speaker 1: text had like abuse of women in it, and she,
Speaker 1: you know, said and this is a suspect text.
Speaker 4: And I was like, what, like can you say that?
Speaker 1: And started asking the questions about like who told the story,
Speaker 1: like who has voice in the story? Whose voice do
Speaker 1: we hear? The voice do we not hear? And that
Speaker 1: you know. So that's a part of what we can
Speaker 1: do in community is start to like to look at it,
Speaker 1: to study it, to say what was happening during that
Speaker 1: time and how does that relate to me now? And
Speaker 1: how you know, how might that look in today's circumstance.
Speaker 2: I love that that's a suspect, right, we can analyze this.
Speaker 2: What Yeah, I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing.
Speaker 2: Is ending on any kind of prayer that you say
Speaker 2: to yourself or to God in a difficult time that
Speaker 2: you're going through. Do you have something that speaks to here?
Speaker 1: Yes? So when I am just gonna make it a
Speaker 1: sentence is make me ready, make me ready for whatever,
Speaker 1: because I don't know the fullness of the assignment, the calling,
Speaker 1: the who I'm gonna interact with today, So whatever is
Speaker 1: going to show up, make me ready.
Speaker 4: Make me ready?
Speaker 2: Is that your daily Yes?
Speaker 1: That also helps me around patience and time, because some
Speaker 1: of us have dreams for ourselves, and you know, as usual,
Speaker 1: we put like a time on it, like I want
Speaker 1: this by the time I'm thirty, by the time I'm
Speaker 1: by the time I'm fifty, like you know, and it's
Speaker 1: nice to have like goals. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: there's a preparation process where sometimes the door hasn't opened
Speaker 1: because I'm still in preparation, and so I give thanks
Speaker 1: that I'm being made ready.
Speaker 2: Make me ready. Yeah, I love that. Well, thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you. I so enjoyed speaking with you.
Speaker 2: Me too, me too, thank you for that. It's going
Speaker 2: to be so healing for so many and everybody please
Speaker 2: go check out Tama. She is just so wonderful. She's
Speaker 2: got social media, You've got your podcast, so many books
Speaker 2: which I'll be sharing on our page. But yes, thank
Speaker 2: you so much.
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.