WEBVTT - Yale University's Gautum Mukunda Talks Midterms, US Politics Under Trump 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. This is a joy

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<v Speaker 1>in incredibly well timed. Fourteen years ago, got a Macunda

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<v Speaker 1>at Yale. Now wrote a book called Indispensable. Sounds like

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<v Speaker 1>a song like, sounds like, you know, not something Taylor

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<v Speaker 1>Swift would do, but you know, Nancy Wilson, I can

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<v Speaker 1>see it's some wonderful New York cabare eight years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Indispensable When Leaders Really Matter? Chapter one, hunting the high

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<v Speaker 1>impact Leader, What did God's Name happen? Well?

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<v Speaker 2>When the book came out? One of the at the end,

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<v Speaker 2>the book came out, as you said in twenty twelve,

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<v Speaker 2>I said, you want to avoid people who have psychological

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<v Speaker 2>and personality disorders like narcissism, a history of bad management, failures,

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<v Speaker 2>out of the mainstream ideologies, and inherited wealth. That was

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve. And then my editor a few years later

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<v Speaker 2>emailed me and he said, do you think people misunderstood

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<v Speaker 2>what we were trying to say?

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<v Speaker 1>But Sarah, it is in the president with great respect

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<v Speaker 1>for the grind second term, even his supporters are exhausted.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is this is Donald Trump unchained and we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing that in ways that are I think Matt Iglesias

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<v Speaker 2>had a really good framing this week a few days

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<v Speaker 2>ago that it's worth golaying out that every president drops

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<v Speaker 2>in the opendon polls over time because they take political

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<v Speaker 2>capital and they spend it on things that they want

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<v Speaker 2>to achieve. And usually that is policy, right, that is

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<v Speaker 2>for Barack Obama, it was Obamacare, and then you know

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<v Speaker 2>the second term that was there's foreign policy achievements. Usually

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<v Speaker 2>you take political capital and you burn it to achieve policy.

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<v Speaker 2>This administration seems to be burning it for corruption. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what you have to call the Reparations Fund, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>this is, And that's like, that's telling you where their

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<v Speaker 2>priorities are and their numbers are going down and reflecting that.

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<v Speaker 3>Where the Democrats it seems like, boy, if I'm a

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<v Speaker 3>Democrat strategist, this is it doesn't get any better than

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<v Speaker 3>this yet, I'm not seeing any message coming out of

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<v Speaker 3>the Democrats, and the and the midterms are like a

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<v Speaker 3>cup of coffee away here.

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<v Speaker 2>The traditional formation of the Democratic Party is the circular

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<v Speaker 2>firing squad, and they're you know, they're living not to

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<v Speaker 2>tradition right now. You're seeing in Maine with Graham Platner's race,

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<v Speaker 2>where you know, they had a as good as a

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<v Speaker 2>fifty to fifty shot at taking the Senate back. And

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<v Speaker 2>now who knows. And so I think this is there

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<v Speaker 2>are a few compounded things here, right. So one is

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<v Speaker 2>the institutional party just doesn't have any power anymore. None

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<v Speaker 2>of them wanted Platner to be the nominee in Maine,

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<v Speaker 2>none of them, Right, everybody lined up behind Janet Mills

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<v Speaker 2>collapsed nothing, got nothing, She couldn't even make the primary.

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<v Speaker 2>And then at the same time, the party base tends

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<v Speaker 2>to fall in love with people who send signifiers as

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<v Speaker 2>opposed to having sort of real concrete like this is

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<v Speaker 2>someone who's actually got to deliver for us. This get

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<v Speaker 2>with Platner, who knows, you know, obviously, But I mean

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<v Speaker 2>Fetterman is the classic example. Fetterman was run was you

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<v Speaker 2>know the party left is that there are the people

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<v Speaker 2>who picked Fetterman, and when he was elected he went

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<v Speaker 2>to the exact opposite direction.

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<v Speaker 3>Is there a room for centrist lawmakers in either party

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<v Speaker 3>these days?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure? Less and less, but it's there. And you're starting,

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<v Speaker 2>I think to see in some places people who are

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<v Speaker 2>trying to understand that the big divide is not among Democrats,

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<v Speaker 2>is not people who want to move left or left

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<v Speaker 2>or you know right that I think that's a misnomer.

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<v Speaker 2>What you're seeing is what democratic the base really wants

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<v Speaker 2>is people who are fighting right. They're just they're tired

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<v Speaker 2>of losing, and it's not about left or right to

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<v Speaker 2>large chunks of the base. So Seth Molton is doing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, surprisingly well charge of challenging Ed Markey in Massachusetts.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, like conflict. Seth and I went to college together,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm biased, but like you know, you know, he

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<v Speaker 2>made the ballot like that, the chance of that you see,

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<v Speaker 2>you're seeing across the you know, in a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>different places people you know Mickey Ryl, like people who

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<v Speaker 2>weren't coming out as we're on the left there we

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<v Speaker 2>want to fight.

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<v Speaker 1>Got a Macunda with us. You get a huge response

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<v Speaker 1>when Professor mccund is on with this. So I got

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<v Speaker 1>two books indispensable and even better picking presidents. He said,

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<v Speaker 1>let me ask like a John Stewart question. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if you were on with John Stewart, I'm sure it

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<v Speaker 1>has something like this. Can you envision is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the four or five people I know qualified that we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to have a photographic image of the White House

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<v Speaker 1>three years, five years, eight years from now with an

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<v Speaker 1>actual rose garden, a east wing at least it's a

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<v Speaker 1>putty green, you know, whatever on there. They'll replace that construction,

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<v Speaker 1>they'll move out the UFC and all that, and they'll

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<v Speaker 1>take out the two flagpoles that look like a gas

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<v Speaker 1>station opening. Do you envision a repair of the White

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<v Speaker 1>House imagery?

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<v Speaker 2>We have I do because the rage in the Democratic

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<v Speaker 2>Party base at what's happened is it's difficult to express.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, very close friend of mine, former Republican governor,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just standing him a few days ago. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think you understand how angry people in the Democratic

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<v Speaker 2>Party are that they feel betrayed at a very deep level.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you may not have liked George W. Bush

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<v Speaker 2>as a president, but you thought he was on your

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<v Speaker 2>side this, you know, every day with Trump and especially

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<v Speaker 2>I think this fund, this Reparation's fund of one point

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<v Speaker 2>eight billion dollars of taxpayer money going to apparently January sixth,

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<v Speaker 2>attackers that there will be any Democratic president is going

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<v Speaker 2>to have to engage in those kind of symbolic acts

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<v Speaker 2>of tearing down of everything Trump did because the base

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<v Speaker 2>will not accept not doing it.

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<v Speaker 3>Is there a united or out there for this country?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think.

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<v Speaker 2>That is not the way that the activated base of

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<v Speaker 2>the Democratic Party wants to go? But he is, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the way a lot of Americans want to go.

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<v Speaker 2>And you could imagine an Andy Bisheer type figure, or

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is the name I'm hearing a lot

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<v Speaker 2>recently which I would not even six months ago, would

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<v Speaker 2>have said, no way, John. Assof people are talking about

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<v Speaker 2>him a lot, and you know, he gives a remarkably

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<v Speaker 2>good speech of people who are Southerners, you know, have

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<v Speaker 2>sort of figured out how to be able to appeal

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<v Speaker 2>to people who aren't on the activist base.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm begging redo indispensables. You can pop it off in

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<v Speaker 1>your free time. Got amacoda definitive at Yale University, or

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<v Speaker 1>I'm picking our presidents