Speaker 1: My guest today is American model Crystal Heffner, who is
Speaker 1: best known as two thousand and nine's Playboy Playmate of
Speaker 1: the Month for December, as well as being the third
Speaker 1: wife of Playboy publisher Hugh Hefner. Crystal's brand new book
Speaker 1: Only Say Good Things Surviving Playboy and Myself has been
Speaker 1: making headline since it's released last month as she opens
Speaker 1: up about her life in the Playboy mansion. This is
Speaker 1: just me with Crystal Hefner. Let's get into it. Well,
Speaker 1: very nice to meet you. So I had a holly on.
Speaker 1: I just thought that would be a good idea and
Speaker 1: a good conversation. And I used to have an agent
Speaker 1: that also represented Kendra, So like your, your world was
Speaker 1: peripherally in my in my vision, very peripherally. And I
Speaker 1: did live in la and was a hostess a La
Speaker 1: Scala in my twenties and some of thirties, and I
Speaker 1: used to hear about the Playboy parties. So but I
Speaker 1: was yeah, and I would I would have died to go.
Speaker 1: And I was never invited. I wasn't part of that group.
Speaker 1: I don't think I added any value or anything. But
Speaker 1: so like I knew how iconic and prevalent. They were
Speaker 1: in La the fiction, absolutely, you know, and very reputable
Speaker 1: and very successful and very respected people were always there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there were, and there were a lot of Yeah.
Speaker 2: It was like an a list type of vibe of
Speaker 2: the Playboy Mansion for sure.
Speaker 1: Which is crazy if you think about it now, because
Speaker 1: you're thinking about the Jeffrey Epstein Island and you're thinking
Speaker 1: about all the people like former presidents and titans of industry.
Speaker 1: So I just keep making that parallel to this situation
Speaker 1: and hearing your story and Holly's story and what I'm reading.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I think Helf wasn't necessarily a predator.
Speaker 2: I think there would be more a much more, you know,
Speaker 2: lawsuits against him. But this was also a time before
Speaker 2: Me Too. Me Too happened a month after hef died,
Speaker 2: so it's almost like, wow, he left just in time,
Speaker 2: like his specific moment in history that was just perfect
Speaker 2: for him, and then he just pieced out like right
Speaker 2: at the perfect time. I remember when he was still alive,
Speaker 2: the Cosby stuff had just started coming out, and you know,
Speaker 2: he knew that, he knew that Cosby was not the
Speaker 2: best guy. For sure.
Speaker 1: Well, I definitely want to get into you, and that
Speaker 1: obviously for you to be here, it's because your identity
Speaker 1: is definitely tied to playboy Hugh Hefner. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: you're trying to maybe this book is closure for you,
Speaker 1: so you can have your own identity in your own
Speaker 1: life and it's not to find you, but it is
Speaker 1: also part of your story. So I'm sure you want
Speaker 1: to kind of just like say it in your own terms,
Speaker 1: your own on your in your own words, on your
Speaker 1: own terms, and like get it out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's helpful in the healing process.
Speaker 2: There were a lot of things that happened there. I
Speaker 2: didn't fully realize until after that messed me up a
Speaker 2: bit and created I had this narrative for seventy years.
Speaker 2: He just he stuck so hard at this narrative. He
Speaker 2: has three thousand scrap books that just document his life
Speaker 2: from the very beginning all the way to the end.
Speaker 2: He asked us to put to put all like the
Speaker 2: obituaries and photos of him like at Westwood Memorial and
Speaker 2: the end. And I think he believed that these books
Speaker 2: would be studied for generations and generations, and he truly
Speaker 2: felt like he was an icon and a gift to
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Well, it's first you said that you don't think that
Speaker 1: he was necessarily a predator. But one what I've read
Speaker 1: about you n Holly describing things as Stockholm and like
Speaker 1: you didn't really realize what you were necessarily in. It
Speaker 1: felt like a cult. It's submissive and obedient and behave
Speaker 1: and all that. So, like, what if that's not a
Speaker 1: word for that, because you're praying on the week if
Speaker 1: you're looking for a certain type that's way younger and
Speaker 1: that you can be a power figure in their life.
Speaker 1: So if that's not a predator, what is that true?
Speaker 2: I believe that that is a predator. I think what
Speaker 2: I meant by that, by what I said was that,
Speaker 2: you know, he's not the type of person that would
Speaker 2: like force women against their will or drug people's drinks
Speaker 2: or things like that. But got it, Yeah, he did.
Speaker 2: I guess pray on young women. I was twenty one
Speaker 2: when I went into the mansion. I came from a
Speaker 2: broken home and a broken family. I think that younger
Speaker 2: girls are easier to manipulate. When I was twenty one,
Speaker 2: I felt like I was a grown up. But now
Speaker 2: at thirty seven, I look back and like I was
Speaker 2: I was just a baby, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, true, because I do remember I told this one
Speaker 1: I was talking to Holly being in La and there
Speaker 1: were some parties that were like skis crazy, Like you'd
Speaker 1: go to Malibu and you'd go and there was a
Speaker 1: lot of like coke and a lot of like just
Speaker 1: deviance and you kind of are young and you don't
Speaker 1: it feels uncomfortable, but you don't know why it must
Speaker 1: be so wrong because everybody's there and seeming like it's right.
Speaker 1: Like I just will always remember hearing about this pajama
Speaker 1: party and I didn't, and I'm so so naive that
Speaker 1: I went with my girlfriend. I think I was a
Speaker 1: hostess at the time and I was young, wanted to
Speaker 1: be an actress. And we showed up and I was
Speaker 1: wearing cow flannel pajamas. But they called it a pajama party.
Speaker 1: But it was really like everybody in like really sexy
Speaker 1: lingerie and the men were wearing like tight, you know, underwear,
Speaker 1: like things that you probably saw every time at the Mansion.
Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, it made me feel really really
Speaker 1: dark and uncomfortable. And I will be honest, I wanted
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable there, like I didn't know what was
Speaker 1: wrong with me that it didn't feel right?
Speaker 2: That's really sad. I'm just thinking about you showing up
Speaker 2: in your little cow costume, your calpajamas, and yeah, it's
Speaker 2: like you're not cool unless you're showing off your body,
Speaker 2: which is.
Speaker 1: Right, but being very sexual and it was like lingerie.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I was like a sexual person
Speaker 1: in that way, like I could be maybe with one.
Speaker 1: But so that was a lot of currency in La overall,
Speaker 1: and you were in the middle of it. And so
Speaker 1: I ask you, as a young girl, being from a
Speaker 1: broken home, were you predispoke? Did you were you promiscuous
Speaker 1: in high school? Were you like very sexual? Did you
Speaker 1: shield other things with sexuality? Because it can go both ways.
Speaker 1: Many people go to try to get love from sex
Speaker 1: in high school and college. You don't understand the girl
Speaker 1: who's sleeping with the whole hockey team because you know
Speaker 1: that's not going to end well. But in the moment,
Speaker 1: each hockey player they feel like is going to give
Speaker 1: them love or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I lost my high school sweetheart and that
Speaker 2: was very hard. He died in the war in Iraq.
Speaker 2: And after that, I think I was about eighteen nineteen
Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, people were paying attention to
Speaker 2: me in that way, and I just thought, oh, I
Speaker 2: can use it, like sexuality as a tool basically. And
Speaker 2: I feel that was like an option for women to
Speaker 2: just it still is, and I do think it helped
Speaker 2: with the Playboy Mansion and getting in there. If I
Speaker 2: didn't have implants and I wasn't dressed in a skimpy
Speaker 2: French made outfit, Heff would have just looked right past me.
Speaker 2: If I was wearing the kappajamas, I don't think it
Speaker 2: would have invited me.
Speaker 1: In, right, And do you think that? So, first of all,
Speaker 1: anybody who's going to deny that using their sexuality or
Speaker 1: the way they look as a tool is something that
Speaker 1: if you have it, you're not going to use it
Speaker 1: is lying like it's just it's part of it, and
Speaker 1: it's confused. And I wonder if it's a curse being
Speaker 1: attractive and having that sect and being so you know,
Speaker 1: looking so good, because then you're not focusing on your
Speaker 1: mind or your intelligence or your business acumen, and neither
Speaker 1: is anyone else. So how has that been part of
Speaker 1: your life?
Speaker 2: You know, around that time before the mansion, it was
Speaker 2: a time when Pamela Anderson and Jenny McCarthy and Carmen
Speaker 2: Electra were super famous, and you could just feel this
Speaker 2: sexual energy just coming up, using their sexuality as a tool,
Speaker 2: just oozing off of like pages of magazines in the news.
Speaker 2: And so that's around that time, that's kind of what
Speaker 2: you aspire to be. You're like, oh, these women are powerful,
Speaker 2: they have the world at their feet, Like I want
Speaker 2: to be just like them. So then you get the
Speaker 2: boob job and bleach the hair, and you're like, wow,
Speaker 2: I could really be somebody if I was like if
Speaker 2: I was like them, And I think that's kind of
Speaker 2: how it started off for me. But over time, and
Speaker 2: your value is just skin deep. It really eats at
Speaker 2: your soul when you're only valued for what you look
Speaker 2: like and you're constantly trying to keep up, keep up
Speaker 2: with appearances. You know, hefwoods say, you know you're getting
Speaker 2: fat or your nails or your hair, just picking at me.
Speaker 2: And in the beginning, I thought, oh, I can do better, like,
Speaker 2: oh I can be I can be better. I can
Speaker 2: do better, But over time it's it's it just made
Speaker 2: me angry. And that was also time with social media,
Speaker 2: I was posting bikini photos. It's like twenty fourteen, and
Speaker 2: and I realized, I like, I'm contributing to this. It's toxic,
Speaker 2: it's misogynistic, like a misogynistic culture. I'm contribute contributing to it.
Speaker 2: It sucks and it It took time and just learning
Speaker 2: and the time shifting to fully realize that your your
Speaker 2: value isn't what you look like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's been one of the things about the
Speaker 1: Kardashians that in the past I've discussed and I I
Speaker 1: don't know if I don't see it as much, or
Speaker 1: maybe they're not as in the same position they were before,
Speaker 1: but I don't see it as much. But as a
Speaker 1: mother of a teen, I was thinking about just it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. If it does matter, if they're all amazing, brilliant,
Speaker 1: lovely people, the message being put out is lose the
Speaker 1: weight in two weeks to get on the met Gala,
Speaker 1: the filtering of the pictures, that editing the bones out
Speaker 1: and the wastes and the butts, and Kylie Jenner doesn't
Speaker 1: look anything like what she looked like. And so that's
Speaker 1: their business, but their currency. And so yesterday you're watching
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg talking and trying to defend the fact that
Speaker 1: it's been proven that teen girls are having massive anxiety
Speaker 1: and major body security issues that are leading to real
Speaker 1: problems and suicide from social media. So that's where that
Speaker 1: connection is. And sometimes I feel like, you know, having
Speaker 1: to say the difficult things against really popular families is
Speaker 1: but trying to do it in a constructive way is
Speaker 1: challenging because they're so you know, but there is a fact.
Speaker 1: It's a fact that this is like an influence on people.
Speaker 1: And you experienced it too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard and it is toxic, and it's hurting
Speaker 2: young girls. You know. I think that the Kardashians are
Speaker 2: brilliant and they've created this huge empire for themselves. The
Speaker 2: thing that sucks is the youth cells and beauty cells.
Speaker 2: But I think times are changing a bit, you know.
Speaker 2: I'm seeing people like that would be considered older, like
Speaker 2: in ads now and Sephora and things like that. I
Speaker 2: think it's shifting a bit too. But if the Kardashians
Speaker 2: helped with the message of just loving yourself, like self love,
Speaker 2: self acceptance, I think girls that look up to them
Speaker 2: that would be much healthier. You can't keep up with them.
Speaker 2: It's hundreds of thousands of dollars of surgery. Uh. The
Speaker 2: other day I saw Kim Kardashian posting, Uh, just psoriasis.
Speaker 2: It's like all over our big big patches, like all
Speaker 2: of our legs and everywhere. And I just think to myself, like,
Speaker 2: you keep putting this like toxic stuff in your body.
Speaker 2: It's not like nothing is like natural from the earth.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, these the fillers and implants and
Speaker 2: all these things, and your body's gonna have a reaction.
Speaker 2: You're gonna have to pay for that later.
Speaker 1: And that's it's very interesting.
Speaker 2: It's sad.
Speaker 1: That's that movie Death Becomes Her when everybody's just getting
Speaker 1: all the surgery and plastic and everything, and like their
Speaker 1: their their ears and everything starts falling off because they
Speaker 1: look young and they're trying to chase you. Their body
Speaker 1: starts falling apart. Yeah, so you were in La and
Speaker 1: well you lived in San Diego and you go to
Speaker 1: the Playboy mansion and you're chosen, and I can see
Speaker 1: the allure in that like that, we can all just judge.
Speaker 1: It's like very not unlike the Housewives. Didn't she know
Speaker 1: what she signed up for? But I imagine it's not
Speaker 1: on the first day, like it's an evolution. You just somehow.
Speaker 1: Holly said it was seven years later and she couldn't
Speaker 1: believe that had been seven years. So, you know, you
Speaker 1: had a curfew and you had a small budget, and
Speaker 1: were you on the show too?
Speaker 2: I was on season six of The Girl's next Door
Speaker 2: and you know, half made four hundred thousand dollars an
Speaker 2: episode and I didn't make anything.
Speaker 1: Wow, And you knew that then or you found it
Speaker 1: out later?
Speaker 2: Now? Then I knew that hef and the producer because
Speaker 2: he would always have him on speakerphone, Kevin Burns. They
Speaker 2: would talk, oh, he just picked it up in four
Speaker 2: hundred thousand each episode and eight episodes, and so I
Speaker 2: would hear they would all brag with each other. And
Speaker 2: I didn't get paid anything for The Girls next Door
Speaker 2: season six. I was made to feel like, oh, I
Speaker 2: should just be so lucky to be there, and I
Speaker 2: didn't want to do it. I never wanted to be famous.
Speaker 2: That was never my goal. Never wanted to be an
Speaker 2: actress or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Fascinating. So did you feel that you were exploited by
Speaker 1: E or it was just hef like because are they
Speaker 1: this goes on with Bravo and Housewives they should be
Speaker 1: lucky to be there, and me, Bethany Frankel, I'd be nothing. Everybody,
Speaker 1: I'd be nothing if I was never on the Housewives,
Speaker 1: Like that's what it's been boiled down to.
Speaker 2: I hate that because it's like if if it wasn't that,
Speaker 2: like you have the personality to, you know, be the
Speaker 2: best in another situation. So yeah, I hate it when
Speaker 2: people people say things like that, And yeah, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of things were unfair. When Hef had asked me
Speaker 2: to marry him, they were filming another show called Marrying
Speaker 2: Hef It was going to be on Lifetime. I found out.
Speaker 2: I found out they were making eight hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: for a two hour special wow, and my talent fee
Speaker 2: was twenty five hundred. So it's weird. It's strange because
Speaker 2: a lot of people, I'm like, ninety nine point nine
Speaker 2: percent of the comments from the book are incredible, but that,
Speaker 2: like the troll percentage is like profiting off a dead
Speaker 2: man and all this stuff. I was like, did we
Speaker 2: ever think about how he profited off of me personally?
Speaker 2: Or did we ever think about how profited profited off
Speaker 2: of all of these women? For years and years and years,
Speaker 2: all the way to the very very first issue Marilyn Monroe.
Speaker 2: He bought her photos from a calendar company, put him
Speaker 2: in the put him in the magazine. She didn't get
Speaker 2: a dime, and she started the whole empire. Now I
Speaker 2: was buried next to her, and she has no say
Speaker 2: and whose bones are buried next to her for all eternity?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's insane. Wow. Okay, So you walk
Speaker 1: into this party and you feel lucky to be chosen,
Speaker 1: you know. And the way it's described and what I
Speaker 1: was reading is like multiple people, we're having sex with
Speaker 1: him in one space.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The first night in his bedroom there twins
Speaker 2: were there, which to me they were sisters. They were nineteen.
Speaker 2: It's disgusting, you know. I remember him holding them on
Speaker 2: each side of him and like looking up into this
Speaker 2: mirror and he's like, my babies. Wow, I'm just like,
Speaker 2: these girls are nineteen.
Speaker 1: And why did you like, so, what did you feel
Speaker 1: disgusting about yourself? Like did you feel like it was prostitution?
Speaker 1: Like what? What? What was going through your mind? Like
Speaker 1: going there and being in a French maid costume is
Speaker 1: one thing, but like having sex with him, and he's
Speaker 1: and I'm not. I promise you on my life, I'm
Speaker 1: not judging at oh I don't like Yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to like really understand I'm not and I would never
Speaker 1: have you on here to like then beat you down.
Speaker 1: It's not I I'm You're a smart girl, you're a
Speaker 1: beautiful girl. You could be with anybody you want in
Speaker 1: the world, with or without have So it's the something
Speaker 1: fucked up that went down. And I kind of want
Speaker 1: to like no, because people have daughters, go off to college,
Speaker 1: go off you by the selves want to be actors
Speaker 1: as you cannot put them in bubble wrap, so like
Speaker 1: you're someone's daughter.
Speaker 2: My parents came from England. They didn't have green cards.
Speaker 2: My dad died and it was just my mom and I.
Speaker 2: We were renting a bedroom in some other family's house
Speaker 2: like we had We had nothing. So yeah, I always
Speaker 2: felt small. I always felt that everyone was better than me.
Speaker 2: And when I went into the mansion I met Heff.
Speaker 2: Even though it was like this kind of twisted situation
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize the magnitude until much later, I
Speaker 2: did feel like, oh, this is somewhere I could feel
Speaker 2: safe or feel that I could belong like I can
Speaker 2: belong somewhere.
Speaker 1: Finally, that sounds like a cult, which is hoppened.
Speaker 2: It was definitely, it was definitely a cult. There's a
Speaker 2: cult leader. You do everything they tell you to do.
Speaker 2: If you slip up and get in trouble, like, you
Speaker 2: feel guilty and terrible and you're going to do better.
Speaker 2: I spoke to two women that were in a cult,
Speaker 2: and we all reminded ourselves of each other. It was
Speaker 2: it was a cult for sure.
Speaker 1: That that makes it make sense to me, Like because
Speaker 1: everybody could be logical and all the moms with our
Speaker 1: cross body bags and our lattes can be like, oh
Speaker 1: she knew and gossip. But like you were young, you
Speaker 1: were twenty one, You walked in there. And if you
Speaker 1: get into a cult, your mind is completely fucked up
Speaker 1: because everything you're saying, you didn't get paid, you had
Speaker 1: a curfew, you got in trouble like and so what
Speaker 1: did make you stay? What did you like? Did you
Speaker 1: love him? Did you love the experience like you felt
Speaker 1: like you belonged like? What made you keep going? And
Speaker 1: did you ever try to get out in the middle
Speaker 1: of it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think with colts you get a little bit brainwashed,
Speaker 2: you know, as impressionable. And I'm in this place where
Speaker 2: he's the king of his castle. He's got about seventy
Speaker 2: staff that are all yes men all around him, and
Speaker 2: it's this big bubble and you get kind of stuck
Speaker 2: in it and sucked in and and you know, my
Speaker 2: thirty seven year old self that has more wisdom. If
Speaker 2: I in my twenty one year old body would be
Speaker 2: punching him in the face, like and calling him discussing
Speaker 2: and what are you doing to these women? But I
Speaker 2: didn't have the tools then, and I was trying to
Speaker 2: fit in and I thought, I'm going to do whatever
Speaker 2: this man wants me to do to be like the favorite.
Speaker 1: Or the best.
Speaker 2: And it's gross.
Speaker 1: That reminds me. That's why I always say that Housewives
Speaker 1: is like a cult, because everybody's trying to kiss up
Speaker 1: to the leader and be the favorite and everybody, you
Speaker 1: know it really it's not. They're not living together, but
Speaker 1: everybody wants to be the favorite, and people want to
Speaker 1: be there. And it's funny because I was criticized like that.
Speaker 1: We you know, everyone knows what they're signing up for.
Speaker 1: And I will be honest at this point now in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. I think everybody does know what they're
Speaker 1: signing up for. But and back then it sounded like
Speaker 1: a good idea. It was just like a nice show
Speaker 1: and you're making you know, you're making well, you know,
Speaker 1: make money yet but you eventually do you not making money?
Speaker 1: That's even crazier, Like, I don't you you were literally
Speaker 1: just getting to live in this nice house, but taking
Speaker 1: up years of your life. And then we get into
Speaker 1: were you Did you ever love him?
Speaker 2: I never was in love with half right off the bat, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: if this man wants four women in the bed with him,
Speaker 2: he cannot love me. Like that's it's a joke. That's
Speaker 2: a joke. So for what it's worth. You know, I
Speaker 2: didn't know then. I didn't know then that he was
Speaker 2: a narcissist. Now I know that he's a narcissist. Now
Speaker 2: all of his behavior makes more sense to me. You know,
Speaker 2: we didn't really use those terms when I was when
Speaker 2: I was there, and now I'm like, okay, it's all
Speaker 2: about him. I just be his mirror and reflect his
Speaker 2: self importance back at him. It's everything he wants to
Speaker 2: do sexually. Who gives a shit about me? It's all
Speaker 2: about what he wants and his stupid little ritual and
Speaker 2: routine that he has. And yeah, his friend would bring
Speaker 2: articles for him and just anything related to himself. That's
Speaker 2: all he wanted to talk about. And so as long
Speaker 2: as you're doing that, he likes you. And that's probably
Speaker 2: how Holly became so close with him or the number
Speaker 2: one or whatever. And same with me, is that we
Speaker 2: just followed along better than the other people and made
Speaker 2: completely lost ourselves to just mirror him.
Speaker 1: You behaved, it's terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you lose yourself because the real meat wouldn't bleach
Speaker 2: my scalp and burn my head. The real meat wouldn't
Speaker 2: wear stupid little outfits and stupid heels to all these
Speaker 2: parties and try and keep sexualizing myself. Like now, like
Speaker 2: I've thrown all of that stuff away. It just makes
Speaker 2: me sick. I'm over it. But I didn't have the
Speaker 2: tools then be so weird.
Speaker 1: Because you don't recognize that person.
Speaker 2: No, I feel sorry for myself at that young age
Speaker 2: and manipulated by an eighty year old man when I
Speaker 2: was twenty one, and I remember being there and just
Speaker 2: being so in it that he half would do interviews
Speaker 2: and say, oh, the sound of young girls laughter like
Speaker 2: keeps me young? And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that's me. Wow,
Speaker 2: I feel so special, And now I'm like, yuck. It's
Speaker 2: like goes into those conspiracy theories of like eating the
Speaker 2: blood of children or something. Right, but it was it's gross.
Speaker 2: And I remember when Holly's book came out and how
Speaker 2: dare she say all these bad things about hef But
Speaker 2: but now now I'm like, She's right, it's weird.
Speaker 1: Do you have any relationship with the other women or
Speaker 1: is it too traumatizing like to talk to them about this.
Speaker 2: I talked to Kendra the most. I think that Holly
Speaker 2: and Bridgett there's still some kind of I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just wish we could all get along. And we're
Speaker 2: not going to agree on everything, but I just wish
Speaker 2: we could get along. At the Playboy Mansion, that whole
Speaker 2: experience is something that was like some weird social experiment
Speaker 2: in time that will never be repeated again. So the
Speaker 2: people that went through there I want to stay connected
Speaker 2: to because it's it's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's an experience, but like a cult, you're sort of
Speaker 1: compartmentalized and often pitted against each other, and so the
Speaker 1: things that happened in that extraordinary circumstanstance, then is affecting
Speaker 1: your relationships now that if you met them at a
Speaker 1: restaurant or in a store, you might be friends with them.
Speaker 1: But because you all went through this harrowing that's housewives too,
Speaker 1: their housewes that hate me, their housewives that hate me
Speaker 1: based on something I might have said about a blog
Speaker 1: or based on being in this extraordinary experiment with them
Speaker 1: that doesn't reflect real life or who I am or
Speaker 1: who they are. You know, people ratting each other out,
Speaker 1: people saying that someone was really broke, this one cheated
Speaker 1: on their husband, you know what I mean. It just
Speaker 1: you do different things in that environment. And I think
Speaker 1: that's probably why you're saying that you don't currently have
Speaker 1: a relation with other people in that experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it gets ingrained in us in
Speaker 2: a completely cellular level to all hate each other.
Speaker 1: It's sad exactly in a time where we're supposed to
Speaker 1: be host me too. These things are interesting that they happen,
Speaker 1: They still happen, and the men somehow are at the
Speaker 1: top of the realm. Yes, fascinating. So and I by
Speaker 1: reading about this sect well, first of all I'm picking
Speaker 1: up that you feel you're probably still really working through
Speaker 1: this in therapy or like how are you coping? Are
Speaker 1: you still feeling shame as you go through this experience
Speaker 1: talking about it through this book, because writing it is
Speaker 1: one thing, then it goes to print and now here
Speaker 1: you are like living it again.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think what I'm trying to do is just
Speaker 2: give myself grace and not be so hard on myself.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that place was very hard, and this a
Speaker 2: lot of gross stuff. You know, a lot of this
Speaker 2: celebrities that even came through there, Like a lot of
Speaker 2: those men were gross, like yep, gross, perver, misogynistic, nasty people.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, Hollywood is gross. You know, people people
Speaker 2: have these certain dreams and it's it's all smoke and mirrors.
Speaker 2: It's disgusting. Everywhere you turn, it's it sucks and it's
Speaker 2: not real. And people idolize fame and Hollywood and I
Speaker 2: think trash. Literally you go down to Hollywood Boulevard and
Speaker 2: there's just trash everywhere.
Speaker 1: By the way, I have I know all the guys
Speaker 1: who are at those parties, and I know there's scumbags,
Speaker 1: And that's what I asked Holly, but she didn't have
Speaker 1: like an answer to this. I was wondering, well, where
Speaker 1: do you live now?
Speaker 2: I live in West Hollywood. I'm still in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: but I go between here in Hawaii. I have a
Speaker 2: farm in Hawaii, which.
Speaker 1: Is oh yeah, Well, I'm saying, when you see some
Speaker 1: of these people, you must run into people in LA
Speaker 1: that like you're both looking like they're they're hiding because
Speaker 1: I know that you've seen what they've been down with
Speaker 1: because you're on front lines.
Speaker 2: Is that disgusting? I've had certain big actors after Half died,
Speaker 2: like one of them said, oh, can we continue that
Speaker 2: vibe at my place? I'm like, that's disgusting. And then
Speaker 2: I had another when Half wasn't well, I had another
Speaker 2: one say can we go to lunch? Because you know,
Speaker 2: Half needs to pass the torch to someone and it
Speaker 2: might as well be me.
Speaker 1: Wow, Like, what the heck?
Speaker 2: What do these men think? Why do they think they're
Speaker 2: God's gift?
Speaker 1: It's disgusting, It's unbelievable, and it's so funny because that's
Speaker 1: what that pretty woman seeing was about. And like Julia
Speaker 1: Roberts is there, and then Jason Alexander thinks he's just
Speaker 1: gonna grab Julia Roberts for himself, you know, like she's
Speaker 1: just like.
Speaker 2: So many Jason, Alexander's a.
Speaker 1: Piece of property. Yeah. So, and it's interesting that, well,
Speaker 1: so you get married, do you have friends at this time?
Speaker 1: Are all your friends in that that you think? Are
Speaker 1: your friends in that world? Are you talking to friends
Speaker 1: family about getting married? Are they like, she's your nuts?
Speaker 1: And like what about that?
Speaker 2: I just my mom at that point, and she she
Speaker 2: encouraged it. She she had gone to the Playboy Club
Speaker 2: in London, and you know, she's British and she's just fun,
Speaker 2: life of the party. She loved going to the parties.
Speaker 2: Now I speak to her and she said, I had
Speaker 2: no idea. It was like that if I did, you know,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want you to go there. But so she
Speaker 2: feels shamed too. Yeah, I think so. It was hard
Speaker 2: for you to read the book?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. That reminds me of Paris and Kathy,
Speaker 1: with Paris going to that horrible boarding school and Kathy
Speaker 1: oh yeah, noing, you know, having to hear about it,
Speaker 1: read about it, and feel partially responsible as a mother.
Speaker 1: Your number one job is to protect your daughter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she thought she was doing the right thing
Speaker 2: for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the sexual descriptions that you give of hef sound
Speaker 1: like that, like he couldn't get it up, he couldn't
Speaker 1: keep it up, and he wasn't good in bed. So
Speaker 1: he put on this whole costume with his whole life
Speaker 1: of like sex, when it seems like it was like
Speaker 1: some real problem, like at the core, the one thing
Speaker 1: that he portrayed is the one thing that he couldn't do.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's it's crazy, and it's interesting you say
Speaker 2: that because it's so true. I remember going out with
Speaker 2: him and fans would just swarm him and be like, heth,
Speaker 2: you're the man. I want to be just like you everywhere,
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, heaf isn't even like himself. He's just
Speaker 2: pretending smoke and mirrors. He was this broken child. Everyone
Speaker 2: he had a crush on all liked somebody else. He
Speaker 2: was a nerd, and his first wife cheated on him,
Speaker 2: and he was just you know, had all of these
Speaker 2: stepbacks in life, and I think he just over His
Speaker 2: parents never showed him love, so he over compensated with
Speaker 2: this creation and this fantasy, and he never really knew
Speaker 2: how to love. He never really knew how to make love.
Speaker 2: He supposed to be this master at all of these things,
Speaker 2: and he wasn't. He had no idea. All he cared
Speaker 2: about is himself. So if he didn't even have the
Speaker 2: capacity to try and care or understand, you know, another person.
Speaker 2: So it's hard. It's just he's like the sad little
Speaker 2: boy that just was always a sad little boy. I
Speaker 2: felt sorry for him all I go up until he died.
Speaker 1: Well, that's common because I call it a trick guy.
Speaker 1: And girls need to watch out for these trick guys.
Speaker 1: They're the guys that are the dorks. So you think like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're just a cute, little dorky nerdy guy, and you
Speaker 1: think that that's gonna mean that they're gonna like treat
Speaker 1: you so well or be like the good guy. But
Speaker 1: that dorky nerdy guy sometimes is fucked up for the
Speaker 1: fact that girls would never give him attention or sleep
Speaker 1: with him in the earlier days, which does form how
Speaker 1: men are.
Speaker 2: Maybe Heff was just angry and took it out on
Speaker 2: all of us.
Speaker 1: I don't know, something something deep seated, you know, to show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's exerting power. I'm I'm, I'm gonna show them
Speaker 1: and I'm the powerful one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Do you date now? That must be challenging or has
Speaker 1: been challenging and trusting and trusting yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the beginning, dating was hard. I would run
Speaker 2: into situations where I felt controlled and manipulated. Still and
Speaker 2: a lot of that was okay. It was like a
Speaker 2: struggling musician, a struggling actor. So I'm thinking, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: here i am being controlled manipulated, and this time I'm
Speaker 2: paying the bills like this is this is getting is
Speaker 2: getting worse. So more more therapy and now you know
Speaker 2: I'm dating in the relationships are much you know, more
Speaker 2: healthy and happy.
Speaker 1: Well again, I'm fine. Hallie literally said she first went
Speaker 1: towards the same type of person, not realizing it might
Speaker 1: be a different package. But it was a similar type
Speaker 1: of person, so you have that in common, and then
Speaker 1: had to intervene for in what she was looking at, like,
Speaker 1: it's me, I'm the problem. It's me. I've got to
Speaker 1: be looking at different partners.
Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah. Now I cannot tolerate anything less than nurturing.
Speaker 1: And what about career? Now, so what is your own identity?
Speaker 1: What do you do for a living. How do you
Speaker 1: support yourself? What do you want to do? You're still young?
Speaker 1: What do you want to be when you grow up?
Speaker 2: My real job is I buy and flip properties. I've
Speaker 2: redesigned homes. I like to add a lot of natural elements,
Speaker 2: reclaim wood, and yeah, I just I'm a minimalist. So
Speaker 2: I have about six properties between California and Hawaii. When
Speaker 2: I was in therapy for five years, I remember the
Speaker 2: therapist saying, you know, whatever you're doing, now, make sure
Speaker 2: it has nothing to do with what you look like.
Speaker 2: So I don't do any like social media ads or
Speaker 2: anything to do with what I look like. It's all
Speaker 2: mainly house stuff.
Speaker 1: I do that a lot too. I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fun, it's creative. It's it's fun. It's yeah,
Speaker 2: it's nice.
Speaker 1: It's business, it's creative. There's an't you see transformation? When
Speaker 1: you say you have six properties, you have six that
Speaker 1: you keep or that you're flip. You're currently going to flip.
Speaker 2: Two of them. I'm building homes and I'll sell the homes,
Speaker 2: but the other four I'm keeping for now.
Speaker 1: Did leave He didn't seem to leave Holly anything. She
Speaker 1: wasn't married to him. Did you have a will. Did
Speaker 1: you get married and at least have a prenup or
Speaker 1: a will.
Speaker 2: We had a prenup, but it was very unfair. The
Speaker 2: first lawyer wouldn't sign it. I had to take it
Speaker 2: to someone else to sign it. And I think because
Speaker 2: I felt so trapped, I wanted to just start saving.
Speaker 2: I got I became a playmate and got some playmate money,
Speaker 2: and I just screw and grew, grew the money. I
Speaker 2: learned how to DJ. During the day. I would fly
Speaker 2: to Vegas and DJ and come straight back for movie night.
Speaker 2: And so I saved up some money and opened a
Speaker 2: secret LLC. I was able to buy a house, and
Speaker 2: from that I bought another house and another house, and
Speaker 2: so I was just I think back because I did
Speaker 2: feel trapped, but that at that point I had millions,
Speaker 2: and my mom said, you know, you can leave any
Speaker 2: time you want, and I remember saying, like, I can't
Speaker 2: leave him. He needs me. And this is you know, later,
Speaker 2: like a couple of years before he died, and I
Speaker 2: could have left and been fine.
Speaker 1: And you had millions while living in the playboy mansion,
Speaker 1: staying in the marriage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I definitely did.
Speaker 1: You weren't. Yeah, how did you earn millions while you
Speaker 1: were a prisoner?
Speaker 2: Right? I Like, I thought to myself because I would
Speaker 2: see women that bought a range Rover or like lubaitons,
Speaker 2: like girl, like buy a condo? What are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I had that mindset because yeah, I
Speaker 2: saved and I bought a house. I ended up buying
Speaker 2: another house. I was DJing. It was like seventy five
Speaker 2: hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: A wait, but this is aster you're saying, right, this
Speaker 1: is during wait, he let you. But that's what I
Speaker 1: don't understand. He was telling I'm reading that he gave
Speaker 1: people one thousand dollars a week and people had a curfew.
Speaker 1: So I would have thought, because men like to control financially,
Speaker 1: how did he let you buy a house? Who is
Speaker 1: like your lawyer?
Speaker 2: They didn't know? He didn't know.
Speaker 1: Well this is interesting, okay, so what the hell is
Speaker 1: this part? Like this is the me like every time,
Speaker 1: it's like a nugget that I'm like, we weren't even
Speaker 1: talking about. So wait a minute. So this is and
Speaker 1: this is what many women should do, like having a
Speaker 1: nest egg. This is you would never invest in a
Speaker 1: business that that someone said sixty percent chance it's going
Speaker 1: to fail, and that's most marriages. So it's hard to
Speaker 1: hear that women A obviously need to have a prenup,
Speaker 1: B need to have their own Everybody doesn't need to
Speaker 1: like put their money with somebody else's. So let's get
Speaker 1: down to this now. How are you saving while under
Speaker 1: the roof with Hugh Hefner, arguably one of the most
Speaker 1: controlling men I've ever heard about, who doesn't want anybody
Speaker 1: to have their own resources or job or time, how
Speaker 1: are you saving millions of dollars while under this roof?
Speaker 1: I need you to be specific. I need to understand.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, when I was first there, I was given
Speaker 2: a thousand dollars every Friday, and which is nothing, you know,
Speaker 2: for a twenty four seven job. And I remember the
Speaker 2: twins and I we had to go into HEF's room
Speaker 2: and basically beg him every Friday, have can we have
Speaker 2: our allowance? And he would open the locked cabinet and
Speaker 2: pull out an envelope with one hundred dollar bills and
Speaker 2: be like one hundred, two hundred, one hundred to you
Speaker 2: know for and just count it out for the three
Speaker 2: girls and then hand us these stacks and.
Speaker 1: That that alone is degrading, that you had to go
Speaker 1: beg for the scraps every week like dogs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt like a hooker, right, Okay, That's how
Speaker 2: I felt, And it was disgusting and demoralizing, and that
Speaker 2: that kind of ritual lit a fire inside me to
Speaker 2: where I'm like, I want to never have to do
Speaker 2: this ever again. Whenever I'm away from the situation and
Speaker 2: out of here, I want to make sure that I
Speaker 2: never have to be in this kind of thing ever again.
Speaker 2: And so I remember, have made me a playmate. I
Speaker 2: made twenty five thousand dollars. I wrote twenty five thousand
Speaker 2: on this little piece of paper, and every time I
Speaker 2: would then I would start saving the allowance and barely
Speaker 2: spending anything because we had no rent and all the things.
Speaker 2: So I was just trying to save as much as
Speaker 2: I could, and Heff would give us little extra things
Speaker 2: here and there, and sometimes I would lie and say
Speaker 2: it's for something, but I would just keep most of it.
Speaker 1: And just like you have the Handmaid, the Handmaid like
Speaker 1: figure out out, well, yeah, you have to lie.
Speaker 2: You'd have to. It's like, you know, at the same time,
Speaker 2: he's making four hundred thousand dollars for you know, an
Speaker 2: episode or episode of The Girl's next Door and we're
Speaker 2: making nothing. So I'm like, I gotta be smarter, smarter
Speaker 2: at this, and I learned how to DJ. I remember
Speaker 2: thinking like, I have no talent. I did a couple
Speaker 2: of playmate things during the day where I showed up
Speaker 2: and they give me nine hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: And he allowed that, like how did you do not
Speaker 1: tell it?
Speaker 2: If it was in the parameters, which was far im
Speaker 2: few in between. Usually the playmates were hired for night
Speaker 2: things that I couldn't go to. But I learned how
Speaker 2: to DJ, and then I got a job at the
Speaker 2: hard Rock Hotel in Las Vegas and they paid me
Speaker 2: seventy five hundred for an hour and a half, and
Speaker 2: so I would try and go like on Saturday and
Speaker 2: make it back before movie night. So I was like
Speaker 2: saving all of that. And then because I was at
Speaker 2: the Mansion, people paid attention to me. I know it's
Speaker 2: just through half, of course, but I'm like, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to use it to my advantage. Social media started
Speaker 2: coming out on Instagram twenty fourteen. A company called Skinny
Speaker 2: Bunny Tea asked me to promote so I'd be like
Speaker 2: a bikini and holding the skinny bunny tea and they'd
Speaker 2: pay me like seventy five hundred every time I posted
Speaker 2: like the and it was like once or twice a week,
Speaker 2: and I would just I would just start saving and
Speaker 2: start saving. And then I had a company in Australia
Speaker 2: I want to do a bikini line with me. And
Speaker 2: then I had another woman that wanted to do a
Speaker 2: laingerie company or a loungewear and so I'm just trying
Speaker 2: all these different avenue doscinating and I feel like financial
Speaker 2: abuse is a real thing and it sucks and it's hard.
Speaker 2: And I have a friend right now that's in a
Speaker 2: horrible marriage with this narcissist man who I keep telling you,
Speaker 2: I'm like, save, do online stuff to be like an
Speaker 2: online assistant because she has two kids.
Speaker 1: And I just do.
Speaker 2: Anything you can to save so you can leave him
Speaker 2: if you need to. I think it's so important. And invest,
Speaker 2: you know, I started investing tiny bits of money in
Speaker 2: like cryptocurrency, so I just it's instead of spending my
Speaker 2: time at the mansion wondering like what outfit I'm gonna wear,
Speaker 2: or like how to decorate for a party. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I need to be like financially literate.
Speaker 1: And that was me on The Housewives. I had a
Speaker 1: thousand dollars when I signed up. That was me on
Speaker 1: The Housewives. Everyone else was worrying about facials and diamonds
Speaker 1: and I was off to the races when it started,
Speaker 1: like already like off to the races. But that's why
Speaker 1: everyone was trying to play catch up with me for years.
Speaker 1: You know, that's because everyone wants to show how rich
Speaker 1: they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what more? Women need? That mindset of just yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm showing how rich you are, I think is another
Speaker 2: part of the thing, like part of the problem. I
Speaker 2: remember saving enough to get a Chanel bag was five
Speaker 2: thousand dollars and I put it on and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I feel nothing, Like where's the sparkly magic I'm supposed
Speaker 2: to And so I'm like, this is dumb. I just
Speaker 2: have this sitting here. And so I'm like, okay, Like
Speaker 2: materialism is not going to be my answer to anything.
Speaker 1: You're smart. You're smart, right, Like I.
Speaker 2: Tried, and you know, hef did buy us a house.
Speaker 2: He toward the end of his life, he did buy
Speaker 2: a house in West Hollywood. It was like a five
Speaker 2: million dollar house. Who's us half it myself?
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay.
Speaker 2: At that point he had sold the mansion and so
Speaker 2: he could stay there until he died. But the mansion
Speaker 2: was sold, and so he bought this house in case
Speaker 2: anything went down and we had to leave or somewhere
Speaker 2: for me to go if something happened to him. So
Speaker 2: I did have that house when.
Speaker 1: I left, and he left it to you. Yes, And
Speaker 1: do you do you think he loved you?
Speaker 2: I think he loved me the best way he knew
Speaker 2: how you know, I.
Speaker 1: Think you do more than any of the other people
Speaker 1: who was with you. Think he like was loyal toy
Speaker 1: in some different type of way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think toward the end, toward the end, I
Speaker 2: respected myself more. Toward the end, I got my implants
Speaker 2: taken out, I stopped bleaching my hair, and I did
Speaker 2: notice that he respected me. He respected me more. And
Speaker 2: I would like to hope that Hugh Afner learned some
Speaker 2: type of lesson and compassion or you know, don't chase
Speaker 2: after the wrong things. But but I don't know, maybe.
Speaker 1: Maybe well you were there at the end, like you
Speaker 1: were there when he died, and so was he. I
Speaker 1: don't remember. I didn't was he dying? Like was he
Speaker 1: in or was he just do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1: Was he in hospice or something? Or he just you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Like, did you know he was
Speaker 1: about to die? Because when people are sort of in
Speaker 1: hospit and like different people are walking through to like
Speaker 1: say their last things, some people do hear people say
Speaker 1: things that they've never heard, Like I was wanting that
Speaker 1: from my father in hospice, and he was the exact
Speaker 1: same way to till his last breath, Like I was
Speaker 1: trying to get something that I was never going to get.
Speaker 1: So what was that like for you? Was there some humanity?
Speaker 1: Did you get some connection and like him realizing what
Speaker 1: he had done or that it was fucked up? Or
Speaker 1: did he become somebody? Did he have some realization?
Speaker 2: I don't think that that he felt anything he did
Speaker 2: was fucked up his whole life. I think because of
Speaker 2: the narcissism, he just didn't believe that he did anything wrong.
Speaker 2: He got sick pretty quickly. It was a urinary tract infection.
Speaker 2: It was a regressive strain of equal A bacteria. Only
Speaker 2: one antibiotic was sensitive to it, so we tried that
Speaker 2: it didn't work. He went into sepsis. I you know,
Speaker 2: we had to just start IVS and things on him.
Speaker 2: And I remember asking him like, are you okay? And
Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm okay with kind of a
Speaker 2: defeated tone, and that was the last thing he ever said.
Speaker 2: He just yeah, I got worse and worse, and I
Speaker 2: had to make these decisions at the end of his life.
Speaker 2: It was hard because he never wanted to go to
Speaker 2: a hospital and he said, I want to just die
Speaker 2: in my bed. And so he went into sepsis, and
Speaker 2: the doctor said, if he stays here, he's going to die,
Speaker 2: but if he goes to the hospital, like maybe there's
Speaker 2: a thirty percent chance of him living.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And so I'm reading this advanced healthcare directive that somehow
Speaker 2: I'm like, how am I named? Is? Hugh Hafner's like
Speaker 2: the deciding person on this? And you at the time
Speaker 2: when he died, I was thirty one.
Speaker 1: Well okay, so you're thirty one and you're the person
Speaker 1: that's deciding what he's whether he's going to take a
Speaker 1: thirty percent chance or stay home. So let's hear this now.
Speaker 1: It's insane.
Speaker 2: I know. It said something about if I have a
Speaker 2: terminal illness, Like I just want to stay home, but
Speaker 2: if I can be saved, then take me somewhere or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, okay, he could potentially be saved. It's
Speaker 2: bacterial infection. Do we just take him? Do we what
Speaker 2: do we do? He was so bad, you know, like, okay,
Speaker 2: we might take him and just even moving it might
Speaker 2: be so difficult and thirty percent chances of survival. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm crying, and I stepped out of the room because
Speaker 2: I didn't want him to hear any of this that's
Speaker 2: going on. And I was talking to his assistant and
Speaker 2: his estate attorney. And while I was trying to decide
Speaker 2: this in the other room, one of the nurses came
Speaker 2: into where I was and said, you know, he's gone.
Speaker 1: Oh thank god, you didn't have to make that decision.
Speaker 2: So he decided. Yeah, he decided for us.
Speaker 1: But did you were you sad when he was dying
Speaker 1: or like, were you kind of almost relieved? Like people
Speaker 1: have weird thoughts that they're not supposed to be having
Speaker 1: when someone's dying. That's been traumatic for them, So will
Speaker 1: you kind of relieved that he died or like not
Speaker 1: wishing it? But like, you know what I mean, were
Speaker 1: you conflicted? Because I mean, this is crazy that you
Speaker 1: had this experience with him and now you're the person
Speaker 1: that he's left to make this decision and you're crying
Speaker 1: and what were you crying? Why were you crying?
Speaker 2: I think it all happened so fast, and the topic
Speaker 2: of death is hard for me, so it was just
Speaker 2: going through that again. And once he passed away, I
Speaker 2: remember like, I don't even want to know what day
Speaker 2: it is. I don't want to know what time it is.
Speaker 2: And I felt guilty, which is strange. I felt like, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe there's something we could have done differently for him.
Speaker 2: And yes, it's weird, and I think it's how people
Speaker 2: would feel if they were in a cult, you know,
Speaker 2: and the leader died, you'd feel sad and confused and guilty.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and it took time. I put out a statement,
Speaker 2: a very positive statement, but it took time. It took
Speaker 2: maybe five years to truly like peel it away and
Speaker 2: and understand.
Speaker 1: I believe that going through these things that are so
Speaker 1: abnormal that you thought was normal is it takes a
Speaker 1: long time for it to get out of your body,
Speaker 1: like you could be away from it but like for
Speaker 1: it to like on a cellular level. Leave it's very
Speaker 1: you know how that goes with any like and death
Speaker 1: is confusing anyway, like you don't have to two things
Speaker 1: can be happening at the same time. You can think
Speaker 1: he's a disgusting pig, but you also you're Some children
Speaker 1: love parents that put out the cigarettes on them. They
Speaker 1: want to go back to them like that happened. Like
Speaker 1: so you can feel a feeling two conflicting feelings like
Speaker 1: it's not binary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1: I'm speechless. Wow. So how does it feel to have
Speaker 1: written the book? Did you get everything out that you
Speaker 1: wanted to say? Did you forget things? Did you block
Speaker 1: things out? And like, honestly are people judging you? Like
Speaker 1: where where is all that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I feel like the book could have been,
Speaker 2: you know, three times as long. But I you know,
Speaker 2: I've I had stories and I crafted them together in
Speaker 2: a way that I thought told it in the best way.
Speaker 2: And the book has been healing. It's resonating with so
Speaker 2: many people. I've had women reach out to me, so
Speaker 2: many women reaching out like, oh, playboy was my dream.
Speaker 2: And as I sit in my normal house in a
Speaker 2: town no one's heard of in Indiana. I'm, you know,
Speaker 2: grateful that it didn't happen for me, and thank you
Speaker 2: and thanks for lifting the lid and being light. And
Speaker 2: I'm going to have my daughter read this book. And
Speaker 2: you know, it's the book I wish I have when
Speaker 2: I was twenty one, because it was nothing, nothing like that.
Speaker 1: I like it as a book for when someone who's
Speaker 1: twenty one. But I like for you what you were
Speaker 1: saying about your friend who's in that marriage. Like I
Speaker 1: think that you're somehow like listening to you talk about
Speaker 1: somebody in a bad relationship, prepare themselves, take care of themselves,
Speaker 1: not just make some rash decision, because so many women
Speaker 1: are controlled by a situation. And you brought up financial abuse,
Speaker 1: which happens a lot and divorce, Like some people just
Speaker 1: want to say uncle and get out, and they'll settle
Speaker 1: for almost nothing because the the and it's usually the man, sorry,
Speaker 1: is keeping the lights off, like they won't turn the
Speaker 1: electric bill on, and you're like begging them, or they're
Speaker 1: controlling the custody schedule. And I went through ten years
Speaker 1: as a wealthy, successful woman who is you know, has
Speaker 1: some power being tortured in a divorce. So like you can,
Speaker 1: you can help women lock the door before they get robbed,
Speaker 1: like just you know, just because you're if you're miserable, okay,
Speaker 1: well get your shit organized. Like you sound like you
Speaker 1: were sort of miserable and in something bad, but something
Speaker 1: told you to be preparing yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, And I do really help to
Speaker 2: help a man. Like when they read the book, and
Speaker 2: you know, the end of the book, I talk about
Speaker 2: these girls and I cannot read the end back without
Speaker 2: crying because these girls would write into hef as young
Speaker 2: as eleven years old and they would say, you know,
Speaker 2: I got a playble white bedspread, and you know, what
Speaker 2: does it take to be part of the mansion? Like
Speaker 2: what does it take to be up there? Like one
Speaker 2: day I'll be there, and like what does it take?
Speaker 2: It's like you have to you have to lose yourself completely.
Speaker 2: That's what it takes. And I don't recommend that to anybody.
Speaker 1: But you found yourself now, yeah work in progress. Yeah wow.
Speaker 1: And then and what about his family? So you said
Speaker 1: he had a crazy family with his family growing up,
Speaker 1: and then he has kids, which is like I don't
Speaker 1: believe that. I can't believe he has kids, Like I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think he could either. Me. I don't think
Speaker 2: he could either. He's he you know, he always said
Speaker 2: to me, I'm not a good father. He said that
Speaker 2: he didn't want the second set of kids, but it
Speaker 2: was like having his own grandchildren, and you know, they
Speaker 2: were coming in the room when he would act like
Speaker 2: he was busy, and he just didn't know how to
Speaker 2: be a dad, like I hate Yeah, I didn't know
Speaker 2: how to connect. Didn't know how to be a dad.
Speaker 2: It's hard. And I think he's just so used to
Speaker 2: being gross with women his whole life. I remember Christy,
Speaker 2: his daughter, who was CEO for so long, came into
Speaker 2: the room when we're playing cards and kissed him like
Speaker 2: you know, between cheek and mouth like here and and
Speaker 2: then he's like yummy, and I'm just like I'm just
Speaker 2: thinking ew. Like he he can't like switch his brain
Speaker 2: to daughter.
Speaker 1: Everything has to be transactional sounds like like yummy.
Speaker 2: You don't say that to your daughter. That's gross?
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, he didn't. Yeah, the difference between that's creepy him.
Speaker 2: Its constantly imperv mode.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Exactly what do they think of all of this?
Speaker 1: Have they?
Speaker 2: Have?
Speaker 1: They expressed publicly disapproval of this book or Holly's book
Speaker 1: or in general, or they're not even like.
Speaker 2: No, I haven't. I spoke to Marston yesterday, and you
Speaker 2: know his two youngest kids are closer in age to me,
Speaker 2: so you know I really like Marsden care about him,
Speaker 2: and yeah, I mean I don't have a bad relationship
Speaker 2: with them. I know that Kimberly have ex wife made
Speaker 2: some statements about defending him, and the first thing I
Speaker 2: thought of was I met her once in person, but
Speaker 2: my other interactions with her were all of her naked.
Speaker 2: He had huge naked pictures of Kimberly, like in the
Speaker 2: gym and in the library, and I'm thinking, like, if
Speaker 2: that's not objectification, what is right? And how could you
Speaker 2: defend a man that had your naked pictures all over
Speaker 2: the house for anybody coming to a party to look at?
Speaker 2: Your own children are coming in the house and staring
Speaker 2: at their mom naked on the wall, Like, come on,
Speaker 2: how how much longer can you defend this man? I
Speaker 2: have no idea.
Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, I mean I'm gonna cry. I feel for
Speaker 1: you as a twenty one year old girl, I really
Speaker 1: really do. So you're still so young and it's great
Speaker 1: that you have so much of life ahead of you.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess that was you and locking the
Speaker 1: door now before you get robbed because it won't happen again.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope that is the book doing incredibly well.
Speaker 2: I just got word that it's a New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 1: Yay, oh immediately amazing first week. Yeah all right, well, congratulations.
Speaker 1: That means that you're you know, and you should reach
Speaker 1: out to Holly and Bridget or maybe all of us
Speaker 1: will have a conversation on here one time. I think
Speaker 1: this is a topic, I really do.
Speaker 2: I would love to come on here with them, with you, and.
Speaker 1: I'll ask them because I think it reminds me of
Speaker 1: situations I've been in where like people don't like each
Speaker 1: other and they don't even really necessarily have a good reason,
Speaker 1: and this guy has done so much damage. So you
Speaker 1: all have such a word to spread as women who
Speaker 1: all got sucked into something. Okay, yes, walking into it knowingly,
Speaker 1: but later you know, you could help young girls not
Speaker 1: get traumatized, and you'd you know, so anyway, I appreciate
Speaker 1: the conversation and really the being so open and honest,
Speaker 1: and congratulations on the book and on everything else.
Speaker 2: Thank you, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Amazing, awesome, have a great day, Thank you. Thanks bye.
Speaker 1: Wow that was something else. She was lovely. I was
Speaker 1: reading my I have multiple pages in front of me
Speaker 1: of the story. I was thinking this was like prostitution
Speaker 1: and going in there, it had to be strategic. And
Speaker 1: you know, I learn a lot because I mean, a
Speaker 1: twenty one year old girl, you know what, to me
Speaker 1: is kind of still a child, like it really really is.
Speaker 1: We could say whatever we want and you could be
Speaker 1: legal to vote, but like twenty one is really young.
Speaker 1: Like I mean, if I have assistants that are working
Speaker 1: here that are twenty four, pau wall be like they're babies,
Speaker 1: Like you know, not to be rude, but like you know,
Speaker 1: and a lot of them are way more babies than
Speaker 1: I was at that age because I grew up in
Speaker 1: a very abusive, fucked up alcohol ridden oblimia, gambling, physical abuse,
Speaker 1: being dragged, calling the cops like that doesn't count, Like, yes,
Speaker 1: I was mature because I was an adult when I
Speaker 1: was a kid. That you don't want that for anybody else.
Speaker 1: And so like these kids that get preyed upon by
Speaker 1: the Jeffrey Epstein's, by the Harvey Weinstein's, by the Hugh Hefner's,
Speaker 1: by all the scumbags that were at that party, many
Speaker 1: of them. I know, so I you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's an interesting conversation. I was fascinated that she was like,
Speaker 1: you know, squirreling her chestnuts, like she was hoarding her
Speaker 1: chestnuts as a squirrel while with him. That was when
Speaker 1: I was like, each time I have a conversation, like
Speaker 1: something comes out that these girls are so desensitized they
Speaker 1: don't even think it's like newsworthy, and I'm like, what
Speaker 1: the fuck? Like Holly too, so they didn't get paid
Speaker 1: to be on this show, Like crazy interesting, really really
Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. Wow, I'm like speechless. And then that
Speaker 1: these women turn against each other under the realm of
Speaker 1: a man leading a cult. It's crazy.