Speaker 1: I have long believed that artists are our great visionaries.
Speaker 1: They help us to see and understand what still might
Speaker 1: remain as a question for us in our lives and
Speaker 1: in our worlds. So what I know now is that
Speaker 1: artists have been living through this moment as we all have.
Speaker 1: We are going to experience artworks that allow people in
Speaker 1: the future to understand what this moment was like. We
Speaker 1: will have the chance to experience artworks that will bring
Speaker 1: some perspective on all of the complexity that we are
Speaker 1: living through. That was Thelma Golden, director and Chief Parada
Speaker 1: at the Studio Museum in Harlem and one of the
Speaker 1: most influential people in the world of art. One expert
Speaker 1: described her this way. You can't say African American art
Speaker 1: without saying Thelma Golden. You can't say contemporary art without
Speaker 1: saying Thelma Golden. You can't say Harlem without saying Thelma Golden.
Speaker 1: I am Sharon Bowen and this is Seneca's one Women
Speaker 1: to Hear. We are bringing you one hundred of the
Speaker 1: rules most inspiring and history making women you need to hear.
Speaker 1: Thelma Golden is a trailblazer. Under her leadership the Studio
Speaker 1: Museum in Harlem has brought many black artists to prominence,
Speaker 1: and her impact goes far beyond New York. The Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Time says she has changed the face of art all
Speaker 1: over the US. Listen and learn why Thelma Golden is
Speaker 1: one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. The Studio
Speaker 1: Museum in Harlem is one of the world's leading institutions
Speaker 1: devoted to visual art by black artists. How do you
Speaker 1: see its mission? Thank you for that question, you know, um,
Speaker 1: The Studio Museum's mission is to serve as the nexus
Speaker 1: for artists of African descent locally, nationally, and internationally. That's
Speaker 1: our mission. That means, first of all, that we connect
Speaker 1: with artists with one another. The artists whose work we
Speaker 1: collect an exhibit, and especially those in the Artists and
Speaker 1: Residence program, have grown into a multi generational network of
Speaker 1: artists working in Harlem, in New York City, in this country,
Speaker 1: and all over the world. We also connect within this
Speaker 1: network of artists to the larger community of arts and artists,
Speaker 1: and it's why we think of ourselves so much as
Speaker 1: a center. You know. I like to say the Studio
Speaker 1: Museum in Harlem is where black art lives. And it's
Speaker 1: because of that grounding that's sense of us as a
Speaker 1: place in Harlem devoted to art and artists, having done
Speaker 1: so for over a half century. I like that image
Speaker 1: is where black art lives. So it's a breathing movement,
Speaker 1: not static. I actually have a visual from those words.
Speaker 1: Hell's a little bit about you. What was it like
Speaker 1: growing up? Were you always interested in the art? Yes,
Speaker 1: you know. I was very, very fortunate, Sharon, to grow
Speaker 1: up here in New York City, and I was the
Speaker 1: child of two native New Yorkers. My father was born
Speaker 1: in Harlem in nineteen six during the Harlem Renaissance. My
Speaker 1: mother was born in nineteen thirty in the Bedford's Dyvesant
Speaker 1: section of Brooklyn, and they married in the early sixties
Speaker 1: and moved to Southeast Queens to St. Albans. And so
Speaker 1: I grew up with a wide and deep sense of
Speaker 1: this city and grew up with parents who believed in
Speaker 1: the cultural life of the city and supported it. So
Speaker 1: I grew up going to theater and dance and seeing
Speaker 1: live music, and of course also to museums. But the
Speaker 1: museums were my interest, and that came from the fact
Speaker 1: that in school we went on field trips to all
Speaker 1: the museums in the city. And I love museums. I
Speaker 1: love these spaces that were devoted to presenting works of art.
Speaker 1: I found them inspiring, I found them deeply, deeply engaging.
Speaker 1: And after going on field trips, I often begged my
Speaker 1: parents to go to museums as a family, and they obliged.
Speaker 1: So what age are you've been that? But you held Oh,
Speaker 1: I was ten, eleven, twelve years old. I mean by
Speaker 1: the time I was in high school, by the time
Speaker 1: I was fourteen and finally allowed to take the subway
Speaker 1: by myself, I was going to museums on my own.
Speaker 1: So as a family, it began when I was relatively young,
Speaker 1: and you know, and I have to stay. You know,
Speaker 1: I think back on it now and I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: to my parents, who neither whom are still with us,
Speaker 1: that they really, um, you know, it was a great
Speaker 1: lesson of they saw me. They saw this as an interest,
Speaker 1: and they actually saw how much of a passion it was,
Speaker 1: and they supported it. Did you ever went to dabble
Speaker 1: into art yourself? You know? I never made art, though,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere in my storage space there are evidences
Speaker 1: of my attempts at art that my mother, of course,
Speaker 1: like all mothers, thought were masterpieces. But I knew from
Speaker 1: a very young age that while I loved art, I
Speaker 1: didn't have the talent for it. And when I look
Speaker 1: back on that now, that's probably what made me a curator.
Speaker 1: Right early on, I had a sense of what made
Speaker 1: an artwork important, what made an artwork significant, what made
Speaker 1: an artwork something that you wanted to look at over
Speaker 1: and over again. And I certainly didn't think my third
Speaker 1: and fourth grade attempts were that, though my mother kept them,
Speaker 1: framed them and treated them as if they should be
Speaker 1: works that would go into a museum. I'm sure they
Speaker 1: were masterpieces for her, for sure. You mentioned your time
Speaker 1: as a curator. When was that puble of moment for
Speaker 1: you that made you that thel mcgolden you are today.
Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to be a curator in high
Speaker 1: school and I went to an amazing independent school on
Speaker 1: the Upper East Side called the New Lincoln School, which
Speaker 1: is sadly no longer in existence, And when I was
Speaker 1: a student there in the early nineteen eighties, it was
Speaker 1: led by a phenomenal educator named Verne Oliver and Mrs Oliver,
Speaker 1: who was the head of school, was one of those
Speaker 1: educators who had the special gift of being able to
Speaker 1: see so distinctly the individuality of every student. And when
Speaker 1: I expressed in those early high school years my interest
Speaker 1: in art, she immediately suggested that I begin taking classes
Speaker 1: in the museums in New York City. So I was
Speaker 1: a participant in many of the high school programs across
Speaker 1: New York and very significantly, I was in the high
Speaker 1: school program at the Metropolitan Museum in my junior and
Speaker 1: senior year in high school. And so when it came
Speaker 1: time for college applications and writing a college essay and answering,
Speaker 1: you know that an inevitable question of what do you
Speaker 1: want to do? I wrote with a deep amount of
Speaker 1: conviction that I wanted to be a contemporary art curator.
Speaker 1: So I knew going to college that I hoped that
Speaker 1: this could be my path. I think we all have
Speaker 1: those magical teachers in our lives, and thank goodness that
Speaker 1: she found that talent and you at at a really
Speaker 1: early age, which is great. You have a history of
Speaker 1: promoting and supporting emerging black artists. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about the importance of doing so I think
Speaker 1: it's really important to create space in every sense of
Speaker 1: the word for black artists. This concept is foundational not
Speaker 1: just to our Studio Museum mission, but also to my
Speaker 1: own personal mission. Space and time are deeply important to
Speaker 1: young artists and it can be scarce commodities for them,
Speaker 1: and so at the Studio Museum, our founders created the
Speaker 1: artist and residence program, which is where the studio and
Speaker 1: our name comes from. That for me has been an
Speaker 1: inspiration to understand what it can mean to support artists
Speaker 1: early in their career, to provide them with the opportunity
Speaker 1: as well as the safe space to grow and create.
Speaker 1: That's what our residency program does, but it's also as
Speaker 1: a curator the way I have felt that I can
Speaker 1: offer artists a sense of their possibility through my early support.
Speaker 1: So would you consider you were one of the pioneers
Speaker 1: of the term post black art? Can you tell us
Speaker 1: what that billy means? I first began using the term
Speaker 1: uh post black with my artists friend Glenn Ligon. Glenn
Speaker 1: is one of the most important significant artists working today,
Speaker 1: and I feel privileged to have him as an interlocutor.
Speaker 1: For over a quarter of a century. We've known each
Speaker 1: other for over twenty five years, and some of my
Speaker 1: most significant conversations, which have led to my most significant
Speaker 1: revelations about art, have common conversation with Glenn. And Glenn
Speaker 1: and I are both students of not just art but
Speaker 1: art history, and the legacy of the Black Arts Movement
Speaker 1: is so profound and in the moment in the early
Speaker 1: two thousands when I came to the Studio Museum and
Speaker 1: was beginning to think about how to chart a path
Speaker 1: at the Studio Museum for new art histories that would
Speaker 1: both reflect the past, honor it look back to the
Speaker 1: Harlem Renaissance and even before that our nineteenth century African
Speaker 1: American artist pioneers, but also to situate itself among the
Speaker 1: recent past, which includes the Black Arts Movement, which is
Speaker 1: the moment the Studio Museum was founded. And in thinking
Speaker 1: about that, it was important to kind of create a
Speaker 1: sense of how to think about time as it relates
Speaker 1: to artists and their work aesthetically, intellectually, even um perhaps spiritually,
Speaker 1: and so in a kind of shorthand to talk about
Speaker 1: these generations that came out of inspiration from the Black
Speaker 1: Arts Movement, but we're also we're thinking about the depth
Speaker 1: to which they could understand identity, race, and culture in
Speaker 1: their own work, and we began referring to this group
Speaker 1: of young black artists as post black. It was not
Speaker 1: meant to connote a style or a way of working
Speaker 1: or a kind of art, but more in attitude and
Speaker 1: intellectual space from which we we saw their work blossoming.
Speaker 1: This led to my curating an exhibition early in my
Speaker 1: studio museum career with the amazing curator Christine Kim, called Freestyle.
Speaker 1: And it was during that exhibition where these ideas about
Speaker 1: what it meant at that dawn of a new century
Speaker 1: to think about both the legacy and the future of
Speaker 1: black art could be and what it might mean that
Speaker 1: the term became aim away to open up a space
Speaker 1: of dialogue and conversation. That's really fascinating. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much as Thelma for giving us that that background. Senecas
Speaker 1: one hundred women to hear. We'll be back after this
Speaker 1: short break. I'm want to shovet gears a little bit
Speaker 1: and talk about COVID. Can you tell us how COVID
Speaker 1: has affected the museum and also how has it affected
Speaker 1: you personally. Like so many cultural institutions, we have been
Speaker 1: deeply challenged by the pandemic. Um As an organization in Harlem,
Speaker 1: you know, we feel the impacts, the disproportionate impact of
Speaker 1: not only the health pandemic, but the sort of racial
Speaker 1: revolution that ripped our country in wrecking mission of the
Speaker 1: long struggle of black people. Art museums and performing arts
Speaker 1: institutions have been doing everything they can to fulfill their
Speaker 1: mission in this moment and serve the public, even though
Speaker 1: for many of us their budgets are under terrible stress
Speaker 1: and for many organizations people can no longer visit. In
Speaker 1: the case of the Studio Museum, we have been closed
Speaker 1: since because we are have embarked on the most transformative
Speaker 1: project for the museum perhaps since our founding, in that
Speaker 1: we're building a new building designed for us by Sir
Speaker 1: David Adjay. And so when we closed, we began a
Speaker 1: project that created for us the opportunity to work in
Speaker 1: and around Harlem with the Harlem Parks, with the partnership
Speaker 1: of the Parks Department, with our Harlem peer institutions, and
Speaker 1: with schools and community centers and senior centers where we
Speaker 1: were creating projects all under the rubric of a project
Speaker 1: called in Harlem Coming from our name, the Studio Museum
Speaker 1: in Harlem. Sadly, the pandemic has meant that those programs
Speaker 1: are not able to happen at this point, but we've
Speaker 1: continued to serve our audiences digitally. We've been doing robust
Speaker 1: digital programming for public audiences but also with our schools
Speaker 1: and our community partners. And we also, during this period
Speaker 1: while we're building the new building, have a dynamic partnership
Speaker 1: with the Museum of Modern Art and MoMA ps one.
Speaker 1: So the Studio Museum currently has exhibitions on view at
Speaker 1: both of those institutions, and we are very grateful for
Speaker 1: the chance to be able to continue presenting artists. But
Speaker 1: all of that has happened in the midst of a complex,
Speaker 1: complex moment for the cultural world in Harlem. Many of
Speaker 1: my performing arts peers organizations beloved by all, like the
Speaker 1: Apollo Theater, Dance Theater of Harlem, the National Black Theater,
Speaker 1: Jazz Museum, Harlem Stage, they haven't been able to open
Speaker 1: since March and this has been, you know, of great concern.
Speaker 1: But we're all committed to being a part of the
Speaker 1: recovery of this moment, not just for Harlem. Where As
Speaker 1: I said, um Harlem has been disproportionately impacted in this moment,
Speaker 1: but for the city as a whole. Personally, I think
Speaker 1: I've navigated this moment like so many of us have,
Speaker 1: which is to be grateful for my health, grateful for
Speaker 1: my safety, but with a deep, deep sense of concern
Speaker 1: for the many communities I'm a part of, the cultural community,
Speaker 1: my Harlem community, and just the ways in which I
Speaker 1: see myself and my neighbors here in New York City,
Speaker 1: all of us, you know, imagining a moment on the
Speaker 1: other side where all that's been laid bare in this
Speaker 1: moment um will give us the chance to continue to
Speaker 1: work towards an equitable, safe and open city for all,
Speaker 1: to really work to continue to offer more possibilities to
Speaker 1: more people. And so I see cultural institutions as important
Speaker 1: civic institutions. I mean, sure, our our work is to
Speaker 1: present the art, but that work is also about upholding
Speaker 1: um ideas of humanity, providing places that allow people to
Speaker 1: exist with a sense of inspiration and awe and wonder,
Speaker 1: and to have that exist in our daily lives make
Speaker 1: us all better people, give us all so much more
Speaker 1: in this world. So I look forward to going back
Speaker 1: to being able to serve in that way. We all
Speaker 1: look forward to that moment to be on the other
Speaker 1: side of this pandemic, that's for sure. And you touched
Speaker 1: on a little bit about art and its impact on
Speaker 1: culture and the year us tough in so many different ways.
Speaker 1: How do you view are, let's say, in the next
Speaker 1: year too impacting culture. I have long believed that artists
Speaker 1: are our great visionaries. They help us to see and
Speaker 1: understand what still might remain as a question for us
Speaker 1: in our lives and in our worlds. So what I
Speaker 1: know now is that artists have been living through this
Speaker 1: moment as we all have. And what I imagine we
Speaker 1: will see through their art, not just the visual art
Speaker 1: world that I'm a part of, but through literature and
Speaker 1: music and film and dance and poetry and song. We
Speaker 1: are going to experience artworks that come from this moment.
Speaker 1: We are going to experience artworks that allow people in
Speaker 1: the future to understand what this moment was like. We
Speaker 1: will have the chance to experience artworks that will bring
Speaker 1: some perspective on all of the complexity that you are
Speaker 1: living through right now. I got to see a little
Speaker 1: bit of that just walking the streets of New York
Speaker 1: with you know, some of the murals and paintings and
Speaker 1: if stores frinds that have been boarded up. Was really
Speaker 1: inspirational to see the artists capture of the moment. So
Speaker 1: then I want to talk a little bit about creator
Speaker 1: Laura Stokes Sims. I know she was your idol as
Speaker 1: a tool in later you got to work under her
Speaker 1: and then succeed her as director of the museum. What
Speaker 1: was it like getting to work with your role model?
Speaker 1: Getting to work for and with Lowry Stokes Sims was
Speaker 1: such a privilege. I knew of Lowry from the time
Speaker 1: I was a high school student, when I would see
Speaker 1: her picture in the New York Times or in Art magazine.
Speaker 1: Lowry was the first African American curator at the Metropolitan Museum,
Speaker 1: a position she began in nineteen sent four. And by
Speaker 1: seeing Lowry and understanding the huge impact she had on
Speaker 1: the art world in the museum world, made it possible
Speaker 1: for me to imagine myself as a curator. So it
Speaker 1: was incredible to get to meet her in the early
Speaker 1: nineties when I began my career in museums as a
Speaker 1: curator at the Whitney and she was an invaluable mentor
Speaker 1: to me. I could go to Lowry always with my questions,
Speaker 1: with my concerns, with my aspirations, with my fears, and
Speaker 1: she created such an amazing safe space of support and
Speaker 1: friendship for me. So fast forward to nineteen nine, I
Speaker 1: think it would have been yes when I received a
Speaker 1: call from Lowry letting me know that she was accepting
Speaker 1: the position of director of the Studio Museum in Harlem,
Speaker 1: an institution where I've been an intern in five then
Speaker 1: came back and spent a year at the museum as
Speaker 1: a fellow in right after I graduated from Smith College.
Speaker 1: This was exciting to me. Lowry had this esteemed career
Speaker 1: at the match. She've been there for twenty seven years.
Speaker 1: Always however, though close to the Studio Museum had curated
Speaker 1: many exhibitions and programs, so I just thought this was
Speaker 1: the most exciting possibility. And then when she asked if
Speaker 1: I would consider the position of deputy director and chief Curator,
Speaker 1: working closely with her on reimagining of the museum, it
Speaker 1: really was a dream opportunity for me. Getting to work
Speaker 1: with Lowry only deepened my deep love and respect for her.
Speaker 1: Watching her work, watching her deep sense of work, ethic commitment, rigor,
Speaker 1: her incredible art historical knowledge, but her also equally deep
Speaker 1: institutional knowledge. All taught me so much and I carry
Speaker 1: them with me in my role now as director of
Speaker 1: the museum in many respects. I'm sure she's extremely proud
Speaker 1: of the way you've reached back into the community as well.
Speaker 1: It's very important to me. It's been a gift that
Speaker 1: the last three directors of the Studio Museum in Harlem
Speaker 1: have been women. Dr Lowry Stokes Simms, who hired me,
Speaker 1: who's director of the museum from two thousand to two
Speaker 1: thousand six, Kinshasha Holman Conwell, who was director of the
Speaker 1: museum from the nineties all the way through the moment
Speaker 1: that she left the museum to go to Washington and
Speaker 1: become deputy director at the National Museum of African American
Speaker 1: History and Culture. And before Nasha Holman Conwell, Dr Mary schmccampbell,
Speaker 1: who became director of the Studio Museum in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: seven and remained director through the mid eighties before she
Speaker 1: then became New York City's Commissioner of Cultural Affairs. All
Speaker 1: three of the past directors Dr. Campbell, Mrs Conwell and
Speaker 1: Dr Sims. I know and really feel deeply, deeply grateful
Speaker 1: that all of them provided a path for me in
Speaker 1: my leadership. So in this moment in time, film of
Speaker 1: what gives you hope right now at this moment, and
Speaker 1: I think for me, in all moments, art and artists
Speaker 1: give me hope, you know. I I feel that my
Speaker 1: life has been changed, transformed by my own experiences with
Speaker 1: artworks and with the artists who make them. I find
Speaker 1: art a place that I can go when I have questions,
Speaker 1: but I also find it a place to go to
Speaker 1: contemplate what perhaps might be the ways to see the
Speaker 1: world in new ways. I think artists are so lucky
Speaker 1: to be able to live within the spirit of their
Speaker 1: own imagination, for them to imagine for us futures and
Speaker 1: possibilities that we have yet to experience. And so what
Speaker 1: gives me hope now is the place in which I
Speaker 1: can feel a sense of awe and inspiration through my
Speaker 1: own experiences with art, but also how I understand collectively
Speaker 1: what important voices artists have in helping us chart a
Speaker 1: path that is one that includes justice and democracy. Believes
Speaker 1: deeply in grace and faith, can see and imagine broad
Speaker 1: depths of possibility and do so in ways that continue
Speaker 1: for me to inspire. Well, I want to thank you
Speaker 1: for your awe and inspiration for all of us. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for spending time with us today. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you. It's a pleasure to be in conversation with you,
Speaker 1: and a pleasure to be able to think, you know,
Speaker 1: in real time about you know what allows us all
Speaker 1: to have moments of awe and inspiration. Talking to Thoma
Speaker 1: Golden always gives me a fresh perspective on life. Here
Speaker 1: are three things I took away from that great conversation. First,
Speaker 1: Thema tells us why it's important to create spaces where
Speaker 1: emerging talents can flourish. Giving young people's space, support and opportunity,
Speaker 1: it's a way to help them realize their own sense
Speaker 1: of possibility. Second, let's recognize and celebrate the fact that
Speaker 1: art can truly be transformative. As Thoma says, art is
Speaker 1: a place we can go to when we have questions
Speaker 1: or when we want to see the world in a
Speaker 1: new way. And finally, when we look back at the
Speaker 1: challenging times we are now living in, expect society's artists,
Speaker 1: whether they are painters or dancers or boots to help
Speaker 1: us make sense of it all. Tune in next Tuesday
Speaker 1: to hear about our next featured women and discover why
Speaker 1: she's one of Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to join the Seneca Women Network, go to
Speaker 1: Seneca Women dot com. There you'll get access to exclusive
Speaker 1: events and workshops, plus updates on new podcasts and other
Speaker 1: opportunities to get involved. Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear
Speaker 1: is a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG. Have
Speaker 1: a Great Day,