WEBVTT - From the Vault: The One Ring 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.720 Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.800 name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:14.400 Saturday Vault time, folks. Uh. This episode originally published on 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.520 September nineteen nineteen, and it is about the One Ring. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:20.640 Is this the one where we talk about the metallurgy 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.040 of the One Ring? Yeah, we we break down, well, okay, 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.000 given the properties that are described in in the books, 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:30.640 what could the One Ring have potentially been about? So yeah, 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.920 it's a it's a way of making a metallurgical episode 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.680 a whole lot of fun and and at times I 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.879 think humorous. And the other cool thing is, since you 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.279 know we're re running this episode on the nineteen uh, 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.600 they of coming twenty two is going to be Hobbit Day, 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:52.000 which is a holiday that has been invented by Tolkien fans. 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.600 So that's exciting. This will help you get ready for 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:57.440 Hobbit Day. And hey, maybe maybe we'll have a Hobbit 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.240 Day episode. I don't know yet. We're recording this allD 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.840 intro like a month or two ahead of time, but 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.240 I think we might be able to do it. We'll see, 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:15.160 you'll find out on They all will be revealed three 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:18.880 rings for Elvin King's Under the Sky, seven for the 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:22.720 dwarf lords in their halls of Stone, nine for mortal 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.279 men doomed to die, and one for the Dark Lord 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.560 on his dark throne in the Land of Mordor, where 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:33.480 the shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, one 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:37.200 ring to find them, one ring to bring them all, 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.679 and in the darkness, find them in the Land of Mordor, 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:49.920 where the Shadows lie. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:59.000 A production of I Heart Radios has to work. Hey, 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:00.960 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.080 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and nerd Alert. We're 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.120 doing a Tolkien episode today. That's right, of course. The 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.640 cold open there was from J. R. Tolkien's The Lord 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.400 of the Rings, which was written in stages between ninety 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.200 seven and nineteen forty nine. I imagine everyone listening to 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:21.800 this is familiar with the Lord of the Rings. Uh, yeah, 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:23.760 pretty much. I mean, we'll try to make it fun 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.520 even if you're not. But yeah, Robert, you got bit 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.760 by the Lord of the Rings bug this week apparently, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.239 and you wanted to talk about the One Ring of Power. 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:32.920 See if there's any way we could give it the 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.080 stuff to blow your mind treatment. Yeah, yeah, I've been 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.720 thinking a lot about Tolkien recently, I mean until obviously. 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.280 You know, I read Tolkien when I was younger. I 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.079 watched the movies when they came out, I watched the 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.000 animated films when when they were around, and uh, and 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:48.040 then I kind of took a break, and then I 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.919 came back and read The Hobbit to my son. Eventually, 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.720 I hope to read The Lord of the Rings to him. 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:56.880 Uh wait, when did the classic quote? You were reading 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:58.920 it to him at some point, weren't you when he said, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:00.919 is it the Lord of the Ring yet? Yeah? Yeah, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:03.040 he kind of got a little bored with the opening, 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.400 but at this point, like he's, yeah, he's super into 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.280 Harry Potter. I think he's pretty much ready for the 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.519 Lord of the Rings. But you know, the Hobbit is 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.239 better for for younger readers as well. But it got 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.120 me thinking a lot about the Ring. Uh, and it's 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.720 it's nature, it's powers, and and also the task of 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:24.760 applying real world science to the One Ring and seeing 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.480 what we could potentially figure out. It'll have to be 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.840 a little bit of loosey goosey real world science. But 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.760 we'll do our best because obviously the one ring, the 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.480 Ring of Power, is an object of intense magical power 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.000 in the books, created by an intensely magical being in 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:46.520 an intensely magical fantasy world. And so our intent here 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.360 is not to you know, to cheapen all of that 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.720 or anything, or to or to myth busted or anything 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.480 like that, but you know, just to engage in the 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.720 fun exercise of saying, okay, okay, if if we had 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.000 to make this work with science, what would the ring 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:02.880 be made out of? What are the the you know, 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.360 what are the constraints involved that sort of thing. Now, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.440 the Ring of Power in Lord of the Rings has 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.560 got to be one of the like ultimate examples of 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.480 a fantasy mcguffin. You know, an object that that a 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.080 plot can be built around that. There are a lot 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:18.520 of these in the story you end up with, like 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.720 you know, Wore Cruxes and Harry Potter and uh, there's 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.919 very often it's just convenient from a storytelling perspective to 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.360 have a magical object that must be uh, that must 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.280 be managed, and the logistics of which become the struggle 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.560 for the characters in the story. But the ring I 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.560 think also represents more than that. It's an interesting object 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.400 in itself because of its properties that to some people 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.960 who own it or where it, it confers these powers. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.480 And we can discuss what the powers are alluded to 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.000 be in the story, uh in a minute. But also 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:52.800 it has this corrupting influence. So it actually I think 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.760 does have a kind of thematic commentary on the way 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.960 that like possessing great power has the tendency to corrupt 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.880 to people's motives and way of seeing the world. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.160 I mean even even today, like certainly throughout human history, 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.560 we can look to the like the symbolic power of 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:13.880 the ring. Um like rings are used to to signify, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:19.600 you know, bonds that have been made, social bonds, marriages, uh. 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:25.680 They they have long symbolized power or or wealth. The 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.080 seal ring that might be used as a stamp in 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.000 wax to show you the sigil of your authority. Right 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.160 of course, there's the super Bowl ring, right, which I mean, 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.600 really it is as silly as the super Bowl ring 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.680 may be, it is it is you know, it is 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.640 drawing from this lineage of the ring as the symbol 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.880 of power and accomplishment, and so yeah, I mean all 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.000 that's wrapped up in the myth of the Ring as well, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:48.840 you know, not even to get into some of the 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:53.000 various things that Tolkien was drawing on, you know, the 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.360 Ring cycle, etcetera. Another token note I want to make 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.440 is I do want to drive home. Even though Joe 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.479 and I are both uh, you know, quite familiar with token, 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.839 neither of us are like Tolken experts. Please don't come 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.920 swinging your sword at us because we left out some 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:13.320 Tolkien detail, right, I mean, it's happened before uh Inland. Likewise, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:18.760 we may not hit all the token pronunciations. This I 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.640 can't wait, but but we're gonna give it a shot. 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:23.640 So first of all, let me just run through the 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.880 history of the One Ring for everyone so that we can, 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:29.840 you know, fully appreciate it. Here. So you're going beyond 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:31.400 the Lord of the Rings. You're going into the like 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.560 the deep lore. Yes, yeah, and uh. And I cobbled 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:39.880 this together from from from rereading some segments of Tolkien's 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:44.839 original work, but also from rereading segments from the Token Encyclopedia, 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.000 which is an excellent book that came out I believe 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.559 in like the the nineties, I still have a copy 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:56.560 of wonderful illustrations throughout uh and uh So, anyway, without 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.640 further ado, let me tell you about the One Ring. So, 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.600 the One Ring was forged in the year sixteen hundred 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.080 of the second Age of the Sun by Sauron, forged 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.760 within the active volcano Mount Doom in the land of 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:14.240 word War. So Saron was a former Maya spirit who 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.880 served the dark lord Melkorp, who was defeated at the 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.560 end of the First Age of the Sun. And so 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.000 then Saron, in the guise of an atter, the giver 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.280 of gifts, he seduces the Alvin Smith's into forging the 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.080 rings of power. Uh. These are the rings that from 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.239 our opening reading, three rings for the Elvin king, seven 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.360 for the dwarves, nine for men, and you know, so 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.320 that these may be distributed among you know, the various 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:45.840 intelligent species of of the of the of the world. 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:50.480 But then he goes and he forges the one Ring himself, 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.080 the ring that's going to control all of these rings, 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.200 and and also crackles with other powers will discuss. So 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.160 it's a trick, it's a trap. He's this godlike being 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.320 who wants to control the people's of Middle Earth. The elves, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:07.760 the dwarves, the humans, and so he gives them these 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:11.520 things that are ostensibly like weapons or or sort of 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.800 magical items of power that allow them to increase their 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.320 power and dominance over the world. And once all, once 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.800 all of those people put the rings on and assume 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.160 the power for themselves, then he unlocks the trap door 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.320 in the back of the code, which is that he's 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.040 got wondering that gives him power over all the other 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.160 people who are wearing them exactly. Yeah, and and he 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.520 take ends up sort of taking various guys. Is the 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.640 idea into different forms throughout his history, you know, is 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:42.000 from the end the deceiver, to the trickster, to the 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.080 to the warlord, to the seeker. So his fair form 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.679 is destroyed in the Fall of New Maniore and he 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.000 arises again as this dark lord in black armor. This 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.000 is the one that anyone who's even just set down 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.880 to watch The Lord of the Rings films probably remembers 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.240 from the prologue. So even if you only made it 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.360 ten minutes in, you saw this part. You saw the 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.240 dark Lord in his armor. But this too, this form 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.079 too was destroyed at the end of the Second Age 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.480 of the Sun and the Ring was lost, but Saron 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.160 did not perish because the One Ring still existed, and 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.520 his fate is bound to it. Um. Even if you're 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:19.480 more familiar with Harry Potter than Lord of the Rings, 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.000 you can think of the One Ring is like is 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:26.080 the horcrux, the single horr crux for Saaron. I suppose 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.880 so in his in his reincarnated form, without a body, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:35.320 he depends on this ring, or else he cannot survive, right, 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.199 And so in the year one thousand of the third 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.080 Age of the Sun, he rises again as the great 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:44.280 Littless Eye Uh, seeking the Ring, waging the War of 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:49.200 the Ring. But his adversaries have found it first, and 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.440 they've hatched a plan to destroy it by the only 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.520 known means, casting it back into the volcanic fires from 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.640 which it was forged. Okay, so there you've got the 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.560 setting of the Lord of the Rings. So you've got 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.400 to take this ring back into enemy territory to throw 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.520 it into a volcano, which is the only way it 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.360 can be destroyed, the only way to destroy this great 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.920 enemy God sorcerer thing. Um. Now, we there are scenes 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.360 in the movies, and I'm trying to recall there in 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.960 the book too. I mean we're like, for example, Gimli 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.680 the Dwarf played by John Ree Davies and the Peter 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.760 Jackson movies, uh that you know, they're getting the speech 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.960 about how the Ring must be destroyed in order to 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.920 defeat Sauron. So he just whips out his axe and 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.000 he's like, all right, let's bust it. And he just 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.680 swings his axe at the at the ring. But it 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:37.280 doesn't work right. He instead, I think his ax breaks 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:39.520 on it when he tries to cleave the ring with it. 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.040 So the ring is uh portrayed as something that is 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.160 completely indestructible except in the fires of the volcano where 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.880 it was forged. Yeah, there's a there's a great passage 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.560 in the Fellowship of the Ring where Gandolf explains all 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.720 this to Frodo after it's been cast into the fireplace 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:59.400 once and Frodo has has tried to will himself to 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:01.880 throw it once more into the deepest part of the fire, 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:06.640 but cannot, and so Gandalf says the following, But as 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.720 for breaking the ring, force is useless. Even if you 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.040 took it and struck it with a heavy sledge hammer, 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.000 it would make no dent in it. It cannot be 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.640 unmade by your hands or by mine. Your small fire, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.000 of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This ring 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.280 has already passed through it unscathed and even unheeded. But 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.480 there is no smith's forge in this shire that could 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.840 change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.520 of the dwarves could do that. It has been said 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.839 that dragon fire could melt and consume the rings of power, 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:40.319 but there is not now any dragon left on Earth 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.520 in which the old fire is hot enough, Nor was 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.320 there ever any dragon, not even on Callaghan the Black, 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.840 who could have harmed the one ring, the ruling Ring, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:54.640 for that was made by Saron himself. There is only 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.240 one way to find the cracks of Doom and the 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:01.120 depths of Oro Dron the fire Mount, to cast the 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.080 ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.959 to put it beyond the grasp of the enemy forever. 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.120 Thus spoke Gandalf, and Gandalf knew what he was talking about. 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.959 By the way, I've always thought Serena McKellen made a 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:15.960 great Gandalf, but I do have a strong attachment to 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.880 John Houston's Gandolf. In the nineteen seventy seven animated version 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.280 in the nineteen eighties Return of the King. Um, so 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.200 that you know that that was the token of of 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:28.800 my childhood, and so I was trying to summon a 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.160 little John Houston flavor there my limited ability to do so, 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.199 the ones that make saw Rouman in the Santa Claus 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.679 like his red robes. Um. You know, I haven't rewatched 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.120 the Return of the King in a while, but but 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:44.880 I have rewatched the Hobbit. I that it held up 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.040 pretty well. You know. Oh, I totally agree that Ian 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.400 mckelen is a great Gandalf. In fact, I would say 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.880 that even if you don't like the movies for any 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.880 other reason, the Peter Jackson films are great just for 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.440 Ian McKellen's performance. Oh yeah, and I mean Christopher Lee. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.760 It's it's got a wonderful oh Christopher Lee. Of course 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.360 that goes without saying. Uh So another note on the ring, 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.760 just real quick. Not that it's very important to what 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:10.600 we're going to be talking about for most of the episode, 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:13.000 but what happens when you wear the ring? Oh yeah, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.080 I was actually trying to figure this out, even though 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.760 I know the story. I was last night I was googling, like, 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.120 what does the Ring actually, do you know, other than 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.960 we know it confers this kind of vague power, but 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.319 it actually does have some specified powers in the mythology. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.000 I mean the big one of course, and this is 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:32.800 the one that comes up in the Hobbit as well, 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.720 is that when you put it on, you become invisible 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.559 to most creatures, though at the same time you become 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:43.760 highly visible to certain other beings, namely the Ring wraiths, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.520 Um and Uh and saw On himself. But it's like 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.480 allows you to sort of shift into another plane of 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.000 existence and doing so become invisible. But I think that's 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.920 only for some creatures who wear it, right, Um, I 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.880 mean the making them invisible? Right, Yeah, I mean it's 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.839 I don't think it's it's implied that Winn saw On 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.439 himself wears that he is invisible. But then again, it's 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.760 a different matter when you know, the dark Lord himself 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.440 wears the ring, as opposed to when a mortal wears 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.760 the ring. Oh, and I guess another thing to specifies 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.400 that the Wonder Ring, the powers of the Wondering maybe 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.880 greater or different than the powers of the other rings 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:26.920 that were given off to the to the kings of 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.000 the Mortals and the Elves. Yes, yeah, it is the 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:31.840 it is the Great Ring. It is the one that 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:36.080 the Master himself forged. Um. And you know, one note 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.840 again about the sort of the origins of saar On 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:42.480 is that in his like previous life, you know, it's 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.760 like an unfallen entity as one of these Maya spirits. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:52.080 He originally served the the ann or forge god a 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.000 Uli if I'm saying that right, who is you know, 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.280 a god of the fords, like a Festus. So you 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.800 know he would have had, you know, presumably had access 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.600 to all knowledge of metallurgy and uh and metal making 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.640 and crafting in general. Yeah, well, maybe we should take 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:09.840 a break and then we come back. We can explore 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.680 some questions about what the Ring of Power could possibly 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:21.200 be made of. All right, we're back. So you know 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.720 we're gonna again. We're gonna cherry pick a little bit here. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:25.520 This is not going to be, you know, a perfect 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.000 dissection of everything. I don't think Tolkien was going for 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:32.760 hard sci fi no, and what I wanted him to, 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.360 you know, I mean, oh my god, wait, no, that's 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.840 a brilliant idea. So we've had various rewrites of Lord 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.520 of the Rings. Uh, you know, there is the rewrite 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.200 of the story that tells it from more Door's perspective 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:47.600 that casts like Gandalf and the Elves as as the 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.360 villains and says, actually, more Door is just a you know, 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.560 it's just a region of people who are trying to 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.960 develop industrial technology and they're being oppressed by these you know, 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.200 ancient kingdoms of magic users and they're fighting back. So 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.000 that that's like that, which which is a wonderful treatment idea. 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:06.680 I haven't read it, but it's a wonderful idea because 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.000 you see that in plenty of like in plenty of 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.880 myths and stories of old where he's got one side 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:14.920 is is cast as the heroes, the other side as 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.920 the demonic other, and the reality is is, you know, 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.200 is something different than that. There's something more balanced probably, yeah. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.520 So so yeah, there's like that take. But here's the 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.360 take I want now, like the Arthur C. Clark version 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.240 of The Rings that tries to tell the same story 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:36.680 but just imagines everything is like totally mundane physics and 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.800 chemistry and and how all that has achieved. All right, well, 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:44.840 let's get into I guess some of the chemistry here. Um, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.720 so let's just start by talking about things you could 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.680 throw a ring into in an attempt to melt it. Okay, 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.720 So so to refresh again, you've got this ring of power. 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:57.640 You need to destroy it to defeat the bad guy. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.760 But you can't just throw it in a regular fire. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.720 The heroes can't do anything about it except to take 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:04.680 it back to the volcano where it was made. That's 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:06.800 the only thing that will destroy it. Right. In terms 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.760 of fire sources, Gandalf says, fireplace isn't going to cut it. 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:11.960 A dwarf and furnace isn't gonna cut it. Only the 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.840 volcano can can cut it. So let's talk about the 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.399 temperatures involved here. So, uh, first of all, let's take 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.399 the Hobbits fireplace. If you look for a you know, 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.200 you look at a maximum open wood fireplace temperature. UM. 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.200 I was looking around for sources on this. I found 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.240 a few different different ones that that more or less 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.280 match up. Hearth dot com, which indeed is a place 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.399 for people who are just into fireplaces to talk about fireplaces. Uh, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.160 they have like a message board, definitely, it's a full 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.920 message board, but its it lists an average fireplaces being 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:51.720 somewhere between uh one thousand, two hundred degrees to d 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.560 degrees fahrenheit. I've also seen it as high as sixteen 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.000 hundred um again for the hottest part of the fire, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:02.159 where Froto never actually throws it because the will of 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.679 the Ring prevents it. Uh. And as far as Celsius, 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:09.920 we'd be talking a range of roughly what's six degrees okay? Uh? 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.440 And And to clarify there, I guess this doesn't really 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:14.840 matter for the episode. But that's another thing about the 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:16.760 Ring is that the wing, the ring sort of has 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.600 a will of its own, and so it even when 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:22.119 a character wants to destroy it, the Ring sort of 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.440 messes with their mind and says, maybe you shouldn't destroy it. 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.040 So it's implied here that maybe Frodo was trying to 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:30.800 destroy it, but he hedged a bit threw it into 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.400 the cooler part of the fire. Is that what you're saying? Um, 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.119 I'm not sure about that, Like the first time it 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.080 goes into the fire. Yeah, perhaps, though I mean really probably, 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.480 because that's how the Ring works, and that's how it 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.959 works its will. Okay. So the Hobbits fireplace, we'll come 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.199 back to those. Uh. That actual temperature again, the Hobbits 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.960 fireplaces get hotter than than other fireplaces are not as hot. 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:55.679 And I was just say, they're just as hot as 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.640 any fireplace. It's standard, you know, I mean it's an 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.000 open fireplace. Now, let's u sit. None of the dwarves 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.560 they're really into working metal, right, Yes, so dwarves are 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.080 known for their metal work. So this makes us wonder 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:11.639 what is the maximum temperature of a furnace, But specifically 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.000 we should think about a medieval furnace, right, because essentially 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.280 the fantasy world of the Lord of the Rings is 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.119 as a medieval world. They're not in some like steel 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.760 foundry of today. Right. So a typical blast furnace today 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.639 that's going to reach temperatures of up to three thousand 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.560 degrees fahrenheit or uh one thousand, six hundred and fifty 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.119 degrees celsius. But during the Middle Ages, smelting tempts in 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.359 Europe were not quite that high. So I was looking 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.080 around for a source on this, and I ran across 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:46.119 a website called our lima dot net. And this is 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.479 by Bert Hall from the Institute of for the History 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.280 and Philosophy of Science and Technology at the University of Toronto, 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.879 and he says the following quote, the temperature inside the 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.920 furnace is a critical variable. Most early smelters in Europe 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.639 could reach average temperatures of about seven hundred degrees celsius 0:20:05.720 --> 0:20:10.600 and uh, that would be one thousand two d degrees fahrenheit. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.880 And he continues. Now, pure iron has a very high 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.119 melting point, about one thousand, five thirty degrees celsius, and 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.520 that would be two thousand, seven eighty six degrees fahrenheit. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.680 So when the newly formed mass of iron coalesces at 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.320 seven hundred degrees, it remains a red hot, slightly plastic 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.639 solid called a bloom. The smith can hammer on this 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.200 hot mass to shape it and to make it it's 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:39.520 extrude lumps of impurities that it might otherwise congeal around. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:41.840 So that would give us a basic temperature to work 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.760 with here, seven hundred degrees celsius or one thousand, two 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.920 hundred degrees fahrenheit. Okay, So one thing that points out, 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.160 which might be relevant to what we're talking about here, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.119 is you don't have to fully reach the melting point 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.280 of a metal in order to do something to it right. 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.400 You can. You can work with metal that's not fully liquefied. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.240 You can just get it up to a temperature where 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.560 its strength is reduced and you can deform it to 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:09.800 hammer the cuss out of it. Once it's soft, you 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.920 don't have to like reduce it into a liquid that 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.159 you pour into a mold or something. Um So. And 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:17.479 then but one of the things that Gandalf mentions two 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.159 is you can't just be this thing with a hammer 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.000 and expect to destroy it either. So my read on 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:25.719 this to sort of you know, uh, you know, underpin 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.439 what we're talking about here is if we think of 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:30.840 the ring, I think of it like a like a 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.560 mythical magical creature like a vampire or something where you 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.760 can't just shoot it. You have to be headed or 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.600 completely immolated like there must you must reach a threshold 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.119