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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's

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Speaker 1: Saturday Vault time, folks. Uh. This episode originally published on

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Speaker 1: September nineteen nineteen, and it is about the One Ring.

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Speaker 1: Is this the one where we talk about the metallurgy

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Speaker 1: of the One Ring? Yeah, we we break down, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: given the properties that are described in in the books,

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Speaker 1: what could the One Ring have potentially been about? So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a way of making a metallurgical episode

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of fun and and at times I

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Speaker 1: think humorous. And the other cool thing is, since you

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Speaker 1: know we're re running this episode on the nineteen uh,

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Speaker 1: they of coming twenty two is going to be Hobbit Day,

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Speaker 1: which is a holiday that has been invented by Tolkien fans.

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Speaker 1: So that's exciting. This will help you get ready for

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Speaker 1: Hobbit Day. And hey, maybe maybe we'll have a Hobbit

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Speaker 1: Day episode. I don't know yet. We're recording this allD

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Speaker 1: intro like a month or two ahead of time, but

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Speaker 1: I think we might be able to do it. We'll see,

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Speaker 1: you'll find out on They all will be revealed three

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Speaker 1: rings for Elvin King's Under the Sky, seven for the

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Speaker 1: dwarf lords in their halls of Stone, nine for mortal

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Speaker 1: men doomed to die, and one for the Dark Lord

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Speaker 1: on his dark throne in the Land of Mordor, where

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Speaker 1: the shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, one

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Speaker 1: ring to find them, one ring to bring them all,

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Speaker 1: and in the darkness, find them in the Land of Mordor,

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Speaker 1: where the Shadows lie. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 1: A production of I Heart Radios has to work. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and nerd Alert. We're

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Speaker 1: doing a Tolkien episode today. That's right, of course. The

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Speaker 1: cold open there was from J. R. Tolkien's The Lord

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Speaker 1: of the Rings, which was written in stages between ninety

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Speaker 1: seven and nineteen forty nine. I imagine everyone listening to

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Speaker 1: this is familiar with the Lord of the Rings. Uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: pretty much. I mean, we'll try to make it fun

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Speaker 1: even if you're not. But yeah, Robert, you got bit

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Speaker 1: by the Lord of the Rings bug this week apparently,

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Speaker 1: and you wanted to talk about the One Ring of Power.

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Speaker 1: See if there's any way we could give it the

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind treatment. Yeah, yeah, I've been

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Speaker 1: thinking a lot about Tolkien recently, I mean until obviously.

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Speaker 1: You know, I read Tolkien when I was younger. I

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Speaker 1: watched the movies when they came out, I watched the

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Speaker 1: animated films when when they were around, and uh, and

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Speaker 1: then I kind of took a break, and then I

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Speaker 1: came back and read The Hobbit to my son. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: I hope to read The Lord of the Rings to him.

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Speaker 1: Uh wait, when did the classic quote? You were reading

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Speaker 1: it to him at some point, weren't you when he said,

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Speaker 1: is it the Lord of the Ring yet? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he kind of got a little bored with the opening,

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Speaker 1: but at this point, like he's, yeah, he's super into

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Speaker 1: Harry Potter. I think he's pretty much ready for the

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Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings. But you know, the Hobbit is

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Speaker 1: better for for younger readers as well. But it got

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Speaker 1: me thinking a lot about the Ring. Uh, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's nature, it's powers, and and also the task of

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Speaker 1: applying real world science to the One Ring and seeing

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Speaker 1: what we could potentially figure out. It'll have to be

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Speaker 1: a little bit of loosey goosey real world science. But

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Speaker 1: we'll do our best because obviously the one ring, the

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Speaker 1: Ring of Power, is an object of intense magical power

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Speaker 1: in the books, created by an intensely magical being in

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Speaker 1: an intensely magical fantasy world. And so our intent here

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Speaker 1: is not to you know, to cheapen all of that

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Speaker 1: or anything, or to or to myth busted or anything

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Speaker 1: like that, but you know, just to engage in the

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Speaker 1: fun exercise of saying, okay, okay, if if we had

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Speaker 1: to make this work with science, what would the ring

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Speaker 1: be made out of? What are the the you know,

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Speaker 1: what are the constraints involved that sort of thing. Now,

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Speaker 1: the Ring of Power in Lord of the Rings has

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Speaker 1: got to be one of the like ultimate examples of

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Speaker 1: a fantasy mcguffin. You know, an object that that a

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Speaker 1: plot can be built around that. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of these in the story you end up with, like

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Speaker 1: you know, Wore Cruxes and Harry Potter and uh, there's

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Speaker 1: very often it's just convenient from a storytelling perspective to

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Speaker 1: have a magical object that must be uh, that must

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Speaker 1: be managed, and the logistics of which become the struggle

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Speaker 1: for the characters in the story. But the ring I

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Speaker 1: think also represents more than that. It's an interesting object

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Speaker 1: in itself because of its properties that to some people

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Speaker 1: who own it or where it, it confers these powers.

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Speaker 1: And we can discuss what the powers are alluded to

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Speaker 1: be in the story, uh in a minute. But also

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Speaker 1: it has this corrupting influence. So it actually I think

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Speaker 1: does have a kind of thematic commentary on the way

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Speaker 1: that like possessing great power has the tendency to corrupt

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Speaker 1: to people's motives and way of seeing the world. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean even even today, like certainly throughout human history,

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Speaker 1: we can look to the like the symbolic power of

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Speaker 1: the ring. Um like rings are used to to signify,

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Speaker 1: you know, bonds that have been made, social bonds, marriages, uh.

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Speaker 1: They they have long symbolized power or or wealth. The

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Speaker 1: seal ring that might be used as a stamp in

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Speaker 1: wax to show you the sigil of your authority. Right

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Speaker 1: of course, there's the super Bowl ring, right, which I mean,

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Speaker 1: really it is as silly as the super Bowl ring

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Speaker 1: may be, it is it is you know, it is

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Speaker 1: drawing from this lineage of the ring as the symbol

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Speaker 1: of power and accomplishment, and so yeah, I mean all

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Speaker 1: that's wrapped up in the myth of the Ring as well,

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Speaker 1: you know, not even to get into some of the

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Speaker 1: various things that Tolkien was drawing on, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Ring cycle, etcetera. Another token note I want to make

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Speaker 1: is I do want to drive home. Even though Joe

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Speaker 1: and I are both uh, you know, quite familiar with token,

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Speaker 1: neither of us are like Tolken experts. Please don't come

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Speaker 1: swinging your sword at us because we left out some

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Speaker 1: Tolkien detail, right, I mean, it's happened before uh Inland. Likewise,

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Speaker 1: we may not hit all the token pronunciations. This I

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Speaker 1: can't wait, but but we're gonna give it a shot.

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Speaker 1: So first of all, let me just run through the

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Speaker 1: history of the One Ring for everyone so that we can,

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Speaker 1: you know, fully appreciate it. Here. So you're going beyond

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Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings. You're going into the like

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Speaker 1: the deep lore. Yes, yeah, and uh. And I cobbled

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Speaker 1: this together from from from rereading some segments of Tolkien's

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Speaker 1: original work, but also from rereading segments from the Token Encyclopedia,

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Speaker 1: which is an excellent book that came out I believe

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Speaker 1: in like the the nineties, I still have a copy

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Speaker 1: of wonderful illustrations throughout uh and uh So, anyway, without

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Speaker 1: further ado, let me tell you about the One Ring. So,

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Speaker 1: the One Ring was forged in the year sixteen hundred

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Speaker 1: of the second Age of the Sun by Sauron, forged

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Speaker 1: within the active volcano Mount Doom in the land of

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Speaker 1: word War. So Saron was a former Maya spirit who

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Speaker 1: served the dark lord Melkorp, who was defeated at the

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Speaker 1: end of the First Age of the Sun. And so

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Speaker 1: then Saron, in the guise of an atter, the giver

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Speaker 1: of gifts, he seduces the Alvin Smith's into forging the

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Speaker 1: rings of power. Uh. These are the rings that from

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Speaker 1: our opening reading, three rings for the Elvin king, seven

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Speaker 1: for the dwarves, nine for men, and you know, so

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Speaker 1: that these may be distributed among you know, the various

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Speaker 1: intelligent species of of the of the of the world.

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Speaker 1: But then he goes and he forges the one Ring himself,

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Speaker 1: the ring that's going to control all of these rings,

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Speaker 1: and and also crackles with other powers will discuss. So

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Speaker 1: it's a trick, it's a trap. He's this godlike being

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Speaker 1: who wants to control the people's of Middle Earth. The elves,

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Speaker 1: the dwarves, the humans, and so he gives them these

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Speaker 1: things that are ostensibly like weapons or or sort of

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Speaker 1: magical items of power that allow them to increase their

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Speaker 1: power and dominance over the world. And once all, once

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Speaker 1: all of those people put the rings on and assume

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Speaker 1: the power for themselves, then he unlocks the trap door

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Speaker 1: in the back of the code, which is that he's

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Speaker 1: got wondering that gives him power over all the other

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Speaker 1: people who are wearing them exactly. Yeah, and and he

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Speaker 1: take ends up sort of taking various guys. Is the

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Speaker 1: idea into different forms throughout his history, you know, is

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Speaker 1: from the end the deceiver, to the trickster, to the

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Speaker 1: to the warlord, to the seeker. So his fair form

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Speaker 1: is destroyed in the Fall of New Maniore and he

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Speaker 1: arises again as this dark lord in black armor. This

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Speaker 1: is the one that anyone who's even just set down

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Speaker 1: to watch The Lord of the Rings films probably remembers

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Speaker 1: from the prologue. So even if you only made it

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Speaker 1: ten minutes in, you saw this part. You saw the

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Speaker 1: dark Lord in his armor. But this too, this form

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Speaker 1: too was destroyed at the end of the Second Age

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Speaker 1: of the Sun and the Ring was lost, but Saron

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Speaker 1: did not perish because the One Ring still existed, and

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Speaker 1: his fate is bound to it. Um. Even if you're

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Speaker 1: more familiar with Harry Potter than Lord of the Rings,

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Speaker 1: you can think of the One Ring is like is

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Speaker 1: the horcrux, the single horr crux for Saaron. I suppose

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Speaker 1: so in his in his reincarnated form, without a body,

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Speaker 1: he depends on this ring, or else he cannot survive, right,

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Speaker 1: And so in the year one thousand of the third

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Speaker 1: Age of the Sun, he rises again as the great

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Speaker 1: Littless Eye Uh, seeking the Ring, waging the War of

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Speaker 1: the Ring. But his adversaries have found it first, and

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Speaker 1: they've hatched a plan to destroy it by the only

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Speaker 1: known means, casting it back into the volcanic fires from

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Speaker 1: which it was forged. Okay, so there you've got the

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Speaker 1: setting of the Lord of the Rings. So you've got

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Speaker 1: to take this ring back into enemy territory to throw

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Speaker 1: it into a volcano, which is the only way it

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Speaker 1: can be destroyed, the only way to destroy this great

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Speaker 1: enemy God sorcerer thing. Um. Now, we there are scenes

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Speaker 1: in the movies, and I'm trying to recall there in

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Speaker 1: the book too. I mean we're like, for example, Gimli

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Speaker 1: the Dwarf played by John Ree Davies and the Peter

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Speaker 1: Jackson movies, uh that you know, they're getting the speech

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Speaker 1: about how the Ring must be destroyed in order to

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Speaker 1: defeat Sauron. So he just whips out his axe and

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Speaker 1: he's like, all right, let's bust it. And he just

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Speaker 1: swings his axe at the at the ring. But it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work right. He instead, I think his ax breaks

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Speaker 1: on it when he tries to cleave the ring with it.

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Speaker 1: So the ring is uh portrayed as something that is

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Speaker 1: completely indestructible except in the fires of the volcano where

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Speaker 1: it was forged. Yeah, there's a there's a great passage

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Speaker 1: in the Fellowship of the Ring where Gandolf explains all

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Speaker 1: this to Frodo after it's been cast into the fireplace

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Speaker 1: once and Frodo has has tried to will himself to

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Speaker 1: throw it once more into the deepest part of the fire,

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Speaker 1: but cannot, and so Gandalf says the following, But as

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Speaker 1: for breaking the ring, force is useless. Even if you

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Speaker 1: took it and struck it with a heavy sledge hammer,

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Speaker 1: it would make no dent in it. It cannot be

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Speaker 1: unmade by your hands or by mine. Your small fire,

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Speaker 1: of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This ring

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Speaker 1: has already passed through it unscathed and even unheeded. But

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Speaker 1: there is no smith's forge in this shire that could

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Speaker 1: change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces

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Speaker 1: of the dwarves could do that. It has been said

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Speaker 1: that dragon fire could melt and consume the rings of power,

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Speaker 1: but there is not now any dragon left on Earth

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Speaker 1: in which the old fire is hot enough, Nor was

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Speaker 1: there ever any dragon, not even on Callaghan the Black,

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Speaker 1: who could have harmed the one ring, the ruling Ring,

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Speaker 1: for that was made by Saron himself. There is only

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Speaker 1: one way to find the cracks of Doom and the

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Speaker 1: depths of Oro Dron the fire Mount, to cast the

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Speaker 1: ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it,

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Speaker 1: to put it beyond the grasp of the enemy forever.

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Speaker 1: Thus spoke Gandalf, and Gandalf knew what he was talking about.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I've always thought Serena McKellen made a

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Speaker 1: great Gandalf, but I do have a strong attachment to

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Speaker 1: John Houston's Gandolf. In the nineteen seventy seven animated version

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties Return of the King. Um, so

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Speaker 1: that you know that that was the token of of

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Speaker 1: my childhood, and so I was trying to summon a

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Speaker 1: little John Houston flavor there my limited ability to do so,

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Speaker 1: the ones that make saw Rouman in the Santa Claus

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Speaker 1: like his red robes. Um. You know, I haven't rewatched

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Speaker 1: the Return of the King in a while, but but

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Speaker 1: I have rewatched the Hobbit. I that it held up

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Speaker 1: pretty well. You know. Oh, I totally agree that Ian

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Speaker 1: mckelen is a great Gandalf. In fact, I would say

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Speaker 1: that even if you don't like the movies for any

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Speaker 1: other reason, the Peter Jackson films are great just for

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Speaker 1: Ian McKellen's performance. Oh yeah, and I mean Christopher Lee.

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Speaker 1: It's it's got a wonderful oh Christopher Lee. Of course

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Speaker 1: that goes without saying. Uh So another note on the ring,

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Speaker 1: just real quick. Not that it's very important to what

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about for most of the episode,

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Speaker 1: but what happens when you wear the ring? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was actually trying to figure this out, even though

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Speaker 1: I know the story. I was last night I was googling, like,

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Speaker 1: what does the Ring actually, do you know, other than

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Speaker 1: we know it confers this kind of vague power, but

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Speaker 1: it actually does have some specified powers in the mythology.

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Speaker 1: I mean the big one of course, and this is

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Speaker 1: the one that comes up in the Hobbit as well,

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Speaker 1: is that when you put it on, you become invisible

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Speaker 1: to most creatures, though at the same time you become

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Speaker 1: highly visible to certain other beings, namely the Ring wraiths,

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Speaker 1: Um and Uh and saw On himself. But it's like

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Speaker 1: allows you to sort of shift into another plane of

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Speaker 1: existence and doing so become invisible. But I think that's

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Speaker 1: only for some creatures who wear it, right, Um, I

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Speaker 1: mean the making them invisible? Right, Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's implied that Winn saw On

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Speaker 1: himself wears that he is invisible. But then again, it's

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Speaker 1: a different matter when you know, the dark Lord himself

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Speaker 1: wears the ring, as opposed to when a mortal wears

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Speaker 1: the ring. Oh, and I guess another thing to specifies

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Speaker 1: that the Wonder Ring, the powers of the Wondering maybe

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Speaker 1: greater or different than the powers of the other rings

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Speaker 1: that were given off to the to the kings of

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Speaker 1: the Mortals and the Elves. Yes, yeah, it is the

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Speaker 1: it is the Great Ring. It is the one that

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Speaker 1: the Master himself forged. Um. And you know, one note

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Speaker 1: again about the sort of the origins of saar On

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Speaker 1: is that in his like previous life, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like an unfallen entity as one of these Maya spirits.

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Speaker 1: He originally served the the ann or forge god a

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Speaker 1: Uli if I'm saying that right, who is you know,

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Speaker 1: a god of the fords, like a Festus. So you

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Speaker 1: know he would have had, you know, presumably had access

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Speaker 1: to all knowledge of metallurgy and uh and metal making

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Speaker 1: and crafting in general. Yeah, well, maybe we should take

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Speaker 1: a break and then we come back. We can explore

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Speaker 1: some questions about what the Ring of Power could possibly

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Speaker 1: be made of. All right, we're back. So you know

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Speaker 1: we're gonna again. We're gonna cherry pick a little bit here.

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Speaker 1: This is not going to be, you know, a perfect

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Speaker 1: dissection of everything. I don't think Tolkien was going for

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Speaker 1: hard sci fi no, and what I wanted him to,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, oh my god, wait, no, that's

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Speaker 1: a brilliant idea. So we've had various rewrites of Lord

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Speaker 1: of the Rings. Uh, you know, there is the rewrite

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Speaker 1: of the story that tells it from more Door's perspective

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Speaker 1: that casts like Gandalf and the Elves as as the

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Speaker 1: villains and says, actually, more Door is just a you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just a region of people who are trying to

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Speaker 1: develop industrial technology and they're being oppressed by these you know,

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Speaker 1: ancient kingdoms of magic users and they're fighting back. So

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Speaker 1: that that's like that, which which is a wonderful treatment idea.

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Speaker 1: I haven't read it, but it's a wonderful idea because

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Speaker 1: you see that in plenty of like in plenty of

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Speaker 1: myths and stories of old where he's got one side

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Speaker 1: is is cast as the heroes, the other side as

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Speaker 1: the demonic other, and the reality is is, you know,

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Speaker 1: is something different than that. There's something more balanced probably, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So so yeah, there's like that take. But here's the

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Speaker 1: take I want now, like the Arthur C. Clark version

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Speaker 1: of The Rings that tries to tell the same story

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Speaker 1: but just imagines everything is like totally mundane physics and

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Speaker 1: chemistry and and how all that has achieved. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: let's get into I guess some of the chemistry here. Um,

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Speaker 1: so let's just start by talking about things you could

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Speaker 1: throw a ring into in an attempt to melt it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So so to refresh again, you've got this ring of power.

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Speaker 1: You need to destroy it to defeat the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: But you can't just throw it in a regular fire.

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Speaker 1: The heroes can't do anything about it except to take

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Speaker 1: it back to the volcano where it was made. That's

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Speaker 1: the only thing that will destroy it. Right. In terms

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Speaker 1: of fire sources, Gandalf says, fireplace isn't going to cut it.

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Speaker 1: A dwarf and furnace isn't gonna cut it. Only the

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Speaker 1: volcano can can cut it. So let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: temperatures involved here. So, uh, first of all, let's take

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Speaker 1: the Hobbits fireplace. If you look for a you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at a maximum open wood fireplace temperature. UM.

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Speaker 1: I was looking around for sources on this. I found

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Speaker 1: a few different different ones that that more or less

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Speaker 1: match up. Hearth dot com, which indeed is a place

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Speaker 1: for people who are just into fireplaces to talk about fireplaces. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they have like a message board, definitely, it's a full

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Speaker 1: message board, but its it lists an average fireplaces being

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Speaker 1: somewhere between uh one thousand, two hundred degrees to d

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Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit. I've also seen it as high as sixteen

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Speaker 1: hundred um again for the hottest part of the fire,

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Speaker 1: where Froto never actually throws it because the will of

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Speaker 1: the Ring prevents it. Uh. And as far as Celsius,

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Speaker 1: we'd be talking a range of roughly what's six degrees okay? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And And to clarify there, I guess this doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter for the episode. But that's another thing about the

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Speaker 1: Ring is that the wing, the ring sort of has

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Speaker 1: a will of its own, and so it even when

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Speaker 1: a character wants to destroy it, the Ring sort of

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Speaker 1: messes with their mind and says, maybe you shouldn't destroy it.

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Speaker 1: So it's implied here that maybe Frodo was trying to

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Speaker 1: destroy it, but he hedged a bit threw it into

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Speaker 1: the cooler part of the fire. Is that what you're saying? Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that, Like the first time it

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Speaker 1: goes into the fire. Yeah, perhaps, though I mean really probably,

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Speaker 1: because that's how the Ring works, and that's how it

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Speaker 1: works its will. Okay. So the Hobbits fireplace, we'll come

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Speaker 1: back to those. Uh. That actual temperature again, the Hobbits

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Speaker 1: fireplaces get hotter than than other fireplaces are not as hot.

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Speaker 1: And I was just say, they're just as hot as

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Speaker 1: any fireplace. It's standard, you know, I mean it's an

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Speaker 1: open fireplace. Now, let's u sit. None of the dwarves

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Speaker 1: they're really into working metal, right, Yes, so dwarves are

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Speaker 1: known for their metal work. So this makes us wonder

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Speaker 1: what is the maximum temperature of a furnace, But specifically

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Speaker 1: we should think about a medieval furnace, right, because essentially

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Speaker 1: the fantasy world of the Lord of the Rings is

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Speaker 1: as a medieval world. They're not in some like steel

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Speaker 1: foundry of today. Right. So a typical blast furnace today

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Speaker 1: that's going to reach temperatures of up to three thousand

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Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit or uh one thousand, six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: degrees celsius. But during the Middle Ages, smelting tempts in

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Speaker 1: Europe were not quite that high. So I was looking

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Speaker 1: around for a source on this, and I ran across

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Speaker 1: a website called our lima dot net. And this is

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Speaker 1: by Bert Hall from the Institute of for the History

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Speaker 1: and Philosophy of Science and Technology at the University of Toronto,

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Speaker 1: and he says the following quote, the temperature inside the

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Speaker 1: furnace is a critical variable. Most early smelters in Europe

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Speaker 1: could reach average temperatures of about seven hundred degrees celsius

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Speaker 1: and uh, that would be one thousand two d degrees fahrenheit.

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Speaker 1: And he continues. Now, pure iron has a very high

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Speaker 1: melting point, about one thousand, five thirty degrees celsius, and

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Speaker 1: that would be two thousand, seven eighty six degrees fahrenheit.

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Speaker 1: So when the newly formed mass of iron coalesces at

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Speaker 1: seven hundred degrees, it remains a red hot, slightly plastic

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Speaker 1: solid called a bloom. The smith can hammer on this

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Speaker 1: hot mass to shape it and to make it it's

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Speaker 1: extrude lumps of impurities that it might otherwise congeal around.

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Speaker 1: So that would give us a basic temperature to work

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Speaker 1: with here, seven hundred degrees celsius or one thousand, two

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Speaker 1: hundred degrees fahrenheit. Okay, So one thing that points out,

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Speaker 1: which might be relevant to what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: is you don't have to fully reach the melting point

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Speaker 1: of a metal in order to do something to it right.

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Speaker 1: You can. You can work with metal that's not fully liquefied.

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Speaker 1: You can just get it up to a temperature where

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Speaker 1: its strength is reduced and you can deform it to

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Speaker 1: hammer the cuss out of it. Once it's soft, you

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Speaker 1: don't have to like reduce it into a liquid that

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Speaker 1: you pour into a mold or something. Um So. And

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Speaker 1: then but one of the things that Gandalf mentions two

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Speaker 1: is you can't just be this thing with a hammer

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Speaker 1: and expect to destroy it either. So my read on

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Speaker 1: this to sort of you know, uh, you know, underpin

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is if we think of

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Speaker 1: the ring, I think of it like a like a

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Speaker 1: mythical magical creature like a vampire or something where you

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Speaker 1: can't just shoot it. You have to be headed or

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00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: completely immolated like there must you must reach a threshold

401
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 1: of absolute destruction to keep it from you know, healing

402
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: itself or or whatnot. Okay, so maybe the idea is

403
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Speaker 1: if you slightly deformed the ring, it would kind of

404
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: bounce back, because again, the ring has a will of

405
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Speaker 1: its own. Yeah. That's my imperfect read on this, because

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Speaker 1: some people might say, well, technically Gandalf says, the ring

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Speaker 1: doesn't even get hot in the fire. Okay, fine, that's true.

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Speaker 1: I was also trying to look for things about that

409
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Speaker 1: about like metals that don't get hot when heat. I

410
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 1: guess that would be poor thermal conductors. Uh, there are

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Speaker 1: some like like bismuth is a metal that is a

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Speaker 1: poor thermal conductor. I don't mean to suggest that the

413
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 1: token had in mind that the ring was made out

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Speaker 1: of bismuth. Of course, bismuth has a has a much

415
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Speaker 1: lower melting point, so that easily melted in a furnace. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm going to stick to my interpretation that

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Speaker 1: to destroy the ring of power, you would have to

418
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Speaker 1: destroy it absolutely. You would have to just completely either

419
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: shatter it into uh, into dust or even better and

420
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: more easily done in a in a world like this

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Speaker 1: melted into nothing. But as we've discussed already, a fireplace

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Speaker 1: isn't gonna do it, and a dwarf and furnace isn't

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to do it either, assuming that it's

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Speaker 1: you know, more or less a parallel to medieval smelting technology.

425
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: All right, so apparently you've got to use volcano. But

426
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: that makes me wonder how hot the volcanoes get. Do

427
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 1: they actually get hotter than furnace? Yes? Uh, they do.

428
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: So I was looking into this, Um, you know, so

429
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: Mount Doom is a volcano. We have volcanoes, so uh,

430
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: luckily we can we can definitely, you know, we can

431
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: definitely look to that like that. The volcano isn't going

432
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: to change. You can't say, oh, it's a dwarf in volcano,

433
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: maybe it would have been different. No, it's a volcano.

434
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: So we're talking about the temperature of magma. Uh. And

435
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: there are a few different types of magma to consider. So,

436
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: for instance, there's a basaltic magma which is high and iron,

437
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: magnesium and calcium, but low and potassium and sodium, and

438
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 1: it ranges in temperature from about a thousand celsius to

439
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,719
Speaker 1: one thousand, two hundred celsius. And that's between one thousand,

440
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: eight hundred thirty two degrees fahrenheit and two thousand, one

441
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,239
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety two degrees fahrenheit. Um and uh and

442
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: that's a specific example of this fountaining magma from Coupe

443
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: Bay Anaha um Uh it's a volcano in Hawaii. Uh.

444
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: And this is uh basalt magma here, uh, the magma

445
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: in the lake. There has been a record to reach

446
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 1: temperatures of one thousand fifty three degrees celsius or two thousand,

447
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: one hundred and seven point four degrees fahrenheit, and that

448
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 1: was on January nine, nineteen ninety uh. This, according to Pinkerton,

449
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 1: at all a hot ear for lava, right, and this

450
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: is thought to be a reasonable reflection of the internal

451
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: lava temperature. One thing to even mind is that the lava,

452
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: the lava at the surface, is going to cool off

453
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: very quickly when it contacts the air, dropping hundreds of

454
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: degrees in a second. This pointed out in an excellent

455
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: article in The New York Times by c Clayborne Ray

456
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: titled how hot can lava gate? So I reckon question? Yeah,

457
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: I recommend that for anyone wants a deeper dive. But

458
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 1: now there are a few other different types of magma

459
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: as well, but I'm just gonna skip over those because

460
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: we've already touched on the hottest magma and and it's

461
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: it's Mount Doomed, so it should be the hottest magma.

462
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: Maybe we should because the other magma names has sound

463
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: like Tolkien words and acidic magma you've got them here,

464
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 1: rhyolitic magma rhyolytics sounds very token. It is. Yeah, Dasite

465
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: is the other one. Ryotel. But but these are these

466
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: are all gonna have you know, these are gonna be cool.

467
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: They're still magma, they're still very hot. But we're gonna

468
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: stick with the with it with the hottest magma for

469
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: our purposes here and again, the hottest magma we've considered

470
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: here is one thousand, two hundred degrees celsius or two

471
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 1: thousand one hugrees fahrenheit, and the medieval forge temperatures, uh,

472
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: you know, are seemingly in the range of seven hundred

473
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: degrees celsius or one thousand two degrees fahrenheit. So it's

474
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: definitely a situation where the forage is not as hot

475
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: as the magma. Like we can at least we can

476
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: at least say that, yes, this makes sense that something

477
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: that could not be burned in the dwarf and forge

478
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: could still be burned, could be still be melted away

479
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: inside of a volcano. Now, if we were talking about

480
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: a modern furnace, that would would be a significantly different issue. Yes,

481
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: so a modern furnace is going to trump the mountain.

482
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: And and I think you know, Gandalf mentions dragon fire

483
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: like nice healthy smog. Dragon fire could have done it.

484
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: And if we think of that as being more or

485
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: less on par with perhaps a modern blast furnace. Uh,

486
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: that would have been like, you know, the three thousand

487
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit um than than Yeah, that's that's that's another

488
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 1: number to just sort of keep in the back of

489
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: our mind as we proceed here. So what you should

490
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: have done is just give somebody the ring and then

491
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: get them to go annoy a dragon. But there are

492
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: no more dragons left, or at least none that are

493
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: healthy enough to do this. That's that's Gandalf's point, because

494
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 1: Smag could have probably done it, but you already killed

495
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: off Smog in the first book. Also, you know, Smag

496
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't have gone along with that plan. He would have

497
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: sniffed it out too clever for that. So so that

498
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: leads us to consider all, like all the elements then,

499
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: and which ones have a high enough melting point that

500
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: they would be beyond the melting abilities of of the

501
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: dwarve in furnace but within the milt abilities of the volcano. Okay,

502
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: that makes sense to me. So again, the highest temperature

503
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: we've reached here via magma two thousand, one hundred ninety

504
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: two degrees fahrenheit or one thousand, two hundred degrees celsius.

505
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: And when we start looking at the melting points of

506
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: various elements, there there are elements that are below that

507
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: that melting point. There are also elements that have a

508
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: much higher melting point that that you could you could

509
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: not fully melt even within the fires of Mountain Doom,

510
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: well unless you assume to the Mountain Doom is somehow

511
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: magical in some way. Right now. One of the one

512
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: of the problems I guess here is though, when you

513
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: start looking at some just like standard metals that could

514
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: be uh you know, they could you could forge a

515
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: ring out of even some of them, Like we're doing

516
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: some pretty high melting points, Like melting point of iron

517
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: is um uh two thousand, eight hundred degrees fahrenheit. Melting

518
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: point of steel gets up that high as well. Uh

519
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: So like these are already, um you know, these are

520
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 1: gonna be beyond the ability of of Mount Doom to

521
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: fully melt, if that's indeed what we have to depend on.

522
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: And then you look at other things like like a

523
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: palladium has a melting point of two thousand, eight hundred

524
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: and thirty point eight two degrees fahrenheit. Uh tungsten uh

525
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: six thousand, one nine two degrees fahrenheit, uranium two thousand

526
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: and seventy degrees fahrenheit. You know, these are again for

527
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: for absolute melting to take place. Uh. So you know

528
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: that kind of muddies things a bit, I guess. But

529
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: but then again, one of the things to think about

530
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: Saron is that, like he's a powerful entity. I wonder

531
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: is he even limited by just going to the shores

532
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: of the volcanic lake, Like maybe he can go down

533
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 1: within the volcano, maybe he can he can go to

534
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: even greater depths in the earth, and and that's where

535
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: the foraging is taking place. You know that, like this

536
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: is something that is forged not nearly within a volcano,

537
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: but within like the heart of the earth, the depths

538
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: of Mount Doom, not not the surface of Mount Doom.

539
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: Right now, I ended up like making a whole list

540
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: of different elements, and they're melting points in both celsius

541
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: and fahrenheit, which I am I'm going to not read

542
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: that entire list because it's if we get tedious fast. Uh.

543
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: And also, you know when we throw a bunch of

544
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: numbers at you, I know it's it's not gonna necessarily

545
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: do anything. But basically, you know, there's a whole range

546
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: here things with greater and lesser melting points, but not

547
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: all of them are going to be quite suitable for

548
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: crafting anything out of you especially a ring. Uh and

549
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: and god bless the Internet for this, but there are

550
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: there are tons of discussions online regarding whether you could

551
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: make a sword out of any given element. So there'll

552
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: be a lot of you know, some of these are

553
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: are you know, fantasy or sci fi or sometimes you

554
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: know more they're more like you know, sword nerd websites

555
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: and someone will be like, could I make a sword

556
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: out of uranium? And people be like, well, then not

557
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: a very good sword. Yes you could make you could

558
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: make a sword, but it would be heavy, it wouldn't

559
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: the fact that it was made out of uranium wouldn't

560
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: really give you much of an advantage in combat. That

561
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Or you know, titanium being another one

562
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: where similar questions are asked. Uh, you know where pure

563
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: titanium sort. It sounds great in a you know, fantasy sense,

564
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: but when you start looking at the details there, well,

565
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: it would be you know, it would it would be more,

566
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: it would be brittle. It wouldn't hold up to repeated use,

567
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. One of the more impressive elements

568
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: that pops up, though, is tungsten um. Tungsten has a

569
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: melting point of six thousand one dgrees fahrenheit or three thousand,

570
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: four hundred and twenty two degrees celsius, and it has

571
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: a number of industrial uses due to its durability, and

572
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: it's used in alloys for this purpose as well, because

573
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: it is very resistant to heat. Not only is tungsten

574
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: potentially a great choice for the one ring, uh you

575
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: you can actually go online right now and you can

576
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: order tungsten or tungsten alloy replicas of the one Ring

577
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: from the Lord of the Rings movie. So I don't

578
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: think we're breaking any new ground by saying maybe tungsten

579
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: um so you can heat them up and they'll glow. Yeah, Well,

580
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. There weren't any product images that show

581
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: people taking them up in their hobbit and their shier hearts.

582
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: But an interesting thing about about something like tungsten, because

583
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: because it might you know, it forces you to ask, well,

584
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: how do you forge something with such a high temperature?

585
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: So it's it's not worked like other metals in a forge.

586
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: What you do is you take powdered tungsten and it's

587
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: generally mixed with small amounts of say, powdered nickel or

588
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: other metals, and then it is centered or formed into

589
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: a coherent mass by heating without melting. So this could

590
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: conceivably be the forging technology that that's saar On acquires

591
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: from the you know, the smelting lords of old and

592
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: brings into his creation of the One Ring. Uh, you

593
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: know again, there's still some problems there when you started saying, well, then,

594
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: you know, how how is it destroyed? Then? But I

595
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: think tungsten is a you know, a reasonable guess. If

596
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: we're to limit ourselves to the you know, the scientific

597
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: world for making guesses about uh, you know, highly powerful

598
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: magical objects, how about some crazier guesses. Yeah, well, let's

599
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break, and when we come back,

600
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: we'll get crazier with our guesses regarding the material that

601
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: was used to compose the One Ring. Alright, we're back.

602
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: We're talking about the One Ring and what it could

603
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: conceivably be made of aside from magic. Okay, I think

604
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: we're getting into weirder possible answers now, but I was

605
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out. You know, there's a there's

606
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: that scene where Gimli tries to smash it with his ax,

607
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: and you have to assume that since Gimle Gimli's a

608
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: he's a tough dude, right, he should be able to

609
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: cleave just about any middle earthly material with a swift

610
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: blow of his mighty acts. Right, So what could withstand

611
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: his mind? And furthermore, I should point out in the

612
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: movie version with Peter Jackson, it's John Ree Davies. And

613
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: even if Gimli couldn't smash the ring, John Ree stay

614
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: v should be able to smash throing. He I mean,

615
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: he brings the solid energy. So whatever that is, I

616
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: have to assume it's got to be like the strongest

617
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: material in the entire world. So what is the strongest

618
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 1: material in the entire world? I think it depends on

619
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: whether you're counting hypothetical materials that may exist somewhere in

620
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: the universe versus materials that we can actually touch here

621
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: in the lab. But maybe first we go to the

622
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: hypothetical materials somewhere in the universe. So it is the

623
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: fate of some dying stars to become a neutron star.

624
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: Recently on the podcast, also we've been talking about black holes,

625
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: and this is a similar story. You've got a massive star,

626
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: maybe something with about ten times the mass of the Sun.

627
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: It grows old, it uses up its hydrogen fuel, it

628
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: begins fusing heavier elements, and then it uses those up.

629
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: It can't hold itself up with the energy of its

630
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: fusion anymore, and it eventually explodes in a supernova. The

631
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: heavy core collapses, the outer structure of lighter materials gets

632
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: blown out into space in this enormous blast of energy

633
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: and matter, and what's left behind is this incredibly dense core,

634
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: and gravity causes it to collapse in on itself. And

635
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: if the core is dense enough, it can go over

636
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: the edge, of course and become a black hole. But

637
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: if it's not dense enough, it becomes a neutron star,

638
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: the densest non black hole object in the universe, so

639
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: basically the densest thing that doesn't break our theories of physics.

640
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: So these leftover star cores display bizarre nuclear chemistry because

641
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: of how dense they are. You can tell from the

642
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 1: name neutron star. They tend to have an overwhelming population

643
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: of neutrons the sub atomic particles that are electrically neutral,

644
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: and this is because the intense gravity of the object

645
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: presses positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons together and

646
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: they combine to form neutrons. And so neutron on stars

647
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: have physical properties that are amazing to read about and

648
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: impossible to picture. That they can cram more than the

649
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: mass of the Sun into a sphere that's roughly just

650
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: a dozen miles or so across, like the mass of

651
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: the Sun inside a ball the size of a city.

652
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: And for a long time it's been a mystery of

653
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: astrophysics what exactly the inner layers of a neutron star

654
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: are made of. But more recently physicists have created these

655
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: simulations of what should be happening inside the flesh of

656
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: a neutron star, and they show these strange types of

657
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: ultra dense material probably living underneath the outer crust of

658
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: neutron stars. And these materials are known as nuclear pasta.

659
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,720
Speaker 1: They're named that because in the simulations they sometimes resemble

660
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: different pasta shapes. Uh and like these different pasta shapes

661
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: would form a different strata of the neutron star. I think,

662
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: so you get nuclear spaghetti, you get no key, you

663
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: get buka tini or anti spaghetti, and you get lasagna sheets. Now, obviously,

664
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: because of the incredible density of this neutron swollen material,

665
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: it's probably gonna be hard to cleave it with an AX.

666
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: But how strong is it? While I was looking at

667
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: one study from eighteen by Kaplan, Schneider, and Horowitz called

668
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: Elasticity of nuclear pasta in Physical Review Letters and H

669
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: some of this nuclear pasta, they concluded, is probably the

670
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: strongest material in the entire universe, ten billion times stronger

671
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: than steel. So that's strong enough for you. That's pretty strong.

672
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I

673
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: could tell the difference between ten billion times stronger than

674
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: steel and ten thousand times stronger than steel. I mean,

675
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: what what is the difference there? But yeah, I mean

676
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: it's it just places it in orders a magnitude beyond

677
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: the ability of a dwarf and AX to to deal with,

678
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: or a dwarf in furnace. I would have to say

679
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: that no matter how strong Gimli is, no matter how

680
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: sharp his acts, he probably cannot mess with a ring

681
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: made of nuclear pasta. So nuclear pasta that's over the

682
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, you can't destroy it unless you've got some

683
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 1: kind of magic working in Mount Doom. Obviously it wouldn't

684
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: melt in Mountain Doom, right, Yeah, I mean this is

685
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: this is another one where it is forcing me to

686
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: rethink what I said earlier about the about absolute destruction

687
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: of the ring being necessary to render it powerless. I

688
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,959
Speaker 1: feel like there's still a threshold of destruction that needs

689
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: to be wrought on the ring before it snaps and

690
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: leases power and the dark Lords defeated. But I think

691
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: that that threshold probably fall short of actually melting it.

692
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe it's a it's a moral defeat rather

693
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: than a physical destruction, yeah, or whatever. Is like, it

694
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: has to become malleable enough for the magic to leave it. Uh,

695
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: And for that to happen, it needs to it needs

696
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: to fall into a volcano or or or even the

697
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: depths of a volcano. Yeah. Now, there are a couple

698
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: of reasons why nuclear Pasta is probably not a good

699
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: candidate to make a ring out of. One is that

700
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 1: it is probably a bit too heavy, and other is

701
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: that it would I assume it would not react well

702
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: with the atmosphere of an environment like Middle Earth that

703
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: might sort of you know, become a big explosion or something.

704
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: But but all you know, just imagine you had a

705
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: stable ring made of nuclear pasta. It's probably too heavy

706
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: to make an effective ring. A commonly cited figure is

707
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: that about a teaspoon of the material that makes up

708
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: a neutron star would weigh more than a billion tons.

709
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: So that would be a difficult ring to wear. Uh,

710
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: you might need some help carrying it. Uh. Yeah, you know,

711
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 1: it's believable. I guess that you know, Saon could could

712
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: carry it. I mean that he's such a powerful entity.

713
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: But I don't know about a hobbit. Now, is there

714
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 1: anything lighter that is still strong with a high melting point?

715
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: One good candidate I think here, though it is a

716
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: modern invention is graphine. Graphine is carbon, of course, just carbon,

717
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: but it's carbon with a special molecular formation. It's a

718
00:38:55,120 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 1: single layer of hexagonal rings of carbon carbon molecules sucking

719
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: with other hexagons at every vertex, and it's one atom

720
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: thick but sort of perfect on the molecular level. And

721
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: it's often thought of as a kind of cutting edge

722
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: super material. It does have some amazing properties. It's electrically conductive,

723
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: so it has been singled out for potential uses in

724
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: in future electronics. It's extremely light well at the same

725
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: time being stronger than steel. I've seen estimates including between

726
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: two hundred and three hundred times stronger than steel. The

727
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: problem with graphing is that it's difficult to produce on

728
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: a large scale. Uh, not that it's necessarily difficult to

729
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: produce in general. I was reading about one method that

730
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: can create layers of graphing just by heating up soybean oil,

731
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: but you don't get a lot out of it. Now,

732
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: I like this idea that the ring is not just

733
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: a material but a meta material, you know, I mean,

734
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: which it would makes perfect sense. And this is the

735
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: product of a being that's studied at the at the

736
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: Forge of the Gods. So you know, therefore, like we're

737
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to linn him and his abilities

738
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: based on you know, medieval or even modern levels of

739
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 1: of of metallurgical power and knowledge. Right, we're thinking about

740
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: him as like sort of a magical smith. Maybe instead

741
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: we should be thinking about him as some kind of

742
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: material scientists. Uh so, Yeah, I was looking at one

743
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: paper dealing with the melting point of graphing and I

744
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: was wondering what that is. It's really high. Uh, it was.

745
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: So this was in physical chemistry chemical physics. I don't

746
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: know if that's a double name. That was The journal

747
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: by gans, gans Yang and Dornfield in called the initial

748
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: stages of Melting of graphing between four thousand K and

749
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 1: six thousand K. That's really hot. The authors say graphing

750
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: has one of the highest melting points of any known substance. Basically,

751
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: they use these models to say, Okay, what would it

752
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: look like if you heat it up graphing to these

753
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: temperatures for these lengths of time? And uh, they found

754
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: that you could heat graphing up for a certain amount

755
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: of time to four thousand and five hundred degrees kelvin,

756
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: which is really hot, and it still wouldn't melt. It

757
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: would just sort of it would It would still be freestanding.

758
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 1: And they set around five thousand degrees kelvin the system

759
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: would start to melt. Five thousand degrees kelvin is roughly

760
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: forty seven celsius or eight hundred fahrenheit. That's is that

761
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: hotter than any of the other stuff we looked at. Yeah,

762
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty hot. Okay, So the surface of the

763
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: Sun at roughly five thousand, eight hundred degrees kelvin could

764
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: probably melt this form of graphine, But a normal volcano

765
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough to melt the graphine one ring. So

766
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: is Mount Doom hotter than the surface of the Sun

767
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: or their special properties involved here? No, but this would

768
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: this would make me come back to the idea that

769
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: at least with the problem that it's forging. What if

770
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: Sauron had to go to the volcano, not to forge

771
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: it at the shores of the volcanic lake, but like

772
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: descended to the center of the planet where you would

773
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: have temperatures that would be you know, on par with

774
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: the surface of the Sun. As for them to scrowing

775
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: it by casting it into the volcano, well that's that's

776
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: where you end up in a problematic area again, because

777
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: if that's the case, if it needs to reach the

778
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: center of the planet to be destroyed, well then that

779
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 1: means the the end of the Lord of the Rings

780
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: is not an end at all, and that the Dark

781
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: Lord was never defeated and is you know, destined to

782
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: return time and time again the end question mark No,

783
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: This is a perfect explanation for why the end of

784
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: the third movie went on for seven hours. They were

785
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: waiting for the ring to sink sink low enough to

786
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 1: really get hot enough to melt under all that pressure. Yeah,

787
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: and another main problem with graphine, I should say, oh,

788
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: I already mentioned this. It's it's so the problem is

789
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: that it's it's hard to manufacture large amounts of it.

790
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: But I don't know if that would be a problem

791
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: for Saron, because what if he just needed enough for

792
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: one little hobbit finger sized ring. That's true, of course

793
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: when he's a when he's the Dark Lord, he's somewhat

794
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 1: bigger in it, and it still fits around his finger.

795
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I was wondering about this very thing.

796
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: How us the ring fit a hobbit finger just fine,

797
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: but also fit the fingers of much larger creatures just

798
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, may they address that. They don't.

799
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: It's just magic. That's what magical rings do. One size

800
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: fits all. Um. I don't know. I mean you could,

801
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: I guess you could go really sci fi crazy and say, well,

802
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: the ring is actually composed out of like nano robotic material.

803
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: That is, you know, the these tiny nanobots that that

804
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: fused together and carry out all these various processes to

805
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, to to do all the things that the

806
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: Ring does. But I don't know at that point, you're

807
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: really you're really busting the magic out of it. I like,

808
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: I like the idea of keeping some level of magic

809
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: in the Ring and not not describing it all the way. Nope,

810
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: you already ruined it. The Ring is nanobots. That's what

811
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: it is now and forevermore. All right, So there you

812
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: have it. It is one of those episodes where I

813
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: guess we don't really have a conclusive answer, and you know,

814
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: north should we. But hopefully we've given some giving you

815
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: some food for thought, and and also provide did an

816
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: excuse and a means of discussing, you know, some of

817
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: the temperatures and melting points involved here. Um, if if

818
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from anyone out there who is

819
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: you know, a big Tolkien fan or someone who is

820
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, certainly more experienced than us with with the

821
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: use of forges, with with some of these materials. Uh,

822
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, we'd love to get your thoughts on it

823
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: as well. Uh. And for that matter, are there other

824
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: Tolkien related topics you'd like us to to tease apart

825
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: I think I wrote a piece for how Stuff Works

826
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: years ago about hobbit metabolism, which which actually they're like

827
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: there were There were at least a couple of papers

828
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: I was able to cite for the article where people

829
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: are like, Okay, let's see how much I can breakfast?

830
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: How much does the hobbit eat? And then and so forth?

831
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 1: So I look that up. It's on how stuff Works

832
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: dot com. In the meantime, if you want more episodes

833
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: of stuff to blow your mind, I don't know the

834
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind dot com that's the mothership.

835
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: That's where you'll find them all. And if your interest

836
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: it in uh, you know others, let's say, not magical inventions,

837
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: but more mundane but equally amazing inventions, check out our

838
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: other podcast, Invention. You can find it at invention pod

839
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: dot com. And you can find both shows wherever you

840
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: get your podcast. Wherever you do get it, just make

841
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: sure you rate and review because that really helps us

842
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: out in the long run. Huge thanks to our producers

843
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: uh Seth Nicholas Johnson, and Maya Cole. If you would

844
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us with feedback on

845
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: this episode or any other to suggest topic for the future,

846
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: or just to say hello. You can email us at

847
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: contact That's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff

848
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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my heart Radio

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Speaker 1: is at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

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Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Many persisted or pro