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Speaker 1: the irears. I don't know stories of things we simply
Speaker 1: don't know the answer. Tune. Hey guys, welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. I am Devin, joined
Speaker 1: this week by Joe and Steve. We're recording like a
Speaker 1: week after Crime Con right now. It was fun. It
Speaker 1: was really fun. Not to like rub in the noses
Speaker 1: of the people who weren't able to come, but it
Speaker 1: was really fun every single one of you. Um So,
Speaker 1: I apologized for the little raspy nature of my voice.
Speaker 1: It's been a long couple of weeks. Uh. This week
Speaker 1: two of crime Con yeah kind of we do yeah,
Speaker 1: where everyone was just um hungover and sad about being there.
Speaker 1: Um So, today we are going to talk about a
Speaker 1: case called Princess Dough. And this is no Princess Dough.
Speaker 1: And this was the listener suggestion in July of two
Speaker 1: thousand fourteen. It was hunter. So thank you. It's not
Speaker 1: when it's not by any means of Mr cruel small
Speaker 1: ears warning, But we're going to talk about murder and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So small ears warning. It's a medium.
Speaker 1: And I kissed today. They're raised and a diet of
Speaker 1: murdering mayhem. You know, there's nothing to them. It's true.
Speaker 1: So Princess Dough is a fifteen to twenty year old
Speaker 1: Jane Doe discovered on the grounds of a graveyard in Blairstown,
Speaker 1: New Jersey, on July fifteenth, nine two back. Princess Doe. Um,
Speaker 1: I think we'll probably just call her Princess from now on.
Speaker 1: You Princess a little simpler was found by a grave
Speaker 1: digger who was employed by the graveyard. Her face was
Speaker 1: quote unquote bludgeon beyond recognition. Is the nicest way that
Speaker 1: I've seen that put. Yeah, you know, I mean what
Speaker 1: my understanding is they couldn't identify the color of her eyes. Yes,
Speaker 1: we must have been one hack of a bludge. Pretty
Speaker 1: pretty Yeah, well, I see. I always wondered if that
Speaker 1: was because of the time that she spent there and
Speaker 1: so there was a little bit of d coop or
Speaker 1: if it was critters. They the investigators seemed to believe
Speaker 1: it was due to the beating de hopper critters were
Speaker 1: exploded because the rest of the body I knew her
Speaker 1: face was Yeah, but you know, like the tongue and
Speaker 1: things like that, would that would also be susceptible to
Speaker 1: critters were in fine condition. So good point. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the small ears. Yeah. Her body was found laying on
Speaker 1: its back with a red T shirt on her body,
Speaker 1: kind of like a peasanty blouse. Yeah. Yeah. And there
Speaker 1: was a long red kind of peasanty skirt, like a
Speaker 1: long flowy skirt that was laid over her legs or
Speaker 1: draped over her legs. She was wearing no underwear. She
Speaker 1: was wearing a gold cross necklace and earrings in her
Speaker 1: left ear, only pictures of which are available. They are
Speaker 1: her only. Her right hand had painted nails, which was
Speaker 1: in a matching red to the clothes that she was
Speaker 1: found in slash under. How often do women paint just
Speaker 1: one side and not the other? Um, It really depends
Speaker 1: on who is It really depends, um, you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's not so much that you've just painted the one hand.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes like a nervous ticks or to pull, like when
Speaker 1: I get really nervous, sometimes I'll pick up my nail
Speaker 1: polish and you just kind of Oftentimes people just pick
Speaker 1: at the one hand. You're sitting me watching me do
Speaker 1: this right now, miming that. And so it's possible that
Speaker 1: she just picked all of it off of one hand
Speaker 1: and not the other, especially if she was right handed.
Speaker 1: And well, there's also the fact that some people just
Speaker 1: can't take it when their nails get scraped up. And
Speaker 1: if you scrape I my wife is this way. She
Speaker 1: scrapes one nail and it's screwed up. She will then
Speaker 1: go ahead and just get out the nail polish remover
Speaker 1: and take it off and neither repaint the nail or
Speaker 1: just take the polish off entirely. Now, this dril might
Speaker 1: have been that, well, the one hands fine, but the
Speaker 1: other looks goofy. So I mean it's there's a whole
Speaker 1: spattering of ways. There's also a lot of conjecture online
Speaker 1: that says that this means that she must have been
Speaker 1: interrupted while painting her nails. But I don't think so,
Speaker 1: because they her nail posh wasn't It wasn't like smeared everywhere.
Speaker 1: It was dry. On the one hand, So it's it's
Speaker 1: unclear why that was. It is a bit of an
Speaker 1: identifying mark. It's possible she was interrupted in mid mid painting,
Speaker 1: but not by violence right away. So the perpetrator, like
Speaker 1: you know, knocks on her door and says, hey, I
Speaker 1: want to go to the graveyard hang out. And then
Speaker 1: so she you know, says okay and leaves with them
Speaker 1: blowing on her nails a little bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: it could have been something like that. I guess favorite
Speaker 1: moment of the podcast so far watching Joe do the blowing,
Speaker 1: the blowing of the nails, motion, shaking of the hand.
Speaker 1: This isn't this isn't alcoholism. This is trying to nail um.
Speaker 1: So she was estimated to be about five two five
Speaker 1: two inches tall. I've seen it as arrange from five
Speaker 1: two to five four. Yeah, but not. I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1: I'm not totally sure why you shrank if you're left
Speaker 1: out in the sun. I don't think you do. I'm
Speaker 1: going with five two. Also, because she was only a
Speaker 1: hundred and fifteen pounds, So I mean, you know, it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's frankly, it's a skinny five two, that's yeah's relatively young,
Speaker 1: at least potentially, well, I mean yeah, I mean even
Speaker 1: twenty years old is pretty young. I was more leaning
Speaker 1: towards the fifteen would make sense. Why she's five two
Speaker 1: and only a D and fifteen. She had blonde hair,
Speaker 1: although previously mentioned, we don't know about her eye color.
Speaker 1: The coroner said that she was likely fourteen to eighteen
Speaker 1: years old, but um, a lot of other places I've
Speaker 1: read that the age range was fifteen to nineteen. So
Speaker 1: I guess the safest range would be sixteen to seventeen.
Speaker 1: Shoot for the middle, Shoot for the middle. She had
Speaker 1: all of her original parts, original carburetor, she hadn't had
Speaker 1: any surgeries or anything like that, kidneys, she had never
Speaker 1: given birth, and she had no scars remarks that they
Speaker 1: could see. I guess it's possible. I guess that there's
Speaker 1: a range in her face where she was beat so
Speaker 1: bad that they wouldn't have been able to see scars,
Speaker 1: but it wouldn't be discernible. Yeah, based on post damage. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the most literally the most distinct part of her actually
Speaker 1: was that her front two teeth were a slightly different
Speaker 1: color from the rest of her teeth. That was the
Speaker 1: only thing that they could provide to say, Hey, if
Speaker 1: you know a blonde girl who has slightly different colored
Speaker 1: teeth that's missing, we might have found her. That Actually,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, is not all that uncommon, though.
Speaker 1: Oh the different teeth colors, it's not mine, aren't a
Speaker 1: little different. Well, I mean, I know folks who have
Speaker 1: fallen down and hit their head and damage the Is
Speaker 1: it the nerves, Yes, the nerves and their teeth, and
Speaker 1: so that the tooth is slowly dying, and that a
Speaker 1: lot of times is what causes that discoloration. Is as
Speaker 1: the tooth dies. You know, you've seen people with black
Speaker 1: teeth because the tooth is dead. So at that point,
Speaker 1: you know, cosmetic oral surgery was not a thing. So
Speaker 1: it was actually pretty common. Well, I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: so uncommon that you would just have less white teeth
Speaker 1: and certaineries. Yeah, there's always range kind of depends to
Speaker 1: and how big the contrast really was. Yeah, and I
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to that question. That spent thirty
Speaker 1: five years, and nobody's nobody's stepped forward yet. You have
Speaker 1: not yet. So Princess had fought back against her attacker.
Speaker 1: There were visible signs of defense on her hands, but
Speaker 1: she was very badly beaten and r fingernails. Maybe I
Speaker 1: don't think so this is a really wasn't well. They
Speaker 1: did preserve a lot of her body parts though, so
Speaker 1: that they could test DNA. It's true, but I don't
Speaker 1: think that there was anything under her fingernails or anything
Speaker 1: that didn't scratch the guy or anything. I guess I'm
Speaker 1: being sexist here. It could have been a person. So,
Speaker 1: and we were kind of hinted at this before, but
Speaker 1: her body was probably was out there for a couple
Speaker 1: of days at least, maybe more like a week. I
Speaker 1: did see one place that said she had definitely been
Speaker 1: out there for a month, but I don't think it was.
Speaker 1: It was a really really warm, very very humid time
Speaker 1: of year July, New Jersey. Yeah, so there was some
Speaker 1: decomposition happening to her for sure, um, but they did
Speaker 1: think that it was probably just a couple of days
Speaker 1: that her body was out there, and I would suspect
Speaker 1: that there the graveyard was also able to help a
Speaker 1: little bit in that you know, if they had groundskeepers,
Speaker 1: they would have hit that kind of area in a
Speaker 1: whatever given amount of time. You know, I gotta be
Speaker 1: honest with you, I'm not I'm surprised that they found
Speaker 1: her as soon as they did because if you watch
Speaker 1: the footage that that is out there of you know
Speaker 1: that the guys trying to climb up that in bank
Speaker 1: and get out of there, it is super steep. I
Speaker 1: mean we're talking like a seventy five degree angle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean something a body rolls down and any kind
Speaker 1: of material from the area is stuck to it. It
Speaker 1: would be very easy to not see because who walks
Speaker 1: along the perimeter of that ravine looking down the whole time?
Speaker 1: That might be how she was found. It probably was,
Speaker 1: but I don't I don't think she did roll down
Speaker 1: the embankment because the skirt was laying on top of her.
Speaker 1: But if the body was dumped let's say ten or
Speaker 1: fifteen feet down, because I mean they they if you
Speaker 1: watch the footage of those guys crawling out of there
Speaker 1: with the body bag, I mean she was far enough
Speaker 1: down that they had to crawl, you know, three hands,
Speaker 1: one hand holding the strap and two ft in a
Speaker 1: hand pulling their selves up. I mean it's you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, she could have been dropped right out of
Speaker 1: the edge and it just slid down like it was
Speaker 1: a you know, earthen While that's true, that's true, Yeah,
Speaker 1: fair enough, Okay, But anyway, I doubt that she had
Speaker 1: been there a month now, that's that's successive. I think
Speaker 1: that the credits would have gotten to her. Absolutely, she
Speaker 1: and her her body would have decomposed. She was even
Speaker 1: there for a week. Really, the detective assigned to the
Speaker 1: case was actually the one to name her Princess Dough.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anywhere why he called her that. My
Speaker 1: understanding is that he picked that name because he wanted
Speaker 1: to give her something other than Jane Doe, because, you know,
Speaker 1: for some reason, felt really bad about this young girl
Speaker 1: being dead. Yeah, and I seem to remember him in
Speaker 1: an interview I watched saying, well, she she had to
Speaker 1: have been somebody's princess. You know, somebody's a little girl
Speaker 1: at one point who was a princess, and so somehow
Speaker 1: that's stuck in his head. Okay, I saw that stuff too,
Speaker 1: but I guess I just didn't. I didn't think no, no,
Speaker 1: And I'm amazed this guy like really really just has
Speaker 1: hung onto this case. It's amazing the lengths that he's gone.
Speaker 1: His name as Lieutenant Eric Krantz. He's now retired. This
Speaker 1: case really touched the small community in New Jersey. Uh.
Speaker 1: They gave her a proper burial, and a local who
Speaker 1: was just four at the time. His name is Travis Riggs.
Speaker 1: He even called a start a website called Princess Doe
Speaker 1: dot Org. I think the website is now defunct because
Speaker 1: I did try to reach out to Travis via the
Speaker 1: website and got one of those you know, Maillard Damon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it looks like he hasn't been doing anything for least
Speaker 1: three or four years, because I was accountable a movement here,
Speaker 1: and there's a movement. But I just thought it was
Speaker 1: incredible that somebody who was four at the time was
Speaker 1: so struck by this case that he would devote any
Speaker 1: amount of time, you know, spending. I got the feeling
Speaker 1: that this is probably one of those things. It's it's
Speaker 1: kind of like the oh gosh, I can't remember the
Speaker 1: case we were talking about the other day, where it's
Speaker 1: just everybody in town is always speculating about it. Our
Speaker 1: Indiana Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I think that's
Speaker 1: probably true since this was in the eighties. As we
Speaker 1: also kind of mentioned before, testing DNA testing particularly um,
Speaker 1: but just testing in general was not where it is
Speaker 1: today and probably will not be where you future people
Speaker 1: are listening to us in you know, you're laughing at
Speaker 1: us for our crew techniques. Yeah, you know, watching us
Speaker 1: on holophoners or whatever, laughing as we talked into microphones.
Speaker 1: Nobody uses those. But luckily, um, the investigators did have
Speaker 1: the foresight to preserve samples and not and not and
Speaker 1: preserve them in a way that they were actually preserved
Speaker 1: and they didn't get usable. This is the makings of
Speaker 1: a Forensic Files episode. I swear to god, if it
Speaker 1: had been solved, it would definitely have been featured on
Speaker 1: their Forensic Scientists in two thousand twelve were able to
Speaker 1: assess samples of both her hair and her teeth, and
Speaker 1: it allowed investigators to get a better picture of where
Speaker 1: Princess was from. Somewhere North or South America, Yeah, somewhere
Speaker 1: where blonde people are from. The sample of her hair was, um,
Speaker 1: it was pretty easy to analyze, and I I have
Speaker 1: to be honest, I pulled this like pretty much verbatim
Speaker 1: off of the Internet, because these people are smarter than me,
Speaker 1: and I can't I can't rewrite this. Um. So the
Speaker 1: hair indicated that she had lived at least seven to
Speaker 1: ten months in a Midwestern or northeastern state of the
Speaker 1: United States. UM, somewhat recently. I presume since I got
Speaker 1: it from her hair, it was within less eight months
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, probably because you know,
Speaker 1: hair grows long, but it falls out pretty pretty frequently.
Speaker 1: So UM and her the sample of her tooth indicated
Speaker 1: that she might be from Arizona, but it also was
Speaker 1: believed that she had spent a long period of time
Speaker 1: in Long Island, New York. And they figured all that
Speaker 1: out because of the the trace minerals and things like
Speaker 1: that that we're in it based on what you would
Speaker 1: find in the water. Water in Arizona is much different
Speaker 1: than water in New Jersey when you take it at
Speaker 1: you know, a base mineral count totally and the and yeah,
Speaker 1: the makeup of it is different. And because your body
Speaker 1: absorbs that, it's then you know, you can test for that,
Speaker 1: right exactly. This is a simplest version of how that worked. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So this was obviously really big news. And to the
Speaker 1: point where they even set up some mannequin, a mannequin
Speaker 1: with Princess Doe's clothes on it. It was pretty weird. Um.
Speaker 1: And the facial reconstructions of her are like really subpar,
Speaker 1: kind of weird. I mean they're not I mean, we've
Speaker 1: seen some very interesting reconstructions in our lives, but they're passable.
Speaker 1: But they're all kind of they don't look like real
Speaker 1: humans really at all. Makes you wonder if they if
Speaker 1: they were. They were having trouble really piecing together the
Speaker 1: pr well, and not all of it was done right away.
Speaker 1: Krantz kept trying to keep the case alive, uh, and
Speaker 1: so he would he would try and generate more interest
Speaker 1: in it, and so he would get the department to
Speaker 1: pay for a guy to come in and do a
Speaker 1: reconstructed drawing of her. But you know, that's well, and
Speaker 1: they've been updated ones and based on new technology and
Speaker 1: all that stuff. The reconstructions were they were, they would
Speaker 1: have been tough. I mean, she was very badly beaten,
Speaker 1: and but they did, you know, they were trying to
Speaker 1: keep the case alive. So they did this thing where
Speaker 1: they put her clothes on a mannequin and actually that
Speaker 1: did generate some leads. A woman who saw the images
Speaker 1: of the mannequin set up with this girl's clothes in
Speaker 1: a newspaper article said that she remembered seeing the girl
Speaker 1: wearing or a girl wearing the same clothing as Princess
Speaker 1: Dough on July and which have been two days before.
Speaker 1: But that was like two days before she was discovered.
Speaker 1: But she came forward months later. I thought it was
Speaker 1: like years later. Was it once? It was years later? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it was just I find that hard to believe.
Speaker 1: Kind of well, I mean, not only she remembered that
Speaker 1: far back the exact outfit, but also the exact date,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of you know, yeah, I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I agree, But also it is interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well maybe she's got a photographic memory. I don't know, maybe,
Speaker 1: the woman said. I mean, so the reason that she
Speaker 1: said that she remembered seeing this girl, I presume, you know,
Speaker 1: like I when I was little, like I would go
Speaker 1: shopping with my mom as a special thing. You know.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like we go shopping for clothes all the time.
Speaker 1: And so it's possible that no, so it's possible that
Speaker 1: this was a special occasion. Which is why the date stuck,
Speaker 1: and that that outfit is a pretty unique outfit, and
Speaker 1: if she was like, oh, I saw someone wearing something
Speaker 1: that looked a lot like that on this special day
Speaker 1: that we had, and we talked about how weird this
Speaker 1: woman was or this girl was dressed and what was
Speaker 1: she doing. I didn't think her those were all that weird. Actually, well,
Speaker 1: it could be just a conversation. What what she's saying,
Speaker 1: you know, is it could be they had a conversation
Speaker 1: about the outfit, good, bad or in different Yea, I
Speaker 1: have conversations about outfits all the time because some judges
Speaker 1: heck ya, wait, wait till you walk out of her room, Joe,
Speaker 1: she said some horrible things. You know, we really should
Speaker 1: go to the mall sometime. I don't. Um So. Actually,
Speaker 1: they were able also to trace the shirt and the
Speaker 1: skirt to a manufacturer in the Midwestern United States of America,
Speaker 1: but the brand labels were missing, which was well, I
Speaker 1: was just gonna say, which isn't all that suspicious because
Speaker 1: I sometimes cut labels out of my clothing because they're
Speaker 1: so scratchy, especially when you buy cheap clothes, they're super scratchy.
Speaker 1: And I suspect that if this girl has never been identified,
Speaker 1: she probably wasn't from a family of means that was
Speaker 1: providing for her, so she's probably buying cheap clothes. Yeah, people,
Speaker 1: Three or four people actually reported that they had purchased
Speaker 1: similar clothing at a Long Island store which is now
Speaker 1: closed obviously, but it's not clear if that was a
Speaker 1: chain store or if it was just like a one
Speaker 1: off boutique or something like that. So, um, you know,
Speaker 1: this is something I didn't see, and I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: ask you because I'm dumb, like that the clothes were
Speaker 1: they considered to actually be relatively new when her body
Speaker 1: was discovered. They weren't something that, say, could be a
Speaker 1: five year old dress, ensures that were lightning worn or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I suspect they were considered to
Speaker 1: be relatively new, given the number of people who were
Speaker 1: able to say that they purchased clothes similar to that
Speaker 1: within a fairly short time period. Okay, I just I
Speaker 1: know fashion is is very fickle and things come and
Speaker 1: go quite quickly, and so that's what makes me think
Speaker 1: that it probably was fairly recent. Pictures online of the
Speaker 1: clothes to where these same clothes that she was wearing,
Speaker 1: the red shirt, and yeah, they don't look too afraid. No,
Speaker 1: I think they were. And you know there's little things
Speaker 1: like there's a tiny like along the collar and the
Speaker 1: hem piping, there's a little bit of well, it's not
Speaker 1: you could call it piping. She's about to geek out.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, enough of a closer to tell you
Speaker 1: it's not actually piping. But there's um some very thin
Speaker 1: velveteen ribbon that they use as trim along the neck
Speaker 1: and the the waist and or the hem sorry of
Speaker 1: the shark. And you know that's the sort of stuff
Speaker 1: that goes kind of south pretty quick. It shows where quickly,
Speaker 1: um so I said. And they looked like they were
Speaker 1: in fine condition, not great, but you know, fine conditions.
Speaker 1: So I suspect it was they were fairly new. So
Speaker 1: we're almost two theories. But before we start talking about theories,
Speaker 1: we do need to talk about MTVS fear. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of fear of MTV. Yeah, I never saw it.
Speaker 1: This is from this is from Wikipedia. Um So, I'm
Speaker 1: admitting that I did almost no research on fear. You're
Speaker 1: not missing anything. And I watched this show. Yeah, oh
Speaker 1: like once or twice and it was so dumb. That's
Speaker 1: where they believe people like alone in a haunted house
Speaker 1: or something like that. Roup of people here, promoted as
Speaker 1: MTVS Fear is an American paranor I'm literally reading wikipedi
Speaker 1: right now, guys, I'm admitting it is an American paranormal
Speaker 1: reality to television series that originally aired from two thousand
Speaker 1: two or from two thousand to two thousand two on MTV.
Speaker 1: The program follows a group of five or more contestants
Speaker 1: being left at an allegedly haunted location and led them
Speaker 1: on a series of dares over two nights to explore
Speaker 1: and confirm whether or not the place was haunted. This
Speaker 1: this was a cheap knockoff of Survivors. What this was?
Speaker 1: This has been reality TV suddenly started becoming bigger than
Speaker 1: it had ever been because it was like Survivor, it
Speaker 1: was kind of small. And also it was like everybody's
Speaker 1: doing it and they all made the crappiest shows. So
Speaker 1: did anybody get killed at least? No, damn it. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, mannequins were thrown at people,
Speaker 1: but that's about it. Yeah, So stick your hand in
Speaker 1: a bucket of spiders. Maybe there was an episode in
Speaker 1: the first season that featured a totally fictionalized version of
Speaker 1: Princess Doe's story, which has added to a lot of
Speaker 1: confusion around the case. In MTVS Fear, Princess was portrayed
Speaker 1: as a victim of occult sacrifice. Wasn't there a head?
Speaker 1: Supposedly she was decapsuated, And yeah, totally, there's literally no reason,
Speaker 1: literally no reason to literally no reason to think that
Speaker 1: this is true. In Princess's case, she was not captated,
Speaker 1: she had her hands, and she was not a cult
Speaker 1: sacrifice could have been called sacrificed, not likely, no evidence
Speaker 1: to indicate, So stop it to stop, no stop. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So with all of that haven't been said, we're going
Speaker 1: to get into theories. But first we're gonna take a
Speaker 1: quick break. Can you imagine working under backbreaking conditions day
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Speaker 1: ingredients you'll love to eat and simple recipes you'll love
Speaker 1: to cook. And we're back the theories. In true devon fashion,
Speaker 1: we have two big headings and then subheadings and then
Speaker 1: stub headings too big. We need to talk about who
Speaker 1: Princess Dough might have been, and we also need to
Speaker 1: talk about who might have done this to Princess do Good.
Speaker 1: Questions off, So let's talk about who Princess Dough might
Speaker 1: have been. First. There are a couple interesting theories out there.
Speaker 1: I guess there's really only two names that have ever
Speaker 1: kind of stuck. And then a lot of sort of
Speaker 1: random speculation. Yeah, but the biggest one is Diane Janese die.
Speaker 1: For many years, actually, Princess Doe was thought to have
Speaker 1: been Diane. She was a missing teenager from San Jose, California.
Speaker 1: She never turn up. She never did no she she
Speaker 1: disappeared on July in se um. This theory was kind
Speaker 1: of propagated by several law enforcement. The word you're looking
Speaker 1: for is pushed. Where did they get the idea from? Though?
Speaker 1: I don't really know, you know, I guess it's because
Speaker 1: it's just an old case. There's a bunch of different
Speaker 1: ideas that have put forward, and but it's time or
Speaker 1: whatever the reasons they think these things have sort of
Speaker 1: gone away. You can't find them. I think you know.
Speaker 1: The other thing is people, if you find something that
Speaker 1: kind of fits, you can close two cases. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it's just better to you know, willfully be ignorant about
Speaker 1: the whole situation. Well in a way for the family,
Speaker 1: it's it's a method too though incorrect give the family closure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't think that's fair. I don't
Speaker 1: think that really does anybody any favors. But I don't know. Um,
Speaker 1: but there were actually some law enforcement officials in New
Speaker 1: Jersey who actually even how how to press conference that
Speaker 1: they officially identified so yeah, as Dane Die, Lieutenant Krantz. Remember, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he maintained the Diane Die was not a good candidate
Speaker 1: for Princess Doe as an identity. He just didn't think
Speaker 1: they fit, which is fair. They didn't really look too
Speaker 1: too much alike, and um, he just overall just didn't
Speaker 1: agree and you know, and the yeah, they just he
Speaker 1: just didn't really agree with that assessment. So he actually
Speaker 1: convinced Diane's family and the investigators in California who were
Speaker 1: searching for Diane to give some samples of DNA to
Speaker 1: be compared. So in two thousand three, Princess Doe's DNA
Speaker 1: was compared with the DNA sample from Diane's mother, Patricia DNA, like,
Speaker 1: so maternal DNA which will conclusively say, yes, this DNA
Speaker 1: came from you know, is the child of this person
Speaker 1: or not? And um, Patricia was ruled out as the
Speaker 1: mother of Princess Dough. So Diane die too bad for
Speaker 1: the family. I guess it would have been kind of
Speaker 1: nice in a way, you know, it would have. But also,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I'm always want to think like
Speaker 1: that just brings hope that maybe, I mean, maybe Diane
Speaker 1: is still alive out there somewhere. Maybe she'd be you know,
Speaker 1: in her for change her name to Lori Erica Rough
Speaker 1: and she's doing well, yeah, doing great, Yeah, really great.
Speaker 1: So not that, but that's one of the biggest theories
Speaker 1: you'll see. And actually there are still people on the
Speaker 1: internet who say, oh, you know, Princess Doe is Diane die,
Speaker 1: but they've never read the research. Apparently, well, it's actually
Speaker 1: not completely impossible. I mean, if one when Diane was born,
Speaker 1: if she was actually accidentally switched with another baby, then
Speaker 1: obviously it would be a it would be a startling
Speaker 1: set of coincidences. But it is technically I can wrap
Speaker 1: my head around it. You can win the lottery. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: somebody put this on my script, wasn't me you? Joe
Speaker 1: theorem two point five that Princess Doe was actually Patricia Vaughan. Um,
Speaker 1: this is similar to Diane Die. And then people have
Speaker 1: put it out there because well it the one looks
Speaker 1: well that looks good about it is. She disappeared two
Speaker 1: months before Princess Doe turned up. She went missing from
Speaker 1: West Virginia, so kind of I think she was originally
Speaker 1: like raised Connecticut, but was actually in West New England
Speaker 1: sort of. I mean, but you know, closer than Oregon is,
Speaker 1: and she was she was Do you remember how old
Speaker 1: she was too? I don't. I don't remember. She was
Speaker 1: in the age. I think she was twenty, so she
Speaker 1: was on the upper end of the age bracket. That
Speaker 1: was some reason. I'm taking nineteen nineteen or twenty still
Speaker 1: the upper end of the age bracket. And she wasn't
Speaker 1: reported missing until ninete five. That's kind of interesting, baffling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree. And now now there's actually a Facebook page
Speaker 1: for Patricia. Yeah, so they wait thirteen years. Now they're
Speaker 1: really into it on facebook page. Yeah. Um, and you know,
Speaker 1: I guess, fine, why not. You know, she was blonde
Speaker 1: and technically kind of in the age range. But well,
Speaker 1: and if you look at photographs, there's a couple of
Speaker 1: photos that were out there. She looks the shape of
Speaker 1: her face and everything. Well. The thing about the great
Speaker 1: thing about Princess though, is there's so many different sketches
Speaker 1: and reconstructions that you know, you can find one that
Speaker 1: looks like just about anybody. That's true. Yeah, I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: meshed up with a lot of people. Yeah, but um,
Speaker 1: one of the big problems is her height. Patricia was
Speaker 1: like five right, yeah, there is that. Yeah. She also
Speaker 1: had um in her name. I don't remember which one
Speaker 1: it is, Charlie project posting maybe Um she had a
Speaker 1: broken arm, and she'd had her tonsils out and her
Speaker 1: wisdom teeth were impacted, and Princess Do didn't have any
Speaker 1: of those things. So, um, I don't think it's good
Speaker 1: match at all. No, probably not. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I've actually I've seen this not just on the Internet
Speaker 1: but in news accounts. Although you know, of course I've
Speaker 1: seen on news accounts, journalism whatever. It's the same as
Speaker 1: the Internet, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's those
Speaker 1: are the only two named people that we really added.
Speaker 1: One theory is that Princess Dough is a runaway or
Speaker 1: a prostitute. Was The theory goes predictably that princess ran away.
Speaker 1: Um maybe she was Vaughan. Maybe she ran away, and
Speaker 1: then she was a well known in Ocean City, Maryland,
Speaker 1: either as being a runaway or as a prostitute, or
Speaker 1: perhaps both, um um. And this is another sory that
Speaker 1: I just yeah, where the hell it came from. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So the idea that she was a well known prostitute
Speaker 1: at a local truck stop, I guess. And there's a
Speaker 1: big problem with this, and that is that not a
Speaker 1: single person came forward and said they recognized her. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, I'll go ahead and say that if
Speaker 1: she was indeed underaged, I don't know a single person
Speaker 1: who would be like, oh, yeah, I know that prostitute
Speaker 1: that I've been sleeping with. No, you don't say that.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you just don't. I mean, even if you're
Speaker 1: a really good person and you really you want to help, Well,
Speaker 1: that's such a thing as like, you know, writing a
Speaker 1: little note and dropping it in the mail. That's my thought.
Speaker 1: There's such a thing as an anonymous phone call from
Speaker 1: a pay phone. So that's why I think that probably
Speaker 1: she was not a prostitute somehow, But somehow I've been
Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of research about girls that
Speaker 1: are in this situation, you know, of of falling into
Speaker 1: prostitution as a means to survive, and there's a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of different ways to cope. Some get on drugs
Speaker 1: and they become very well known because they're they're just
Speaker 1: trying so hard all the time, because they're not only
Speaker 1: trying to support themselves but a habit. There are others
Speaker 1: who are very standoffish. They they're clean, but they go
Speaker 1: they meet a john, they do what they gotta do,
Speaker 1: and then they take off and they're just moving around
Speaker 1: and they're not staying in the same place. And those girls,
Speaker 1: the second one I'm mentioning, those are the ones that
Speaker 1: it's easiest for them to disappear and nobody knows because
Speaker 1: they're not in one place long enough. Like this whole
Speaker 1: she was at particular truck stop, a whatever like that
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense, but these girls bounced around. You meet
Speaker 1: a guy, you make a couple of bucks off him,
Speaker 1: you talk him into giving you a ride to the
Speaker 1: next major truck stop and then you hop out and
Speaker 1: he goes his way and you go your way, and
Speaker 1: these girls disappear. And there's a lot of freaking scuzz
Speaker 1: balls in those truck stops, especially back in the a
Speaker 1: that was that was a supermarket for killers. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and and also she was found that set tery, which
Speaker 1: is actually on a on a highway. I mean it's
Speaker 1: not a super highway everything, but it's not a back
Speaker 1: road by any means. And of course, you know it's
Speaker 1: an obvious place to go pull off the dead of
Speaker 1: night is to a cemetery. Just go off to the
Speaker 1: edge there and do do you're killing it and you know,
Speaker 1: push the body in the ravine and off you go.
Speaker 1: We don't even we don't even know that she was
Speaker 1: killed there. I mean, it's it's very possible that she
Speaker 1: was killed someplace else and then just jumped. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: the person whoever it is, man or woman or beast,
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be, puts her there, laser skirt
Speaker 1: over and gives her a shove downhill and walks back
Speaker 1: out and takes off, And nobody's going to be the wiser. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I think it is possible that
Speaker 1: maybe she was a runaway prostitute to support herself, but
Speaker 1: I don't think it's possible. I don't think it's likely
Speaker 1: that she was like a regular that everybody knew her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I will not agree with that she was a known
Speaker 1: worker at that area. I think we're probably gonna get
Speaker 1: in trouble because I think the proper term as sex worker,
Speaker 1: we've got a little flack. So sorry about the sex
Speaker 1: worker doesn't really cover because sex worker can mean a
Speaker 1: lot of things. Well that's true, you know, but uh,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how many how many prostitutes actually
Speaker 1: get into drugs and that kind of thing. Apparently Princess
Speaker 1: Do did not have any drugs in her system. She
Speaker 1: did not, And so I'm sure that there probably are
Speaker 1: prostitutes who don't do drugs. I don't know. I guess, yes,
Speaker 1: of course there are. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay, no, not all.
Speaker 1: There's a theory out there that she worked at a
Speaker 1: local camp, like a Friday thirteens kind of camp, exactly camp. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure this one came from Fear, because in Fear,
Speaker 1: the character that was portrayed as Princess Dough was um
Speaker 1: the fictionalized version of her. She was found on the
Speaker 1: grounds of Camp spirit Lake, which is a fictionalized version
Speaker 1: of no Be Bosco name. I think it's probably Indian,
Speaker 1: you think so, I do, Okay, because it the way
Speaker 1: it's written, in the way I've seen it written, I
Speaker 1: always assumed somebody made it up. Oh yeah, No, I
Speaker 1: think like, we're going to make a camp here for kids,
Speaker 1: and let's make a fun name. Let's call it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wonder what that you know, Noby so don't be
Speaker 1: whoever Bosco is? Yeah, Boscoe, don't be Bosco. Coltrane could
Speaker 1: be got to feel in this a joke in there?
Speaker 1: I do I really think that there is. I'm sorry
Speaker 1: this is very tangentle, but we were in Vegas and
Speaker 1: we were at the Excalibur, and there's a there's an
Speaker 1: Italian restaurant there called Bubba Dabuco and that's what this
Speaker 1: reminds me. Anyway, So Camp No By Bosco is actually
Speaker 1: a real camp in Hardwick Township in New Jersey, which
Speaker 1: is close to where Princess Doe was found. But if
Speaker 1: she had been at that camp, don't you think that
Speaker 1: somebody would have said, Hey, it's weird this this person
Speaker 1: in the camp is gone. Yes, well, actually that camp.
Speaker 1: The reason that that camp is notable is because it
Speaker 1: was actually the filming location for Friday and even more crazy,
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Krantz. You remember Lieutenant Krantz. He was actually in
Speaker 1: Friday thirteen that the film at that camp, two years
Speaker 1: before they found Princess. Does I heard that? Now? What
Speaker 1: did he did? He play a corpse or or teenager?
Speaker 1: I think he was an extra if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: he was somewhere in the background. He wasn't now a
Speaker 1: speaking part. It was probably just one of the policemen
Speaker 1: that shows up at the end the cart away the bodies, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and and he ugled Jamie Lee Curtis and
Speaker 1: then he left do that. No, she wasn't in that movie.
Speaker 1: That was how the wheen you're thinking of it was like,
Speaker 1: who was that girl? She had big hair? It was
Speaker 1: an eighties movie. It's I get they're all so silly anymore.
Speaker 1: I get mixed up. I just know it's on Freddy Krueger.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm pretty sure that that is where that
Speaker 1: came from. I don't think that there's any credit. And
Speaker 1: also I agree that if a camp counselor or somebody
Speaker 1: who was attending a camp had disappeared, the people who
Speaker 1: are running the camp would have been pretty on it. Hey, well,
Speaker 1: unless there's like this sole thing where there's a camp
Speaker 1: and then you know, the whole vacation is over and
Speaker 1: everybody leaves, how you wouldn't think to be leaving as
Speaker 1: early as mid July. Yeah, I don't think so, but
Speaker 1: but I mean camps do run in cycles, you know,
Speaker 1: two three, four week cycles. But even if that were
Speaker 1: the case, as much coverage as this story, somebody would
Speaker 1: have recognized those clothes. Yes, somebody's like it should have.
Speaker 1: Somebody should have been keyed in just to recognize something.
Speaker 1: They totally would. So that's all the theories for who
Speaker 1: this person, Princess Do might have been. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: who might have done this to Princess Do. Nancy Reagan,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. No, there's a theory out there,
Speaker 1: and I think this is we're want to do like
Speaker 1: most to least credible. I guess at least the most.
Speaker 1: You want to at least the most we can at
Speaker 1: least the most. The least credible theory I've ever heard
Speaker 1: I literally titled this the dumbest theory is that Princess
Speaker 1: Dough was killed by the Blairs by by a Blair's
Speaker 1: town police officer, which is why the case was never solved.
Speaker 1: That's so dumb, is it, though? Yeah, you know that
Speaker 1: if you're like that, you're the investigating officer, and this
Speaker 1: this is one particular guy that wanders by every month,
Speaker 1: so it says, hey, you know when you're moving on
Speaker 1: Princess Dough and awesome. Great, I mean that's really too bad. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I was waiting for you say hi, five. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: It's it's not the craziest thing because listen, we have
Speaker 1: read about and had people talk to us about massive
Speaker 1: instances of police involvement and corruption for things like this.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, yes, it's not unheard of, but there's
Speaker 1: no evidence and there's no evidence. And the deep dedication
Speaker 1: that um Lieutenant Krantz has shown to this case, I
Speaker 1: mean he's been investigating it actively, even in retirement obviously,
Speaker 1: lieutenant right, but he would have I think he would
Speaker 1: have found something out if there was something to be
Speaker 1: found out. And I've done supporting this is fun. It's
Speaker 1: just the next amis theory is Henry Lee Lucas. You
Speaker 1: guys know Henry Lee Lucas. Yeah, Henry Le Lucas is
Speaker 1: the serial killer who claims to have murdered more than
Speaker 1: three thousands of people. So of course he is a suspect.
Speaker 1: I don't see any similarities with his actual confirmed murders
Speaker 1: and this murder. I mean, yeah, that's problem with that, guys.
Speaker 1: You really can't take him as his word. Unfortunately. We
Speaker 1: just talked about this recently. Yeah, I can't do it. Uh.
Speaker 1: The next most credible theory is Joel Rifkin. He's also
Speaker 1: a serial an American serial killer, but I can't remember.
Speaker 1: I know he's killed a bunch, but how many did
Speaker 1: he kill? I don't remember. Okay, he's believed to have
Speaker 1: killed up to seventy Yeah, prefect, Yeah, but it would
Speaker 1: have been really early. His first official murder was in
Speaker 1: a nineteen eighty nine And he also had a thing
Speaker 1: for going for prostitutes in the New York area. So
Speaker 1: and the and his his mode. He did a lot
Speaker 1: of weird cutting of paint. Isn't he the one who
Speaker 1: did like the weird cutting situation with clothes? He well,
Speaker 1: he would he would take off like the first girl,
Speaker 1: he took off her finger, her fingertips and her teeth,
Speaker 1: and like he was doing some semi dismembering, like he
Speaker 1: wasn't just a guy who just dumped the body hole
Speaker 1: and just I mean, I can see the argument for escalation.
Speaker 1: You know that he just accidentally beat this one girl
Speaker 1: and then didn't do anything. But I don't wait when
Speaker 1: was when was princess found? And he? But I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't don't think it was him. I don't think
Speaker 1: really always a worried, we were like, oh, but it
Speaker 1: was escalation because it just seems like too easy of
Speaker 1: a way to paint the guy into the box, paint
Speaker 1: the box around the guy, especially since we have a
Speaker 1: better suspect. So I think the most plausible suspect is
Speaker 1: Arthur and maybe Donna kin Law. Donna Kinlaw was arrested
Speaker 1: in California for attempting to commit welfare fraud by using
Speaker 1: the name Elena, which was traced to a Long Island
Speaker 1: native who was actually involved in a prostitution ring that
Speaker 1: her husband, Arthur kin Law, was running. Donna gave details
Speaker 1: about two other murders that she said Arthur had committed.
Speaker 1: Both were unidentified females, and both remain an unidentified from Princess.
Speaker 1: This is aside from Princess. It's also it's aside from
Speaker 1: Elena as well. Elena had been murdered. Why did okay,
Speaker 1: why did Donna like so because she had been murdered,
Speaker 1: then she just she was on the hook for the murder.
Speaker 1: So that's why she implicated. No, she was on the
Speaker 1: hook for welfare, for frau fraud. Yeah, and so she
Speaker 1: thought she was getting good with the cops by turning
Speaker 1: her husband in that. You know, Honestly, I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I don't know her motivations. I'm not a criminal psychologist,
Speaker 1: so I don't know why she decided to just talk
Speaker 1: about this. Some people are just talkers. She also, I think,
Speaker 1: was trying to paint herself as the just victim. She
Speaker 1: didn't she was being forced to do these things, and
Speaker 1: I think she felt she was trying to paint herself
Speaker 1: as she felt guilty. I don't know if she did
Speaker 1: or not, But now I seem to remember reading something
Speaker 1: about the fact that you know, Don was not Don Arthur,
Speaker 1: sorry that Arthur was you know, he was controlling and abusive.
Speaker 1: That's what Donna said when she was arrested, and so,
Speaker 1: of course it was not her, It was him the
Speaker 1: whole time to answer Joe's question, and she was she
Speaker 1: just she couldn't do anything about it or she'd get
Speaker 1: the well she did. She did say, um, at least
Speaker 1: once that he literally held like a gun to her
Speaker 1: head and said you have to do this. I don't
Speaker 1: remember what that was. I don't think it was a
Speaker 1: murder thing. I think it was something else, but um,
Speaker 1: she said that he threatened her. And so after Arthur
Speaker 1: went to trial and faced the death penalty for the
Speaker 1: original three murders, Donna gave further know the original three murders,
Speaker 1: the two unidentified women and Elena o Um. Donna gave
Speaker 1: further information that Arthur had killed one other female, a
Speaker 1: young prostitute, in a graveyard in early two. There's really
Speaker 1: no corroborating evidence for this. It sounds like Donna's story
Speaker 1: may have changed a few times. There's police can't substantiate it,
Speaker 1: Donna said. In one instance, Donna said that Arthur had
Speaker 1: brought a young woman who was matched the description and
Speaker 1: wearing similar clothes home and then left and then came
Speaker 1: back without her In another instance, Donna said, actually she
Speaker 1: had gone to the graveyard with them, and then Arthur
Speaker 1: had said, um, and you know she had watched him.
Speaker 1: She had been a witness. And then Arthur said, if
Speaker 1: you tell anyone, I'll do this to you. So her
Speaker 1: story changed a couple of shifts. But I'm not I
Speaker 1: guess I'm don't know why she would say that he
Speaker 1: murdered her if he didn't, unless it was to try
Speaker 1: to solidify the death penalty so she never had to see.
Speaker 1: I think that what she was trying to do is
Speaker 1: shovel it on thick and deep so that she looked
Speaker 1: like the innocent bystandard, like we were just talking about,
Speaker 1: and as you guys just kind of hinted at so
Speaker 1: that he had that he just there was no way
Speaker 1: he was going to get out of it so that
Speaker 1: he couldn't come after her, whether he truly was doing
Speaker 1: the things she said he was or not, or if
Speaker 1: she just said, hey, Patsy thinks a lot. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of guys who are you know, pamps and run
Speaker 1: prostitution rings, who aren't necessarily murderers, but who still are
Speaker 1: violent kind of people. Really, you know, I can see
Speaker 1: why she might want to get away from him and
Speaker 1: see him looked up for a long time. But as
Speaker 1: far as that, the whole problem with this is, this
Speaker 1: case actually did get a fair amount of publicity, and
Speaker 1: so it's entirely possible that you know, her being from
Speaker 1: that that kind of area in the geographic area not
Speaker 1: far from New Jersey, heard all about it, you know,
Speaker 1: I heard about the circumstances of this body being found
Speaker 1: in Braveyard, New Jersey, and so yeah, so even though
Speaker 1: Arthur may well have committed some murders, well, I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess the other thing is is that like finding
Speaker 1: out who did that to her doesn't really bring us
Speaker 1: any closer to finding out who will. He might he
Speaker 1: might have some clues as to her identity if you
Speaker 1: find out who it is and ring the ring the
Speaker 1: truth out of him, you might. But if it was
Speaker 1: I mean, but if it was Arthur, he said he'd
Speaker 1: has picked up a random prostitute. I mean, he Well,
Speaker 1: I find it. I find it interesting though that whoever
Speaker 1: did kill princess, I find it really thought it was
Speaker 1: important to obliterator face and but just around the eyes
Speaker 1: that her mouth was totally I don't I disagree, I
Speaker 1: don't know that this is necessarily a scenario where it
Speaker 1: was done in such a way to make her unidentifiable,
Speaker 1: because I mean, everybody at that point, everybody knows about fingerprints.
Speaker 1: If you really want to take her off the map,
Speaker 1: you would do like what's his name and started cutting
Speaker 1: off the hands and the fingertips. But supposing you knew her,
Speaker 1: and you knew that she had never been arrested her fingerprinted.
Speaker 1: But okay with that, that that implies that you know
Speaker 1: her well enough to know that. I mean, this could
Speaker 1: be There's nothing saying that the murderer didn't know her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there's there's I mean, it could very well have
Speaker 1: been just I mean, we've talked about these cases for
Speaker 1: just a case of rage and the guy literally just
Speaker 1: beats her and beats her and beats her past the
Speaker 1: point of death. He is just Yeah, I recognize what
Speaker 1: you're saying. Yeah, but I'm just saying that it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that was deliberately for two or to impede identification.
Speaker 1: And I'm saying I don't, I don't. I don't think
Speaker 1: that it necessarily was. I mean, the level that her face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if I were the police, I would be thinking
Speaker 1: about it the Yeah, I'd be thinking about that particular things.
Speaker 1: So she's not been arrested, and yet somebody would have
Speaker 1: known her by her by her face. So I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not much, but it's possible that if
Speaker 1: she was if she was in the industry, she may
Speaker 1: not have been in the industry for a long period
Speaker 1: of time. And there are I think she wasn't a prostitute. No,
Speaker 1: but I'm not either, But I'm saying if if that's
Speaker 1: the scenario, she may have been in it a short
Speaker 1: enough of time or good enough at avoiding being caught
Speaker 1: that she wasn't in the system, because there are people
Speaker 1: who go for years without getting picked up by the
Speaker 1: We also might not have been a prostitute. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: may have been some poor innocent bystander who got a
Speaker 1: ride from the wrong could be a hitchhiker psycho. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it could have been, like you know, that would
Speaker 1: be one reason to like, say, if you picked her
Speaker 1: up at a truck stop or somewhere and you're a
Speaker 1: little worried that somebody's going to recognize her in the papers,
Speaker 1: you know, and then maybe put two and two together.
Speaker 1: They they saw her climbing into your brown buik with you, well,
Speaker 1: just wipe her face out. And although there were really
Speaker 1: distinctive clothes, so I don't know why you would leave
Speaker 1: her clothes and take her clothes with that remark, that's
Speaker 1: a good point to Clearly, it didn't really matter that
Speaker 1: much because nobody has come forward and said, yeah, I
Speaker 1: recognize those clothes. Yeah, all right, Well, um that's all
Speaker 1: I have. Do you guys have any additional theories? Uh?
Speaker 1: Not really. All I would say for the clothes too,
Speaker 1: is that who knows. I mean the skirt, she might
Speaker 1: not even have ever worn that skirt. I mean somebody
Speaker 1: could have out at the good Will and draped it
Speaker 1: over her body. I mean somebody could have pulled her
Speaker 1: pants and her panties offered and throwing them away somewhere else.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it could have been it could
Speaker 1: be a tall Red Herring. Harry. Oh sorry, this one's
Speaker 1: got more in terms of so, um, yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: super thrilled about the resolution to this case, but we
Speaker 1: cover un self mysteries. Somebody will listen to this podcast,
Speaker 1: it will jar their memory and there will be some
Speaker 1: resolution here. Uh. So we're gonna put some links as
Speaker 1: usual on our website that you can find there um,
Speaker 1: where you can also stream the episode if you want.
Speaker 1: I think you can download the episode from the website
Speaker 1: as well. If you're wondering if we've covered a case,
Speaker 1: there's a list of episodes there um. You can also
Speaker 1: find links to our merch The website is Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. We're on social media of course. Uh.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook. We've got a group
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Speaker 1: if you want to get a hold of us, the
Speaker 1: very best way to do that is to send us
Speaker 1: an email. We despite the thousands of emails we get
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Speaker 1: We got a lot of we we respond to every
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Speaker 1: we get, including spam sometimes on accidents. So there you go.
Speaker 1: So you can send us an email at Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: Podcast at gmail dot com. And I think that's all
Speaker 1: the business we have. Um, did you give that? Just
Speaker 1: phone number yeah. Um. Anyway, Okay, I guess that's all
Speaker 1: I have for this week, So we're just gonna depressingly
Speaker 1: get out of here, I suppose so. To everybody, we'll
Speaker 1: see you in a week al right, guys, talk to
Speaker 1: you next week when Devin's voice is better. Yeah,