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Speaker 1: All right, guys, welcome back. I have a new friend

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Speaker 1: here with me today where today is exciting and I

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Speaker 1: like these kind of days because I get to be

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Speaker 1: more of a student and get to learn and ask

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Speaker 1: questions and just learn things. So we have another expert,

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Speaker 1: another licensed therapist on Caitlin Olsen. Hello, Hi, expert. Feels weird,

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Speaker 1: but okay, yeah, I'll do that. Does that feel weird? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is like a whole probably other podcast at the right,

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Speaker 1: but this idea of like what does it mean to

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Speaker 1: be an expert? And are we always learning? Aren't we

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Speaker 1: all students all the time? But now I'll take it's

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Speaker 1: it's cool, Yeah, Hi, I'll take it. What I'm saying

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Speaker 1: is she knows what she's talking about when it comes

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Speaker 1: to what we're about to talk about. And I talked

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Speaker 1: about this all the time, so it should be a

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Speaker 1: whole episode. I don't know if I have done a

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Speaker 1: whole episode on this where we have to be very

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Speaker 1: careful where we're getting our information, especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to mental health, because we can learn, like this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we can learn anything. But even just like listening to

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Speaker 1: a podcast and learning something doesn't make you an expert

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Speaker 1: in it. In forty minutes or however long this podcast is.

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Speaker 1: So so we have to be careful we get our information,

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Speaker 1: and we have to be careful with what we do

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Speaker 1: with our information and how we use it. With all

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Speaker 1: of that being said, today I'm excited because we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about something that I know all the listeners

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Speaker 1: are most of the listeners are gonna really find value

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Speaker 1: in and and lean into. And it's something that I

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Speaker 1: think that you guys usually message and and talk to

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Speaker 1: me a lot about. Liking is when we do more

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Speaker 1: episodes around like trauma or attachment and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: So what is betrayal trauma? And I guess give us

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Speaker 1: a small nutshell and then we're going to just dive

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Speaker 1: into it very deeply. Yeah. So, betrayal trauma is a

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Speaker 1: term that was coined by Jennifer Fried in the mid nineties,

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Speaker 1: and her first published work was in but she used

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Speaker 1: this term to describe what happens when an individual is

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Speaker 1: betrayed by this system on which that individual depends. And

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Speaker 1: the system might be as small as a family of

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Speaker 1: origin or parents right like just two people or one

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Speaker 1: person who represents the family unit, or might be really

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Speaker 1: really big, like a whole government or a big powerful

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Speaker 1: institution or organization. So this can be really it can

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Speaker 1: be very like intense close to you, or it can

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Speaker 1: be this larger thing that's in in both of them.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like government power versus like my mom.

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Speaker 1: Like you can see them in a bunch of different ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So why is it important for us to have a

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Speaker 1: name for this and to to actually define this? There's

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Speaker 1: so much should be said for naming and putting words

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Speaker 1: to and wrapping language around experience. Right. I think you

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Speaker 1: probably as a fellow therapist, like we really understand how

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Speaker 1: powerful it can be to be able to verbalize and experience. Right.

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Speaker 1: So betrayal trauma it gives that specificity that the general

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Speaker 1: idea of trauma just can't. And trauma has become kind

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Speaker 1: of co opted and hijacked, and you know, people say

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Speaker 1: they're traumatized by a bad manicure, like you know, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's a whole other thing that I'm trying. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we can talk of that too. It's like, not everything

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Speaker 1: is trauma, right, and what does it really mean to

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Speaker 1: claim traumatization? And so betrayal trauma I think kind of

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Speaker 1: reclaims the true meaning of trauma. But then it also

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Speaker 1: really makes concrete what can often feel very abstract. So

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Speaker 1: one really clear, I think easy to understand example of

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Speaker 1: betrayal trauma is abuse, you know, interpersonal violence, emotional, sexual, physical,

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Speaker 1: mental abuse. If we look at physical abuse, you know,

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Speaker 1: as a specific example, it's easy for most people to

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Speaker 1: understand that that's a betrayal, like that's that's a violation

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Speaker 1: of some sort of contract, whether I've spoken or own

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Speaker 1: spoken between two people. Um, when it gets too emotional

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Speaker 1: or when it gets to mental abuse, it's really harder

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Speaker 1: because it's more abstract and it's harder to quote unquote prove,

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Speaker 1: you know. And that's again where why are we asking

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Speaker 1: victims to prove the abuse? Right? But but if if

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Speaker 1: we need to prove it, then it's harder and it

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Speaker 1: is more abstract. Again, So to have this term betrayal

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Speaker 1: trauma to really encompass all these different forms of abuse

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Speaker 1: can be really beneficial. And that's where my work really started.

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Speaker 1: You know, I learned about betrayal trauma in the context

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Speaker 1: of infidelity sexual betrayal in a marriage, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until a few years into that work and I got

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Speaker 1: more and more curious about this trauma lens, you know,

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Speaker 1: and focusing through this specific perspective that I did some

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Speaker 1: research and I started reading up on Jennifer Fried who

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Speaker 1: can I swear? She is like she is so, you know,

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Speaker 1: an academic, and she's like, but she is such a badass.

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Speaker 1: She that's like a whole another hour. I could just

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Speaker 1: tell her story, right, but I'll let you do some

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Speaker 1: of your own reading and I'll give you a link

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Speaker 1: so you can put in the show notes. So that's

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Speaker 1: a really cool article that just came out earlier this

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Speaker 1: year about her. When I started reading about her, I

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Speaker 1: realized that she coined the term to her research, and

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Speaker 1: again it was about the more macro systemic level, so interpersonal,

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Speaker 1: you know, someone cheated on their partner or cheated on

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Speaker 1: their spouse is kind of like again several steps down

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Speaker 1: the path of where the real trauma really started. There's

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Speaker 1: a million questions that are floating in my head. But

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Speaker 1: I want to go backwards for a second, because when

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Speaker 1: you were talking about the difference between like physical and

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Speaker 1: mental abuse, I just think it's it's worth just taking

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Speaker 1: a second to say this. I don't even know how

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Speaker 1: this is gonna come out, but it is so frustrating

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Speaker 1: to me, and I'm sure you see it with clients,

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Speaker 1: but also like just in life, it is just so

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Speaker 1: frustrating that somebody hit to you, pushes you down a

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Speaker 1: flight of steps or stairs. It's like, yes, that is

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Speaker 1: not okay, that was abuse, that should not happen. You

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Speaker 1: didn't deserve that. They're these more like covert emotional psychological

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Speaker 1: wounds that people are experiencing. There is that essence of

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Speaker 1: like feeling like you have to prove it. And if

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Speaker 1: there's an essence of feeling like you have to prove

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Speaker 1: your abuse, it almost just makes you feel like then

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Speaker 1: it must not be real, and it is so frustrating.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll keep this part in there,

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Speaker 1: but I just want to say it. I had an

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Speaker 1: experience with what It wasn't even my experience. My friend

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Speaker 1: had experience with a boss who was very narcissistic, had

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Speaker 1: a lot of narcissistic qualities, and it was so frustrating

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Speaker 1: because when she told her story and she was spoke

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Speaker 1: about what happened, she was like shut down and like threatened.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, but if he pushed you down

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Speaker 1: a flight of stairs and you had a bruise on

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Speaker 1: your face or can bone, he would be in trouble.

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Speaker 1: But because there's no physical wound, then you kind of

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Speaker 1: have to shut your mouth like it's so frustrating, and

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Speaker 1: the inside of that of like what that does to

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Speaker 1: somebody who has to almost like it's you have to

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Speaker 1: suck it up and deal with it, or it's like

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Speaker 1: I'm not safe, like the world isn't Like, yes, the

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Speaker 1: world won't protect me, I can't find protection. Yes, you're

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Speaker 1: taking it to such a good point that helps quote

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Speaker 1: unquote Again I don't like that we kind of have

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Speaker 1: to do this but legitimize these forms of trauma. And

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Speaker 1: again these like general forms of betrayal trauma because when

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Speaker 1: we are you know, a person like you said inside

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Speaker 1: what it does to them when the belief is formed

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Speaker 1: and solid that I'm not safe for the world isn't safe.

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Speaker 1: That is constant trauma, right, and then every day I'm

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Speaker 1: not safe, every day the world isn't safe. And then

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Speaker 1: we can get into looking at what that does in

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Speaker 1: terms of other symptoms like constant anxiety, intrusive thinking, flashbacks,

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Speaker 1: and then we get to a PTSD diagnosis, right, so

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Speaker 1: we can legitimize it through again the medical lens of

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Speaker 1: d p A and the d C and the d

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Speaker 1: s M. But it is really frustrating how much work

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Speaker 1: it takes. And I'm sure you've had this happened. Allot'll

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Speaker 1: sit with clients, you know, especially women, because women tend

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Speaker 1: to have less power and heterosexual relationships, and they'll say like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, they also say, I feel petty, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm just complaining. I feel like this is not

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Speaker 1: that big a deal. It could be worse, right, And

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Speaker 1: I just watched a beautiful example of this in the

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Speaker 1: show made on Netflix. If you haven't watched that yet,

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Speaker 1: this this series does such It's just a brutal, honest

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Speaker 1: look and it is hopeful too. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: like all hard to watch. It's really cool. And it's

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Speaker 1: based on the true story of a woman being psychologically

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Speaker 1: tormented by her partner and trapped and controlled, and there

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Speaker 1: are elements of physicality, but he never put his hands

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Speaker 1: on her or their child. So she really was like,

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Speaker 1: this isn't real abuse. She really said that. She's like

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Speaker 1: real people who are are people who are being really

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Speaker 1: abused need that spot in the domestic violence shelter, right,

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Speaker 1: or they need this support. I don't need it because

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Speaker 1: he didn't like, he didn't ever hurt me, and it

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Speaker 1: took a lot of education, you know, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of time for her to really see it that way.

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Speaker 1: And that's the kind of thing that I sit with

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Speaker 1: with women all the time. And so betrayal trauma, I

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Speaker 1: think physical abuse certainly, like you said, if it's visible,

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Speaker 1: then it's easier. And I think that's a little bit biological,

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Speaker 1: like you know, we're visual beings, but it's certainly cultural

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Speaker 1: training too. But then also sexual betrayal, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I tend to work with a slice of the population

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Speaker 1: that really values marriage, really values family, and feels connected

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Speaker 1: to their like spiritual well being, you know, like we

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Speaker 1: have to stay married, we have to make this work.

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Speaker 1: And so when a marriage contract is hihilated through sexual infidelity,

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Speaker 1: that tends to be a thing that women will really

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Speaker 1: protests and kind of quote unquote let themselves take seriously.

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Speaker 1: Whereas there's probably been emotional, psychological, mental forms of betrayal,

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Speaker 1: if not abuse, but betrayal, like for years and years

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Speaker 1: and years, you know, before that affair that happened. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is a tangent or if this

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Speaker 1: goes in line with what we're talking about. But I

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Speaker 1: was having a conversation with somebody a couple of years

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Speaker 1: ago and we were talking about this might really get

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Speaker 1: you going, because this got me going. We were talking

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Speaker 1: about like abuse and trauma and victimhood and all of that,

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Speaker 1: and this person made the made the point as an adult,

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Speaker 1: you can't be a victim. We were talking about like

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Speaker 1: relationship trauma, and she was like, you can't be a victim.

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Speaker 1: You're choosing that person would be choosing to stay in

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Speaker 1: that relationship. And I laugh because I have to calm

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Speaker 1: myself down because I just went off the handle of

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Speaker 1: do you realize that nobody in a very sound, healthy

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Speaker 1: mind would choose willingly to stay in a relationship that

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Speaker 1: is harmful to them. Nobody would do that, So obviously

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Speaker 1: we have to come from a perspective of they're not

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Speaker 1: and if they don't have full capability and relationships where

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Speaker 1: there is abuse in the person is continuing to go

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Speaker 1: back or stay, there's a reason. One of those reasons

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Speaker 1: might just be like safety, like I'm afraid what will

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Speaker 1: happen if I do leave. One of those reasons that

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Speaker 1: they don't know they have the ability to because this

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Speaker 1: person has used population and their capabilities and all that.

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Speaker 1: And so I just tell that story because what I

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Speaker 1: want everybody to know and here is that when you're

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Speaker 1: you find yourself in one of those situations, it's not

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Speaker 1: your fault. Like it's very easy to really demonize yourself.

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Speaker 1: And even when you're saying like, oh, I'm being petty,

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Speaker 1: it's like so now it's it's you, Like I need

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Speaker 1: to be yeah, more fill in the blank, like kind

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Speaker 1: of loving something. And sometimes religious abuse is a part

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Speaker 1: of that, like I just need to pray more. I

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Speaker 1: just need to be more a better Christian, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, it's so makes nice skin crawl um. And

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Speaker 1: I say that as a Christian, right, Like it's kind

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Speaker 1: of belief. It's about the abusive twisting like tainting, you know,

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Speaker 1: of of those tools. So it's a key there for

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Speaker 1: the betrayal trauma is that the trauma is happening within

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Speaker 1: somebody that you depend on. Right, So if it is macro,

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Speaker 1: it's like does it I wonder that it feels like

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Speaker 1: you don't have power because if you're depending on this person,

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Speaker 1: So then one I want to talk about some examples,

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Speaker 1: but to like, how are you supposed to help yourself

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Speaker 1: if you also depend on this thing? Yes? No, it's

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Speaker 1: such a good question and it helps I think, like

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Speaker 1: you're starting to feel some of that trapp stuck noess

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Speaker 1: just thinking about it, right, So it helps to really

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Speaker 1: I think sit with like this is really hard, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's not any person's fault. It's not any one

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Speaker 1: individuals personal failing that they don't know how to get

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Speaker 1: out or they don't know what to do. And again,

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Speaker 1: you just described really well, like the mental just erosion

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Speaker 1: that happens in that kind of setting, like death by

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Speaker 1: a thousand cuts. But then even if there's there's enough

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Speaker 1: of that mental emotional kind of inner fortitude to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: I want to get out, the options can feel really

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Speaker 1: really overwhelming in their absence, but then also overwhelming in

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Speaker 1: there like kind of making it happen, right, Like, okay,

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Speaker 1: So I'll give you an example we can talk about.

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Speaker 1: I think I sent this to in my email, Like

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Speaker 1: there's a woman who's been let's say, abused at home,

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Speaker 1: and she is a stay at home mom, and she

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Speaker 1: doesn't have her own car, and her phone is constantly

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Speaker 1: being checked her spouse and she doesn't have access to

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Speaker 1: any finances, right, and all of that is abuse. And

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Speaker 1: then maybe she's also getting physically threatened, sexually abuse, sexually

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Speaker 1: threatened right, um, so all these different forms of abuse.

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Speaker 1: If she maybe gets injured to the point of bleeding

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Speaker 1: or broken bone, she's in a hospital, the people at

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Speaker 1: the hospital may say, we got to get the police here,

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Speaker 1: this is protocol, right, we're mandated reporters. The police come

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Speaker 1: and they're like, you know, if this is the first time,

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Speaker 1: and we don't have any of the record, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like of spat and maybe the husband is there

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Speaker 1: and he's like, it was an accent, So sorry, I

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Speaker 1: lost my temper. I'm going to start a tomorrow, you know.

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Speaker 1: And police don't have like the training, you know, And

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Speaker 1: there's that's a whole other conversation about police and all that.

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Speaker 1: But whoever responds to social work or right, there's there's

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Speaker 1: sometimes not the training around interpersonal betrayal trauma, and there's

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Speaker 1: often not a clear cut plan, and there are these barriers,

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Speaker 1: like it has to be a certain amount of times

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Speaker 1: or a certain number of reports before we're going to

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Speaker 1: take steps. So she this woman is first betrayed by

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Speaker 1: her partner and then betrayed by the governmental funded systems

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Speaker 1: that's supposed to protect you, that are that are there

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Speaker 1: to protect her and help her, like that's signed for. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: then let's actually widen this out too, because I'm just

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Speaker 1: thinking about marginalized people in general, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get into a conversation really about the police, but

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Speaker 1: because there's so much there. But I was listening to

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Speaker 1: this made me think of Justin Baldoni, who's been on before.

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Speaker 1: He's awesome. He has a podcast called Man Enough, and

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Speaker 1: he had Karamo on from Queer I Have You and

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Speaker 1: I Love Karamo, So he was on and he was talking.

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Speaker 1: He was it was such a good episode because he

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Speaker 1: like just laid it out and was very honest and open,

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Speaker 1: and he was in an abusive relationship with his partner

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Speaker 1: and the police were called on them and they were

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Speaker 1: physical with each other, and he was like, the police

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Speaker 1: don't know how to handle or I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the right word is, but help a same sex couples,

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Speaker 1: especially when there are two men. It's like, oh, well, guys,

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Speaker 1: figure it out. It wasn't that big. They acted like

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that big of a deal. Because it's like

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Speaker 1: two dudes fighting in their eyes is kind of how

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Speaker 1: you described it feeling. And and that goes to like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this like a group of people nobody thought to give

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Speaker 1: to a training on that nobody thought to look at.

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Speaker 1: How do we help that? And the other thing, I mean,

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Speaker 1: same sex and then also he's black. I don't know

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Speaker 1: his partner, but there's double on that, which I don't

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Speaker 1: don't want to go too far into that, but but

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about, like, Okay, if the police are

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the people that I called to help

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Speaker 1: when I feel unsafe, well, first of all, my partner's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the one that's keep me, please keep

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Speaker 1: me safe. Then I call the police. It's the same

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Speaker 1: thing that you're talking about. Then I called the police

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Speaker 1: and they're supposed to help me, but they act like

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Speaker 1: it's no big deal. So I just you're terrified, and yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's another blow. You know. We talk about traumatic brain injuries, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's like the more the brain gets hurt, the

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Speaker 1: more likely it is to have permanent damage. It's not

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Speaker 1: like a muscle where the more you use it, the

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Speaker 1: stronger you get. Right, It's like the more it happens

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Speaker 1: the worst it gets and it compounds. So when you

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Speaker 1: talk about things doubling, it's like yes, but it's also

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Speaker 1: kind of squared. It's like bigger than just one plus one,

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Speaker 1: you know. And this this example that we're using, we

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Speaker 1: can apply it to showing up the hospital and the

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Speaker 1: police don't help. Where the hospital and social worker, but

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Speaker 1: also going to like maybe you're getting abused at home

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Speaker 1: and you go to your parents and they're like, sounds

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Speaker 1: like a young couple having a spat. Or you go

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Speaker 1: to your religious leaders, right again, who kind of hold

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Speaker 1: some power in terms of your spiritual eternal well being,

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Speaker 1: if that's part of your belief system. You might go

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Speaker 1: to your religious leaders and they're like, I think you

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Speaker 1: just need to practice humility, right, or here take this

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Speaker 1: scripture to read and pray harder, right, And I say

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Speaker 1: it in this mocking way, and I'm frustrated about it.

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Speaker 1: I do feel hopeful for like the direction we're headed.

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Speaker 1: But there have been so many people And my specialty

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Speaker 1: is in, you know, heterosexual couples working with women in

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Speaker 1: betrayal trauma. But when I think about it, like you said,

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Speaker 1: applied to marginalized communities, communities of color, queer community, immigrant community.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just so many, so many levels at

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Speaker 1: which this happens. It's not like at home and then here,

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Speaker 1: it's like every step along the way there's another traumatization

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Speaker 1: is much more likely to happen than not. There's a

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Speaker 1: difference in being a victim of abuse and playing a

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Speaker 1: victim role totally. Yeah, And sometimes we get in those

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Speaker 1: spots and we choose to play that victim role, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it helps us get a need met, whether that

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Speaker 1: need is like I don't want to do anything, or

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Speaker 1: I want other people to do things for me or

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Speaker 1: all that. Sure, this is not that. And I'm just

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Speaker 1: imagining how hopeless one might feel in these experiences of

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Speaker 1: if the person that's supposed to protect me or the

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Speaker 1: person I'm supposed to be able to trust, or this

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Speaker 1: person like and then the person above them. It's how

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Speaker 1: do I learn? Because I would imagine it would the

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Speaker 1: trauma blows would in some circumstances just like almost like

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Speaker 1: make a person feel smaller and smaller and smaller and

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Speaker 1: more alone and more alone and more a own and

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Speaker 1: more scared. And how do I build myself so I

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Speaker 1: can go get my needs met? Because The opposite of

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Speaker 1: that is, like, this person supposed to help me get

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Speaker 1: my needs met isn't helping me. Well, if I'm being

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Speaker 1: kind of like created smaller and that, how do I

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Speaker 1: build myself back up so I don't have to I'm

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Speaker 1: a victim, but I don't have to play the victim role.

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Speaker 1: I can feel like I can help myself. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: like the way you're being clear and careful. Like to

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Speaker 1: be victimized, right, can kind of happen to anyone, But

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Speaker 1: to like identify as a victim and thrive, and that

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Speaker 1: victim mentality is a whole other unhelpful place to be

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Speaker 1: some kinds of that. It's often like a step, right,

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a stage in the process. So to

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Speaker 1: answer your question, how do I build myself back up?

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Speaker 1: What I see happen over and over and over again

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Speaker 1: is women kind of internalizing messages that tell them it's

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Speaker 1: not that bad, and so they tell themselves, Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: not that bad. It's not that bad. At least he

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Speaker 1: hasn't hurt me, or at least he hasn't touched my kids,

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Speaker 1: or at least, you know, I have a roof over

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Speaker 1: my head, I have food on the table, I don't

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Speaker 1: have to work like I should feel grateful, right. They

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Speaker 1: kind of talk to themselves in this way that they've

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Speaker 1: been talked to, you know, the internal life the external

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Speaker 1: and oh say that again, So they internalized the external

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Speaker 1: external the message. The message is that this person or

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Speaker 1: the system is sending them yeah yeah, And so many

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Speaker 1: times they'll again like go to a trusted loved one

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Speaker 1: and be be really invalidated and minimized, and so they're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess it's me and so I just

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Speaker 1: need to work on myself. But it actually contributes to

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Speaker 1: that erosion, right because they internalize those really unhelpful external

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Speaker 1: messages and they get like you said, really really small,

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Speaker 1: hopeless like deep depression, manic anxiety, perfectionism. A lot of

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Speaker 1: the women I work with end up throwing themselves into

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Speaker 1: things like food, diet, body sculpting, you know, like that

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Speaker 1: kind of like you know this because I think you're

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Speaker 1: a spin instructor, right, Like you can see that a

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Speaker 1: gym culture. So they'll just kind of make themselves smaller

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Speaker 1: in literal ways, right, like trying to really take control

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Speaker 1: where they can. Often what happens though, like how do

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Speaker 1: I build myself back up. It starts with there's some

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Speaker 1: line that maybe they didn't even know they had that

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Speaker 1: gets crossed, and that's maybe the affair, right, or the

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Speaker 1: kids are in the room when he throws something right,

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Speaker 1: or the kid gets hurt, or they're in the car

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Speaker 1: while he's driving drunk like these, this line that they

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Speaker 1: thought would never be crossed or had never really considered

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00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: as a real boundary, it gets violated, and you I'll

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Speaker 1: see women like put their kids in the car and

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00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 1: drive away and have no idea where they're going, or

404
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Speaker 1: just like walk away with the clothes on their back.

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Speaker 1: And this is where I feel hopeful, is because much

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Speaker 1: more often than not, especially lately, I end up working

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00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: with women who are not to that point yet, but

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00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: they can kind of see it happening, and so we

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00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: start to make plans around how to notice when we're

410
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Speaker 1: getting close to the edge of the cliff and not falling,

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Speaker 1: like we want to recognize it. And you know, if

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Speaker 1: it's domestic violence, then that's a safety plan, But more

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Speaker 1: often than not, it's this really insidious, much more abstract

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Speaker 1: psychological violence, emotional mental abuse. And so in that case,

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00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: it's a lot of recognizing what emotional safety is, you know,

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Speaker 1: and tuning in with themselves, so building themselves up. If

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Speaker 1: they're not worried about physical safety, it's often like, let's

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Speaker 1: get you in like a journaling habit, you know, let's

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Speaker 1: get you in a group. The combination of group therapy

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00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 1: and one on one therapy is so good, amazing, Yeah,

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00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 1: it's so cool. Or maybe a support group, you know,

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00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: but some setting where you can like start to talk

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Speaker 1: about us and get validation and and help help with

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Speaker 1: that building because we can't do that for ourselves, we

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Speaker 1: can't do it alone. Well, I wonder for a lot

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Speaker 1: of these women, it's like you're getting sent these messages

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Speaker 1: and then you're internalizing these messages, and it sounds like

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00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: a very scary thing to go out and start trying

429
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: to challenge those messages, because if you really truly believe

430
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: those things, it's like why I am worthless? I am

431
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: I do need this person, I am this, And so

432
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 1: there's one I don't feel like I'm really capable of

433
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 1: doing that because I'm this bad, worthless person, but also

434
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 1: like I really believe that. So it just sounds to

435
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: me very keep using this word like terrified and scary

436
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: and the women that are going out and taking that

437
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,360
Speaker 1: step and challenging that like one of the most courageous

438
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: things probably somebody can do. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's

439
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: the more fear there is, the more courage there has

440
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: to be, right, really really scary. And often they'll kind,

441
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: they'll meet with me for an hour and then they

442
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: won't think about it. They won't do anything else until

443
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 1: they see me again in like two weeks, because they

444
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: just are really slow, right, And we need to acknowledge

445
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: too that often women are dependent on their husbands certainly

446
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: emotional physical safety, but like to have food in their

447
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: house right and to pay any bills, and there can

448
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: be financial abuse where they don't have access to the money.

449
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: And so there's a real like biological survival instinct here,

450
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: like if I leave, I might not literally survive, I

451
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: might be literally homeless and literally not be able to

452
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: buy food for myself for my kids. So we have

453
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: to And that's where the betrayal is so sharp, because

454
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: there's so much control and power that can be utilized.

455
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: And in any sort of healthy interdependent marriage, a partner

456
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: can stay home. It's not about both of you need

457
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: to work and make money. It's is there overt and

458
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: equal power or is there covert unequal power? Right, and

459
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: betrayal trauma is very lopsided. It's very covert and it's

460
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: very unequal. And I bet that financial abuse is purposeful.

461
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: Like the financial abuse is purposeful because there's there's so

462
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: much power in that and it's like holding I just

463
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: think of like holding somebody hostage. Yes, that's what it

464
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: sounds like. Yeah, And that's where we go back to

465
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: that betrail bonds idea, is that there is something very

466
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 1: very powerful about the slow It's like being a what

467
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: is it the frog in the pot with the water

468
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: turned on and you don't notice that it's boiling until

469
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: it's too late, right, Like this really baby steps slow

470
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: burned exactly where maybe she lost her debit card or

471
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: it got stolen, and he's like, don't worry, we'll be fine,

472
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, And it's not like you do not have access.

473
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: It's almost never specifically, it's also like you lost it, right, Yeah,

474
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 1: so sorry, I'm know I'm the flaky white Like they're

475
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: all things that can just layer on and so unpacking

476
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: that and validating every single experience of abuse at least

477
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: that you know is in the memory and feel is important.

478
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: Takes time, and so the rebuilding usually is a slow

479
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: burn itself and takes like a couple of years at least.

480
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: That there's a big difference if you look at like

481
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: one month to the next, one month, month one to

482
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: month six to month nine. There are these shifts that

483
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: are really important to acknowledge and it's really powerful. But

484
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: then I think we need to talk about like at

485
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: the macro level there is financial abuse, right, and I

486
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,959
Speaker 1: think about the institutions and organizations around religion, there's a

487
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: lot of power and control dynamics happening. Have you seen

488
00:26:51,680 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: that the HBO documentary The Way Down? No? Okay, well

489
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 1: that's a whole conversation. It's interesting because this quote unquote

490
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: church is in the town I grew up in, Remnant Fellowship.

491
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: But the HBO released a documentary about two weeks two

492
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: or three weeks ago on this church and kind of

493
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: exposing the cult like system that it is. And I

494
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: think with that as well, there's this question that people

495
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: are like why don't they leave? My sister in law

496
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: actually said like why do those people stay in there?

497
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 1: Like why do you think that the people still go

498
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: to the church and all that, And I was like,

499
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,719
Speaker 1: because that's the power of manipulation and brainwashing. They believe

500
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: that that is the good, the goodness they believe that

501
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: they're in. Oh no, no, no, no no. It's a

502
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: grooming process. And they even talk about that, the grooming

503
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: process of that. And so do you get somebody to leave?

504
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: What you're talking about is with the with women is okay.

505
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: It's the slow process of changing their narrative in their head,

506
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: rebuilding their belief system, and they have that's slow. That

507
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: doesn't it didn't happen overnight, and it's not going to

508
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: shift overnight. And so getting somebody if I were just

509
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: to go to somebody that is part of a cult,

510
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: and I was to say, this is a cult, these

511
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: people are crazy, for lack of a better term, you

512
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: need to leave and come with me, they would think

513
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: I was the crazy one. They'd like, no, no, no,

514
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: Like I promise these people are good. What I often

515
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: say to women, especially for sure, if there's domestic violence

516
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 1: or like threat of domestic violence, I'll say to them

517
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 1: a session one at some point you're probably going to

518
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: need to leave, whether for a separation or forever, or

519
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: ask him to move out, like at some point that's

520
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: probably gonna need to happen. At some point you're gonna

521
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: feel ready to do that. That's not now, and that's okay,

522
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: Like we're gonna stick together. There is no timeline, there's

523
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: no deadline. Right, I'll be with you until you get

524
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: to that point. But just so you know, right, like

525
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: this is part of the healing process. And that's even

526
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: true of healing the marriage. Right, these guys like they

527
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: can change and they can heal, and I've seen miraculous

528
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: recovery right on that end of things. But it's very

529
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: much acknowledging like this takes time and it's going to

530
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: take space, and it's so much it's going to change,

531
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: and I'll hang out with you until we get that.

532
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: Until that happens. It's just the patients and that it's

533
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: so powerful. I'm wondering what you think is is more

534
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,959
Speaker 1: difficult or challenging or what poses I don't even if

535
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: you can answer this question. More of a problem. Is

536
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: this macro level betrayal trauma or the the interpersonal relationship

537
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: betrayal trauma? Because to me, it seems this is me

538
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: making an assumption based on not knowing. But it seems

539
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: easier to leave a partner than to leave either a

540
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: religious system or a government. Like Okay, I'll say this

541
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: and it will feel like I'm changing the subject, but

542
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: I'm not. It's really important for all of us to

543
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: acknowledge like we are all these women, like we are

544
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: all these people because we live and this is probably

545
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: true of pretty much anywhere in the world, but I'll

546
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: speak for our country, Like living in the United States,

547
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: we all experience some sort of disappointment or betrayal from

548
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: our government, from our culture, from the organizations that have power.

549
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: I don't mean that as like an accusation. That's just

550
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: part of living in this country that is imperfect, right,

551
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: So we all know what it's like at some level

552
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: to be betrayed, to put our trust in someone or

553
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: something and be really disappointed. And we also know what

554
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: it's like to put our trust in someone or something

555
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: that has power and to feel the weight of that

556
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: power being wielded against us. And it might be what

557
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: feels small because you have this internal fortitude because you

558
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: haven't been betrayed in your interpersonal relationships, you know, to

559
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: a significant degree, so you can like tolerate. I don't

560
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: know the judge ruling against you in like a petty

561
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: civil lawsuit, right, like, okay, whatever, you know, that's annoying,

562
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: but like I can deal with it, or you can

563
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 1: tolerate even people being elected to office that like really

564
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: feels like a gut punch, right, but you you're like

565
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: day to day is stable and okay. So we all

566
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: know to some level, right, And so I think it's

567
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: really important that we like we're all in this, in

568
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: this group, and we're also part of the systems, and

569
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: so we're all also the betrayers, you know, we all,

570
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: especially as white people, like we are part of this

571
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: dynamic on both sides. And so when it comes to

572
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: thinking about what is harder, they're different, but they're also

573
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: the same, right, Like the big organizational systemic macro level

574
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: traumas that happen that are aimed at individual I think

575
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: can feel just like finding out maybe you know your

576
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: husband had this affair, because betrayal is betrayal, like under

577
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: the surface, it can feel like a gun punch either way.

578
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: And when I think about like how to create change, obviously,

579
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: like my work is on that micro level that has

580
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the right way to

581
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: word of like macro impact. Right, it's really very like

582
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: earthquake in their lives, but to work on an interpersonal

583
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: But then again, my favorite authority on this Jennifer Fried.

584
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: She has this really cool organization Something for Courageous Institutions.

585
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: Her purpose is to help organizations institutions like step out

586
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: of that betrayal role and own their power in a

587
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: way that empowers the individuals. It's really really yeah. And

588
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: so I you know, when I say I think they're

589
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: both hard, I'm speaking from this position of experience with

590
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: the one and in experience with the other. But work happening, right,

591
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: Like there's cool stuff happening, So I feel hopeful. And

592
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: it's also it's just like hard heard stuff. But I

593
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: like that you mentioned that because the word that came

594
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: to mind was it's just like there's so there's like

595
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: some redemption in this of like this is scary and

596
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: and and and it's like we're like demonizing the government

597
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: or the police or this person or that. But there's

598
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: also what I hear, and that is when we can

599
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: educate people and we can help people understand what these

600
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: systems are, what me as an individual, if I am

601
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: a betrayer, like if I can see where I'm causing harm,

602
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: and if there are people that are willing to help

603
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: me learn um in a gentle kind way, I can shift.

604
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: And it doesn't have to be the victim always has

605
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: to be the one that goes and does that. Like

606
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: we can also as a betrayer do that work as well.

607
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: I think that's something that is not talked about a lot,

608
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: because one we have this cancel culture thing that's all

609
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: around us, and then too it can be somewhat dangerous

610
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: if we're like well, I don't want to compare that

611
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: to like walk in the line of like well, he

612
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: can change, but when it comes to these systems, it

613
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: feels different. There needs to be right, and the person

614
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: his totally disempowered and victimized is the head injury of

615
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: the triage. Right, we need to really give attention and

616
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: focus there. And then the person who is doing the betraying,

617
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: who is also a human who obviously is having a

618
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: hard time, right, he or they need support as well.

619
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: If there's going to be a victim, there has to

620
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: be a persecutor, and neither one promotes mental health, like

621
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: none of none of those roles saying with the rescuer,

622
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with the job John Triangle rescuer is

623
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: not good for our individual or systemic health, right, So yes,

624
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: let's like humanize everybody. And it reminds me of last

625
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: year when Black Lives Matter was really in the forefront.

626
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: There was all this social justice movement. I can't remember

627
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 1: where I first like was kind of confronted with this idea,

628
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: but somewhere someone told me, like, it's okay to admit

629
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: to racism. It's actually really powerful to be able to

630
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: just say, like, yeah, sometimes I think and act and

631
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: believe in racist ways, and it kind of it takes

632
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: the pressure and the shame out of it, and then

633
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: we can actually do some good work. And that's true

634
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: of people who find themselves betraying the people they love,

635
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: or at the heads of companies that betray the people

636
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 1: that depend on them, right, Like, oh wow, I'm really

637
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: abusing my power here, right, or I'm really using control

638
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: manipulation because I can because these people or this person

639
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: depends on me to survive. And that's not a pleasant

640
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: thing to own. But when it comes with humility and

641
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: not with shame, and when the space that is held

642
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: is based in humility and openness and not in shame.

643
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: Then that's where change can really happen. Right, It's really

644
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: it's really really important for all levels of betrayal trauma

645
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: that everybody gets some sort of chance. But again, I

646
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: want to like carry out that like that there, right, yeah, yeah,

647
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: I like how you explain that they're talking about this

648
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: like different between like calling somebody out and all of

649
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: that and then calling them in and offering like a

650
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: different perspective. And I'm glad that you brought up the

651
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter stuff because I can speak to that

652
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: is like, there is this initial part of me that

653
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: was like, no, not me, Like I'm not a part

654
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: of that. I'm a good person. Yeah those other white people, Yeah, yeah,

655
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: that's not me. But what that didn't do is allow

656
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,919
Speaker 1: any space for me to like heal the damage that

657
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: I had and was continuing to cause. And so if

658
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: we don't want to. One of my favorite things to

659
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: remind people is that you can't heal what you don't

660
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: acknowledge or whatever you're you're unwilling to acknowledge. And it's

661
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 1: really freaking hard. Oh my gosh, it's one of the

662
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: hardest things ever. Had some really uncomfortable conversations and I

663
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: did have to fight and wrestle through like a blood

664
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: bath of shame because I did want to keep saying no,

665
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: not me. But I have to continue saying, yeah, that

666
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: might be me. I need to check myself, and even

667
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: I will say as a mental health profess, right, so

668
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: there's a level of power that we have within our

669
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: clients or within communities that we create in our lives.

670
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Then also like online, and we have to be very aware.

671
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: And I've got some really awesome emails from listeners saying like, hey,

672
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring this deer attention, this was painful

673
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: to hear, or I don't know if you noticed that

674
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: you do this or whatever. And there's always a part

675
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: of me that's like, no, I'm like a good therapist.

676
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to help people. But then it's like that,

677
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: it's like no, no, no, no, I have all these

678
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: bias coming out, and I need to be open because

679
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: the point of me being a mental health professional is

680
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: to help people, not to harm people. So yeah, I'm

681
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. And with the caveat of

682
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: there's a difference in somebody who is a safe, open

683
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: person willing to do that work and somebody who is not.

684
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: I keep thinking it's made because I just watched it,

685
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: But I need to watch that. It's so good, it's

686
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: so good. There's this scene where the woman who's being

687
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: abused is talking to her dad and she's like, I

688
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: need you to help me encore any custody of my daughter.

689
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: I need you to be a witness to the abuse.

690
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: And he's like, I didn't see any abuse. And she's like, here,

691
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: this is what emotional and mental abuse is. And she's

692
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: spelling out for him, and he's like, you got to

693
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: remember your husband or boyfriend. He's an alcoholic, he has

694
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: a disease, you know, and he and he just skipped,

695
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 1: which is true, right, alcoholism and the shame and trauma

696
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: base and that kid, that guy needs his attention, he

697
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: needs healing. But this this instinct that some people feel,

698
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: and it's often people who have implicit power without realizing it,

699
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: or privilege that they aren't aware of white straight men

700
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: for example, right where they're like, oh, dan't yeah, he

701
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: just needs you to love him. He just needs forgiveness.

702
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: He just needs or you know, that therapist, that social

703
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: work or the place they're doing good work. They're doing

704
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: the best they can yes, of course that's all true,

705
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: and I am saying something here that I need you

706
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: to listen to, and that stuff gets skipped over, right.

707
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: So often the trail trauma through this, like addiction or

708
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: that connected to addiction, was kind of this like pendulum

709
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: swing from a A focusing on whoever has the addiction,

710
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: and then there was like Alana, you know, in all

711
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: these different offshoots, and finally it got to the point

712
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: again thanks to Jennifer Fry, that we can see like

713
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,879
Speaker 1: this is trauma and there are symptoms of PTSD here.

714
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes even diagnosed PTSD, it can become life threatening if

715
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: there's a mestic violence or often suicidality because people get

716
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: so shrunken, you know, internally or like eating disorders, they're

717
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: shrinking physically. That it's this like slow, slow, slow process

718
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 1: that can lead just to the sideality or real health risk,

719
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: you know, because of well, I feel like we could

720
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: keep going, They all stop. I can Is there anything

721
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: that I feel like we need to just say or

722
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: add before we wrap this up? Just like let's assume

723
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: that when p will say something hard is happening in

724
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: their marriage, or that they went to a doctor or

725
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: went to ask for help from a government agency, or

726
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: went to their religious leader and it didn't feel right.

727
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: Let's just like pay attention to that in our one

728
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: on one conversations. That's where we can make a difference.

729
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: So if your adult kid comes to you right with

730
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: a story to tell, let's listen. For sure, any therapists

731
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 1: are listening to this if you're interested in learning about

732
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: betrayal trauma. I think it pairs so beautifully with what

733
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: we're already just taught, you know, and kind of our

734
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: basic training. So let's learn. Let's learn together, and let's listen.

735
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: I love that. That's a beautiful way to end this.

736
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: So Okay, where can people find you? If they're like

737
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: she sounds cool? I want to keep learning from her?

738
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: Where do people find you? This spot to start is

739
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: on Instagram's Therapy with Caitlin. Caitlin is spelled c A

740
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: I T L I N. I love hanging out there

741
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: and connecting with people there. Well, thank you, this is awesome.

742
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: I love this girl, I like love talking to other therapists.

743
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: It's fine. So anytime you want to have another chat,

744
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: you just let me know. Good. I will h