1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday. 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: Of course it is vault time. This episode originally aired 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: on July and it was called Volcanoes of Life. That's right. 5 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: This is a fun one because we get into you know, 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: we we have we have episodes where we get into 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: the destructive power of volcanoes, and certainly that is a 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: very real aspect of a volcanic activity. But this episode 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: is about the positive effects of of volcanic activity for 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: a number of different organisms. So it's a it's a 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: fun topic, kind of turns your expectations um on their heads. 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My 13 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: My name is Robert am and I'm Joe McCormick. And 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about something that that I've 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: been thinking about doing an episode on for a while, 17 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: ever since I read an article a while back that 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: really interested me. And that is the surprising and kind 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: of counterintuitive link that has been proposed by many geologists 20 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: now between life as we know it on Earth and 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: the fires of Mountain doom, specifically the most violent and 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: scary of geologic processes like volcanic eruptions on the movement 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: of tectonic plates. Yeah, this is a great topic to 24 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: get into. We kind of had a I guess a 25 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: preamble to this. Uh, there's a couple episodes ago when 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: we were talking about eggs and we talked about the 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: volcano birds and the idea of a volcano being a seeming, 28 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, almost paradoxically to be something that can nourish 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: life as opposed to something that's just a purely destructive force. Oh. 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: I didn't think about that comparison at all, But yeah, 31 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: the way that the volcanic sand baby, he sits the 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: egg for the for the megapode so that it can 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: just run off and do its own thing, raised by 34 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: a volcano. Um. But so I thought a great place 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: to start here might be with a brief reading from 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: the Voluspa. It is a famous old Norse epic poem 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 1: from the collection that is known as the poetic Edda. 38 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: Now this is a this an anonymous work. The author 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: is unknown, but the Voluspa tells the story of the 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: Norse gods culminating in their destruction in the fiery doom 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: of Ragnarok. And I'm just going to read a couple 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: of quatrains here in anger smites the warder of the 43 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Earth forth from their homes. Must all men flee nine 44 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: paces fairs the sun of Fjorgan, and slain by the 45 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: serpent fearless he sinks, the sun turns black, Earth sinks 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: in the sea. The hot stars down from Heaven are 47 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: world fierce grows the steam and the life feeding flame 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: aime until fire leaps high about Heaven itself. And one 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: fun thing about this poem, it's a bit of Tolkien trivia. Robert, 50 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: tell me if you've heard this before. But the name 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: of the wizard Gandalf that first appeared in in Tolkien's 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: The Hobbit, and then of course is like the best 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,559 Speaker 1: character and Lord of the Rings. The name of Gandalf 54 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: comes from the Voluspa. Tolkien actually borrowed the name from 55 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: a section known as the Tally of the Dwarves from 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: this epic poem. Originally, he was going to apply it 57 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: to the character in The Hobbit who became thorn oaken Shield, 58 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: the leader of the Dwarf party, but then he decided 59 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: later on that it made more sense to apply the 60 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: name of Gandalf to the wizard, I think because Gandalf 61 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: means something like magic staff elf, and I think he 62 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: made the right choice. Like Gandalf, that makes more sense 63 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: for the wizard than for Thorn. But a cool thing 64 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: that happens in this poem is sort of part of 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: the Ragnarok myth is that there is a rebirth that 66 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: follows this fiery doom. You know, after the fire leaps 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: high to heaven and the Kingdom of the Gods is destroyed, 68 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: Earth is not just left in cinders. Instead, there is 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: a renewal from the fire, and the author rights, now 70 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: do I see the earth a new rise, all green 71 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: from the waves again, the cataracts fall, and the eagle 72 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: flies and fish he catches beneath the cliffs. So there's 73 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: this great link between fiery cataclysm and rebirth and renewal 74 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: of life in Norse mythology. And and of course they're 75 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, these are symbolic elements. I'm not suggesting that 76 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: they had some kind of scientific insight with this. It's 77 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: it's just something you know that I think is taken 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 1: as a metaphor largely about human life. Itself, but coincidentally 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: it ends up kind of ringing true with things we're 80 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: finding out about geology and nature. Well, it's something you've 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: see in a lot of different mythological cycles, right, I mean, 82 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: you see it in in in in Hindu mythology, you 83 00:04:53,920 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: see it in uh various Um American mythologies, you know, 84 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: thinking about Mezzo in South America in particular, this idea 85 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: that things will rise, things will fall, that there will 86 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: be cataclysm, that whole world will be destroyed, but new 87 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: worlds will rise out of them and have risen out 88 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: of them before. Yeah, I was thinking about themes of 89 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: fiery eruption and the greening of the earth together, or 90 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: sort of a creator destroyer duality. One that came to 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: my mind that that I thought you might know something about, 92 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: because I know I've heard you talk about Hawaiian mythology before. 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: Was the pale myth Yeah. Yeah, the Hawaiian goddess Pele 94 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,119 Speaker 1: is an interesting example a deity of fire and vulcanism. 95 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: I was reading a book titled Pale Volcano Goddess of 96 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: Hawaii by hr Low Nemo, and he points out that 97 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: when Polynesian voyagers first arrived in Hawaii. They would have 98 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: brought their gods with them. Now, now we don't know 99 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: where in the Hawaiian islands this would have specifically been. 100 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,040 Speaker 1: Which of the islands they would have landed on and 101 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: where and even when remains a topic of debate. I've 102 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: seen dates ranging from three hundred seed to a thousand sea, 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: and of course contact with the Europeans didn't occur until 104 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy eight. But the newcomers would have arrived on 105 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: sailing technology in keeping with that of the larger Polynesian expansion, 106 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: as well as related cultural inventions such as gods and goddesses, 107 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: all of which would then evolve into distinctly Hawaiian models afterwards. Now, 108 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: as we discussed in the show before, the Polynesians were 109 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: some of the last true explorers of the inhuman regions 110 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: of the Earth, and their saga, which is full of 111 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: fascinating history, is is It's not unlike what we might 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: expect of a space faring civilization, with time and space 113 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: sufficient enough to see the splintering and continued evolution of 114 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: societies from region to region as they spread out across 115 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: these far flung habitable spaces. Now, Nemo points out that 116 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: the first Hawaiians brought with them Kane kind of Lowa 117 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: uh Ku lon no gods known throughout the South Pacific. 118 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: But they also brought with him what was apparently a 119 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: minor fire deity named Pele. And they didn't bring any 120 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: volcano deities with them, but but she was this fire 121 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: deity that seemed to pre exist, and she likely remained 122 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,679 Speaker 1: insignificant for a while there at first, just another minor 123 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: deity like she was previously. But then eventually uh though 124 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: the Hawaiian islands shook, and the volcanic mountains, of which 125 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: six are active today, belch forth fire, magma, and ash. 126 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: And this is what Nemo writes quote, this minor deity 127 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: was apparently transferred to the volcanoes and became the goddess Pele, 128 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: who was destined to hold a powerful position in the 129 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: Hawaiian pantheon. The great volcanoes became her home, their power, 130 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: her strength, their beauty and destruction, her manifestation, and their 131 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: unpredictability her temperament. Now, Paley would not be the only 132 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: god or goddess from a pantheon in the world that's 133 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: associated with with specific volcanic activity. But I would imagine 134 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: that that a volcano god takes on a very special 135 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: significance when you are an island culture, so when you're 136 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: like geographically bound very close amidst a vast ocean to 137 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: that that ground forming and life giving volcano. Yeah. Something 138 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: to think about here is that we we see other gods, 139 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: particularly um gods in the Greek and Roman cycle that 140 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: are associated with with fire and also associated with volcanoes, 141 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: but also associated with the forge, the forging of things. Um. 142 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: We also see this in the Lord of the Rings 143 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: with with sarin Is. This is essentially a he Festus 144 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: type character. Right. But as we discussed previously on the 145 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: show in one of our Armor episodes, Uh, you certainly 146 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 1: don't see metal work occurring on the Hawaiian islands. I 147 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: mean you don't see the iron. Therefore, the taking in 148 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: the manipulation, they were using wood and fiber and shark 149 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: tooth based technology and doing and using so excellently. But 150 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: I wonder how much of it too has to do 151 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: with the fact that that pale would have been removed 152 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: from that there would have have been no human forge 153 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: to overshadow the natural cycles of fire in the earth, 154 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: you know. And on top of that, here is the 155 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: volcano itself. Here are the volcanoes and these volcanic islands, 156 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: where where it's it's activity, it's it's it's geologic life 157 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: is so obvious. Now. Nemo spends much of this book 158 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: discussing the ways that Paley is viewed, and certainly drives 159 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: home that that she's not a monolith. Traditions and ideas 160 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: regarding Pale range from religious belief and cultural identity to 161 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: the abstract, the environmental, and even uh. There are these, 162 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: um numerous examples of supernatural sightings in which one claims 163 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: to have seen or believes to have seen a beautiful 164 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: woman standing in the fire. But there certainly is this 165 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: recurring theme of one who yates with volcanic fire and 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: may also take back via the same power um of 167 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: a quote traditional spiritual respect for the life forms her 168 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: creation supports. For instance, in the book, Nemo does bring 169 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: up a specific example, UH talking with someone who lost 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: uh some property due to a volcanic eruption, and they 171 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: asked him, well, what how did this change the way 172 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: you think about Pale And they say, well, it doesn't. 173 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: Pelee gave this to me. She created the land and 174 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: I was just using it and now she has taken 175 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: it back. Yeah. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Yeah. 176 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: Now the lord that people are usually talking about when 177 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: they when they say that is the is the the 178 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: god of of of Judeo Christian tradition, right, which brings 179 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: up this question. Joe, you're more of an Old Testament 180 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: kind of guy than I am, But so have you 181 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: ever run across this argument that yahweh uh in Hebraic 182 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: tradition may have started off as a volcano god. Yeah, 183 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: I was free a bit about this. Um. This seems 184 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: like one of those things that you it's kind of 185 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: an interesting idea. You can't totally rule it out, but 186 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: it seems highly speculative and based on kind of scanty evidence. 187 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: So so I would say it's one of those things 188 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: that is possible, but probably not. I think it's mainly 189 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: based on ideas about geography, like the idea that you 190 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,559 Speaker 1: know that Sinai Mount sin I would have had some 191 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: kind of volcanic element in the past, and then referring 192 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: to specific passages in the Bible which described the Lord 193 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: in terms that people say, well, maybe this could be 194 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: describing a volcanic eruption or something, and It's one of 195 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: those things that you can often do with these geomethology 196 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: This actually, I guess would be technically geomethology and geomethology inference. 197 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: And so I'd say for this one, you know, it's 198 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: not impossible, but it's kind of a reach. Yeah, I 199 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: don't think i'd I'd run across it myself, but I 200 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: saw mention of it, and one of the sources it 201 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: was often that were offense was often cited. Here was 202 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: a book by Jack Miles title of God Biography, which 203 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: is a popular work that seems to discussed this. So 204 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: I looked it up and it's in reference to Exodus 205 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 1: forty eight. Uh. He writes, quote, nothing in nature looks 206 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: like a cloud by day and a fire by night, 207 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: except a volcano. The depth of the Lord God's compelling 208 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: but contradictory power is well evoked by the extraordinary image 209 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: of a volcano brought into a tent. Now, speaking of 210 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: volcanoes and gods and getting back to to Tolkien. Uh. Now, 211 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: I've expressed in the show before that I love a 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: good journal paper that that digs into some Tolkien, that 213 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: tries to find the science of Middle Earth. We've talked 214 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: about that previously with the Hobbit, you know, the how 215 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: many meals does the Hobbit need a day and will 216 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,599 Speaker 1: be able to march across the earth? Uh. Also we 217 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: got into the metallurgy of the One Ring. So I 218 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: was like, well, somebody, somebody has to have considered Mount 219 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: Doom and um and you know, the geology of Middle Earth. 220 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: And sure enough I found a paper titled the Geology 221 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: of Middle Earth by William Anthony Swinton, Sergeant, published in 222 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: the journal myth Lore in Now, I know myth Lore 223 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: doesn't have a resounding ring of geologic authority to it, 224 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: but I looked up a sergeant who lived five through 225 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: two thousand two, and he was a professor of geology 226 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: at the University of Saskatchewan, and he also apparently wrote 227 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: a series of fantasy novels himself, The Perilous Quest for 228 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: lion S. I looked it up. I not read it, 229 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: but I've noticed you can get at least the first 230 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: two books in the trilogy on kindle and paperbacks. Amazing. Okay, 231 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: so he's the perfect person to write this, a fantasy 232 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: novelist and and clear geek who was also a professor 233 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: of geology. Yeah, yeah, And he wasn't the first though, 234 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: so he when when he dives into this, he ends 235 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: up citing an earlier paper by Robert C. Reynolds titled 236 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: the geo Morphology of Middle Earth, which is published in 237 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: The Swansea Geographer ins nineteen seventy four. So basically, what 238 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: Reynolds had done is he applied the concept of plate 239 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: tectonics to the entire geography of Middle Earth, recognizing four 240 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: different plates, the Erador played in the west, the Rovanian 241 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: played in the north, and the Harad and more door 242 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: plates in the south. And Sergeant then used this as 243 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: his starting point, kind of his bedrock, but updated it 244 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: to reflect changes in plate tectonic theory between nineteen seventy 245 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: four in nineteen Oh. Yeah, that's interesting because I would 246 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: say at the time the Hobbit was written, plate tectonics 247 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: was not yet an accepted scientific theory. Yeah. Yeah, it's 248 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: easy to to overlook that, especially for those of us 249 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: who have grown up in the wake of that and 250 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, just encountered in our science books at a 251 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: very early age. Yeah, it's one of those things that 252 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: just feels like people must have known this for hundreds 253 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: of years. But yeah, the widespread acceptance of plate tectonics 254 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: is fairly recent. Here's a quote from from that paper 255 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: by Sergeant quote. Mount Doom is indeed one of four 256 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: isolated volcanoes, each representing a hotspot at some distance from 257 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: a plate margin, and all of them associated with evil 258 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: doing dhal gouldar In Mirkwood or thonk In, Eisenard and 259 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: Arab or the Lonely Mountain. So he contended that Eisngard 260 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: was a volcanic crater with central orthanic, itself carved via 261 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: technology and magic from a column of solidified lava thrust 262 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: up from the event in its last eruption. The Lonely Mountain, 263 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: which is ever shrouded in gray and silent clouds, is another, 264 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: and he bargains its smog's chamber is just a reshaped 265 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: lava tube. But Mount Doom, the underlines, is the only 266 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: volcano that seems to be truly active in the time 267 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: of Bilbo and Frodo, and the only recorded seismic events 268 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: in the books occur first when Gandalf cast down the 269 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: ball Rog and then when Gallum falls into the fires 270 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: of Mountain Doom with the one ring uh. So Ultimately 271 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: he's as for a world in all the major events 272 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: are revolving around activities at a single active volcano. Middle 273 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: Earth is is rather seismically calm, while still being quote 274 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: geologically like our own world. Well, I gotta say, I 275 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: do not know what natural processes could create that perfect 276 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: rectangle of mountains around more Door. That seems impossible to me. 277 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: I always looked at that map and said, Ah, that's 278 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: just that doesn't look like real Earth. You've got to 279 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: make the outline a little more jagged. I understand, surrounded 280 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: by mountains, but come on, look at those corners. Uh. 281 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: This is one of the things I really liked about 282 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: about our Scott Baker's work, where he his fantasy work 283 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: takes place in this world of the Three Cs that 284 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: is very much Middle Earth that's been you know, transformed 285 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: via these various philosophical ideas and a lot of you know, 286 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: the Crusades interjected in there and some other influences. But 287 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: there is a more door like location in the books, 288 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: with a central fortress and then mountains surrounding it. But 289 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: in in his books, this is essentially an impact crater 290 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 1: created by this thing from space or beyond that has 291 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: come to the Earth, and that is the central UH 292 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: fortress in the middle of this Uh. This this vast crater, 293 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: and so the mountains encircling it are those that were 294 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: cast up by that impact. A plus very plausible. I 295 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: like it. So anyway, there's there's some just additional token 296 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: to just really kick things off here. But um, again, 297 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: I would say that that Saron and certainly is get 298 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: more connected to those those gods such as Festus, uh, 299 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: Adronus and volcanos. Uh. They are all smiths in the 300 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: human sense, all creators through technology rather than through the nature. 301 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: That seems to be their key metaphor here the volcano. Well, 302 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: to bring it back into the real world and look 303 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: at this duality of you know, the same entity that 304 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: might be both responsible for the creating sustaining of life, 305 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: but then also fiery destruction and and explosive calamity. UH. 306 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: I want to start by asking a question that we 307 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: talked about on the show a good bit, and that 308 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: question is, when you're looking at other planets, you stare 309 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: out of the night sky and and you're trying to 310 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: find examples of other planets that might be able to 311 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: sustain life, what are the conditions you would check for? 312 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: I think the most obvious is liquid water, right absolutely. 313 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: I mean water is the thing that, uh, more than 314 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: just about anything else, we just can't remove from the 315 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: equation and get to life as we know it. Yeah, 316 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: and that's one of the things we talked about when 317 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: we discussed Brian Green's book The Until the End of Time. 318 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: He has this great section where he connects the chemical 319 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: properties of water to its role in the evolution of life. 320 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 1: You know, the great power of water as this polar 321 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: molecule and as a solvent, as a sort of three 322 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: dimensional canvas for the drafting of the structure of cells, 323 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: allowing for energy to be processed and harnessed for replication. Uh. 324 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: And of course all of these virtues depend on water 325 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: being in its quid state. Water and it's frozen or 326 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: vapor state is not really useful for the evolution of life. 327 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: But in addition to just looking for the direct presence 328 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: of liquid water, there are other conditions you might be 329 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: able to look for that could, at least in theory, 330 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: make a planet more hospitable to the origin, evolution and 331 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: maintenance of life, at least in theory. And you might 332 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: not expect it, but volcanic eruptions and the plate tectonics 333 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: that volcanic eruptions might signal are another one of those conditions. 334 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: So maybe we should take a break and then talk 335 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: about that when we get back. Than alright, we're back. 336 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: So the idea we're discussing here's the idea that that 337 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: the that just as pale is not merely a destroyer, 338 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: but is also a creator. Volcanoes and the underlying plate 339 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: tectonics that they represent might also be key to life. Yeah, 340 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: and so I want to talk about an article that 341 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: I was reading by a researcher named Craig O'Neill. So 342 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: O'Neill is a director of the Macquarie Planetary Research Center, 343 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: and he's an associate professor of geodynamics at mcquarie University, 344 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: and he's done some direct research on on simulating the 345 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: evolution of heating models and you know, he thermodynamics within 346 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: planets or geodynamics. And so he starts off by talking 347 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: about how that, you know, there are two things that 348 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: make Earth unique in the Solar System. You might think, 349 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: because of the conversation we were just having a minute ago, 350 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: that one of them is liquid water, but actually no, 351 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: there are other objects in the Solar System that have 352 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 1: liquid water. Sometimes people bring up the example of Mars. 353 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: I think that's still an open question. Of course, Mars 354 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have lakes or rivers. There's some indication that it 355 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: may have transient liquid water here and there on occasion, 356 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: such as in these features called recurring slope lineer though, 357 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: I think I was reading a report that there is 358 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: spectral analysis that has disputed the interpretation of these sort 359 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: of dark spots that appear on slopes as as actual water. 360 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: I guess we don't know for sure what they are, 361 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: but um, there are other examples that are more straightforward, 362 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: like it is totally scientific consensus at this point that 363 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: Jupiter's moon Europa has liquid water under its icy surface. 364 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: It's got the shell of ice on the outside. Underneath that, 365 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: it's got some motions. They're sloshing around, they're having a 366 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: good time. Who knows what's happening there. But there is 367 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: also possibly subsurface water on Ganymede and on Enceladus. So 368 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: the two features that O'Neill singles out that actually make 369 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: Earth unique within the Solar System are that Earth has 370 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: plate tectonics and that Earth has life. And the question 371 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: that he's raising is whether these two unique features are 372 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: actually causally related. If it's not a coincidence that Earth's 373 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: crust breaks apart into plates that shift around and move 374 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: over its surface, that float on top of the mantle 375 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: that sort of spread apart in in some places and 376 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: then subduct and moved down to get sucked back into 377 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: the mantle and other places, Does that process contribute to 378 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: the creation and sustaining of life. Yeah, This is an 379 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: interesting idea because it basically comes down to the question 380 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: of of of whether a geologically active planet is necessary 381 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: for life, Like if there's something there's something in this uh, 382 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: this continued geological life that makes biological life more possible, right, 383 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: And I guess there are ways that a planet could 384 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: be geologically active but not have plate tectonics. Like I'm 385 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: going to get to this in more detail and a bit, 386 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: but there are models of planets where there are not 387 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: plates on the surface, where the surface is basically just 388 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: one single spherical hard crust sitting on top of the mantle, 389 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: but it can still have volcanic eruptions that could in 390 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: some ways regulate the heating of the planet and control 391 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: its atmosphere in a way that that could sustain life. 392 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: According to some researchers. But but we'll get in more 393 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: detail about that in a minute. So we know that 394 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: one of the pre requisites for the evolution and survival 395 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: of life as we know it is liquid water. But 396 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: why is it that Earth has maintained the conditions necessary 397 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: for liquid water basically the entire time it's existed. Ever 398 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: since we've had liquid water, there has been the ability 399 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: for water to stay liquid. It's been long enough to 400 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: allow life to continue evolving the entire time Earth has existed. 401 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: So how is it possible that Earth has been able 402 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: to maintain these habitable conditions in an almost adaptive and 403 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: almost kind of accommodating kind of way, right, like, especially 404 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: since the external conditions have changed, Like the Sun has 405 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: grown thirty percent brighter over the same period of time, 406 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: so the heat inputs on Earth have gotten much greater, 407 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: and yet still the the atmospheric climate of Earth has 408 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: stayed relatively stable. And O'Neill offers the answer that what's 409 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: going on here to keep Earth relatively stable is it's 410 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: is the profile of its geological activity. Primarily it's plate tectonics. 411 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: So first of all, you've got the idea that when 412 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: you have plate tectonics, you tend to create volcanoes at 413 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: the edges of tectonic plates, and when volcanoes erupt, they 414 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: release stuff from the Earth. Stuff from the mantle comes 415 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: up and is released up into the atmosphere. Probably the 416 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: most important things that get released here are carbon dioxide 417 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: and water vapor. Now this this is a great point 418 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that we sometimes lose track off perhaps when we think 419 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: about volcanic eruptions and they're more destructive aspects. The idea 420 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: that uh, that you could have and you do have 421 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: examples of terrific volcanic eruptions um blocking out the sun, 422 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: essentially forming a kind of nuclear winter type effect, uh, 423 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: sometimes on on the scale of an entire planet, right, 424 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: I mean, so that that could be the case if 425 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: particles get a it up into the atmosphere, that that 426 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: shield the Earth from the Sun's rays and that can 427 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: create a cooling effect. But over the long term, what 428 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: they're what they're releasing is greenhouse gases, which which even 429 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: though there may be particles that block out sunlight and 430 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: cool the Earth at a shorter term, on a longer term, 431 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: they are the volcanoes are polluting the atmosphere with c 432 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: O two and with water vapor that trap heat down 433 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: in the atmosphere. So that works to help keep the 434 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: atmosphere warm. But then there are processes of plate tectonics 435 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: that work in the opposite direction to uh the natural 436 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: process of plate tectonics. It not only releases these materials 437 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, it also cycles them deep back into 438 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 1: the belly of the Earth. Now the question would be, well, 439 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: why is that important? Well, obviously, if you just keep 440 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: pouring more and more greenhouse gases like c O two 441 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, the Earth could end up like Venus. 442 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: You know, it could end up with so much trapped 443 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: he that the surface boils and there's no liquid water 444 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: and thus no life. So how does Earth deal with 445 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: the extra carbon dioxide that gets released from volcanoes? Well. 446 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: As the tectonic plates of Earth slide around on the surface, 447 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: there are sites where those plates get sucked back under 448 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: the crust and into the mantle. The Mariana Trench is 449 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: one example of a location where the plates are gobbled 450 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: up by the Earth. And as these plates get sucked in, 451 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: they take substances with them. They take water, they take 452 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: carbonate or carbonic acid, which is the mineral form of 453 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide. So the process is essentially taking CEO two 454 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: back out of the atmosphere and sucking it down deep 455 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: into the Earth. By the way, speaking of of venous 456 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: should drive home that the venous is apparently lacking in 457 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: plate tectonics. Oh yes, and but for a long time 458 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: scientist didn't think there would be any kind of volcanic activity. 459 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: But a too, a Reuter's report that came out just 460 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: this month, scientists have identified thirty seven volcanic structures on 461 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: Venus that appear to be recently active. Well I didn't 462 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: know that, but that is an interesting indicator, and we 463 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: can talk about more examples throughout the Solar System as 464 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: we go on. That is totally possible to have volcanoes 465 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: without having plate tectonics. Though if you look at a 466 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: map of volcanoes on Earth's surface, some volcanoes just appear 467 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: at random, you know, they might be in the middle 468 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: of a plate, just some mantle hot spots somewhere. But 469 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: most of the Earth's volcanoes they line up right along 470 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: those lines at the boundaries of plates. So, for example, 471 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: the western coast of the America's the whole ring of fire, 472 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, around the edge of the Pacific Ocean plate 473 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: is where a ton of the Earth's volcanoes are. But 474 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 1: there's another interesting feature of plate tectonics that that helps 475 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and that is mouth mountains. 476 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: I had never thought about this before, but I read 477 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: about this in a couple of articles in O'Neill's and 478 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: another one I'm going to mention in just a minute. 479 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: So the process goes like this. As plates move around 480 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: on the surface of the Earth, they're floating over the mantel, 481 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: they smash into each other and they bunch up where 482 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: they get smashed. So as they smash into each other 483 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: over the millennia, they raise up the bedrock at their 484 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: impact points, and one one plate pushes the other up, 485 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: and as the rock is raised up, it forms mountain 486 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: peaks of exposed mineral bedrock. And O'Neill points out that 487 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: mountains are one of Earth's major c O two sinks. 488 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: It's a place where c O two from the atmosphere 489 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: can be removed and stored in a stable form. Of course, 490 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: another example that we could think about would be trees 491 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: and plants. Remember that the flesh of a plant is 492 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: made out of carbon compounds that are built out of 493 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: c O two. They get sucked out of the atmosphere 494 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: fused into carbohydrates using the energy from the sun. This 495 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: is what photosynthesis is. So as plants build their bodies, 496 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: they suck c O two out of the sky. But 497 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: mountains also sucks c O two out of the sky, 498 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: but in a different way. They suck it out through weathering. 499 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: So as rain pours down on the mountains, the c 500 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: O two dissolved in the rain water mixes with the 501 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: minerals that are exposed in the rocks of mountains. This 502 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: forms new minerals, and then eventually those new minerals with 503 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: the c O two locked inside, drained down the sides 504 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: of the mountains and end up in the oceans. So 505 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: every time you see a mountain range, you think that 506 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: is like it's like a toilet for carbon dioxide. It's 507 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: just like the skies toilet is what that mountain is. Well, 508 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the most romantic way to 509 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: have to think of the mountains, but I think it's 510 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: beautiful toilet of the okay, But still the point of 511 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: the point is valid, yes, And then there are other 512 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: sinks as well. Also. C O two gets dissolve directly 513 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: into the ocean water itself, so it's it's coming into 514 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: the ocean in multiple ways. It gets absorbed directly from 515 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: the atmosphere into the ocean, and it drains from the 516 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: weathering of mountains and rocks down to the oceans and 517 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: ends up in the ocean floor, often in the form 518 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: of limestone. But in both of these forms, the carbon 519 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: dioxide that's locked up in the ocean eventually can get subducted, 520 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: right because at these places where the plates meet, it 521 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: gets sucked back down into the mantle. Now, this takes 522 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: a really long time. The processes we're talking about take 523 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: place over over geologic time, not like on human civilization 524 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: a line. So if you're getting your hopes up about 525 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: the idea that, oh, you know, Earth has a natural thermostat, 526 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: we we don't have to worry about climate change, Unfortunately, 527 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: that's not how this works. The natural thermostat that's established 528 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: by plate tectonics has helped keep the Earth within a 529 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: temperature range where it can maintain an atmosphere and liquid 530 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: water and at least some life forms. But this temperature 531 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: range that it maintains is number one. It's huge compared 532 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: to the range that will support stable human civilization as 533 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: it currently exists, like human civilizations and cities and agriculture 534 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: and the ecosystems we depend on are all much more 535 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: fragile than the baseline of just maintaining an atmosphere liquid 536 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: water and some life. And then of course, the other 537 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: point is that this process takes a really long time. 538 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: So even even if it could help maintain in a 539 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: much narrower range that we depend on, uh, it takes 540 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: a long it It takes, you know, beyond human civilization 541 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: levels of time to really reach equilibrium. But to just 542 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: to sum up the process of how the thermostat actually works, 543 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote directly from O'Neill. He says, quote, if 544 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: the Earth gets too hot, high levels of rainfall and 545 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: erosion start bringing c O two levels down. If the 546 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: Earth gets too cold and freezes over, the erosion mechanism stops, right, 547 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: so it stops raining on the mountains and draining into 548 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: the ocean. But vulcanism due to plate tectonics continues pumping 549 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: c O two into the atmosphere and the levels build up, 550 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: eventually melting the ice caps. It was this mechanism that 551 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: allowed Earth to recover from a global ice age in 552 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: the neo Proterozoic about six million years ago. Yeah, So 553 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: again we're talking about processes that that are taking place 554 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: a geologic scale and not a human lifetime scale. But 555 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: then also on top of that, even if you were 556 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: exceptionally long lived, do you are essentially immortal? These are 557 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: not pleasant changes to go through. I would imagine like 558 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: in either direction, we're dealing with goth catastrophe here. Oh yeah, 559 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: and these changes again, what we're talking about is how 560 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: the Earth's plate tectonic thermostat, if if this theory is correct, 561 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: which it seems like it probably is, how the plate 562 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: tectonic thermostat is able to maintain in Earth as a 563 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: habitable planet. So like it's still going to have liquid water, 564 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: it's still going to have an atmosphere that's a very 565 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: low baseline. You know that during this time they're going 566 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: to be mass extinctions there. You know, sea levels are 567 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: going to be hugely rising and falling, Huge parts of 568 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 1: continents get covered in ice and then the ice retreats. 569 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: So these are this is not like stuff that would 570 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: be like, oh it's cold outside today, These are these 571 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: are world changing variations. They just don't change to the 572 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: point that Earth is no longer habitable like Venus or Mars. 573 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yes, Still, out of catastrophe comes life. 574 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: And speaking of that, we're going to take a quick 575 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: ad break, but we'll be right back. Alright, We're back, 576 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: all right. So we've been talking about theories in geology 577 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: about how volcanoes and plate tectonics might be important for 578 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: making the Earth habitable for life and maintaining its ability 579 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: to host life over time. One of the things we 580 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: were just talking about was the idea of plate tectonics 581 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: is a natural thermostat regulator for temperature on Earth that 582 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 1: it that allows the Earth to release and absorb greenhouse 583 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: gases in a cyclical way that basically keeps the Earth 584 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: from turning into Venus or Mars or some other uninhabitable 585 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: hell um. Now, there was another article I was reading 586 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: that was in Quanta by the science writer Rebecca Boyle 587 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: from June eighteen that mentioned a number of other theories 588 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: that have connected plate tectonics and volcanoes two various life 589 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: related plot processes on Earth and uh and I found 590 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: this all really interesting, So I just wanted to explore 591 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: a few of the things that she gets into in 592 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: this article. One of them is the idea that plate 593 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: tectonics might possibly have been important for the origin of 594 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: life itself. Now, this one's somewhat controversial because we don't 595 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: know for sure when plate tectonics began on Earth. We 596 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: we don't know how early it got started. There their 597 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: various theories about that. But for example, Craig O'Neil, the 598 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: author of the article I was just talking about before 599 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: the Break, has been involved on research that posits that 600 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: before the Earth had plate tectonics, it had a period 601 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: of what was what is called a stagnant lid state, 602 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: where it didn't have plates sliding around. It had this 603 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: sort of single hard shell floating on top of the mantle. 604 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: But Boil's article points to research about how the subduction 605 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: of plates on ocean floors actually creates conditions that are 606 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: that are friendly to various types of extreme deep ocean 607 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 1: life that we think of as being similar to, or 608 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: possibly the direct analogs of the earliest life on Earth. 609 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: Uh to quote one section boil rights quote, as the 610 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: Pacific Plate is dragged down into earth mantle, it warms 611 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: up and releases water trapped within the rock in a 612 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: process called serpentine ization. The water bubbles out of the 613 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: plate and transforms the physical properties of the upper mantle. 614 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: This transformation allows methane and other compounds to percolate out 615 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: of the mantle through hot springs on the otherwise frigid, 616 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: cold floor. And it's this type of chemical reaction that 617 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: that on the ocean floor could possibly have given rise 618 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: to the earliest chemical metabolism and jump started a chemical 619 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: evolution of what would become cells and life as we 620 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: know it. We don't know for sure, but it seems 621 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: like one of the plausible origin theories for life on Earth. 622 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: In other words, the sort of ancient chemistry labs that 623 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: are are firing off random concoctions that that then end 624 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 1: up benefiting the emergence of life. Right now, there's another 625 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: thing Boils article mentions that touches on an issue we've 626 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: discussed on the show before, which is the Cambrian explosion. Apparently, 627 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: a plate tec tonics have also been implicated as a 628 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: possible cause of the Cambrian explosion. Now, brief refresher on 629 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: what's going on here. Remember we've talked about this fascinating 630 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: paleontological mystery before. Roughly five hundred and forty million years ago. 631 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: There is a dramatic change in the fossil record before 632 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: roughly forty million years ago, in a period that we 633 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: know is the edi acron. Most of the life we 634 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: have evidence of is very simple. It's soft bodied worm 635 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: like creatures, sort of leaf shaped, multicellular fraunds, a lot 636 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: of soft bodied organisms, many which are not preserved very well. 637 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: Um and there is not There doesn't seem to be 638 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: a lot of diversity of body forms taking shape rapidly. 639 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: But then over a period of time that is geologically 640 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: really sudden, there's this proliferation of animals with lots of 641 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: different body types that have hard body parts that are 642 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: preserved very well in fossils, so we have good records 643 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: of them. This is when you get the trialobyites, Anamala, Carus, Hallucigenia, Opabinia, 644 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: all of your favorite monsters of motion primeval. This is 645 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: the Cambrian explosion. And the question is what explains this 646 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: apparently sudden acceleration of evolution and diversification of life that 647 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: happened about five forty million years ago. Now, there are 648 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,200 Speaker 1: a lot of competing theories. Some I think some paleontologists say, well, 649 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: maybe the rapidity of the Cambrian explosion is sort of overstated, 650 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe there's some bias in the fossil record, but I 651 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: think it's generally agreed that, yeah, a lot of new 652 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: animal forms really do show up pretty fast, and so 653 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: other theories have to do with like changes in the 654 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 1: composition of the atmosphere. One that we've talked about on 655 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: the show that was pretty interesting is that it was 656 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: a reaction to the evolution of hunting and active predation 657 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: as a novel thing on planet Earth. There had not 658 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 1: been hunting before, and suddenly as soon as organisms are 659 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: hunting each other, there's just like this rapid race to 660 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: find new ways that bodies can be But Boil's article 661 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: points to research from that actually links the Cambrian explosion 662 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: to plate tectonic activity. So this is a paper by 663 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: Ross large at All published in Gondwana Research. And what's 664 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: their theory, Well, simplified, it goes sort of like this, 665 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: plate tectonics smash continental plates together. So the plates are 666 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,240 Speaker 1: moving around and they smashed together, and at the places 667 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 1: where they smashed together, it often raises up mountain ranges. 668 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,880 Speaker 1: And these mountain ranges at the borders of plates consist 669 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,359 Speaker 1: of exposed mineral bedrock that's heaved up into the sky. 670 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: We talked about this a bit earlier, and we we 671 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: needed this a bit too in the gold episode where 672 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: we talked about looking for gold in the ocean, and 673 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: we talked just very briefly about why one pans for 674 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: gold in mountain streams. Yes, yes, a very good point. Yeah. 675 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: So the rock that gets lifted up as it smashes 676 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: together at the edges of these plates, the mountains that 677 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: get raised up can be hammered by the elements. It 678 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: exposes the underlying minerals to you know, the wind, but 679 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: primarily the rain, and the rain drains chemical nutrients from 680 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: the rocks down into the oceans, and this causes a 681 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 1: proliferation of chemicals like phosphorous, copper, zinc, selenium, cobalt, and 682 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: stuff like that in the seas. These nutrients in the 683 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,959 Speaker 1: ocean then allow high biological productivity, the proliferation of life, 684 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: intense competition, and speciation. So it's kind of like the 685 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: some of the most important chemicals of life have been 686 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: hidden by the gods in the deep Earth and mountains. 687 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: They're the Prometheus figure freeing those and releasing them the 688 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: to the ocean where they can become a part of life. Exactly, yes, 689 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: um and so boil rights quote. Maybe more surprisingly, Large 690 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: and his colleagues also found that these elements were low 691 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: in abundance during more recent periods, and that these periods 692 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: coincided with mass extinctions. These nutrient poor periods happened when 693 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: phosphorus and trace elements were being consumed by the Earth 694 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 1: faster than they could be replenished. Large said, so in 695 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: times where the all of these very biologically useful elements 696 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: like phosphorus and some of the other ones we mentioned 697 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: are getting sucked back down into the mantle, it's subduction 698 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 1: areas faster than they're getting released from the from the 699 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 1: mountains and and other deep mineral sources. These are bad 700 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: times for life on Earth. Suddenly, it's like life is 701 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: not getting its vitamins. Boils article also mentioned several other 702 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,399 Speaker 1: interesting theories I'm not going to go deep into detail about. 703 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: One is that plate tectonic next could be responsible for 704 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: atmospheric oxygen on Earth. There there's basically a two step 705 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: procedure here. First of all, plate tectonics create continents with 706 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: rocks that don't react with oxygen in the atmosphere as 707 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: easily as the iron rich early rocks of Earth did. 708 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: And then after that, carbon dioxide gets released from rocks 709 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 1: into the air and the ocean. That feeds the growth 710 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: of photosynthetic organisms like algae, which in turn produced oxygen 711 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: as a waste product, sort of an oxygen two step, 712 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: which of course at the time was very bad for 713 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: Earth because oxygen is a poison and it will kill you. 714 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: But we evolved in the wake of that poison atmosphere 715 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,840 Speaker 1: and here we are breathing it. And then another interesting 716 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: idea that article mentions is the work of Robert Stern, 717 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 1: who is a geologist at the University of Texas Dallas, 718 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: who posits that because of plate tectonics, we have more 719 00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: opportunities for evolution on Earth than you might expect other 720 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: wise because the rearranging of continents and seas through plate 721 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: tectonics drive selection effects and the evolution of new species. 722 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: Stearns says, quote, you need isolation and competition for evolution 723 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: to really get going. If there is no real change 724 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: in the land sea area, there is no competitive drive 725 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: and speciation. That's the plate tectonics pump. Once you get life. 726 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: You can really make it evolve fast by breaking up 727 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: continents and continental shelves and moving them to different latitudes 728 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: and recombining them, which I don't know if I had 729 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: ever thought about it quite like that before, but you 730 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: do kind of see this effect throughout history as continents 731 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: drift around, they smash into each other, they separate from 732 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: each other. You see different life forms kind of going 733 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,440 Speaker 1: their own way. Yeah, coming into contact with each other 734 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: for the first time. Um, you know, just changing the 735 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: scenarios that are driving evolution. Um. Yeah, that's that's fascinating. 736 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: Never really thought about it that way. But if you 737 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: you could look at a planet with plate technomic tectonics 738 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 1: as being like the ideal laboratory for um for for 739 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: the for for evolution to take place in Uh, it's 740 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,759 Speaker 1: it's kind of like it has an automatic shuffle mode 741 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: in place. Yeah. I like that plate tectonics puts biology 742 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: on shuffle. That's so good. Otherwise you're just going to 743 00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,360 Speaker 1: listen to that one track over and over again, and 744 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: you're just gonna listen to the first three. You know, 745 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: you need to have it shuffled up every now and then, 746 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 1: so you'll you'll you'll you'll experience the album in a 747 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: new order, and suddenly you're gonna find new favorite tracks. 748 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: All right, I want to talk about one last thing 749 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: before we finish up here, which is an article I 750 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: was reading about the use of volcanoes and plate tectonics 751 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: as a proxy for habitability when searching for exoplanets, because 752 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,839 Speaker 1: that makes sense based and everything we've said here. If 753 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,879 Speaker 1: you know in the same way that we would look 754 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: for signs of water on another world as a potential 755 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: as a potential sign that the conditions could be right 756 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: for life, then perhaps looking volcanoes makes sense as well. Yeah. 757 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 1: So I was reading about this in a in a 758 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: NASA press release that was covering a paper published an 759 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 1: astrobiology in by im Misra at All called transient sulfate 760 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: aerosols is a signature of exoplanet vulcanism. I think these 761 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: researchers were out of the University of Washington and they're 762 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: publishing a method for detecting volcanic activity on exo planets 763 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,279 Speaker 1: to figure out which ones might be good candidates to 764 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,960 Speaker 1: host life. For all the reasons we've been talking about now, 765 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: This began with students trying to find ways to detect 766 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: plate tectonics on exo planets. Obviously, you can't resolve the 767 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: surface of an exo planet with a telescope or look 768 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 1: at it long enough to know if it's got continents 769 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: that are moving around um. But the lead author Misra 770 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: said in this press release quote, I came up with 771 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: the idea of looking at explosive volcanic eruptions as a 772 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,759 Speaker 1: proxy or stand in for plate tectonics. I'd done some 773 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 1: work modeling air ausols produced by volcanic eruptions for other projects, 774 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: so I started looking into how we might detect an 775 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: eruption and what it would tell us. Now, this is 776 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,479 Speaker 1: specifically focusing on explosive volcanic eruptions that tend to happen 777 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: at the edges of tectonic plates. Again I mentioned this earlier, 778 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 1: but if you look at a map of tectonic plates, 779 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: you'll notice that the boundaries match up two lines of 780 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,320 Speaker 1: volcanoes on the surface of the Earth. Now, what is 781 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 1: it about explosive eruptions in particular? We you know, we've 782 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: all seen footage of volcanic eruptions that are not particularly explosive. 783 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,239 Speaker 1: They're basically kind of gentle lava flows. Relatively gentle, you know, 784 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: it's still a planet. And even during more you know, 785 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: middle of the road volcanic eruptions, the gases and aerosols 786 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: that get expelled from the Earth often tend to fall 787 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,719 Speaker 1: back to the surface pretty fast, at least fast on 788 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: a geological scale. But during these really highly explosive eruptions, 789 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: gases and particles shot up from the volcano or often 790 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: shot into the stratosphere, where they can linger for months 791 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: or years, and they affect what's called the transit transmission 792 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: spectra of the planet. This is something that we can 793 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: actually detect with telescopes at at a distance of you know, 794 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,359 Speaker 1: as far away as other stars and their planets are. 795 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: So by looking at the frequency of light reflected by 796 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,799 Speaker 1: an exoplanet as it transits in front of its star 797 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: between us and its star, you might be able to 798 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: detect whether there are transient sulfate aerosols from explosive eruptions 799 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: in the stratosphere, which in turn would be a good indicator, 800 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: though not a guarantee, of plate tectonics down on the surface. 801 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,759 Speaker 1: The authors of the study right quote, We propose that 802 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: the detection of this transient signal would strongly suggest an 803 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,879 Speaker 1: exoplanet volcanic eruption if potential false positives such as dust 804 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,840 Speaker 1: storms or bow light impacts can be ruled out. Furthermore, 805 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,320 Speaker 1: because scenarios exist in which O two can form a 806 00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:00,800 Speaker 1: biotically in the absence of volcanic activity, detect of transient 807 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,720 Speaker 1: aerosols that can be linked with vulcanism along with detection 808 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: of O two would be a more robust biosignature than 809 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: O two alone. Right, So this is another This is 810 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: linking to another idea people have had that if you 811 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: can look at an exoplanet and detect oxygen free oxygen 812 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,320 Speaker 1: in its atmosphere, that might be a sign of life 813 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,680 Speaker 1: in the atmosphere because you know, oxygen is often a 814 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 1: byproduct of organisms, like photosynthetic organisms on Earth, but you 815 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: know O two can be produced by other things. So 816 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,280 Speaker 1: they're saying, if you find that, and you find signs 817 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: of volcanoes, this is a good sign that this is 818 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,280 Speaker 1: a living planet. I mean, it sounds like a solid 819 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 1: argument to me based on what we've seen here, and 820 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,200 Speaker 1: it's and the thing is, I mean, it's still vital 821 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,399 Speaker 1: information about the nature of a given world. So it's 822 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,399 Speaker 1: not like you'd be you know, you know, chasing after 823 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: a wild hair here, this would be essential information either 824 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: way exactly now. On the other hand, we mentioned that 825 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: volcanoes are not a sure sign of play tectonics, and 826 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: this brings me back to something I wanted to talk about. 827 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: That was also from Craig O'Neill, because O'Neill was writing 828 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: about how you know, because of the assumed association between 829 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: plate tectonics and life, some astronomers and astrobiologists are interested 830 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 1: in looking for exoplanets but the potential for aliens and 831 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 1: uh and they've tried to focus on places where plate 832 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: tectonics seemed likely to exist, and one candidate that O'Neill 833 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 1: points out was long thought to be these planets called 834 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: super Earth's their terrestrial or rocky planets like Earth, like Mars, 835 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 1: like Venus, but even bigger than Earth. And O'Neill writes 836 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 1: that it was once believed that the odds of finding 837 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,680 Speaker 1: plate tectonics on big planets like this was higher, but 838 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,240 Speaker 1: now it seems like that might not actually be true 839 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: because computer simulations have shown that you can probably have 840 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,520 Speaker 1: very large rocky planets without plate tectonics and instead with 841 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: a surface conforming to this thing I mentioned earl are 842 00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 1: called the stagnant lid model, which sounds gross. Basically, it's 843 00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,480 Speaker 1: where the interior of the planet is hot, it's cooling, 844 00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,680 Speaker 1: it's releasing its heat, and the heat is released through 845 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: volcanic eruptions. But the surface does not have moving plates 846 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: and so no recycling of water and CO two to 847 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: the interior like we have in the subduction on Earth. Uh, 848 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,040 Speaker 1: no formation of mountains or natural mineral sequestration like we 849 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,239 Speaker 1: have on Earth. It's just going to be kind of 850 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,319 Speaker 1: a big, rocky planet with a hot interior that has volcanoes. 851 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,839 Speaker 1: But the volcanoes just sort of poke up occasionally out 852 00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:41,320 Speaker 1: of its solid, spherical, rocky shell. And O'Neill and the 853 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,520 Speaker 1: co authors of his of his paper that this article 854 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: was based on, we're addressing the question of how is 855 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: it exactly that planets evolve over time? And they came 856 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: to the idea that planets might start hot and turbulent 857 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: and then far down the road they end up cool 858 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: and geologically inactive. And that quote. We found that the 859 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: evolutionary track of planet takes depends not only on its size, 860 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: but on how it starts. For example, two planets identical 861 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,359 Speaker 1: in every other way, but with different starting temperatures may 862 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,560 Speaker 1: evolve down very different evolutionary paths. And so what they 863 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,319 Speaker 1: argue is that plate tectonics like we have on Earth 864 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 1: might simply be a phase in the evolution of planets, 865 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,800 Speaker 1: sort of a lacuna between two eras of stagnant lids. 866 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,040 Speaker 1: And it's possible Earth was once a stagnant lid planet 867 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: with a single hard shell, and now we have plate tectonics, 868 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 1: and maybe maybe one day we will not have plate 869 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:43,360 Speaker 1: tectonics anymore. So if this is the model that habitable 870 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: world's take, you would you would end up having, assuming 871 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,879 Speaker 1: they live long enough, some sort of highly evolved life 872 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 1: form ruling over a stagnant lid Earth. That's that's possible. 873 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,880 Speaker 1: Though there was another report I was reading that that 874 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,359 Speaker 1: complicates all this, because you know, as I was saying, 875 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: this is still not a fully settled question. I was 876 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,680 Speaker 1: reading a report from Penn State News about a couple 877 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: of Pin State researchers geoscientists. They're named Bradford Foley and 878 00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: Andrew Smi, who argued that no, in fact, they're findings 879 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,319 Speaker 1: show that you don't necessarily have to have plate tectonics 880 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 1: to sustain life on a planet. Given certain conditions, you 881 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: can just have volcanoes basically keeping the planet the roughly 882 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: the right kind of temperature. Now, that wouldn't invalidate all 883 00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,400 Speaker 1: the stuff we've said about the role that plate tectonics 884 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,360 Speaker 1: have played in the evolution of life on Earth. But 885 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: it's still basically just an unsettled question. It seems to 886 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,400 Speaker 1: me whether or not plate tectonics are really necessary for 887 00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: the existence of life on a planet or not. By 888 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,439 Speaker 1: the way, one cool thing I came across, I didn't 889 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: get super deep into this, But it's also hypotheses about 890 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: what happened to Earth's early stagnant lid in order to 891 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:58,760 Speaker 1: turn Earth into a into a planet with with subducting plates, 892 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: plates moving around, sliding under each other. And one theory 893 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:07,440 Speaker 1: is that it was asteroid bombardment. So Earth may up, 894 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 1: yeah exactly. Earth may once have had this this solid 895 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: shell on the outside where without moving plates, and then 896 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: some kind of impact or series of impacts broke it 897 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,239 Speaker 1: all up and got things churning around, and ever since 898 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,920 Speaker 1: then we've had a crust in the form of moving 899 00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 1: plates instead of one solid plate, and that that has 900 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,840 Speaker 1: a very kind of divine feel to it, right, like 901 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,480 Speaker 1: a stagnant world that is no longer advancing or creating 902 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,879 Speaker 1: anything new. And so now some fourth beyond them has 903 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: to rain down destruction so that so that like new 904 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:46,799 Speaker 1: possibilities can emerge out of this shattered, stagnant lid. Yeah. 905 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: And and the one last thing I want to mention 906 00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,640 Speaker 1: here is that O'Neill points to one of my favorite 907 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,600 Speaker 1: objects in the Solar System as an example of a 908 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: of an object like a planet that can be geologically 909 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: active and have volcano without having plate tectonics. And that example, 910 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,880 Speaker 1: of course is Jupiter's moon Io, the yellow hell of 911 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,240 Speaker 1: Galilee and sulfur. You know, this was one of my favorites. 912 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,800 Speaker 1: And when we did the episode about Jupiter's moons, and 913 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:17,320 Speaker 1: so Iowa is Jupiter's innermost major moon. It's very geologically active, 914 00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 1: even more so than Earth. It's the most volcanic object 915 00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,800 Speaker 1: in the Solar System. And this is a result of 916 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,319 Speaker 1: tidal forces that act on the guts of Io. It's 917 00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 1: gravitational man handling by Jupiter slashes the guts of this 918 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:37,880 Speaker 1: moon around and uh and its heat mostly escapes to 919 00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,239 Speaker 1: the surface through what O'Neill calls heat pipes. These are volcanoes, 920 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,600 Speaker 1: not through the movement of tectonic plates. So to come 921 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,319 Speaker 1: back to our our god analogy here, in this case, 922 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:53,239 Speaker 1: the god that is Jupiter is uh is too involved 923 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: in the in the in the nature of the planet. 924 00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: It's like a um and micromanaging oppressor UH as opposed 925 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 1: to one that just periodically brings about destruction. Yeah, exactly, Jupiter, 926 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,360 Speaker 1: it will never leave you alone. And I think what 927 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: Ion needs to do is to go down into the 928 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,040 Speaker 1: void and get the dim O organ to come up 929 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: and and kill Jupiter like he does in uh Oh, 930 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: what's that play? Prometheus Unbound? There you go. But anyway, so, 931 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,399 Speaker 1: I don't know, I found this really interesting. I don't 932 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 1: think I had ever looked this deeply into how entangled 933 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 1: the geology of Earth um and specifically it's it's mineral geology. 934 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:37,319 Speaker 1: It's rocks are with the with the evolution of life 935 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: on Earth. I think I'd always thought primarily about like 936 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:43,760 Speaker 1: temperature and liquid water. Yeah, or i'd i'd probably focus 937 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,960 Speaker 1: more on sort of everyday human level things like the 938 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,360 Speaker 1: fact that okay, that you know the soiled your volcano 939 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,000 Speaker 1: is going to be rich and good for growing things, 940 00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,239 Speaker 1: or that volcanic activity creates land that can eventually be 941 00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: become habitable, that sort of thing. But there is a 942 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:04,359 Speaker 1: much much deeper dive into like the truly geologic um 943 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:09,359 Speaker 1: level of the whole equation. Yeah uh so, anyway, Yeah, 944 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 1: I think that does it for now. But but I 945 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,840 Speaker 1: hope you've enjoyed this journey into the volcano absolutely. And 946 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,479 Speaker 1: of course, as before when we discussed volcanoes on the show, 947 00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you about your experience with volcanoes, 948 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:28,239 Speaker 1: life near volcanoes, visiting volcanoes active and dormant um, How 949 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 1: does this affect your interpretation of these amazing sites. And 950 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,399 Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of stuff 951 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,440 Speaker 1: to blow your mind, well you can find us wherever 952 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,759 Speaker 1: you find your podcasts and wherever that happens to be. 953 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,279 Speaker 1: Just make sure you rate, review, and subscribe if you can. 954 00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,000 Speaker 1: These are acts that really helped the show out in 955 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,360 Speaker 1: the long run. Before we wrap up, I've just got 956 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,239 Speaker 1: to say so, I don't forget we need to get 957 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,000 Speaker 1: some mountains or the toilets of the atmosphere. Teachers made. 958 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:56,800 Speaker 1: Oh I don't know if that was that would be 959 00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:04,360 Speaker 1: a best seller. I don't know why worst t shirt ever. Okay, anyway, huge, 960 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,080 Speaker 1: thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 961 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,880 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 962 00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, just to 963 00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 1: say hi, or to suggest a topic for the future, 964 00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,800 Speaker 1: whatever you want, you can email us at contact at 965 00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:28,960 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow 966 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more 967 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,600 Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart radio, this is the i heart 968 00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,400 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your 969 00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:37,080 Speaker 1: favorite shows.