Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
Speaker 1: mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Ramses job.
Speaker 2: He is Ramsy's job. I am qboard and you are
Speaker 2: tuned into Civic Scipher.
Speaker 1: And we have a very special guest in the studio
Speaker 1: with us today. She goes by the name of Denise
Speaker 1: d Resnik. She is the founder and president slash CEO
Speaker 1: of First Place a Z, co founder of the Southwest
Speaker 1: Autism Research and Resource Center, and founder and CEO of
Speaker 1: DRA Collective, a marketing slash communications firm that serves clients
Speaker 1: in a variety of fields including real estate, economic development, healthcare, education,
Speaker 1: and hospitality. Today, we are using her decades of experience
Speaker 1: with autism to discuss neurodivergence in bipop communities and what
Speaker 1: happens at that intersection. So welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you and thank you for allowing me to
Speaker 3: be here. And actually the most important part of my
Speaker 3: title is being a mom. I'm the mother of two
Speaker 3: amazing children. Our thirty three year old son has autism,
Speaker 3: profound autism, and that's what brings me to this work.
Speaker 1: Okay, fantastic. Well, we are going to be having a
Speaker 1: conversation about, you know, what happens again at that intersection
Speaker 1: of neurodivergence and being a person of color, and you know,
Speaker 1: maybe some of the cracks in society that neurodivergent people
Speaker 1: might fall into, and how that could be even more
Speaker 1: problematic for people of color, you know, and we're talking
Speaker 1: about how individuals might get in trouble at school or
Speaker 1: have to interact with police, or you know, have problems
Speaker 1: you know, getting housing and things like this, and again
Speaker 1: how much more problematic that is if you're a person
Speaker 1: of color versus if you're a white person. So that
Speaker 1: and so much more. But before we get there, we
Speaker 1: are going to, as always, start things off with some Ebony.
Speaker 2: Excellence, shall we?
Speaker 1: I think we shall.
Speaker 2: This week's Ebny excellence brought to you by Actively Black,
Speaker 2: which I am actually wearing today. There is greatness in
Speaker 2: our DNA. Visit actively black dot com. This story is
Speaker 2: from Black Information Network. Maryland Governor Wes Moore is pardoning
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy five thousand low level marijuana convictions.
Speaker 2: In an interview with The Washington Posts, Moore announced that
Speaker 2: he was making the mass pardon on Monday, June seventeenth,
Speaker 2: ahead of Juneteenth. The pardons will affect, I'm sorry, roughly
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people charged with the low level marijuana possession.
Speaker 2: More described the mass pardon as and a quote far
Speaker 2: reaching and aggressive end quote executive action amid the growing
Speaker 2: legalization of marijuana. According to the American Civil Liberties Union,
Speaker 2: black Americans are three times more likely to be arrested
Speaker 2: on marijuana charges than their white counterparts. More said criminal
Speaker 2: records from marijuana charges have been used to deny housing, employment,
Speaker 2: and education to people even after their sentences have been served.
Speaker 1: Quote.
Speaker 2: I'm aesthetic that we have a real opportunity with what
Speaker 2: I'm signing to write a lot of historical wrongs. More said,
Speaker 2: if you want to be able to create inclusive economic growth,
Speaker 2: it means you have to start removing these barriers that
Speaker 2: continue to disproportionately sit on communities of color and quote.
Speaker 2: Maryland Attorney General Anthony Brown said in the statement that
Speaker 2: pardons were and I quote certainly long overdue as a
Speaker 2: nation and a racial equity issue. It's pretty powerful, man,
Speaker 2: and probably long overdue in a lot of other places,
Speaker 2: not just in Maryland.
Speaker 1: And Wesmore really shows kind of the importance of voting
Speaker 1: in local elections. It shows the importance of letting, you know,
Speaker 1: the people closest to the problem, you know, explain the solutions,
Speaker 1: because you know, as they say, the people closest the
Speaker 1: problem are often closest to the solutions. And you know,
Speaker 1: to see what he's doing with his leadership role is amazing.
Speaker 1: So all right, so first things first, I need to
Speaker 1: paint a little bit of a picture here. I have
Speaker 1: a cousin. My cousin's name is Asher, and Asher was
Speaker 1: this bright little baby boy. I'm a lot older than Asher,
Speaker 1: and you know, he was so much fun when he
Speaker 1: was little. And you know, Asher, it ended up we
Speaker 1: ended up finding out later that he had autism. And
Speaker 1: you know, my uncle and my aunt they fortunately they
Speaker 1: had some resources they were able to to deal with that.
Speaker 1: They were able to take the time and to invest
Speaker 1: and to get you know, early involvement from professionals and
Speaker 1: so forth and so on. And we realized that that story,
Speaker 1: for especially for a black family, a family of color,
Speaker 1: is more the exception than the rule. And you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that sort of brought me to you, Denise,
Speaker 1: is how involved his parents were and indeed how involved
Speaker 1: our family is with kind of taking care of each other,
Speaker 1: we learned. So let me back up a bit. My
Speaker 1: grandmother she ended up having a stroke before she passed away,
Speaker 1: and she was committed to a place where I think
Speaker 1: where they just commit people that have they're like recovering
Speaker 1: from these like really traumatic whatever. In her case, it
Speaker 1: was a stroke, and so there was a lot of
Speaker 1: older people in the place, and it just kind of
Speaker 1: looked like an old folks home. And I know that
Speaker 1: it wasn't that, but that's how it looked. Now, my
Speaker 1: grandmother had six kids and all, and there were five
Speaker 1: girls and one boy, and all those kids had kids,
Speaker 1: So my grandmother had a lot of grandkids, and she
Speaker 1: changed everybody's diapers, right, So when the time came for
Speaker 1: her to need to be changed, far be it from
Speaker 1: us to just simply ship her off to a place
Speaker 1: and let some strangers deal with it. Especially because she
Speaker 1: had that stroke, she could no longer speak. There was
Speaker 1: an air bubble on the language centers of her brain.
Speaker 1: So we decided, you know what, she changed all of us,
Speaker 1: we can change her, right, and we and to be fair,
Speaker 1: We let the professionals do what they did, but my grandmother.
Speaker 1: The point is, my grandmother was never left in that
Speaker 1: facility alone by herself, and as a result, we were
Speaker 1: on a schedule to make sure that she was cared
Speaker 1: for and whatever family members were always there twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven, and that was just to keep a watchful
Speaker 1: eye over her. But what I found when I visited
Speaker 1: First Place was that a lot of the pressure was off.
Speaker 1: It seemed like a great place. So talk to us
Speaker 1: a little bit about First.
Speaker 3: Place, sure, And I think I'll start, if it's okay,
Speaker 3: with talking a little bit more about autism, because there
Speaker 3: may be some listeners who may be questioning some of
Speaker 3: the behaviors of their children, and awareness is very important.
Speaker 3: When our son was diagnosed thirty one years ago, the
Speaker 3: instance of autism was one in twenty five hundred. Today
Speaker 3: one and thirty six children across the country are being
Speaker 3: diagnosed with autism. Well, and we know that our white
Speaker 3: families are often getting diagnosed before they enter school. We
Speaker 3: know that our families and individuals of color are too
Speaker 3: often getting diagnosed at school where they see the behaviors.
Speaker 3: And so it's really important that we have greater awareness
Speaker 3: about what is autism. Autism is a neuro biological disorder
Speaker 3: in our son's case, is making him making it very
Speaker 3: difficult for him to communicate, both expressively as well as receptively.
Speaker 3: Early on, we saw the eye contact, but then he
Speaker 3: lost that eye contact and we didn't understand why. We
Speaker 3: thought perhaps he was going deaf, and he had a
Speaker 3: lot of gi issues and sensitivity issues where he would
Speaker 3: put his little hands over his ears because the music
Speaker 3: was too loud even though we were playing it softly,
Speaker 3: or different pitches were bothersome to him. He continues to
Speaker 3: wear those headphones because he is hyper sensitive, or some
Speaker 3: individuals could be hypo sensitive, so not as sensitive to
Speaker 3: pain or to sensory issues. And so it's really important
Speaker 3: to understand those signs. And we've done a really good
Speaker 3: job the past few decades of helping those pediatricians get
Speaker 3: it right, helping them understand those early warning signs along
Speaker 3: with our school teachers to make sure that kids can
Speaker 3: be diagnosed early. And what is happening now is there's
Speaker 3: an unprecedented rate of children with autism transitioning to adulthood,
Speaker 3: some who had early intervention, some who did not, some
Speaker 3: who have been you know, we've been investing in in
Speaker 3: their schools or families. You know, this early intervention, this
Speaker 3: insurance that covers some of the early intervention too. And
Speaker 3: once the school bus stops coming, there's a cliff, and
Speaker 3: these kids slide backwards at a far greater rate than
Speaker 3: other disability groups. And if someone's not making you, requiring
Speaker 3: you to talk in full sentences, or you don't have
Speaker 3: the same structure of a day, you might see more
Speaker 3: behavioral issues. And we can't forget puberty. Puberty also is
Speaker 3: at play here and often misunderstood in terms of how
Speaker 3: autism and a diagnosis of autism might mask other things
Speaker 3: going on. So a physician or somebody a professional might
Speaker 3: see the autism but not recognize that maybe it's diabetes,
Speaker 3: maybe it's you know, puberty, maybe it's these other things.
Speaker 3: And as a white woman, I can only imagine what
Speaker 3: it might be like for a person of color to
Speaker 3: experience that in the greater community, because I know for
Speaker 3: our family that experiences are really important. Practicing is really important,
Speaker 3: and we don't always get it right. As a matter
Speaker 3: of fact, communities inclusive communities are perfectly imperfect. We get
Speaker 3: it wrong, but it's what we do after we get
Speaker 3: it wrong. That matters that practicing, So believe me, I
Speaker 3: got plenty of stink guys in the shopping you know,
Speaker 3: in the grocery store just down the street here as
Speaker 3: a matter of fact, of people looking at my kid
Speaker 3: and thinking that he was misbehaving, not understanding that it
Speaker 3: was autism. So I wanted to make sure that for
Speaker 3: all of your listeners that at one in thirty six
Speaker 3: they likely know or will meet some a child or
Speaker 3: an adult or somebody in their life that is on
Speaker 3: the autism spectrum disorder. And how we approach that with understanding,
Speaker 3: with grace, with inclusivity is really important, and we need
Speaker 3: that in all different spectrums, in all different spheres. So
Speaker 3: I really appreciate this chance to be able to join
Speaker 3: you and learn from you, and to be able to
Speaker 3: live my authentic self because my background is community and
Speaker 3: real estate development. And when I was receiving that diagnosis
Speaker 3: of autism and told in nineteen ninety three that I
Speaker 3: should love, accept and plan to institutionalize my child, I
Speaker 3: went to institutions and homes not far from where we're
Speaker 3: sitting right now, and I have to tell you I
Speaker 3: freaked out there was no way that I was going
Speaker 3: to place my son in one of those places. So
Speaker 3: I have been committed for decades to finding a better way,
Speaker 3: and as a charitable nonprofit, which is First Place, we
Speaker 3: can't do it alone. We need all the sectors working
Speaker 3: with us. So we work with public sector, with private sector,
Speaker 3: with charitable nonprofit sector. And so for your listeners and
Speaker 3: their community, taking what they have, and you have your talent,
Speaker 3: you have your voice, you have your platform. I have
Speaker 3: some different expertise. Taking what we have to make sure
Speaker 3: that we can do the best job possible in our
Speaker 3: local communities where our families, our loved ones live and
Speaker 3: practice it and make sure that we get it right.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I was fortunate enough to go on a
Speaker 1: tour of First Place, and I had a chance to
Speaker 1: meet a lot of the people that work there and
Speaker 1: to really do a deep dive into the nature of
Speaker 1: the work and really why a place like this is
Speaker 1: really important. And I'll share a bit about what I learned,
Speaker 1: because the truth of the matter is that this was
Speaker 1: a big blind spot for me as well. Despite having
Speaker 1: a cousin who was autistic, you know, there was so
Speaker 1: much that I just didn't really think about in terms
Speaker 1: of the ways that affects the condition affects individuals themselves,
Speaker 1: the ways that it affects people around them, the ways
Speaker 1: that it could create frustrations for all parties involved. And
Speaker 1: then there's a whole other facet of it too, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, how do these people make a life for
Speaker 1: themselves outside of you know, when you think of autism.
Speaker 1: You know, at least for me, when I think of autism,
Speaker 1: I think of something that is, you know, that kids
Speaker 1: deal with, and so to reconceive of the concept of
Speaker 1: autism around an adult and what comes with adulthood, everything
Speaker 1: that comes with adulthood, not just you know, jobs and
Speaker 1: and you know, responsibilities and routine and all that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff, but you know, paying bills and commuting and
Speaker 1: all these other things that are just part and parcel
Speaker 1: to that experience. You know, first Place kind of steps
Speaker 1: in and fills in those gaps. So I know that
Speaker 1: we can't call it a facility.
Speaker 4: Right for me, it's the f word if it's not
Speaker 4: used for first or forever, because it's not a facility,
Speaker 4: and we never wanted to create a facility.
Speaker 3: We live in homes, and you know, people don't live
Speaker 3: in four walls. They live in their community. So it's
Speaker 3: not just where you sleep at night or make your meal,
Speaker 3: it's what do you do all day. It's about that
Speaker 3: purposeful living. And no matter where your cousin is and
Speaker 3: where our sun is, people deserve those opportunities to learn,
Speaker 3: to grow, to volunteer, to contribute to their communities in
Speaker 3: some way and in many ways. They can bring out
Speaker 3: kindness in our community. That we have someone who's a
Speaker 3: bit more vulnerable among us, how we protect ourselves protect them.
Speaker 3: And I love this definition of community about the people
Speaker 3: in our lives. We don't pay to care about us.
Speaker 3: And you think about your grandmother and the people who
Speaker 3: no doubt we're checking on her, who aren't related to
Speaker 3: her either, but who cared about her. And so community
Speaker 3: is a really important part. And at first place, we
Speaker 3: have positioned that property, that building, that apartment community in
Speaker 3: what is known as the most autism friendly city in
Speaker 3: the world, and that's according to PBS News Hour. And
Speaker 3: that series was produced back in twenty sixteen at the
Speaker 3: time of our groundbreaking.
Speaker 1: And you could say the name of this film.
Speaker 3: It's the series called A Place in the World, and
Speaker 3: it was produced by PBS News Hour and it's twenty sixteen,
Speaker 3: and basically we had given then the journalists who produced
Speaker 3: that series a tour on the light rail here, showing
Speaker 3: them all the different places, all the doors that we've
Speaker 3: opened for healthcare, for employment, for volunteerism, for helping these organizations,
Speaker 3: these for prophecies, nonprofitcies, recreational spaces, to learn how to
Speaker 3: work with people with autism, how to accept them, how
Speaker 3: to include them, and building an inclusive community takes a
Speaker 3: lot of practice. And I love diverse communities. I'm a
Speaker 3: woman who's Jewish and bringing our brothers and sisters and
Speaker 3: people of all faiths in what it does to enrich
Speaker 3: our lives and enrich our communities. So First Place is
Speaker 3: an eighty one thousand square foot property designed not just
Speaker 3: for people with autism, but for people who need supportive housing.
Speaker 3: And it's for people who might present with autism or
Speaker 3: down syndrome, or intellectual and developmental disabilities. Because my sitting
Speaker 3: here and being a senior doesn't tell either of you
Speaker 3: what I need or want in my housing. Need to
Speaker 3: somebody's diagnosis. And that's work that we're doing not only
Speaker 3: here in Greater Phoenix, but across the country. Helping them,
Speaker 3: those local leaders, those local stakeholders, understand how to use
Speaker 3: the same language and expressing need and actually producing housing
Speaker 3: market data so that they can go to their policy officials.
Speaker 3: Because we have a housing crisis. We know that that's
Speaker 3: no secret. It's important for us to make sure we're
Speaker 3: not only at the table with our hearts, but at
Speaker 3: the table with data demonstrating what we want and need
Speaker 3: and making sure that that's part of the equation.
Speaker 2: You know, you need to be in front of a
Speaker 2: microphone far more often than you are. I don't know
Speaker 2: how often you are now, but you need to do
Speaker 2: it more well because I'm sitting here listening to you,
Speaker 2: and I'm not just being educated, but just the way
Speaker 2: that you speak, Because anybody could deliver the information, the
Speaker 2: way that you deliver the information makes it very easy
Speaker 2: to receive. It's very clear for someone who's not as
Speaker 2: familiar with spectrum or autism or the raising of children
Speaker 2: and loved ones and even strangers in that space. So
Speaker 2: please find more opportunities you have. You can come here
Speaker 2: whenever you want, as often as you want, but need
Speaker 2: to not just hear this information, but hear it from
Speaker 2: you because the way that you deliver. It is really incredible.
Speaker 2: It's really welcoming. It's not just informative, but it's I
Speaker 2: don't even know the right word, like, I'm listening to
Speaker 2: it and I care about it. I'm not just learning.
Speaker 2: It's now something that means something to me. And we've
Speaker 2: only been here for a few minutes. So as many
Speaker 2: opportunities as you have to have a microphone in front
Speaker 2: of you having this conversation, please do it more because
Speaker 2: it's necessary. You spoke before about the likelihood of diagnosis,
Speaker 2: especially with regard to the difference in those who grow
Speaker 2: up in white communities and those that are people of color.
Speaker 2: We know that the information, the awareness is important not
Speaker 2: just with the people who care about us, but with
Speaker 2: society at large. The way that law enforcement responds to us,
Speaker 2: the way that educators respond to us when they know
Speaker 2: that there's someone on the spectrum that's in their presence.
Speaker 2: How do people in gree or I guess a better
Speaker 2: way to put it is, how are people more likely
Speaker 2: to be diagnosed or have access to being diagnosed so
Speaker 2: that their journey growing up and experiencing the world is
Speaker 2: better than if not? Because we've seen how when those
Speaker 2: behaviors are mistaken, like you said, at the grocery store,
Speaker 2: and people think, oh, your son is just misbehaving, having
Speaker 2: no idea how to interpret what they see. How do
Speaker 2: we increase the likelihood of that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to add to that just a
Speaker 1: little bit. So a while back, we had a woman
Speaker 1: up on this show. Her name is Janelle Wood, and
Speaker 1: she came and spoke to us about what's called the
Speaker 1: school to prison pipeline. Basically, there was the criminalization of
Speaker 1: juvenile delinquency or whatever that really shaped outcomes for children
Speaker 1: of color. You know, they're more likely to be disciplined
Speaker 1: and arrested at every single gra level, regardless of the infraction.
Speaker 1: There was a criminal element associated with these children. And
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned that white families often get access
Speaker 1: to diagnoses and that oftentimes black and brown families don't
Speaker 1: have access to these same diagnoses. So do SI favor
Speaker 1: and kind of speak on that a little bit and
Speaker 1: how that might shape outcomes.
Speaker 3: There are a number of sources that people can turn to.
Speaker 3: There's certainly the Autism Society of America Autism Speaks and
Speaker 3: here at the organization that I co founded called the
Speaker 3: Southwest Autism Research and resource center. They're able to diagnose
Speaker 3: children remotely to cut the waiting list, to cut the cost.
Speaker 3: And it is called NODA Natural Observation Diagnostic Assessment, and
Speaker 3: it prescribes for that family member different video to upload
Speaker 3: so that the professionals can view that and can also
Speaker 3: render a diagnosis. The earlier that somebody can get diagnosed,
Speaker 3: the earlier the benefits can start, specifically insurance, whether that's
Speaker 3: public or private insurance. And that early intervention is key,
Speaker 3: but it's not the only time people can learn. People
Speaker 3: can learn throughout their lifetimes. And so I appreciate what
Speaker 3: you were saying to you in terms of the passion
Speaker 3: that I have for this. It is complex, It is complicated.
Speaker 3: You want to get to kids early, you want to
Speaker 3: make sure that the ecosystem, the community is also prepared,
Speaker 3: and that does take time. And so most recently I
Speaker 3: was with former Sheriff Great Markopa County Sheriff Paul Penzone,
Speaker 3: and he has recognized that there are people in his
Speaker 3: prison system who don't belong there, but they are there
Speaker 3: because of their autism or an intellectual and developmental disability,
Speaker 3: and they need to be treated differently than those other
Speaker 3: people in prison. And so recognizing what it is and
Speaker 3: how we can also train law enforcement to better understand
Speaker 3: the sign so that they are they don't escalate a situation.
Speaker 3: And so we were just at an international training conference
Speaker 3: for law enforcement officers, and there are training programs across
Speaker 3: the country that local communities can access. One of them
Speaker 3: is called be Safe. We also offer something here at
Speaker 3: the Southwest Autism Research and Resource Center.
Speaker 1: Do me a favorite. Let's let's send folks to a
Speaker 1: website and then take a break, but sure shop a
Speaker 1: website where folks can get at least some of.
Speaker 3: Those emport first place and spell out first first place,
Speaker 3: global dot org.
Speaker 1: First place, global dot org. All right, so when we
Speaker 1: come back, I want to have a conversation about exactly
Speaker 1: what happens or could happen at the intersection of autism
Speaker 1: and the criminal justice system, because you know, we obviously
Speaker 1: talk about a lot of that sort of stuff here
Speaker 1: on this show, and I want to spend some time
Speaker 1: also talking about sort of the economic opportunities that exist
Speaker 1: for folks with autism.