1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Very pleased to be joined on this episode of The 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Warning Podcast by David Rothkoff, a Daily Beast columnist and 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: host of Deep State Radio. I think he's one of 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: the best and most insightful writers out there talking about 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: this moment in time. David, welcome, nice to be here. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: How do you see it? What's going on in twenty 7 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: twenty three Americas, we get ready to make the turn 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: into the election year. 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: There's certainly a lot to be worried about, you know, 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: the irrationality of the degree of support for essentially a 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: proven criminal to be president of the United States casts 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: every judgment one could make it a doubt. You know, 13 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: here you have somebody who was impeached twice, and you know, 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 2: we all know the litany of his wrongs, any one 15 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 2: of which should have disqualified him since he appeared on 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 2: the scene, which was, you know, now eight years ago. 17 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: And yet at this particular moment, his control over the 18 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: Republican Party seems stronger than it's ever been, even with 19 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: all these trials, even with all we know about it, 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: and so it becomes very difficult in that kind of 21 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: circumstance to say, well, the rational analysis, which is that 22 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: he's unfit, that people know he's unfit, that the policies 23 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: he's proposing actually work against them, not for them, that 24 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: he's likely to end democracy and strip away their fundamental freedoms. 25 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: Those things don't seem to hold, And you know, it's 26 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: the kind of thing you've been talking about for a 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 2: long long time. It's very disorienting, you know, to anybody 28 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: who looks at this scene and tries to draw logical conclusions. 29 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: There's the apocryphal quote by Upton Sinclair that when fascism 30 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag 31 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: and carrying the cross. Is fascism the right word. I've 32 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: used it for a long time, and I think we're 33 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: well across the line. 34 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely the right word. I mean, they are 35 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 2: using all the tools of fascists, from threats of force, bullying, 36 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: singling out scapegoat groups in society, disinformation, attacks on institutions, 37 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: on the rule of law. So yeah, they are fascists. 38 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: And that quote, you know, bears a lot of scrutiny. 39 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: You know, with the ascension of Mike Johnson to be 40 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: Speaker of the House, a man who asserts that a 41 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 2: few weeks prior to becoming Speaker of the House. God 42 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: spoke to him and said that he was going to 43 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: have to play the role of Moses, which should have 44 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 2: somebody carding him off to a padded cell someplace. Instead 45 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: was a signal two millions of evangelical supporters of the 46 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: far right to say, this is our moment. We are on. 47 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: We are at the doorstep of a theocracy. That's what 48 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: we wanted all along. Stick with me, I'll get you there. 49 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: There is a fairly well reported story about Stephen Miller 50 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: where Stephen Miller is in the Oval office and General 51 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Millie turns towards him and says, quote, shut the fuck up, 52 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: Stephen end quote. And the occasion of this is Stephen 53 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: Miller speculating about using the US military to strike at 54 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: refugee boats somewhere off the coast of Mexico, outside of 55 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: America's territorial waters, but killing. 56 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 3: All of the all of the people on the boat. 57 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: So I know for sure right that Stephen Miller no 58 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: compunction whatsoever about killing those people, none, none, whatsoever. I 59 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: know that Trump had a hesitation about shooting the black 60 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: people in front of the White House. He didn't want 61 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: to use lethal force. He just wanted to shoot them 62 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: in the legs and the kneecaps, And that was the 63 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: question that he asked the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs 64 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: of Staff if the military could shoot them in the 65 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: leg My question is with Speaker Johnson, who said what 66 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: you said? 67 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 3: He said plus believes that. 68 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: People and dinosaurs were walking around with each other six 69 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Is he a fanatic? Is he a 70 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: terribly naive, will believe anything type of person. He just 71 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: can't distinguish what's real or not. Or is he a 72 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: genuinely fanatical theocratic character who with a pleasant demeanor, looks 73 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: and says, I believe everything that's in the Bible. That 74 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: guy would kill you in a millisecond, just like the 75 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: Taliban would for deviating from his theocratic line. My question is, 76 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: when you look at these people, how do you evaluate that? 77 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: Do you worry about it? Do you worry about that 78 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: this person, if they could, if they could, would lock 79 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: you up, would send you away, would take away your 80 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: property and possessions. How do you process these people in 81 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: this moment, in their danger. 82 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think on the one end, you have to 83 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: take their threats extremely seriously, And I go back to 84 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: your reference to Steven Miller, you know, I wrote a 85 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: book about a year ago called American Resistance, and I 86 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: talked to one hundred people in the Trump administration who 87 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: saw this up close and who said, you know, we 88 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: can't risk another Trump term. These include cabinet members. I 89 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: spoke to cabinet members who said he would bring up 90 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: ideas like that regularly. He regularly brought up the idea 91 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: of firing missiles at the caravans coming across Mexico, of 92 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 2: putting a moat at the southern border and filling it 93 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: with crocodiles, of bringing troops to the southern border and 94 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: having them shoot at people coming across the border. He 95 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: still to this day talks about using the Insurrection Act 96 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: to put people down. He says that he aspires to 97 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: having the power of foreign dictators who put their opponents 98 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: in jail or to death. And he's got people in 99 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: his small universe of Toady's Likeston, Miller, like Cash Patel, 100 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: other people who go out there who say, yeah, we're 101 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: going to arrest media critics, we're going to throw them 102 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: in jail, we're going to silence them. So you know, 103 00:08:53,679 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: I don't have to know whether they think that founded 104 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: in some kind of ethical ideology that you know, it's 105 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: impossible to fathom. But or whether they're they think that's 106 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: a line that appeals to the base. I don't have 107 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: to know whether they're insincere or not regarding their motives. 108 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: I know that in practice this is something that they 109 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: have tried to do. And I think the same is 110 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 2: true with Mike Johnson. I've talked to people who followed 111 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 2: him very closely on the Hill. They see him as, 112 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: you know, so fanatic that he makes, you know, Mike 113 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: Pence look like, you know, you know, you know, rational, 114 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 2: non sectarian kind of representative of the scientific community because 115 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: he does believe in the Flintstones version of you know, 116 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: of the world, you know, people in dinosaurs together at 117 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: the same time. But the other thing that he believes 118 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 2: is that gay people shouldn't be allowed to marry each other, 119 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: that gay sex is an abomination and it should be illegal, 120 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: that women shouldn't control their own bodies. And this again, 121 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 2: we don't have to know whether the people who say 122 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 2: these things are grounded in deep religiosity or whether they 123 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: are cynical politicians seeking to seize the moment. What we 124 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: know is that they're women whose lives are in jeopardy 125 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 2: in places like Texas, who can't get the healthcare they need, 126 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: who have to flee the state, and that it's not 127 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: just Texas, it's multiple states, and the number is growing 128 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 2: and growing. So they're translating these extreme ideologies like the 129 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: Taliban into the rule of law, and it's happening at 130 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: a stunning rate. Well, you know, I mean, I'd be 131 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: interested to know whether he is insincere or whether he's 132 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: as stupid as he appears to be, but I will 133 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: fear him whether he's sincere or not. 134 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: And that seems to me too, as always to have 135 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: always been the main point, which is that you have 136 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: to take these people literally and seriously, because there's only 137 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: a couple of ways that the republic falls, and a 138 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: couple of them have no possibility of happening. 139 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: In the United States. 140 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 1: We will never have a Colonel Kadafi type coup, right, 141 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: we will not have a junta of colonels. If our 142 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: democracy falls or is profoundly degraded, it will happen over 143 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: a successive series of elections, beginning in twenty twenty four, 144 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: with Donald Trump being elected with this plan conceived at 145 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,959 Speaker 1: the Claremont Institute and at the Heritage Foundation implemented which 146 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: really fundamentally disassembles the federal government, destroys the civil service, 147 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: cronyizes government at a moment in history when it is 148 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: far larger, more sophisticated than anything could have been conceived in. 149 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: The heyday of Tammany, for instance. 150 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: And so it will lead to a epic type of 151 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: corruption that is fully Banana Republicans as it as it 152 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: plays out. But why why do you think that the 153 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: alarm has not reached people as a general proposition in 154 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: the country in a way that hey, these guys keep 155 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: saying that they're going to do this if you vote 156 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: for them. And there has never been an instance ever, 157 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: never in human history where the people who said I'm 158 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: gonna lock you up, where I'm gonna deport millions of people, 159 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: where I'm going to open up camps to hold them in, 160 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: where they didn't do it. I mean one hundred percent 161 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: of the time that people who got elected on that 162 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: platform promising to take down the democracy along with it, 163 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, in his case, retribution and revenge. There's exactly 164 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: zero examples of people saying that that. 165 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 3: We're just saying it. 166 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: For shot, they all mean it, and there seems to 167 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: be an incapacity in the country to appreciate that the 168 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: person saying these things, who may be elected within a year, 169 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: means them very sincerely. 170 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: There's several factors. One factor dates back to Ronald Reagan. 171 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: It's the minimization of the importance of government. It's forty 172 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: years of hearing that government is the problem, not the solution, 173 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: and a lot of people out there, because they've heard this, 174 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: don't think it matters very much what happens in Washington, 175 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 2: don't take it as seriously as they should. Another factor 176 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: is ignorance. A lot of people either don't care to 177 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: know or they listen to information sources that describe the 178 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: world not as it is, but as as a bunch 179 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: of ideologues would like you to see it, And so 180 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: they're in this Fox News, you know, information system, and 181 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: so they don't have the truth at their disposal. There's 182 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: another group that's angry at the world and wants to 183 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 2: lash out and thinks that, you know, Trump and these 184 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: others are going to finally strike back at the elites 185 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: and the others who they resent because they're having they 186 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: think better lives than they are. And you know, I 187 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: think we could probably find some other explanations for this, including, 188 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: among evens jelicals, a desire that there is or a 189 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: sense that God wants them to pursue a particular past. 190 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: You know, that their particular religious beliefs say, even though 191 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: this man who is leading us is deeply flawed, if 192 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: he bans abortion, if he bans gay sex, if he 193 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: does the things that are align with our religious tenets, 194 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: that he is serving the mission of our God. And 195 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: so you've got when you take all these groups, tens 196 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: of millions of people, thirty percent of the US electorate, 197 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: maybe it's forty percent of the US electorate. And when 198 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: you have that, you know, you all of a sudden 199 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: become within striking distance of seizing power. And power itself 200 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: is an aphrodisiac. There are plenty of Republicans, plenty of 201 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: people you know who in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen said 202 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: that Trump. 203 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: He is dangerous, all of them. 204 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: But if he offers me a good enough job, I 205 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: can fix it. You know, let me into the government, 206 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: I'll you know, and they sort of went along with it, 207 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: you know, they validated it. One of the great shocking 208 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: stories I mean of the of the past ten years 209 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: is that the Republican establishment just sat on their hands. 210 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: You know, where was the Bush family in all of this? 211 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 2: You know, now you have Liz Cheney out there as 212 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: a voice and more power to her, but there was 213 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: this kind of well, let's you know, let's let's see 214 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: how this goes. And so all these forces together create 215 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: the kind of situation where you can have this guy 216 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: come in who has no ideology. He's a narcissist. All 217 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: he cares about is himself. He doesn't believe America should 218 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: be X or Y or Z. He doesn't care. He 219 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: believes America should serve his interests. He sees it through 220 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: the eyes of somebody who's deeply psychologically disturbed and sees 221 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: all of us as supporting characters in his movie. And that, 222 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of the most disturbing thing of 223 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: all because his worldview is so warped and his sense 224 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 2: of that the public of public service is so negligible 225 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 2: that he has no sense of obligation to the people. 226 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: He believes the people are obligated to him. 227 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: All of those things that you just said, I mean 228 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: are from my perspective, indisputably true and inarguable. Here's my question, 229 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: why why is he beating the Democrats right now? Why 230 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: why is he winning? And he is winning? If the 231 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: election were tomorrow, he would he would win the election. 232 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: Why is he winning? Why Why is this movement better organized, 233 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: better funded, and more dangerous today than it was on 234 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: January sixth and year view? And I think it's incontestable 235 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: that it is. 236 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think I think he's certainly very strong, and 237 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 2: I think we could have an interesting debate about whether 238 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 2: he's winning or he's competitive. But he's either within striking 239 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: distance of winning or he's winning, you know, I mean 240 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: so that this is this is a moot point, really, 241 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: because we've got to ask, given that all these things 242 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: are incontestable, how could that happen? And I think, you know, 243 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: you've got the support of these groups, You've got the 244 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: the weakness of the other leadership within the Republican Party 245 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: towards this. And I think there is a kind of 246 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: a almost a sense of inevitability that has settled in 247 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: over the Republican Party with regard to this race. And 248 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 2: and and you know, perhaps some of it has to 249 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: do with the fact that he's a nasty piece of 250 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 2: work and that he could win. And if he could win, 251 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: and he's a nasty piece of work, he can really 252 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: do some damage to the people who oppose him. And 253 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 2: I think there are some people who are just afraid. 254 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 2: I think some of it has to do with the 255 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: fact that Democrats have not come at him as strongly, 256 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: as regularly, in as targeted a way as they should now. 257 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: Part of that, I give credit to President Biden, right 258 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: he said, no, I'm going to govern, I'm going to 259 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 2: do a good job. I think ultimately that's going to work. 260 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: And if you talk to the people close to him, 261 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: they'll say it worked the first time he beat Trump. 262 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: The first time. You know, it gets him across the 263 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: line with certain swing groups of voters that will ultimately 264 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: lead him to prevail. Being a good president matters. And 265 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 2: while I think that may be true, and we've seen 266 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: Democrats outperform opinion polls for the past several years for 267 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 2: a variety of reasons that don't really have to do 268 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: directly with Trump or Biden, have to do with things 269 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: like Roe v. Wade, and that may continue. The stakes 270 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: are so high, the stakes are so high here that 271 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's it's it's critical that the campaign 272 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: against Trump, the double barreled campaign in every battleground state 273 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 2: to convince voters that they will lose democracy, that they 274 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: will lose fundamental rights, that they will not be able 275 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 2: to marry who they want, or buy a contraceptive or 276 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: have certain kinds of healthcare, or have the freedom to 277 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 2: listen to dissenting points of view, or perhaps ever again 278 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: participate in an election that's going to be brought home 279 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 2: in a way that it's not happening right now. And 280 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: and you know, to me, that's where the urgency is, 281 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 2: particularly in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin and Arizona and 282 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 2: New Mexico and Georgia and North Carolina and the states 283 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: that we would determine as battleground states because we've seen 284 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: what happened. We saw what happened in twenty sixteen. We 285 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: saw seventy thousand people be the difference between having a sensible, 286 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: effective president and having a lunatic as president. And we 287 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: also saw third party candidates back then, you know, I 288 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: mean in places like Michigan, Jill Stein got enough votes 289 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 2: that had they gone to Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump wouldn't 290 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: have been president, and we've got this phenomenon now where 291 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: you've got you know, Robert F. Kennedy, and you've got 292 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: Jill Stein, and you've got Cornell West, and you may 293 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: or may not have no labels. And that's you know, 294 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 2: those those those are really really frightening things, and they 295 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: require massive counter campaigns and not you know, in a 296 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,879 Speaker 2: long time. You know, we're recording this on in the 297 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: middle of December. In a month, the Iowa Caucuses are 298 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: going to happen. It's here, we're in the middle of this. 299 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: So when you go through that list of third party candidates, 300 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy right now is twenty five percent of the vote, 301 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: and Cornell West is at three to five. You put 302 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Jill Stein with two to three. You look at Joe 303 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 1: Manchin and if he were to run with a Republican 304 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: you look at Liz Cheney speculating about this. Let me 305 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: let me posit this and tell you what I think 306 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: that that may be. So eight years on, with Donald 307 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: Trump the dominant cultural figure, what we're seeing is almost 308 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: the ice cleaving from the glacier, if you will. We 309 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: are seeing the crackup of the two party system. The 310 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: Republican Party has utterly failed as an institution, and the 311 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: Democratic Party has failed to maintain its coalition and in 312 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: part has failed in that it hasn't completely repudiated or stopped, 313 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: or made the case to repudiate or stop, whoever you 314 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: want to process it. The mag of movement and what 315 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: we're seeing is the birth of kind of a multi 316 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: party coalition type democracy in a binary system that could 317 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: certainly accrue to elect an authoritarian candidate. Because the one 318 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: thing that no one's talking about is the reality that 319 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: with that many candidates, this becomes a thirty to forty 320 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: five state race, not a three state, seventy thousand vote race. 321 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: And two, you know, the delta between zero and three 322 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: hundred electoral votes and a multiple candidate race is the 323 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: delta between about thirty one and thirty nine percent of 324 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: the vote. And so it becomes an infinitely more complex 325 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: political campaign if you have more than two people that 326 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: are pulling up around that thirty percent mark, let alone 327 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: one to thirty percent, you know, and three or four 328 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: others in there that at that five percent mark. But 329 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: the Democrats don't get a vote right on the proposition, 330 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: if any of these people are gonna do it right, 331 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: they have a right to do it. You have to 332 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: be able to figure out how to win the election 333 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: right in that in that circumstance, And so I guess 334 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: my question, my question to you is that as we 335 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: kind of come into twenty twenty four, what do you 336 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: think that Biden needs to say to the country. Do 337 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: we need to see more of him during the week. 338 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: Does he need to be on Trump every day? Does 339 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: somebody need to be on him every day? 340 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 3: How do you see it? You know, I'm a I'm a. 341 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm a hardliner on this, I'm i hit. You know, 342 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: Trump needs to be engaged, uh, NonStop, every second of 343 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: every minute of every hour of every day until this 344 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: is over. 345 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: I'm with you one hundred percent. I will leave it 346 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: to political strategists to determine who should be out there, 347 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: but somebody needs to be out there in every one 348 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 2: of these states. I don't necessarily need Joe Biden to 349 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: be in Texas right now, but I do need to 350 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 2: see a bunch of women who are fearing for their 351 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 2: lives because they don't have the right to get the 352 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: healthcare they need. I do need to see other people 353 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: who are current or potential victims of the policies of 354 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, of the Republican Party, of the Mega movement 355 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: every day. And we live in a world where that 356 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 2: can mean videos on social media, can mean live events, 357 00:28:53,080 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 2: it can mean appearances on cable news channels, and it 358 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 2: should mean all of those things. So I'm with you. 359 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm not just an absolutist. I'm a maximalist. If there's 360 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: something we can be doing, we should be doing it. 361 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: And you know, in my sense, you know, this is 362 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: a one issue election. Do you want to continue to 363 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: have democracy in the United States of America? And I'll 364 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: tell you something, As somebody who writes a column, who's 365 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 2: on TV a couple of times a week, who goes 366 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: out and give talks and so forth, it has affected 367 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: how I behave. There are issues that I've got with 368 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: how the Biden administration behaves. I generally do not raise 369 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: them because I don't think that they can or should 370 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: be weakened in any way. You know, I, I, you know, 371 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: want to ensure that the message that people get. And 372 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: you may say, well, you know that's your thumb. Well, 373 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 2: I'm an opinion writer first of all, But secondly, the 374 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: stakes are too high. The stakes are far too high. 375 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: You know, and when I see people saying, well, you know, 376 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: he's got a bad policy in Gaza, and you know 377 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 2: that's going to lead to Muslim Americans not voting for him, 378 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: I'm like, somebody's got to be out there and saying, 379 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: are you kidding me? You're going to vote for the 380 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 2: guy who put in place the Muslim band. You're going 381 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: to vote for a guy who said he was going 382 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: to do it again. You're going to vote for somebody 383 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: who's fundamentally racist and wants to keep brown people out 384 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: of the United States. You're going to vote for the 385 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 2: guy who's supported by the MAGA Christians, you know, I mean, 386 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: you know, who want to impose a certain kind of 387 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: theocratic view in the United States. But but that's you know, 388 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: that goes to your point. Every angle time it is 389 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: possible to challenge him, he needs to be challenged. 390 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: Is there a method of challenging him that has not 391 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: been employed that should be. 392 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: I don't think he has challenged enough on on issues 393 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: of truth. 394 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: You know. I saw. 395 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: There's a little change, and I saw, you know, Ron 396 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: Johnson was un CNN the other day and afterwards Caitlin 397 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: Collins fact checked him real in a real hard way. 398 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: And you know, we've seen Trump get up and lie 399 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: in a lot of a lot of forums, televised forums, 400 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: town halls. I don't think he should ever be given 401 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: a live mic. You know, if you're going to do 402 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: an interview, do it on tape. 403 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 3: Fact check it. Put the fact checked up there. 404 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 4: You know. 405 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 2: I think I think that the fact that he's a 406 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 2: pathological liar and the fact that he's trying to lie 407 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 2: in order to get the votes of the American people, 408 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: that's something that needs to be called. 409 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: I I did a podcast the other day with Evan 410 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: Smith of the Texas Tribune, who I think is a 411 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: highly ethical, deeply serious, very thoughtful journalist and observer of 412 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: American life. 413 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 3: This moment. 414 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: The collapse of local news, and we're having this conversation. 415 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: And I grew up in Central New Jersey in the 416 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: news right such as it was. 417 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: It was. 418 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: It was turned the news on and what that meant 419 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: was Bill but Tellet Eyewitness Action News Channel seven. It 420 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 1: met Frank Reynolds. 421 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: You know, in my era. 422 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: Growing up on on on ABC News and that was 423 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: the news. And on the news were reports of significant 424 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: events that happened, and a couple times a year there 425 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: would be breaking news. And if there is breaking news, 426 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: there's so very serious it happened right that, had that occurred, 427 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, that was shattering. So I'm I'm thinking about 428 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: that right because this is anchored in how I grew 429 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: up in the world I grew up in, and the 430 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: news such as it is that comes across my feet 431 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: is that Alex Jones, VVK Ramaswami presidential candidate such as 432 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: he is, Andrew Tate, the accused sex offender and rapist 433 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: and really professional misogynists, and Elon Musk have all gathered 434 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: together on x to talk about who knows what. And 435 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: this is a few days after Ramaswamy talks about that 436 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: January sixth was perpetrated by the FBI, that nine to 437 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: eleven is an inside job committed by the government, not 438 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: by Al Qaeda, and then CNN has Ramaswamy on with 439 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Abby Phillips in primetime television, giving him an hour to 440 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: spew his nonsense. And my question is about the Trump 441 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: industrial complex as a whole, but billions of dollars that 442 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: have been made from the Trump Show over the last 443 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: eight years, is how do you contain that show? My 444 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: daughter goes to the University of Iowa, and she just 445 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: went to see Trump. And I ent her roommates and 446 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: I'm talking to them. None of them will vote for Trump. 447 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: But it was like going to the Dave Chappelle show, Right, 448 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 1: It was like going to see the Kardashians. 449 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 3: Right. 450 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: It was an event, it was fun, it was people 451 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: dressed up, it was a scene. And yet, as I 452 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: pointed out to her, what's being said there is acutely dangerous. 453 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 4: How do you address all that? How do you how 454 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 4: do you think about that? I think you have to 455 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 4: contain it. Yeah, I think you have to address it 456 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 4: head on. My wife has a theory that until the 457 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 4: Kardashians are gone, we will always have the risk of Trump. 458 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 4: And I think the point is that, you know, this, 459 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 4: this world of reality television from whence he came, blurs 460 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 4: the lines, and the lines get further blurred when you've 461 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:09,919 Speaker 4: got Elon Musk controlling Twitter and promoting conspiracy theories, when 462 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 4: you've got conspiracy theorists platform by CNN, when you've got 463 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 4: Fox News selling lies. The vast majority of Americans right 464 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 4: now do not see the world as it is. They 465 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 4: don't they see it through distortive lenses. Fun house mirrors. 466 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 4: It's not the reality that's actually going on out there, 467 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 4: and so we have to fight that at every turn, 468 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 4: you know. And frankly, we live in a moment where 469 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 4: you can't because everybody's got a social media platform. Everybody 470 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 4: reaches a group of people beyond themselves. Sometimes it's ten people, 471 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 4: sometimes it's via podcast, sometimes it's ten thousand people. There 472 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 4: are people who have platforms and they reach millions of people, 473 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 4: and we all those people can counter program. Everybody who 474 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 4: listens to your podcasts can counter program because via Facebook 475 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 4: or via Twitter, or via TikTok, or via Instagram or 476 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 4: via YouTube, they have the chance to go out and 477 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 4: reach out and amplify a message of how things really are. 478 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 3: You know. 479 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,919 Speaker 2: I I also grew up in central New Jersey, although 480 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 2: I like to consider it Northern New Jersey. I'm a 481 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: I'm kind of a purist, and I really think there's 482 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: North Jersey and South Jersey and never the Twains shirt meet, 483 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 2: you know. So that's why I resist the concept of 484 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: central New Jersey. 485 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:49,319 Speaker 1: But adopting adopting that, then then I would then I 486 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: would be. 487 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 3: In Northern Jersey. 488 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: What where where'd you grow up? North playing Field, nor well, 489 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: I grew up five minutes from there. I grew up 490 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: as a little kid in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey, which 491 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: was just across Route twenty two from where you were, 492 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: and then we moved to Summit when things started to 493 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 2: get good. My dad worked at Bellabs, right, and I 494 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 2: grew up in that same environment. And you had two 495 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: newspaper choices in the morning, the New York Times and 496 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: the New York Star Ledger, and that was it, and 497 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 2: there was a real focus on all the news that's 498 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: fit to print. I don't think we fully realized how 499 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: how altered our perception of the world is today from 500 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 2: what it was then from because we see it through 501 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: social media, because we see it in real time, with 502 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 2: real time reactions which are much more fueled by emotion 503 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 2: than they are by reflection or perspective. And you know, 504 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 2: I hate to sound like, you know, like some alta 505 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: concer who's like. 506 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, back in the old day, there was much better, 507 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 3: you know, but it was much better. But it was better. 508 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: It was better because there were fewer platforms, there were 509 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 2: more people fighting to have a space on those platforms, 510 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: so there were standards and right now, the vast majority 511 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 2: of what people see every single day is unfiltered bullshit. 512 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 2: And you know, if you live in an environment where 513 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: what you see is bullshit, what you read is bullshit, 514 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: what you're inhaling with every breath is bullshit, then between 515 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 2: your ears is going to be bullshit. 516 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: So a couple of years ago I went down to 517 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: one of these festivals. It was south By Southwest or 518 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: Texas Tribute, and I was on a panel and the 519 00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: panel was the six second sound By, and the proposition was, right, 520 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: how do you communicate in a world where, right, the 521 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: amount of information, right it's packaged, has decreased from a 522 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: minute thirty you know, to six seconds. And other people 523 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: on the panel were like, well, this is how you 524 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 1: do it, and I was the contrarian. Right, My point was, obviously, 525 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: you can't say anything in six seconds right. In fact, right, 526 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: it's less time than the attention span of a mouse. 527 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: And what it guarantees if our politics is structured around 528 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:42,800 Speaker 1: six seconds of nonsensical elocutions, is that the dumbest candidate 529 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: will win every time. The guy who says, build the wall, 530 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: Mexico will pay for it. You can say those things 531 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: in six seconds, right, You can't talk about complexity. 532 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 3: You can't talk. 533 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 1: About serious issues right in six seconds. 534 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 2: Right, it's and but that you know that it's compounded 535 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 2: by the other factor. And I know this now more 536 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 2: than I did before because now I have a company 537 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: that does podcasting and so forth. What drives the podcast, 538 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 2: what drives all of this down. Virality. Virality is the issue. 539 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,240 Speaker 2: And how do you achieve virality? You touch a nerve 540 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 2: you you know, But it's not just that you lose nuance, 541 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 2: it's that you have to inflame so vivid Ramaswami who's 542 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 2: a complaint lunatic who's completely incompetent, but occasionally he says 543 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 2: stuff that's so crazy that it goes viral and that 544 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,839 Speaker 2: gives him power. And so it's it's it's it's it's 545 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 2: not just it's not short and sweet. It's short and sick. 546 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 2: And and that's part of our problem. 547 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 3: Well, part of the problem too is the is the 548 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 3: lack of you know. 549 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: I think is the lack of reading in the society, right, 550 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: I mean, your reality is is that it was very 551 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,280 Speaker 1: much you know, compared to today's standards by numbers of college 552 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: graduates and people who are working, you know, not with 553 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: their hands, you know, we have a we have a 554 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 1: we have a population that's much more white collar than 555 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: it's ever been and much less literate than it's ever been, 556 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: you know, at the same time, and you just know, 557 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: look at old photographs right of people passively sitting anywhere 558 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: in any city on any given day. Everybody's reading something, right, 559 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: They're reading a newspaper, right, They're being informed by a common. 560 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 3: Point of facts. 561 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,439 Speaker 1: And you know, today, you know, there's a very very 562 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: very short attention span. People, you know, consume information in 563 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: a short bursts that don't necessarily have any context around them, 564 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: and you know, the result is the hollowing out of 565 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: meaning around the country that's founded on an idea, which 566 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: is an enormous strategic problem if you're trying to defend 567 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,240 Speaker 1: the efficacy of the idea. 568 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know it's compounded by other problems, 569 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 2: one of which is a lot of these media are interactive. 570 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 2: And that seemed like a really good idea. But you 571 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 2: may remember a few years ago, I mean, I was 572 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 2: running a magazine at the time, Form Policy Magazine, and 573 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, we go out, we get on the web, 574 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 2: and the first thing you think you're going to do is, well, 575 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 2: we'd like to get comments, and of course the comments 576 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: didn't just come from thoughtful commentators, they came from lunatics. 577 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 2: People started sort of hijacking the platform, and after a 578 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 2: while a lot of media started to say, well, no, 579 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,480 Speaker 2: we don't want to do that, because the comments actually 580 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,880 Speaker 2: devalued degrade the quality of the information as opposed to 581 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 2: elevating it, which one I hope that it would do. 582 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: But you know, Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, all of those other places, 583 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 2: they are interactive, and all of a sudden, everybody thinks 584 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,360 Speaker 2: that they've got to offer their opinion all the time. 585 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 2: You know, that they don't have to spend any time 586 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 2: forming their damn opinion. You know, I don't know what 587 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: it was like in North Plainfield, but in Berkeley Heights 588 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 2: or in Summit at ten o'clock at night, if you 589 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 2: walked into my living room, my mom was in one 590 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 2: chair reading a book and my dad was in another 591 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 2: chair reading a book or reading a magazine, and they 592 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 2: would spend you know, two hours of their night consuming 593 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 2: and you know, thinking and being left with their thoughts. 594 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 2: When does that happen? You know, constantly if people come 595 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 2: up to me and they say, you know, I do 596 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,359 Speaker 2: my best thinking in the shower, I go, you will, duh, 597 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 2: Because the average American spends seventeen hours pumping stuff electronically 598 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 2: into their brains, so it's all receptive and it's not reflective. 599 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,919 Speaker 2: And the only time you're left alone with your own 600 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 2: brain is in the shower. And so I think this 601 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 2: leads to kind of national punch drunkness. You know, we're 602 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,640 Speaker 2: like sitting there and there's constantly stuff going through and 603 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 2: we're responding, and our friends are responding, and we're like, well, 604 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 2: if I say this, are my friends going to say that? 605 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 2: And you know, how is this going to affect my 606 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:43,279 Speaker 2: social standing? And you know, you know it, the consumption 607 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 2: of information about our life as a polity, as a 608 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 2: as a society is hijacked by a constant set of 609 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 2: other stimuli and other criteria, and so we don't see 610 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 2: it the way it ought to be. And and you know, 611 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 2: if you're strong willed and intellectually disciplined, you can navigate 612 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 2: your way through that. But most people aren't. Most people 613 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 2: just want to get by, have a decent life, have 614 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 2: a beer, and not feel shitty at the end of 615 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:27,359 Speaker 2: the day. 616 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:35,840 Speaker 3: Let me ask you this, what is it that has. 617 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: Become so repellent with the Democratic Party's brand to so 618 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:53,279 Speaker 1: many working class Americans that not so long ago were 619 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: part of its base that it's even possible that this 620 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: MAGA co coalition, which I basically view as a coalition 621 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: of extremism and lassitude, right, that hovers just outside of 622 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: a majoritarian space between the between the two. But in 623 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 1: a in a in a sports league with two teams, 624 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,480 Speaker 1: which is what our system is, how how can the 625 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: Democratic Party team be losing to to these guys or 626 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: be in a position where it's possible to lose to 627 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: them eight years on? 628 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,279 Speaker 3: Well, but what is it? 629 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,600 Speaker 1: What is not being said that needs to be said 630 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:49,320 Speaker 1: from the from the from the reservoir, from the spirit, 631 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: from the war of the of the Democratic Party. That's lying, 632 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,840 Speaker 1: that's lying, dormant, that needs to be summoned. 633 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 2: Well, And I don't want to put all the blame 634 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 2: on the Democrats. We're not communicating well, which they don't 635 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,319 Speaker 2: and I'll get to that in a minute, but I 636 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,239 Speaker 2: would like to say that the first hand, in that 637 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 2: game in which there are two teams, you know, somebody 638 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 2: paid off the refs, so you know, over the course 639 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 2: of the past forty years, there has been this movement 640 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 2: among you know, group of moneyed people on the right 641 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 2: very intelligently to work state legislatures, work governors, gerrymander districts, 642 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 2: get judges put into place, you know, put their thumb 643 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 2: on the scale so that they think they could gain 644 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:55,480 Speaker 2: a certain degree of unfair advantage. Right now, this compounds 645 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,399 Speaker 2: the unfair advantage that they Red States were given when 646 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 2: the Constitute was written. Right, so we're at a moment 647 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 2: where effectively now but certainly in a couple of years, 648 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:13,720 Speaker 2: seventy members of the United States Senate will be elected 649 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,280 Speaker 2: by thirty percent of the voters in the United States. 650 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,120 Speaker 2: And so we have a system that gives disproportionate power 651 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 2: to the base of the Red States, and and and 652 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:27,799 Speaker 2: so that's. 653 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,760 Speaker 3: By consequence, though not by intent. 654 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 2: Well it was a different kind of intent, but it 655 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,760 Speaker 2: is where we are. Right, So, all of a sudden, 656 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 2: you've got this, you know, disproportionate power that accrues to 657 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 2: you if you live in a less populous state and 658 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,200 Speaker 2: you've got a bunch of legislatures and other things that 659 00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,680 Speaker 2: have gerrymandered and put in place, you know, like the 660 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 2: judges that we have now in the fifth circuit and 661 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 2: so forth that tend to tip the scales in the 662 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,959 Speaker 2: favor of the of the Republican Party when there comes 663 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,760 Speaker 2: to be a contest. And I think it's important to remember, 664 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,000 Speaker 2: whatever it is, seven out of the last state presidential elections, 665 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,319 Speaker 2: Democrats have won the majority of the vote. Democrats are 666 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,960 Speaker 2: the majority. It's not that it's not that their message 667 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 2: is so unappealing that they're a tiny minority. Their message 668 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,480 Speaker 2: is appealing enough that they're the majority. They're not a 669 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 2: majority in the places you need to be a majority 670 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:39,000 Speaker 2: in order to win in our system. And that's, you know, 671 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 2: the critical issue. And when you look at those places, 672 00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 2: those swing states, those purple states, then you get into 673 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,759 Speaker 2: this issue of the Democratic message, and part of it's 674 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,239 Speaker 2: impossible to overcome because I think we have to be 675 00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 2: honest with ourselves. The Democratic Party is associated with urban areas, 676 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:07,839 Speaker 2: with diversity, with people of color, and there's a lot 677 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:12,080 Speaker 2: of racism in the Republican impulse and message. They're repelled 678 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 2: by that. They're frightened. They know they've heard twenty forty 679 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 2: three the majority of Americans will be people who we 680 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 2: once called minorities. This period of white male domination of 681 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 2: our political system is over.