1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to American Shadows, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Bankey. New York 3 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: City can be a harsh place during the winter. In 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: January of the residents complained bitterly about the relentless blizzards 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: and ice. To combat the weather, the mayor hired snow fighters, 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: men who worked in shifts to keep the streets shoveled. 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: Snow fell quicker than the men could shovel, though, and 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: the freezing sleep that followed made travel hazardous, if not lethal. 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: News about the war hadn't helped moral Typhoid Mary Mallon 10 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: had recently broken quarantine to resume work as a cook, 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: causing outbreaks across the city, and as bad as all 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: that sounds, things were about to get worse. Fred Rick 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: Moores walked into the police station and calmly announced he 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: had just murdered eight people. At first, the officers thought 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: that misunderstood him. Frederick Moore's wasn't his birth name. He 16 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: told them he had changed it from Karl Manerick, but 17 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: he chose Moore's because he liked the Latin phrase momento mori, 18 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: which means remember you will die. He chose Frederick for 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: its root words meaning peace and ruler. Moors told them 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: he was a medical man, or at least that that 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: was what he wanted to be. He had found a 22 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: job at the German odd Fellows home for the elderly 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: and yonkers, where he earned eighteen dollars a month, plus 24 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: room and board in exchange for helping to care for 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: the three fifty residents as a nurse. The job offered 26 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: him the chance to practice medicine in peace. Although he 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: worked as a nurse, he insisted the residents call him 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: hair doctor. At this point police called in a translator, 29 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: uncertain this man, who was admitting to murder and calling 30 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: himself a doctor and peaceful ruler of death had a 31 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: language barrier. It all sounded bizarre. The translator assured them 32 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: they had heard correctly. Moores explained that he had wandered 33 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: the halls wearing a white coat and stethoscope. The superintendent 34 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: had asked him to hurry along with the deaths of 35 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: the home sickest and most costly patients, a task Moore's 36 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: felt was beneficial. The patients were old, and he believed 37 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: it was kinder to kill them than let them linger. 38 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: While he had initially decided on arsenic, he found that 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: death was messy. The victim suffered for several days, becoming 40 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: violently sick. In the meantime, after spending days cleaning up 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: after the arsenic victim, chloroform became his poison of choice. 42 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: In his own words, using the drug on the elderly 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: was like putting a child to sleep. The police investigated 44 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: the nursing home residence, and staff alike told them they 45 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: didn't like or trust Mores. He had a short temper, 46 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: and any resident not on his good side died shortly 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: after any disagreement. One employee stated he had walked in 48 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: on Moore's and the superintendent as they stood over a body. 49 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: When he asked why the room smelled oddly sweet. The 50 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: superintendent lit a cigar and Moore's opened a window. Neither 51 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: man answered the original question. While prosecutors had a confession 52 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: and testimony, it wouldn't be enough to convict Moore's or 53 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: the superintendent. Patrick Reardon, the city's corner, insisted that testing 54 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: for chloroform was impossible. The other corners and medical professionals disagreed. 55 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: Reardon refused to exhume any of the bodies, and without testing. 56 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: The district attorney didn't have a case with at least 57 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: a confession in hand. Moore's was admitted to Bellevue for 58 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: psychiatric evaluation. From there, he was moved to the Hudson 59 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: River State Hospital for the Insane. The district attorney felt 60 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: at least Moors would never be free to harm anyone again, 61 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: until the day that Mores walked out the front doors, 62 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: never to be seen again. I'm Lauren Vogelbond. Welcome to 63 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: American Shadows. The scandal hit New York City in nineteen 64 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: fift A local political organization, Tammany Hall, had long been 65 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: a source of widespread corruption, from rigging elections to placing 66 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: certain people in unelected positions. New Yorkers weren't particularly surprised 67 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: when the story hit the papers. Of all the job 68 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: positions crooked politicians negotiated and promised corner didn't immediately come 69 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: to mind. Yet there was money to be made in 70 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: the recently deceased, and in certain investigations it paid to 71 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: have autopsy results show certain outpumps. The city paid out 72 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: over a hundred and seventy two thousand dollars a year 73 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: to its corners and their assistants. Im many not only 74 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: drew a nice salary, but they also earned commissions. Hiring 75 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: corrupt staff who performed certain favors came with an additional cost. 76 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: Taxpayers of corners often build the city twice for the 77 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: same body, and few corners were as corrupt as Patrick Reardon. 78 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: He had once been a doctor, but lost his license 79 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: for frequently being too drunk to practice medicine. Lucky for him, 80 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: the dead rarely complained. That didn't mean that journalists, the 81 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: d A, and city commissioner weren't wise to Reardon's antics, 82 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: though he had been the reason More's and the superintendent 83 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: at the local nursing home had gotten away with multiple murders. 84 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: Reardon had a habit of showing up to tragic accidents 85 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: so drunk that he needed his assistant to hold him upright. 86 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: Such was the case on December eighth of nineteen fifteen, 87 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: when a train slammed into the back of another car 88 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 1: waiting at the station on one sixteen. When Reardon saw 89 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: the bodies, he made a single comment that the names 90 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: of the deceased were hardly distinguished enough to warrant anyone 91 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: coming out on such a miserable night. City Commissioner Leonard 92 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: Walstein was at the time the bane of Tammany Hall's existence. 93 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: He released a lengthy report on the state of the 94 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: city's coroner's office, particularly reared him. He pushed for reform 95 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: that would require a qualified and licensed doctor to head 96 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: up the coroner's office. Unfortunately, nothing changed, reared In remained 97 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: in charge. Walstein worked with local journalists to raise the 98 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: alarm again, this time printing a story that drew national attention. 99 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: They alleged that reared In had performed illegal autopsies since 100 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: he wasn't really licensed. To stop the embarrassment, the governor 101 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: insisted that rear didn't be fired and that a qualified 102 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: corner be placed in the job instead. In a childish 103 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: fit of anger, Mayor John Highland made sure the most 104 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: qualified candidate did not get the job. Instead, he hired 105 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: the second most qualified in the hopes that the new 106 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: corner would fail. The mayor soon regretted his decision. Doctor 107 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: Charles Norris had been educated at Columbia and Yale. His 108 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: father was a merchant banker, and his maternal grandfather had 109 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: been the president of the Bank of Commerce. The family 110 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: had a history of being hard working and patriotic traits 111 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: Norris inherited. He was a large and cheerful man with 112 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: an oversized mustache and a lively sense of humor. He 113 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: did need that sense of humor. While the mayor remained 114 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: determined to keep corruption front and center, Norris cleaned house. 115 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: As the new chief corner. He hired an exceptionally talented 116 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: chemist from Columbia University named Alexander Getler, and a brilliant 117 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:48,119 Speaker 1: doctor from Harlem, Thomas Gonzalez. Together they whipped the Medical 118 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: Examiner's office into proper shape. Unhappy that the men had 119 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: made such progress, high him slashed the budget. Undeterred, Norris 120 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: fought for better pay and working conditions for his staff. 121 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: He also insisted on proper procedures and the use of 122 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: standard scientific investigations. Norris tasked the chemist Getler with inventing 123 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: new tests for elusive poisons, a challenge that the new 124 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: chief toxicologists settled into with ease. Outwardly professional, to the 125 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: point that one journalist labeled him as interesting as table salt, 126 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: Getler was anything but highly competitive and outbowing. He had 127 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: an unquenchable love of chemistry. Like his boss, Norris, Getler 128 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: had a strong work ethic. Unlike his boss, Getler, the 129 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: son of poor Jewish Hungarian immigrants, didn't have family money. 130 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: He had worked hard to put himself through college. Outside 131 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: of his job, he spent his time at ballgames, bowling, 132 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: and cards. Both men were well aware of the Medical 133 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: examiner offices corrupt history, and that the mayor had it 134 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: out for them. The public also had a distrust of 135 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: the office and the science behind it. Even though the 136 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: men had come from opposite social and economic circumstances, they 137 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: were in step with each other and had great plans 138 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 1: for the future of criminal science and pathology. Norris and 139 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Getler not only began building an efficient and effective office, 140 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: they carved out their reputations in a new field, forensic medicine. 141 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: Though Getler was dedicated to his job, the mayor's budget 142 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: cuts meant he had to work outside the department to 143 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: pay the bills. He alternated between teaching as an associate 144 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: professor at New York University and as a chemical pathologist 145 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: at both Bellevue and Allied Hospitals. Though it would have 146 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: been easier to accept bribes, Getler's moral compass was as 147 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: strong as his work ethic. A confident in his skill 148 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: set and his labs equipment. Getler refused to alter his 149 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: testimony or his chemical analysis. However, by in nine three, 150 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: one woman would cause him to doubt himself. Mary Frances 151 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: had dark hair, expressive eyes, and a rosy complexion. She 152 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: married John Crichton in nineteen nineteen when she was twenty one. 153 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: The newlyweds quickly moved into his family home, a large 154 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: two story house in Newark, New Jersey. Mary had grown 155 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: up poor, while John, the son of a prominent Pennsylvania 156 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: Railroad Company executive, was accustomed to the finer things in life. 157 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: Neighbors had always liked the elder Creton's, but they didn't 158 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: think much of their son's new bride. Mary didn't get 159 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: along with a lot of people, including her siblings, with 160 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: whom she had fought over their parents maker will. She 161 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: wasn't social. The couple had no friends to speak of, 162 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: and Mary had never gotten along with her in laws. 163 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: Neighbors often heard Mary fighting bitterly with her mother in law, 164 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: in particular. In nineteen twenty, John and Mary had their 165 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: first child, Ruth. That same year, the elder Missus Crichton 166 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: died of food poisoning. A year later, Mary's father in 167 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: law died of a sudden heart ailment. John didn't have 168 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: any siblings, and the couple inherited everything. Three years later, 169 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: they welcomed an infant's son, John Junior. Neighbors had noticed 170 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: a shift over the past couple of years. Mary, who 171 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: had never been friendly, was now downright rude and combative, 172 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: and she complained about everything, well, everything except when her 173 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: eighteen year old brother, Raymond, came for a weekend to visit. 174 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: Mary convinced him to stay longer, and even found him 175 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: a job in a local store, sweeping floors and stalking shelves. 176 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: In April of that year, Raymond went to a doctor 177 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: complaining about a dull egg in his abdomen, having a 178 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: constant thirst and a dried out tongue. Thinking the young 179 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: man had an infection, the doctor prescribed a tonic. A 180 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: week later, Raymond returned with additional symptoms, a sore throat 181 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: and nausea. On the twentieth, he suffered a seizure. When 182 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: the doctor arrived, Raymond was shaking violently and vomiting uncontrollably. 183 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: Within minutes, he was dead. The doctor didn't understand what 184 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: had happened, but thought perhaps had died of a severe 185 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: case of gastro enteritis. Not long after Raymond's death, a 186 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: letter showed up at the local police station calling out 187 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: the unusual deaths of the Crichton house, starting with Raymond. 188 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: The anonymous sender stated that Mary was a killer and 189 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: that the detectives should investigate. While it certainly didn't constitute proof, 190 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: the letter convinced detectives to talk with Raymond's doctor, who 191 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: by now had also had second thoughts about the cause 192 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: of death and about Mary's involvement. He remembered Raymond complaining 193 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: about his sister's insistence that he eat chocolate pudding every day. 194 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: The owner of the store Raymond worked at had seen 195 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: Mary show up at the store if Raymond forgot to 196 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: eat his pudding and made him eat it before she left. 197 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: Believing Mary might have poisoned the chocolate pudding, detectives searched 198 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: the house. They found a bottle of Fowler's tonic, which 199 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: promised translucent skin with its rich arsenic formula, and they 200 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: arrested Mary on the spot. The coroner's office ordered Raymond's 201 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: body exhumed for a more thorough autopsy. Meanwhile, John and 202 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: Mary hired James McCarthy, the best defense attorney in the state. 203 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: The lawyer told the press that the critons had been 204 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: in shock at Raymond's passing. McCarthy suggested that Raymond must 205 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: have taken Fowler's tonnic himself. He presented a strong pace 206 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: of how readily available arsenic was to the public. It 207 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: was impractically any store. When the jury returned a not 208 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: guilty verdict, a journalist noted Mary's quick smile before collapsing 209 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: into her husband's arms. Though acquitted of murdering her brother, 210 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: detectives arrested Mary once more, this time for the death 211 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: of her in laws. The pace drew so many onlookers 212 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: that pathologists had to perform the autopsy's grave side. While 213 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: the older Mr Crichton showed no signs of arsenic poisoning, 214 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: his wife Annie did. A nurse testified that Mary adamantly 215 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: served her mother in law hot chocolate every day, and 216 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: McCarthy called in Alexander Getler as well as other prominent pathologists. 217 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: Getler determined the levels of arsenic were too small to 218 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: have caused Annie Cretton's death. Instead, he found traces of 219 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: bismuth and a prescription of Annie's He told the court 220 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: that she had probably died from mixing medications, not from 221 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: arsenic poisoning itself. Mary Francis grinned at the prosecution as 222 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: she walked out of the courtroom, a free woman once again. 223 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: Charles Norris was tired. Ten years of running the department 224 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: and fighting corrupt politicians had taken its toll on the 225 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: usually cheerful chief corner. He had fought against ignorance and 226 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: corruption for so long that the murders, poisonings, and other 227 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: deaths practically ran together. Had also poured a considerable amount 228 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: of his own money into the department for equipment, and 229 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: what he got for his efforts was an accusation of embezzlement. 230 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: The new mayor, LaGuardia, believed that all mayors who had 231 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: come before him and their employees must be corrupt. Though 232 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: a thorough investigation showed the coroner had put money into 233 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: the department instead of taking it out, the accusations took 234 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: poll on Norris. Even after returning from a long overdue vacation, 235 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: he had little of his old energy. On September eleven five, 236 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: he died in his bed rule heart failure. Friends and 237 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: family said he had worked himself to death, Thomas Gonzalez 238 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,359 Speaker 1: took over the office. Getler stayed on as the chief toxicologist, 239 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: and life went on. Two weeks later, a case came 240 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: into the office. Thirty six year old housewife Ada Applegate 241 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: had died after a bout of vomiting and stomach pain. 242 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: Her doctor had initially thought she had a gallbladder attack 243 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: and had hospitalized her. She got better until she returned home. 244 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: A few days later. Her husband, Everett, called the doctor again. 245 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: By the time he arrived, Ada was already dead. The 246 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: doctor's notes about the manner of death were one thing, 247 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: but there was a name connected to the case that 248 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: grabbed Getler's attention, Mary Francis Crichton. As it turned out, 249 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: the Applegates had moved in with the Creton's after both 250 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: sides had fallen on hard times during the depression. Twelve 251 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: years had passed. Ruth was now fifteen and John Jr. 252 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: Was twelve. Unease and guilt washed over him. A certain 253 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: Mary had gotten away with murder before. He wasn't about 254 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: to let her get away with it again. Getler notified 255 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: the police. The detectives ran into a snag, though Ada's 256 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: husband refused to allow the medical examiner's office to exhume 257 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: her body. When they told him that in cases where 258 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: they suspected homicide, they'd get permission with or without him, 259 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: he finally relented. Getler found that AIDA's organs were full 260 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: of arsenip three times the lethal dose. Given Mary's past 261 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: and Everett's reluctance to exume his wife's body, the two 262 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: were arrested for murder. Detectives suspected an affair between the 263 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: pair and questioned them separately. Everett laughed them off. He 264 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: told them Mary hadn't aged well. He described her as 265 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: having a frog like appearance in a mean streak a 266 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: mile wide. He told them to ask anyone in the 267 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: neighborhood about her. Still positive that something was going on, 268 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 1: the detectives dug deeper and discovered that there was an 269 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: affair and they had just had the wrong partner. Thirty 270 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: six year old Everett had been sleeping with fifteen year 271 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: old Ruth, and when the trial began in mid January 272 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: of ninety six, he testified that his wife knew everything 273 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: and stood in the way of him marrying Ruth. They 274 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: had been fighting over his relationship with Ruth one day 275 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: when he slapped his wife, Ada threatened to expose his secret, 276 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: angry had knocked her to the ground. The only one 277 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 1: in the house who hadn't known about the relationship was John. 278 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: He worked so much that he was rarely home. Mary 279 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: admitted that the house had become too crowded, Thinking her 280 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: daughter would move out if married, she strongly encouraged her 281 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: daughter to sleep with Everett and tracked her menstrual cycle 282 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: to prevent pregnancy. Everett told the court that as bad 283 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: as it looked, it had been Mary Francis who suggested murdering. 284 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: Ada had even driven her to the store to buy 285 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: rat poison. Mary said that while she had bought arsenic, 286 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: she had done so at Everett's request and hadn't given 287 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: another thought until detectives questioned her. She also insisted that 288 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: while she had fed Ada milk and eggs, Everett had 289 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: handed her some powder to mix in with them. She 290 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: told the court she had no idea it was rat poison. 291 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: The jury didn't buy the blame game and deflections and 292 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: found them both guilty. The court scheduled Everett and Mary 293 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: to both die in the electric chair. Underly. Everett insisted 294 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: he was innocent to the very end. Mary didn't handle 295 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: it quite as calmly, and she claimed she could no 296 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: longer walk and had to be wheeled in. She clutched 297 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: a rosary tightly in her hand, saying she had recently 298 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: found religion and had prayed to God to help her. 299 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: As the current course threw her, the rosary beads flew 300 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: from her hands and scattered on the floor. Arsenic had 301 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: been what pathologists called a first time poisoner's choice for 302 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: a reason availability. In fact, death by arsenic had been 303 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: incredibly common for a very long time. The French even 304 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: had a nickname for it. The in Barton's Powder Arsmith 305 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: was everywhere. It's green tint went into dies for wallpaper 306 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: and cloth, and every store sold rat bait and pest 307 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: control laced with arsenic. It could be found in creams, ointments, 308 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: and medications. However, it had a drawback being metallic in nature, 309 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: it was easy to trace in the human body. The 310 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: first tests for arstic poisoning were developed in eighteen thirty 311 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: and only grew more reliable over time. So why did 312 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: first time murderers use a poison that could be traced 313 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: so easily. Arsenic manics symptoms of several long term illnesses fatigue, nausea, cramps, dizziness, 314 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: and disorientation, to name a few. This left many poisonings undetected, 315 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: at least at first. The problem was that murderers often 316 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: returned to using whatever worked for them in the past. 317 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 1: Getler suffered extreme guilt. After seeing Mary's name and AIDA's 318 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: death report, detectives launched a second investigation into the murder 319 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: of Annie Crichton. Getler was relieved when further tests showed 320 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: no signs of chemical poisoning, but the investigation did uncover 321 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: that Mary had poisoned and killed someone else before her brother. 322 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: When confronted with the evidence before her execution, Mary admitted 323 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: to the crime, stating she was surprised she had gotten 324 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: away with it. She hadn't used the Fowler's tonic the 325 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: police had found, She had left that as a decoy. Instead, 326 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: she had purchased the pesticide rough on rats, the very 327 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: same poison she had bought to kill Ada Applegate. When 328 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: she had finished, she smuggled the wrappings out of the 329 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: house and disposed of them elsewhere. When asked why she 330 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: had killed her brother, Mary smiled and said it was 331 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: for the insurance money. Roughly a thousand dollars frustratingly, though 332 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: at least for her, her legal fees had taken most 333 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: of it. It's clear that Mary had fooled people before 334 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 1: and believed she could do it again. But she hadn't 335 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: planned on Getler looking into the poisoning after the last 336 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: trial ended, and she certainly didn't know the effort Norris 337 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: and the team had put into furthering forensic science, and 338 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: all of that ended up foiling her plans. They had 339 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: presented enough evidence and conducted their testing so professionally that 340 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: Mary didn't stand a chance of slipping through their net. 341 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: The case against her was air tight. There's more to 342 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: this story. Stick around after this brief sponsor break to 343 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: hear all about it. Their courtship spanned eight years. Charles 344 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Webb tried to get Gertrude Gorman to commit, but forty 345 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: year old Gertie had never been able to make decisions 346 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: regarding her life. The only daughter of a very wealthy 347 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: widow from an even wealthier family, Gertie's relatives weren't keen 348 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: on Charles. While she found the fifty year old quiet 349 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: and soft spoken, they remained suspicious about his motives. It 350 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a secret that Gertie's mother was terminally ill. After all, Ever, 351 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: the dutiful daughter, Gertie stayed by her mother's side until 352 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: she passed away. In Then, without her mother to care for, 353 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: Gertie and Charles spent more time together. Two years later, 354 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: they finally wed, and Charles promptly moved into the Madison 355 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: Avenue home Gertie had shared with her mother, much to 356 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 1: the dismay of the rest of the family. The newlyweds 357 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: took a series of short and elaborate vacations together and 358 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: visited friends for ten straight months. It looked like pure 359 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: wetted bliss, but by September of n Gertie was dead. 360 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: Her uncle, William T. Hunter immediately called a press conference. 361 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: He stood in his garden surrounded by reporters. He was 362 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: suspicious of his niece's death and subtly hinted that her 363 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: husband might have had something to do with it. Careful 364 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: not to accuse Earl's outright, he mentioned his niece had 365 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: died from poison by chloride of mercury, white crystalline and 366 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: highly poisonous salt derived from mercury and chlorine. Mercury wasn't 367 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: all that hard to come by. It had been used 368 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: as a cure for all sorts of ailments, though mostly 369 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: as a treatment for syphilis, But when it came to mercury, 370 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: it was common knowledge that the cure could be deadlier 371 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: than the disease months or years later. Mercury exposure often 372 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: caused a variety of cancers. Mercury salt poisoning was easier 373 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: and faster than the slippery liquid counterpart. The substance was 374 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 1: so corrosive that it could burn through mouth and stomach tissue, 375 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: loosening teeth and causing bleeding ulcers. Hunter told the press 376 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: that Gertie's marriage had taken everyone in the family by surprise. 377 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: No one had expected her to marry and thought she'd 378 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 1: spend the rest of her life devoted to family. Her 379 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 1: husband had come from nothing and had been well aware 380 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: of the family fortune approximately two million dollars, which would 381 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: amount to some twenty five million today. The family insisted 382 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: on sending the autopsy report and further tissue sampling to 383 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: New York City and Alexander Getler for further tests. Meanwhile, 384 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: the press dug into the story. Gertie's family weren't the 385 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: only one suspicious of Charles. The trouble had started in 386 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: August of when Gurdie and Charles vacation at the Westchester 387 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: Country Club. The resort boasted grand hotels, spas, a golf course, 388 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: and other amenities catering to the rich. It wasn't Gertie's 389 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: favorite spot, but Charles had talked her into it. That week, 390 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: Gertie fell ill, complaining of a pain in her side 391 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: and shortness of breath. Charles called for a doctor, who 392 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: diagnosed her with mild pneumonia. Dr Meyer had come highly 393 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: recommended by his wealthy clientele. Meyer also like to say 394 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: he was an amateur detective, and in this case he 395 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: instantly thought something was awry. Nothing he described worked, and 396 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: Gertie only grew sicker, developing a waxy complexion. Thinking the 397 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: illness was unnatural, he borrowed Charles from seeing his wife 398 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: without explaining why. The next time Charles saw his wife, 399 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: she was dead. While the press dug into the story 400 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: behind Gertie's death, Getler was busy in the lab he 401 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: found traces of mercury and her kidneys. Between the death 402 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: of his wife and the discovery of poison in her autopsy, 403 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: Charles Webb was having a really bad time, and it 404 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: was about to get worse. The family pointed to Gertie's 405 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: recently updated will, which left everything down to her last 406 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: possession and penny to her husband. Charles and his attorneys 407 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: showed there was another will at Charles had insisted that 408 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: he not inherit everything, but sadly she had been too 409 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: ill to sign it. After a battery of tests, Getler 410 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: determined that Charles hadn't killed his wife. What he did 411 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: find was plenty of pneumonia in her lungs and disease 412 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: to kidneys stemming from laxative prescribed to her by Manhattan doctor, 413 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: and the prescription contained a milder form of mercury salt, 414 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: but still enough to kill her. On October one, the 415 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: Westchester Grand Jury examined the evidence Getler provided and determined 416 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: Charles was innocent. This time, Getler slept at night, knowing 417 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 1: he had saved an innocent man. Gertie's family insisted that 418 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: Charles still owed them his wife's inheritance. Instead, Charles used 419 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: some of the money to uphold his wife's wishes, establishing 420 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: a park in honor of Guardie's mother, though he added 421 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: his wife's name to the Park as well, and then 422 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: Charles cut ties with Gertie's family and lived out his 423 00:27:44,520 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 1: days in peace. M M American Shadows is hosted by 424 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: Lauren Vogelbaum. This episode was written by Michelle Muto, researched 425 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: by Ali Steed, and produced by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, 426 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: with executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. 427 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: To learn more about the show, visit GRIM and MIL 428 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: dot com. From more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the 429 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.