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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi Bad Women Listeners is Alice again. The stories

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Speaker 1: we cover in this season of Bad Women take place

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Speaker 1: against the backdrop of World War Two, and lots of

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Speaker 1: them come as news even to acknowledged experts in the field.

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Speaker 1: Halle and Professor Julia Late, who you'll have heard in

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Speaker 1: lots of episodes of the series, sat down with historian

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Speaker 1: James Holland to discuss them for his World War two

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Speaker 1: podcast We have Ways of making you talk. We thought

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Speaker 1: you might like to hear their conversation, so here it is.

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Speaker 2: Acting Acton. Welcome to we have Ways to make you

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Speaker 2: talk with me James Holland. And today we've got two

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Speaker 2: very special guests. We've got Halle Rubenholt and Professor Julia Late.

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Speaker 2: And Halle needs little introduction to, of course, is the

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Speaker 2: award winning best selling author of five about the Ripper Victims.

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Speaker 2: And Julia you are professor at the History and Archaeology

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Speaker 2: Department at Bubak University and an expert in prostitution that

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Speaker 2: aspect of women's lives. And you've just started a new

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Speaker 2: podcast series, Haven't You, which is The Blackout Ripper produced

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Speaker 2: by Pushkin Productions, and you also called it so the

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Speaker 2: title is also subtitle. Well, the main title is bad Women,

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Speaker 2: isn't it? And then colon the blackout Ripper? So why

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Speaker 2: bad women? Because I kind of thought women were supposed

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Speaker 2: to be the good ones in this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's kind of an ironic title. So the

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Speaker 3: first season was off the back of my book The Five,

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Speaker 3: which was about the five victims of Jack the Ripper

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Speaker 3: and looking at their lives and looking at how women

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Speaker 3: historically have been demonized for crimes that were perpetrated against them.

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Speaker 3: So they were victim blamed. And so if a woman

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Speaker 3: straight off the path of virtue, if she wasn't a

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Speaker 3: perfect wife, perfect mother, perfect daughter, she didn't do what

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Speaker 3: women were supposed to do during that time, she was

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Speaker 3: called a bad woman. And that's often how we have

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Speaker 3: remembered them historically, and especially in true crime, that's how

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Speaker 3: women are often remembered. So we're kind of turning this

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Speaker 3: idea of bad women on its head.

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Speaker 2: And in this reale, Well that you did that brilliantly

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Speaker 2: with five, didn't you. I mean? And that was sort

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Speaker 2: of the whole point, was to turn these people that

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Speaker 2: had always just been the victims and turning them back

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Speaker 2: into kind of flesh and blood and real people again.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and you know, and I think history really

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Speaker 3: deserves that sort of treatment. You know, the people who

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Speaker 3: have been demonized the most deserve really the most examination,

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Speaker 3: and we need to ask, well, why have these people

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Speaker 3: been demonized and what else can we said about them?

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Speaker 3: And how can we help to understand their story in

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Speaker 3: another context. And that's what we're doing with this second

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Speaker 3: season of the podcast, which is set in London during

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Speaker 3: the Blitz in February nineteen forty two.

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Speaker 2: Right, and Juda, just before we get into the d

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Speaker 2: you know, into kind of that's that sort of dark story,

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Speaker 2: both actual and metaphoric. I mean, how did you two

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Speaker 2: get together and how do you know each other?

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Speaker 4: Hallie and I actually got to know each other being interviewed,

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Speaker 4: I believe for a BBC radio show about sexual labor,

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Speaker 4: and we both realized that we had very similar opinions

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Speaker 4: about its place in history, about the importance of it

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Speaker 4: as a social phenomenon, and about the women involved.

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Speaker 2: But tell me how many how did you get drawn

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Speaker 2: into this subject in the first place.

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Speaker 4: I got drawn in probably by thinking about all the

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Speaker 4: different depictions of prostitution in Victorian Britain. So That's where

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Speaker 4: I got started thinking about the role of the quote

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Speaker 4: unquote prostitute in Victorian popular culture and how that image

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Speaker 4: got recycled in the histories that followed. Sure, and so

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Speaker 4: I started thinking about, you know, what was the real

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Speaker 4: experience of women who sold sex in this period? And

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Speaker 4: then I started working on it, and I realized that

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Speaker 4: there was a story to be told going from the

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Speaker 4: late Victorian period when they first started cracking down on prostitution,

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Speaker 4: going right up to just pass the Second World War,

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Speaker 4: when the modern laws that we live with today were passed.

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Speaker 2: Right. Well, I mean, obviously Second World War is very

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Speaker 2: much my field, and the kind of the backdrop to

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Speaker 2: this podcast. I mean, it's interesting because I'm I'm doing

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Speaker 2: some work on the Italian campaign at the moment, and

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Speaker 2: the levels of prostitution are jaw dropping, really awful. And

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Speaker 2: I've come across this account by the medical the chief

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Speaker 2: medical Officer of the US fifth Army, writing in the

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Speaker 2: middle of nineteen forty four, and he says, says, our

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Speaker 2: estimation is the fifty percent of all available women have

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Speaker 2: VD fifty percent of all available women. But so what

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Speaker 2: what's that? That's sort of sixteen to sixty let's say.

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Speaker 4: There's so much to unpack there.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely promised you were going to get onto the

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Speaker 2: blackout Ripper. But but but you know, while I've got you,

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's I mean, that's some statistic, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: And of course, you know, a lot of the Italian

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Speaker 2: blokes are away, they're ever in prison of war, they've

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Speaker 2: they've ended up in Germany as effactory slave labor of

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Speaker 2: the of the Germans, or they're dead or wounded or whatever.

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Speaker 2: So there's not many men around. There's rabid inflation, there's

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Speaker 2: huge black markets going on, and you know, they've got

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Speaker 2: no choice. They've got you know, what, what do you do?

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, and they're doing it in returns

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Speaker 2: for kind of tins of fruit and syrup, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, because they've got to make ends meet. They've

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Speaker 2: got to they've got to feed their children, they've got

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Speaker 2: to they've got to survive.

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Speaker 4: That that's definitely part of the story, the amount of

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Speaker 4: what you know, modern day commentators would call survival sex

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Speaker 4: work during this World war. But and it's important, I think,

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Speaker 4: to distinguish that from women who are selling sex more

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Speaker 4: regularly kind of as part of their their main job.

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Speaker 4: But what the word that really struck me was available

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Speaker 4: available women. I would really love to get inside the

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Speaker 4: head of whoever wrote that and ask what do you

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Speaker 4: mean by available?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well I don't know what he means by do.

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Speaker 4: You mean our married women? Does he mean the women

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Speaker 4: who are hanging around the military barracks? Is? Does he

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Speaker 4: mean the women who he deems to be a quote

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Speaker 4: unquote available? And what's also really interesting there is that

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Speaker 4: the commentary is on how many women have venereal disease

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Speaker 4: rather than on how many men, because of course it

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Speaker 4: takes two to take.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, and it's a massive problem. It is a

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Speaker 2: massive problem.

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Speaker 3: And how accurate that statistic actually is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think any of it. I don't

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Speaker 2: think it is accurate. I think it's a it's a bullpark.

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Speaker 2: But but even if he's remotely close. You see what

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Speaker 2: when I read that, I just thought that is absolutely horrific.

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Speaker 2: That's horrific. And you know, your first thought is those

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Speaker 2: poor women who are in that situation where they're they're

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Speaker 2: getting vd from I mean my mujoric actions, they're getting

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Speaker 2: it all from from the American troops and British troops

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Speaker 2: and Allied troops that are out there that you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean you talk about victims. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's what I was thinking. That was my immediate reaction

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Speaker 2: when I came across that was what what what an

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Speaker 2: absolute horror story? And how in the narrative of the

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Speaker 2: Second World War it's it's it's civilians who always come

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Speaker 2: out least least well in terms of their story being told.

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Speaker 2: And obviously that that's improved as years have gone by

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Speaker 2: and we now think about the displaced people and all

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Speaker 2: the bombings in Europe and all the rest of it,

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Speaker 2: and obviously the Holocaust. But the point is is that

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Speaker 2: Italian part of the Italian population, these are the bits

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Speaker 2: behind the Allied dins and not in the behind the

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Speaker 2: axis lines and behind the Allied dines. You know, the

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Speaker 2: Allies are supposed to be the good guys, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're supposed to be the guys who liberating Europe, and

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Speaker 2: yet actually what they're bringing is this typhoon of steel

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Speaker 2: in terms of kind of destruction and bombardments and all

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Speaker 2: the rest of it. But they're also bringing another kind

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Speaker 2: of misery, which is rife, black markets, rampid inflation, you know,

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Speaker 2: bad exchange rates with the Italian lira, vast amounts of

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Speaker 2: venereal disease and sexually transmitted diseases and so on, And

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Speaker 2: it's a kind of an aspect that you one doesn't

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Speaker 2: think about too often, and I think, you know, should

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Speaker 2: be thought about more.

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Speaker 3: James, are you familiar with Regulation thirty three B? I

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Speaker 3: think Julish should school you in this and give you

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Speaker 3: some a little bit of perspective of what was going

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Speaker 3: on here at that time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, come on, tell me about Regulation thirty three B.

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Speaker 4: Well, I was going to start actually picking up on

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Speaker 4: a few of the points you made about about Italy

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Speaker 4: and about you know, the way we tell the story

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Speaker 4: of the Second World War and who gets remembered as

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Speaker 4: the victims, who gets remembered as the villains, To make

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Speaker 4: the point of, you know, how little we write about

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Speaker 4: the absolute integritle kind of connections between commercial sex and

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Speaker 4: militarism and war making, and how how completely entangled these

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Speaker 4: things are. Because when the military officers are writing, be

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Speaker 4: they based in London or based in Italy or based

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Speaker 4: in the United States, when they're writing about venereal disease,

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Speaker 4: and how worried they are, it's not with the well

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Speaker 4: being of the women in mind. They implicitly understand, or

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Speaker 4: they think they understand, that sex is part of war

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Speaker 4: and that if they don't allow their soldiers to access

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Speaker 4: quote unquote available women, then then you know, all hell's

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Speaker 4: going to break loose. And so this is you know,

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Speaker 4: the First World War, the Second World War, even later wars.

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Speaker 4: It's just part of the sort of thought process of

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Speaker 4: commanding officers. We have to let prostitution happen. And in

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Speaker 4: order to let it happen, we have to pass regulations

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Speaker 4: and rules that try at least to make it quote

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Speaker 4: unquote safe for men. And that's where all of these

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Speaker 4: regulations about passing you know, contact tracing, about criminalizing the

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Speaker 4: spread of VD come in.

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Speaker 2: Hm wow, okay, yeah, well, I mean I'm you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's a part of the the book I'm wrote

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Speaker 2: doing at the moment. I mean, you know, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to unpick this and trying to get to the bottom

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Speaker 2: of whether the RAS and more reliable statistics and all

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Speaker 2: the rest of it. I mean, it's it's it's a

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Speaker 2: it's a tricky one to unpick. There's absolutely no question

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Speaker 2: about it. But you know, I've been fortunate enough to

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Speaker 2: interview people, And one of the people I interviewed was

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Speaker 2: was an Italian lady who her son was killed in

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Speaker 2: the crossfire, four year old son, and she was to

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Speaker 2: greely stricken that she couldn't face going to the the

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Speaker 2: She lives on a farm in a mountain, couldn't face

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Speaker 2: going to the funeral in the town below, so she

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Speaker 2: stayed at home, kind of you know, in pieces. And

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Speaker 2: while she was at home in the farm, for Moroccan

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Speaker 2: soldiers came in and gang raped.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, sexual violence was an inherent part of war,

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Speaker 4: and there was so little attention paid to it. It

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Speaker 4: was so low down on the priority list of any

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Speaker 4: of the sort of commanding officers of the War Office.

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Speaker 4: If they were concerned about sex and sexual violence, it

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Speaker 4: was through the prism of venereal disease. And if they

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Speaker 4: were worried about venereal disease, it wasn't the Italian women

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Speaker 4: who were contracting it. It wasn't the English women who

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Speaker 4: are contracting it. It was the soldiers. And it was

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Speaker 4: seen as one of the biggest causes of troop loss.

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Speaker 4: So at any given time, one in ten men would

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Speaker 4: be on leave due to venereal disease.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's amazing.

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Speaker 4: The rates that they're estimating are incredibly high. I'd be

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Speaker 4: really careful with statistics. It's kind of impossible to know

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Speaker 4: the exact statistics because not least because diagnostic procedures were

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Speaker 4: still you know, fairly fairly new and unreliable, especially for gonerrhea.

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Speaker 4: They were getting a little bit better at syphilis.

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Speaker 2: But you can quote these statistics as long as you

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Speaker 2: have the caveat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think they give an indication a of just

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Speaker 4: how worried everyone was, so even if they're not true,

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Speaker 4: they certainly indicate the level of concern, right, And they

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Speaker 4: also give I think a slight indication of the epidemic

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Speaker 4: of gonerhea and syphilis in particular during this period. Other statistics,

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Speaker 4: you know, one in ten fighting men thirty percent suspected.

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Speaker 4: But the other thing with the statistics is it's important

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Speaker 4: to notice who they're talking about. So if the statistics

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Speaker 4: come along with sort of demonizing a particular population, my

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Speaker 4: alarm bells start ringing and I start thinking, you know,

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Speaker 4: is this a really a reliable, you know, medically informed,

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Speaker 4: epidemiologically informed statement, or is somebody hauling a number out

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Speaker 4: of their ass to make a point about available women.

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Speaker 4: I think there's a lot mixed up in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no sure, but whether he's being alarmist, whether he's

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Speaker 2: being concerned about his men, and whether he's been concerned

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Speaker 2: about the women of Italy, it is indicative of a

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Speaker 2: of a huge level of prostitution, which which the entire

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Speaker 2: statement is totally shocking. I mean, whichever way you're looking

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Speaker 2: at it, whether you're looking at the use of available

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Speaker 2: a quote unquote, or whether you're looking at the number

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Speaker 2: just you know, through today's prism, one can't possible, or

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Speaker 2: even the prism of nineteen forty four, you can't think

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Speaker 2: of anything. I don't think other than what a truly

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Speaker 2: horrific statistic, can you?

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean I'm not I'm not particularly

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Speaker 4: surprised by it because of the research that I do

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Speaker 4: and how inherently part of war prostitution is. I think

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Speaker 4: that people did become more aware of it in the

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Speaker 4: Second World War. I also think the levels of civilian

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Speaker 4: poverty were probably extremely high and extremely exactly in southern

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Speaker 4: Italy in particular, and so the rise in survival sex

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Speaker 4: work would have been striking, especially because it's also a

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Speaker 4: hub for so many different troops kind of moving through

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Speaker 4: that area. So it's not surprising, but I think it

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Speaker 4: says quite a lot about an immense hidden history of

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Speaker 4: misery and work. Yes, during the Second World.

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Speaker 2: War, Yes, yes, yes, yes, well yeah, we're absolutely on

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Speaker 2: the same page on that, I can assure you. But

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Speaker 2: but let's get back to the blackout Ripper, because this

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Speaker 2: is this is this is an extraordinary crime, and it's

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Speaker 2: a crime of opportunism, isn't it because of the peculiar

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Speaker 2: circumstances of London during the during the war.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously when there is no light makes it

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Speaker 3: much easier to corner. People were looking at Gordon Cummings

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Speaker 3: and we're looking he's the murderer. He's he's the we're

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Speaker 3: looking at well, we're not looking at him particularly, but

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Speaker 3: we are looking at the crimes that he committed in

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Speaker 3: London under these circumstances, but also at other crimes that

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Speaker 3: were committed against women during the Blitz, and how the

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Speaker 3: Blitz was used as a sort of mask for crimes

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Speaker 3: to occur, and how war also distracted people from crimes

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Speaker 3: against women that were occurring, I mean even even within

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Speaker 3: the ATS.

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Speaker 2: So I mean what kind of police force have we

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Speaker 2: got at that stage. I mean, the police lots of

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Speaker 2: people are joining up. They might be in the police,

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Speaker 2: but they're still joining up now. So that means that

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Speaker 2: the older policemen are staying there. They're still recruiting, of course,

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Speaker 2: but police got their you know, they've got other matters

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Speaker 2: to worry about as well, such as sort of bombs falling.

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Speaker 2: And obviously the blitz only last from September nineteen forty

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Speaker 2: to the middle of May nineteen forty one, and then

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Speaker 2: there's a long period where there aren't bombs falling every

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Speaker 2: single night, and then there's other little kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: you've got the v ones from middle of June nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty four and later. The V two is right pretty

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Speaker 2: much right through to the end. But there's there's a

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Speaker 2: lot a lot of period where there aren't bombs rolling

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Speaker 2: every night. So are the police still active? Is there

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Speaker 2: still that you know, the met is still there and

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Speaker 2: you know, and what are they doing? And how much

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Speaker 2: does is the war getting in the way of the

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Speaker 2: kind of normal routine stuff that police do.

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Speaker 4: So the police during the Second World War were definitely shorthanded,

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Speaker 4: you know, they were they were policing a city that

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Speaker 4: had grown in size, especially grown in troop size, as

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Speaker 4: well as a lot of women and other people coming

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Speaker 4: coming into the city for work for excitement.

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Speaker 2: Right and where there's young people, there's going to you know,

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Speaker 2: and drink, there's going to be fights, and so you've

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Speaker 2: got your hands full of that in a way that

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't normally.

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Speaker 4: So the police were definitely definitely shorthanded, and in general

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Speaker 4: weren't huge fans of policing commercial sex or policing nightlife,

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Speaker 4: but in particular during the Second World War, found it

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Speaker 4: extremely difficult to police troops. So there was a real

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Speaker 4: sort of reluctance on the part of the Metropolitan Police

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Speaker 4: to intervene in any situation that involved troops unless it

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Speaker 4: was egregious, because they knew that there'd be pushback and

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Speaker 4: they just didn't They just didn't want to get involved,

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Speaker 4: So they tended to turn blind eyes left, right and

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Speaker 4: center to the misbehavior and mischief of troops in London,

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Speaker 4: and that kind of peppers through all of the files.

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Speaker 4: They're extreme reluctance to get involved in adjudicating these cases.

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Speaker 4: Often they'd say that's a job for the military police.

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Speaker 4: It's not us, and so it kind of creates this atmosphere,

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Speaker 4: especially in C and D Division, which is what I

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Speaker 4: call Piccadilly and Soho. Those are the two police divisions

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Speaker 4: that would have been in charge. It really does have

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Speaker 4: a C and D division. Yeah, so CE Division is

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Speaker 4: South is sort of what we would today call Soho

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Speaker 4: and D Division is what we would today call Fitzrovia,

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Speaker 4: but at the time was known as North Soho. And

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Speaker 4: those are the areas where the nightlife is really rocking.

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Speaker 4: It's where the Rainbow Club is, where the American troops

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Speaker 4: are stationed after forty two, and it's where the bottle

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Speaker 4: parties are, so the sort of underground bars. They don't

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Speaker 4: have signs out front, just flick a light on when

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Speaker 4: they're open to get around the defense of the realmacked

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Speaker 4: regulations against sales of liquor, et cetera. And so there's

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Speaker 4: this real kind of hedonistic nightlife in the center of

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Speaker 4: London at the precise time when the police are shorthanded

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Speaker 4: and they're not particularly interested in policing it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a perfect storm, isn't it. And then

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Speaker 2: you've got you know, you've got the blackout and zoomy,

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Speaker 2: compounded by smogs as well at certain points.

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Speaker 4: I haven't noticed any direct connection between the London fogs

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Speaker 4: and sort of this kind of discussion about misbehavior, but

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Speaker 4: I'm sure it was part of it. I'm sure it

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Speaker 4: was lending to this atmosphere of alterity, of liminality, of

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Speaker 4: this sort of sense that you know, all all bets

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Speaker 4: are off, all rules are gone, life is cheap, and

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Speaker 4: so is the drink.

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Speaker 2: And I think the other thing is about you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, even if you wander around fitzrov now or

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Speaker 2: so Ho now, it's still even today in a city

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Speaker 2: of you know whatever it is, eleven million or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and when it's absolutely polliolating, literally all times, you can

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Speaker 2: still find yourself down alleyways and little streets where there's

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Speaker 2: hardly anyone, and particularly late at night. I mean I've

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Speaker 2: done it at night. I mean even coming out of

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Speaker 2: a bar or something, and you know, it's it's getting

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Speaker 2: on and suddenly you're taking a little shortcut and sudden

355
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Speaker 2: you can hear the sort of echo of your steps

356
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Speaker 2: down the street and you kind of feel, you feel

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Speaker 2: a little bit vulnerable. You can imagine how people must

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Speaker 2: have felt, you know, in the middle of the warriors

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Speaker 2: when you've got the blackout there as well, and the.

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Speaker 3: Bomb shelters too. I mean, so one of the motives

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Speaker 3: took place in a bomb shelter.

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Speaker 2: In a bombshelter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that we also look at is

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Speaker 3: just like how safe were women actually going into bomb shelters.

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Speaker 3: One former service woman talks about how she felt that

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Speaker 3: she had probably saved her life by not going into

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Speaker 3: a bomb shelter one night during the blitz, because as

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Speaker 3: she went to go down into the shelter, this very

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Speaker 3: very creepy, awful man kind of reached out at her,

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Speaker 3: and she said she would rather stay on the surface

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Speaker 3: than go down. And so there's lots of stories like

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Speaker 3: this which I think we've we've missed, you know, because

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Speaker 3: right we focused.

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Speaker 2: On because we got swept up in the story of

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Speaker 2: the blitz and blitz spirit and all that kind of stuff.

377
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we almost don't want to look at the darker side,

379
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Speaker 2: do we, because it's a story of defiance and the

380
00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:43,876
Speaker 2: nation coming together, and say, someone who's opportunistically performing you know,

381
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Speaker 2: despicable crime. So that doesn't fit with the narrative, does it?

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Speaker 3: No, exactly? And you know, and again, I think a

383
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Speaker 3: lot of what we're doing with this series is myth busting.

384
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Speaker 3: I mean, historical myth busting is so important. And you know,

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Speaker 3: there were a lot of myths obviously around Jack the

386
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Speaker 3: Ripper and a lot of myths around the blitz and

387
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Speaker 3: how we as a nation responded and what it was

388
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Speaker 3: like in the bomb shelter is you know the old

389
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Speaker 3: kind of go down to the bomb shelter and seeing

390
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Speaker 3: roll out the barrel, you know.

391
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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, you know, everyone coming together so or community

392
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Speaker 2: is coming together and people being neighborly and helping one

393
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Speaker 2: another and all the rest of it, and any kind

394
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Speaker 2: of crime jars against that, doesn't it.

395
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely so. One of the cases that we

396
00:21:25,276 --> 00:21:29,156
Speaker 3: look at is a case where a woman, Rachel Dobkin,

397
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Speaker 3: was murdered by her husband, who was a case of

398
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Speaker 3: domestic violence, and this occurred in the East End, and

399
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Speaker 3: he buried her remains in the rubble of a church

400
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Speaker 3: that had been bombed, hoping that the air raids would

401
00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:48,596
Speaker 3: be a cover for his crimes. That's a very opportunity.

402
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Speaker 2: Why did he do it?

403
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Speaker 3: Why did he do it? He was a violent man

404
00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:56,396
Speaker 3: and they had been estranged and she was left without

405
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Speaker 3: any support for her son. The marriage was bad from

406
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Speaker 3: the very outset. He abandoned her and she couldn't survive.

407
00:22:04,716 --> 00:22:08,076
Speaker 3: She couldn't she couldn't make ends meet. He was legally

408
00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:10,956
Speaker 3: obligated to pay her money and he wasn't doing that.

409
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Speaker 3: And he was violent and he threatened her and it

410
00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,436
Speaker 3: was a case of coerce of control and eventually he

411
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Speaker 3: murdered her. And of course today we know much more

412
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Speaker 3: about these types of things and this type of violence,

413
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Speaker 3: but in the past not so much. The police did

414
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Speaker 3: ask questions like what does she what does she do

415
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Speaker 3: to deserve it? You know, and and you know, kind

416
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Speaker 3: of demonizing her for her own murder.

417
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Speaker 2: Tell you what, We're going to take a short break

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Speaker 2: and we'll talk some more when we come back. Welcome

419
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Speaker 2: back to We have ways of making you talk with

420
00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:47,556
Speaker 2: me James Holland and with Halle Ruben Hall and Professor

421
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Speaker 2: Julia Late and we're talking about crimes against women in

422
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Speaker 2: London in the Second World War. And god, it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's a it's uncomfortable, isn't it thinking about all this?

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm sitting here being a bloke, and you know,

425
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Speaker 2: I kind of you know, all those the opportunism of

426
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Speaker 2: these despicable characters in the time of a blackout and

427
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Speaker 2: a time where I don't know, you expect more, don't you,

428
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Speaker 2: from your from your civilian population. It's it's uh, it's

429
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Speaker 2: it's really it's really making me think.

430
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Speaker 4: I have to say, I think the other thing as well,

431
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Speaker 4: that's important to point out is that a lot of

432
00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:30,556
Speaker 4: the men who perpetrated this violence, yeah, I guess they

433
00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:34,596
Speaker 4: were despicable, but they weren't extraordinary, and that this violence

434
00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:40,316
Speaker 4: was Quoteedian and unfortunately accelerated by the trauma of war.

435
00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:43,116
Speaker 4: And you know, we talk a lot. We're much more

436
00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:46,756
Speaker 4: aware now of the way that that war affects the

437
00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:50,036
Speaker 4: mental health of soldiers. But even though they weren't as

438
00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:51,956
Speaker 4: aware of it in the Second World War, it of

439
00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:55,316
Speaker 4: course did. And you see so many cases of men

440
00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:57,676
Speaker 4: who are fighting and then of course coming back to

441
00:23:57,756 --> 00:24:03,036
Speaker 4: London on leave and they're messed up there. You know,

442
00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:08,316
Speaker 4: they get drunk. They have underlying traumas. They live in

443
00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:12,876
Speaker 4: an environment where violence against women is quotidian, where they

444
00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:15,876
Speaker 4: see lots of examples of their commanding officers and their

445
00:24:15,916 --> 00:24:21,836
Speaker 4: superiors buying sex, encouraging others to buy sex. And you know,

446
00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:25,116
Speaker 4: all too often it's not the sort of despicable maniac

447
00:24:25,476 --> 00:24:30,236
Speaker 4: who's perpetrating this violence, right, it's the average soldier. And

448
00:24:30,276 --> 00:24:33,076
Speaker 4: I'm in no way suggesting that every soldier did this

449
00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:34,436
Speaker 4: in any way, shape or form.

450
00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:34,996
Speaker 2: No, of course not.

451
00:24:35,396 --> 00:24:39,636
Speaker 4: But it was absolutely part of the culture, whether we

452
00:24:39,756 --> 00:24:40,196
Speaker 4: like it or not.

453
00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,476
Speaker 2: And quite a number of the crimes you've been investigating

454
00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:46,956
Speaker 2: and looking into, they are just these ordinary soldiers that

455
00:24:46,996 --> 00:24:49,076
Speaker 2: are coming back and losing the plot.

456
00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:52,356
Speaker 3: So we look at, for example, a couple of ats women,

457
00:24:52,836 --> 00:24:56,556
Speaker 3: a woman called Lillian Welsh who was knocked off her

458
00:24:56,556 --> 00:25:00,716
Speaker 3: bicycle and murdered deliberately by a man driving a truck

459
00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:03,516
Speaker 3: back from a base one evening as she was riding home.

460
00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:07,396
Speaker 3: And that was just his thing. He liked to knock

461
00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:10,596
Speaker 3: women off their bikes. You put a man in uniform

462
00:25:10,636 --> 00:25:13,276
Speaker 3: and suddenly he's got an extra layer of defense around

463
00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,356
Speaker 3: him during a period of war, because he's unassailable. You know,

464
00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:21,076
Speaker 3: because it's really important that we don't do down our boys.

465
00:25:21,436 --> 00:25:24,116
Speaker 3: We're in a national crisis. We all have to pull together.

466
00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:26,716
Speaker 3: You know. People become a little bit more incredulous about

467
00:25:26,716 --> 00:25:31,196
Speaker 3: the crimes actually taking place, and they're more apt to

468
00:25:31,236 --> 00:25:34,356
Speaker 3: not believe the victim and not to question the man

469
00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:37,276
Speaker 3: in uniform. Also because it's bad, it's bad for the nation,

470
00:25:37,396 --> 00:25:38,516
Speaker 3: it's bad for everybody.

471
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:40,316
Speaker 2: So a lot of people are just getting away with it.

472
00:25:40,596 --> 00:25:43,636
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were able to find cases where they didn't

473
00:25:43,676 --> 00:25:45,716
Speaker 3: get away with it, but you know, there were a

474
00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:50,556
Speaker 3: lot of really terrible consequences. We also look at the

475
00:25:51,276 --> 00:25:56,956
Speaker 3: children who were born to Whitebridish women who had relationships

476
00:25:57,036 --> 00:26:00,996
Speaker 3: with African American gis who were here, and what happened

477
00:26:01,076 --> 00:26:03,956
Speaker 3: to their children, the so called brown babies. I mean,

478
00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:09,036
Speaker 3: racial aggression is another type of violence. And African American

479
00:26:09,236 --> 00:26:14,236
Speaker 3: gis who came to this country experienced a type of freedom,

480
00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:16,756
Speaker 3: especially if they were from the Southern States and subject

481
00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:20,916
Speaker 3: to Jim Crow laws. Here it was quite liberating. But

482
00:26:21,036 --> 00:26:24,396
Speaker 3: then also they were subject obviously on their basis, to

483
00:26:24,596 --> 00:26:28,676
Speaker 3: their own racial segregation laws that in many cases were

484
00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:32,956
Speaker 3: quite uncomfortable reinforcing in this country. But then the children

485
00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:37,716
Speaker 3: who were born to these relationships, We interviewed two of them,

486
00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:41,956
Speaker 3: and they were caught between this terrible place where they

487
00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:45,396
Speaker 3: didn't feel like they belonged anywhere, They didn't feel like

488
00:26:45,516 --> 00:26:49,156
Speaker 3: they were accepted in this country, and they didn't feel

489
00:26:49,156 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 3: that they were accepted by their father's families in the

490
00:26:52,356 --> 00:26:55,756
Speaker 3: United States either. This is another legacy of a type

491
00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:58,836
Speaker 3: of violence as well. It's fascinating to look at all

492
00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:01,636
Speaker 3: of these things, all of these sub stories, all of

493
00:27:01,676 --> 00:27:04,956
Speaker 3: these things that happened as a result of the war

494
00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,156
Speaker 3: on the home front here and so many like these

495
00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:13,716
Speaker 3: these injustice is tend to go under the radar, No, absolutely, So.

496
00:27:13,756 --> 00:27:17,956
Speaker 2: The ripper took about the blackout Ripper who were the

497
00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:20,756
Speaker 2: women who were murdered by him? Then, so he.

498
00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:24,356
Speaker 3: Actually murdered for and attacked to others. He tried to

499
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:30,276
Speaker 3: murder them unsuccessfully, and they were Evelyn Hamilton, Evelyn Oatley,

500
00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:34,836
Speaker 3: Margaret Lowe, and a woman called Doris Juana. And then

501
00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:38,876
Speaker 3: he attacked two other women who survived, called Katherine mccaulughey

502
00:27:39,396 --> 00:27:43,036
Speaker 3: and Margaret Haywood. A number of them were sex workers,

503
00:27:43,796 --> 00:27:48,436
Speaker 3: except for Evelyn Hamilton, who was She was a chemist

504
00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,756
Speaker 3: and she was an independent woman, and she just happened

505
00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:56,036
Speaker 3: to be out at a Mason Lions that evening dining alone.

506
00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:59,476
Speaker 3: When he was out on the prowl looking for a

507
00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 3: woman who was by herself in the dark in the

508
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:04,436
Speaker 3: middle of the blackout.

509
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 2: So what do you do. She's in the Lion's House,

510
00:28:06,556 --> 00:28:09,556
Speaker 2: the Lion's corner shop or whatever, Mason Leon and then

511
00:28:09,716 --> 00:28:12,276
Speaker 2: and then leaves. He follows her and what happens?

512
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:14,716
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he attacks her and murders her in a

513
00:28:15,756 --> 00:28:16,316
Speaker 3: bomb shelter.

514
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 2: So there's no sexual motive for this.

515
00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 3: There may be a sexual motive, you know. I like

516
00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:22,396
Speaker 3: to say with Jack the Ripper, it was a crime

517
00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:26,076
Speaker 3: that was motivated against women. It was a sex crime

518
00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:28,516
Speaker 3: in that it was a gender crime. Without wanting to

519
00:28:28,556 --> 00:28:30,276
Speaker 3: go into too many details, because one of the things

520
00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:33,356
Speaker 3: that we were very careful to do in this particular

521
00:28:33,356 --> 00:28:36,356
Speaker 3: podcast is not really to go into a lot of

522
00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:38,676
Speaker 3: the details about the murders. One of the things that

523
00:28:38,756 --> 00:28:43,156
Speaker 3: was apparent was overkilled, which demonstrates a certain type of rage,

524
00:28:43,716 --> 00:28:46,916
Speaker 3: a kind of sexual extreme violence, extreme violence as sexually

525
00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:47,996
Speaker 3: motivated rage.

526
00:28:48,196 --> 00:28:50,796
Speaker 2: Wow, and he's caught, is he eventually?

527
00:28:50,956 --> 00:28:54,036
Speaker 3: Yes, he is caught. The rather annoying thing is that

528
00:28:54,076 --> 00:28:56,476
Speaker 3: he's he's caught, but he is only tried for the

529
00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:59,916
Speaker 3: murder of Evelyn Oatley and not the others. And he

530
00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 3: may have killed others as well. So he was an

531
00:29:02,316 --> 00:29:06,836
Speaker 3: Air Force cadet. And again because he's wearing the uniform.

532
00:29:07,276 --> 00:29:10,316
Speaker 3: You know, people tend to not that's not the first

533
00:29:10,316 --> 00:29:13,676
Speaker 3: thing you're thinking about when you encounter a man in uniform.

534
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:16,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you think he must be unerstanding. He's doing

535
00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:17,476
Speaker 2: his bit, That's right.

536
00:29:18,036 --> 00:29:20,516
Speaker 3: He was a very unpleasant character. And also he liked

537
00:29:20,556 --> 00:29:24,636
Speaker 3: to pretend that he was of some sort of aristocratic

538
00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:27,436
Speaker 3: or gentry background. And you know, he had this whole

539
00:29:27,436 --> 00:29:30,756
Speaker 3: persona and he stole money, he embezzled money in order

540
00:29:30,796 --> 00:29:34,876
Speaker 3: to support this lifestyle that he had, and the RAF

541
00:29:34,956 --> 00:29:38,756
Speaker 3: obviously really appealed to him because of its social status.

542
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:42,876
Speaker 2: I mean, you mentioned Evelyn. He was the in the

543
00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:45,596
Speaker 2: Lion's house, having a money r nps and keys and

544
00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:47,756
Speaker 2: being a chemist. But these other women, I mean, I mean,

545
00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:50,156
Speaker 2: who are they? I mean you were saying the others

546
00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:52,156
Speaker 2: are a sex workers. I mean, but who are these people?

547
00:29:52,156 --> 00:29:52,796
Speaker 2: What's their story?

548
00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:54,596
Speaker 3: Well, that's that's a very good question, and in fact,

549
00:29:54,596 --> 00:29:57,716
Speaker 3: that's what we're talking about. We follow the lives of

550
00:29:57,756 --> 00:29:59,916
Speaker 3: all of these women as much as we possibly can,

551
00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 3: as much as the records allow. You know, we can

552
00:30:02,116 --> 00:30:05,156
Speaker 3: use these women as a lens to really tell the

553
00:30:05,196 --> 00:30:08,836
Speaker 3: story of women in the first half of the twenty

554
00:30:08,916 --> 00:30:13,116
Speaker 3: cent and what their experiences were. So Evelyn Oakley, whose

555
00:30:13,196 --> 00:30:16,476
Speaker 3: life I find just so fascinating and so haunting, grew

556
00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:19,876
Speaker 3: up in Yorkshire, in Keighley, and in fact she was

557
00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:24,436
Speaker 3: the daughter of a German immigrant, so her mother was German,

558
00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:28,556
Speaker 3: and who faced a tremendous amount of Germanophobia in the

559
00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:31,116
Speaker 3: First World War and was right in the center of

560
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:34,396
Speaker 3: some local attacks on the German community in Keighley. She

561
00:30:34,476 --> 00:30:39,196
Speaker 3: came from a broken home. People liked to try to

562
00:30:39,236 --> 00:30:43,716
Speaker 3: find a way of escaping from their very unpleasant circumstances,

563
00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:46,796
Speaker 3: and often I think cinema and theater was the way

564
00:30:46,836 --> 00:30:51,076
Speaker 3: in which people did. And you know, she was obsessed

565
00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:57,676
Speaker 3: with glamour and the West End performance and eventually ended

566
00:30:57,756 --> 00:30:59,036
Speaker 3: up going to Belong.

567
00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:00,836
Speaker 2: You can understand that anyone who's wanting to sort of

568
00:31:00,876 --> 00:31:02,876
Speaker 2: better their lives a glamor of the silver screen and

569
00:31:02,876 --> 00:31:05,276
Speaker 2: all the rest of it, the dazzling lights and all

570
00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:06,956
Speaker 2: the rest of it. Of course, it's like a sort

571
00:31:06,996 --> 00:31:08,516
Speaker 2: of a mofed a light bulb.

572
00:31:09,116 --> 00:31:11,276
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I think there's there's a certain amount of

573
00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:13,996
Speaker 3: pathos in it. There's a certain amount of when you

574
00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:17,196
Speaker 3: you know, you know that these people escaped into the

575
00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:20,356
Speaker 3: cinemas to get away from their lives, and how grueling

576
00:31:20,356 --> 00:31:22,916
Speaker 3: and difficult their lives were. And and and you know,

577
00:31:22,956 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 3: Evelyn Oatly's life was that her background was from you know,

578
00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:29,436
Speaker 3: she was from a broken home. She was from an

579
00:31:29,556 --> 00:31:33,596
Speaker 3: area which was poor, and she worked in a mill

580
00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:35,996
Speaker 3: for a time. And so she went to Blackpool and

581
00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:40,436
Speaker 3: she met the man who would become her husband, Harold,

582
00:31:40,996 --> 00:31:44,436
Speaker 3: and he was a poultry farmer. And it's such a

583
00:31:44,476 --> 00:31:45,556
Speaker 3: weird pairing.

584
00:31:45,916 --> 00:31:47,996
Speaker 2: So this evenin is not the chemist, it's the other revenue.

585
00:31:47,996 --> 00:31:50,956
Speaker 2: She ends up with marrying a poultry farmer in London.

586
00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:53,356
Speaker 3: Well, she ends up marrying a poultry farmer. But like

587
00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:56,716
Speaker 3: their marriage is so bizarre, so like he is just

588
00:31:56,996 --> 00:31:58,836
Speaker 3: he says, Look, you know you want to go and

589
00:31:58,876 --> 00:32:01,436
Speaker 3: live a glamorous life in London. I'll stay here on

590
00:32:01,476 --> 00:32:04,396
Speaker 3: a poultry farm. You go to Piccadilly, you go work

591
00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:07,236
Speaker 3: in the Windmill Club, which is what she wanted to do,

592
00:32:07,676 --> 00:32:10,036
Speaker 3: or at least that she said that she did that.

593
00:32:10,636 --> 00:32:13,236
Speaker 3: And Julia, do you want to tell us a little

594
00:32:13,236 --> 00:32:16,196
Speaker 3: bit about the Windmill Club during the nineteen thirties nineteen

595
00:32:16,196 --> 00:32:17,956
Speaker 3: forties is such a great story.

596
00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:20,436
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, these these spaces like the Windmill Club

597
00:32:20,516 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 4: become just the center of all kinds of imagination, and

598
00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:28,436
Speaker 4: they're you know, for racy performances and kind of cabaret

599
00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:31,436
Speaker 4: style performances. So they're the they're the kind of far

600
00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:34,316
Speaker 4: end of the music hall. Just as music halls are

601
00:32:34,396 --> 00:32:38,236
Speaker 4: starting to kind of spruce themselves up and become family friendly,

602
00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:41,516
Speaker 4: places like the Windmill Theater are becoming a kind of

603
00:32:41,556 --> 00:32:43,036
Speaker 4: adult only entertainment venue.

604
00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:45,556
Speaker 2: Right, But it's not nudity, is it. It's it's kind

605
00:32:45,596 --> 00:32:47,356
Speaker 2: of stockings and legs and stuff.

606
00:32:47,076 --> 00:32:49,596
Speaker 4: Isn't it, Yeah, for the most part. But it's it's

607
00:32:49,676 --> 00:32:52,676
Speaker 4: very very racy for the time, and they're they're constantly

608
00:32:52,676 --> 00:32:55,276
Speaker 4: in danger of losing their license, of course, but they

609
00:32:55,516 --> 00:33:00,476
Speaker 4: they really become places where where people like Evelyn Oatly

610
00:33:01,076 --> 00:33:04,836
Speaker 4: would dream of working and performing because they're you know,

611
00:33:04,876 --> 00:33:06,516
Speaker 4: they're the to meet.

612
00:33:06,476 --> 00:33:08,076
Speaker 2: Some rich bloke. He's going to be your ticket.

613
00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:10,676
Speaker 4: That's absolutely part of it, The idea that you might

614
00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:14,116
Speaker 4: achieve some kind of social mobility through through meetings some

615
00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:18,276
Speaker 4: rich Yeah. I think there's those dreams, but I also

616
00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:20,916
Speaker 4: just think that they were a lot more fun to

617
00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:22,236
Speaker 4: work in than poultry firms.

618
00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:27,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it depends what your vibe is. But yeah,

619
00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:28,756
Speaker 2: I guess probably.

620
00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:31,516
Speaker 4: I think, you know, because we talk a lot. I mean,

621
00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:34,316
Speaker 4: I work a lot about you know, and and there's

622
00:33:34,316 --> 00:33:36,156
Speaker 4: a lot of evidence to suggest that Evil and Oely

623
00:33:36,316 --> 00:33:39,796
Speaker 4: did eventually end up selling sex at least part time.

624
00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:43,236
Speaker 4: And I work a lot on these topics. And there's

625
00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:46,196
Speaker 4: a lot of conversations about you know, women being you know,

626
00:33:46,356 --> 00:33:49,796
Speaker 4: forced by poverty or lack of other choices into into

627
00:33:49,836 --> 00:33:53,316
Speaker 4: selling sex, and that's absolutely valid. But I think we

628
00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:55,436
Speaker 4: also need to make space for the fact that women,

629
00:33:55,876 --> 00:33:58,356
Speaker 4: you know, had dreams and ambitions of their own and

630
00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:02,116
Speaker 4: sometimes saw this kind of labor, like sexualized labor or

631
00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:06,236
Speaker 4: sex work as a way to achieve those dreams and

632
00:34:06,556 --> 00:34:08,836
Speaker 4: enjoyed that kind of work, and they were drawn to

633
00:34:08,876 --> 00:34:11,796
Speaker 4: the statement of the West End, especially during the war.

634
00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:15,236
Speaker 4: You know, the Americans called them good time girls. The

635
00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:19,476
Speaker 4: British police called them amateur prostitutes. In a slightly less

636
00:34:19,476 --> 00:34:21,276
Speaker 4: euphimistic But.

637
00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:23,156
Speaker 2: It's not just a windmill club, is it is? A

638
00:34:23,156 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 2: bag of nails? Is another famous one? Isn't. Yeah, there's

639
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:28,916
Speaker 2: a load, there's a load of them, aren't there? And

640
00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:32,756
Speaker 2: then there's the more kind of upmarket marketplaces like them,

641
00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:33,196
Speaker 2: you know.

642
00:34:33,876 --> 00:34:37,316
Speaker 3: The Criterion and yeah, the Cafe.

643
00:34:37,116 --> 00:34:40,076
Speaker 2: Royal, Cave Ryan and the Cave to Parry and all

644
00:34:40,076 --> 00:34:43,436
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. But but was she murdered because

645
00:34:43,516 --> 00:34:45,436
Speaker 2: she was working at the Windmill Club or was she

646
00:34:45,556 --> 00:34:47,436
Speaker 2: murdered because she was walking back late at night and

647
00:34:47,436 --> 00:34:47,876
Speaker 2: it was dark.

648
00:34:48,116 --> 00:34:51,356
Speaker 4: My understanding is evil and Oatly had picked up Cummings

649
00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:57,356
Speaker 4: as a client. So she was murdered in her own room, Yes,

650
00:34:57,476 --> 00:35:00,516
Speaker 4: in her own room. And so it's a really good

651
00:35:00,596 --> 00:35:03,956
Speaker 4: question in terms of what made Evelin and Doris and

652
00:35:04,476 --> 00:35:08,836
Speaker 4: the others, with the exception of the very opportunistic murder

653
00:35:08,916 --> 00:35:11,676
Speaker 4: of of the other evilin in the bomb shelter, what

654
00:35:11,756 --> 00:35:15,316
Speaker 4: made the other women so vulnerable to Cummings is that

655
00:35:15,396 --> 00:35:18,236
Speaker 4: they're soliciting and they're selling sex at a time when

656
00:35:18,276 --> 00:35:20,596
Speaker 4: it's becoming more and more dangerous. And that's kind of

657
00:35:20,596 --> 00:35:24,476
Speaker 4: for two main reasons. One is because it's being criminalized,

658
00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:29,276
Speaker 4: it's being forced underground, and women are forced to solicit alone,

659
00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:32,396
Speaker 4: they're forced to work alone. There's nobody looking out for them,

660
00:35:32,436 --> 00:35:36,036
Speaker 4: there's no sort of form of public surveillance. Nobody knew

661
00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:38,756
Speaker 4: that Evelin had taken comings back. There was nobody there

662
00:35:39,036 --> 00:35:39,636
Speaker 4: but Julie.

663
00:35:39,636 --> 00:35:43,316
Speaker 2: If you're if you're really your Evilin or some other

664
00:35:43,596 --> 00:35:46,196
Speaker 2: guy at that time, I mean, and you're thinking, Okay,

665
00:35:46,316 --> 00:35:48,116
Speaker 2: this is this is the route I'm going to go down.

666
00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:52,116
Speaker 2: Do you think you're aware that the danger levels have

667
00:35:52,236 --> 00:35:54,876
Speaker 2: been heightened because of the circumstances of the war, because

668
00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:56,756
Speaker 2: of the lack of interest in the police, because they've

669
00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:58,956
Speaker 2: got their hands full, because of the number of servicemen,

670
00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:02,756
Speaker 2: because it's dark, because because I mean, do you think

671
00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:06,316
Speaker 2: that's part of the calculation? Yes? I do, And I

672
00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:08,156
Speaker 2: think do you think that's part of the allure? In

673
00:36:08,196 --> 00:36:08,956
Speaker 2: a funny sort of way.

674
00:36:09,236 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 4: No, I don't think it's part of the allure. I

675
00:36:10,916 --> 00:36:13,036
Speaker 4: think they were doing it because they wanted to be

676
00:36:13,116 --> 00:36:16,276
Speaker 4: part of that that sort of space potentially, but mostly

677
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:18,276
Speaker 4: they were doing it for money, and they were making

678
00:36:18,356 --> 00:36:21,076
Speaker 4: really difficult decisions about how they were going to make

679
00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:22,796
Speaker 4: money at a time when they were often the only

680
00:36:22,876 --> 00:36:25,356
Speaker 4: ones keeping themselves right, so they didn't have anybody giving

681
00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:27,236
Speaker 4: them money they wanted to.

682
00:36:27,236 --> 00:36:28,996
Speaker 2: Know, So for most people, they're still doing it out

683
00:36:29,036 --> 00:36:30,636
Speaker 2: of necessity rather than because they want to.

684
00:36:30,916 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 4: I think we have to be careful with the kind

685
00:36:33,796 --> 00:36:36,996
Speaker 4: of binary there, because you can you can choose to

686
00:36:37,116 --> 00:36:41,476
Speaker 4: sell sex as a choice amongst other worst choices, and

687
00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:43,516
Speaker 4: so yeah, so I think it's important to.

688
00:36:45,116 --> 00:36:46,836
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all those Italian women. You really have

689
00:36:47,036 --> 00:36:50,156
Speaker 2: no other alternative ways of feeding themselves.

690
00:36:50,636 --> 00:36:51,796
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's one of the reasons.

691
00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:54,076
Speaker 2: In late nineteen forty three, for example, the only way

692
00:36:54,076 --> 00:36:57,276
Speaker 2: they're going to get food is by prostituting themselves in

693
00:36:57,316 --> 00:36:59,556
Speaker 2: return for food from from Allied troops.

694
00:37:00,116 --> 00:37:02,316
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that's why it's really really important

695
00:37:02,356 --> 00:37:06,516
Speaker 4: to draw a difference between sex work as a form

696
00:37:06,596 --> 00:37:09,796
Speaker 4: of labor that women do in alternative to another form

697
00:37:09,836 --> 00:37:12,316
Speaker 4: of labor which may not pay them anything or much,

698
00:37:12,996 --> 00:37:17,116
Speaker 4: and survival sex work, which is really really different. And

699
00:37:17,396 --> 00:37:20,036
Speaker 4: and so I think in the case of Evil and Oatly,

700
00:37:21,236 --> 00:37:24,396
Speaker 4: she's doing sex works, she's selling sex because she wants money.

701
00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:26,756
Speaker 4: But there's a lot of evidence in her case that

702
00:37:26,876 --> 00:37:29,196
Speaker 4: she really also loved to the West End, that she

703
00:37:29,396 --> 00:37:32,436
Speaker 4: loved the culture there, that she loves the atmosphere.

704
00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:34,796
Speaker 2: There, and that she was going to chicken.

705
00:37:35,676 --> 00:37:38,076
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, she goes back every now and then, but

706
00:37:38,276 --> 00:37:38,956
Speaker 4: she never stayed.

707
00:37:38,996 --> 00:37:42,116
Speaker 3: But she also sometimes she brings she brings another man back.

708
00:37:42,236 --> 00:37:45,236
Speaker 3: I mean, she has other relationships with other men and

709
00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:48,396
Speaker 3: takes them back to the chicken farm with her husband,

710
00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:50,556
Speaker 3: who doesn't seem to mind.

711
00:37:50,956 --> 00:37:53,636
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so the other thing is, you know, he

712
00:37:53,676 --> 00:37:55,596
Speaker 4: asked about whether or not she would have been aware

713
00:37:55,636 --> 00:37:58,676
Speaker 4: of the dangers, and the fair amount of evidence that

714
00:37:59,116 --> 00:38:03,556
Speaker 4: she and others were part of a community of people.

715
00:38:03,716 --> 00:38:06,756
Speaker 4: So there would have been people, you know, giving them tips,

716
00:38:06,836 --> 00:38:09,516
Speaker 4: warning them about dangers. But there's only how much you

717
00:38:09,596 --> 00:38:12,596
Speaker 4: can do in an atmosphere that makes it illegal to

718
00:38:12,676 --> 00:38:15,316
Speaker 4: work together. So the safest thing to do would have

719
00:38:15,396 --> 00:38:18,396
Speaker 4: been for two women to solicit together, bring men home together,

720
00:38:18,836 --> 00:38:21,676
Speaker 4: and watch out for each other. But from eighteen eighty

721
00:38:21,756 --> 00:38:25,316
Speaker 4: five on, that's illegal. You can't you can't work together

722
00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:27,396
Speaker 4: if you're selling sex, and that continues to be illegal

723
00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:30,596
Speaker 4: into the present day. And that is like the simple

724
00:38:30,756 --> 00:38:33,556
Speaker 4: fact that renders so many of these women vulnerable to

725
00:38:33,676 --> 00:38:36,676
Speaker 4: violence because there's no one, no one in the wrong.

726
00:38:37,236 --> 00:38:41,676
Speaker 2: That's extraordinary, What a terrible decision. And in terms of

727
00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:44,356
Speaker 2: I mean, do we I mean, presumably we do have

728
00:38:44,436 --> 00:38:47,476
Speaker 2: pretty detailed crime statistics for London in the nineteen forties,

729
00:38:47,516 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 2: do we, I mean you know, I mean how much

730
00:38:50,356 --> 00:38:53,156
Speaker 2: how bad was it and how much did the crime rate,

731
00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:55,876
Speaker 2: particularly of kinds of murders and rape of women in

732
00:38:55,996 --> 00:38:58,116
Speaker 2: London in the nineteen early part of the nineteen forties,

733
00:38:58,156 --> 00:38:59,356
Speaker 2: how much did that climb?

734
00:39:00,236 --> 00:39:03,316
Speaker 4: We don't actually have super reliable statistics, do we not.

735
00:39:03,556 --> 00:39:05,556
Speaker 2: I'm I thought we thought like that. I thought that

736
00:39:06,596 --> 00:39:07,276
Speaker 2: they would be there.

737
00:39:07,916 --> 00:39:10,396
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean part of the prob is it's a mess, right,

738
00:39:10,516 --> 00:39:14,316
Speaker 4: So states of total war aren't particularly great for civilian bookkeeping.

739
00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:17,276
Speaker 4: And this is this is this is one of the

740
00:39:17,356 --> 00:39:23,356
Speaker 4: ways in which you know, yes, they're obviously the police, right,

741
00:39:23,556 --> 00:39:27,396
Speaker 4: there are indicative trends, and I think overall it doesn't

742
00:39:27,476 --> 00:39:31,596
Speaker 4: go up severely. But you have to remember the enormous

743
00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:36,196
Speaker 4: amount of under reporting, not of murder, but of of

744
00:39:36,556 --> 00:39:39,916
Speaker 4: violence against the person. So I think so many of

745
00:39:39,956 --> 00:39:42,836
Speaker 4: these are being perpetrated by men in uniform. You know,

746
00:39:43,036 --> 00:39:45,716
Speaker 4: women know all too well what's going to happen to

747
00:39:45,796 --> 00:39:49,156
Speaker 4: them if they allege a crime against a man in uniform.

748
00:39:49,716 --> 00:39:52,316
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's hard enough, you know, the sort

749
00:39:52,316 --> 00:39:55,636
Speaker 4: of conviction rates for sexual offenses are abysmally low in

750
00:39:55,716 --> 00:39:58,996
Speaker 4: this period, and it's hard enough to get a conviction

751
00:39:59,156 --> 00:40:02,676
Speaker 4: in peacetime against a civilian man getting a conviction in

752
00:40:02,756 --> 00:40:06,236
Speaker 4: wartime against a man in uniform. You know, women know

753
00:40:06,356 --> 00:40:08,396
Speaker 4: the score. They're not going to put themselves through it.

754
00:40:08,916 --> 00:40:10,836
Speaker 4: And I think there's actually one point, is it Evelyn

755
00:40:10,916 --> 00:40:13,596
Speaker 4: who says, you know, she's getting she's getting assaulted left,

756
00:40:13,676 --> 00:40:16,676
Speaker 4: right and center by angry you know, angry clients. And

757
00:40:16,796 --> 00:40:18,756
Speaker 4: at one point somebody says, you know, well, why didn't

758
00:40:18,796 --> 00:40:21,116
Speaker 4: you go and report him? And she just why didn't

759
00:40:21,436 --> 00:40:23,876
Speaker 4: she basically laughs it off, You know why I didn't

760
00:40:23,916 --> 00:40:24,836
Speaker 4: go and report.

761
00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:28,316
Speaker 2: Exactly well, both of you. That's that's absolutely fascinating and

762
00:40:28,396 --> 00:40:32,796
Speaker 2: has given me lots to think about. I have to say, goodness,

763
00:40:33,836 --> 00:40:36,676
Speaker 2: But Judah, is one thing that you mentioned that we

764
00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:39,516
Speaker 2: haven't actually talked about, and that's Regulation thirty three B.

765
00:40:40,196 --> 00:40:41,716
Speaker 2: So what is regulation thirty three B?

766
00:40:41,996 --> 00:40:44,036
Speaker 4: So? Regulation thirty three B is part of the defense

767
00:40:44,076 --> 00:40:47,876
Speaker 4: of the REALMAC, that kind of omnibus legislation that comes

768
00:40:47,956 --> 00:40:51,236
Speaker 4: through during the war, and there was another version of it,

769
00:40:51,436 --> 00:40:54,356
Speaker 4: Dora as it's often called, in the First World War

770
00:40:54,396 --> 00:40:57,956
Speaker 4: as well, and thirty three B I think is just

771
00:40:58,036 --> 00:41:02,756
Speaker 4: a really meaningful indication of just how worried everyone was

772
00:41:02,796 --> 00:41:08,836
Speaker 4: about venereal disease, and it came about largely because of Canadian, American,

773
00:41:09,316 --> 00:41:12,476
Speaker 4: Australian and New Zealand troops, but most of all American

774
00:41:12,556 --> 00:41:16,956
Speaker 4: troops who were coming to London and catching sexually transmitted infections,

775
00:41:17,356 --> 00:41:21,036
Speaker 4: and the commanding officers of those troops insisted that it

776
00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:24,636
Speaker 4: was the fault of English women that their good innocent

777
00:41:24,756 --> 00:41:25,196
Speaker 4: boys have.

778
00:41:25,276 --> 00:41:27,436
Speaker 2: Of course, all boys from Ohio.

779
00:41:27,396 --> 00:41:31,036
Speaker 4: Yeah, Oklahoma, had never seen the like of the debauchery

780
00:41:31,196 --> 00:41:34,156
Speaker 4: in London, and they just couldn't control themselves. They were

781
00:41:34,236 --> 00:41:37,636
Speaker 4: being seduced and that they were catching diseases. And so

782
00:41:37,676 --> 00:41:40,316
Speaker 4: there's a lot of pressure put on the military in London.

783
00:41:40,316 --> 00:41:42,596
Speaker 4: There's a lot of pressure put on the mat to

784
00:41:42,716 --> 00:41:45,356
Speaker 4: try to control these women, and of course there's very

785
00:41:45,396 --> 00:41:48,636
Speaker 4: little that they can actually do other than criminalizing sex workers.

786
00:41:49,516 --> 00:41:51,676
Speaker 4: And so thirty three B comes into forest I believe

787
00:41:51,756 --> 00:41:56,556
Speaker 4: in nineteen forty two, and it states that if a

788
00:41:56,636 --> 00:42:00,476
Speaker 4: man or a soldier contracts a sexually transmitted infection, he's

789
00:42:00,516 --> 00:42:02,996
Speaker 4: then asked to report the names of who he thought

790
00:42:03,156 --> 00:42:05,636
Speaker 4: he got it from to the doctor, and the doctor

791
00:42:05,676 --> 00:42:08,756
Speaker 4: would then report those names to the medical officer of health,

792
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:11,036
Speaker 4: who would then engage in a kind of form of

793
00:42:11,116 --> 00:42:17,316
Speaker 4: criminalized contact tracing, finding the suspected infectants and compelling them

794
00:42:17,436 --> 00:42:20,796
Speaker 4: to undergo treatment for veneal disease. And what's really striking

795
00:42:20,876 --> 00:42:24,556
Speaker 4: about this is from nineteen seventeen on Britain had ostensibly

796
00:42:24,636 --> 00:42:27,956
Speaker 4: operated a voluntary system of venereal disease control, right, so

797
00:42:28,036 --> 00:42:30,596
Speaker 4: they said, no, no, no, it's not right, we should

798
00:42:30,596 --> 00:42:33,036
Speaker 4: never criminalize this, it doesn't work. But they completely go

799
00:42:33,156 --> 00:42:35,476
Speaker 4: back on that during the Second World War and they

800
00:42:35,556 --> 00:42:40,076
Speaker 4: start criminalizing people who are quote unquote spreading venereal disease.

801
00:42:40,596 --> 00:42:43,756
Speaker 4: But of course you can probably place your bets on

802
00:42:43,916 --> 00:42:48,076
Speaker 4: who were the targets of this legislation. It wasn't the

803
00:42:48,196 --> 00:42:51,516
Speaker 4: men giving venereal disease to women. It was the women

804
00:42:51,836 --> 00:42:54,596
Speaker 4: who theoretically were giving venereal disease to men, and they

805
00:42:54,676 --> 00:42:57,876
Speaker 4: had their medical histories revealed. If they refused to comply,

806
00:42:57,996 --> 00:42:59,116
Speaker 4: they were dragged into court.

807
00:42:59,676 --> 00:42:59,916
Speaker 2: Wow.

808
00:43:00,516 --> 00:43:04,156
Speaker 4: It was a really really quite shocking actually, and a

809
00:43:04,236 --> 00:43:06,916
Speaker 4: lot of people at the time spoke out against it, lawyers,

810
00:43:06,956 --> 00:43:10,836
Speaker 4: civil rights campaigners, feminists, but they, you know, kind of

811
00:43:10,876 --> 00:43:13,636
Speaker 4: fell on deaf ears because the war effort was more

812
00:43:13,636 --> 00:43:14,396
Speaker 4: important than anything.

813
00:43:14,556 --> 00:43:16,716
Speaker 2: But who was interting was this was this a British

814
00:43:16,756 --> 00:43:18,716
Speaker 2: government or was this pressure from the US government?

815
00:43:18,956 --> 00:43:23,316
Speaker 4: This is the War Office being pressured by the US military.

816
00:43:24,196 --> 00:43:31,116
Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, I had no idea. Yeah, really, Jars, doesn't it?

817
00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:35,996
Speaker 2: It really sits uncomfortably goodness. Well, listen, both of you,

818
00:43:36,116 --> 00:43:39,196
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on. Really good luck

819
00:43:39,236 --> 00:43:43,436
Speaker 2: with the podcast. Fascinating thought provoking stuff and obviously your

820
00:43:43,556 --> 00:43:46,436
Speaker 2: series is out now, The Bad Women, The Blackout River

821
00:43:46,996 --> 00:43:50,876
Speaker 2: and and listen, thank you both. I mean really gosh,

822
00:43:50,956 --> 00:43:54,316
Speaker 2: well that that's just been really really really interesting. As

823
00:43:54,316 --> 00:43:56,676
Speaker 2: I say, loads to think about there and let's think

824
00:43:56,716 --> 00:43:58,516
Speaker 2: about for me and as I try and sort of

825
00:43:58,556 --> 00:44:01,436
Speaker 2: pick through some of this in the blighted war in Italy.

826
00:44:01,516 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 2: But anyway, thank you both very much. And Julia Late,

827
00:44:06,196 --> 00:44:06,996
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you.

828
00:44:07,196 --> 00:44:11,876
Speaker 4: You're very welcome. It's been the pleasure. And punk Fish