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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable
Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,
Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapists advice
Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.
Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 3: a young man seeks our counsel on whether to try
Speaker 3: to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 4: Back absolutely lower, and then just kills me because I
Speaker 4: know the main problem, you know, was the drinking. And
Speaker 4: you know I told I don't have to have a drink.
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Speaker 1: and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis,
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Speaker 1: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
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Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.
Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our
Speaker 1: fellow travelers.
Speaker 3: So, Hi Guy, Hey Lourie, what do we have today?
Speaker 1: Today? We have a letter about a breakup and some regret,
Speaker 1: and it goes like this, Dear therapists, My girlfriend and
Speaker 1: I recently split up after a one year relationship. This
Speaker 1: is my second long term relationship, the other lasted about
Speaker 1: three years. Yet I find myself way more upset about
Speaker 1: the breakup this time around. The worst part of it
Speaker 1: all is that we are both still in love with
Speaker 1: each other, but because of a few of my actions,
Speaker 1: we have split up. Now we have been broken up
Speaker 1: for close to three weeks, and I am wondering whether
Speaker 1: or not you think I should just shut the door
Speaker 1: on a comeback. I understand that what I did was wrong,
Speaker 1: like saying rude things to her when I would be drunk,
Speaker 1: and that caused her sadness. But I also know that
Speaker 1: she still loves me and is also extremely broken up
Speaker 1: about this. She says she needs time to heal, but
Speaker 1: I also don't want her moving on and finding someone else.
Speaker 1: She tells me that I'm her first real love. So
Speaker 1: I just have this feeling of hope for a reconciliation
Speaker 1: that I'm holding on to. A lot of issues from
Speaker 1: my first relationship have carried over to this one, and
Speaker 1: it's been unfair to her, and I understand that. But
Speaker 1: a lot of the issues are things that I just
Speaker 1: came to terms with and I'm starting to understand now.
Speaker 1: Thank you all for your help.
Speaker 3: Mark Well, this issue of couples who break up and
Speaker 3: want to consider trying again is really common and we
Speaker 3: see that a lot in our therapy offices. And the
Speaker 3: principle that's the most important is if you're going to
Speaker 3: do it again, A both people have to want to,
Speaker 3: but B you have to figure out what wasn't working
Speaker 3: and how A you're going to do it differently. Just
Speaker 3: one thing to do things again, but not really understanding
Speaker 3: what needs to be different and what to change almost
Speaker 3: inevitably leads to the same problems happening and the breakup
Speaker 3: just happening again.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, And he said he's just coming to
Speaker 1: terms with those things now to one thing to have
Speaker 1: the insight, it's another thing to be able to act
Speaker 1: on it. So we always like to say that insight
Speaker 1: is the booby prize of therapy. That you can have
Speaker 1: all the insight in the world, but if you don't
Speaker 1: make changes out in the world, the insight is useless.
Speaker 1: So is he ready to use the insight that he
Speaker 1: has and put it into action in the relationship? And
Speaker 1: what is she willing to do? How much time is
Speaker 1: she willing to invest in this as he tries to
Speaker 1: come to terms with some things from the past, right?
Speaker 3: And are they able to work together to navigate these waters,
Speaker 3: because they're going to have to communicate and be very
Speaker 3: clear about how to avoid the icebergs that are already
Speaker 3: felled them once. So let's go talk to him and
Speaker 3: see what this is about.
Speaker 1: Let's do that.
Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after
Speaker 3: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench
Speaker 3: and this is Deo Therapist. So Mark, welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Thank you guys for having me and taking
Speaker 4: time You're very welcome, Mark.
Speaker 3: Mark, tell us a little bit about the relationship, how
Speaker 3: you met, how old you were, how it went, and
Speaker 3: where things are today.
Speaker 4: Sure, so we met summer of twenty nineteen. I was
Speaker 4: twenty four, she was twenty two.
Speaker 5: So to your.
Speaker 4: Difference, she knew who I was because we went to
Speaker 4: the same school. One of our mutual friends like introduced
Speaker 4: us right off the bat, like we had a connection.
Speaker 4: It's like we hung out towards the end of that summer,
Speaker 4: and then she was going back to school. I was
Speaker 4: coming off like a longer, like three year relationship. I
Speaker 4: was probably six months removed from this relationship at this point.
Speaker 4: I necessarily wasn't ready for another relationship. So she goes
Speaker 4: back to school. We still communicate. She starts like leaving
Speaker 4: school during weekends like to come see me. Clearly, it's like,
Speaker 4: what's progressing more than either of us have pretty much expected.
Speaker 4: So then we fast forward to the next summer, and
Speaker 4: we both had rental houses for the summer near each other.
Speaker 4: We're spending every weekend together. I would just stay down
Speaker 4: there and make a long commute in the morning. I
Speaker 4: would drive like an hour to work, an hour back.
Speaker 4: You know, so they almost like living together at this point.
Speaker 4: We were together all summer. Not official of course, that
Speaker 4: came at the end of the summer, when like we
Speaker 4: were like, yeah, all right, we could uh take this
Speaker 4: to the next step.
Speaker 1: You know when you say not official, you had been
Speaker 1: dating for a year at that point and it was
Speaker 1: still not official.
Speaker 4: No, No, we were, I would say, exclusive to each other,
Speaker 4: you know, talking every day, so you know everything about
Speaker 4: the title. I feel like the title at this point
Speaker 4: was just like something in my head, like I had
Speaker 4: gone through a really long relationship that didn't pan out,
Speaker 4: and it was like a super stressful situation for me.
Speaker 4: So I just felt like with the title came all
Speaker 4: these added expectations and all this external pressure that I
Speaker 4: wasn't ready for.
Speaker 1: Sounds like you were dating for about a year in
Speaker 1: this way where it wasn't really defined what actually made
Speaker 1: it official between the two of you, where it was
Speaker 1: directly communicated between the two of you that it was official.
Speaker 4: What changed that was just like simply me like asking
Speaker 4: her to be my girlfriend. Our day to day nothing
Speaker 4: really changed, you know. We talked all day every day,
Speaker 4: We hung out every weekend. After the summer ended, our
Speaker 4: leases ended, for that for the summer, and then she
Speaker 4: was moving out because she had graduated school at this point.
Speaker 4: So basically throughout that whole process, I was, you know,
Speaker 4: there helping her every step of the way, like I
Speaker 4: was building all the furniture for her house. At this point,
Speaker 4: our relationship was gone, you know, I'd say, very well.
Speaker 4: So fast forward a few weeks after that. This is
Speaker 4: where like our issues like arise. One night when we
Speaker 4: were out drinking, I got a little too drunk and
Speaker 4: then I said some like mean things to her, Like
Speaker 4: I had gotten really drunk and for some reason I
Speaker 4: had called her slot.
Speaker 5: These weren't like.
Speaker 4: Thoughts I have of her, like I think the most
Speaker 4: of her. I don't know where that came from at
Speaker 4: this time, and obviously she was super upsett me, like
Speaker 4: how could you say that to me?
Speaker 5: Like you're dating me?
Speaker 4: Like why would you say that? And like I didn't
Speaker 4: have any you know, explanation. I had no idea where
Speaker 4: that came from.
Speaker 1: Had that ever happened before where you drink too much
Speaker 1: and said things that you regretted later and that were
Speaker 1: kind of inexplicable to you.
Speaker 4: Back in school, I mean, it would happen, but like
Speaker 4: I never had said that to my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 1: When it happened back in school, what did you say?
Speaker 4: And to whom it would just be like my friends,
Speaker 4: Like we would just like get mad and get an argument,
Speaker 4: just like it was never never anything to this point,
Speaker 4: you know, never anything like a like a personal attack
Speaker 4: like that. It was never something like I had to
Speaker 4: wake up the next day and like I was like, wow,
Speaker 4: I can't.
Speaker 1: Believe, like I said that, did it happen often or
Speaker 1: how often would you say it would happen?
Speaker 5: Not often? Not often at all?
Speaker 1: And with her, was this the first time that this
Speaker 1: had happened.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was the first time this happened.
Speaker 4: And then I guess like two or three weeks after that,
Speaker 4: it happened again, and it got to the point it
Speaker 4: happened like four times, five times, and obviously like she
Speaker 4: was fed up this whole time, like she was trying
Speaker 4: to get me to go to therapy because we realized,
Speaker 4: like my first relationship there was like a lot of
Speaker 4: it just like wasn't a healthy relationship at all.
Speaker 5: And that was my first ever relationship.
Speaker 1: After it happened the first time, how did the two
Speaker 1: you talk about it and move past that?
Speaker 4: She was obviously very upset. I apologize to her. I
Speaker 4: told her, like, it won't happen again. Obviously that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: So after it happened the second time, what happened between
Speaker 1: the two of you. I want to hear what happened
Speaker 1: each time and how the two of you dealt with it.
Speaker 4: The second time, she got super upset. I apologize. I said, like,
Speaker 4: I know, I said it would have happened. I don't
Speaker 4: know why it happened. And then after the second time
Speaker 4: is when I started going to therapy, actually because I realized.
Speaker 4: I told her, I was like, listen, I'm gonna go
Speaker 4: with therapy. I'm going to try to like get to
Speaker 4: the rud of this problem. Like, clearly there's something you
Speaker 4: know going on.
Speaker 3: Did you consider motivating the drinking since it was directly
Speaker 3: tied to of a drinking.
Speaker 5: Yes, and it didn't work.
Speaker 4: But now ever, since you know, we broke up for
Speaker 4: like this last you know, it's close to two months now,
Speaker 4: the drinking has been very limited. I've you know, keeping
Speaker 4: control of myself. I'm you know, doing things that my
Speaker 4: therapist just told me to do. And I've let her
Speaker 4: know too, and you know, she does say, she's proud
Speaker 4: of me, like or the progress I've made.
Speaker 1: Was the drinking something that had been problematic for you
Speaker 1: before this?
Speaker 4: I'd say I would definitely always have, you know, been
Speaker 4: a drinker. Just the environment I'm in, people I go
Speaker 4: out whatever, like, you know, we're very like social group,
Speaker 4: so I definitely, like I'm exposed to it a lot.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like when you were drinking, that you
Speaker 1: were drinking to a point that you would not be
Speaker 1: in control of yourself, that that was a regular thing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, honestly, as bad as it sound like, it kind
Speaker 4: of was to the point where it was like a
Speaker 4: regular thing. It's not like I would wake up and
Speaker 4: like want a drink, you know, it would just be
Speaker 4: a Friday Saturday thing.
Speaker 5: We go out all together.
Speaker 4: The thing that changed was in the summer, we me
Speaker 4: and her went out together all the time, and like
Speaker 4: I did drink then too, and she drinks as well.
Speaker 4: But it was never an issue. So that's like, why
Speaker 4: been so confused about the situation because one day it happened,
Speaker 4: and it's like it opened the gates and then led
Speaker 4: it happening multiple times.
Speaker 3: Was she able to tell you what because you don't
Speaker 3: have the recollection of what happened. Was she able to
Speaker 3: describe to you what happened that led you to kotoroslat
Speaker 3: In each of those cases.
Speaker 4: She would say like out of nowhere, like and I
Speaker 4: know one day it happened and my best friends were there,
Speaker 4: and so that was the first time it happened where
Speaker 4: other people like heard it. It was extremely embarrassing, Like
Speaker 4: it was just like really sad, you know, because then
Speaker 4: I had my best friend for like fifteen years. At
Speaker 4: this point, it's just been like I've never like seen
Speaker 4: you like say or do anything like that, Like that's
Speaker 4: so completely out of character for you.
Speaker 1: How long have you been seeing a therapist at this.
Speaker 5: Point about two months?
Speaker 1: And what has that been like for you in terms
Speaker 1: of understanding more about what might be going on.
Speaker 4: Honestly, I love it. It's just like good to talk to someone.
Speaker 4: And you know, therapy has never been something like I
Speaker 4: would like thought I would do myself, you know, I
Speaker 4: always thought I had everything pretty under control, but obviously that's.
Speaker 5: Not the case.
Speaker 4: It's definitely been good. It's a good outlet. I've been
Speaker 4: like journaling a lot, listening to the podcast that I've
Speaker 4: listened to all the episodes. You know, it's definitely been
Speaker 4: super helpful. I've realized a lot of the issues have
Speaker 4: stemmed from that first relationship I was in just because
Speaker 4: it was my first relationship, and like I was, I
Speaker 4: guess that's how I viewed how a relationship like that's
Speaker 4: like normal things, you know, when in reality it wasn't
Speaker 4: necessarily normal.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship?
Speaker 5: Sure, So it was my second year of college. I
Speaker 5: met this girl.
Speaker 4: I met her in class, and we were together on
Speaker 4: and off until a year after graduation pretty much, so
Speaker 4: like three years. It was a pretty crazy relationship. Like,
Speaker 4: for example, we started dating and literally the weekend we
Speaker 4: started dating, one of my friends was out with her
Speaker 4: and sent me pictures of her with like another guy already.
Speaker 4: So like the first weekend, right off the bat, my
Speaker 4: first like real real relationship, Like that's what I was
Speaker 4: like greeted by, you know, and that was like lingered
Speaker 4: over our relationship the whole time, and like that gave
Speaker 4: me like some serious trust issues.
Speaker 3: Well how did you handle that? When that happened?
Speaker 4: I got the pictures and like I it was late
Speaker 4: at night, I couldn't sleep all night. The next day,
Speaker 4: she was actually working. I drove to her job to
Speaker 4: talk to her about it. She blamed on her being
Speaker 4: too drunk and like she didn't remember it, and I
Speaker 4: was able to forgive her. But those trust is she
Speaker 4: was definitely lasted the whole relationship. I was always you know,
Speaker 4: questioning things, and like I never like fully trusted her.
Speaker 1: Did that girlfriend continue to hook up with other guys
Speaker 1: or was it a one time incident that left you
Speaker 1: feeling distrustful throughout the relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it was definitely a one time incident from
Speaker 4: what I know. Of course, we just like had a
Speaker 4: lot of issues in that relationship because she was a bartender,
Speaker 4: I like the popular bar school. I feel like that
Speaker 4: was like the cloud on that relationship for pretty much
Speaker 4: the whole time. Why was that a cloud, I guess
Speaker 4: just like insecurities, just like trust issues between us mutual.
Speaker 3: Did she have trust issues with you as well?
Speaker 4: No, not that I know of, I don't think so.
Speaker 4: I never like cheated on or did anything. You know,
Speaker 4: I always like gave her full access to anything she wanted.
Speaker 1: When you say you gave her full access to anything
Speaker 1: she wanted, was she questioning you?
Speaker 5: No blake?
Speaker 4: If she ever felt uneasy about something or like someone
Speaker 4: I would if she wanted to see certain text messages,
Speaker 4: I would show her, Like I never really had anything
Speaker 4: to hide from her in that.
Speaker 1: It sounds like she did have some trust issues if
Speaker 1: she was asking to see some text messages.
Speaker 4: She never did specifically, but like as a way for
Speaker 4: me to prove, you know, my innocence, not that she
Speaker 4: was like assuming I was doing things.
Speaker 1: Well. I guess what I'm saying is in a relationship
Speaker 1: where there's trust, people are not needing to prove their innocence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it sounds like something happened between the two
Speaker 1: of you where she communicated in some way that she
Speaker 1: wasn't sure she could trust you, and then you said no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you can let me show you these text messages.
Speaker 4: I think it's more so my trust issues with her.
Speaker 4: I would ask to see something, and I guess as
Speaker 4: a way to just like even the plant field, like
Speaker 4: she would like catch me slippy anyway?
Speaker 3: You know? Did she have transparency as well?
Speaker 5: Man?
Speaker 3: But she's saying, sure, here's my phone, whatever you want.
Speaker 5: Yeah she did.
Speaker 3: So what was other than that first weekend? What else
Speaker 3: was happening there that maintained the distress.
Speaker 4: Well, for example, one time I saw a text from
Speaker 4: one of her coworkers and I asked her, like if
Speaker 4: I could see more about it, and then like when
Speaker 4: I looked into the phone, it was like the asking
Speaker 4: her to go on a date and like her saying
Speaker 4: like yeah, And then when I questioned her about it,
Speaker 4: she was just like, oh no, like we never did that,
Speaker 4: like we're just like friends.
Speaker 5: She never did go on this date, but like, no
Speaker 5: one does this, like no one texts your friends.
Speaker 3: She said yes to the date, So that's the problem. Yeah, right,
Speaker 3: so there was definitely stuff.
Speaker 5: That was going on, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: And how did you deal with that with her?
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm gonna lookout for this coworker, Like
Speaker 4: I started hanging out with her friend grow more, and
Speaker 4: like I eventually was friends with him, but like it
Speaker 4: was still just something uneasy to see that.
Speaker 3: But you were friends with a guy who asked your
Speaker 3: girlfriend out, well he knew you were with him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like not like best friends, but like if I
Speaker 4: went to an event with her friends, like he would
Speaker 4: be there.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you said there was that one incident
Speaker 1: which happened early on, and then you said there was
Speaker 1: nothing else that would make you distrust her throughout the relationship.
Speaker 1: And yet here's an example. Somebody asked her out, which
Speaker 1: that's fine because that's not her doing. But then she
Speaker 1: said yes, And whether she went or not is kind
Speaker 1: of irrelevant because she said yes to a date. So
Speaker 1: it sounds like there was more than one incident, and
Speaker 1: can you tell us about others?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 4: So the kid that she cheated on me with that
Speaker 4: first weekend, he came to school with us, so, like
Speaker 4: we would see him around like a fair amount, so
Speaker 4: he was always like obviously like on the back of
Speaker 4: the mind, she like made it clear she was interested,
Speaker 4: blocked him on everything. But there would be times where
Speaker 4: she'd be bartending and I would see him like go
Speaker 4: up here and talk to her, and obviously I would react,
Speaker 4: come on, like what are you doing and she's like, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm just doing my job, when in reality like it
Speaker 4: to me, obviously, it seems like it was more than that.
Speaker 1: When you saw the text that she had said yes
Speaker 1: to the date, what was the conversation like between the
Speaker 1: two of you. So she said, well, I didn't go
Speaker 1: on it, so it's okay, but obviously it wasn't okay.
Speaker 5: With you.
Speaker 1: How did you talk to her about that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I pretty much just like made it clear,
Speaker 4: like I was, like, no one says yes to go
Speaker 4: on a daily It's not like a like a friendly
Speaker 4: joke or something like that. And she like understood why.
Speaker 4: I was like disappointed and mad at her about it.
Speaker 4: And I mean after that, nothing really came of it.
Speaker 5: I just like let it go.
Speaker 1: And you know, did she apologize to you and did
Speaker 1: she understand why this was creating distrust?
Speaker 5: Yes, she did apologize.
Speaker 4: I was mad at her for like a week or so,
Speaker 4: if I remember correctly, and she definitely apologized and like
Speaker 4: felt really bad about it.
Speaker 3: The thing is, you're dating and popular about tender who's
Speaker 3: at the center of the social scene. And so there
Speaker 3: are these two guys, the guy she hooked up with
Speaker 3: and the other guy from work that you know there
Speaker 3: was a hook up in a flirtation with, and you
Speaker 3: even saw in social events. The other guy go up
Speaker 3: to her and she cames, well, understanding my job, he's
Speaker 3: coming up to the bar. I got to talk to him,
Speaker 3: and she's about thender. You got to see a lot
Speaker 3: of guys talking to her. That had to be a
Speaker 3: question in your mind every time she's talking to someone,
Speaker 3: what about this one? What about this one? Did you
Speaker 3: manage that over the relationship?
Speaker 4: Yeah, so obviously that's where a lot of our problems,
Speaker 4: you know, came from.
Speaker 5: In that relationship.
Speaker 4: It was never easy, but eventually, like it got to
Speaker 4: me that it's her job, and I had to trust
Speaker 4: her as much as I could. A lot of the
Speaker 4: nights I was there at the barrow, it was never
Speaker 4: anything like out of the ordinary, Like at that point
Speaker 4: I had just become accustomed to it.
Speaker 3: But did you then become accustomed to it and were
Speaker 3: able to trust her, because you're kind of saying I
Speaker 3: became accustomed to the fact that this is going on,
Speaker 3: that that's part of her job. But I still had
Speaker 3: trust issues throughout. You still had the discomfort even if
Speaker 3: you felt, well, I can't voice it all the time
Speaker 3: because you know, that's part of her job. But it
Speaker 3: sounded like he was still uncomfortable by that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say that it was pretty much always
Speaker 4: the case. As time, you know, I moved on between
Speaker 4: us and we spent more time together and we did
Speaker 4: all these things together. Like I kind of just didn't
Speaker 4: forget about it, But I just like wouldn't let it
Speaker 4: affect me as much, but in the back of my
Speaker 4: mind that was always like a problem for me.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the rest of the relationship and what
Speaker 1: was going on while this trust issue was happening, What
Speaker 1: was going well? Were there other issues that were not
Speaker 1: going well?
Speaker 4: So besides you know the mistrust, I thought our relationship
Speaker 4: was pretty good. We spent a lot of time together
Speaker 4: at school, like we pretty much like lived together. We
Speaker 4: both graduated, and then I guess that's when it started
Speaker 4: like going downhill for good.
Speaker 1: So up to the point of graduation, you felt like
Speaker 1: the trust issue was kind of in the background at
Speaker 1: that point and things were going well and you imagined
Speaker 1: that you would continue dating and maybe even possibly end
Speaker 1: up together.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. Her family loved me, and my family
Speaker 4: loved her. It was definitely pretty good. We had we
Speaker 4: broke up a few times. We took small breaks, but
Speaker 4: like we would always find our way back together.
Speaker 6: Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You kind of tossed
Speaker 6: that out there. We broke up a few times. So
Speaker 6: you're saying two things. You're saying one things were going
Speaker 6: really well, and the other thing is, oh, yeah, and
Speaker 6: we broke up a few times, So tell us about
Speaker 6: this few times.
Speaker 4: It would be like for small amounts of time, like
Speaker 4: a week, two weeks. The longest one was I guess
Speaker 4: this is another important thing to tron. To start the rellianship,
Speaker 4: she had had a boyfriend in high school that she
Speaker 4: dated for I think two years, and she was dating him,
Speaker 4: I believe her first year of school. So this was
Speaker 4: before I even knew her. So when I came into
Speaker 4: the picture, I had known of the X And in
Speaker 4: the beginning, we weren't together right off the bat, so
Speaker 4: I remember we were leaving. She told me she was like,
Speaker 4: I don't think I could keep doing this like I have,
Speaker 4: you know, my ex, and so she went and visited
Speaker 4: him in another state during this win a break. So
Speaker 4: then a month after that she pretty much like came
Speaker 4: back to me and was like, yeah, that's like done,
Speaker 4: I want to be with you.
Speaker 1: That was the start of your relationship.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then after that, like when we when she finally
Speaker 4: said that to me, that's like when I started taking
Speaker 4: in a very serious and then the weekend after then
Speaker 4: that happened. So definitely a rough start to it.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the other breakups, the times that you
Speaker 1: you said you broke up a few times, sure, tell
Speaker 1: us about those.
Speaker 5: So it would just be like, you know, we would
Speaker 5: be arguing a lot.
Speaker 4: She wouldn't like how I acted if I saw her
Speaker 4: like talking to a certain guy when in my mind,
Speaker 4: like I had reason to you know, doubt what like
Speaker 4: what she's actually doing.
Speaker 3: So what would happen? Who broke up with whom in
Speaker 3: that situation?
Speaker 5: One time I broke up with her, another time she
Speaker 5: broke up with me.
Speaker 1: And did she talk to you about why this was
Speaker 1: upsetting her? That maybe she felt controlled or she felt
Speaker 1: like you were not giving her enough space, that she
Speaker 1: wanted you to trust her, and you were kind of
Speaker 1: monitoring her and being at the bar and you know
Speaker 1: kind of like her chaperone as opposed to her boyfriend.
Speaker 4: So basically, yeah, she would just like not appreciate, like
Speaker 4: me getting mad about certain things. Like her response was
Speaker 4: always like it's my job, Like it's my job.
Speaker 1: What exactly was she doing that would upset you when
Speaker 1: she would say it's my job.
Speaker 4: The way she would talk to some of the guys,
Speaker 4: she would like call them close to the bar, like
Speaker 4: lean over the bar and like talking to her obviously
Speaker 4: like it's a loud bar Like I understand this to
Speaker 4: the point, but there was definitely like some people that
Speaker 4: I was just like a little worried about.
Speaker 3: Because of the buddy language.
Speaker 5: Yeah, just like it looks like flirting, you know.
Speaker 3: So she would call them over sometimes, not like they
Speaker 3: would go over and talk to her and she would
Speaker 3: talk to them, but sometimes she might actually call them over. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you said we always found that way back, which is
Speaker 3: kind of a romantic way to think about it. But
Speaker 3: what happened to how did you get back? Who would
Speaker 3: apologize to whom? Who would approach him?
Speaker 4: The time I broke up with her, I know, like
Speaker 4: she reached out to me and just like said like, oh,
Speaker 4: like she missed me, and you know, she wants to
Speaker 4: work on things, so we could try again and things
Speaker 4: would be different this time, you know, and it would
Speaker 4: never really change.
Speaker 1: Did the two of you ever talk about what specifically
Speaker 1: would be different or it was just a vague things
Speaker 1: will be different.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was just pretty much just like vague.
Speaker 4: At this point, I was, you know, younger, I wasn't
Speaker 4: into the therapy, Like I wasn't like really trying to
Speaker 4: like look into like the issues and like find the
Speaker 4: root and all that. That's why I think I've brought,
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of that stuff from that first
Speaker 4: relationship into this last one. You know, like I said
Speaker 4: the letter, I'm feel like I'm a lot more upset
Speaker 4: about this one than I was that first one being over,
Speaker 4: and that first one was much longer time together.
Speaker 1: So how did this relationship finally end?
Speaker 4: After like a while together? We graduated a few months
Speaker 4: after that. I kind of just like we weren't seeing
Speaker 4: each other as much because we weren't super close to
Speaker 4: each other anymore. You know, I'd see her like every
Speaker 4: weekend if that, sometimes not even that, and it just
Speaker 4: felt like it kind of just like ran its course.
Speaker 4: I went to her house and we just like sat
Speaker 4: down and we just talked, and then we decided to
Speaker 4: go our separate ways.
Speaker 5: You know. After that, we didn't I haven't really been
Speaker 5: in contact.
Speaker 3: You said, do you think you carried over stuff from
Speaker 3: that first relationship to the second one? What specifically did
Speaker 3: you think you carried over there?
Speaker 5: I guess a bit of insecurity.
Speaker 4: After that relationship, that fresh relationship had ended, Like I
Speaker 4: started learning more and more stuff, Like every time I
Speaker 4: had a problem in that relationship, and I would bring
Speaker 4: it up. She would just like think, it's me like
Speaker 4: overthinking and like bugging out about things.
Speaker 3: And so the insecurity, how did it manifest in your
Speaker 3: next relationship?
Speaker 4: I would always like overthink pretty much every situation. If
Speaker 4: she went out for a while and like didn't answer
Speaker 4: me for like an hour or two, like I would
Speaker 4: just like text her and be like are you okay?
Speaker 5: Like are you doing anything? And she never did anything,
Speaker 5: and it was just like pretty unfaired her.
Speaker 3: So the trust issue is what, Carrie, doova really significantly
Speaker 3: for you?
Speaker 4: Yeah, just like being able to like fully trust her
Speaker 4: and like she didn't do anything to me to break
Speaker 4: that trust in the first place.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what it
Speaker 1: was like growing up for you, what your parents' relationship
Speaker 1: was like, just a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 5: My parents have been together my whole life. My mom
Speaker 5: lived in Cuba. She moved here when she was eighteen
Speaker 5: years old.
Speaker 4: My dad definitely drank a lot while I was younger,
Speaker 4: so I'd hear a lot of fights between them. I
Speaker 4: would later find out like my dad had a pretty
Speaker 4: serious like drug.
Speaker 5: Problem as well.
Speaker 4: And so when I was a senior in high school,
Speaker 4: I got like called out of school. My brother picked
Speaker 4: me up and once my grandparents' house, and like they
Speaker 4: pretty much like sat me down, like just like up
Speaker 4: ended my whole world.
Speaker 5: They told me like this whole thing that.
Speaker 4: Had happened with my dad and that like I'm not
Speaker 4: going to be seeing him anymore. And so that was
Speaker 4: like a pretty big deal. He decided he had to
Speaker 4: go to rehab, so he like left for about a
Speaker 4: month or so, and then he came back and ever
Speaker 4: since then he's been completely sober. He doesn't drink anymore,
Speaker 4: doesn't do anything. Him and my mom never split up.
Speaker 4: My mom stood by his side during, you know, even
Speaker 4: the bad times. So that's definitely something I saw. But
Speaker 4: this is something I've talked to my other therapist about
Speaker 4: as well. This was like a complete shock to me.
Speaker 4: The one person like I looked up to in my life,
Speaker 4: Like you found this out and like I had no idea.
Speaker 5: It completely blinds side of.
Speaker 3: Me when's the family involved in the rehab, But a
Speaker 3: lot of the times family is brought in, especially when
Speaker 3: their adults. You were eighteen, I think at that point
Speaker 3: was you are part of that was that disgusted.
Speaker 5: I went and visited him two times when he was
Speaker 5: in there.
Speaker 3: Did you and he talk about it? Did he talk
Speaker 3: to you about what was going on?
Speaker 4: Yeah, we had like pretty serious conversations about it after,
Speaker 4: and we have a great relationship now.
Speaker 5: Him and my mom are obviously stood together there.
Speaker 4: They're better than I've ever been ever since he pretty
Speaker 4: much like came back from that. They rarely fight, nothing
Speaker 4: like it.
Speaker 5: Used to be.
Speaker 3: And his issue was with alcohol and what drugs, cocaine,
Speaker 3: And the fact that he had those issues with alcohol
Speaker 3: and cocaine. Did that give you any misgivings about your
Speaker 3: own you, so any warning about I need to be
Speaker 3: closoert about my relationship with alcohol and with drugs because
Speaker 3: I have it with my dad and I've seen what
Speaker 3: happened to him.
Speaker 4: Obviously it was It's always something that's been on my mind.
Speaker 4: But like obviously I continue to do it. Now is
Speaker 4: when I'm like realizing that, like you know, I'm getting older,
Speaker 4: I need to like start being more responsible and uh,
Speaker 4: like I'm taking it a lot more serious than I
Speaker 4: ever had before. Back then I was in school, Like
Speaker 4: I want that fun, you know. I tried to not
Speaker 4: let that like control me or make his decisions be
Speaker 4: a reflection on me. But after this, all this has happened,
Speaker 4: like now I'm realizing that, like I need to cut
Speaker 4: it down, and I have been doing so for the
Speaker 4: last few weekends.
Speaker 1: Now what does it mean by cutting it down? Because
Speaker 1: everybody has a different definition of that.
Speaker 4: Sure, Sure, Now I go out and have you know,
Speaker 4: three beers, four beers. You know, my friends have all
Speaker 4: all continue to you know, drink as they used to,
Speaker 4: because none of them, you know, they're all fine. But myself,
Speaker 4: like I just like am pacing myself, you know, mixing
Speaker 4: waters if I have to. But I haven't been drunk
Speaker 4: in the last month, and that's been you know, it's
Speaker 4: been a while since I've gone that long.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you stayed? Given that you were
Speaker 1: on edge so much of the time during that relationship.
Speaker 5: I remember feeling.
Speaker 4: Like we're just like always thinking to myself, like why
Speaker 4: I can't I mean to graduate, so like she's done
Speaker 4: with this bartiding job, and you know, you know, so
Speaker 4: like that was kind of something I held on to,
Speaker 4: and like.
Speaker 5: She was also excited.
Speaker 4: She would say to me like, oh, I can't wait,
Speaker 4: like when we're done and I get like my full
Speaker 4: time job, and like we just don't have to deal
Speaker 4: with this anymore. So that was definitely something we both
Speaker 4: you know, thought about.
Speaker 1: But then it happened. You graduated, she wasn't a bartender anymore,
Speaker 1: and so at that point you said, that was when
Speaker 1: you split up. So what do you think happened there where?
Speaker 1: This was this time when this big kind of elephant
Speaker 1: in the room that existed between the two of you
Speaker 1: was going to go away and now the two of
Speaker 1: you could have more normalcy and see who you were
Speaker 1: to each other. But it sounds like you didn't want
Speaker 1: to explore that with each other once you had the
Speaker 1: freedom to do that.
Speaker 5: I was definitely excited about it. I think we both were.
Speaker 4: But you know, as time passed, I guess, you know,
Speaker 4: not being together as much as we used to be,
Speaker 4: like the space we had more, a lot more space
Speaker 4: between us. I felt like the relationship at Roy's course,
Speaker 4: and it's like the spark was gone, you know, after all,
Speaker 4: like we've been through together, Like it was just like
Speaker 4: a It was a long relationship and it was definitely
Speaker 4: taxing on myself.
Speaker 1: This is so interesting to me. It reminds me a
Speaker 1: little bit of people who have some kind of obstacle
Speaker 1: in their relationship, like their long distance or you know,
Speaker 1: or someone is having an affair and they're finally going
Speaker 1: to leave their partner and the couple will now be
Speaker 1: free to be together. And then they've been waiting for that,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that they've been holding on to, and
Speaker 1: then they get that, and then they don't want it.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if part of the allure when I
Speaker 1: asked earlier why you stayed in this for so long,
Speaker 1: was that you couldn't really have her in the way
Speaker 1: you wanted to, and then when you maybe could, you
Speaker 1: could at least explore that you didn't want her anymore.
Speaker 1: And when we talk about the most recent relationship, I
Speaker 1: wonder if some that is what's being brought over, that
Speaker 1: there's something about you where part of you really wants
Speaker 1: to have a girlfriend and is that romantic and wants
Speaker 1: to have this kind of relationship, but another part of
Speaker 1: you isn't quite comfortable with it and sabotages it.
Speaker 5: In some way.
Speaker 4: Ye, So in the most recent relationship, at the start,
Speaker 4: she was the one that was like a lot more
Speaker 4: interested in me and wanting to pursue me. And at
Speaker 4: the beginning I was more hesitant on it. Like I
Speaker 4: got out of a slow relationship, I wasn't ready to
Speaker 4: jump into a new one yet. So in the beginning,
Speaker 4: like I definitely had my wall up, in my guard
Speaker 4: up for a longer time.
Speaker 5: And yeah, and eventually.
Speaker 4: I obviously like brought her in and then I thought
Speaker 4: it was great.
Speaker 1: Right, So consciously you quote unquote made it official and
Speaker 1: you took that leap. But then when you drink, the
Speaker 1: part of you that I think was maybe afraid of
Speaker 1: what this was made sure that it would not progress
Speaker 1: because you kept doing something that would push her away
Speaker 1: and you weren't intentionally doing it, you were drunk. But
Speaker 1: I think that you have these two parts of yourself.
Speaker 1: There's a part that really wants to be in a
Speaker 1: healthy relationship that feels good, and there's another part of
Speaker 1: you that just doesn't trust that someone's going to be
Speaker 1: there for you in that way that feels very scary,
Speaker 1: it's very anxiety provoking, and you don't ever want to
Speaker 1: be in that situation again. And even though this current
Speaker 1: person hasn't done anything to make you feel like she's
Speaker 1: not trustworthy, I think that you have this feeling inside,
Speaker 1: this question inside about whether somebody really wants you and
Speaker 1: just you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's pretty good.
Speaker 4: And you know, it's something I've talked about with my therapist,
Speaker 4: like how I feel like I'm self sabotaging it in
Speaker 4: a way.
Speaker 5: Just like you said, I agree.
Speaker 4: I think part of it is because like the people
Speaker 4: in my life that I fully trusted, you know, I
Speaker 4: just like haven't even been able to trust. First with
Speaker 4: my dad and everything that happened with that situation like
Speaker 4: that bombshell, and then with my first girlfriendly, I just
Speaker 4: like he wasn't even able to build up that trust
Speaker 4: with her.
Speaker 3: Do you know how to build trust with someone when
Speaker 3: you're dating them, because, for example, you said you didn't
Speaker 3: know what it was that led to you calling her
Speaker 3: a slut four times, But given what you're describing, truly,
Speaker 3: you can just be in a bus somewhere. You know,
Speaker 3: a guy could just pass by and ask her where
Speaker 3: the restroom is, and you turn around you see her
Speaker 3: talking to someone, and that might do it. Because one
Speaker 3: thing that's important in this kind of situation is to
Speaker 3: be super aware of what your triggers are. Have you
Speaker 3: come up with any other kinds of steps that you
Speaker 3: might take if this relationship were to continue to avoid
Speaker 3: those traps.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so.
Speaker 4: Like with this last relationship, I know, it's just to
Speaker 4: touch on your point a little bit. Like we were
Speaker 4: at one time and like a musual friend of ours
Speaker 4: like was talking to her, Like you said, like they
Speaker 4: got close to her ear because like we're in a
Speaker 4: bar and it's loud, and like I would just like
Speaker 4: have like a flashback like back at school, and I
Speaker 4: was just like I'd see myself getting angry and like
Speaker 4: I would just like try to control myself and then
Speaker 4: I would bring it up to her. She would just say,
Speaker 4: like you know him, like that he's my friend too, like,
Speaker 4: and there was actually nothing to be worried about. It
Speaker 4: was just kind of just like PTSD just like kicking
Speaker 4: in like attributing the last relationship to her, when in reality,
Speaker 4: it's obviously nothing that I had to be, you know,
Speaker 4: even worried about it all.
Speaker 1: When Guy was asking do you know how to build trust?
Speaker 1: I think we need to be clear about who you're
Speaker 1: trying to trust. In this case, you said, there's nothing
Speaker 1: she's done that would make you distrust her. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: reason that we can't trust someone is not that we
Speaker 1: don't trust them, it's that we don't trust that someone
Speaker 1: will love us. That we don't trust that we are lovable,
Speaker 1: that we are lovable enough to sustain someone over time
Speaker 1: in a monogamous relationship. And so it's not so much
Speaker 1: about trusting her, but it's about having trust in the
Speaker 1: idea that someone can love you. Does that resonate with
Speaker 1: you at all?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: As time goes on, like you just like questioned, like,
Speaker 4: am I enough? I'm an overthinker, And obviously you see
Speaker 4: and hear all these stories, you know, it's definitely like
Speaker 4: it's something that it's probably super hard to find someone
Speaker 4: that's gonna, you know, love me for.
Speaker 5: That long.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that would be hard?
Speaker 5: I just feel like.
Speaker 4: Everything that goes on like nowadays, it's just like hard
Speaker 4: to find someone that will be like committed to one
Speaker 4: person for a long period of time.
Speaker 3: And I think that with this lost girlfriend, there will
Speaker 3: be a trust issue on her end as well at
Speaker 3: this point, right because full times you said these things
Speaker 3: to her, and so she will also have a hard
Speaker 3: time trusting. What is the current status between the two
Speaker 3: of you? Are you in touch? You know this you
Speaker 3: wrote a letter about you know, can this work if
Speaker 3: we came back together, but that is that an option
Speaker 3: right now?
Speaker 5: We're not talking day to day right now.
Speaker 4: She's told me that she wants just like space to
Speaker 4: think about things, because she does say like at this like,
Speaker 4: I don't know how I could trust your word anymore,
Speaker 4: Like you've told me it was not gonna happen anymore.
Speaker 5: I don't blame her at all. Like She's completely right.
Speaker 4: I've also tried to make it clear like how I
Speaker 4: really feel about her, and I told her, you know,
Speaker 4: every day I'm working to get better. I'm you know,
Speaker 4: going to therapy. I'm trying to get to the root
Speaker 4: of all these issues so we could try to control
Speaker 4: it and hopefully if I'm giving a chance to never
Speaker 4: happen again.
Speaker 3: How do you feel about her?
Speaker 5: Absolutely love her.
Speaker 4: Just the way I feel about her is completely different
Speaker 4: from that first relationship, and that just kills me because
Speaker 4: I know the main problem, you know, was the drinking
Speaker 4: and what came after that. And you know, I told
Speaker 4: her I don't have to have a drink again. Like
Speaker 4: That's something I realized recently was that's not really important
Speaker 4: to me.
Speaker 5: I'm ready to like move on from this stage.
Speaker 1: See, I don't think the main problem was the drinking.
Speaker 1: I think the drinking brought out the problem. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: the problem was that you don't trust that someone can
Speaker 1: love you and sustain their love in you, that they're
Speaker 1: not going to lose interest, or that some shiny person
Speaker 1: out there won't take them away from you. And that's
Speaker 1: really the issue that whether it's this relationship or another
Speaker 1: relationship that you're going to have to deal with.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that sounds that sounds right.
Speaker 1: So at this point, is she saying I don't want
Speaker 1: to have any communication for the time being, or is
Speaker 1: there an opening there?
Speaker 4: She wants her space generally on day day, but then
Speaker 4: for example, yesterday she'll send me a picture of like
Speaker 4: a meal she cooked, because you know, we would cook together.
Speaker 4: And like Friday, you know, she sent me like a
Speaker 4: message like saying, oh, like I miss you, but I
Speaker 4: just know I just like I don't think we could be.
Speaker 5: Together right now.
Speaker 4: Not mixed messages, but like sometimes that we see each other,
Speaker 4: like they just casually talking and like bring bringing it back,
Speaker 4: you know, and that's kind of what it gives me
Speaker 4: hope that we could be together again.
Speaker 3: Does she know that you love her too?
Speaker 5: Yes, she says it back to me as well.
Speaker 3: Because I said that in that first chip that was
Speaker 3: never repaired, what happened that first weekend and before it
Speaker 3: was never repaired. And the one way that you repair
Speaker 3: those things is that you would have had to have
Speaker 3: known at that point, like how that happened, how she
Speaker 3: had out us up to do that, What she can
Speaker 3: say to you that will reassure you that she's got
Speaker 3: that under control, that whatever that was won't happen again,
Speaker 3: et cetera. And this current, this past girlfriend is most
Speaker 3: recent X is also in that position of Okay, you
Speaker 3: apologize for it the first time, said it wouldn't happen again,
Speaker 3: happened again, said it wouldn't happen again, happened again four times.
Speaker 3: I'm sure she has her friends and family saying how
Speaker 3: many times does it take? Which means that she doesn't
Speaker 3: have and you might not have iide yet, but she
Speaker 3: doesn't have yet a way to think about this in
Speaker 3: which she has an understanding of what it was that
Speaker 3: triggered it and what steps you are taking and can
Speaker 3: take to truly prevent that from happening again. So she
Speaker 3: would not feel that say for the relationship with you
Speaker 3: until she really had a good idea that oh, you
Speaker 3: know what, maybe that will work to give him a
Speaker 3: handle on it. Maybe that's something that would make a difference.
Speaker 4: So like every time I have a third session, if
Speaker 4: we come through it comes to your realization, like I'll
Speaker 4: just like send their message like letting you know, like hey,
Speaker 4: like this this and this, you know, after like the
Speaker 4: last two weekends, like I I just signed their investment, Like, hey,
Speaker 4: like just you now, like I'm completely sober. She would
Speaker 4: say like, yeah, I'm like proud of you, Like I'm
Speaker 4: happy you're doing all this. I'm keeping her in the
Speaker 4: loop about like the progress that's being made.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I know it's like takes time and it's not going
Speaker 4: to just happen overnight, but she definitely knows how committed
Speaker 4: I am to making any necessary changes.
Speaker 1: And that's a great first step. But I think what
Speaker 1: we're talking about is talking about your inner world with
Speaker 1: her in a way that you haven't yet.
Speaker 3: So Mark, we have some advice for you, and it's
Speaker 3: in two parts. The first part is this, we think that, yes,
Speaker 3: you got traumatized by that first relationship. For sure, it
Speaker 3: was very, very difficult, But we also think that there's
Speaker 3: a fundamental insecurity you have in which you are. We
Speaker 3: that the next guy that comes along, the next shiny
Speaker 3: object that comes along, whoever your ways, will go, oh,
Speaker 3: he's better, let's go over there. There is a basic
Speaker 3: I think in security, you feel that you can be
Speaker 3: loved fully and loyally in a trusting way just for
Speaker 3: who you are and for what you have to offer.
Speaker 3: We also think you have a lot to offer. We
Speaker 3: think you're a good guy, we think you're romantic in
Speaker 3: a very lovely way, and we're not sure that you're
Speaker 3: fully in touch with how much you have to offer.
Speaker 3: And so what we'd like you to do is an
Speaker 3: exercise that's called a self affirmation exercise, And what it
Speaker 3: is is that you write down a list of qualities
Speaker 3: that you know you have that are meaningful and meaningful
Speaker 3: in relationships, like the fact that you're a twenty six
Speaker 3: year old guy but you're going to therapy and you're
Speaker 3: gainfully employed, and you're loyal, and you're emotionally available, and
Speaker 3: you can explore your feelings and you're not afraid of
Speaker 3: talking about the relationship and how each of you feel
Speaker 3: in a situation. So there's a lot you have to
Speaker 3: offer that's not necessarily what most twenty six year old
Speaker 3: guys bring to the table. You do bring some of
Speaker 3: the regular stuff. You're a good looking guy, and you
Speaker 3: know how to have fun, and you can lead, and
Speaker 3: you can organize, and you can be social. You bring
Speaker 3: all of that to the table as well. And so
Speaker 3: we'd like you to make that list as exhaustively as
Speaker 3: you can. But if you want to have one hundred
Speaker 3: items on there, all the better. And then for every
Speaker 3: day in the next week, we'd like you to choose
Speaker 3: one of the items you think is most meaningful and
Speaker 3: that you embody most. You said your journal, we'd like
Speaker 3: you to write a couple of paragraphs at least about
Speaker 3: that item, one a day, about why it's meaningful, how
Speaker 3: you've embodied it or exhibited it in the past, how
Speaker 3: it's been received, how other people have appreciated it in
Speaker 3: the past, and how they might appreciate it in the future.
Speaker 3: And the idea there is to really remind yourself of
Speaker 3: what you have to offer that is strong, that is good,
Speaker 3: that is attractive, so that you feel more secure and
Speaker 3: that you feel like it's going to take a big
Speaker 3: man to outshine me here, so that you don't feel
Speaker 3: that everyone who leans over and whispers something to your
Speaker 3: girlfriend in a bar or in any setting is actually
Speaker 3: a threat. So that's the first part. What do you
Speaker 3: think about that? Yeah, for sure, I think that's something
Speaker 3: I can do. I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1: Great. And then we have a second part to the advice,
Speaker 1: and that's about dealing with the ex girlfriend.
Speaker 5: Can we give her name, sure, Niki.
Speaker 1: So we want you to have a conversation with Niki
Speaker 1: where you start off by saying, you must feel like
Speaker 1: giving me another chance would make you seem like such
Speaker 1: an idiot after the several chances that you've already given me.
Speaker 1: Because you've been through this before in another relationship where
Speaker 1: you ask for something and the person didn't regain your trust,
Speaker 1: you know what that's like yourself, and that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: be asking this of her if you hadn't gone through
Speaker 1: that from the other side yourself. So you understand the
Speaker 1: position that she's in. But the difference here in terms
Speaker 1: of what you're asking now is that you're really going
Speaker 1: through this process of understanding what is happening, and you
Speaker 1: want her to know that you own one hundred percent
Speaker 1: what happened, that she is not responsible for any of it,
Speaker 1: and that not only do you own it, but you're
Speaker 1: starting to understand the real reasons why you did that,
Speaker 1: what's going on, what has been happening for you, and
Speaker 1: that it's not just the drinking. It's not just I
Speaker 1: got drunk and this is what happens when I get drunk.
Speaker 1: It's having this very vulnerable conversation about the real reason,
Speaker 1: and the real reason is you will say to Nikki,
Speaker 1: I have a fear that I am not enough, and
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I had that fear. And part
Speaker 1: of it is that I was scarred by the relationship before,
Speaker 1: but part of it is that this is just something
Speaker 1: that I need to work on. This is something that
Speaker 1: I come with and that I don't want to bring
Speaker 1: into another relationship, and I certainly wouldn't want to bring
Speaker 1: into a new version of the relationship with you. So
Speaker 1: what I'm asking for is a reboot, given that I
Speaker 1: understand more about where this is coming from, that I
Speaker 1: own it completely, that I am working tirelessly on trying
Speaker 1: to figure this out, and that I also have some
Speaker 1: tools so that I can work on making this not happen.
Speaker 1: Like I know that being in a bar is very
Speaker 1: triggering for me. Right now and that maybe that would
Speaker 1: not be a good place for us to go on
Speaker 1: a date. What I'm proposing is, I would like to
Speaker 1: do a reboot where we take it one date at
Speaker 1: a time and we just reevaluate after every date. How
Speaker 1: did that go? How are we doing? Are we communicating
Speaker 1: with each other, no rushing, fully communicating, a real chance
Speaker 1: to get to know each other, not only again but
Speaker 1: differently from the way we did the first time. And
Speaker 1: that is my proposal. Would you go on a date
Speaker 1: with me in this new way? Now she may say yes,
Speaker 1: in which case the instructions are, if you go on
Speaker 1: the date with her, we would like you to notice
Speaker 1: how you're feeling on the date. We want you to
Speaker 1: monitor yourself. Oh did I just notice a cute guy
Speaker 1: walk by? And I got anxious? And by the way,
Speaker 1: we don't want this date to happen in a bar.
Speaker 1: So it might be that you take a walk together,
Speaker 1: you go to the beach, you have a picnic, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, You go to lunch together, and can
Speaker 1: you have fun together? And can you notice yourself? Can
Speaker 1: you notice when things are happening before you react to them,
Speaker 1: doing a lot of self talk? Oh, I noticed that
Speaker 1: she looked to the right and there was a cute
Speaker 1: guy there, and you being able to breathe through it
Speaker 1: right really noticing and when you get back from the date,
Speaker 1: to journal about what you noticed about you, not about
Speaker 1: what she did, what you noticed about you, and how
Speaker 1: you were able to steey more connected to her. Instead
Speaker 1: of going off into these stories that you create around
Speaker 1: what might be going on in her mind, we want
Speaker 1: you to really focus on what's going on in your
Speaker 1: mind and then challenge some of those beliefs. And if
Speaker 1: she says no to the date, we would like you
Speaker 1: to let her know that you completely understand why she
Speaker 1: is concerned about starting to do this reboot and let
Speaker 1: her know that at the same time that because you
Speaker 1: love her so much and because you're coming to all
Speaker 1: of these realizations that you can't be contact with her
Speaker 1: if you're not going to be doing this reboot with
Speaker 1: her at least for the next month, and so you
Speaker 1: want to go off and do the work that you
Speaker 1: need to do and let her do whatever she needs
Speaker 1: to do in terms of the healing she needs to do,
Speaker 1: and then ask her if it's okay if you could
Speaker 1: call her in a month just to see where the
Speaker 1: two of you are and if anything has changed, and
Speaker 1: you will hopefully have done a lot of work in
Speaker 1: that time, and maybe she'll have done some healing in
Speaker 1: that time. And if she says yes, then you'll call
Speaker 1: her in a month and you'll see can you do
Speaker 1: the reboot? Then maybe you don't even want to do
Speaker 1: the reboot. Then maybe you've come to a place where
Speaker 1: you this is not what you want to do, and
Speaker 1: maybe she doesn't want to do it. So maybe you
Speaker 1: both will want the same thing, maybe you will want
Speaker 1: different things, or maybe you both will say we don't
Speaker 1: want to pursue this, but it will take you out
Speaker 1: of that limbo that is very I think anxiety provoking
Speaker 1: about like, well, what she doing? Is she on the apps?
Speaker 1: Is she dating other people? What does that mean that
Speaker 1: she sent me this photo of dinner she was cooking.
Speaker 1: It will clarify something in a very direct way. What
Speaker 1: is our status right now? And what are we doing
Speaker 1: with each other? Does that make sense?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker 3: One quick addition, we want you to emphasize to her
Speaker 3: that Nikki, I'm not asking you to trust me, because
Speaker 3: you can't right now. I'm asking you to give me
Speaker 3: a chance to gain your trust. That's really all I'm
Speaker 3: asking And either I'll succeed and I think I might,
Speaker 3: or I won't. But I'm not asking you to come
Speaker 3: in blindly. I'm asking you to come in as a
Speaker 3: skeptic and give me a chance to regain your trust.
Speaker 1: And the philosophy behind the one date at a time
Speaker 1: is a little bit like people with addictions. They can't
Speaker 1: say I will never use again, but they can say
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this one day at a time.
Speaker 1: And so you're going to take it one date at
Speaker 1: a time as you're working on this, where you can
Speaker 1: manage that smaller chunk of on this one date, can
Speaker 1: I really tune into myself? Can I monitor my reactions
Speaker 1: to things? And then you do again on another day.
Speaker 1: And so you're not saying to her, I will never
Speaker 1: do this again. You're saying, if I do this kind
Speaker 1: of work, there's a much higher likelihood that I will
Speaker 1: never do this again.
Speaker 5: Yeah, awesome, Okay.
Speaker 1: Great, we look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 4: Awesome guys that I really appreciate the time. Thank you
Speaker 4: guys for the help.
Speaker 1: So I think this is one of those situations where
Speaker 1: you think it's a discreete issue like should I get
Speaker 1: back together with this girlfriend? But there are some underlying
Speaker 1: issue that is driving it. And here we have this
Speaker 1: idea that the other shoe is going to drop. First
Speaker 1: it happened with his father, the other shoe dropped, and
Speaker 1: then it happens with the first girlfriend. And he has
Speaker 1: this belief that you can't get too comfortable because the
Speaker 1: minute you get too comfortable, something bad will happen.
Speaker 3: And I think that what happened with his father was
Speaker 3: actually really important here because I think for Mark, the
Speaker 3: idea that if the person that you know so well,
Speaker 3: your father, you didn't know this about them, and you
Speaker 3: can suddenly be taken out of school and given this bombshell,
Speaker 3: then how can you trust people? And I think that
Speaker 3: combined with this insecurity that he came with that doesn't
Speaker 3: recognize his own strengths and what he has to offer,
Speaker 3: I think those things together, the dad, the experience with
Speaker 3: a girlfriend, and that insecurity have really set him up
Speaker 3: to have these issues in relationships, and he's going to
Speaker 3: have them until he deals with them. And I'm so
Speaker 3: glad that he's in therapy, and I'm so glad that
Speaker 3: he's really taking it seriously. You can see this is
Speaker 3: someone who wants to figure this out and who wants
Speaker 3: to do the work.
Speaker 1: That's true. After the second time that this happened, he
Speaker 1: went to therapy. His girlfriend said you need to go
Speaker 1: to therapy, and instead of hemming and huying or saying
Speaker 1: I'll just cut back on my drinking, he said yes,
Speaker 1: and he went to therapy. And I think that speaks volumes.
Speaker 1: And I hope that when he calls her, whether or
Speaker 1: not she decides to go on a date with him,
Speaker 1: that she can really take in what he's saying, because
Speaker 1: I think it's going to take a lot of courage
Speaker 1: for him to do that, and so I hope that
Speaker 1: it's received. Well, you're listening to Dear Therapists for my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. So, guy,
Speaker 1: we heard back from Mark, and let's hear what happened
Speaker 1: for him.
Speaker 5: Hi, Guy, Laurie hope all as well.
Speaker 4: So since our talk, I worked on the journaling exercise. Honestly,
Speaker 4: I found it to be extremely helpful. You know, these
Speaker 4: last few weeks have been extremely hard on me. You know,
Speaker 4: I've been very down on myself pretty much every day.
Speaker 4: It's just a hard time, and I just blamed myself
Speaker 4: every day for ruining the relationship, you know, something that
Speaker 4: was so great, something that I thought would be forever, and.
Speaker 5: My actions and my words closed too much harm.
Speaker 4: And yeah, it's been rough, but the journaling was great,
Speaker 4: you know, a nice little reminder that, you know, just
Speaker 4: something to pick myself up as opposed to putting myself down,
Speaker 4: which is something I just like found myself doing a
Speaker 4: lot recently. In terms of the conversation with NICKI, we
Speaker 4: had a pretty long conversation. I told her, I feel
Speaker 4: I told everything, and unfortunately she just did not want
Speaker 4: to go on a date. She just said she still
Speaker 4: needed space and that she was like upset and just
Speaker 4: can't get over like the words I said there.
Speaker 5: I don't blame her at all. I know it.
Speaker 4: You know that I heard her and it wasn't right
Speaker 4: and that's just not something you say to someone you
Speaker 4: care about.
Speaker 5: But hopefully could revisit this in a month, and.
Speaker 4: You know, maybe the space makes her realize something. I
Speaker 4: just can't give up on the hope, So we'll see
Speaker 4: what happens. Thank you guys so much for the help.
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it, and I did find it to
Speaker 4: be very helpful.
Speaker 5: Take care guys.
Speaker 1: It sounds like things are still really rough for him,
Speaker 1: and yet he found the conversation helpful. And I think
Speaker 1: that's because when we understand more about our role in
Speaker 1: a situation, and when we get more clear about what
Speaker 1: it's really about, it gives us a path forward. It
Speaker 1: might not be a path forward with NICKI, but it
Speaker 1: gives us a path forward.
Speaker 3: And I think that he needs a little bit of
Speaker 3: time to really employ self forgiveness. Sometimes you need to
Speaker 3: get a little bit more distant from things before you
Speaker 3: can look back and go, yes, I made mistakes, which
Speaker 3: he can see and accepts, and that he needs to
Speaker 3: be able to get to that place of self forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Well, right, I think the self forgiveness is so important
Speaker 1: because you can't make progress when you are self flagellating.
Speaker 1: And I don't think he can really do the work
Speaker 1: that he needs to do when he's in this place
Speaker 1: of blaming himself. You know, there's this saying hope is
Speaker 1: not a good strategy, so he needs to do more
Speaker 1: than hope. He keeps talking about hope, but I think
Speaker 1: what he needs to do is he needs to do
Speaker 1: the work and I think he's finally gotten the wake
Speaker 1: up call and now he just needs to act on it.
Speaker 3: So Mark, if you're listening, this is the time to
Speaker 3: practice self forgiveness and to really do that work.
Speaker 1: Next week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
Speaker 1: a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 7: I guess it's great to get into a relationship in
Speaker 7: a sense because then people ask you like about your history,
Speaker 7: and it's embarrassing one to be fifty three and single.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 7: When you mentioned that to people, they're always like shocked,
Speaker 7: and I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
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Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with
Speaker 3: us by go smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at
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