Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: a young man seeks our counsel on whether to try
Speaker 2: to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 3: Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
Speaker 3: know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
Speaker 3: you know I told I don't have to have a
Speaker 3: drink again.
Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, dignosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 2: So, Hi Guy, Hey Lourie, what do we have today?
Speaker 1: Today? We have a letter about a breakup and some regret,
Speaker 1: and it goes like this, Dear therapists, My girlfriend and
Speaker 1: I recently split up after a one year relationship. This
Speaker 1: is my second long term relationship. The other lasted about
Speaker 1: three years. Yet I find myself way more upset about
Speaker 1: the breakup this time around. The worst part of it
Speaker 1: all is that we are both still in love with
Speaker 1: each other, but because of a few of my actions,
Speaker 1: we have split up. Now, we have been broken up
Speaker 1: for close to three weeks, and I am wondering whether
Speaker 1: or not you think I should just shut the door
Speaker 1: on a comeback. I understand that what I did was wrong,
Speaker 1: like saying rude things to her when I would be drunk,
Speaker 1: and that caused her sadness. But I also know that
Speaker 1: she still loves me and is also extremely broken up
Speaker 1: about this. She says she needs time to heal, but
Speaker 1: I also don't want her moving on and finding someone else.
Speaker 1: She tells me that I'm her first real love. So
Speaker 1: I just have this feeling of hope for a reconciliation
Speaker 1: that I'm holding on to. A lot of issues from
Speaker 1: my first relationship have carried over to this one, and
Speaker 1: it's been unfair to her, and I understand that. But
Speaker 1: a lot of the issues are things that I just
Speaker 1: came to terms with and I'm starting to understand now.
Speaker 1: Thank you all for your help.
Speaker 2: Mark Well, this issue of couples who break up and
Speaker 2: want to consider trying again is really common and we
Speaker 2: see that a lot in our therapy offices. And the
Speaker 2: principle that's the most important is if you're going to
Speaker 2: do it again, a both people have to want to
Speaker 2: but B you have to figure out what wasn't working
Speaker 2: and how are you going to do it differently? Just
Speaker 2: one thing, to do things again, but not really understanding
Speaker 2: what needs to be different and what to change almost
Speaker 2: inevitably leads to the same problems happening and the breakup
Speaker 2: just happening again.
Speaker 1: Well, that's right, and he said he's just coming to
Speaker 1: terms with those things now to one thing to have
Speaker 1: the insight, it's another thing to be able to act
Speaker 1: on it. So we always like to say that insight
Speaker 1: is the booby prize of therapy. That you can have
Speaker 1: all the insight in the world, but if you don't
Speaker 1: make changes out in the world, the insight is useless.
Speaker 1: So is he ready to use the insight that he
Speaker 1: has and put it into action in the relationship? And
Speaker 1: what is she willing to do? How much time is
Speaker 1: she willing to invest in this as he tries to
Speaker 1: come to terms with some things from the past.
Speaker 2: Right, And are they able to work together to navigate
Speaker 2: these waters, because they're going to have to communicate and
Speaker 2: be very clear about how to avoid the icebergs that
Speaker 2: already failed them once. So let's go talk to him
Speaker 2: and see what this is about.
Speaker 1: Let's do that.
Speaker 2: You're listening to deotherapists from Iheartradial. We'll be back after
Speaker 2: a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench
Speaker 2: and this is THEO Therapist. So Monk, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you guys for having me and taking time.
Speaker 1: You're very welcome.
Speaker 2: Mark Monk tell us a little bit about the relationship,
Speaker 2: how you met, how old you were, how it went,
Speaker 2: and were things are today?
Speaker 3: Sure? So we met summer of twenty nineteen. I was
Speaker 3: twenty four, she was twenty two, so two your difference.
Speaker 3: She knew who I was because we went to the
Speaker 3: same school. One of our mutual friends like introduced us
Speaker 3: right off the bat, like we had a connection. It's
Speaker 3: like we hung out towards the end of that summer,
Speaker 3: and then she was going back to school. I was
Speaker 3: coming off like a longer, like three year relationship. I
Speaker 3: was probably six months removed from this relationship at this point.
Speaker 3: I necessarily wasn't ready for another leadership. So she goes
Speaker 3: back to school. We still communicate. She starts like leaving
Speaker 3: school during weekends like to come see me. Clearly, it's like,
Speaker 3: what's progressing more than either of us have pretty much expected.
Speaker 3: So then we fast forward to the next summer, and
Speaker 3: we both had rental houses for the summer near each other.
Speaker 3: We're spending every weekend together. I would just stay down
Speaker 3: there and make a long commute in the morning. I
Speaker 3: would drive like an hour to work an hour back,
Speaker 3: you know, So they almost like living together at this point.
Speaker 3: We were together all summer, not official of course that
Speaker 3: came at the end of the summer, when like we
Speaker 3: were like, yeah, all right, we could uh take this
Speaker 3: to the next step.
Speaker 1: You know when you say not official, you had been
Speaker 1: dating for a year at that point and it was
Speaker 1: still not official.
Speaker 3: No, No, we were, I would say, exclusive to each other,
Speaker 3: you know, talking every day, so you know everything about
Speaker 3: the title. I feel like the title at this point
Speaker 3: was just like something in my head, like I had
Speaker 3: gone through a really long relationship that didn't pan out,
Speaker 3: and it was like a super stressful situation for me.
Speaker 3: So I just felt like with the title came all
Speaker 3: these added expectations and all this external pressure that I
Speaker 3: wasn't ready for.
Speaker 1: Sounds like you were dating for about a year in
Speaker 1: this way where it wasn't really defined what actually made
Speaker 1: it official between the two of you, where it was
Speaker 1: directly communicated between the two of you that it was official.
Speaker 3: What changed that was just like simply me like asking
Speaker 3: her to be my girlfriend. Our day to day nothing
Speaker 3: really changed, you know, we talked all day every day,
Speaker 3: We hung out every weekend. After the summer ended, our
Speaker 3: leases ended for that for the summer, and then she
Speaker 3: was moving out because she had graduated school at this point.
Speaker 3: So basically throughout that whole process, I was, you know,
Speaker 3: there helping her every step of the way, like I
Speaker 3: was building all furniture for her house. At this point,
Speaker 3: our relationship was gone, you know, I'd say, very well.
Speaker 3: So fast forward a few weeks after that. This is
Speaker 3: where like our issues like arise. One night when we
Speaker 3: were out drinking, I got a little too drunk and
Speaker 3: then I said some like mean things to her, like
Speaker 3: I had gotten really drunk and for some reason I
Speaker 3: had called her slot. These weren't like thoughts I have
Speaker 3: of her, like I think the most of her. I
Speaker 3: don't know where that came from at this time, and
Speaker 3: obviously she was super upsett me, like how could you
Speaker 3: say that to me? Like you're dating me? Like why
Speaker 3: would you say that? And like I didn't have any
Speaker 3: you know, explanation. I had no idea where that came from.
Speaker 1: Had that ever happened before where you drink too much
Speaker 1: and said things that you regretted later and that were
Speaker 1: kind of inexplicable to you.
Speaker 3: Back in school? I mean, it would happen, but like
Speaker 3: I never had said that to my ex girlfriend.
Speaker 1: When it happened back in school. What did you say,
Speaker 1: and to whom it.
Speaker 3: Would just be like my friends, like we would just
Speaker 3: like get mad and get an argument, just like it
Speaker 3: was never never anything to this point, you know, never
Speaker 3: anything like a like a personal attack like that. It
Speaker 3: was never something like I had to wake up the
Speaker 3: next day and like I was like, wow, I can't believe,
Speaker 3: like I said that.
Speaker 1: Did it happen often or how often? Would you say
Speaker 1: it would happen?
Speaker 3: Not often? Not often at all?
Speaker 1: And with her, was this the first time that this
Speaker 1: had happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was the first time this happened. And then
Speaker 3: I guess like two or three weeks after that, it
Speaker 3: happened again, and it got to the point it happened
Speaker 3: like four times, five times, and obviously like she was
Speaker 3: fed up this whole time, like she was trying to
Speaker 3: get me to go to therapy because we realized, like
Speaker 3: my first relationship there was like a lot of it
Speaker 3: just like wasn't a healthy relationship at all, And that
Speaker 3: was my first ever relationship.
Speaker 1: After it happened the first time, how did the two
Speaker 1: of you talk about it and move past that?
Speaker 3: She was obviously very upset. I apologized to her, I
Speaker 3: told you, like it won't happen again. Obviously that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: So after it happened the second time, what happened between
Speaker 1: the two of you. I want to hear what happened
Speaker 1: each time and how the two of you dealt with it.
Speaker 3: The second time, she got super upset. I apologize, I said, like,
Speaker 3: I know, I said it would have happened. I don't
Speaker 3: know why it happened. And then after the second time
Speaker 3: is when I started going to therapy. Actually because I realized,
Speaker 3: I told her, I was like, listen, I'm gonna go
Speaker 3: with therapy. I'm going to try to like get to
Speaker 3: the rut of this problem. Like, clearly there's something you
Speaker 3: know going on.
Speaker 2: Did you consider motivating the drinking since it was directly
Speaker 2: tied to of a drinking.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it didn't work. But now ever, since you know,
Speaker 3: we broke up for like this last you know, it's
Speaker 3: close to two months now, the drinking has been very limited.
Speaker 3: I've you know, keeping control of myself. I'm you know,
Speaker 3: doing things that my therapists told me to do and
Speaker 3: I've let her know to and you know, she does
Speaker 3: say she's proud of me, like or the progress I've
Speaker 3: made was.
Speaker 1: The drinking something that had been problematic for you.
Speaker 3: Before this, I'd say I would definitely always have, you know,
Speaker 3: been a drinker. Just the environment I'm in, people I
Speaker 3: go out whatever, like you know, we're very like social group,
Speaker 3: so I definitely like I'm exposed to it a lot.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like when you were drinking, that you
Speaker 1: were drinking to a point that you would not be
Speaker 1: in control of yourself, that that was a regular thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, honestly, as bad as it sound like, it kind
Speaker 3: of was to the point where it was like a
Speaker 3: regular thing. It's not like I would wake up and
Speaker 3: like want a drink, you know, it would just be
Speaker 3: a Friday Saturday thing. We go out all together. The
Speaker 3: thing that changed was in the summer, we me and
Speaker 3: her went out together all the time, and like I
Speaker 3: did drink then too, and she drinks as well. But
Speaker 3: it was never an issue. So that's like why I've
Speaker 3: been so confused about situation, because one day it happened,
Speaker 3: and it's like it opened the gates and then led
Speaker 3: it happening multiple times.
Speaker 2: Was she able to tell you what because you don't
Speaker 2: have the recollection of what happened? Was she able to
Speaker 2: describe to you what happened that led you to Kotors.
Speaker 2: In each of those cases, she.
Speaker 3: Would say like out of nowhere, like and I know,
Speaker 3: one day it happened and my best friends were there,
Speaker 3: and so that was the first time it happened where
Speaker 3: other people like heard it. It was extremely embarrassing, Like
Speaker 3: it was just like really sad, you know, because then
Speaker 3: I had my best friend for like fifteen years. At
Speaker 3: this point, it's just been like I've never like seen
Speaker 3: you like say or do anything like that, Like that's
Speaker 3: so completely out of character for you.
Speaker 1: How long have you been seeing a therapist at.
Speaker 3: This point, about two months?
Speaker 1: And what has that been like for you in terms
Speaker 1: of understanding more about what might be going on.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I love it. It's just like good to talk to someone,
Speaker 3: you know. Therapy has never been something like I would
Speaker 3: like thought I would do myself, you know. I always
Speaker 3: thought I had everything pretty under control, but obviously that's
Speaker 3: not the case. It's definitely been good. It's a good outlet.
Speaker 3: I've been like journaling a lot, listening to the podcast
Speaker 3: that I've listened to all the episodes, you know, it's
Speaker 3: definitely been super helpful. I've realized a lot of the
Speaker 3: issues have stemmed from that first relationship I was in
Speaker 3: just because it was my first relationship, and like I was,
Speaker 3: I guess that's how I viewed how a relationship like
Speaker 3: that's like normal things, you know, when in reality it
Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily normal.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that relationship.
Speaker 3: Sure, So it was my second year of college. I
Speaker 3: met this girl. I met her in class, and we
Speaker 3: were together on and off until a year after graduation
Speaker 3: pretty much, so like three years. It was a pretty
Speaker 3: crazy relationship. Like, for example, we started dating and literally
Speaker 3: the weekend we started dating, one of my friends was
Speaker 3: out with her and sent me pictures of her with
Speaker 3: like another guy already. So like the first weekend, right
Speaker 3: off the bat, my first real real relationship, Like that's
Speaker 3: what I was like greeted by, you know, and that
Speaker 3: was like lingered over our relationship the whole time, and
Speaker 3: like that gave me like some serious trust issues.
Speaker 2: Well how did you handle that? When that happened?
Speaker 3: I got the pictures, and like I it was late
Speaker 3: at night, I couldn't sleep all night. The next day
Speaker 3: she was actually working. I drove to her job to
Speaker 3: talk to her about it. She blamed on her being
Speaker 3: too drunk and like she didn't remember it, and I
Speaker 3: was able to forgive her. But those trust issues definitely
Speaker 3: lasted the whole relationship. I was always you know, questioning things,
Speaker 3: and like I never like fully trusted her.
Speaker 1: Did that girlfriend continue to hook up with other guys
Speaker 1: or was it a one time incident that left you
Speaker 1: feeling distrustful throughout the relationship?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was definitely a one time incident from
Speaker 3: what I know. Of course, we just like had a
Speaker 3: lot of issues in that relationship because she was a bartender,
Speaker 3: I like the popular bar school. I feel like that
Speaker 3: was like the cloud on that relationship for pretty much
Speaker 3: the whole time. Why was that a cloud, I guess
Speaker 3: just like insecurities, just like trust issues between us mutual.
Speaker 2: Did she have trust issues with you as well?
Speaker 3: No, not that I know of I don't think so.
Speaker 3: I never like cheated on or did anything. You know.
Speaker 3: I always like gave her full access to anything she wanted.
Speaker 1: When you say you gave her full access to anything
Speaker 1: she wanted? Was she questioning you?
Speaker 3: No blake? If she ever felt uneasy about something or
Speaker 3: like someone I would if she wanted, like see certain
Speaker 3: text messages, I would show her like I never really
Speaker 3: had anything to hide from her.
Speaker 1: In that it sounds like she did have some trust
Speaker 1: issues if she was asking to see some text messages.
Speaker 3: She never did specifically, but like as a way for
Speaker 3: me to prove, you know, my innocence, not that she
Speaker 3: was like assuming I was doing things. Well.
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is in a relationship where
Speaker 1: there's trust, people are not needing to prove their innocence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so it sounds like something happened between the two
Speaker 1: of you where she communicated in some way that she
Speaker 1: wasn't sure she could trust you, and then you said no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you can let me show you these text messages.
Speaker 3: I think it's more so my trust issues with her.
Speaker 3: I would ask to see something, and I guess as
Speaker 3: a way to just like even the playing field, like
Speaker 3: she would like catch me slippy anyway?
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: Did she have transparency as well? Man? But she's saying, sure,
Speaker 2: here's my phone, whatever you want. Yeah, she did. So
Speaker 2: what was other than that first weekend? What else was
Speaker 2: happening there that maintained the distress?
Speaker 3: Well? For example, one time I saw a text from
Speaker 3: one of her coworkers and I asked her, like if
Speaker 3: I could see more about it, and then like when
Speaker 3: I looked into the phone, it was like the coworker
Speaker 3: asking her to go on a date, and like her
Speaker 3: saying like yeah, And then when I questioned her about it,
Speaker 3: she was just like, oh no, like we never did that,
Speaker 3: like we're just like friends. She never did go on
Speaker 3: this date, but like, no one does this, like no
Speaker 3: one texts your friends.
Speaker 2: She said yes to the date, So that's the problem. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: so there was definitely stuff.
Speaker 3: That was going on, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: And how did you deal with that with her?
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm gonna lookout for this coworker, Like
Speaker 3: I started hanging out with her friend grew more and
Speaker 3: like I eventually was friends with him, but like it
Speaker 3: was still just something uneasy to see that.
Speaker 2: But you were friends with a guy who asked your
Speaker 2: girlfriend out while he knew you were with her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like not like best friends, but like if I
Speaker 3: went to an event with her friends, like he would
Speaker 3: be there.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you said there was that one incident
Speaker 1: which happened early on, and then you said there was
Speaker 1: nothing else that would make you distrust her throughout the relationship,
Speaker 1: and yet here's an example. Somebody asked her out, which
Speaker 1: that's fine because that's not her doing. But then she
Speaker 1: said yes, And whether she went or not is kind
Speaker 1: of irrelevant because she said yes to a date. So
Speaker 1: it sounds like there was more than one incident, and
Speaker 1: can you tell us about others?
Speaker 3: Sure? So the kid that she cheated on me with
Speaker 3: that first weekend, he came to school with us, so,
Speaker 3: like we would see him around like a fair amount.
Speaker 3: So he was always like obviously like on the back
Speaker 3: of the mind. She like made it clear she was interested,
Speaker 3: blocked him on everything. But there would be times where
Speaker 3: she'd be bartending and I would see him like go
Speaker 3: up here and talk to her, and obviously I would react,
Speaker 3: come on, like what are you doing and she's like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm just doing my job, when in reality like it
Speaker 3: to me, obviously, it seems like it was more than that.
Speaker 1: When you saw the text that she had said yes
Speaker 1: to the date, what was the conversation like between the
Speaker 1: two of you. So she said, well, I didn't go
Speaker 1: on it, so it's okay, but obviously it wasn't okay
Speaker 1: with you. How did you talk to her about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I pretty much just like made it clear,
Speaker 3: like I was, like, no one says yes to go
Speaker 3: on a day, Like it's not like a like a
Speaker 3: friendly joke or something like that. And she like understood why.
Speaker 3: I was like disappointed and mad at her about it.
Speaker 3: And I mean after that, nothing really came of it.
Speaker 3: I just like let it go.
Speaker 1: And you know, did she apologize to you and did
Speaker 1: she understand why this was creating distrust?
Speaker 3: Yes, she did apologize. I was mad at her for
Speaker 3: like a week or so, if I remember correctly, and
Speaker 3: she definitely apologized and like felt really bad about it.
Speaker 2: The thing is, you're dating a popular about tender who's
Speaker 2: at the center of the social scene. And so there
Speaker 2: are these two guys, the guy she hooked up with
Speaker 2: and the other guy from work that you know there
Speaker 2: was a hook up in the flirtation with and you
Speaker 2: even saw in social events. The other guy go up
Speaker 2: to her and she cames, well, understoying my job. He's
Speaker 2: coming up to the bar. I got to talk to him.
Speaker 2: But she's about tender. You've got to see a lot
Speaker 2: of guys talking to her. That had to be a
Speaker 2: question in your mind. Every time she's talking to someone,
Speaker 2: what about this one what about this one? How did
Speaker 2: you manage that over the relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so obviously that's where a lot of our problems,
Speaker 3: you know, came from. In that relationship. It was never easy,
Speaker 3: but eventually, like it got to me that it's her job,
Speaker 3: and I had to trust her as much as I could.
Speaker 3: A lot of the nights I was there at the bar,
Speaker 3: it was never anything like out of the ordinary, Like
Speaker 3: at that point, I had just like become accustomed to it.
Speaker 2: But did you then become accustomed to it and were
Speaker 2: able to trust her, because you're kind of saying I
Speaker 2: became accustomed to the fact that this is going on,
Speaker 2: that that's part of her job, But I still had
Speaker 2: trust issues throughount you still had the discomfort even if
Speaker 2: you felt, well, I can't voice it all the time
Speaker 2: because you know, that's part of her job. But it
Speaker 2: sounded like he was still uncomfortable by that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say that it was pretty much always
Speaker 3: the case. As time, you know, I moved on between us,
Speaker 3: and we spent more time together and we did all
Speaker 3: these things together. Like I kind of just didn't forget
Speaker 3: about it, but I just like wouldn't let it affect
Speaker 3: me as much. But in the back of my mind.
Speaker 3: That was always like a problem for me.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the rest of the relationship and what
Speaker 1: was going on while this trust issue was happening, What
Speaker 1: was going well? Were there other issues that were not
Speaker 1: going well?
Speaker 3: So besides you know the mistrust, I thought our relationship
Speaker 3: was pretty good. We spent a lot of time together
Speaker 3: at school, like we pretty much like lived together. We
Speaker 3: both graduated, and then I guess that's when it started
Speaker 3: like going downhill for good.
Speaker 1: So up to the point of graduation, you felt like
Speaker 1: the trust issue was kind of in the background at
Speaker 1: that point, and things were going well and you imagined
Speaker 1: that you would continue dating and maybe even possibly end
Speaker 1: up together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, her family loved me, and my family
Speaker 3: loved her. It was definitely pretty good. We had we
Speaker 3: broke up a few times. We took small breaks, but
Speaker 3: like we would always find our way back together.
Speaker 5: Wait, wait, hold on, hold on. You kind of tossed
Speaker 5: that out there. We brought up a few times. So
Speaker 5: you're saying two things. You're saying one things were going
Speaker 5: really well, and the other thing is, oh, yeah, and
Speaker 5: we broke up a few times, So tell us about
Speaker 5: this few times.
Speaker 3: It would be like for small amounts of time, like
Speaker 3: a week, two weeks, the longest one was. I guess
Speaker 3: this is another important thing to tron. To start the relationship,
Speaker 3: she had had a boyfriend in high school that she
Speaker 3: dated for I think two years, and she was dating him,
Speaker 3: I believe her first year of school. So this was
Speaker 3: before I even knew her. So when I came into
Speaker 3: the picture, I had known of the X And in
Speaker 3: the beginning, we weren't together right off the bat, so
Speaker 3: I remember we were leaving. She told me, she was like,
Speaker 3: I don't think I could keep doing this, like I have,
Speaker 3: you know, my ex, and so she went and visited
Speaker 3: him in another state during this winter break. So then
Speaker 3: a month after that, she pretty much like came back
Speaker 3: to me and was like, yeah, that's like done. I
Speaker 3: want to be with you.
Speaker 1: That was the start of your relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then after that, like when we when she
Speaker 3: finally said that to me, that's like when I started
Speaker 3: taking in a very serious and then the weekend after
Speaker 3: then that happened. So definitely a rough start to it.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the other breakups, the times that you
Speaker 1: you said you broke up a few times, sure, tell
Speaker 1: us about those.
Speaker 3: So it would just be like, you know, we would
Speaker 3: be arguing a lot. She wouldn't like how I acted
Speaker 3: if I saw her like talking to a certain guy
Speaker 3: when in my mind, like I had reason to you know,
Speaker 3: doubt what, like what she's actually doing?
Speaker 2: So what would happen? Who broke up with whom in
Speaker 2: that situation?
Speaker 3: One time I broke up with her? Another time she
Speaker 3: broke up with me?
Speaker 1: And did she talk to you about why this was
Speaker 1: upsetting her? That maybe she felt controlled or she felt
Speaker 1: like you were not giving her enough space, that she
Speaker 1: wanted you to trust her, and you were kind of
Speaker 1: monitor turing her and being at the bar and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like her chaperone as opposed to her boyfriend.
Speaker 3: So basically, yeah, she would just like nah, I appreciate,
Speaker 3: like me getting mad about certain things. Like her response
Speaker 3: was always like it's my job, Like it's my job.
Speaker 1: What exactly was she doing that would upset you when
Speaker 1: she would say it's my job.
Speaker 3: The way she would talk to some of the guys,
Speaker 3: she would like call them close to the bar, like
Speaker 3: lean over the bar and like talking to her obviously
Speaker 3: like it's a loud bar. Like I understand this to
Speaker 3: the point, but there was definitely like some people that
Speaker 3: I was just like a little worried about because of
Speaker 3: the buddy language. Yeah, just like it looks like flirting,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: So she would call them over sometimes, not like they
Speaker 2: would go over and talk to her and she would
Speaker 2: talk to them, but sometimes she might actually call them over. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you said, we always found that way back, which is
Speaker 2: kind of a romantic way to think about it. But
Speaker 2: what happened? How did you get back? Who would apologize
Speaker 2: to whom? Who would approach him?
Speaker 3: The time I broke up with her, I know, like
Speaker 3: she reached out to me and just like said like, oh,
Speaker 3: like she misses me, and you know, she wants to
Speaker 3: work on things, so we could try again and things
Speaker 3: would be different this time, you know, and it would
Speaker 3: never really change.
Speaker 1: Did the two of you ever talk about what specifically
Speaker 1: would be different or it was just a vague things
Speaker 1: will be different.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was just pretty much just like vague. At
Speaker 3: this point, I was, you know, younger, I wasn't into
Speaker 3: the therapy, Like I wasn't like really trying to like
Speaker 3: look into like the issues and like find the root
Speaker 3: and all that. That's why I think I've brought you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of that stuff from that first relationship into
Speaker 3: this last one. You know, like I said the letter,
Speaker 3: I'm feel like I'm a lot more upset about this
Speaker 3: one than I was that first one being over, and
Speaker 3: that first one was much longer time together.
Speaker 1: So how did this relationship finally end?
Speaker 3: After like a while together? We graduated a few months
Speaker 3: after that. I kind of just like we weren't seeing
Speaker 3: each other as much because we weren't super close to
Speaker 3: each other anymore. You know, I'd see her like every
Speaker 3: weekend if that, sometimes not even that, and it just
Speaker 3: felt like it kind of just like ran its course.
Speaker 3: I went to her house and we just like sat
Speaker 3: down and we just talked, and then we decided to
Speaker 3: go our separate ways. You know. After that, we didn't.
Speaker 3: I haven't really been in contact.
Speaker 2: You said, do you think you carried over stuff from
Speaker 2: that first relationship to the second one? What specifically did
Speaker 2: you think you carried over there?
Speaker 3: I guess a bit of insecurity after that relationship, that
Speaker 3: fresh relationship had ended, Like I started learning more and
Speaker 3: more stuff, Like every time I had a problem in
Speaker 3: that relationship and I would bring it up, she would
Speaker 3: just like think it's me, Like overthinking and like bugging
Speaker 3: out about.
Speaker 2: Things, and so the insecurity, how did it manifest in
Speaker 2: your next relationship?
Speaker 3: I would always like overthink pretty much every situation. If
Speaker 3: she went out for a while and like didn't answer
Speaker 3: me for like an hour or two, like I would
Speaker 3: just like text her and be like are you okay?
Speaker 3: Like are you doing anything? And she never did anything,
Speaker 3: and it was just like pretty unfaired her.
Speaker 2: So the trust issue is what carried ova really significantly
Speaker 2: for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like being able to like fully trust her
Speaker 3: and like she didn't do anything to me to break
Speaker 3: that trust in the first place.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what it
Speaker 1: was like growing up for you, what your parents' relationship
Speaker 1: was like, just a little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 3: My parents have been together my whole life. My mom
Speaker 3: lived in Cuba. She moved here when she was eighteen
Speaker 3: years old. My dad definitely drank a lot while I
Speaker 3: was younger, so I'd hear a lot of fights between them.
Speaker 3: I would later find out, like my dad had a
Speaker 3: pretty serious like drug problem as well. And so when
Speaker 3: I was a senior in high school, I got like
Speaker 3: called out of school. My brother picked me up and
Speaker 3: once my grandparents' house, and like they pretty much like
Speaker 3: sat me down, like just like up ended my whole world.
Speaker 3: They told me like this whole thing that had happened
Speaker 3: with my dad and that like I'm not going to
Speaker 3: be seeing him anymore, and so oh that was like
Speaker 3: a pretty big deal. He decided he had to go
Speaker 3: to rehab, so he like left for about a month
Speaker 3: or so, and then he came back and ever since
Speaker 3: then he's been completely sober. He doesn't drink anymore, doesn't
Speaker 3: do anything. Him and my mom never split up. My
Speaker 3: mom stood by his side during, you know, even the
Speaker 3: bad times. So that's definitely something I saw. But this
Speaker 3: is something I've talked to my other therapist about as well.
Speaker 3: This was like a complete shock to me. The one
Speaker 3: person like I looked up to in my life, Like
Speaker 3: you found this out and like I had no idea.
Speaker 3: It completely blinds side of me.
Speaker 2: When's the family involved in the rehab, but a lot
Speaker 2: of the time his family is brought in, especially when
Speaker 2: their adults. You were eighteen, I think at that point,
Speaker 2: was you are part of that? Was that disgusted.
Speaker 3: I went and visited him two times when he was
Speaker 3: in there, did.
Speaker 2: You and he talk about it. Did he talk to
Speaker 2: you about what was going on?
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had like a pretty serious conversations about it
Speaker 3: after and we have a great relationship now. Him and
Speaker 3: my mom are obviously stood together there. They're better than
Speaker 3: I've ever been ever since. He pretty much like came
Speaker 3: back from that. They rarely fight, nothing like it used
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 2: And his issue was with alcohol and what drugs, cocaine,
Speaker 2: And the fact that he had those issues with alcohol
Speaker 2: and cocaine. Did that give you any misgivings about your
Speaker 2: own you, so any warning about I need to be
Speaker 2: closoert about my relationship with alcohol and with drugs because
Speaker 2: I have it with my dad and I've seen what
Speaker 2: happened to him.
Speaker 3: Obviously it was It's always something that's been on my mind.
Speaker 3: But like obviously I continue to do it. Now is
Speaker 3: when I'm like realizing that, like, you know, I'm getting older,
Speaker 3: I need to like start being more responsible and uh,
Speaker 3: like I'm taking it a lot more serious than I
Speaker 3: ever had before. Back then I was in school, like
Speaker 3: I want that fun, you know. I tried to not
Speaker 3: let that control me or make his dec decisions be
Speaker 3: a reflection on me. But after this, all this has happened,
Speaker 3: Like now I'm realizing that, like I need to cut
Speaker 3: it down, and I have been doing so for the
Speaker 3: last few weekends.
Speaker 1: Now what does it mean by cutting it down? Because
Speaker 1: everybody has a different definition of that.
Speaker 3: Sure, Sure, now I go out and have you know,
Speaker 3: three beers, four beers. You know, my friends have all
Speaker 3: all continued to you know, drink as they used to,
Speaker 3: because none of them, you know, they're all fine. But myself,
Speaker 3: like I just like am pacing myself, you know, mixing
Speaker 3: waters if I have to. But I haven't been drunk
Speaker 3: in the last month, and that's been you know, it's
Speaker 3: been a while since I've gone that long.
Speaker 1: Why do you think you stayed? Given that you were
Speaker 1: on edge so much of the time during that relationship.
Speaker 3: I remember feeling like we're just like always thinking to myself, like, wow,
Speaker 3: I can't wait to graduate. So like she's done with
Speaker 3: this part time the job and you know, you know,
Speaker 3: so like that was kind of something I held on to,
Speaker 3: and like she was, I'm also excited. She she would
Speaker 3: say to me like, oh, I can't wait, like when
Speaker 3: we're done and I get like my full time job
Speaker 3: and we just don't have to deal with this anymore.
Speaker 3: So that was definitely something we both you know, thought about.
Speaker 1: But then it happened. You graduated, she wasn't a bartender anymore,
Speaker 1: and so at that point you said, that was when
Speaker 1: you split up. So what do you think happened there where?
Speaker 1: This was this time when this big kind of elephant
Speaker 1: in the room that existed between the two of you
Speaker 1: was going to go away and now the two of
Speaker 1: you could have more normalcy and see who you were
Speaker 1: to each other. But it sounds like you didn't want
Speaker 1: to explore that with each other once you had the
Speaker 1: freedom to do that.
Speaker 3: I was definitely excited about it. I think we both were,
Speaker 3: but you know, as time passed, I guess, you know,
Speaker 3: not being together as much as we used to be,
Speaker 3: like the space we had more, a lot more space
Speaker 3: between us. I felt like the relationship at Runn's course,
Speaker 3: and it's like the spark was gone, you know, after
Speaker 3: after all, like we've been through together, Like it was
Speaker 3: just like it was a long relationship and it was
Speaker 3: definitely taxing on myself.
Speaker 1: This is so interesting to me. It reminds me a
Speaker 1: little bit of people who have some kind of obstacle
Speaker 1: in their relationship, like their long distance or you know,
Speaker 1: or someone is having an affair and they're finally going
Speaker 1: to leave their partner and the couple will now be
Speaker 1: free to be together. And then they've been waiting for that,
Speaker 1: that's the thing that they've been holding on to, and
Speaker 1: then they get that, and then they don't want it.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if part of the allure when I
Speaker 1: asked earlier why you stayed in this for so long,
Speaker 1: was that you couldn't really have her in the way
Speaker 1: you wanted to, and then when you maybe could, you
Speaker 1: could at least explore that you didn't want her anymore.
Speaker 1: And when we talk about the most recent relationship, I
Speaker 1: wonder if some of that is what's being brought over
Speaker 1: that there's something about you where part of you really
Speaker 1: wants to have a girlfriend and is that romantic and
Speaker 1: wants to have this kind of relationship, but another part
Speaker 1: of you isn't quite comfortable with it and sabotages it
Speaker 1: in some way.
Speaker 3: So in the most recent relationship, at the start, she
Speaker 3: was the one that was like a lot more interested
Speaker 3: in me and wanting to pursue me, And at the
Speaker 3: beginning I was more hesitant on it, Like I got
Speaker 3: out of a slow relationship. I wasn't ready to jump
Speaker 3: into a new one yet. So in the beginning, like,
Speaker 3: I definitely had my wall up, in my guard up
Speaker 3: for a longer time. And yeah, and eventually I obviously
Speaker 3: like brought her in and then I thought it was great.
Speaker 1: Right, So consciously you quote unquote made it official and
Speaker 1: you took that leap. But then when you drank, the
Speaker 1: part of you that I think was maybe afraid of
Speaker 1: what this was made sure that it would not progress
Speaker 1: because you kept doing something that would push her away
Speaker 1: and you weren't intentionally doing it, you were drunk. But
Speaker 1: I think that you have these two parts of yourself.
Speaker 1: There's a part that really wants to be in a
Speaker 1: healthy relationship that feels good, and there's another part of
Speaker 1: you that just doesn't trust that someone's going to be
Speaker 1: there for you in that way that feels very scary,
Speaker 1: it's very anxiety provoking, and you don't ever want to
Speaker 1: be in that situation again. And even though this current
Speaker 1: person hasn't done anything to make you feel like she's
Speaker 1: not trustworthy, I think that you have this feeling inside,
Speaker 1: this question inside about whether somebody really wants you and
Speaker 1: just you Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Think that's pretty good, And you know, it's something I've
Speaker 3: talked about with my therapist, like how I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm self sabotaging it in a way, Just like you said,
Speaker 3: I agree. I think part of it is because like
Speaker 3: the people in my life that I fully trusted, you know,
Speaker 3: I just like haven't even been able to trust. First
Speaker 3: with my dad and everything that happened with that situation
Speaker 3: like that bombshell, and then with my first girlfriendly, I
Speaker 3: just like it wasn't even able to build up that
Speaker 3: trust with her.
Speaker 2: Do you know how to build trust with someone when
Speaker 2: you're dating them, because, for example, you said you didn't
Speaker 2: know what it was that led to you calling her
Speaker 2: a slut four times, But given what you're describing, truly,
Speaker 2: you can just be in a bus somewhere. You know,
Speaker 2: a guy could just pass by and ask her where
Speaker 2: the restroom is, and you turn around, you see her
Speaker 2: talking to someone, and that might do it. Because one
Speaker 2: thing that's important in this kind of situation is to
Speaker 2: be super aware of what your triggers are. Have you
Speaker 2: come up with any other kinds of steps that you
Speaker 2: might take if this relationship were to continue to avoid
Speaker 2: those traps?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so like with this lash relationship, I know, it's
Speaker 3: just a touch on your point a little bit. Like
Speaker 3: we were out one time and like a musual friend
Speaker 3: of ours like was taught her, Like you said, like
Speaker 3: they got close to her ear because like we're in
Speaker 3: a bar and it's loud, and like I would just
Speaker 3: like have like a flashback like back at school, and
Speaker 3: I was just like I'd see myself getting angry and
Speaker 3: like I would just like try to control myself and
Speaker 3: then I would bring it up to her. She would
Speaker 3: just say, like you know him, like that he's my
Speaker 3: friend too, And there was actually nothing to be worried about.
Speaker 3: It was just kind of just like PTSD just like
Speaker 3: kicking in, like attributing the last relationship to her, when
Speaker 3: in reality, it's obviously nothing that I had to be,
Speaker 3: you know, even worried about it all.
Speaker 1: When guy was asking do you know how to build trust?
Speaker 1: I think we need to be clear about who you're
Speaker 1: trying to trust. In this case, you said, there's nothing
Speaker 1: she's done that would make you distrust her. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: reason that we can't trust someone is not that we
Speaker 1: don't trust them, it's that we don't trust that someone
Speaker 1: will love us that we don't trust that we are lovable,
Speaker 1: that we are lovable enough to sustain someone over time
Speaker 1: and anogamous relationship. And so it's not so much about
Speaker 1: trusting her, but it's about having trust in the idea
Speaker 1: that someone can love you. Does that resonate with you
Speaker 1: at all?
Speaker 3: Yeah? As time goes on, like you just like questioned, like,
Speaker 3: am I enough? I'm an overthinker. And obviously you see
Speaker 3: and hear all these stories. You know, it's definitely like
Speaker 3: something that it's probably super hard to find someone that's gonna,
Speaker 3: you know, love me for that long.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that would be hard?
Speaker 3: I just feel like everything that goes on like nowadays,
Speaker 3: it's just like hard to find someone that will be
Speaker 3: like committed to one person for a long period of time.
Speaker 2: And I think that with this last girlfriend, there will
Speaker 2: be a trust issue on her end as well at
Speaker 2: this point, right because full time you said these things
Speaker 2: to her, and so she will also have a hard
Speaker 2: time trusting. What is the current status between the two
Speaker 2: of you? Are you in touch? You know this you
Speaker 2: wrote a letter about you know, can this work if
Speaker 2: we came back together? But is that is that an option?
Speaker 2: Right now?
Speaker 3: We're not talking day of to day. Right now, she's
Speaker 3: told me that she wants just like space to think
Speaker 3: about things, because she does say like at this like
Speaker 3: I don't know how I could trust your word anymore.
Speaker 3: Like you've told me it was not gonna happen anymore.
Speaker 3: I don't blame her at all. Like She's completely right.
Speaker 3: I've also tried to make it clear, like how I
Speaker 3: really feel about her, and I told her, you know,
Speaker 3: every day I'm working to get better. I'm you know,
Speaker 3: going to therapy. I'm trying to get to the root
Speaker 3: of all these issues so we could try to control
Speaker 3: it and hopefully if I'm giving a chance to never
Speaker 3: happen again.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about her?
Speaker 3: Absolutely love her. Just the way I feel about her
Speaker 3: is completely different from that that first relationship, and it
Speaker 3: just kills me because I know the main problem, you know,
Speaker 3: was the drinking and what came after that. And you know,
Speaker 3: I told her I don't have to have a drink again.
Speaker 3: Like that's something I realized recently was that's not really
Speaker 3: important to me. I'm ready to like move on from
Speaker 3: this stage.
Speaker 1: See, I don't think the main problem was the drinking.
Speaker 1: I think the drinking brought out the problem. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: the problem was that you don't trust that someone can
Speaker 1: love you and sustain their love in you, that they're
Speaker 1: not going to lose interest, or that some shiny person
Speaker 1: out there won't take them away from you. And that's
Speaker 1: really the issue that whether it's this relationship or another
Speaker 1: relationship that you're going to have to deal with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds that sounds right.
Speaker 1: So at this point, is she saying I don't want
Speaker 1: to have any communication for the time being, or is
Speaker 1: there an opening there?
Speaker 3: She wants her space generally on day to day, but
Speaker 3: then for example, yesterday, I shall send me a picture
Speaker 3: of like a meal she cooked, because you know, we
Speaker 3: would cook together, and like, you know, she sent me
Speaker 3: like a message like saying, oh, like I miss you,
Speaker 3: but I just know I just like I don't think
Speaker 3: we could be together right now. Not mixed messages, but
Speaker 3: like sometimes that we see each other, like they just
Speaker 3: casually talking and like bring bringing it back, you know,
Speaker 3: and that's kind of what it gives me hope that
Speaker 3: we could be together again.
Speaker 2: Does she know that you love her too?
Speaker 3: Yes, she says it back to me as well, because
Speaker 3: I said.
Speaker 2: That in that first relationship that was never repaired. What
Speaker 2: happened that first weekend and before it was never repaired.
Speaker 2: And the one way that you repair those things is
Speaker 2: that you would have had to have known at that point,
Speaker 2: like how that happened, how she had owed us up
Speaker 2: to do that, What she can say to you that
Speaker 2: will reassure you that she's got that under control, that
Speaker 2: whatever that was won't happen again, et cetera. And this current,
Speaker 2: this past girl friend, this most recent X is also
Speaker 2: in that position of Okay, you apologized for it the
Speaker 2: first time, said it wouldn't happen, and again happened again,
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't happen again, happened again four times. I'm
Speaker 2: sure she has her friends and family saying how many
Speaker 2: times does it take? Which means that she doesn't have
Speaker 2: and you might not have eide yet, but she doesn't
Speaker 2: have yet a way to think about this in which
Speaker 2: she has an understanding of what it was that triggered
Speaker 2: it and what steps you are taking and can take
Speaker 2: to truly prevent that from happening again. So she would
Speaker 2: not feel that, say for the relationship with you, until
Speaker 2: she really had a good idea that, oh, you know what,
Speaker 2: maybe that will work to give him a handle on it.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's something that would make a difference.
Speaker 3: So like every time I'll have a third session, if
Speaker 3: we like come through it comes to like your realization,
Speaker 3: Like I'll just like send their message like letting her
Speaker 3: know like hey like this this and this. You know,
Speaker 3: after like the last two weekends, like I I just
Speaker 3: signed their messures like hey, like just you know, like
Speaker 3: I'm completely sober. She would say like, yeah, I'm like
Speaker 3: proud of you, Like I'm happy you're doing all this.
Speaker 3: I'm keeping her in the loop about like the progress
Speaker 3: that's being made. You know, I know it takes time
Speaker 3: and it's not going to just happen overnight, but she
Speaker 3: definitely knows how committed I am to making any necessary changes.
Speaker 1: And that's a great first step. But I think what
Speaker 1: we're talking about is talking about your inner world with
Speaker 1: her in a way that you haven't yet.
Speaker 2: So, Mark, we have some advice for you, and it's
Speaker 2: in two parts. The first part is this, we think that, yes,
Speaker 2: you got traumatized by that first relationship. For sure, it
Speaker 2: was very, very difficult. But we also think that there's
Speaker 2: a fundamental insecurity you have in which you are worried
Speaker 2: that the next guy that comes along, the next shiny
Speaker 2: object that comes along, whoever, your waves will go, Oh,
Speaker 2: he's better, let's go over there. There is a basic
Speaker 2: I think in security, you feel that you can be
Speaker 2: loved fully and loyally in a trusting way just for
Speaker 2: who you are and for what you have to offer.
Speaker 2: We also think you have a lot to offer. We
Speaker 2: think you're a good guy, we think you're romantic in
Speaker 2: a very lovely way, and we're not sure that you're
Speaker 2: fully in touch with how much you have to offer.
Speaker 2: And so what we'd like you to do is an
Speaker 2: exercise that's called a self affirmation exercise, And what it
Speaker 2: is is that you write down a list of qualities
Speaker 2: that you know you have that are meaningful and meaningful
Speaker 2: in relationships, like the fact that you're a twenty six
Speaker 2: year old guy, but you're going to therapy and you're
Speaker 2: gainfully employed, and you're loyal, and you're emotionally available, and
Speaker 2: you can explore your feelings and you're not afraid of
Speaker 2: talking about the relationship and how each of you feel
Speaker 2: in a situation. So there's a lot you have to
Speaker 2: offer that's not necessarily what most twenty six year old
Speaker 2: guys bring to the table. You do bring some of
Speaker 2: the regular stuff. You're a good looking guy, and you
Speaker 2: know how to have fun, and you can lead, and
Speaker 2: you can organize, and you can be social. You bring
Speaker 2: all of that to the table as well. And so
Speaker 2: we'd like you to make that list as exhaustively as
Speaker 2: you can. But if you want to have one hundred
Speaker 2: items on there, all the better. And then for every
Speaker 2: day in the next week, we'd like you to choose
Speaker 2: one of the items you think is most meaningful and
Speaker 2: that you embody most. You said your journal, we'd like
Speaker 2: you to write a couple of paragraphs at least about
Speaker 2: that item, one a day, about why it's meaningful, how
Speaker 2: you've embodied it or exhibited it in the past, how
Speaker 2: it's been received, how other people have appreciated it in
Speaker 2: the past, and how they might appreciate it in the future.
Speaker 2: And the idea there is to really remind yourself of
Speaker 2: what you have to offer that is strong, that is good,
Speaker 2: that is attractive, so that you feel more secure and
Speaker 2: that you feel like it's going to take a big
Speaker 2: man to outshine me here, so that you don't feel
Speaker 2: that everyone who leans over and whispers something to your
Speaker 2: girlfriend in a bar or in any setting is actually
Speaker 2: a threat. So that's the first part. What do you
Speaker 2: think about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I think that's something I can do.
Speaker 3: I think it'll be good.
Speaker 1: Great. And then we have a second part to the advice,
Speaker 1: and that's about dealing with the ex girlfriend.
Speaker 3: Can we give her name, sure, Niki.
Speaker 1: So we want you to have a conversation with Niki
Speaker 1: where you start off by saying, you must feel like
Speaker 1: giving me another chance would make you seem like such
Speaker 1: an idiot after the several chances that you've already given me.
Speaker 1: Because you've been through this before in another relationship where
Speaker 1: you ask for something and the person didn't regain your trust,
Speaker 1: you know what that's like yourself, and that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: be asking this of her if you hadn't gone through
Speaker 1: that from the other side yourself. So you understand the
Speaker 1: position that she's in. But the difference here in terms
Speaker 1: of what you're asking now is that you're really going
Speaker 1: through this process of understanding what is happening, and you
Speaker 1: want her to know that you own one hundred percent
Speaker 1: what happened, that she is not responsible for any of it,
Speaker 1: and that not only do you own it, but you're
Speaker 1: starting to understand the real reasons why you did that,
Speaker 1: what's going on, what has been happening for you, and
Speaker 1: that it's not just the drinking. It's not just I
Speaker 1: got drunk and this is what happens when I get drunk.
Speaker 1: It's having this very vulnerable conversation about the real reason,
Speaker 1: and the real reason is you will say to Nikki,
Speaker 1: I have a fear that I am not enough, and
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that I had that fear. And part
Speaker 1: of it is that I was scarred by the relationship before,
Speaker 1: but part of it is that this is just something
Speaker 1: that I need to work on. This is something that
Speaker 1: I come with and that I don't want to bring
Speaker 1: into another relationship, and I certainly wouldn't want to bring
Speaker 1: into a new version of the relationship with you. So
Speaker 1: what I'm asking for is a reboot, given that I
Speaker 1: understand more about where this is coming from, that I
Speaker 1: own it completely, that I am working tirelessly on trying
Speaker 1: to figure this out, and that I also have some
Speaker 1: tools so that I can work on making this not happen.
Speaker 1: Like I know that being in a bar is very
Speaker 1: triggering for me right now, and that maybe that would
Speaker 1: not be a good place for us to go on
Speaker 1: a date. What I'm proposing is, I would like to
Speaker 1: do a reboot where we take it one day at
Speaker 1: a time and we just reevaluate after every day. How
Speaker 1: did that go? How are we doing? Are we communicating
Speaker 1: with each other, no rushing, fully communicating, a real chance
Speaker 1: to get to know each other, not only again but
Speaker 1: differently from the way we did the first time. And
Speaker 1: that is my proposal. Would you go on a date
Speaker 1: with me in this new way? Now she may say yes,
Speaker 1: in which case the instructions are, if you go on
Speaker 1: the date with her, we would like you to notice
Speaker 1: how you're feeling on the date. We want you to
Speaker 1: monitor yourself. Oh did I just notice a cute guy
Speaker 1: walk by? And I got anxious? And by the way,
Speaker 1: we don't want this date to happen in a bar.
Speaker 1: So it might be that you take a walk together,
Speaker 1: you go to the beach, you have a picnic, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is, You go to lunch together, and can
Speaker 1: you have fun together? And can you notice yourself? Can
Speaker 1: you notice when things are happening before you react to
Speaker 1: that doing a lot of self talk? Oh, I noticed
Speaker 1: that she looked to the right and there was a
Speaker 1: cute guy there, and you being able to breathe through
Speaker 1: it right, really noticing and when you get back from
Speaker 1: the date, to journal about what you noticed about you,
Speaker 1: not about what she did, what you noticed about you,
Speaker 1: and how you were able to seem more connected to her.
Speaker 1: Instead of going off into these stories that you create
Speaker 1: around what might be going on in her mind, we
Speaker 1: want you to really focus on what's going on in
Speaker 1: your mind and then challenge some of those beliefs. And
Speaker 1: if she says no to the date, we would like
Speaker 1: you to let her know that you completely understand why
Speaker 1: she is concerned about starting to do this reboot and
Speaker 1: let her know that at the same time that because
Speaker 1: you love her so much and because you're coming to
Speaker 1: all of these realizations that you can't be in contact
Speaker 1: with her if you're not going to be doing this
Speaker 1: reboot with her at least for the next month, and
Speaker 1: so you want to go off and do the work
Speaker 1: work that you need to do and let her do
Speaker 1: whatever she needs to do in terms of the healing
Speaker 1: she needs to do, and then ask her if it's
Speaker 1: okay if you could call her in a month just
Speaker 1: to see where the two of you are and if
Speaker 1: anything has changed, and you will hopefully have done a
Speaker 1: lot of work in that time, and maybe she'll have
Speaker 1: done some healing in that time. And if she says yes,
Speaker 1: then you'll call her in a month and you'll see
Speaker 1: can you do the reboot? Then maybe you don't even
Speaker 1: want to do the reboot. Then maybe you've come to
Speaker 1: a place where you this is not what you want
Speaker 1: to do, and maybe she doesn't want to do it.
Speaker 1: So maybe you both will want the same thing, maybe
Speaker 1: you will want different things, or maybe you both will
Speaker 1: say we don't want to pursue this, but it will
Speaker 1: take you out of that limbo that is very I
Speaker 1: think anxiety provoking about like, well, what she doing? Is
Speaker 1: she on the apps? Is she dating other people? What
Speaker 1: does that mean that she sent me this photo of
Speaker 1: dinner she was cooking. It will clarify something in a
Speaker 1: very direct way. What is our status right now? And
Speaker 1: what are we doing with each other? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, that sounds good.
Speaker 2: One quick addition, we want you to end ephasize to
Speaker 2: her that Nikki, I'm not asking you to trust me
Speaker 2: because you can't right now. I'm asking you to give
Speaker 2: me a chance to gain your trust. That's really all
Speaker 2: I'm asking. And either I'll succeed and I think I might,
Speaker 2: or I won't. But I'm not asking you to come
Speaker 2: in blindly. I'm asking you to come in as a
Speaker 2: skeptic and give me a chance to regain your trust.
Speaker 1: And the philosophy behind the one date at a time
Speaker 1: is a little bit like people with addictions. They can't
Speaker 1: say I will never use again, but they can say
Speaker 1: I'm going to take this one day at a time.
Speaker 1: And so you're going to take it one date at
Speaker 1: a time as you're working on this, where you can
Speaker 1: manage that smaller chunk of on this one date, can
Speaker 1: I really tune into myself? Can I monitor my reactions
Speaker 1: to things? And then you do it again on another date.
Speaker 1: And so you're not saying to her, I will never
Speaker 1: do this again. You're saying, if I do this kind
Speaker 1: of work, there's a much higher likelihood that I will
Speaker 1: never do this again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome, Okay.
Speaker 1: Great, we look forward to hearing back from you.
Speaker 3: Awesome guys that I really appreciate the time. Thank you
Speaker 3: guys for the help.
Speaker 1: So I think this is one of those situations where
Speaker 1: you think it's a discreete issue like should I get
Speaker 1: back together with this girlfriend? But there are some underlying
Speaker 1: issue that is driving it. And here we have this
Speaker 1: idea that the other shoe is going to drop. First
Speaker 1: it happened with his father, the other shoe dropped, and
Speaker 1: then it happens with the first girlfriend. And he has
Speaker 1: this belief that you can't get too comfortable because the
Speaker 1: minute you get too comfortable, something bad will happen.
Speaker 2: And I think that what happened with his father was
Speaker 2: actually really important to here, because I think for Mark,
Speaker 2: the idea that if the person that you know so well,
Speaker 2: your father, you didn't know this about them, and you
Speaker 2: can suddenly be taken out of school and given this bombshell,
Speaker 2: then how can you trust people? And I think that
Speaker 2: combined with this insecurity that he came with that doesn't
Speaker 2: recognize his own strengths and what he has to offer,
Speaker 2: I think those things together, the dad, the experience with
Speaker 2: a girlfriend, and that insecurity have really set him up
Speaker 2: to have these issues in relationships and he's going to
Speaker 2: have them until he deals with them. And I'm so
Speaker 2: glad that he's in therapy, and I'm so glad that
Speaker 2: he's really taking it seriously. You can see this is
Speaker 2: someone who wants to figure this out and who wants
Speaker 2: to do the work.
Speaker 1: That's true. After the second time that this happened, he
Speaker 1: went to therapy. His girlfriend said you need to go
Speaker 1: to therapy, and instead of hemming and huying or saying
Speaker 1: I'll just cut back on my drinking, he said yes,
Speaker 1: and he went to therapy. And I think that speaks volumes.
Speaker 1: And I hope that when he calls her, whether or
Speaker 1: not she decides to go on a date with him,
Speaker 1: that she can really take in what he's saying, because
Speaker 1: I think it's going to take a lot of courage
Speaker 1: for him to do that, and so I hope that
Speaker 1: it's received. Well, you're listening to Dear Therapist for my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. So, Guy,
Speaker 1: we heard back from Mark, and let's hear what happened
Speaker 1: for him.
Speaker 3: Hi, Guy, and Laurie hope all as well. So since
Speaker 3: our talk, I worked on the journaling exercise. Honestly, I
Speaker 3: found it to be extremely helpful. You know, these last
Speaker 3: few weeks have been extremely hard on me. You know,
Speaker 3: I've been very down on myself pretty much every day
Speaker 3: it's just a hard time and I just blame myself
Speaker 3: every day for ruining the relationship. You know, something that
Speaker 3: I was so great, something that I thought would be forever,
Speaker 3: and my actions and my words closed too much harm.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it's been rough, but the journaling was great,
Speaker 3: you know, a nice little reminder that, you know, just
Speaker 3: something to pick myself up as opposed to putting myself down,
Speaker 3: which is something I just like found myself doing a
Speaker 3: lot recently. In terms of the conversation with Niki, we
Speaker 3: had a pretty long conversation. I told her I feel
Speaker 3: I told everything, and unfortunately she just did not want
Speaker 3: to go on a date. She just said she still
Speaker 3: needed space and that she was like upset and just
Speaker 3: can't get over like the words I said there. I
Speaker 3: don't blame her at all, I know it. You know
Speaker 3: that I hurt her and it wasn't right and that's
Speaker 3: just not something you say to someone you care about.
Speaker 3: But hopefully could revisit this in a month and you know,
Speaker 3: maybe the space makes you realize something. I just can't
Speaker 3: give up on the hope, So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for the help. I really
Speaker 3: appreciate it, and I did find it to be very helpful.
Speaker 3: Take care, guys.
Speaker 1: It sounds like things are still really rough for him,
Speaker 1: and yet he found the conversation helpful. And I think
Speaker 1: that's because when we understand more about our role in
Speaker 1: a situation, and when we get more clear about what
Speaker 1: it's really about, it gives us a path forward. It
Speaker 1: might not be a path forward with NICKI, but it
Speaker 1: gives us a path forward.
Speaker 2: And I think that he needs a little bit of
Speaker 2: time to really employ self forgiveness. Sometimes you need to
Speaker 2: get a little bit more distant from things before you
Speaker 2: can look back and go, yes, I made mistakes which
Speaker 2: he can see and accepts, and that he needs to
Speaker 2: be able to get to that place of self forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Well right. I think the self forgiveness is so important
Speaker 1: because you can't make progress when you are self flagellating.
Speaker 1: And I don't think he can really do the work
Speaker 1: that he needs to do when he's in this place
Speaker 1: of blaming himself. You know, there's this saying hope is
Speaker 1: not a good strategy, so he needs to do more
Speaker 1: than hope. He keeps talking about hope, but I think
Speaker 1: what he needs to do is he needs to do
Speaker 1: the work. And I think he's finally gotten the wake
Speaker 1: up call and now he just needs to act on it.
Speaker 2: So Mark, if you're listening, this is the time to
Speaker 2: practice self forgiveness and to really do that work.
Speaker 1: Next week, a single woman deals with shame about getting
Speaker 1: a late start in dating and sex.
Speaker 4: I guess I'm afraid to get into a relationship in
Speaker 4: a sense because then people ask you like about your history,
Speaker 4: and it's embarrassing one to be free and single. You know,
Speaker 4: when you mentioned that to people, they're always like shocked,
Speaker 4: and I've had people say, oh gosh, what's wrong with you?
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with
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