1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: I'm Hillary Clinton and this is you and Me Both. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: I am so thrilled to be joined this week by 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: the groundbreaking author Judy Bloom. Since she began writing in 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: the late sixties, Judy's books have struck a chord with 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: so many millions of readers, from are You There, God, 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: It's Me Margaret to Tales of a fourth grade Nothing 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: to Blubber, Let's Not Forget Forever. That one was famously 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: passed around among groups of friends. Some of the pages 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: were dog eared because they had quote sex scenes in them. 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Her open, frank way that her novels engaged with subjects that, 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, we're considered taboo, like sexuality, bullying, divorce, religion 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: really resonated with young people now. Of course, writing about 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: those topics also got her into some hot water since 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: the culture War. Back in the Reagan era, Judy's novels 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: have consistently landed on the American Library Association's list of 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:14,279 Speaker 1: most Banned books. But today Judy Bloom is enjoying something 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: of a renaissance. The film adaptation of Are You There, God, 18 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: It's Me Margaret came out this past spring to critical acclaim, 19 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: and it caused a resurgence of women of a certain 20 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: age talking about their formative experiences with the story and 21 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: Judy Bloom Forever, a new documentary film about her, is 22 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: streaming now on Amazon Prime. There are so many things 23 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 1: I want to talk to Judy about, including her efforts 24 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: to combat book bands and the nonprofit bookstore that she 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: and her husband run down in Key West, Florida. I 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: am so delighted she's joining me on the podcast. Are 27 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: you there, Judy Bloom, It's me Hillary. 28 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: I am there, Hillary. Hello, Hello, good morning. 29 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: Oh. I cannot tell you what a treat it is 30 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: for me to talk with you. And I asked a 31 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: couple of my childhood friends from ancient times who are 32 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: still vacation with visit with, you know, catch up with 33 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: all the time, you know what, they'd want me to 34 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,399 Speaker 1: talk to you about and to a person because we're 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 1: a little older than you know when you started. They said, Oh, 36 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: I wish she'd written when we were we were wondering 37 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: about life, and they reminded me, and I just wanted 38 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: to tell you that I remember in sixth grades, this 39 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: would have been probably nineteen fifty seven, maybe fifty eight. 40 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: All the girls in the sixth grade were ushered into 41 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 1: our school auditorium. There was brown paper covering the windows 42 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: in the doors leading to the auditorium. We had no 43 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: idea why we were there. And we sat down and 44 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: they showed us a film about mens duration, and I, 45 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: along with the vast majority of my classmates, as we 46 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: were recalling the other day when I was telling them 47 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: I was talking to you, had never heard of it. 48 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: I remember one of my friends saying, wait, I'm gonna bleed, 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: I'll die. And you know I had a wonderful mother, 50 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: but she never said a word. I came home from school, 51 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: I said, we saw this film, and she goes, oh, oh, 52 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: so now you understand. No, I did not understand. But 53 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: none of us knew about this. This this this very 54 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: natural thing that is the experience of you know, all 55 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: of us. And I know I know from reading about you. 56 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: You you didn't grow up with any more openness than 57 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: I did. 58 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 2: My mother didn't talk about anything, but my father did. 59 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: Oh, my god, my father would never have sort of worried. 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: My father did. My father is the one who told 61 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: me about menstruation. 62 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: Oh. 63 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 2: I didn't understand anything that he was saying. It had 64 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: to do with a lunar cycle and the moon being full, 65 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: and so I would look out the window and if 66 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 2: the moon was full, I said, this is now, is 67 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: the time that all the women are having this wonderful experience. 68 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: I couldn't wait to get my period. 69 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: I really really wanted it. As you know from my books. 70 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, thank goodness, you had a father like that. 71 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Most of us did not. The last thing my father 72 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: ever would have talked to me about is anything personal. 73 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: But you know your mother, and you've written about her, 74 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: You've done interviews. I've read long, long interviews with you 75 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: over the years. You know, you're so open about how 76 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: you didn't have that kind of intimate, open relationship with 77 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: your mom. But you know she started typing your early books, right, 78 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: she did that open up a conversation or was it 79 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: just like I will type this. 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: It was so strange because she came to my house 81 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: type to type it. She was a crackerjack typist. And 82 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: when my father died, and he died early at age 83 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 2: fifty four, she went to work at a law firm 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: and she was their typist, one of their many typist, 85 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: I guess, but they always said when when she went 86 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: on vacation, they had to hire two people to take 87 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: her place. She was great, and I have to say 88 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 2: she is the person who really so encouraged me to 89 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 2: read and never restricted what I chose to read. She 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: would say, I think you would like this book, and 91 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: Frank she. 92 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: Kind of related to you then in a way through books. 93 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that's a wonderful thing that parents and 94 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 2: kids can do. Maybe you can't talk about me, but 95 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: you can talk about this character in a book, and 96 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: that's great. However, my mother came to the house, she 97 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: typed my manuscripts and that was it. She did not 98 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: ask questions. I did not let her type the manuscript 99 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: for forever. She did type, Margaret, you know, these were finished. 100 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: I can type. I'm a pretty good typist. But she 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: would do the one that was going to the publisher 102 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: and never said anything, Oh my, I never said a thing. 103 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 2: Isn't that weird? 104 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: It is weird, but it's weirdly touching too, you know. 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: She wanted to be helpful. She couldn't really talk to 106 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: you about even what you were writing. I do think 107 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 1: a lot of it is generational, you know, women of 108 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: her generation, my mother's generation born you know, in the 109 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: early part of the twentieth century, you know, I don't 110 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: think they had anybody to talk to. You know, my 111 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: mother had a terrible childhood, and you know, just ugh, 112 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: I don't know how she survived it. And so when 113 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: I learned more about that, I just couldn't even imagine 114 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: what it must have been like for her. But what 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: you did, and what was so incredibly impactful about your writing, 116 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: is that you kind of brought these very real childhood, 117 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: personal growing up experiences to public light. And maybe a 118 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: mother or a father or both couldn't talk to their child, 119 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: but you, in a way were talking for them because 120 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: you were allowing these issues, these concerns that kids have 121 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: to be legitimized. 122 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: Well, I like that, Thank you. That's not what I 123 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: was thinking. Of course, when I was writing, I was 124 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: just you know, I had all this stuff inside me, 125 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: and I had the creative and I needed a place 126 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: to put it because I then remember my generation, we 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: married early, we had our children early, and. 128 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: Then what. 129 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I do think in my generation 130 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: that's why there was so much divorce. You know, I 131 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: was a junior in college when I got married, and 132 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: you know, I had two kids by the time I 133 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: was twenty five, right, and I liked taking care of babies. 134 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: But then then what yeah, exactly, and I desperately needed 135 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: the creative outlet. It could have been anything, but I 136 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: was home with two little kids, and I did have 137 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: stories running around in my head forever since I was 138 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 2: nine years old. So it's like, okay, let's see, let's 139 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 2: see if I can do this. 140 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: So your first book, the title is so great, the 141 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: one in the Kangaroo Kelly, that was forgettable. That's forgettable. 142 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: It amazes me that it's still in print and that 143 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: children read it, but little children, little children, And there 144 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: was a publisher, and I guess a publisher, right, So 145 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: how did you go from feeling, you know, the need 146 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: to express yourself creatively to getting that first book in print? 147 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,479 Speaker 1: Well, I knew. 148 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 2: Nothing, you know. It was extremely naive and I didn't 149 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 2: know anybody who wrote or anybody in publishing. But I 150 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: read magazines about, you know, how to publish your book. 151 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: That first book was not the book that brought me 152 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: my incredible editor, the best editor in the whole world, 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: Dick Jackson. That was the next book, Iggy's House. So 154 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: the first book was published just you know, I would 155 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: send the manuscript out and it would come back and 156 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: I would send it out to somebody else and somebody 157 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: published it. But of course what's unforgettable to me is 158 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 2: working with Jackson. I mean, Dick Jackson really discovered me, 159 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: found me, nurtured me. Every one of his writers felt 160 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,479 Speaker 2: and still continues to feel the same way about him. 161 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: How lucky, how incredible to find a person like this. 162 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: And apparently he worked differently with every one of his writers, 163 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: you know. 164 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: Like, does he do that with you? 165 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: Wait? 166 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: No, does he do that? 167 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: It's almost like girlfriend's talking about a boyfriend. But it wasn't, 168 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 2: you know. It was just a way that he found 169 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: that he recognized what we needed and he gave that 170 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 2: to us, and for me, all of my early books, 171 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 2: not the Fudge books, because Dick and his partner Bob 172 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,239 Speaker 2: ver Owen said to me, oh, Judy, you're so prolific. 173 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: This was ages ago. You're so prolific. Why don't you 174 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: do those funny books that you're writing with somebody else? 175 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: Wow? 176 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 2: I know, And that was a big joke between us 177 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 2: later on. You know, how did they let those books go? 178 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 2: But they did, and they were very small company, and 179 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: I was prolific in those days. 180 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: They just couldn't handle your workload. I was getting the 181 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: job done. 182 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: I don't know how, because I used to think, someday, someday, 183 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 2: when the kids are bigger, I will have much more 184 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: time to do this. 185 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: And you know what happened. 186 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 2: The more time I had to do this, the less 187 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: well I used my time. 188 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: And what did your kids think about their mom writing books? 189 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 1: Because clearly at some point they realized that there were 190 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: books that you actually had written, maybe on the kitchen 191 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: table or in a desk in their house somewhere. 192 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 2: The first two were at the kitchen table on the 193 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: college typewriter. You know, it evolved. I mean, if you 194 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: ask them now at sixty and sixty two, what they 195 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: would tell you something different. But my daughter was my 196 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: first reader, you know, she was a reader always, and 197 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: come home from school and she pulled the pages out 198 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 2: of the typewriter and she would sit there and read them. 199 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: And she says that I always watched her to see 200 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: what she thought was funny, how she was reacting, and 201 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: she would say, I can't read while you're looking at me. 202 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: Stop looking at me. And my son says he remembers 203 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: the clickiti clickiti claque of the typewriter but really and truly, 204 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: I feel that I didn't make enough of the fact 205 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: that I was a working mom because there weren't any 206 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: on our cul de sac we lived in suburban New Jersey. 207 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 2: I never let them see I think the struggle and 208 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: the pain, and I think that's important. 209 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: So if a listener is thinking to herself, let's say 210 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: or himself, but let's stick with herself. Gee, I want 211 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: to do that too. And they have like young kids 212 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,719 Speaker 1: at home, you think, now, maybe sharing more of that 213 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: process with them, letting them see this is you know, 214 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: something you care deeply about and it takes time, it 215 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: takes discipline. Is that something you would advise? 216 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 2: Well, I mean women weren't going out to work so much. 217 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: Oh, I know, I did not personally know any friend 218 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: whose mother worked. Now I had women teachers, so clearly 219 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: I knew women work, right, but nurse. 220 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 2: You could be a teacher or a nurse or if. 221 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: You sometimes you go into a store or the library 222 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: and you'd see other women. But that seemed very disconnected 223 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: from my neighborhood because nobody worked. None of the women work. 224 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: The men left in the morning, they came back for dinner. 225 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: Yep. And it is very different. But I do think that. 226 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 2: I don't say, sit down and talk to your kids 227 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 2: about the struggle. That's not how I would do it. 228 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 2: I mean, just let them see it. Let them see 229 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: what's going on the struggle. Don't hide it from them. 230 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: You know, my first rejection, I went into the closet 231 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: and I closed the door and I cried. Yeah, they 232 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: were very small. Did they need to see that? No, 233 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: that was mine, that was private. My husband, my then husband, 234 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: never saw it. I don't know if he was aware 235 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 2: really of what was going on. He just he well, 236 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: this is terrible, but he thought it was cute. 237 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was that again, is something very generational. 238 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: But there was something else going on with you, Judy 239 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: that I've always thought because you didn't just write whatever 240 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: the more advanced version of you know, see Dick Run, 241 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: see Jane catch the ball. I mean you you began 242 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: to tackle issues of you know, race and sex and religion. 243 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Those were taboos. I mean I remember being told you 244 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: never talk about religion, and they didn't have to say 245 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: don't talk about sex. 246 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: That was just assumed that didn't exist, that did not exist. 247 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: You know, we had no idea. How did you come 248 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: to you know, really embrace issues that others were not 249 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: writing about, let alone talking about. Was it kind of 250 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: scary to you to do that? 251 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: I really can't explain, except that when I started, I 252 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: knew that I wanted to write books that I would 253 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: have wanted to read when I was a kid, and 254 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: I knew that I wanted to be honest. I felt 255 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 2: that adults in my life anyway, adults kept secrets from kids. 256 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 2: Everything was secrets. I hated secrets. And so I mean 257 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: that in a way, that's how I started my life 258 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: of you know, inventing stories inside my head when I 259 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: was nine years old. Because of the secrets and because 260 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: nobody told me so, I had to make up the 261 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: stories that went with the secrets. And I did want 262 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: to be honest. And I have kids say to me, 263 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: what's your superpower? I now have decided what my superpower is. 264 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 2: It's my memory. 265 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: Oh that's fascinating in what way. 266 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: I had a fantastic memory for the details of being 267 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: a child, and I still do. I mean, I may 268 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: not know where my glasses are, or my keys, or 269 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 2: you know, and remember to put on my little hearing aids, 270 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: but I still have that memory for long ago. 271 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: And children are very observant, and so children know a 272 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: lot more than they are given credit for, don't. 273 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: They They did? 274 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 3: You know. 275 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: I have a bookstore in Key West, and when especially 276 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 2: a young child comes into the bookstore, you know, we 277 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: can look into each other's eyes. I think this anyway, 278 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 2: and we recognize something there. I'm talking four or five 279 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: six year old. You know, the parent or the grandparent 280 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: has always read this book. Get this book, you know, 281 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: and I just make eye contact with the child. I'm 282 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: careful in the bookstore not to say to the parents, no, 283 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: don't do that. And then when it's older kids, it's like, 284 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: please please just let them brows and choose their own books. 285 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: Don't stand there and say, no, that's not a real 286 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: book because it's a graphic novel. Don't stand there and 287 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: say that's a comic book and you can't have you know. 288 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I, as much as 289 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: I read books, I love comic books. 290 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: I did too. 291 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: Brenda star Girl reporter. 292 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: Oh, Brenda Starr covered you know, she was carried in 293 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: the Chicago Tribune. She was and this sounds ridiculous, but 294 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: you'll understand she was the only grown up woman character 295 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: that I knew of who had a job, and not 296 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: just a job, a glamorous, exciting job, and a boyfriend 297 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: with a patch over his eye. I mean, the whole 298 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: thing was so seductive, and I was a faithful reader 299 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: because it took me out of my present circumstances, because 300 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: none of that existed where I was living. 301 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: You probably don't remember this, but once I interviewed you 302 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: for the twenty fifth anniversary, I think of Sesame Street 303 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: and this has to do with Brenda Star. And that 304 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: morning I was getting dressed and George, my husband, took 305 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: a photo of me a little polaroid and it says 306 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: Brenda Star, girl reporter going off to meet with Hiller. 307 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love that. Oh you've got to 308 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: send me a screenshot of the polaroid. 309 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 3: Oh, I love it. 310 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: We're taking a quick break. Stay with us. You know 311 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: the recent documentary about you. I had a documentary done 312 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: about me. I don't know about you, but it's scary. 313 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you basically agree and then, at 314 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: least in my case, is kind of out of your 315 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: hands and off we go. Did you find that as well? 316 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: I didn't want to do it. 317 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't want to do it. 318 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: But I like the filmmakers very much and I trusted them. 319 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: Right, That's how I ended up. But that was not 320 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: an easy process to get to. But you know, one 321 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: of the things that struck me that's in the documentary 322 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: is the correspondence that you've had over the years with 323 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: your readers. I didn't know that. I mean, you know, 324 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: I had a similar experience in a way when Chelsea 325 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: was five years old. She wrote a letter to President 326 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: Reagan because we were talking at the dinner table that 327 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: he was going to Germany and he was going to 328 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: go visit a cemetery where a lot of Nazis were buried, 329 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: and Bill and I were, you know, really unhappy about that, 330 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: and we were talking about it over dinner, and so 331 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: Chelsea started asking these questions like, you know, what does 332 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: this mean? Who were the Nazis? What happened? And then 333 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: she said she wanted to write a letter to President Reagan. 334 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: And she wrote a letter, you know, asking us to 335 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: help her spell. But she basically said, dear President Reagan, 336 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: please don't go visit the cemetery. The Nazis were not nice. 337 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: I saw the sound of music. Oh that's how we 338 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: related it to her, and we sent the letter off 339 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 1: and she never got a response. I mean for weeks 340 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: she would, you know, come home from school and say 341 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: did I get a letter? And I'd have to tell 342 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: her no. So when Bill was elected president and we 343 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: were moving to the White House, I asked her, I said, well, 344 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: is there anything you particularly want your dad to do 345 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: as president? And she said, I want him to make 346 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: sure that every child who writes him a letter gets 347 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: an answer. So we set up this big correspondence unit 348 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: literally to answer kids letters. Most of whom in it 349 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: were volunteers, wonderful people who took a day out of 350 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: their week to come do this. So when I learned 351 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: that you had correspondents with kids who read your letters, 352 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: and those letters are now in the Yale University Archives, 353 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: I was so touched. Talk to us about how that 354 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: started and what it meant to you. 355 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 2: Well, it was a huge surprise, you know, that first 356 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 2: that somebody read my book, and then that that child 357 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: would think to write to me. That the first letter 358 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: was from a twelve year old girl, and I guess 359 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: she had read Margaret because that was public. That was 360 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 2: my third published book and the first one that really 361 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: got out there. And I mean I was so excited. 362 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: Of course I wrote back, and that was the beginning. 363 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: It did reach a point where it took over my life. 364 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 2: It became so difficult. Then I didn't know what to do. 365 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 2: I actually consulted with a therapist because there were some 366 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 2: as you know, that went on for years and years 367 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: and years. You actually didn't get in the documentary the 368 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: really well you got one serious woman. There there were 369 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: many others, many, many, many others. 370 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: I want our listeners to understand if they haven't seen 371 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: the documentary, that we're talking about children writing you with 372 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: serious problems, even you know, threatening suicide and just pouring 373 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: their little hearts out to you. 374 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean with that comes a great responsibility, does 375 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: It does? Because you can't ignore them. You want to 376 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: try to help. And that's when I consulted with someone 377 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: because there was one particular kid that I just grew 378 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: to love and I I wanted to save her, and 379 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: the professional helped me understand that I couldn't necessarily save 380 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: her or any of the others, but I could be 381 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: a supportive friend, and that just by acknowledging what they 382 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: were writing about, you know, acknowledging their lives and their problems, 383 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 2: that that was a good thing to do. 384 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: You know, I've had somewhat similar experiences in public life 385 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: where people either write to me or whisper in my 386 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: ear and confide, you know, deeply personal stories, struggles, questions, 387 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: And on the one hand it is such a responsibility, 388 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: it's also such an honor that, for whatever reason, some 389 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: other human being, often a young person, is willing to 390 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: open up to you. You know, people want to be 391 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: heard and they want to be seen, especially children. You know, 392 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: I was talking to a group of teenagers because you know, 393 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: there's a lot of legitimate worry about what's happening with teens, 394 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: especially teenage girls today, and the rise of anxiety and 395 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: depression and eating disorders, and the linkage with you know, 396 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: what happens on social media. And I asked this, you know, 397 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: a group of fifteen sixteen year olds what they thought 398 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: could be helpful. I mean, were there you know, programs 399 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: or people. And one of them said to me, you 400 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: just don't understand how hard it is to talk to 401 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: your own parents. 402 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: That's just what I was going to say. Why did 403 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: they all write to me, or why did they write 404 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: to you and confide in us? Because it's so hard 405 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 2: to talk to your parents. It's so much easier when 406 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: you don't see the person at the breakfast table the 407 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: next day. You know, in my day, I mean, it 408 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: was a letter. So they was writing a letter and 409 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 2: sealing it and putting a stamp on it, putting it 410 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 2: in the mailbox, and. 411 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: That was it. 412 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: They got out what they had to get out. They 413 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 2: didn't know I would answer them. They just got it 414 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: out in a safe way. They didn't want to talk 415 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 2: to their parents about it. 416 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. And now, of course we're engaged, 417 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: and yet another battle over children what they read, the 418 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: books that are in libraries, school libraries, you know, by 419 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: outspoken groups of parents who are reaffirming that stereotype. You know, 420 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk to my children about these 421 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: difficult issues, and I don't want anybody else either talking 422 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: to them or writing something. 423 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: And I don't want them reading it because it's dangerous. 424 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: They're afraid. I mean, that was pretty much the way 425 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: it was in the eighties, the book banning craze of 426 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 2: the eighties. It's never gone away, but it's hasn't been 427 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: so intrusive. But today what's so scary is that it's 428 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: coming from government it's coming from state legislatures. It's coming 429 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 2: for you know, I'm a resident of that state. We 430 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 2: used to say, oh, Key West, isn't Florida, you know, 431 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 2: we used to be able to joke about that. But 432 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: we have the same governor, we have the same legislatures. 433 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: I've I just read that forty percent of the book 434 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: banning in school libraries is from the state of Florida. 435 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 1: That doesn't surprise me. 436 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: So very scary stuff going on. 437 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: And it's also it allows literally one parent with I 438 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: would argue a political agenda to demand that a book 439 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 1: be withdrawn. And as you know far better than I, 440 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: you've consistently had some of your books on the American 441 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: Library Association's lists of most challenged books. I hope you 442 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: wear that as a badge of honor. And that does 443 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: go all the way back to the nineteen eighties. How 444 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: did you feel when somebody like Phyllis Schlaffley, for example, 445 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: of a name from the past, would attack you and 446 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: attack your books and say that the material was too 447 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: sexually explicit and everything they accused you of When that 448 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: happened to you, were you as shocked as I think 449 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: you should have been. 450 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, it was depressing. I'm a person 451 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: who likes to get out there and do something, and 452 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do, and the publishers weren't 453 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 2: so much behind us then as they are now. Interest 454 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: I found then, or maybe they've found me, the National 455 00:27:54,920 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: Coalition Against Censorship, And once I found them, I knew 456 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: what to do. I had my people. You know, that's 457 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 2: the thing is, you're not as lone as you think 458 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: you are. You're not the only person this is happening to, 459 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 2: just like getting your period right, the other people being banned, 460 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 2: and here is an organization that's working to promote the 461 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 2: freedom to read, intellectual freedom. 462 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: It can be so liberating and empowering. It was. It 463 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: really cuts through the loneliness that not just children but 464 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: people feel, you know, to discover there is somebody else 465 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: like you, somebody else has bumped up against that obstacle. 466 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: And you know, but you've said before, I read somewhere 467 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: that you can't debate the zealots, but you got to 468 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: find a way to fight back, and you do have 469 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: to try to rally other people, fair minded people who 470 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: don't want books to be banned in our country. How 471 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: do you find that balance? Really tough between advocacy that's 472 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: productive and then getting into these you know, downward spiral 473 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: loops of arguing with the zellots. 474 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: I now think that the way to go, Yes, people 475 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 2: should speak out, but I think the way to go 476 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: is to join forces with the great organizations that we 477 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: have pen America National Coalition against Censorship, ALA, American Library Association. 478 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: They all have programs, they know what to do. And 479 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: this is what I tell people who ask me. I say, 480 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: join up, join up, find out, join just if you 481 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 2: can even read one website and get your information and 482 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 2: then become part of this. 483 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: And I hope all of our listeners will follow that recommendation, 484 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: because you know, we need more and more people supporting 485 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: the organization and speaking out. You know, I have to 486 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: say that the recent filming of your extraordinary book Are 487 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: You Their God, It's me, Margaret, must have also been 488 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: challenging for you because it was like putting one of 489 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: your children out there, wasn't it to find out what 490 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: people thought? 491 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 2: Well, I waited fifty years. I waited fifty years to 492 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 2: find the right team, right, Yeah, that was important and 493 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 2: I'm so glad I waited because most writers of the 494 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: original material don't like their movies. 495 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: I've heard that from everything. 496 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 2: I love this movie. I love it, love it, love it. 497 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: I just I loved every minute of working with them, 498 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: you know. I mean I didn't write the screenplay, but 499 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 2: they were always sending me drafts, and we were always 500 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: talking about backstories. They were very inclusive. I was on 501 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: the set for five weeks, and I do love it. 502 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: I love the movie, and I'm so happy that it 503 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: got such wonderful reviews. 504 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: I also thought that book in particular, not only stood 505 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: the test of time, but was theologically very very important. 506 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 2: Nobody knew then. 507 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 1: You know. 508 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: I meet adults who come into the bookstore and they say, 509 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 2: I just read Margaret again, and you know, I don't 510 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: remember anything about religion. Did you put that in later? 511 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: It's like, no, it was always there. They just remember, 512 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: you know, what was important to them at that time, 513 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 2: which was puberty and friends and family. 514 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: You know, I remember when I was I was writing 515 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: It Takes a Village back in the early nineties, and 516 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: I had a chapter about, you know, kids are theologians 517 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: in part you know, motivated by your book because kids 518 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: start asking questions when they're relatively young. You know what 519 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: happens when you die? Or does God watch us all 520 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: the time? And you know, that's another subject that is 521 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: really important to children, but there aren't very many books 522 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: that have written about it. But you're taking Margaret and 523 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: putting her into a kind of dialogue with God was 524 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: so important. 525 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: That was me, That was me. I had a dialogue 526 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: going really to make sure that my father was safe 527 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 2: in two school years when we weren't together, which is 528 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: the story to Miami, right, yeah, that's a story of 529 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: starring Sally J. Freeman as herself. But that is when 530 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: I became I became kind of obsessive about these prayers 531 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: that I invented and I had to do this and 532 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: I had to do that to make sure my father 533 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: was safe. It was like what a burden for a 534 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: nine year old, right, oh, yeah, to think it's up 535 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 2: to me to keep him safe. And then he was 536 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: flying back and forth and flying was was something well 537 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: it was so new then, commercial flying, commercial flights so new, 538 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: and I had to work so hard to protect him. 539 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: And you're so right that children often assume responsibilities for 540 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: what happens in their families that their families have no 541 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: idea about it. When you said that. I just remembered 542 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: this game we used to play when we walked to school, 543 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: and we you know, we'd be chanting if you step 544 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: on a crack, you'll break your father's back. Remember that, 545 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: because the sidewalks had, you know, cracks between the squares 546 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: of concrete, and I mean we would be totally obsessed 547 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: with not stepping on a crack so we wouldn't break 548 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: our father's back. 549 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: I mean, in my case, it was break your mother's back. 550 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 2: I don't know why that was. 551 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: I literally could talk to you forever, but I want 552 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: to before we have to wrap up. I wanted to 553 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: ask you know, you're you've said that you're not going 554 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: to write any more books. You're eighty five, now you're 555 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: running the book store in Key West. You and your 556 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: husband have a really full and loving life from everything 557 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: that has been described, taking walks and doing things together. 558 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: What did that feel like to say I'm going to 559 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: stop writing books. 560 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 2: It felt great, you know what, fifty years, five oh years, 561 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 2: and it changed my life and I'm so glad that 562 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 2: I had it in my life. But then it got 563 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 2: to be you know, locked up, locked up for another 564 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: five years because the last book, and I'm so glad 565 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: I went out on this book. Took me five years, 566 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 2: so it's a relief. People say, don't you miss writing, 567 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,879 Speaker 2: and like, no, I know, I don't even know how 568 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 2: I did it, you know, but I did it, and 569 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 2: I do have a full life. And I'm grateful that 570 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 2: the bookstore came along just when I said, that's it, 571 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 2: I'm done writing. 572 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: That's so great to hear here, because you know, when 573 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: chapters close in your life, you can either feel regretful 574 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: and disappointed, or you can sort of look forward to, Okay, 575 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: what's the next adventure. What happens you know now? And 576 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: I've heard you've taken up or you can be found 577 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: tap dancing. 578 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 2: Oh that goes back to I think I started tap 579 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: dancing when I moved to New York. Originally I was 580 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 2: maybe forty ish and I saw a tap dancing class 581 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 2: above the bagel shop on eighty whatever Street, and I said, 582 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 2: I'm going to do that, and I did become obsessive 583 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: about it. I loved it. I didn't want to do 584 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 2: anything but go to tap class. And when we moved 585 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 2: to Key West, of course, you know, I put away 586 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: my tap shoes and then we found we had a 587 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: teacher in Key West, and so I took out the 588 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: top shoes and loved it. I haven't done it in 589 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: a while. 590 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit. 591 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 2: You know what my doctor says to me. The only 592 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 2: advice I have is do not fall. 593 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: That's the last word my doctor says to me every 594 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 1: time I see her, do not fall. 595 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: And so I don't know, but maybe I love it. 596 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: I still walk along the street and I do certain 597 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: riffs that I learned way back then. Yes, I can still. 598 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 2: I can still top dance. It's because my mother said, 599 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 2: Jewish girls don't tap. Jewish girls take ballet. And I 600 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: loved ballet, but I also wanted to slap my feet 601 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: on the ground. It's so satisfying, and so I waited 602 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 2: a long time to do it. But then I I 603 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 2: got pretty good. I bet you were not great, not great, 604 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 2: but pretty good. 605 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: Well to finally wrap up, Judy, which is just such 606 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: a joy talking to you, I'm wondering if you were 607 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: to talk to your own eight or nine year old self, 608 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,399 Speaker 1: you know, back when you were growing up, or or 609 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: fast forwarding talk to eight or nine year olds today, 610 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: what would you say about both the traditional and some 611 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: of the new challenges that kids have to navigate. 612 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 2: Oh my god, listen, listen to yourself, ask your questions 613 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: to somebody you trust, and never give up. You know, 614 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 2: that's the thing determination really, when you say get the 615 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 2: job done, it's determination as much as talent or anything else. 616 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 2: It's I am determined. So find what you love to 617 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: do and do it. Yeah. 618 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: Well, Judy Bloom, thank you for finding. 619 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 4: What you love to do all those years ago, starting 620 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 4: you know, when you literally were a child with all 621 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 4: your questions and your curiosity, and then sharing everything that 622 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 4: you were thinking and giving young people but some not 623 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 4: so young, the comfort. 624 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: And really the sense of belonging that your stories have provided. 625 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: And I hope I'll get to see you tap dance 626 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: sometime in the future. If I ever get to Key West, 627 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: I'm coming right to that bookstore. 628 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: Thank you, Y. I don't know if you'll see me 629 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 2: tap dancing, but I surely would like to see you. 630 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 631 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 1: For more of Judy, go check out the documentary Judy 632 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 1: Bloom Forever on Amazon Prime, or go back and read 633 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 1: one of your favorite books by her. You know, speaking 634 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: of books we loved as kids. When I was younger, 635 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: I was a big fan of the Nancy Drew series. 636 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: I still love a good mystery, and especially one that 637 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: is written by my dear friend and one of my 638 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: favorite authors, Louise Penny, who's also been a guest on 639 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 1: this podcast. Louise is best known for her award winning 640 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: series revolving around Inspector Gomash up in Quebec and the 641 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: tight knit community in eastern Quebec that he is part of. 642 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: You know, for some reason, that little town of Three 643 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: Pines always seems to be in the throes of yet 644 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: another murder, and Louise and I had so much fun 645 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: collaborating on our own political mystery thriller, State of Terror. 646 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: When I had her on the podcast, we talked about 647 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: how she first discovered mysteries. 648 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 3: I remember clearly the first time, because I was a 649 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 3: voracious reader as a child, but never crime novels. And 650 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: I remember coming up the stairs and my mother came 651 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 3: out of the bedroom and it was mid afternoon or so, 652 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 3: and she was holding a book and she said, you know, 653 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 3: I just finished this book and I think you'd like it. 654 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,840 Speaker 3: And she handed it to me and it was still 655 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 3: warm from her hands, and it was an Agatha Christian. 656 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 3: It was the first time that my mother and I 657 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 3: I shared a book. It's become magic since then, and 658 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 3: I've had such a soft spot for Christy since then 659 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 3: as well, and for crime novels. 660 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: You can find this conversation and so many others with 661 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: people I admire. Just go to You and Me Both 662 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. You and Me Both is 663 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: brought to you by iHeart Podcasts. We're produced by Julie Subren, 664 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, with help from Kuma Abadeen, 665 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: Oscar Flores, Lindsey Hoffman, Sarah Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona Valmorro 666 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: and Lily Weber. Our engineer is Zach McNeice, and the 667 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: original music is by Forrest Gray. If you like You 668 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: and Me Both, tell someone else about it. And if 669 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for? 670 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: You can subscribe to You and Me Both on the 671 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 672 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and I'll see you next week.