1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: You forgetting a situation and you're thinking, like, what would 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: be my dream way to kill this person? 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: All the time? 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 3: No, okay, maybe maybe sometimes I don't know. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: Just to think about the rhyme, to think about it. 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 3: Well, for centuries, people have asked themselves this question, uh, 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: historically speaking, what what what what would it take to 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 3: just get rid of this inconvenient person in my life? 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: Right without getting in trouble? 10 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, without getting caught. 11 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 3: It turns out there is a perfect answer to this question, uh. 12 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: And then you'll find it in all kinds of cool 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 3: detective novels, you know, Agatha Christie, Our snick and old 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 3: Lace comes to mind, right, because our snick was an odorless, tasteless, 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 3: clear substance that could very easily be snuck into somebody's 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: cup o tea, you know, or perhaps administered in various 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 3: and sundry other ways without the ever knowing. And again, 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: because of the lack of forensic technology that existed in 19 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: the days of yr, was unlikely to ever be traced 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: back to the perpetrator of said the heinous crime. 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: So tune in to learn how what our brit friends 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: call the old inheritance powder became the assassin's dream weapon. 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Are you a 24 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: jilted lover a turn bit of from every Tom, Dick 25 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: and Harry that comes calling? Are you a child of 26 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: well desperate to make progress through a little bit of 27 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: italianation or inheritance spouder? If so, tune in quickly to 28 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: this episode of Ridiculous History. 29 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: My name is Ben. Ben. Your fast talking's got my 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: head spinning. You made me forget my name once again. 31 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 2: Give me one second. Okay, it's nol and it's true. 32 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: This is Ridiculous History, And I'm just gonna say right 33 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 2: out of the front of the show, I'm a little 34 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: horse today as opposed to a giant, luxurious steed. 35 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: Huh worth it well, you don't know. I think it 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: gives a bit of gravitas to your statements. 37 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 2: And hopefully our super producer, Casey Pegram can fix it 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: in post. 39 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: The man is a wizard, I am telling you he 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: is also. In addition to being quite talented, Casey Pegram 41 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: is also a very i would say, principled man. 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: That's true. If he was ever to slip you a mickey, 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: he would have damn good reason. Let me tell you 44 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: what it would be, a justified mickey. 45 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, we had talked about this off the air. If 46 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: either of us ever walked by and saw a super producer, 47 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Casey Pegrim dragging a body sized garbage bag down the street, 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: we would just pick up the other end and help 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: him move it, because even if it were a body, 50 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: he would have good reason for his actions. 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: And you know that antiquated term slipped him a mickey 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 2: or her a mickey I just use typically referred more 53 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 2: to lacing a drink with a psychoactive drug or something 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: that would incapacitate someone, not necessarily kill them, like the 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: mickeys that we're talking about today would. 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Today we are talking about the 57 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: dark art of poison. Not just any poison. However, we're 58 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: talking about one of the most storied, notorious, and for 59 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: a time popular poisons in human civilization. We'd like to 60 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: introduce you to arsenic. 61 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: That's right. It actually earned the title the King of 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: Poison by the fifteenth century, but it had a quite 63 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: rich history even well before that. 64 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: Right, we know that ancient Egyptians mind arsenic compounds. We 65 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: know that in one of the very very early pharmacological 66 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: text the d Materia medica arsenic is also mentioned. This 67 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: is a naturally occurring element that is just across the planet, 68 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: and you can find a map of naturally occurring arsenic 69 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: here in the United States. It's spooky, it's scary stuff. 70 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: And the fact that it was naturally occurring is one 71 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: of the many reasons that made it such a popular 72 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: tool for getting the job done, because it was easy 73 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: to get because of its use in everything from medication 74 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: to pesticides, to industrial processing materials and things like that. 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: And it is odorless, colorless, and tasteless and dissolves in 76 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 2: water and any other liquids easily in its oxide form. 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: The word arsenic itself comes from from the Greek arsenacon, 78 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: which meant bold or potent, and that is an apt 79 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: moniker for this little killer. 80 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: And we do know that even in ancient times people 81 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 1: were aware of arsenic's potential as a poison. The first 82 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: law against poisoning was passed in eighty two BCE. It 83 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:29,239 Speaker 1: was a Roman law that specifically mentioned outline arsenic because 84 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: it was used so often by assassins. And Noel, I 85 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: love that you point out the medicinal or the perceived 86 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 1: medicinal benefits of Arsenic, because that's a thread that we 87 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: see continuing concurrently with its popularity as a poison. And earlier, 88 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: just a moment ago, we mentioned that the fifteenth century 89 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: is crucial to Arsenic's role as a poison, used by 90 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: everyone from lovers to assassins to wealthy Italian aristocrats. This 91 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: is the moment where if Arsenic was some sort of 92 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: pop star, it suddenly recorded its breakout single yeah. 93 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: And I think the reason that that's a good way 94 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: to put it is because it actually had a substance 95 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: had a huge impact on politics, especially in Italy. Italians, 96 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: as it turns out, had quite the reputation of wielding 97 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: this substance and poisons in general for political gain. So 98 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: in the Italian Renaissance, you may have heard of the 99 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: Borgia family, and there was a I think there was 100 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: a Netflix series called The Borgos or maybe it was 101 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: an AMC or something like that, but you can get 102 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: it and with Jeremy irons is in it. But it 103 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 2: chronicles this pretty shady Italian Renaissance family that were quite powerful. 104 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: In fact, Rodrigo Borgia, who actually went on to become 105 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: Pope Alexander the sixth and fourteen ninety two, so no 106 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: slouch and big, big social climbers these and he had 107 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: two children. One was Cesare, so I think hope I 108 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: did okay, and then the other one was Lucrezia. And 109 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: Lucrezia actually is the one who got sort of a 110 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: bad rap as being a poisoner, because there is an 111 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: opera by Donazzetti called Lucrezia, and there's a scene in 112 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 2: it where she apparently poisons several people, five people, and 113 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: history doesn't really support that. In fact, she was apparently 114 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: quite a pious woman and died without probably ever having 115 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: poisoned anyone. Had just credit where credit is due. Upfront, 116 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: we're getting a lot of this information from a fantastic 117 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 2: book called The King of Poisons the History of Arsenic 118 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 2: by John Pariscandola. So Lucretia seems to have her hands 119 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: mostly clean, but her brother Chesai or Cesare is the 120 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 2: one who really took this to the next level. And 121 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: as we'll get to it's interesting because poison got a 122 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: bit of a rap as a quote unquote woman's weapon 123 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: of that later, so Chesare Borgia apparently was guilty of 124 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: just poisoning hundreds of people dozens at the very least 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: in his pursuit of a political career. 126 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: It was like hism o, his modus operandi. What's fascinating 127 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: here is that poisoning via arsenic became so prevalent and 128 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: well known in Italy that it was considered a formal 129 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: method of assassination. And earlier in the beginning of the show, 130 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: you may have heard the phrase italianation italianation. I do 131 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: love that Italianation was the slaying term for poisoning via 132 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: arsenic outside of Italy. 133 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: I think the Brits came up with that one, and 134 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: very British. And we'll get to how this ultimately spread 135 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 2: from Italy elsewhere. Before we do that, I just want 136 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: to talk about this. There were a handful of poison 137 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: assassins that really made names for themselves, one of whom 138 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 2: was Julia to Lato Fauna, which I love. All of 139 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: these assassins have these amazing shorthand names. And she her 140 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 2: story goes a couple of different ways. There's there's there's 141 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: several versions of it. But one version is that she 142 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: invented this mixture, a harmless looking liquid that apparently is 143 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: as few as four to six drops would be enough 144 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: to quote destroy a man. And the principal ingredient in 145 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: this material, which was called aqua tofauna, is thought to 146 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: have been arsenic. And you got to think about the 147 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: time we're talking about where men ruled families and governments 148 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 2: iron fists, and women were nothing but chattel. So to 149 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: empower women with this material was lots of Funa was 150 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: able to do because it you know, there are many 151 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: historians who say every woman in Naples probably had a 152 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: bottle of this stuff in their you know, medicine cabinets 153 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: among their perfumes, that only they would know which one 154 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: it was. 155 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: This is this is a crucial point because I don't 156 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: know if we're jumping ahead too much with this, but 157 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: it seems like a good time to mention the method 158 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: of delivery that was employed often in Italy. It wasn't 159 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: an immediate death, and this is a instead a slow poisoning, 160 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: so you would have there's this old myth I found, 161 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: or this old legend that said women in particular parts 162 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: of Italy, to keep their husbands faithful, would supply them 163 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: with a small amount of poison and then a small antidote, 164 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 1: so they had to keep coming back home. But regardless 165 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: of the rat veracity or falsity of that, we do 166 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: know is true that people were being poisoned slowly rather 167 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: than immediately often. 168 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: You know it's true. And I actually found another fantastic 169 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 2: article called aquatafauna, slow poisoning and husband killing in seventeenth 170 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: century Italy from a website called a Blast from the Past, 171 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: and it's really kind of just a blog, but it 172 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: was written by Wow. It's not even really credited as 173 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: having an author, but I checked everything and it had 174 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: really great qualifying links and just a fantastic article, specifically 175 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: talking about the role that women played in this whole 176 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: poisoning epidemic, and Lata Fanna especially being kind of the 177 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: one that jump started that, and how a lot of 178 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: her story is sort of the stuff of legends. But 179 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: to your point, then, the idea of the slow poisoning 180 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 2: was really important in very devout Catholic Italy, right because 181 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: it gave the dying husband time to do a couple 182 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: of things, one of which was get his affairs in order. 183 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: If you're talking about this inheritance powder, making sure that 184 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: the wife would be well provided for and the family 185 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: would have all that he needed. After he passed, or 186 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: the church would have a donation, the church would have 187 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 2: a donation, or that he was able to repent for 188 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: his sins. So this is a really interesting thing because 189 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: that slow meeting out of poison through food or drink 190 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: was really a crucial part of this whole thing. And 191 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 2: there's a fantastic quote in this article from Chambers Journal, 192 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: which was a magazine started in eighteen thirty two by 193 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: William Chambers. And it's a little long. I'm just going 194 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: to read part of it just to kind of give 195 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: the sense of at the time how this was looked upon. 196 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: Administered in wine or tea or some other liquid by 197 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 2: the flattering traitress, it produced but a scarcely noticeable effect. 198 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: The husband became a little out of sorts, felt weak 199 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: and languid, so little indisposed that he would scarcely call 200 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: in a medical man. After the second dose of the poison, 201 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: this weakness and languor became more pronounced the beautiful Medea. 202 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: See there's a lot of language in here that characterizes 203 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: this woman as some sort of horrible, murderous, harpy type character, 204 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: like referencing Medea. But obviously, you know, in political landscape 205 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: of the time. There's kind of a gray area there, 206 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: but we'll get to that later. This beautiful Medea, who 207 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: expressed so much anxiety for her husband's indisposition, would scarcely 208 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: be an object of suspicion, and perhaps would prepare her 209 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 2: husband's food or prescribed by the doctor with her own 210 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: fair hands. In this way, the third drop would be 211 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: administered and would prostrate even the most vigorous man. Okay, 212 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 2: And then this is the last bit to save her 213 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 2: fair fame, the wife would demand a post mortem examination, 214 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: resulting nothing except that the woman was able to pose 215 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: as a slandered innocent and then it would be remembered 216 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: that her husband died without either pain, inflammation, fever, or spasms. 217 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: This is important because for a long time, arsenic was 218 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: a difficult poison to identify. Not only was it odorless 219 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: and colorless and so on, but arsenic poisoning exhibited symptoms 220 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: that could easily be confused with symptoms of diseases that 221 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: were common at the time, such as cholera, which you 222 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: will remember from several other strange episodes we have done 223 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: on Ridiculous History. And because again it was naturally occurring 224 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: and considered medicinal people were able to easily obtain arsenic. This, 225 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, in our earlier episode on Guy Fox we 226 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: talked about the relative ease or difficulty of acquiring gunpowder. 227 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: It was much easier to acquire arsenic. And additionally, arsenic 228 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: was used in so many other things. We'll get to 229 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: that in just a second. I have a great list 230 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: for you know, but before we do, I think we 231 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: need to bust some stereotypes here. The idea of poison 232 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: being so closely associated with Italy. This concept thrived because 233 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: it sort of justified the stereotypes that the French or 234 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: the British already had about Italians. They thought they were devious, 235 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, Monty burns as canned rubbers. Sure, and they 236 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: often described it, you know, as an italianation or as 237 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: an Italian method of murder, with the connotations being that 238 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: somehow cowardly. But the French and the British both were 239 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: often using arsenic. They were just claiming it was an 240 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: Italian thing. 241 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: It's true. It was actually Catherine de Medici, who married 242 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: Henry the Second, who would go on to become the 243 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: King of France in fifteen thirty three, who is given 244 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: lots of credit for bringing the Italian method of assassination 245 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 2: to France, and specifically in using it for political gain. 246 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: Yes, and by the sixteenth century, court records revealed that 247 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: cases involving poisoning were occurring regularly in Britain, if not frequently. 248 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: There were about a dozen recorded poisonings between fifteen seventy 249 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: one and fifteen ninety eight. And of course one of 250 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: the most popular choices of poison was in a stunning 251 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: plot twist arsenic. 252 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in France, Louis the fourteenth got so weirded 253 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: out by this thing and feared for his life to 254 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: the point that he established a special commission with the 255 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 2: express purpose of investigating this phenomenon. It took him until 256 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: sixteen eighty two to finish, during which time one hundred 257 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: and four people were tried, thirty four were executed, and 258 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 2: the rest were either banished or got prison terms. And 259 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: then this is the first time you start to see 260 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 2: maybe not super well codified regulations regarding the sale of poison, 261 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: but it was a little bit more draconian, where if 262 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 2: you were caught supplying someone poison for the purposes of 263 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: committing a murder, whether or not they succeeded, you would 264 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: be subject to death yourself. 265 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: Right, So not a fine, not imprisonment, but a hard 266 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: death penalty if you are even accidentally associated with an 267 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: unsuccessful murder attempt. And as we trace Arsenic in the 268 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: world of Western Europe, I guess as you say the region, 269 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: but saying the world of Western Europe sounded cool, you know, 270 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: had this time life vibe. Anyhow, as we see, the 271 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: laws were slow to evolve in step with Arsenic's evolution 272 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: in terms of popularity. In fact, before eighteen fifty one, 273 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: there were no laws against selling poison in England. There's 274 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: just it just hadn't occurred to anybody that there should 275 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: be a law against that end. Amidst the panopoly of 276 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: poisons available there, it was especially easy to purchase arsenic. 277 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: Now I like that one. Then the panopoly of poisons. 278 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 2: That's a good one. 279 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: Ah, thanks so much man. Amidst this great selection, did 280 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: we mention the difference between naturally occurring arsenic and arsenic 281 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: compounds yet a. 282 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: Little bit at the top of the show. But why 283 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: don't we circle back? Because I think that is a 284 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: good point and something worth exploring just a little bit further. 285 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: So we mentioned that arsenic was a known thing that 286 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: occurred in the natural world, and you could see it 287 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: in soil, you could see it in groundwater. But what 288 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: is what is white arsenic? 289 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: What do we mean when we say that arsenic is 290 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: of course an element and the symbol is as and 291 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: its atomic number is thirty three with a mass of 292 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 2: seventy four point nine, and it is in group fifteen 293 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: of the periodic table, along with things like nitrogen, bismuth, phosphorus, 294 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 2: and antimony, and it is considered a metalloid. 295 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: It's the twentieth most common element I believe in soil. 296 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: That's right. And apparently it's estimated that its concentration in 297 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: the Earth's crust goes from between one to five parts 298 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: per million, which means that it is not particularly prevalent 299 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: in the Earth's crust, but it's associated with so many 300 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: other metals and human activities that it becomes more prevalent 301 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: in the Earth's crust. 302 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: And this means that it is entirely possible for people 303 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: to receive arsenic poisoning without someone attempting to poison them, right. 304 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 2: I think even in our Poison Squad episode where we 305 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: talked about adulterants in food, Arsenic low levels of arsenic, 306 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: that is, was one of the potential adulterants that Harvey's 307 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: poison squad we're looking at right. 308 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: So white arsenic then is a poisonous trioxide of arsenic, 309 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: which no I believe you mentioned at the top of 310 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: the show. And it has legitimate uses. It's been used 311 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: as a pesticide, rat poison, it's been used to manufacture glass. 312 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: But it was just top notch when it came to 313 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: being an agent of mortality. But along with this, I 314 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: think this is important to mention. I don't know if 315 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: this fascinated you as much as it fascinated me, But 316 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: along with this known use of arsenic as a tool 317 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: for assassination, it was also used in so many other things. 318 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: It went into food coloring, it was used in beauty 319 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: products such as Get This arsenic complexion wafers. They were 320 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: meant for women who wanted to remove limishes or felt 321 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: that their hands were too darkly colored. That stuff was 322 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: still available in the nineteen twenties. There's this excellent article 323 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: by Honeia Ray called When Poison was Everywhere Available at 324 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: the Atlantic, and it's a review of a book called 325 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: bitten by which fever, which examines all of the different 326 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: products that contained arsenic but were advertised also as containing arsenic, 327 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: like wallpaper, was huge. I had no idea, Yeah I was. 328 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: I really used in green pigment, I think is where Yeah, 329 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: I read absolutely, which is it was used in green 330 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: pigment and studdyingly popular due to a wallpaper manufacturer named 331 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: William Morris. 332 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: But what people found is that this green pigment was 333 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: so dangerous in terms of its arsenic content that some 334 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: of that wallpaper is still off gassing today, and books 335 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: that collected William Morris's wallpaper, several of them have to 336 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: be quarantined effectively, they have to be contained because you 337 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: can't flip through the pages without getting arsenic poisoning. 338 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: Jayce just from like touching it. Wow, well then I 339 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: think I for one really needed that little diversion from 340 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 2: all the chaos and death throughout history at the hands 341 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: of those wielding arsenics. So you know, a little tainted 342 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: wallpaper is a nice respite from this. But unfortunately we 343 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: do have to go back into this troubled history. 344 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: Ah, yes, to the history, and troubling is a perfect 345 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: word for it. Nol. We mentioned earlier some stuff about 346 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: France and some stuff about Italy. Let's take a closer 347 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,239 Speaker 1: look at England. We see in the Victorian era that 348 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: it was as you had mentioned earlier, arsenic was considered 349 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: a woman's weapon, quote unquote, and reviewing cases from England 350 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: in eighteen forties, researcher Ian Bernie found that in sixty 351 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: percent of the cases the used party was a woman, 352 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: thirty seven percent of whom were charged with poisoning their spouse. 353 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: And Burnie notes in seventy percent of these poisoning cases 354 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: the poison used was arsenic. It was much much more 355 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: popular than the I think the second most popular poison 356 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: would have been opium, but it was a distant second. 357 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: And you know, you mentioned again this idea of like 358 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: arsenic being a woman's weapon. It's such a derisive term. 359 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: In the same way that the whole italianation thing was 360 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: a way to kind of poo poo the Italians and 361 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: call them cowards. Calling it a women's weapon was basically 362 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 2: saying the women were weak, and the political landscape surrounding 363 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: their use of this, like I read at the top 364 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: of the show, largely, I mean, of course, there were 365 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 2: very nefarious reasons to use this material to have someone killed, 366 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: but a lot of times it was used by women 367 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: to get out from under the thumb of an abusive husband. 368 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: Women were abused, and it especially was true where a 369 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: lot of these high profile cases involved much more aristocratic 370 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: members society. But as it turns out in England especially, 371 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 2: it was much more likely to be used as a 372 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: tool of those in poverty because they had no recourse 373 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 2: to escaping these horrible lives. It was even used on 374 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: children when the family couldn't feed them anymore. So there's 375 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: a real dark history there. So I think it's really 376 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 2: important when we talk about these terms that we you know, 377 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: talk about the context too that they were wielded in. Right. 378 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, these became articles of oppression and tools of prejudice, 379 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: especially when considered that the data people were looking for 380 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: was largely constructed to conform to their pre existing views. 381 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: And we see the rank hypocrisy here as well. But 382 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: we see another big problem when when we ask about 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: how they knew that arsenic was found in these cases, 384 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: they didn't really have a way to test for it, 385 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: so they would have to struck a timeline, you know, 386 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: like the old English version of Casey Beckrum kills somebody 387 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: with arsenic? How do they know it's arsenic? The best 388 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 1: way they would be able to detect it for a 389 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: long time would be to speak with the person who 390 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: sold it to him. Thus the law in France right, 391 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: it was the best way to find arsenic. The first 392 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: known case in which convincing proof of poisoning ever showed 393 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: up in court didn't take place until seventeen fifty two 394 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: in Oxford, England. 395 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 2: Was that the one where they found the residue at 396 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: the bottom of the food bowl? Yes? Yes. 397 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: The accused party was a thirty one year old woman 398 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: named Mary Blandy. She was charged with poising her father 399 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: with arsenic And you heard about this one too, right, 400 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: I think we both read about this. Mary administered the 401 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: powder to her father in food and drink and he 402 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: became ill. But also two servants who had eaten some 403 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: of the same food suffered the same effect, and that's 404 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: when they noticed this powder. 405 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: And I think that circumstantial evidence of the servants having 406 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 2: eaten the food too and come down with the same 407 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: symptoms is what probably led the judge to be like, well, 408 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: clearly this was not entirely natural. Causes if there are 409 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 2: several people of different ages and health experiencing the same stuff. 410 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: And there were very as this book describes non specific 411 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: chemical tests that were done, which to me just kind 412 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: of says they probably weren't very good and didn't work 413 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: and weren't reliable, because, as we'll go on to discuss, 414 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 2: a real chemical test that actually unequivocally proved the existence 415 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: of this stuff in food or corpses wouldn't come along 416 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: for a little bit later, yea. And in fact, the 417 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: nature of the tests in this case were described as 418 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 2: showing that the materials used in the the food behaved 419 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: in the same way that oursnick would have. So it's 420 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: very very general stuff. She did actually can fest to 421 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 2: putting this powder into her father's food, but apparently she 422 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: claimed to have not known it was poison. And this 423 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: is interesting. Part of the story is that she was 424 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: having an affair with a Scottish soldier by the name 425 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: of William Crownston, and he heard that her father had 426 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: a sizable inheritance that she was due to receive. So 427 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, he makes he comes off sending like a 428 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: pretty pretty big rascal in this story, a real pill. Yeah, 429 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: but he gave the poison to Mary and told her 430 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: that if she gave it to her father, he would 431 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: be more likely to accept their romance. That was how 432 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: he put it. So she claimed that she didn't know 433 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: it was poison. Kind of played dumb a little bit there. 434 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 2: Unclear if she really believed that or not. Certainly doesn't 435 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: make her come off looking particularly sharp here, But the 436 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: jury did not buy it, right. 437 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: The jury did not buy it, and, partially based on 438 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: the arguments of the physician Anthony Addington, Mary was hanged. 439 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: Cranston fled to France and died soon afterwards. And this 440 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: all started bugging a chemist at the Royal Arsenal in Woolwich, England, 441 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: a chemists named James Marsh because he said that the 442 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: test Addington conducted were suggestive of arsenic but did not 443 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: provide conclusive evidence. The kind of stuff that we be 444 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: open and shut in a court of law. 445 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 2: Kinds of things we think about every day now with forensics, 446 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: you know, we take that stuff for granted, but it's 447 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: a pretty big deal and really eliminates a lot of 448 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 2: hearsay and a lot of very spurious evidence that could 449 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 2: ultimately convict people that were not guilty. Of the crime. 450 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: Yes, and for instance, he was called Marsh was called 451 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: up in eighteen thirty two to test for arsenic in 452 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: a murder case and Plumstead, the accused party, was charged 453 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: with murdering his grandfather and there was evidence that the 454 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: grandson had purchased arsenic purportedly as a rat poison. So 455 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: they asked Marsh to test some coffee that had made 456 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: several people in the house sick, including the grandfather, and 457 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: test the stomach contents of the corpse. He was able 458 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: to produce a yellow precipitate which showed the presence of 459 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: arsnake and the coffee, but this didn't really seal the 460 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: deal for the jury, and he couldn't prove there was 461 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: arsnake in the stomach. The jury acquitted the defendant. The grandson, 462 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: who later get this, came back and said, yeah, I 463 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: did it. 464 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: I totally did it, man, adding insults injury, especially for Marsh, 465 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: because he was incredibly irritated by this whole situation and 466 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: vowed to come up with a more let's say, stable test. 467 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 2: So he kind of piggybacked off of some of the 468 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: work of a chemist by the name of Carl Shiel 469 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: who figured out that arsenal acid reacts with zinc and 470 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: it creates this compound, this gaseous compound of arsenic and 471 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: hydrogen that is called ar sign. And again this is 472 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: all from King of Poisons, A History of Arsenic by 473 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 2: John Pariscondola. So marsh was able to improve his test 474 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: by piggybacking off of this research. So basically he was 475 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,479 Speaker 2: able to capture that gas and it leaves a film 476 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 2: on a material that he was then able to test that. 477 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 2: You had to heat it and then he would test it, 478 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: and then you could tell kind of roughly how much 479 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 2: arsenic was in the sample based on the size that 480 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 2: the film produced. So this is a good thing, right, 481 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: You could tell how much arsenic was in the sample 482 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: based on the size that film produced, and then any 483 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: other scientists worth their salt could test that sample and say, yes, 484 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: there is in fact arsenic in this There's no more 485 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: questionable methods we have. You know, we have a good 486 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 2: system for deciding whether or not this stuff is present 487 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: in everything from food samples to corpses. Post mortem, you 488 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: can do these tests on bodies. And then there is 489 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: even a better version of the test beyond that, where 490 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: you could detect smaller amounts, which is probably what you 491 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 2: would need for testing a corpse to find trace amounts 492 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 2: or see if there were amounts beyond normal atmospheric levels 493 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: of our snacks that would be found in a body 494 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: long after they had died. 495 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: Yes, beyond what I've decided to refer to as ambient arsenic. 496 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 2: Ambient arsenic. 497 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 1: So yeah, Hugo Range develops this quicker, simpler test in 498 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: eighteen forty one, and we see the dark magic of 499 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: arsenic being whittled away by the scientific method and the 500 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: advances of the day. And this leads to a tipping point. Now, 501 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: remember earlier we had said that there were some initial 502 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: laws royal edicts that came into play with arsenic before 503 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: it was possible to test word effectively. Now that we, 504 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: being human civilization, can tech the presence of arsenic, you 505 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: would think maybe its popularity dies down. However, not so, 506 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: at least not immediately. You see, arsenic was still readily 507 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: available and inexpensive. And if you're poisoning someone, then you're 508 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: hoping maybe this person will not be of enough consequence 509 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: to warrant a medical investigation. Maybe they'll say clearly they 510 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: had cholera. So now let's just bury them. And this 511 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: eventually led to Parliament saying we have to do something 512 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: about this. The attempted to pass legislation as early as 513 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen to regulate this sale. Finally regulate the sale 514 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: of poisoning drugs such as oxylic acid, corrosive subliminate or 515 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: mercuric chloride and of course arsenic. The drug store owners 516 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: were concerned that big Pharma yeah time ye, Cottage Pharma. Yeah. 517 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: Cottage Pharma at the time thought that this would interfere 518 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: with dispensing medicine, and they successfully opposed it. Opposed this 519 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: legislation and it was ultimately withdrawn. But that was just 520 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: the first volley of a longer legislative process. 521 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think things got a lot more like you 522 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 2: would see today with you know, if you could go 523 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: to buy cold medicine of the store, like for my kid, 524 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: I still have to enter my name into a registry 525 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: and show my ID to prove that I'm twenty one. 526 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: This is exactly the case, because you know, you can 527 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: use cold medicine to make methamphetomy. So in eighteen fifty one, 528 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 2: this thing passed called the Sale of Arsenic Regulation Act, 529 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: that required people buying arsenic to be twenty one years old, 530 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: and it required them to fill in their information in 531 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: a poison book or a register, and then they had 532 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: to sign for it. So you could have like much 533 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: more of a paper trail, much less of a he said, 534 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: She said, you know who bought the poison kind of situation. 535 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: So you know these things, these safeguards were put in place. 536 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: It didn't curb the use of arsenic entirely, and in fact, 537 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 2: in the United States, while it was not near a 538 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: popular as it had been in Britain, the colonies or whatever, 539 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: it was still going on. And you know, you can 540 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 2: argue in the same way you can about any kind 541 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: of regulation, whether me filling out that cold medicine registry, 542 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: you know, for buying my kids fair flu causes people 543 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: to make less methamphetomy. That as up for debate, but 544 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: a Storian, Catherine Watson, said that she was pretty sure 545 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: that it did have a gradual effect reducing poisoning crimes, 546 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: especially those involving arseny. But of course you could have 547 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 2: situations where people would maybe turn to other substances to 548 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: poison their enemies or mother in laws. 549 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, mothers in law. You know, I think it 550 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: depends on how many there are. So just to set 551 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: the scene for you, friends and neighbors, my co hosts 552 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: and I are looking a bit mournfully across our table 553 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: here in the podcasting studio because we realized there's so 554 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: many fascinating things about Arsenic that we probably won't get 555 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: into in this episode. No, I have with me a 556 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: list of famous people who were probably poisoned by Arsenic, 557 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: as well as updates on latest research about their deaths. Ah, 558 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: I got so much stuff, man, serial killers, we need 559 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: even get into that. 560 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: But then I have a story about a little village 561 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: in Hungary in nineteen twenty nine where a group of 562 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: women were prosecuted for poisoning like literally everyone in town 563 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 2: because they were all horrible, abusive men. I think yours 564 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 2: sounds less depressing. Let's go with yours, man. 565 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: I don't even know if we can. We might have 566 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: to post this on our community page. Ridiculous historians, just 567 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: rattle off a few, just give people a sweet taste 568 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: of that delicious poison. Alleged victims of Arsenic wolfgang Amadeus 569 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: Mozart in seventeen ninety one. 570 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: Then I'm sorry, interrupted, I just want to say. I 571 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,959 Speaker 2: had that in my research too. And there's a great 572 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 2: quote from Old Wolfgang where he speaks more or less 573 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 2: on his deathbed where he had fallen seriously ill and 574 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: he was convinced that he had been poisoned. Says that 575 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: he began to speak of death, and then he said 576 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: that he was setting this requiem, the Mozart requiem, which 577 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 2: he is most famously known for for himself. Quote, I 578 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 2: feel definitely that I will not last much longer. I 579 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 2: am sure that I have been poisoned, and I cannot 580 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: rid myself of this idea. Someone has given me aqua 581 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 2: tafana and calculated the precise time of my death. Please 582 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: Ben go on. 583 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: Only thirty five years old, poor guy, Poor Mazzi and 584 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: Napoleon Bonaparte in eighteen twenty one, Alexander the Great in 585 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty six BCE, allegedly Zachary Taylor in 586 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty though that was later disproven. The list goes 587 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: on and on, folks. You can read some of these 588 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: additional stories nol and I found in full on our 589 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: new community Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians. 590 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 2: We promised we're gonna hop on there and put this 591 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: up there, right Ben, and we commit to it right now. 592 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: Butter twin style, boom done. We just put our fists 593 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: together and lock it in. Yeah, locked it in, and 594 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: we made it made a little poof of magical dust. 595 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: So we are going to head out today. We hope 596 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: that you enjoyed our exploration of the strange story of Arsenic. 597 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: We also, of course, as always, liked to thank our mastermind, 598 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: super producer, Casey Pegrod, who has, believe it or not, 599 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: to this day, still not being convicted of poisoning anyone. 600 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: That's because it hasn't kicked it out. He's been giving 601 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 2: it to us a little bit at a time, a 602 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 2: little bit at a time, and before you know it, 603 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: we're just going to begging him to take care of 604 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: us and nurture us and give us hugs and belly rubs. 605 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: I thought I had a cholera. 606 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: Then we'll be in the palm of his evil hand 607 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: and on our way to our arsenic riddled graves. 608 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 2: Will be riddled. It'll just be trace amounts probably right, Yes. 609 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: Yes, our Arsenic tinged a grade. 610 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: I like it. 611 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: We'd like to thank Alex Williams for writing our theme song. 612 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: Be sure to tune in for our next episode where 613 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 1: we reveal why and how Germany sacrificed sausage for war and. 614 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 2: As a former little German boy in fact, spoke like 615 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: a native and went to German kindergarten, lived among the 616 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: German people until I was six years old. The Germans 617 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 2: do love a good vorced, so I want to hear 618 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: that story about what would cause them to have to 619 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: give up that delectable treat in the name of justice, 620 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 2: And we can't. 621 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: Wait to tell you in our next episode. In the meantime, 622 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: no old folks can find us on Instagram, they can 623 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook, they can find us on Twitter, 624 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: where we are some variation of ridiculous history. 625 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 2: We're still wood shopping the pinterest. Ben and I have 626 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 2: combined our vision boards into a Megavision board involving dolphins 627 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 2: and color swatches and crafts, and. 628 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 1: We're putting out some Viewmaster adaptations. Does anybody else remember view. 629 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 2: Masters that one? Yeah? 630 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: Can you hear the riveting tension as you move from 631 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: frame to frame? 632 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: Pictures of parks mainly Yeah, And. 633 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: There's like one picture of a Reddit meme that's not 634 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: appropriate for work. But again, that's all brainstorming and workshopping is. 635 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 2: If you have some signs questions for. 636 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: A social media site, we should we should move on 637 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: to go ahead and let us know you could write 638 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: tw us directly. 639 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 2: We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com and most importantly, 640 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: we hope that you enjoin us next time for another 641 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 2: episode of ridiculous history. Thanks everyone. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 642 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 643 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.