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Speaker 1: It is really easy to shut down a conversation by

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Speaker 1: saying what you just said is problematic, like end of story,

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Speaker 1: move on. There is no need to explain why something

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Speaker 1: is problematic and actually grapple with it.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Bennett and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Susie Bennacharam.

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Speaker 1: This is in retrospect, where we delve into cultural moments

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Speaker 1: that shaped.

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Speaker 3: Us and that we just can't stop thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Most of the time we'll be talking about the past,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes we just want to talk about what's happening

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Speaker 1: in the present.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So, jess can we talk about the word problematic,

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Speaker 4: which I know is a pet peeve of yours.

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Speaker 1: I do hate the word problematic, okay, Keller, why Okay?

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Speaker 2: So here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: When we started this podcast, we're looking at all of

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Speaker 1: these things in the past, and it is so easy

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Speaker 1: to just write them all off as quote unquote problematic, yes,

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Speaker 1: and then kind of scold each other and move on.

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Speaker 1: And so I actually wanted to create like a buzzer

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Speaker 1: for this podcast where we couldn't use the word problematic,

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Speaker 1: like we actually had to find a descriptive word to use,

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Speaker 1: though I also recognize that I have used it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, actually my favorite part because when you

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Speaker 4: said that, when you were like, we're gonna have a buzzer,

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Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god, I'm going to be

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Speaker 4: the one who messes this up all the time. But actually,

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Speaker 4: I just want to say for the record that you're

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Speaker 4: the one who has said problematic multiple way talent.

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Speaker 2: You're actually telling well, just because now every time.

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Speaker 4: You say it, I'm like, oh my god, she said problematic,

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Speaker 4: but I.

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Speaker 1: Didn't say, Okay, well then we ask our producers to

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Speaker 1: cut it. But anyway, but my point is it has

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Speaker 1: become very in vogue in the culture of late to

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Speaker 1: dismiss things that are i don't know, not politically correct, racist, sexist,

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Speaker 1: sometimes just make you uncomfortable as wait, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean it's pausewibus Okay, I think it's different than what

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Speaker 4: you're I'm going to correct you about your own opinion

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Speaker 4: like a man would. I think it's I mean, obviously

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Speaker 4: we agree that racist and sexist things are bad.

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Speaker 3: That's not what you're objecting to.

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Speaker 4: Really, what you're concerned about is that it just sort

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Speaker 4: of like blends everything together, so something legitimately racist and

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Speaker 4: something yes, kind of like mildly offensive become the same thing.

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Speaker 4: It kind of like flattens the discussion exactly.

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Speaker 1: And it is really easy to shut down a conversation

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Speaker 1: by saying what you just said is problematic, like end

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Speaker 1: of story, move on. There is no need to explain

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Speaker 1: why something is problematic and actually grapple with it, and

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Speaker 1: there's no learning, Like there's no way to say, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, what about that was problematic, let's correct it,

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Speaker 1: let's move on.

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Speaker 2: Or was that really problematic though?

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Speaker 3: Like was it really?

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Speaker 2: Did it really make you uncomfortable?

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Speaker 3: Why?

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Speaker 1: So? It just immediately shuts down conversation in a time

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Speaker 1: when I feel like people are unable to talk to

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Speaker 1: each other.

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Speaker 4: Well, to me, it's like if something offends me, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to tell you it's offensive, it's not. I don't

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Speaker 4: actually use the word that often because it's not a

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Speaker 4: peppeeve of mine, but because it feels like a nothing word.

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Speaker 1: It is nothing word that I mean, it's nothing that

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Speaker 1: I see.

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Speaker 2: Is the problem. That's the way it's problematic is that

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Speaker 2: it is nothing.

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Speaker 1: Where it tells you nothing, it just shuts down whatever

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Speaker 1: you were about to say, and it makes the person

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Speaker 1: who you're accusing of being problematic uncomfortable or the piece

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Speaker 1: of I don't know art or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 1: And this is in the news right now as we're

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Speaker 1: recording this, because there's this big exhibit at the Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: Museum about Pablo Picasso. It's curated Pablo Battery exactly. It's

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Speaker 1: curated by Hannah Gadsby. It's the fiftieth anniversary of his death,

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Speaker 1: and it's all about the ways that Picasa was problematic,

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Speaker 1: YadA a YadA, his treatment of women, and it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to elevate these women artists in the process, but it's

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Speaker 1: basically being panned by critics who are saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's almost doing the opposite of what it's said up well.

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Speaker 4: I think also because it's facial like, the criticism has

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Speaker 4: been that it's not grappling with the real issues. It's

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Speaker 4: just poking fun at it in a way that's actually

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Speaker 4: like diminishing the woman's art that is also part of

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Speaker 4: the exhibit. But I feel like we should take a

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Speaker 4: step back for those who don't know where the word

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Speaker 4: comes from or the context, like what does problematic actually

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Speaker 4: mean to you or do you think means in the zeitgeist?

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Speaker 1: Well, so it's a word that comes from the French actually,

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Speaker 1: and it means something that has a problem, like most

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Speaker 1: basic format. But I think what it has come to

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Speaker 1: mean in recent years is and this is not Merriam Webster,

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Speaker 1: this is not Oxford, this is urban dictionary that I'm

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Speaker 1: about to quote you because.

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Speaker 2: Actually they go.

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Speaker 3: Ridiculary.

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Speaker 1: But it's become this catch all for something you don't

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Speaker 1: like but can't really describe or don't really want to

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Speaker 1: be pressed to describe why. Or here are some of

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Speaker 1: the other definitions. A code word for anything considered to

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Speaker 1: be politically incorrect.

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Speaker 2: I think that's pretty true.

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Speaker 1: Also this one, lol, a catch all insult used to

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Speaker 1: negatively describe something you don't like but can't describe why.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does feel really muddy.

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Speaker 4: Although, by the way, I just want to say that

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Speaker 4: I think politically incorrect is a problematic thing to say.

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Speaker 2: It's also a vague thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's vague.

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Speaker 4: And also I feel like it's the it's become the

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Speaker 4: same thing as woke. It's like lost all meaning, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's just a way that you signal if you are

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Speaker 4: conservative in some way that something is to be dismissed outright. Yes,

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Speaker 4: And so that's why I don't like to use that either.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think using some of these terms has

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Speaker 1: become a way of signaling who you align with, who

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Speaker 1: you may be, who you don't want to align with,

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Speaker 1: and it almost has become more performance than proactive, you know,

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Speaker 1: like we are labeling things problematic and thus shutting down

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Speaker 1: any opportunity to engage with why they might be and

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Speaker 1: what can be done.

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Speaker 4: This kind of reminds me actually, something you said, which is,

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Speaker 4: we were talking about how they change the lyrics in

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Speaker 4: Little Mermaid, which I mean honestly felt silly to me

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Speaker 4: because the original lyrics were not to me or problematic.

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Speaker 4: But you said something interesting which I really thought about,

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Speaker 4: which is, it allows Disney to do this sort of,

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Speaker 4: for lack of a better term, whitewashing of things, but

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Speaker 4: it doesn't solve any real problems in this area at Disney,

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Speaker 4: Like what's happening on Disney's board. Let's focus on that,

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Speaker 4: not on whether or not, like the appropriate amount of

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Speaker 4: consent is built into the word kiss the girl, right, you.

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Speaker 2: Know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: That's the thing too. It's like a lot of this

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Speaker 1: language policing often fails to deal with the actual issue

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Speaker 1: at hand. And is more about these little linguistic ways

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Speaker 1: that we can show that we are woke or whatever.

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Speaker 4: This kind of reminds me actually of what's been going

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Speaker 4: on with Elizabeth Gilbert.

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Speaker 3: Have you been following, oh a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So she's the author of E Prey Love. That's what

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Speaker 4: she's sort of most famous for. Although little known fact

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Speaker 4: about her, she was also the person who wrote the

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Speaker 4: article that became Coyote Ugly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, just in case I didn't want know that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a fun little detail about her. I did

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Speaker 4: an interview with her when I was at ABC years

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Speaker 4: and years ago. She was actually genuinely loved, which I

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Speaker 4: would not say about a lot of celebrities.

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Speaker 2: Just okay.

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Speaker 3: And she recently.

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Speaker 4: Polds her latest book because it's set in Russia, and

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Speaker 4: a bunch of people responded by saying it was insensitive

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Speaker 4: to the war in Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Did they use that word or did they say it

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Speaker 2: was problematic.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if they said problematic, I don't know

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Speaker 4: what language they use, but there was this kind of

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Speaker 4: like outpouring concern, which is kind of weird because the

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Speaker 4: book is set in Russia, but it's about a bunch

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Speaker 4: of people who remove themselves from Russian it's not celebrating

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Speaker 4: like Russia today, which is so but you know, she's

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Speaker 4: actually a pretty sensitive person, so she just indefinitely withdrew

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Speaker 4: the book. But I feel like that's happening with a

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Speaker 4: lot of books, Like there are examples of this thing

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Speaker 4: that happens where before a book is even released, people

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Speaker 4: review vombit on Goodreads. That's been like an ongoing problem,

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Speaker 4: and there's a lot of concern about pre judging art.

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Speaker 4: But I feel like the thing I worry about is,

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Speaker 4: and especially because of what we're thinking about on this podcast,

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Speaker 4: is changing historical art to like sanitize it, because the

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Speaker 4: whole point of looking back on art is that it

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Speaker 4: reflects the time it was in and those times were

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Speaker 4: often sexist and racist, right, I don't think removing those

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Speaker 4: things actually helps people get a real understanding of where

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Speaker 4: we were in society at that time.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's complicated.

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Speaker 1: Is that all of these things are complicated, which is

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Speaker 1: why a word like problematic just dismisses the conversation. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, statues are being removed, and in some

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Speaker 1: cases we are having discussions about why and what occurred

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Speaker 1: at these places and who this character.

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Speaker 3: Is, And to me, that actually feels like a real thing.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't want to go to a school

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Speaker 4: named after like a terrible person or live in a

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Speaker 4: town that has this person.

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Speaker 2: Right, this slave owner.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but I think the different thing is removing language

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Speaker 4: from a book. You know, this has actually happened a

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Speaker 4: long time ago. In twenty eleven, they removed any of

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Speaker 4: the racial slurs in Twain's books. And on the one hand,

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Speaker 4: I really understand that because kids read those books and

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Speaker 4: so it's complicated.

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Speaker 3: But on the other hand, I remember as.

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Speaker 4: A child reading those books and it was like one

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Speaker 4: of the first times I think I encountered the N

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Speaker 4: word and just realizing how prevalent racism must have been

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Speaker 4: in society. Like for me, that was a real learning

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Speaker 4: moment about American history. And so I really worry about

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Speaker 4: that because I think it's better to grapple with it

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Speaker 4: than to pretend like that's not what was going on.

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Speaker 3: And in a weird way, it feels.

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Speaker 4: Like an inverse of what's going on in like Florida

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Speaker 4: and Texas, where they're removing all these books about racism

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Speaker 4: and sexism and transphobia and homophobia, and they don't want

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Speaker 4: kids to know how bad things were in this country,

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Speaker 4: like civil they're removing books about civil rights, right, yes,

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Speaker 4: and so in a weird way, it's a circle that's

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Speaker 4: ending up in the same place.

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Speaker 1: Well, and sometimes the you know, performance or indication or.

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Speaker 2: What was the word you used earlier?

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Speaker 1: Signaling signaling or I was like what word did I

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Speaker 1: is what's fascinating And in some cases, you know, the

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Speaker 1: performance or the signaling almost feels so benign, Like do

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Speaker 1: you remember what happened recently with the rolled doll books?

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Speaker 1: There were basically various passages considered to be quote un

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Speaker 1: problematic and sensitive, and so they brought in a consulting firm,

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Speaker 1: I believe, to change a bunch of the language.

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Speaker 3: And what did they do?

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Speaker 1: They changed language, such as one of the characters is

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Speaker 1: no longer called fat. Instead he is described as enormous, enormous,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Be less insulting.

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Speaker 1: Instead of being called small men umpa lumbas are now

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Speaker 1: small people. Okay, I guess they're not. They don't know

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Speaker 1: their gender identity, but like, do you is this really helpful?

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Speaker 1: Other things? Okay, remember the book The Witches? And of

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Speaker 1: course the movie, and there was a more recent movie

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Speaker 1: that came out, and as you might remember, the witches

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Speaker 1: don't have hair. They're bald underneath their wigs, and they

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Speaker 1: wear these wigs to pretend that they are not witches.

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Speaker 1: But they added this line saying, there are plenty of

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Speaker 1: other reasons why women might wear wigs, and there's certainly

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that.

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Speaker 2: Like, it just feels like there.

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Speaker 1: Are real problems and inequalities in the world, and is

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Speaker 1: going back and changing this minutia in the.

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Speaker 2: Work of Roald Dahal really helping anyone?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think also the thing to me that's

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Speaker 4: interesting about this is that it's less instructive. I think, like,

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Speaker 4: if you're teaching kids and there is something in the

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Speaker 4: book that needs to be discussed, you should discuss it

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Speaker 4: and like actually deal with it, which is which.

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Speaker 1: Is to be fair, like not every school district is doing, but.

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Speaker 4: They are like doing this with some movies. Like a

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Speaker 4: good example of this is like with Gone with the Wind,

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Speaker 4: which obviously is there's a lot of slavery depicted in

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Speaker 4: Gone with the Wind.

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Speaker 3: It's a it's a very problematic movie.

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Speaker 2: But you said why yeah, which I appreciate. I said why.

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Speaker 4: But I think also the way they handled it, instead

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Speaker 4: of actually changing the movie, they've just added, you know,

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Speaker 4: a slate at the beginning that explains to you why

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Speaker 4: it reflects the time might be. And our producer Lauren

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Speaker 4: was saying that she watches Disney movies with her kids,

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Speaker 4: and that that is also something they're doing in front

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Speaker 4: of some of the Disney movies.

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Speaker 3: To me, that feels like.

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Speaker 4: Giving people a warning or prompt to have a discussion

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Speaker 4: with their children or with each other about what they're watching.

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Speaker 4: That feels to me like a better solution than just

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Speaker 4: taking things away and pretending that we don't live in

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Speaker 4: the society we live in, which still is raped in racism, sexism,

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Speaker 4: transphot like it's still steeped in.

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Speaker 3: All these issues. Right.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't there in The Little Mermaid something funny that they

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Speaker 1: added about her voice? I mean, the whole premise of

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Speaker 1: a Little Mermaid, of course, is that she is giving

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Speaker 1: up her voice to find Prince Charming. So arguably that

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Speaker 1: in of itself is quote unquote problematic.

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Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, it's like, the whole point is

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Speaker 4: it's supposed to be empowering, like she's finding her voice, right,

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Speaker 4: So it's.

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Speaker 3: Like a metaphor.

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Speaker 4: But in the movie, I guess in Poor Unfortunate Souls,

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Speaker 4: which is to be clear, the songung by a villain,

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Speaker 4: by Risilla, who's a villain, she says some things about

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Speaker 4: how girl, you know, people prefer for girls to be quiet,

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Speaker 4: and I think they change the lyrics because they were like,

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Speaker 4: we don't want to make girls feel like they shouldn't talk.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, I mean, so, well, one she's a villain,

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Speaker 1: and two that is actually that is what we expect.

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Speaker 4: Of girls, yes, And I mean we shouldn't expect that

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Speaker 4: of girls and girls should be like hey mo, Like

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Speaker 4: I feel like the ideal scenario is that you're watching

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Speaker 4: that with your kid and your kid says to you

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Speaker 4: like is that true, and you correct it, or you're

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Speaker 4: watching with your kids and you say to your kid,

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Speaker 4: listen that is you know, that is bullshit?

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: So but I feel like this kind of this idea

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Speaker 4: of like these warnings kind of makes me think of

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Speaker 4: how you feel about trigger warning.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like we should talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean problematic is kind of like cousin to

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Speaker 1: call out culture and maybe sibling to trigger warnings in

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Speaker 1: a way and we've discussed in putting together this podcast

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Speaker 1: and figuring out how it's going to play, do we

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Speaker 1: want to have trigger warnings at the top. You know, journalistically,

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Speaker 1: I don't really believe in trigger warnings. We don't use

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Speaker 1: them at The New York Times. The world is an

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Speaker 1: extremely triggering player, and you're not going to get a

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Speaker 1: trigger warning when you're out in the world, and you're

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Speaker 1: probably going to be hard pressed to find a safe

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Speaker 1: space too.

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Speaker 4: I think this is like an interesting point because journalistically

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Speaker 4: I totally understand it. Like I think as journalists we're

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Speaker 4: often talking about really difficult things, and I don't really

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Speaker 4: know where to draw the line.

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Speaker 3: Do we put in a trigger warning here? But not here?

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Speaker 4: Like most of what we're talking about involves some kind

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Speaker 4: of thing that you probably don't want to encounter.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the news is hard to watch, yeah today.

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Speaker 5: I mean it's about bad things, right, It's about like

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Speaker 5: war and famine and whatever it's about. But I feel

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Speaker 5: a little more conflicted about the trigger warning thing, only

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Speaker 5: because I feel like, especially on this podcast, we're going

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Speaker 5: to talk about some you know, tough things like sexual

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Speaker 5: assault and things that can feel really overwhelming if you're

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Speaker 5: not expecting it, and I think you go to the

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Speaker 5: Times expecting, you know, a certain kind of but here,

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Speaker 5: like when you're throwing on a podcast, that's where do

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Speaker 5: you throw it on my record?

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Speaker 4: PLA, Yeah, I think you know, it's a little different, right.

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Speaker 4: You want to kind of give people a sense of

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Speaker 4: what they're about to get themselves into. So we've aired

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Speaker 4: on the side of doing that here, but it's definitely

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Speaker 4: been something we've had to discuss because we do want

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Speaker 4: this to feel journalistic, and that is not common in

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Speaker 4: places where.

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Speaker 3: They take journalism very seriously.

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess we don't take ourselves out seriously, so

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Speaker 4: that works out in our favor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we want people to feel comfortable,

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Speaker 1: of course, but it is an interesting point, like where

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Speaker 1: do you how do you decide what is triggering and

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Speaker 1: what is not? Like this language, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: you know, I am a word person. I am a

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Speaker 1: student of words, and I teach words, and so I

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Speaker 1: am highly conscious and cognizant of the way we use language.

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Speaker 1: And so terms like trigger or problematic, or even the

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Speaker 1: way we talk about trauma these days, or toxic. It's

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Speaker 1: like every relationship is toxic. Now if you go on

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Speaker 1: the internet. That is the impression you'll get everything's a

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Speaker 1: red flag or a gray flag or whatever.

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Speaker 3: You did a great piece on this in the Times.

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Speaker 4: There's like this really complicated thing with trauma, which is

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Speaker 4: like if everything is trauma, then you're sort of again.

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Speaker 4: There's like a flattening of there's real there. It feels

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Speaker 4: like there needs to be a different words.

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Speaker 1: Linguistic creep, which is this idea that you know, the

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Speaker 1: meanings of words often change. But I think what can

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Speaker 1: also happen is, like you said, this flattening where it

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Speaker 1: comes to mean everything small things, big things like problematic

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Speaker 1: can span the scale of like something that made you

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Speaker 1: feel mildly uncomfortable personally but may have not made someone

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Speaker 1: else feel that way, to something really egregious. And so

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Speaker 1: are there more specific words we can use to stay

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Speaker 1: And I guess that's really my thing here. It's like

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Speaker 1: can we be specific? Well?

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Speaker 4: And I think that's is what we're trying to do here, right,

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Speaker 4: Like to bring it back to the podcast, I feel

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Speaker 4: like what we're really trying to do here is engage

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Speaker 4: with things that might be considered problematic and to explore

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Speaker 4: them and to sort of look at them in the

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Speaker 4: context of when they were created, not in a scolding way,

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Speaker 4: but to sort of ask ourselves why it was the

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Speaker 4: way it was then and sort of how we.

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Speaker 2: Look about it now, learn from it. I mean, what

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Speaker 2: has changed? What can we learn from it?

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Speaker 1: But what we're not doing is telling you not to

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Speaker 1: engage or not to consume a thing like I don't.

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Speaker 2: I just don't feel like that.

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Speaker 3: Feel like we're telling you to consume things.

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Speaker 2: Well, But it's a whole like art versus artist thing.

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Speaker 1: Like can you if you believe that Pablo Picasso is

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Speaker 1: a misogynist, are you not allowed to consume his art?

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Speaker 1: And that you know that's a complicated question.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's a whole other conversation because I really

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Speaker 4: struggle with that in some cases.

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Speaker 1: But we're gonna punt and say do what you want.

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Speaker 1: We're not here to criticize. We're just here to talk

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Speaker 1: through the issues.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 4: Yes, that makes sense to me. Whether or not it

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Speaker 4: makes sense to the audience, I guess we'll find out.

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Speaker 2: Do you think we're gonna get canceled for this episode?

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Speaker 3: I just live in fear of that, So we'll see

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Speaker 3: what happens.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a right of passage, Right right.

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Speaker 4: Right, This is in Retrospect.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 4: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about

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Speaker 4: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email

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Speaker 4: us at Inretropod at gmail dot com or find us

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Speaker 4: on Instagram at in retropod.

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Speaker 1: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us

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Speaker 1: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you

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Speaker 1: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,

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Speaker 1: which we may or may not delete.

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Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett

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Speaker 4: and at Susi b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books

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Speaker 4: Feminist Fight Club and This Is eighteen.

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Speaker 1: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media.

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Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our

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Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharan Attia is our researcher and

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Speaker 1: associate producer.

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Speaker 4: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our

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Speaker 4: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norville.

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Speaker 3: Our artwork is from Pentagram.

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Speaker 4: Additional editing help from Mary and Mike Cosparelli, sound correction

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Speaker 4: and mastering. By Amanda Rose Smith. We are your hosts,

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Speaker 4: Susie Banecarum.

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Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers.

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Speaker 1: For even more check out in retropod dot com. See

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Speaker 1: you next week.