WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 133 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:02.920 All Zone media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.880 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.400 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.960 Hello, and welcome to It could happen here. This is 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.760 Sharene and today is part one of a two part 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.000 series where we talked to someone who was on the 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:39.080 ground in Palestine in both Lesday and the West Bank. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:41.440 I'm going to say Lesday because that's how you say 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.000 in Arabic, but that means Gaza for those who are unfamiliar. 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:48.839 Ever since Israel began bombing the people of Lesday in 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.839 October of last year, it has been virtually impossible for 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.680 aid to get into Lensday. Both the Israeli government and 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.960 its citizens, acting on their own initiative, have blocked AID convoys, 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.080 destroyed life saving medical and food aid, and harassed people 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.360 for supplying aid. AID workers who even can get into 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:13.360 Leze have been bombed, shot at and killed. And it's 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.360 not just AID that can't get into Lese. It's extraordinarily 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.280 hard for information to even get out. Cell Phone signal 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.800 is scarce, and understandably people there use it to contact 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.000 their families, not foreign journalists, so to get a good 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:31.040 sense of what life is like on the ground. In 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.639 the Dafa, we spoke to Ava, one of the Mutual 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.880 Aid volunteers who, at great risk to her own life, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:39.280 traveled into Lesse to help the people there. 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.600 My name is Ava. I am a nurse and street medic. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.240 I'm Jewish of European ancestry and was raised in Pacific 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:52.400 Northwest on the traditional lands of the Chinook, Tualitan and 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.800 Clacamus and many other First nations what is commonly called 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:56.520 Portland organ. 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:59.720 Ava was able to send us some voice notes to 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.480 scribe having her day to day back in April. She 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:06.960 told us what she saw, what she experienced, what she heard. Understandably, 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.560 there's some background noise in some of this audio, but 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.160 I personally think it helps ground us in the moment 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:13.359 that she's experiencing. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.760 So here I am the morning of Friday, April nineteenth. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.640 This is the start of my second day in Laza. 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:27.519 I spent a full day yesterday at a Najadre hospital 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:32.160 in the emergency department, getting introduced to the staff there, 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:37.280 the work, the equipment, the patterns of illness and injury, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:44.000 the shortages, struggles, the pain, the happiness was really quite 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.440 beautiful and hard and a mashup of everything I've experienced 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.240 in occupation, things I've experienced as a new nurse to 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.920 a floor, and things I haven't experienced before, which is 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.840 being in a site of an active war zone and 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:06.080 genocide on The Jahre hospital is located very close to 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.120 the Rafa border crossing. It's also, I guess, one of 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:16.200 the areas more heavily impacted by violence right now in Rapha, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.360 which is still much less so than areas to the 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.600 north like hon Yunis, et cetera. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.320 We asked Ava to explain the situation in the Dapha 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.800 at the time of this recording and where she was 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.360 within it. The following conversation with Ava took place on 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:31.320 April twenty ninth. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.840 I mean, I will first locate myself in Pa, which 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.520 is the only part of Plaza that I have ever seen, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.480 and I have only been in the Gaza during the 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:44.400 last two weeks. 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:46.080 I've been Palestine twice. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.720 This is my first time in this area, and I 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.880 haven't seen Adinda Haraza. I haven't seen a honeyness. I 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.640 haven't seen the destruction up there. And I think that 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.640 that is from the people who I've met who are 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.480 roughie cheese, from those areas, healthcare workers, members of the public. 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:09.920 There's really oh yeah, there's just a moto. Sorry. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.200 There's a lot of rumblings and things that happened periodically, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.160 and a lot of them are explosions that I think 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.760 is just a motor But yeah, I mean it's really 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:24.679 interesting because I arrived at a moment when food stuffs 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:27.400 had just started to cross in a little bit more regularly, 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.640 and I was told that basically in the week before, 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.640 like street markets had reoccurred, which hadn't been a thing 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:36.120 for months. 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:38.360 And that's like a big part of my experience in 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:39.000 the West Bank. 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.240 And so it was really great to see people, even 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.400 if it was just like a little bit of food 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:47.200 selling food on the street, starting to see bread being 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.720 baked and distributed, seeing people out and about was exciting. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.320 There is rampant signs of destruction everywhere. There are lots 0:04:56.360 --> 0:05:00.640 of standing buildings, but there are lots of piles of 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:05.560 rubble in streets the sites of former buildings. People have 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:09.320 in a remarkable job clearing space, but there's sense of 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.440 destruction everywhere, and I think in some ways the most 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.000 painful sites are where buildings aren't completely destroyed and you 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:22.840 can see into people's bedrooms, kitchens, bathrooms, things like that, 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.919 see artwork still hanging, seek fragments of their homes and lives. 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.760 There are tent cities everywhere. I am currently speaking to 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:35.200 from within a house that is one of the houses 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.080 that are rented by NGOs in the area from generally 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:44.520 people who have managed to escape that's h and who 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.120 are renting their homes for a bit of income and 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:51.560 to decrease the likelihood their house will be bombed. And 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.839 in this particular house, we're in the neighborhood of Telsutan, 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.120 and there are tent cities all around us. So it's 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.839 one of those weird situations of staying in a somewhat 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:07.520 palatial home where there are people sleeping in very rudimentary 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:13.159 tents and structures, sometimes completely uncovered in one hundred plus 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.760 degree weather. I think the highest temperatures we've seen a 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:17.200 couple of days where it was about four to eight 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.799 degrees center grade, which is about one oh seven sarrenheit. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:26.320 There are a lot of sick people, a lot of 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:27.200 struggling people. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.240 Longtime listeners of the podcast will remember our interview with 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.479 toddic Lobani, one of the inventors of the three D 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.919 printed tourniquet, as well as the founder of Glia, a 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.000 medical aid charity, Ava who was also a medical professional, 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:43.240 is working with them. 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.080 I've been working with an organization called Glia that works 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:54.320 with primary care clinics and with Martrinity and like natal clinics, 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.800 and has also been starting to work with at least 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.680 one emergency department. And I've been working at the hospital 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.040 on the new shod, which is used to basically be a 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:10.040 community tertiary hospital with basically an urgent care clinic, that 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:15.840 has basically become the only remaining general public emergency department 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.920 in the RAA. There are other there's like an eternity 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.600 emergency department, hospital department, there's an emergency department run by 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:24.560 MSF and like these other ones, but like this is 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.320 the only like general public one. And I've been there 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.760 just you know, for two weeks most every day, it's 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.200 a day off. When I was sick and took off 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.200 the day today to see some different parts of some 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:37.680 other clinics, which is really good comparison. 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.920 We asked Ava what kind of injuries she sees and 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.920 what the medical situation is like in LA But. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.720 I will say that it's while the variety of you know, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.400 injuries and illnesses that you'll see in that space. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:53.120 That is true of any emergency department. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.600 But depending on the hours I have foundering the day, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:01.080 most of the illnesses and injuries are more usual except 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.920 exacerbated by the lack of resources, lack of primary character 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:10.640 resources celebated by the lack of medications, exacerbated by the 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:18.559 lack of clean water and sanitation. Occasionally injuries like from 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:24.320 bombings or shootings at night when I have not been there. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:29.160 I have heard of many missile strikes wiping out entire families, 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.040 large numbers of people murdered. I have seen, you know, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.280 several people killed in that way come to the emergency department, 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.640 but in no way representative of what's been happening, And 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.520 it's been a vile account, better these weeks than it 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.480 has been before. Though the number of missile strikes and 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.800 things are kind of increasing. There has been word given 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.559 that there is likely going to be evacuation orders starting 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.520 in the next in this next few days to a 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.760 week from the Israelis, but no signs of and in 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:04.160 me it's inclusion that said, we don't know. Most people 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.600 are pretty hopeful of that that I've talked to, that 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.760 a ceasefire will be reached, although it's unclear what that 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:14.440 would mean. But I can say from my time working 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.199 in these hospitals that and just being in the community 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.120 that like most people are hanging on by a thread, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:25.199 whether they have just gotten something very loosely resembling a 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.600 hint of stability, of like having a place where they 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:32.000 are having access to food. There are children playing, there 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.800 are you know, some some of the signs of life 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.440 that I'm used to seeing in Palestine. There are emergency 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:43.920 departments that are somewhat functional. They're like my colleagues working 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.720 at a NICU where it's always full, but they are 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.280 able to care for the babies that are there, even 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:50.880 not as well as they would like to, but like 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.720 they are able to if this population is displaced again, 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.760 which is what the Israelis are suggesting in this case 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.120 towards hon units, which they've leveled, and they are trying 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.200 to get the international community to set up tense cities 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.320 there that will kill a lot of people, that will 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.080 tear apart a lot of what little people had left. 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:16.040 So very very difficult in that way. That said, it's 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:20.559 also more alive than I expected. There's more signs of 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:26.720 daily life, of children playing, of people making and serving 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.400 coffee in the street, of a couple of bakeries are producing, 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.960 you know, all those pieces like flawfel sands like those 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.400 things exist. A cost of food or atrocious We don't 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.920 you know, buy food here, but I'm aware of some 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.960 of the prices and they are much higher than they 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.880 would be in the West Bank, where food is you know, 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:46.960 not on Embarco. 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.679 For those who aren't super familiar, the West Bank refers 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.880 to the West Bank of Jordan. It stretches across the 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.599 eastern border of Israel, along the west banks of the 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.840 Jordan River and most of the Dead Sea. It was 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.439 designated as its own region when Israel established itself and 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.720 ethnically cleansed Palestine in nineteen forty eight, but it has 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:10.720 been eaten away to a massive amount in nineteen sixty seven. 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.520 It was occupied during the Six Day War, and during 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:17.440 the nineteen seventies and eighties, Israel began establishing settlements there, 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:21.480 which was and is still illegal under international law, and 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.160 even with protests from the international community, Israel continues still 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.400 today to establish settlements on Palestinian land. The first major 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:35.559 Arab uprising aka the First Intifada, also referred to as 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.160 the Stone Intifada, began in nineteen eighty seven in the 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:42.240 Gaza Strip and spread to the West Bank. It ended 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:44.760 in nineteen ninety three with the signing of the First 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:49.920 Oslo Accords. The Second Intifada, also known as the Alusa Antifada, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.640 was another major Arab uprising by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation. 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.160 During the twenty tens, the Fatah dominated Palestinian authority worked 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.640 toward established itself as an independent government in the urban 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.800 Palestinian areas of the West Bank. At the same time, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:10.720 Israel expanded its settlement activity in the territory. Tutta, formerly 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.120 the Palestinian National Liberation Movement, is a Palestinian nationalist and 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.600 social democratic political party. It is the largest faction of 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.200 the confederated multi party Palestine Liberation organization and the second 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.640 largest party in the Palestinian Legislative Council. PUTTA has been 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.000 closely identified with the leadership of its founder and chairman, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.080 Yasser Arafat, who was elected chairman of the PLO in 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.400 Cairo in February nineteen sixty nine until his death in 0:12:38.400 --> 0:13:00.000 two thousand and four. In May twenty twenty one, Palestine 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.319 families in Schechtradra, a neighborhood and occupied East Jerusalem, began 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.720 protesting against Israel's plan to forcibly evict them from their 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.320 homes to make way for Jewish settlers. Many of the 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.880 families were refugees who had settled in Schechtradra after being 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.160 forcibly displaced around the time of Israel's establishment as a 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.880 state in nineteen forty eight. Since Israel occupied East Jerusalem 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.360 and the rest of the West Bank in nineteen sixty seven, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:30.120 Palestinians and Schektradra had been continuously targeted by Israeli authorities, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:35.200 who used discriminatory laws to systematically dispossess Palestinians of their 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.240 land and homes for the benefit of Jewish Israelis. The 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:42.000 events of May twenty twenty one were emblematic of the 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:47.319 oppression which Palestinians have faced every day for decades. The discrimination, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.960 the dispossession, and the repression of descent, the killings and injuries. 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.240 They are all a part of a system which is 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.240 designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians. 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.160 This is apartheid, which is, as you should know, prohibited 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.880 an international law. In twenty twenty one, Amnesty International reported 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.400 that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:14.839 Palestinians across all areas under its control in Israel and 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:19.640 the occupied Palestinian territories, and against Palestinian refugees in order 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.560 to benefit Israelis laws, policies, and practices which are intended 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.640 to maintain a violent system of control over Palestinians have 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:33.880 left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.120 a constant state of fear and insecurity, with no freedom 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:42.080 of movement or freedom's period. And then there's Israel's apartheid Wall, 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.840 which began as a fence along the border between the 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.960 West Bank and what is called Israel. It was first 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:52.160 constructed by Israel in nineteen seventy one as a security barrier, 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.760 and it has been rebuilt and upgraded since it was 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.040 constructed by Israel to control the movement of the Palestinian 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.640 population as well as goods between the Gaza Strip and Israel. 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.520 So that's some history on the West Bank and just 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.200 for some context. Twenty twenty three was the deadliest year 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.960 for Palestinians since the United Nations Office for the Coordination 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:19.040 of Humanitarian Affairs AOCHA began recording casualties in two thousand 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:23.520 and five. Since the Gaza genocide began, Israel has stepped 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.400 up military raids in the West Bank, where violence had 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:30.680 already been surging for over a year. UN records show 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.480 that Israeli forces or settlers have killed hundreds of Palestinians 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:38.080 in the West Bank since October seventh. In twenty twenty three, 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.560 at least five hundred and seven Palestinians were killed, including 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.760 at least eighty one children. Between October seventh and December 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.160 thirty one, twenty twenty three, two hundred and ninety nine 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.200 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank, marking a fifty 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:55.480 percent increase compared to the first nine months of the year. 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.320 According to the World Health Organization, since October seventh, four 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.960 hundred and seventy four Palestinians, including one hundred and sixteen children, 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:09.200 have been killed in the West Bank, including occupied East Jerusalem, 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.800 and about five thousand were injured. There are many days 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.920 where Israeli forces killed Palestinians, but I'm going to refer 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:17.880 to a couple just to give you a general idea 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.320 of the violence the Palestinians experience. On March twenty first, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.880 there was a day when Israeli forces killed three Palestinians 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.120 and separate incidents in the occupied West Bank, resulting in 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.240 ten Palestinians killed in the territory over a twenty four 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.600 hour period. This was reported by the Palestinian news agency WUFFA. 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.720 On April twentieth, Israeli forces killed fourteen Palestinians during a 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.160 raid in the occupied West Bank, including an ambulance driver 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.520 who was killed as he went to pick up wounded 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.200 Palestinians from a separate attack by violent Israeli settlers. Erica 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:58.200 Guavera Rosas, Amnesty International's director of Global Research, Advocacy and Policy. 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.160 Said under the cover of the l Lentist bombardment and 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:06.200 atrosty crimes in Gaza, Israeli forces have unleashed unlawful lethal 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:10.360 force against Palestinians and the occupied West Bank, carrying out 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.119 unlawful killings and displaying a chilling disregard for Palestinian lives. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.080 These unlawful killings are in blatant violation of international human 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.119 rights law and are committed with impunity in the context 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:26.000 of maintaining Israel's institutionalized regime, the systematic oppression and domination 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:27.320 over Palestinians. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.200 Because Ava has experience in both cluds in the West Bank, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.080 I wanted to ask what she witnessed while in the 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.080 West Bank. Here's Ava telling us about her experience. 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.040 Specifically, I was working with the International Solidarity Movement, which 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.399 is the same group I worked with when I was 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.280 in Palestine twelve years ago. And that's basically exactly what 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.320 it sounds like. It's a vaguely kiss androsocialist and our 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:05.720 Communists informed assembly of most the internationals with this s 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:12.159 mattering of Palestinians and a couple Israeli activists. I was 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.480 in the West Bank this round from the end of 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:20.560 January until I came to Gaza, which was halfway through April, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.280 so basically two and a half months. Most people who 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.639 volunteer there, it's anywhere from like two or three weeks 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.680 to two or three months. Because of tourist visa lasts 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.000 that long, and that's usually the most you can expect. 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.280 During the time I was there, ism and other solidarity 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.359 organizations got to be a topic of much discussion in 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.119 the Israelikan essets, as they got very excited about the 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.879 dangerous anarchists in the South. There's a lot of interesting 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:50.600 converisons between the West Bank and Gaza. 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.080 Palestinian people are divided by the State of Israel into 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:58.000 two areas, with two separate governments and two different experiences 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.080 of occupation. We asked a what people in the cludsday 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.440 had to say about the situation for those living in 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.360 the West Bank, where settler colonialism spreads every single day. 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.800 Maybe I'll start by saying, when I rolled into Gaza 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.639 and met members from the Health of Ministry and like 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.600 they're like, oh, you speak in Arabic or do you 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.160 learn Arabic? And I was like in the West Bank 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:19.359 and they're like, oh, it's so hard there, and I 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.840 was like really and they're like yeah, you know, I 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.359 mean obviously like the war, which is what they call 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:26.800 the genocide you usually hear. 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.480 Too has been very hard. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.200 But like before that, like they have to live under 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.920 a different version of occupation or direct version of occupation 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.960 every day. And I thought that that just like touched 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.800 something intense in me and like was really like a 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.200 big I don't know, it just affected me a lot. 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.159 But as far as like comparisons, there are parts of 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.119 the West Bank that feel independent, that you feel like, oh, 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.240 I'm in an area that is, you know, where ostensibly 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.440 are not supposed to see Israelis, and if they are there, 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.600 they're like my friend who just lives in you know, 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:02.639 lives with her husband who's Palestinian, and they hang out 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:07.159 there and are fine most of the time. But a 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:08.879 lot of these areas that I spent al most of 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.280 my time are areas where there's more direct contact constantly 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:18.600 between settlers, soldiers and the Palestinian community who are often 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:23.880 in those areas like we are in rural and it's 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.560 like a very different scale of genocide. I often talk 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.800 about that as like a silver genocide, and this is 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:31.480 a faster genocide here in Gussa. 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.480 But it's like no less horrible. 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.680 It ends up being like a person, a person and 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:41.960 like parcel of land, a parcel of land. Palestinian heard 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.840 of sheep, is Raeli heard of sheep, herd of sheep, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.080 and it sounds like very parallel, except that the Palestinians 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.080 have been shepherding there for generations or hundreds of years. 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.040 And the settlers there, some of them many most of 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.680 them are like teenagers who are dropouts and like get 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.199 in trouble all the time, and then they're brought up 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.280 there as community service. And some of them know how 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.000 to shoprund and some of them don't, but they use 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.520 it as an opportunity to graze their animals on like 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:08.200 Palasinian wheat fields. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.600 Settler colonialism isn't just a vague concept or a way 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:15.800 of looking at the past in Palestine. It's something that 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:21.200 happens almost every single day. The violent displacement of Palestinian people, 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.440 which began with the Nekba, has never really stopped, and 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.400 the families in the West Bank experience their own nekbas 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.840 every time their land is stolen. That's why volunteers like 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:34.280 Ava go there to be in solidarity with the Palestinian people. 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.520 We asked Ava what the process of appropriation looks like 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:38.640 on the ground. 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:43.920 They stand somewhere, get confrontational with the Palestinians, with the 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:49.080 international and Israeli solidarity activists. They get the police to 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.119 and soldiers who arrest people and harass people. They occasionally 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:58.280 fire at and sometimes kill or somearely injure Palestinians, less 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:05.000 commonly at Jena or it was really octivists after the 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.520 seventh all across the West Bank. Initially a lot of 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.320 the settlers, as I understand I responded by kind of 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:15.040 clamping down security concerns, and then very quickly turned it 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:18.200 into an opportunity for attack and turned up at villages 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.920 like the village of Zenuta and just were like which 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:22.800 had like got about one hundred families, and was like, 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:25.960 you don't leave, We're going to kill you all. And 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.680 so people left and it was a credible threat, and 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.840 they did kill a lot of people. I think that's 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.480 the largest village I've heard of recently. They disappeared other places. 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:38.320 People ran away and their homes were destroyed, their animals 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.960 were taken. People come back and their cars get torched. 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:48.520 They get arrested on no charges and held for longer 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.720 than ever, and in many cases or torture to death. 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:54.879 I have a friend and comrade that I organized up 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.639 a little bit who was in Janine at the start 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:03.200 right after October seventh, and she witnessed truly horrific you know, 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:07.560 targeted killings by drone strikes and other things, and basically 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:12.359 fled south so she would be okay and physically. So 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.880 that's some of what has happened. Most of the villages 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:20.360 that historically have had the like nonviolent weekly protests, which 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:22.920 a lot of people who in the past and volunteered, 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:26.639 like as you know internationals will have experience with, and 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:28.639 like there's a lot of the popular images of like 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:33.320 youth in Kafia's drawing stones at some of those sites. 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:38.760 Since October seventh, almost all of the villages stopped as 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:40.400 far as I know, because it was too dangerous. 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:42.800 When I arrived, I was told all of the villages 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:43.399 had stopped. 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:45.520 But then we found out part way that there was 0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.200 a village that was having protests kofor Katum in the 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.400 northern half of the West Bank, and it turns out 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:53.959 when I went there, they'd never stopped. 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:56.520 They protested each week. 0:23:56.560 --> 0:23:59.080 They did scale back with their goals were because whereas 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:01.359 in the past they had been many of them had 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:06.160 been shot with live ammunition like twenty two caliber rifles. 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:10.120 Since the seventh it basically became all lave of ammunition, 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.160 and only by the grace of God or luck were 0:24:14.200 --> 0:24:17.320 none of them murtyered in that time because the soldiers 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.920 were not shooting at ankles as is the conventional guidance. 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:24.159 I saw videos of them shooting into buildings, into homes, 0:24:24.160 --> 0:24:26.280 shooting at head height, things like that, And like the 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:27.960 week before I went, the guy was shot in the 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:31.480 face and he only survived because it deflected so down 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:36.120 through his johns did it into his skull. So they've 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:39.000 experienced a lot of severe oppression there. There's been hundreds 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.720 killed in the West Bank just since October seventh. There 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:46.119 is active fighting in parts of the north of like 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:49.760 kind of Jinine and I think until Karen and some 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:55.359 other places between some armed resistance and Asurai soldiers. But 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:59.000 it's definitely not at the same scale as in Lazza, 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.720 and there aren't like active bombs falling on people. But 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:05.320 it's you know, still murderous. It's still driving people out, 0:25:05.520 --> 0:25:09.320 it's still squeezing people to they either lash out or leave. 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:12.600 I mean, it's it honestly sounds like it just a 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:15.760 repeat in some way of the Nekaba, you know, like 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.760 that's just what happened. It is a little maybe a 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:22.320 little slower, like you said, like a slower genocide, right, yeah, 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:24.920 it never really stopped. It's been a slow genocide for 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:29.600 like seventy six years. In addition to ongoing colonization, the 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:32.879 economic conditions in the West Bank make life hard for 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:35.600 people there. But this does not stop people in the 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:38.479 West Bank from being in solidarity with the people of Ze. 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:41.080 When I was in the West Bank, I will also say, like, 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:43.800 and I've shared this with many people here on Gaza, 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.040 like I would be in a tiny one bedroom house 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:51.080 who are very poor. Like people's incomes disappeared after the 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:53.400 Seventh That's another thing. Like a lot of people made 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:57.399 their money by traveling to cities to work, by working 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:00.719 at settlements, things like that. After the seventh roads were 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:04.399 shut down, people couldn't move. Palestinian workers were not allowed 0:26:04.520 --> 0:26:07.800 in settlements, not allowed to cross into forty eight. So 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:10.359 everybody's struggling. But like people are spending twenty four to 0:26:10.440 --> 0:26:14.320 seven with like Algerzeerra or like other Palestinian or Palestinian 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:16.720 coverage of what's happening in Gaza, like people are right 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:20.240 there when Ramadan started, I was there doing the of 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:23.399 the Ramadan, Like people are like, I'm so looking forward 0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:26.560 to feeling hunger along with Gaza, and like that was 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:32.080 another aspect of hearing from the first Gasms crossing into Gaza, 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:34.760 like saying like, oh, it's so hard over there. We're 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:37.560 with them, Like I think there's a lot of attempts 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:45.520 from the Israelis, from liberal Zionists in the US, from 0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:48.440 the state and everything to be like good Palestinian, bad Palestinian, 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:51.479 and like all the Palestinians are, you know, like they 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:55.000 might not all agree politically, Like there's many different positions 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:57.520 on everything, just as there are many positions and everything 0:26:57.560 --> 0:26:59.960 in every community. There's a lot of them that they 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:02.480 between them. And that was another reason I was really 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:04.359 excited to come from the West Bank and bring like 0:27:04.440 --> 0:27:07.360 some olive oil and other gifts on behalf of the community, 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:10.280 because people need to know how much they are loved 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:13.320 and thought of. On the other side, I find it's 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.320 sad and beautiful how united of a people are the 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:21.880 Palestinians across the tremendous distance of a and also incredibly 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.760 short distance of apartheid and occupation that they can't see 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:27.639 each other or visit each other, but they feel for 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:29.800 each other and are with each other in their hearts 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:31.800 and just kind ofrects me a little bit. 0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:33.600 It's also nice to be near the sea. 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:36.159 I haven't yet seen the sea, but my friend was 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:39.159 here very close and could see it from their house. 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:41.879 I just feel being close to the sea and like 0:27:42.000 --> 0:27:45.760 see the sunsets, and that's so incredibly beautiful and sad 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:48.720 too because most Palestinians don't get to see the sea. 0:27:50.160 --> 0:27:52.120 And that's going to be the end of part one. 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:55.639 In part two, Ava tells us what the process was 0:27:55.800 --> 0:27:58.720 like traveling from the West Bank until Les, and she 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.159 details her experience being on the ground to the So 0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:05.720 please tune in to tomorrow's episode to hear more from Ava. 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:08.160 Until then, Rerepalace Done. 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:16.560 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.439 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:21.720 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:25.160 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.960 We're back for part two in our conversation with Ava. 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:36.920 When we left off, Ava was describing her experience in 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:39.320 the West Bank. I wanted to know what it was 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:43.360 like traveling into lensday Drapha, in particular from the West Bank. 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:46.520 So now we are going to jump back into that conversation. 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.440 What was that process of even entering what like from 0:28:50.480 --> 0:28:55.960 the West Bank? So there is no direct way for 0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:56.520 the west thing. 0:28:56.960 --> 0:29:00.760 I mean, it's it's hilarious because, like you know, like 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:03.840 the conventional wisdom is like, oh, the entire land of 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:06.480 Palestine is like smaller in New Jersey, but you don't 0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:08.880 really notice it until like I am in Yaffa, I'm 0:29:08.880 --> 0:29:13.560 in Tel Aviv, I am like thirty kilometers or something 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:15.840 from Gaza. I am in the West Bank. I am 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:18.840 so close, but you have to go a long way, 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:22.760 over a long through a lot of like logistical hurdles 0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:24.720 together just kind of like any kind of travel in 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:28.400 the West Bank or any kind of occupied space. But 0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:33.360 basically my journey looked like leaving Masafriata, the area villages 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:36.920 in the south Huborn Hills or southern West Bank, going 0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:43.720 north to from Allah, crossing into Koudes and then hanging 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:45.560 out and then taking and I got to be in 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:48.800 the Goods for Eed, which was amazing to see that, 0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:53.440 but then hopping on a bus and riding all the 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:55.560 way down to a lot like a kind of a 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:58.600 horrible tourist town at the southern end of forty eight, 0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:02.920 then cut a bus into Tapa on the Egyptian side 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:07.760 in Sinai. Crossing took forever, so I spent basically twelve 0:30:07.800 --> 0:30:11.680 hours overnight circuling the Sinai, which wasn't my original pan, 0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:13.800 but it's what happened. And then I went to Cairo, 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.400 and I spent some time in Cairo. I got there 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:19.440 a little bit early. Our entry was delayed, so I 0:30:19.600 --> 0:30:22.120 ended up having some basic chirot to do compass, which 0:30:22.200 --> 0:30:24.840 was fine and good, and then went in with a 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:27.920 UN convoy, which is really the only way that you 0:30:27.960 --> 0:30:32.000 can go in crossing the northern Sinai. There's a lot 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.920 of checks with Egyptian officials without then you get to 0:30:35.960 --> 0:30:39.480 the border, go through a bunch of checks with Egyptian officials, 0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:43.240 then you cross over have a comparatively fewer but still 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:47.600 plenty checks with Gazan officials. I also almost cried like 0:30:47.760 --> 0:30:51.280 looking at a Palestinian seal crossing in, because I was 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:55.320 like getting a stamp in my passport the Palestinian authority 0:30:55.560 --> 0:30:59.320 in Gaza, because I was like, I've never like it's 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:04.040 always every court of entry into Palestine is otherwise controlled 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:06.720 by the Israelis. This is like the only one that 0:31:06.880 --> 0:31:11.640 is under Palestinian control. Even if it's like Palestinian control 0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:14.760 in a giant open air prison, it's like still something 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:19.680 under And then we're inside and I have been working 0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:24.800 and you know, driving and in cars and movement is 0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:30.360 pretty limited for security reasons. The murdering of the World 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:33.000 Central Kitchen workers that happened not long before I came, 0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:37.000 when like basically a targeted drones strike took out three 0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:41.520 vehicles and six four seven people. Still very unclear reasons, 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:45.000 but it's not an accident, maybe not directed from the top, 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:48.400 but very scary. So there's a lot of controlled movements, 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.320 so basically you have to kind of have a preapproved 0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:52.840 plan for where you're going to go and what you're 0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:55.880 going to do when you're going to move. But yeah, 0:31:55.960 --> 0:31:58.160 there's a lot of there's for a number of international 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:02.120 aid workers here right now, and I'm really privileged to 0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:06.120 work with mostly Palestinian ones, but a few good internationals too. 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:09.920 I wanted to get Avia's perspective about social media and 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:13.600 the actions of college protesters, how much coverage of the 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:16.040 protests actually gets to Palestinians. 0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:20.840 I was watching coverage with one of the doctors here 0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:27.320 of campus protests and other international protests just this afternoon. 0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:31.640 People are talking about it. People are talking about global 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:35.600 resistance and support. I don't know how representative that is 0:32:36.040 --> 0:32:38.880 outside of that space. Like I interact with a lot 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:43.000 of members of the public who are not healthcare workers, 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.440 but most of my conversations are with healthcare workers. I 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:48.560 do speak a little bit of Arabic, but not at 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.680 like a deep conversational level, like enough to do some 0:32:51.800 --> 0:32:55.600 basic assessments and pleasantries and you know, meet my needs. 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.680 A lot of people are aware and are feeling hopeful 0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:02.920 in this mode moment with the negotiations, in part because 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:09.400 of the international pressure. It's interesting a lot. I feel 0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:11.800 like there's a lot more hopefulness in Gaza than I've 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:14.720 experienced just talking with people that I experienced in the 0:33:14.760 --> 0:33:17.800 West Bank, and I think that partly that might be 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:20.960 the moment, but also I think it's partly sometimes in 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:22.760 the fact they noticed in the West Bank too, where 0:33:22.760 --> 0:33:23.120 it's like. 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:27.680 It's horrible and horrifying and terrifying. 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:29.960 To be in the eye of the storm or to 0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:32.920 be in the storm, but it's like you're in it 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:36.840 and you don't have to imagine it elsewhere, if that 0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:40.720 makes sense. When that all started, like I tried to 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:43.640 plug in as best as I could with you know, 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:47.760 protest movements around the States, and as I'm sure a 0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:49.960 lot of people with maybe you and a lot of 0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:52.520 people might be listening, could like resonate with. It felt 0:33:52.680 --> 0:33:55.520 very like exciting to have that much motivation or that 0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:59.680 many people caring about Palestine, but also really inadequate and 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:02.280 really be hopeless, just feel like you're throwing yourself against 0:34:02.320 --> 0:34:06.200 a wall and nothing's going to change, and feels really hopeless. 0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:09.759 And in the West Bank I had Palestinian activists say 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.720 I think this has proven that no protest movements do anything, 0:34:13.640 --> 0:34:16.440 but like in this moment and in this location, I 0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.520 don't hear that, and I don't believe that that's the case. 0:34:19.760 --> 0:34:22.759 I think that her test movements have a limited capacity 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:26.719 to change those people in the policies and just those 0:34:26.719 --> 0:34:31.719 people in power that said it's so little, so late 0:34:32.600 --> 0:34:34.520 as far as like any kind of political change in 0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.760 the West and in the US and in Europe, like today, 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:41.640 I visited a cemetery that was built by like a 0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:46.040 guy and his volunteers he worked with since October seventh, 0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.320 and like visited the site of the remains of his family. 0:34:50.280 --> 0:34:53.840 What remains were covered and of like another person's remains 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:58.400 of her family, and just like a field of some 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.040 quality and a lot of just like pavers stones just 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:05.320 thrown down with names written on them in the sand, 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:09.600 surrounded by tent encampments, with children fighting to water the 0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:13.160 plants in order to get a couple of shekels their nation. 0:35:13.440 --> 0:35:17.880 Like it also really really sucks, and the fact that 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:21.400 it's gotten to this point is unimaginably horrific. 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:25.480 Ava had been on the ground and helping in what 0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:29.160 little remains of Lesa's hospitals. This is what she had 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:30.360 to say about that experience. 0:35:31.440 --> 0:35:32.520 There is no space. 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:36.200 Most of the sickest and most seriously injured patients are 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:38.279 treated on the floor because there's no space, and they 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:44.400 were brought in screaming, bleeding, dying or dead. First few days, 0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:48.160 I saw several people die on the floor, you know, 0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:52.280 saw several bodies on the floor. It's incredibly hard space. 0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.120 Most of the difficulty that I have seen, like I 0:35:56.200 --> 0:36:01.480 said before, has not been direct violence from the genocide, 0:36:01.760 --> 0:36:06.920 such as a missile falling, such as shrapnels, such as conclastiforce, 0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:10.040 such as gunshots. I've seen all of those, but that 0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:11.799 has not been the majority of what I have seen. 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:15.600 The majority of what I have seen is children who 0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:19.440 do not have access to their anti seazure medications. So 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.359 the child comes in in what's called status apolypticus, which 0:36:23.440 --> 0:36:26.320 is a seizure that lasts longer than thirty minutes, and 0:36:26.360 --> 0:36:28.200 it's gotten to a point where it's self reinforcing and 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:31.520 it can't be stopped easily, and often it can be 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:36.000 easily fatal, even with critical care resources. I have seen 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:39.600 children who whose parents had to sitch to a different 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:43.439 form of a medication and with a different dosing and things, 0:36:43.480 --> 0:36:47.200 and that got confusing because they were either like find 0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:49.759 someone who's bringing in medication, or like find it from 0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:52.640 another place and it's not written in Arabic and it's 0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:55.479 not clear, and so they end up getting a wrong dose. 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.440 It's like that on the shot is now the only 0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:04.680 provider of dialysis in there. There's another hospital that provides, 0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:09.439 but everywhere is so overly, there's way too many people 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:12.560 drawing on those resources that they're having to run people 0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:16.360 shorter periods of time, more spread out schedule, so people 0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:22.080 get critically sick. It's like a lack of clean water 0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:28.720 because of destruction of infrastructure, because of mass displacement, because 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:32.960 of a extended period where in the Israelis were uh 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:38.000 and the Egyptians were preventing flow of clean water resources 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:44.120 into Gaza. So children, adults are getting hepatitis, a turning 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:50.680 yellow with jaundice, having persisting diarrhea, dehydration, incredibly high rates 0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:55.880 of septic shock, and severe systemic infection due to all. 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:57.320 Kinds of untreated conditions. 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:02.319 Because it's so much work and so dangerous for people 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:06.359 to access care, let alone just live that, people put 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:10.440 things off till they're literally dying. It's not a stable situation, 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.239 but it's like a tenuously like I said, hanging on 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:15.320 by a thread situation. 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:19.120 And again I just I am. 0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:21.680 I am terrified of what will happen if then everybody 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.200 has to relocate again, because it's going to be like 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:27.759 people not going back to square one, It'll be going 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:32.080 you know, backward in the whole new depths of pain 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:34.480 and suffering because like if they're pushed out of Raa 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:38.160 to han Uness, it'll be too an already devastated city 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.520 with now tent cities and people trying to. 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:44.239 Rebuild a hospital where there is no water infrastructure. 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.760 Despite the terrible suffering, Ava was able to find time 0:38:48.920 --> 0:38:51.600 to connect with her faith and her heritage while she 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:52.319 was in las. 0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.680 I am also Jewish. That is not the reason I 0:38:55.760 --> 0:38:58.120 am here, but it is not not a reason that 0:38:58.239 --> 0:39:02.800 I am here. And during like the first few months 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:06.440 since the seventh of October, Jews took up a lot 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.800 of space in protest movements, and I think for good reason, 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:16.120 because frankly, white supremacy and a time with simi Arab 0:39:16.160 --> 0:39:20.080 anti Palestinian bias and people not knowing what to think 0:39:20.200 --> 0:39:24.880 or do about Palestine, and so having voices of Jewish 0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:28.120 Americans saying like, no, actually, this is bad, Like you 0:39:28.239 --> 0:39:30.200 can all see that and just go ahead and acknowledge 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:33.040 it's bad and we can move forward. I think is important. 0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:36.440 That said, I think that the voices of Jewish people 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:39.399 the voices of white people. Not all the Jews are white, 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:43.400 of course, but many Jews experienced whiteness and do not 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:47.279 generally experience the Islamophobia anti Arabias, although planet some do. 0:39:48.280 --> 0:39:50.680 Here's a voice note Ava shared with us after a 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:52.840 long day at the hospital in the Deafa. 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:56.800 Aaker our house, I made some soup with noodles and 0:39:56.920 --> 0:40:01.440 some beans are food sawba scandals. For the first time 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:05.600 in a long time, I find myself interestingly less estranged 0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.440 from my practice than I have been. It feels very 0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:13.719 in line with my faith, practice and my ethics to 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:18.279 be here, and that feels good. And it's been the 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:20.200 first time in a long time that I've felt like lighting. 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:23.279 There's been several times that people have asked me my 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:27.799 faith and I've answered I'm Jewish. And some of them 0:40:27.800 --> 0:40:32.239 were interested or excited, some of them were surprised or confused. 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:38.279 Most were like, yeah, no problem. And obviously nobody has 0:40:38.280 --> 0:40:42.239 said anything negative about me for that, or for being 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:46.960 American for that matter. My experience of Palestinians continues to 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:53.280 be of the most understanding, welcoming and people in hospitable 0:40:53.320 --> 0:40:58.200 people and people most capable of holding complexity. People here 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:00.480 obviously are not fans of the US, fans of the 0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:03.160 State of Israel, not fans of Most of their experience 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:05.840 of Jews but have no problem with people from the 0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:07.560 US or people who are Jewish. 0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:10.080 And that much is my experience in the last bank. 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:15.080 So there's that I've been offered people's foods so many times, 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:18.160 and I consistently decline, except when I've just fed them 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:20.480 and I eat something, and then I'm like, that's enough, 0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:20.800 thank you. 0:41:21.520 --> 0:41:21.880 I don't know. 0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:25.520 It's a really magical place and a really hard place 0:41:25.640 --> 0:41:27.160 to be, and I'm grateful I. 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:27.719 Get to be here. 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.200 It's obvious how much help there is great, but to 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:44.120 give the people a pleasant With their hospitals bombed and 0:41:44.160 --> 0:41:48.680 their doctors killed, they desperately need medical help. But she 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:51.120 says they have given her help as well. 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:54.000 And I think it's really important, like you say, to 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:57.440 be focused on the people who are experiencing the genocide 0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:01.920 and are assisting the genocide, because truly, in no small part, 0:42:01.960 --> 0:42:04.600 I came to Palestine hoping to be, you know, to 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:08.560 do something to help, and also to be reinspired. Because 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:14.799 Palestinians are experts in resisting colonialism, experts in resisting genocide, 0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:21.840 experts in maintaining whatever can be considered hopefulness towards the 0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:26.880 future beyond occupation and colonialism. It is not fair that 0:42:27.120 --> 0:42:30.160 Palasinians have to bear that burden of maintaining that kind 0:42:30.160 --> 0:42:33.120 of optimism and resilience and all that kind of stuff 0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:36.520 in the face of all the horrors that they've experienced, 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:38.440 like nobody should have to experience that. 0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:42.840 We then asked Ava what the impact of solidarity actions 0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:45.600 around the world have on the people of Palestine. 0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:47.640 I think it is important to talk. 0:42:47.800 --> 0:42:50.600 I think it's really unsatisfying kind of activism, as many 0:42:50.920 --> 0:42:56.240 kinds of activism are, because it's hard to convince people 0:42:56.360 --> 0:42:59.399 who are already decided they're against you, and it's also 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:04.839 and painful and exhausting and usually not helpful. And also 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:07.600 it doesn't feel particularly helpful just to like rev up 0:43:07.640 --> 0:43:11.000 people that do agree with you. But I think that 0:43:11.160 --> 0:43:15.120 people continuing to show up and not letting it rest, 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:21.520 not letting that energy die, not letting this administration feel 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:27.680 like anyone's forgotten about the ways that they failed. Also, BDS, 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:32.000 please learn about Boycopa investment and instinction. The Israeli government 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:34.239 also really is scared of that they view it as 0:43:34.360 --> 0:43:37.120 terrorism to do more of it. Not saying that people 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:39.760 should do terrorism, but do BDS, which is not terrorism. 0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:43.040 Decidedly no I'm glad you brought that up, because that's 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:46.480 what the students are protesting. They want their universities to divest. 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.640 I do think that people should learn more about BDS 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:53.760 because a lot of the public knowledge and information promoted 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.040 about BDS stuff is different from it. And that's fine. 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:00.440 I think that Starbucks and McDonald's and all these other 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:03.080 companies that are actually not BDS targets being scared to 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:06.879 be associated with Israeli occupation state is also good. Don't 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:09.600 get so much on a high horse about colonialism. Also 0:44:09.719 --> 0:44:12.640 learn about like the colonial history and reality of North 0:44:12.640 --> 0:44:17.560 America and try to work towards like supporting antipeclinial struggle there, 0:44:18.320 --> 0:44:22.319 because it, to me feels like the utmost of hypocrisy 0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:26.400 to be like you know, and the last ongoing occupation 0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:30.120 in the world and ignore the occupation that you might 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:32.759 be living on and benefit from. Personally, I think that 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:36.879 I think it insulates. I think it does important work 0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:41.560 towards building international solidarity and building anti colonial resistance around 0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:45.120 the world to talk about the interconnection between different kinds 0:44:45.120 --> 0:44:49.120 of colonialism and anti clinial struggle, and it also insulates 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:51.879 our movements against claims of anti Semitism and other things 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.439 to be like. No, it's nothing special about the Israeli State. 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:58.560 Israeli State is a really bad example of settler colonialism 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:02.840 as is unit. It sits as is Canada and be 0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:06.000 able to talk about all of those things as different 0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:09.960 sides of the same kinds of like genocidal systems. 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:13.440 In addition to sharing her impressions of Palestine with us, 0:45:13.840 --> 0:45:16.440 Ava also shared some moments of her day to day 0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:20.680 life there. These small moments of joy are something that wore, 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:25.640 genocide and violence try to take from Palestinian people, and 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:28.880 so the experience of joy is a form of resistance 0:45:29.000 --> 0:45:29.560 in itself. 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:34.320 I am here in a tiny courtyard. There are birds 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:37.600 chirping you can see, or some sounds of the street. 0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:41.239 I can see some flowers and beautiful plants, next to 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:46.080 an incredibly fancy house that a family fled from and 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:49.400 is now renting to the organization I'm working with and 0:45:49.840 --> 0:45:53.719 in turn housing also another family of one of the 0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:58.200 doctors here. And so it feels so strangely peaceful, very 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:02.960 confusing to the senses. Anyway, that's enough for now. I'm 0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:04.040 signing off by. 0:46:04.640 --> 0:46:06.960 If there's anything that you want people to know that 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:10.359 we haven't seen, or like that hasn't been being showed. 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:14.719 Like I know, the actual atrocity is far, far greater 0:46:14.840 --> 0:46:17.640 than the snippets we're seeing. But I guess, having been 0:46:17.719 --> 0:46:22.719 on the ground, what is something that maybe you want 0:46:22.800 --> 0:46:25.960 people to know that we aren't getting across on our phones. 0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:30.880 I guess the best way I can answer that is, like, 0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:38.760 it's not particularly original, but remembering that cousins are just people, 0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:42.080 and they're living their lives and trying to exist. 0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:45.319 They're just people, and. 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:51.600 Everyone and everything that they've known has been irrevocably altered, 0:46:52.239 --> 0:46:57.560 whether they've been murdered, seriously injured, had their entire family 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:01.560 taken from them and never recovered. All the landmarks they 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:06.879 grew up around, all the trees that they hung out under, 0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:11.359 all the places that they prayed and ate and got 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:17.800 into trouble, everything has gone. And thirty some thousand murdered, 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:24.520 sixty some thousand injured does not represent any part of 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:29.520 anywhere near the majority of the horror that people are experiencing. 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:33.279 But I think it's worthwhile remembering that, and also that 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:38.279 numbers are not at all representative, and also just that 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.720 like some people are political here, some people aren't critical, 0:47:41.760 --> 0:47:43.359 and most of them they'll getty dam I just want 0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:43.640 to live. 0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:52.120 It Could Happen years a production of cool Zone Media. 0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:55.040 Well more podcasts and cool Zone Media. Visit our website 0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:58.200 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 0:47:58.239 --> 0:48:00.200 Apple Podcasts, or where every was in the. 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:09.640 Podcast It Could Happen Here. That's the podcast that you're 0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:12.480 listening to. I'm your host, Nia Wong. It's a podcast 0:48:12.600 --> 0:48:14.960 about things falling apart and putting them back together again. 0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:17.920 This is a very very immediate falling apart and then 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:20.960 trying to put it back together again. Episode Today we're 0:48:20.960 --> 0:48:23.680 talking about something we haven't really talked about on the 0:48:23.719 --> 0:48:27.360 show very much, which is the music industry and the 0:48:27.480 --> 0:48:33.279 absolute fiasco that is streaming services within it. And here 0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:35.719 to talk with me today are two people who are 0:48:35.880 --> 0:48:39.359 trying to fix some of those problems. And those two 0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:42.560 people are Simon and Alex who are co founders and 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:49.239 worker owners of a new platform project initiative many such 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:52.479 words called MIRLO. And yeah, both of you two, welcome 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:52.879 to the show. 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.000 Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here. 0:48:55.239 --> 0:48:56.520 Yeah, excited to be on here. 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:58.919 Yeah. So I'm excited to talk with you both first 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:02.239 about sort of the issues with the existing sort of 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:07.080 market for music distribution, because there's been over the last 0:49:07.280 --> 0:49:10.280 really twenty years, it's been a sort of seismic shift 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:14.400 in how music distribution has functioned from a model that 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:17.040 was previously largely built on things like record sales to 0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:19.440 the sort of streaming platforms. 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:23.239 So, yeah, can you talk about what the issues you. 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:25.120 See with the sort of current model are and how 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:27.040 that kind of led you to do something different? 0:49:28.320 --> 0:49:28.520 Sure? 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:30.840 Yeah, I mean for me, that's the story of me 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:33.719 growing up with music, you know, because I was born 0:49:33.760 --> 0:49:37.040 in the nineteen eighties, so you know, my first connection 0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:40.400 to you know, to music was through playing in my 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:43.520 elementary school band, learning the trumpet and then the trombone, 0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:48.600 but also you know, beginning to buy CDs and I remember, 0:49:49.080 --> 0:49:52.320 I think it might have been will Smith's Big Willie 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:54.719 Style or whatever that like in the early nineties. I 0:49:54.760 --> 0:49:57.480 think was the first CD that I bought. But you know, 0:49:57.680 --> 0:49:59.919 that was how I, you know, music came into my world. 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:02.239 There were also some cassette tapes too, I think, like 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:04.400 when I was younger, it was cassette tapes and by 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:06.320 the time I was the one like, you know, spending 0:50:06.360 --> 0:50:08.960 my allowance money. It was CDs. But then you know, 0:50:09.040 --> 0:50:10.360 by the end of the decade, by the time in 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:14.759 high school, you know, Napster happens. I was, I think 0:50:15.120 --> 0:50:16.760 in middle school when that happened. 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:19.799 So we should explain what napster is, because I think 0:50:19.840 --> 0:50:22.320 we've outreached a point where it faded. 0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:26.560 Napster is a big deal because all of a sudden, 0:50:26.760 --> 0:50:29.000 I can speak from my you know, memory of it 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:31.280 as a twelve year old or whatever. I was probably 0:50:31.320 --> 0:50:34.520 fourteen maybe when when when Napster was a thing. I 0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:36.879 remember going over to my neighbor's house who I hung 0:50:36.920 --> 0:50:38.640 out with after school a lot, and he had this 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.879 program on his computer where he could download any song 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:46.520 that he wanted, and it was just like this incredible, 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:52.279 mind blowing new thing. Of course, that's just from the 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:56.120 end point of the distribution, right, that's from that perspective, 0:50:56.160 --> 0:51:01.239 it was this absolutely transformative expert varience. But of course 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:03.879 all of the steps that got into getting the music 0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:07.920 there was putting some carts before some horses, you know, 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:10.920 and a lot of it was you know, getting there 0:51:11.120 --> 0:51:14.040 via unauthorized leaks or other ways that because it was 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:17.560 all of a sudden, so simple to share the physical 0:51:17.719 --> 0:51:20.960 sounds through the new kinds of media channels that were 0:51:20.960 --> 0:51:25.520 available through the Internet obviously and through software. The folks 0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:27.520 at Napster were able to really jump ahead of that 0:51:27.800 --> 0:51:31.080 and in classic Silicon Valley fashion, you know, disrupt the 0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:34.680 industry and all of that was really happening with musicians 0:51:35.120 --> 0:51:37.239 early on, right this was even before the dot com 0:51:37.320 --> 0:51:40.880 bubble burst. You know, Napster was riding that wave and 0:51:40.960 --> 0:51:44.640 a big part of that sort of first arrival of 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:51.840 Silicon Valley startup technology really arriving in millions of you know, 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:55.800 living rooms and home office computers and you know all that. 0:51:56.480 --> 0:52:00.320 And so I think historically, you know, with technology, this 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:02.920 really does play out that oftentimes musicians are the ones 0:52:02.960 --> 0:52:07.600 that get disrupted first. And for decades this has been 0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:09.840 you can look at the history of the twentieth century 0:52:09.960 --> 0:52:11.920 and the history of media in the twentieth century as 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:17.319 this tension between musicians doing what they do and technologists 0:52:17.440 --> 0:52:21.480 doing what they do, and capitalists using the technology to 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:24.440 extract value from the musicians, you know. And then there 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:26.400 have of course been lots of ways that musicians have 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:29.560 organized and fought back, and you know, wrote their own 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:32.239 chapters in the story, and I think that we're just 0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:36.440 just starting to get to the point where that is 0:52:36.520 --> 0:52:40.839 happening in this latest episode. Napster is, you know, twenty 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:42.640 five years old at this point in terms of when 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:46.560 that moment happened. And of course the reaction to Napster 0:52:46.719 --> 0:52:51.560 from the entrenched music industry, which we're all consolidating under 0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:54.759 these massive media conglomerates at that time, they fought back 0:52:55.480 --> 0:52:57.759 kind of old school, and I remember I was in 0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:01.800 college when they were soon doing college kids for downloading 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:04.920 stuff on Napster, for having files on your computer that 0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:08.520 you know, weren't authorized or whatever. Those were my peers. 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:11.360 You know, I didn't actually know anybody personally that this 0:53:11.480 --> 0:53:14.520 was happening to, but this was, you know, this was 0:53:14.560 --> 0:53:16.719 something that we were all aware of and we were 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:18.720 all kind of figuring out together. 0:53:19.719 --> 0:53:22.239 There's a really good Corey doctor book that's like a 0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:25.160 fictionalized account of what this period was like called Pirate Cinema. 0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:27.359 That is great, So if you ever want to yeah, 0:53:27.360 --> 0:53:29.319 if people want to read that, it is very good. 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:32.799 It's about the sort of film version of the same 0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:34.200 fight that was happening. 0:53:35.520 --> 0:53:37.840 Exactly, and they were I mean, no holds barred, Like, 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:41.520 they had massive budgets for expensive lawyers, and they just 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:44.600 sent them after whoever they could, thinking that that would 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:47.840 stem the tide. And obviously that wasn't going to stop anything, 0:53:48.120 --> 0:53:54.440 because what Napster signaled was this massive, technologically catalyzed paradigm 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:57.040 shift where the way that people listen to music was 0:53:57.560 --> 0:54:02.000 just radically transforming before everyone one's eyes. And it took 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.400 the music industry side of it a little while to 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:06.680 catch up to that reality. But once they did, they 0:54:06.760 --> 0:54:09.040 started trying to figure out, Okay, what are the ways 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:15.160 that we can get a cut right? Obviously if everyone's 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:18.520 just doing this illegally, and you know this is just 0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:21.160 if everybody is doing something illegal at the same time, 0:54:21.239 --> 0:54:24.080 even we can't send enough lawyers to sue everybody out 0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:26.160 of existence, so we need to figure out how to 0:54:26.200 --> 0:54:28.560 make this work. And that's when you know there started 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:30.840 to be experiments with other big corporate players in the 0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:34.040 technology industry. I remember from my perspective, it was the 0:54:34.160 --> 0:54:37.880 iTunes store. I remember ripping all of my CDs that 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:40.920 I bought in high school, like spending a whole weekend 0:54:41.400 --> 0:54:44.359 just ripping them all into my iTunes library. And kind 0:54:44.360 --> 0:54:47.320 of curating it and having my you know, all of 0:54:47.400 --> 0:54:50.320 my MP three's and iTunes, and I had an iPod 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:52.400 and that was where I would listen to things. And 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:56.759 I didn't even really purchase a lot of the like 0:54:56.800 --> 0:54:58.880 because they had ninety nine cent tracks. That was kind 0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:00.640 of things like you could pay dollar and you can 0:55:00.719 --> 0:55:02.959 get what you wanted. I didn't buy that much music 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:06.440 that by that point, because mostly it was transferring files 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:08.759 that I had burned from CDs. But that was how 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:12.160 the industry was kind of making its peace with this disruption, 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:16.439 was to partner with Apple, and then later Spotify comes 0:55:16.480 --> 0:55:19.920 onto the scene with this promise of the Universal Jukebox, 0:55:20.040 --> 0:55:23.080 Right like, we're going to build the tool that is 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:26.279 going to allow for any listener to just pay a 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:29.320 subscription and they can listen to anything they want on 0:55:29.360 --> 0:55:31.800 the internet. Because you can hire it anything on the internet. 0:55:31.880 --> 0:55:33.440 We're going to make the legal way to do it, 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:35.879 and so we're going to let people pay and we're 0:55:35.920 --> 0:55:37.640 going to design all of the back end. We're going 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:40.840 to centralize it in our you know, technological systems, and 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:43.560 we're going to build this tool that can allow anybody 0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:47.000 to listen to music anytime without having to in the 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:49.680 back of their mind be worried about if they're stealing 0:55:49.840 --> 0:55:52.560 from a musician or if you know, they're going to 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:55.840 get sued a record label or whatever. Right so, and 0:55:55.960 --> 0:55:59.719 of course the record companies were all in on that bet, 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:03.520 and that is where you know there I haven't seen 0:56:03.560 --> 0:56:05.560 all of the books or whatnot, but it's very clear 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:09.600 that you know, the major labels were big you know, 0:56:09.880 --> 0:56:13.520 equity owners in Spotify. So they're basically making big bets 0:56:13.800 --> 0:56:19.120 on Spotify. And then the tension that has been navigated is, Okay, 0:56:19.239 --> 0:56:23.640 how do they maintain the value of the catalog, the 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:26.040 back catalog that the intellectual property rights of all of 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:29.400 the recordings that throughout you know, the history of recorded 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:33.560 music they have consolidated into these you know, catalog portfolios 0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:38.160 of sounds and songs. So that's valuable and they need 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:40.759 to get their piece from that, But then they also 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:44.360 need to get their piece from Spotify. The business you know, 0:56:44.840 --> 0:56:48.319 continuing to exist and that subscriber revenue from people who 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:50.960 are paying for the privilege to be able to listen 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:53.480 to any song that they want at the click of 0:56:53.560 --> 0:57:00.359 a button, and that has Yeah, it's created some weird Incentivesicularly, 0:57:00.719 --> 0:57:02.319 the group of people at the end of the day 0:57:02.360 --> 0:57:05.520 that really gets left out of that are the musicians, right, 0:57:06.120 --> 0:57:09.839 because throughout history, you know, the partnerships with people who 0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:13.200 distribute music have been very exploitive. Right. It's like, Okay, 0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:15.960 i'll give you an advance to go record your music, 0:57:16.240 --> 0:57:18.480 give you all this creative control, you know, set up 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:20.760 the studio time, do all the legwork to make it 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:22.640 so you can do whatever you want as a musician. 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:25.919 But then we're keeping the master recordings. You know, we're 0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:28.400 keeping a percentage of every sale that you make. So 0:57:28.520 --> 0:57:32.840 it does become this kind of deal where the labels, 0:57:33.000 --> 0:57:36.960 over the longer term, benefit much much more than the musicians. 0:57:37.040 --> 0:57:40.240 And then the deal will spotify really amplified that because 0:57:40.760 --> 0:57:42.920 the labels are making sure they get their cut, but 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:45.400 they're not always making sure that the musicians get their cut. 0:57:45.520 --> 0:57:47.920 And even the musicians getting their cut has to go 0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:51.280 through the labels first, and so the labels have this 0:57:51.840 --> 0:57:57.400 relationship with the technology company that's distributing the files themselves, 0:57:58.200 --> 0:58:02.040 and that's kind of the bargain where it stayed, right 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:07.680 and then most recently that became even more amplified. It 0:58:07.760 --> 0:58:10.000 sort of turned up the volume on the disparity in 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:16.680 this dynamic when Spotify made the decision to demonetize many 0:58:16.960 --> 0:58:19.000 of the songs that are on the platform. So it 0:58:19.120 --> 0:58:22.560 used to be that you would get some fraction of 0:58:22.640 --> 0:58:25.360 a cent for every time that someone streamed your song, 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:29.160 and Spotify had this complex algorithm for determining how you 0:58:29.240 --> 0:58:32.400 got paid out, and they recently tweaked that algorithm so 0:58:32.520 --> 0:58:34.960 that if you don't meet a certain threshold of plays, 0:58:35.040 --> 0:58:37.200 you don't get anything. So you could have your music 0:58:37.280 --> 0:58:40.160 on Spotify, could be music that you worked really hard 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:43.200 and you know, even invested your own time and money 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:46.200 and resources into putting out there, and you don't get 0:58:46.240 --> 0:58:47.800 a penny of it, and you don't get you say, 0:58:47.920 --> 0:58:51.080 and why? And that's the starting point from a musicians 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:53.160 perspective about where things are at. 0:58:54.000 --> 0:58:58.440 I think it's also interesting to think about how the 0:58:58.520 --> 0:58:59.080 way those. 0:58:58.960 --> 0:59:02.000 Technology systems and the way that the music distribution has 0:59:02.440 --> 0:59:05.960 changed has also changed the way that music gets made. 0:59:08.040 --> 0:59:10.880 So you see a lot more, you know, very big 0:59:11.040 --> 0:59:16.880 name musicians releasing single tracks to big acclaim because now 0:59:17.120 --> 0:59:19.760 the incentive, and with the tweaking of the incentive, is 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:20.080 that you. 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:25.360 Want individual tracks that are making millions and millions of plays, 0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:29.280 so it really becomes about that rather than and you 0:59:29.360 --> 0:59:32.840 know that can be fairly value neutral, you know, album 0:59:32.960 --> 0:59:35.960 versus track or whatever, but it is really influencing the 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:38.840 way that you know, the first twenty seconds or so 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:41.120 of a song are the most important. So the structure 0:59:41.160 --> 0:59:44.760 of songs are changing to suit you know what, what 0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:49.480 actual music gets made because people skip the song, then 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:52.760 it doesn't make any money. And yeah, So the way 0:59:52.840 --> 0:59:55.680 that the technology and capital and the incentives of capital 0:59:55.760 --> 1:00:00.000 have changed to actually shape the culture that we're consumed, 1:00:00.440 --> 1:00:01.760 I think it's very interesting. 1:00:01.840 --> 1:00:04.720 Yeah, And speaking of the way that capital and capital 1:00:04.800 --> 1:00:07.480 incentives changes the structure of what you're consuming, we need 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:15.960 to take an ad break and we are back. So 1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:20.400 I think one of the kind of leak things about 1:00:20.680 --> 1:00:23.720 this kind of era of media distribution has been how 1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:29.320 kind of staggeringly impossible it's felt to resist any of 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:33.000 these forces, largely because you know, now you have the 1:00:33.080 --> 1:00:36.080 power effectively of these massive tech companies and then also 1:00:36.240 --> 1:00:40.640 the power of the existing sort of studio monopolies on 1:00:40.800 --> 1:00:45.760 the same side, sort of wielding a giant hammer and 1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:50.000 hammering everyone else in the line. And this is the 1:00:50.040 --> 1:00:52.880 point where I want to ask, Yeah, I start talking 1:00:52.920 --> 1:00:55.160 about what mer Low is. So can we talk a 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:59.320 little bit about I guess first how it got started, 1:00:59.480 --> 1:01:01.320 and then we can get more into what is it 1:01:01.480 --> 1:01:03.400 and how it's attempting to change all of this. 1:01:04.960 --> 1:01:11.360 So about two years ago, now, wow, I was doing 1:01:11.400 --> 1:01:16.600 a lot of volunteering with a project called Resonate, which 1:01:16.680 --> 1:01:19.720 is a little bit of a precursor to mirror Low 1:01:19.760 --> 1:01:24.920 in a way. Resonate is trying to be a alternative 1:01:24.960 --> 1:01:27.800 to Spotify. They want to be a streaming service where 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:32.720 you can basically just create playlists, listen to music, and 1:01:33.240 --> 1:01:35.760 just and what was novel about Resonate was that they 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:39.920 had a payout structure where every time you played a stream, 1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:43.439 you paid a little bit more. So if you pay once, 1:01:43.520 --> 1:01:47.240 you pay a cent, If you play twice you pay 1:01:47.280 --> 1:01:48.680 two cents, and then it would increase to. 1:01:49.440 --> 1:01:51.720 Paying around a dollar. And once you paid a dollar for. 1:01:51.760 --> 1:01:53.760 A track, so you played it like nine times, you 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:56.919 owned the track and then it was yours to pay 1:01:57.000 --> 1:02:00.320 for it indefinitely. That was cool I did somewhere there, 1:02:01.080 --> 1:02:06.840 But what became apparent quickly was again these incentive structures 1:02:06.880 --> 1:02:10.400 where if you want to do a streaming platform. You 1:02:10.560 --> 1:02:13.600 want it to be a universal jukebox. People will use 1:02:13.640 --> 1:02:16.720 it for the music that's on it, and they want 1:02:16.760 --> 1:02:20.480 to hear the music that they know. And if you 1:02:20.560 --> 1:02:23.240 want to be a universal jukebox, you have to wade 1:02:23.520 --> 1:02:27.320 into the realm of royalties. And one of the things 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:32.120 that we didn't mention earlier is that, as far as 1:02:32.160 --> 1:02:34.320 I know, maybe it's changed in the past year or so, 1:02:34.800 --> 1:02:40.160 Spotify is still not profitable. Despite massive payouts to the CEO, 1:02:41.200 --> 1:02:45.160 Spotify doesn't actually turn a profit. It's just investment driven, 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:48.920 and that is in large part because of the way 1:02:48.960 --> 1:02:50.840 that royalties work on songs. 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:56.240 It's just really hard to actually make money on top 1:02:56.280 --> 1:02:57.200 of all the costs of the. 1:02:57.240 --> 1:03:00.200 Infrastructure, which was a little bit of a clue for 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:06.120 us for not working for a bootstrapped, non VC funded 1:03:07.200 --> 1:03:10.880 work or co op with absolutely no money, it was 1:03:11.560 --> 1:03:15.640 unlikely that that would succeed. We started also looking at 1:03:15.800 --> 1:03:18.240 projects that are kind of in the same space and 1:03:18.440 --> 1:03:21.680 we're a little bit more successful. That's how we got 1:03:21.720 --> 1:03:24.040 into contact with Alex and Alex I don't know if 1:03:24.080 --> 1:03:24.960 you want to talk a little bit. 1:03:24.920 --> 1:03:27.880 About Ampled, sure, Yeah, So Sion mentioned that he was 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:30.000 coming out of Resonate. At the same time, I was 1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:36.400 coming out of AMPLE, which was a platform cooperative initiative 1:03:36.840 --> 1:03:40.600 that was started later part of the Last Second twenty 1:03:40.600 --> 1:03:43.440 eighteen twenty nineteen. I forgot exactly when I joined towards 1:03:43.440 --> 1:03:47.680 the end of twenty twenty one, and the idea behind 1:03:47.720 --> 1:03:51.600 ampled was that it was going to create essentially a 1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:59.480 monthly patronage kind of platform for musicians, so you, you know, 1:03:59.640 --> 1:04:03.360 release exclusive stuff on the platform that's yours and that 1:04:03.440 --> 1:04:09.560 you have the intellectual property rights too, and you have 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:14.360 supporters who pay a monthly contribution to have access to 1:04:14.480 --> 1:04:18.240 that content. And so they had a little I guess 1:04:18.280 --> 1:04:20.760 it was kind of like a blog post kind of 1:04:21.000 --> 1:04:23.000 format that could you get in bed audio. You could 1:04:23.040 --> 1:04:25.280 embed videos and it would go out and and email 1:04:25.360 --> 1:04:27.800 to your supporters every month, and they could log into 1:04:27.840 --> 1:04:30.880 the platform to listen to your whatever you're releasing there. 1:04:31.720 --> 1:04:35.040 I joined AMPLE because I was actually at the time 1:04:35.360 --> 1:04:38.880 coming out of some other work that I had been 1:04:38.960 --> 1:04:42.680 doing and building democratic workplaces. I had been involved in 1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:46.400 starting another project that was trying to organize itself that way, 1:04:46.920 --> 1:04:50.560 and was also working with my partner who's a therapist, 1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:53.680 to start a mental health worker cooperative at the same time. 1:04:53.760 --> 1:04:57.920 So I was deep in the worker cooperative nerd zone 1:04:58.360 --> 1:05:00.680 at that point. But I had not been playing very 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:04.360 much music. I'm a trombonist and do jazz and improvised music, 1:05:04.680 --> 1:05:06.880 and I had taken a couple of years off really 1:05:06.960 --> 1:05:09.240 from playing and was starting to get cranky. There was 1:05:09.320 --> 1:05:11.760 just a part of me that needs to make music. 1:05:11.880 --> 1:05:14.000 That's just the part of who I am, and it 1:05:14.160 --> 1:05:16.320 was just becoming really clear to me that that needed 1:05:16.320 --> 1:05:18.640 to happen. So I was starting to look for what 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:21.960 are some ways that I can start putting some stuff 1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:25.360 out into the world again and ideally doing that work 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:27.560 in the spirit of cooperation, you know, and finding other 1:05:27.640 --> 1:05:31.480 people who shared my enthusiasm for the idea that doing 1:05:31.520 --> 1:05:35.240 the work together and learning how to actually run things 1:05:35.440 --> 1:05:39.760 cooperatively without you know, a management structure on top of 1:05:39.840 --> 1:05:42.479 it siphoning energy away from it. And so I found 1:05:42.520 --> 1:05:46.480 Ample on the Internet and saw what the proposition was. 1:05:46.560 --> 1:05:48.440 And part of their structure at the time was that 1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:51.800 you could actually become a co owner of the platform 1:05:52.200 --> 1:05:54.200 by being an artist that was using the platform, and 1:05:54.240 --> 1:05:56.240 once you got to a certain number of supporters on 1:05:56.320 --> 1:06:02.800 the platform, then you got to be well. The governance 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:07.040 rights involved being able to a third of the board members. 1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:10.200 It was a nine person board with three artists representatives 1:06:10.400 --> 1:06:13.800 could run for the board, and there was also sort 1:06:13.800 --> 1:06:16.600 of an extra space and their discord that was sort 1:06:16.600 --> 1:06:19.440 of artist owner, you know, only kind of space to 1:06:19.440 --> 1:06:22.080 connect around that. And so yeah, once I got the 1:06:22.880 --> 1:06:25.840 number of people following my project, this was in twenty 1:06:25.920 --> 1:06:29.680 twenty two, got an email saying congratulations, you're an artist owner, 1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:34.880 and at the same time realized that the party was 1:06:35.160 --> 1:06:38.680 kind of over. I had when I arrived into the space, 1:06:38.760 --> 1:06:40.600 I was like, Hey, everybody, what's up? And it was 1:06:40.720 --> 1:06:42.960 just kind of crickets, you know. And there were a 1:06:42.960 --> 1:06:45.440 couple of the workers who were working on it at 1:06:45.480 --> 1:06:48.240 the time, who I'm pretty sure were still volunteering their time, 1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:50.960 who had had some conversations with and gotten to know 1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:53.400 a little bit, but it was sort of a ghost 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:55.680 ship by that point. And it turns out I was 1:06:55.720 --> 1:07:03.320 the last artist owner to join yeahs distinction exact. The 1:07:03.400 --> 1:07:06.880 platform wound down entirely at the end of twenty twenty three, 1:07:07.320 --> 1:07:09.880 and so yeah, it was maybe a few months after 1:07:09.960 --> 1:07:11.880 I had joined and started using it. I kind of 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:15.840 had a monthly flow where I would do something, send 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:18.720 an update, write something about what I was working on, 1:07:18.960 --> 1:07:23.480 records and trombone sounds, you know, linked to something else 1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:26.080 that was on the internet, you know. And so after 1:07:26.120 --> 1:07:27.840 a few months of doing that, yeah, I got an 1:07:27.880 --> 1:07:32.240 email saying we're winding down, sorry, and that was kind 1:07:32.280 --> 1:07:34.080 of that. But by that point I had met Si 1:07:34.240 --> 1:07:36.560 and we were both kind of starting to compare notes 1:07:36.560 --> 1:07:41.520 about these respective projects that had similar goals, similar ideals, 1:07:41.760 --> 1:07:50.959 similar interest in you know, cooperating, and realizing that neither 1:07:51.000 --> 1:07:54.240 of them was, you know, was going to be a 1:07:54.320 --> 1:07:56.240 place where we could continue the work that we wanted 1:07:56.280 --> 1:07:59.680 to do, And so we started talking about, well, what 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:02.240 if we were going to start from scratch, what would 1:08:02.280 --> 1:08:05.120 that look like? And so I brought some other friends 1:08:05.200 --> 1:08:09.040 he'd been working with that resonate and these conversations we've 1:08:09.080 --> 1:08:12.280 just started as conversations like similar to the one we're 1:08:12.320 --> 1:08:14.880 having right now, where we're starting to kind of develop 1:08:14.960 --> 1:08:17.960 an analysis together about what's going on in the music industry, 1:08:18.360 --> 1:08:21.559 what might be able to be done differently. And after 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:25.559 a few months those conversations started turning into wait, yeah, 1:08:25.600 --> 1:08:29.120 we could actually do some of this ourselves and that 1:08:29.320 --> 1:08:32.639 was when the idea of mirla really started to hit 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:33.040 the ground. 1:08:33.800 --> 1:08:36.880 Yeah, we will talk more about how all of it 1:08:36.960 --> 1:08:39.160 sort of came together and what the structure looks like 1:08:39.280 --> 1:08:42.400 and what it will look like after more of these ads. 1:08:46.760 --> 1:08:49.360 We are back, So let's get into this sort of 1:08:51.080 --> 1:08:54.320 meat of what near low is. So can you talk 1:08:54.360 --> 1:08:57.479 about what is sort of different about mirlaw than the 1:08:57.520 --> 1:08:59.400 other sort of platforms in the market. How is the 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:00.920 cooperative structure work. 1:09:02.200 --> 1:09:06.000 Yeah, So when we were looking at ways to. 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:10.720 Actually make a profitable business, which is unfortunately a thing 1:09:10.800 --> 1:09:13.680 that you have to do if you want to or 1:09:13.720 --> 1:09:16.200 at least a revenue making business, if you want to 1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:18.800 be able to pay people, we were looking at other 1:09:19.720 --> 1:09:24.439 platforms and spaces that exist out there that do actually 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:29.320 make money. So Patreon and band Camp have been profitable. 1:09:29.439 --> 1:09:33.479 Band Camp for a long time actually posted their earnings 1:09:33.520 --> 1:09:39.120 as a report. Then band Camp got sold, and then 1:09:39.160 --> 1:09:41.880 it got sold again, and then band Camp laid off 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:45.040 half of their staff, including everyone who was part of 1:09:45.120 --> 1:09:49.800 the union organizing committee. And we were already like we 1:09:49.920 --> 1:09:53.160 already had a basically a prototype at that point, but 1:09:53.320 --> 1:09:55.439 that was also a moment where we realized is like oh, 1:09:55.800 --> 1:09:58.200 we gotta go, we gotta press goo on this thing. 1:09:59.320 --> 1:10:02.559 And so what we have, what the product is right 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:05.519 now is basically it is I would say, a lightweight 1:10:05.600 --> 1:10:09.400 clone of bandcamp. It doesn't have all the functionality with 1:10:09.960 --> 1:10:16.160 the added features of more Patreon stall subscription based things. 1:10:16.439 --> 1:10:20.879 So musicians can go onto mir Low, they upload their albums, 1:10:21.640 --> 1:10:24.880 they can sell their albums as digital copies for whatever 1:10:24.960 --> 1:10:29.760 they want, for free or for money, and then they 1:10:29.840 --> 1:10:33.040 can also set subscription tiers, use it as a mailing 1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:37.200 list basically to send out updates. Two subscribers have specific 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:40.280 tiers that receive specific content. For example, you could have 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:43.240 a tier that if someone subscribes, they automatically get any 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:48.240 new release that you put on the platform. And yeah, 1:10:48.320 --> 1:10:51.599 that's basically the product. It allows music playing, but it's 1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:54.320 not as streaming service. You can't make playlists, it doesn't 1:10:54.320 --> 1:10:58.600 do infinite streaming. The plays are basically promotional plays. So 1:10:58.720 --> 1:11:02.519 we've had two hundred and fifty artists, which includes some 1:11:02.600 --> 1:11:06.240 people who work under several names, but so two hundred 1:11:06.280 --> 1:11:10.400 and fifty entities artists who have uploaded five hundred albums 1:11:10.720 --> 1:11:12.880 to Erolo, which I don't know, I haven't done the 1:11:12.960 --> 1:11:15.720 math on what that is like listening time wise, but 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:19.040 it's probably already more music that I could consume, and 1:11:19.200 --> 1:11:21.600 we have people buying music. It's really exciting, you know, 1:11:21.720 --> 1:11:24.240 like it's not we're not we're not making enough money 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:28.559 to bankroll anything, but it's exciting that I think we've 1:11:28.600 --> 1:11:31.800 got about four hundred dollars moving through the platform every 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:35.360 month at this point. So that's that's really cool. We 1:11:35.479 --> 1:11:38.400 need more obviously, but that goes a long way to 1:11:39.600 --> 1:11:43.680 you know, I guess confirming the ideas that. 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:47.920 We've had so far. And there was a second part of. 1:11:47.920 --> 1:11:50.519 That question, Yeah, how does the sort of cooperative structure 1:11:50.600 --> 1:11:53.200 work now? And then we could move on to what 1:11:53.400 --> 1:11:55.439 is it going to look like when the platform is 1:11:55.479 --> 1:11:57.280 sort of more developed, more mature. 1:11:58.800 --> 1:12:02.320 Yeah, I can speak to little bit. So we also, 1:12:03.360 --> 1:12:07.240 in our thinking about this, took a lot of lessons 1:12:07.280 --> 1:12:11.320 from our experiences in Ample and Resonate, also the other 1:12:11.400 --> 1:12:16.200 experiences I've had in you know, cooperative organizing structures. And 1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:19.720 one of the things that we wanted to make sure 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:21.559 we did was we had kind of a phase one 1:12:21.800 --> 1:12:24.439 and then during that phase one also kind of figure 1:12:24.439 --> 1:12:27.200 out the vision for what we want to see moving 1:12:27.240 --> 1:12:29.360 forward and how we can grow into something that's more 1:12:29.439 --> 1:12:32.160 like what we ultimately want. In other words, we didn't 1:12:32.160 --> 1:12:34.040 want to put the car before the horse was saying like, okay, 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:39.160 let's draw out like this really spiffy multi stakeholder cooperative 1:12:39.200 --> 1:12:41.640 thing where the artists have these things and the you know, 1:12:41.920 --> 1:12:44.479 listeners have these things, and the coders have you know, 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:49.679 you know, for starters. We just figured out who among 1:12:49.840 --> 1:12:54.120 us is like ready to our government name to be 1:12:54.280 --> 1:12:58.360 some paper and you know, open an LLC. And that 1:12:58.680 --> 1:13:00.920 ended up being three of us who are based in 1:13:00.960 --> 1:13:04.719 the United States MESI and one other working on our Jodie, 1:13:05.680 --> 1:13:08.080 and then from there the three of us were kind 1:13:08.120 --> 1:13:12.120 of the poor team that is going to build things 1:13:12.160 --> 1:13:15.080 out from here. So we're still very early stages, you know. 1:13:15.160 --> 1:13:17.519 The soft launch and the platform was the beginning of 1:13:17.600 --> 1:13:20.000 this year, just a couple of months ago. We incorporated 1:13:20.080 --> 1:13:22.280 last year in November, so all of this is totally 1:13:22.320 --> 1:13:25.960 brand new, and you know, we're figuring out as we go. 1:13:26.160 --> 1:13:29.160 But the idea with the current group is that we 1:13:29.320 --> 1:13:34.040 start to practice a culture of decision making by consent. 1:13:34.680 --> 1:13:38.200 And that's this idea that particularly anything high level about 1:13:38.439 --> 1:13:40.559 you know, what the business is or how it runs 1:13:41.240 --> 1:13:45.000 is consented to by everybody in the group, and so 1:13:45.560 --> 1:13:48.240 if there's anything that any of us are a no to, 1:13:48.680 --> 1:13:51.000 you know, we're like, hold up, this isn't going to 1:13:51.040 --> 1:13:53.840 work for me. That actually is the way that we 1:13:53.960 --> 1:13:57.320 steer the ship forward. So that's been something that we've 1:13:57.320 --> 1:14:00.719 been working on building together. We're working with a legal 1:14:00.800 --> 1:14:05.400 team to codify this into a sort of worker cooperative 1:14:05.560 --> 1:14:10.760 style LLC operating agreement. You know, we're members of the 1:14:10.840 --> 1:14:13.719 US Federation of Worker Cooperatives. We've been kind of learning 1:14:13.760 --> 1:14:19.400 from the ecosystemative ways that worker cooperative policies and procedures 1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:21.679 can be built into the nucleus of this at the beginning. 1:14:22.200 --> 1:14:26.240 And also, the three of us each come from different places, 1:14:26.880 --> 1:14:30.400 and so we each bring really different perspectives to where 1:14:30.479 --> 1:14:34.640 things need to go. And so that's also been a 1:14:34.720 --> 1:14:37.840 part of you know, where we're starting from is if 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:41.559 we can get enough unique perspectives into the space, build 1:14:41.600 --> 1:14:46.360 the core practice this culture of consent where even a 1:14:46.439 --> 1:14:49.559 minority of no is a no for the whole group, 1:14:50.280 --> 1:14:53.320 and start to build that in, then that is kind 1:14:53.360 --> 1:14:57.000 of the seed for where things go from here. 1:14:57.680 --> 1:15:00.439 In terms of where things go from here. Things that 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:03.439 you talk about a lot is the exit to community, 1:15:04.080 --> 1:15:06.360 And yeah, I wanted to ask, can you explain what 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:09.160 that is and what it sort of means for what 1:15:09.320 --> 1:15:11.080 this platform is going to be going forward. 1:15:11.880 --> 1:15:15.519 Yeah, So this idea of exit to community comes from 1:15:16.439 --> 1:15:19.599 conversations that have been happening in the solid area economy 1:15:19.720 --> 1:15:25.240 world about what would it look like to support essentially 1:15:25.520 --> 1:15:30.479 startup businesses right that the founders are aiming for a 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:33.200 different kind of exit than how we traditionally think about, 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:37.120 you know, startup businesses that are aiming for an exit 1:15:37.320 --> 1:15:41.000 to either get bought by a bigger company or get 1:15:41.080 --> 1:15:44.759 listed publicly on a stock market and become essentially instruments 1:15:44.760 --> 1:15:48.880 of financial speculation. And that's really the only kind of 1:15:49.040 --> 1:15:52.280 pathway out. We even saw this with band Camp, that 1:15:52.840 --> 1:15:57.200 you know, this company that was internally profitable and doing 1:15:57.320 --> 1:16:01.439 things the way that regular old businesses to operate, you know, 1:16:02.080 --> 1:16:05.120 and releasing their financials every year and you know, really 1:16:05.360 --> 1:16:07.720 doing it by the book, so to speak. There that 1:16:07.920 --> 1:16:10.280 the endpoint, you know, ten ish years down the road, 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:12.400 was getting bought by a bigger company because what they 1:16:12.479 --> 1:16:16.280 had built was valuable to Epic Games, and you know, 1:16:16.800 --> 1:16:19.880 there's been speculation about why Epic bought band camp, but 1:16:20.040 --> 1:16:23.000 you know, whatever the reason was, it wasn't because they 1:16:23.040 --> 1:16:26.000 were taking all the boxes as a profitable business, every 1:16:26.000 --> 1:16:27.400 step with the way. That might have been part of it. 1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:29.800 But the idea was that band camp had become something 1:16:29.840 --> 1:16:32.640 more valuable and that they could cash out. You know, 1:16:32.760 --> 1:16:35.320 I think it was two hundred and eighty something million dollars, 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:38.400 which is a big chunk of change, and that, you know, 1:16:38.760 --> 1:16:42.519 the decision to cash out was made by the founder. 1:16:42.640 --> 1:16:46.160 There was likely other people who had input into the decision, 1:16:46.520 --> 1:16:48.840 but there was certainly wasn't you know, a team that 1:16:49.080 --> 1:16:51.799 was you know, having a deliberation and making a consent 1:16:51.880 --> 1:16:54.160 based decision about how to do that. It was one 1:16:54.240 --> 1:16:56.760 guy and he signed the paperwork and that was it. 1:16:57.560 --> 1:17:00.439 So the idea of exit to the community is essentially 1:17:00.520 --> 1:17:04.639 been an invitation to explore alternatives, alternatives that are more 1:17:04.720 --> 1:17:07.719 in alignment with building the world that we're actually trying 1:17:07.760 --> 1:17:12.080 to see. So for us, that means, you know, first 1:17:12.120 --> 1:17:16.040 of all, creating something that is financially viable, you know, 1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:19.280 that can actually support the work that it takes to 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:22.120 both maintain the platform and maintain accountability to the people 1:17:22.160 --> 1:17:25.800 who are using platform, particularly the musicians, so that those 1:17:25.920 --> 1:17:28.960 relationships need to get built. There needs to be enough 1:17:29.080 --> 1:17:32.439 trust in order to feel like this is actually a 1:17:32.520 --> 1:17:37.200 thing worth continuing to do together. And then there's also 1:17:38.120 --> 1:17:42.760 the work of having it be essentially used enough that 1:17:43.000 --> 1:17:45.240 the math works out that the work that it takes 1:17:45.320 --> 1:17:49.040 to sustain the platform can be supported and the work 1:17:49.080 --> 1:17:52.479 that it takes to make music can be supported, because ultimately, 1:17:52.560 --> 1:17:54.639 this is a platform that is trying to move money 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:58.200 into musicians' pockets. So if we can pull that off, 1:17:58.439 --> 1:18:00.920 then the next step is the exit community step, which 1:18:00.920 --> 1:18:04.200 the way I see it, would be essentially co designing 1:18:05.040 --> 1:18:09.400 a set of agreements about how the system will continue 1:18:09.479 --> 1:18:12.599 to be tended to moving forward in ways that are 1:18:12.720 --> 1:18:18.479 directly accountable to the people who are involved in making 1:18:18.520 --> 1:18:21.200 it go themselves. Right, So in this case, you know, 1:18:21.400 --> 1:18:24.840 we see the community as kind of broadly comprised of 1:18:25.640 --> 1:18:29.280 three different groups, not like groups of people that all 1:18:29.320 --> 1:18:31.240 hang out together and do stuff together, but like there's 1:18:31.280 --> 1:18:34.360 kind of three kinds of contributions that are getting made. 1:18:34.960 --> 1:18:39.439 One is the people who are working on developing the software. 1:18:39.560 --> 1:18:42.000 This is an open source software project, so there's been 1:18:42.000 --> 1:18:43.800 a lot of inputs from a lot of different people. 1:18:43.840 --> 1:18:46.000 Of that, of course, the work of maintaining an open 1:18:46.040 --> 1:18:49.920 source software project requires resourcing, but that's one of the groups. 1:18:50.320 --> 1:18:52.880 Another group is the musicians, the people who are you 1:18:53.360 --> 1:18:57.639 making stuff that they put on the platform. And another 1:18:57.800 --> 1:18:59.640 is the people who are listening and the people who 1:18:59.680 --> 1:19:04.639 are supporting with you know, with patronage, with money, right, 1:19:04.760 --> 1:19:07.400 and and some people might be in all three of 1:19:07.439 --> 1:19:10.000 those categories, you know, So it's not like there's your 1:19:10.040 --> 1:19:13.160 one or the other, but those three things all have 1:19:13.360 --> 1:19:17.360 really important and important stake in the sustainability of the 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:20.680 overall operations. So the exit to community step would be 1:19:21.080 --> 1:19:25.840 essentially designing standards, protocols, agreements, whatever you want to call 1:19:25.920 --> 1:19:28.800 it for how we do this work moving forward, and 1:19:28.880 --> 1:19:30.840 then we can get out of the way if we want, 1:19:31.600 --> 1:19:33.240 you know. So that's the other part of it. The 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:35.720 other part of it, too, of an exit is how 1:19:35.760 --> 1:19:37.640 do you make sure that the founders are whole, you know, 1:19:37.920 --> 1:19:41.360 so that it's not like we've put all this work 1:19:41.439 --> 1:19:45.080 into making something possible and then it's working and then 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:47.720 everyone's like, oh yeah, screw you, get out of here. 1:19:47.800 --> 1:19:50.280 We're ready to take this on our ohs and we're 1:19:50.320 --> 1:19:53.160 hoping that doesn't happen either, So figuring out that is 1:19:53.240 --> 1:19:57.160 also a part of the's what's before us. My aspiration 1:19:57.400 --> 1:19:59.880 and my vision for this is that culture of can 1:20:00.400 --> 1:20:03.519 that we're baking into the worker stage of this right 1:20:03.640 --> 1:20:08.320 now can be something that continues to be a core 1:20:08.960 --> 1:20:11.080 aspect of how we move forward. In other words, once 1:20:11.160 --> 1:20:13.720 we really see who all the stakeholders are, let's come 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:16.680 up with a creative way to figure out how this 1:20:16.840 --> 1:20:18.920 is going to work that everybody can consent to them. 1:20:19.080 --> 1:20:20.680 I think that's a good place of transition to the 1:20:20.760 --> 1:20:22.320 last thing I wanted to ask, which is you know, 1:20:22.439 --> 1:20:27.000 you've both came from projects that kind of fizzled, and 1:20:27.200 --> 1:20:28.479 this is the thing that happens a lot of time 1:20:28.520 --> 1:20:30.320 with projects like this. So what is the sort of 1:20:30.439 --> 1:20:33.280 plan to make sure that this is not like the 1:20:33.479 --> 1:20:38.560 next in a pile of of people who tried to 1:20:38.600 --> 1:20:39.439 do this that did work. 1:20:42.160 --> 1:20:44.679 We've been having a lot of conversations around that because 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:48.200 there have been like public reflections happening about the final 1:20:48.600 --> 1:20:52.719 years of Ampled, So there's some reflections around those things 1:20:52.760 --> 1:20:55.040 that you can find those on the internet. Well, So 1:20:55.120 --> 1:20:56.920 the things I'm thinking about is you really have to 1:20:56.960 --> 1:21:00.200 think about what it means to be successful, and. 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:03.640 It's possible to claim that success is. 1:21:05.479 --> 1:21:08.479 You know, we go toe to toe with band camp 1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:12.000 or Patreon and we beat them at the game of 1:21:12.200 --> 1:21:15.600 being a VC funded startup, but we do it with 1:21:16.080 --> 1:21:21.360 volunteer and you know, grassroots money support. And I guess 1:21:21.439 --> 1:21:24.160 that is a way of thinking of success. It's not 1:21:24.280 --> 1:21:27.599 my personal way of thinking of success. So a way 1:21:27.640 --> 1:21:31.000 of thinking of success for me is more, you know, 1:21:31.120 --> 1:21:34.400 what's the end result? What are we hoping to do? 1:21:34.720 --> 1:21:38.840 What are we hoping to prefigure? Is it a more 1:21:39.000 --> 1:21:44.240 resilient community of people who are willing to go into 1:21:44.800 --> 1:21:47.240 a next step together? And in that way, I feel 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:51.959 like you could say that Resonate and Ampled they fizzled, 1:21:52.080 --> 1:21:55.920 but they both created spaces where people found each other 1:21:56.640 --> 1:21:59.960 and try to do the next thing. And I feel 1:22:00.200 --> 1:22:05.439 like that is very much the project of organizing prior 1:22:05.880 --> 1:22:11.479 to global socialism or whatever, is looking at what we 1:22:11.600 --> 1:22:17.240 did and learning from it and moving forward and trying again. 1:22:17.160 --> 1:22:20.680 Because we have to try again. And I feel like 1:22:20.760 --> 1:22:22.719 that is kind of the big picture question. 1:22:24.080 --> 1:22:26.720 We have some stuff in place that we're doing to 1:22:27.320 --> 1:22:30.559 make our project a bit more resilient. The consen stuff 1:22:30.680 --> 1:22:33.719 is part of that that Alex just described. Other parts 1:22:33.720 --> 1:22:36.559 of that is that we from the get go decided 1:22:36.760 --> 1:22:40.719 to do things publicly and bring in people as quickly 1:22:40.760 --> 1:22:44.760 as possible. I was the original programmer for the platform, 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:48.639 but in the past month I have been the honestly 1:22:48.720 --> 1:22:52.560 one of the smallest contributors to the platform. We've just 1:22:52.640 --> 1:22:57.920 had people stepping up in really incredible ways. Truly appreciate it. 1:22:58.439 --> 1:23:01.200 We've had people stepping in during this campaign. They've been 1:23:01.280 --> 1:23:06.200 making videos, they've been making art. Yeah, just the way 1:23:06.320 --> 1:23:09.040 that the community is stepping in and like wanting to 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:14.439 be a success, I think is this great example of 1:23:15.120 --> 1:23:18.479 what it is we can achieve if we if we're 1:23:18.560 --> 1:23:21.439 willing to, you know, let people into the process of 1:23:21.720 --> 1:23:24.400 doing that. There are a lot of questions there about 1:23:24.960 --> 1:23:28.600 who and what is doing that supporting, So that is 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:31.080 something that we're constantly checking in on. And I think 1:23:31.240 --> 1:23:34.360 also a metric of success is who is interacting with 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:39.040 the platform. Especially at Resonate, they did a really good 1:23:39.240 --> 1:23:42.680 job of bringing in the folks from Black Socialists of 1:23:42.720 --> 1:23:45.640 America were involved. There were people who had experience of 1:23:45.720 --> 1:23:48.680 cooperation Jackson who were involved. They did a really good 1:23:48.760 --> 1:23:51.760 job of diversifying the crowd of people who were not 1:23:52.000 --> 1:23:55.000 the standard I don't know, like open source tech people, 1:23:55.120 --> 1:23:58.879 which is a very white, you know, susset mail situation. 1:23:59.840 --> 1:24:04.800 And we we're trying to take from those and learn 1:24:04.880 --> 1:24:07.680 from those and thinking about what spaces we present ourselves in, 1:24:07.840 --> 1:24:13.120 like very intentional outreach to people to open up through 1:24:13.240 --> 1:24:19.200 cultural work, through conversations that are very local focused, to 1:24:19.320 --> 1:24:22.000 create space where we're talking about these things. 1:24:22.160 --> 1:24:25.559 Yeah, and I think for me, the idea of success 1:24:25.760 --> 1:24:29.680 too has to do with our needs getting met, you know, 1:24:29.960 --> 1:24:34.519 because Spotify is not meeting people's needs. Sorry, it's just 1:24:34.760 --> 1:24:36.760 not I mean, I guess it's meeting some people's needs, 1:24:36.840 --> 1:24:37.960 not meeting very many people. 1:24:38.200 --> 1:24:41.200 Yeah, yeah, I mean they just fired like not literally 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:44.200 their entire podcasting division, but an unbelievably large number of 1:24:44.240 --> 1:24:48.000 extreuely talented people got fired. Oh really and it yeah, 1:24:48.040 --> 1:24:48.840 it really sucks. 1:24:49.600 --> 1:24:50.519 That's really interesting. 1:24:50.960 --> 1:24:54.880 Yeah, you know, not operating at the same scale that 1:24:55.000 --> 1:25:00.120 Spotify is actually making it work matters, you know. And 1:25:00.439 --> 1:25:03.200 my hope is that that, first of all, that individual 1:25:03.320 --> 1:25:05.840 artists start to see this as a place that you know, 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:09.120 they can kind of get their crew around them, and 1:25:09.600 --> 1:25:12.880 that this can be a really a nice reliable source 1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:15.280 of additional income in their careers, help them pay rent. 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:17.160 Like when I was on Ampled, you know, I was 1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:19.320 bringing in like one hundred dollars a month or something 1:25:19.360 --> 1:25:22.160 like that, which isn't that much because I was doing 1:25:22.240 --> 1:25:23.920 it on a very small scale, but it made a 1:25:24.000 --> 1:25:26.080 big difference in my everyday life in terms of making 1:25:26.080 --> 1:25:28.280 space to make music a part of it. And I 1:25:28.400 --> 1:25:30.160 know how I lean into that a little bit more, 1:25:30.479 --> 1:25:34.000 there could be you know, a significant chunk of change 1:25:34.680 --> 1:25:38.000 coming through something like this to support just the ongoing 1:25:38.320 --> 1:25:40.360 paying rent while making art, which is the thing. 1:25:41.120 --> 1:25:43.120 On that note, another thing that I think is worth 1:25:43.200 --> 1:25:46.680 celebrating is that in the end, AMPLE basically made two 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:51.160 hundred and fifty thousand dollars available to musicians and did 1:25:51.520 --> 1:25:54.240 do what it was trying to do in a successful way. 1:25:55.280 --> 1:25:57.839 This is the other thing that I want to aspire 1:25:57.960 --> 1:26:02.200 to or you know, define success as, is our local 1:26:02.400 --> 1:26:07.400 scenes starting to work mirror low into the way that 1:26:07.920 --> 1:26:10.960 they operate. You know, can this be something that small 1:26:11.040 --> 1:26:17.000 independent labels, artists, collectives, niche genres in different places, you know, 1:26:17.439 --> 1:26:21.120 DIY spaces, whatever that this can actually be a useful 1:26:21.200 --> 1:26:23.559 tool to make the local space go and to make 1:26:23.640 --> 1:26:26.600 it easier for musicians to do what they do in 1:26:26.680 --> 1:26:30.040 community in real life, you know, at the level of 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:34.400 local and we'll see how that goes. We're just getting started, 1:26:34.479 --> 1:26:39.200 but I'm really optimistic and looking forward to continuing to 1:26:39.880 --> 1:26:41.240 pour energy into that. Yeah. 1:26:41.320 --> 1:26:43.960 So where can people go to find the platform and 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:46.400 support it if they're interested or get involved? 1:26:46.520 --> 1:26:49.519 Yeah, so we're at mirrlow dot space. That's the website. 1:26:49.920 --> 1:26:51.800 If you go to mirrlow dot space, you'll see at 1:26:51.840 --> 1:26:54.679 the very top right now, just for a a couple 1:26:54.800 --> 1:26:57.880 more days, we've got a kickstarter going to kind of 1:26:57.960 --> 1:26:59.559 keep the lights on for the rest of the year. 1:27:00.080 --> 1:27:03.759 Be tremendously grateful for any support from anyone who's listening today. 1:27:03.840 --> 1:27:05.800 To get us, it's where I need to get over there, 1:27:06.479 --> 1:27:08.400 and also at the front page, and if you scroll 1:27:08.400 --> 1:27:10.840 down to the bottom, there's links to email us, find 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:13.960 us on GitHub, find our discord. There's plenty of ways 1:27:14.000 --> 1:27:15.800 to plug in and connect. Yeah. 1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:18.680 Yeah, So hoping this all works for the best, and 1:27:18.800 --> 1:27:22.120 hoping that there's a way for artists to create music 1:27:22.560 --> 1:27:25.640 in ways that are sustainable and not unbelievably exploitative. 1:27:25.840 --> 1:27:27.599 Yeah, thanks so much for having us, man, it's been 1:27:28.320 --> 1:27:29.040 truly a pleasure. 1:27:29.600 --> 1:27:30.559 Yeah, thank you so much. 1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:37.880 Maybe so Yeah, yeah, and this has been It could 1:27:37.880 --> 1:27:41.439 happen here and find us in the usual places. Yeah. Go, 1:27:41.920 --> 1:27:43.800 I don't know, go make trouble for the people who 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:44.439 have what use it. 1:27:46.080 --> 1:27:48.400 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 1:27:48.640 --> 1:27:51.320 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 1:27:51.360 --> 1:27:53.560 cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:57.000 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 1:28:01.680 --> 1:28:04.880 Hi everyone, it's me James and I'm joined by Scheren today, 1:28:05.000 --> 1:28:08.400 and in a rare instance, we're not discussing something terrible 1:28:08.479 --> 1:28:10.200 and sad. It seems like most of the think is 1:28:10.240 --> 1:28:12.280 serene and I talk about. But it's a fun episode today, 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:12.800 isn't it, Shreen. 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:15.720 Yeah, I'm in a good mood, which is crazy to 1:28:15.800 --> 1:28:18.320 say these days. But I'm happy to be here. I 1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:21.439 love to be the podcast dummy. I love to have 1:28:21.600 --> 1:28:26.679 things talk to me at and I listen too. Yeah, exactly, 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:28.280 that's interest. 1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:32.719 You've chrished it. No, we won't be taking that again. 1:28:33.280 --> 1:28:35.280 Let's go from there. I don't want everyone to think 1:28:35.320 --> 1:28:38.160 Sharen is dummy. S Shereen, it's very intelligent. But we 1:28:38.280 --> 1:28:40.639 are making a podcast today about touching grass. A thing 1:28:41.200 --> 1:28:44.800 that some people need to do has become apparent. I've 1:28:44.840 --> 1:28:46.920 been on the internet. I think some people need to 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:50.080 go outside. Yeah, and even if you're not saying the 1:28:50.280 --> 1:28:53.719 stupidest shit imaginable on Twitter, I still think it's actually 1:28:53.760 --> 1:28:55.600 really good for you to go outside. Like I know, 1:28:55.960 --> 1:28:57.679 this seems to be an episode I do every couple 1:28:57.720 --> 1:29:00.200 of months, but every single time I have to go 1:29:00.280 --> 1:29:04.160 and do something traumatic or scary or upsetting for work, 1:29:04.320 --> 1:29:07.080 I just book a few days afterwards to be by 1:29:07.160 --> 1:29:10.240 myself in the mountains camp and sort of just not 1:29:10.400 --> 1:29:12.519 particularly like trying to do massive miles on a trail, 1:29:12.640 --> 1:29:15.160 just being outside. And I find it's the most healing 1:29:15.880 --> 1:29:18.360 thing for me. It's how I process all the things 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:20.519 that I have to see and hear about for work. 1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:25.360 And I want you to do that too, podcast listeners. Yeah, 1:29:25.520 --> 1:29:26.720 and Serene, I want Sreen to do it. 1:29:26.840 --> 1:29:30.360 Nature is healing, it is, and that makes sense that 1:29:30.600 --> 1:29:32.679 that's where you go. It makes total sense. 1:29:33.880 --> 1:29:37.760 Yeah, I think you have to be comfortable, like you know, 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:41.439 if you're scared sleeping alone outside in a tent by yourself. Right, Yeah, 1:29:41.520 --> 1:29:43.000 it's not going to be healing for you. And I 1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:44.880 can see that. I'm a white dude, right, and I 1:29:45.000 --> 1:29:46.679 go through the outdoors just like I go through everywhere 1:29:46.720 --> 1:29:51.000 else's white du You know that means that something different experiences. Yes, yes, yeah, 1:29:51.080 --> 1:29:53.960 we have. That's why social is you to think anyway. 1:29:54.160 --> 1:29:56.400 I want to talk today just about hiking or walking 1:29:56.600 --> 1:29:59.760 or rambling or hillwalking or you know, you could call 1:29:59.800 --> 1:30:02.200 it any of the things that you want, just because 1:30:02.280 --> 1:30:05.040 I think it's probably the most successible way to get 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:08.200 outside for most people. Right, Like I could talk about cycling. 1:30:08.280 --> 1:30:10.720 It's been a lot of my life cycling. It's expensive 1:30:10.880 --> 1:30:12.040 and confusing for people. 1:30:12.160 --> 1:30:14.760 So in your equipment, you know, hiking, you just need 1:30:14.840 --> 1:30:15.960 to get outside. 1:30:16.080 --> 1:30:19.040 Yeah, exactly, like you probably if you're able to move 1:30:19.160 --> 1:30:22.320 under your own power now, then you can probably go 1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:23.880 for a walk. I'm going to talk about equipment in 1:30:23.920 --> 1:30:26.200 the back half, but I think if you're a lot 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:27.719 of people seem to have a lot of questions about 1:30:27.720 --> 1:30:29.760 backpacking equipment, so we'll cover that. But yeah, I think 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:34.080 for most people, just like setting the intention of going 1:30:34.160 --> 1:30:37.280 for a walk would be a massively beneficial thing. So 1:30:37.400 --> 1:30:38.800 I want to encourage you to do that to start 1:30:38.840 --> 1:30:41.400 of summer. If you're in the northern hemisphere, if you're 1:30:41.400 --> 1:30:43.800 in the southern hemisphere, it's a start of winter, you know, 1:30:44.040 --> 1:30:46.760 you can still get out there. And so to start 1:30:46.800 --> 1:30:49.479 off with, I wanted to talk about finding a route, 1:30:49.600 --> 1:30:52.880 finding a place, picking a route to go hiking. Did 1:30:52.960 --> 1:30:54.320 you go hiking very much? I actually do. 1:30:54.560 --> 1:30:57.000 I do like a hike. I like a hike. I've 1:30:57.040 --> 1:30:59.560 gone backpacking once and I really liked it. 1:31:00.400 --> 1:31:01.280 Where did you go back back? 1:31:01.560 --> 1:31:06.599 Oh high? Oh yeah wow, Yeah, that's a cute little place. 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:10.120 But it was so hot and I almost passed out. 1:31:10.200 --> 1:31:11.560 I should have done it in a different day. We 1:31:11.600 --> 1:31:13.720 should have done it a different day. But I do 1:31:13.880 --> 1:31:16.479 love to hike. I like to be outside. I'm not 1:31:16.680 --> 1:31:19.840 like the most outdoors a person. I wish I knew 1:31:19.840 --> 1:31:21.800 how like how to make a fire or something, or 1:31:21.920 --> 1:31:23.160 like I wish I was like a scout. 1:31:24.080 --> 1:31:25.439 There's lots of shit that you don't want to be 1:31:25.479 --> 1:31:27.280 involved within the scouting movement surin. 1:31:27.360 --> 1:31:28.479 Oh really, okay, I take that back. 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:31.240 Yeah yeah yeah, probably inducing behind the bus just such 1:31:31.600 --> 1:31:32.000 a scout. 1:31:32.080 --> 1:31:33.479 Okay, I will do that. 1:31:34.200 --> 1:31:34.560 I did not. 1:31:34.720 --> 1:31:37.200 But what I mean is like I really like being outside, 1:31:37.479 --> 1:31:40.479 and I have like the bare minimum of like equipment 1:31:40.520 --> 1:31:42.880 that I need for that kind of stuff. I used 1:31:42.880 --> 1:31:45.840 to get really intimidated that I didn't know as much 1:31:45.880 --> 1:31:47.920 as I thought other people did. But I don't think 1:31:47.920 --> 1:31:49.439 anyone knows as much as they think they do. 1:31:49.920 --> 1:31:50.519 Absolutely no. 1:31:50.600 --> 1:31:51.760 Yeah, so that made me feel better. 1:31:52.280 --> 1:31:55.760 Yeah, And like the outdoors are super humbling in that sense, right, 1:31:55.880 --> 1:31:58.360 Like you think you know it all, you don't, and 1:31:58.479 --> 1:32:00.920 at some point you'll get humbled or so it's good 1:32:00.960 --> 1:32:03.080 to always have a bit of respect, Yeah, for the 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:05.519 outdoors and mother nature. I've seen some people who do 1:32:05.640 --> 1:32:09.559 not that it can end messily. Seen some people who 1:32:09.640 --> 1:32:11.720 learn to climb on YouTube really get to grips with 1:32:11.800 --> 1:32:14.000 YouTube not being the same as going outside. I guess 1:32:14.040 --> 1:32:16.160 if I'm starting off, if you're picking a route, and 1:32:16.560 --> 1:32:18.280 I think probably the best way to do it is 1:32:18.400 --> 1:32:22.320 I discovered this recently. Lots of these modern smartphones have 1:32:22.439 --> 1:32:25.160 a step counter in them. Even if you don't have 1:32:25.240 --> 1:32:27.840 a fancy watch that count steps, your phone does it 1:32:27.960 --> 1:32:31.240 for you. I think that's a really good way of ascertaining, 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:33.519 like how far you walk in a regular day, right, 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:35.960 I was thinking about, like how far to most people walk? 1:32:36.000 --> 1:32:36.280 I don't know. 1:32:36.320 --> 1:32:37.519 I know a fun fact about me. 1:32:38.479 --> 1:32:39.400 I would love to usering. 1:32:39.520 --> 1:32:44.400 I purposely have never ever opened that app or activated 1:32:44.479 --> 1:32:47.000 it to know how many steps I walk because I 1:32:47.200 --> 1:32:49.760 know myself and I know I would get like hyper 1:32:49.840 --> 1:32:52.360 fixated on it, and I did not want to be 1:32:52.400 --> 1:32:54.120 confronted with the days that I just sit on my 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:56.880 ass all day, you know, And so I have never 1:32:57.000 --> 1:32:58.200 ever active app. 1:32:59.240 --> 1:32:59.960 That's a great stree. 1:33:00.640 --> 1:33:02.519 I'm proud of you for knowing that that wouldn't be 1:33:02.560 --> 1:33:04.600 good for you. I mean, I just know myself it 1:33:04.600 --> 1:33:06.080 wouldn't be a good thing for me. I think it's 1:33:06.080 --> 1:33:07.400 a good thing for a lot of people to like 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:11.720 get them motivated and stuff, but sometimes it's also a 1:33:11.800 --> 1:33:13.599 negative to being too focused on the numbers. 1:33:13.920 --> 1:33:17.320 And yeah, totally, especially like if you're someone who's had 1:33:17.360 --> 1:33:19.760 like a relationship with exercise, it wasn't healthy for you before. 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:21.320 Yeah, I guess that's also part of it too. That 1:33:21.479 --> 1:33:25.320 was my experience. I'm sorry, are you are the things 1:33:25.360 --> 1:33:26.479 to add it just happened? 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:30.840 Yeah, okay, Yeah, I'm glad that you have a good 1:33:30.840 --> 1:33:34.400 relationship with it now. But yeah, for people who you know, 1:33:34.640 --> 1:33:36.639 if that's not for you, that's not for you. I'll 1:33:36.640 --> 1:33:36.920 say that. 1:33:37.040 --> 1:33:38.360 But I just think it's a fun fact. I don't 1:33:38.360 --> 1:33:40.439 know anyone else that has not. Like I'm terrified of 1:33:40.479 --> 1:33:42.720 the app. I have not even opened it. When you 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:44.840 go to my health app, it says welcome, like it 1:33:44.880 --> 1:33:47.360 doesn't even you know what I mean, Like it's not Yeah. 1:33:47.240 --> 1:33:49.200 I did think you've got a brand new phone. I 1:33:49.320 --> 1:33:51.800 was going to suggest to all trails because A it's 1:33:51.840 --> 1:33:53.680 got a very complete list of trails, and B I 1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:57.960 noticed I had a wheelchair for yeah, I was looking 1:33:58.000 --> 1:34:00.439 for wheelchair accessible trails for someone the other day. You 1:34:00.479 --> 1:34:02.800 can just filter on all trails, like you can find 1:34:02.800 --> 1:34:05.320 the ones that don't have steps or excessive rocks or something. 1:34:05.439 --> 1:34:07.519 So like, if that's something you're looking for, I think 1:34:07.520 --> 1:34:11.320 that could be really handy. And other little tips for 1:34:11.479 --> 1:34:13.960 picking your root. If you try and set off early, A, 1:34:14.520 --> 1:34:17.400 you're gonna not deal with big crowds of people. Be 1:34:18.120 --> 1:34:21.040 Animals are almost always more active at dawning dusk. I 1:34:21.120 --> 1:34:23.200 have been trail running a lot recently, and I love 1:34:23.320 --> 1:34:25.880 to trail run right when the sun's coming up. It 1:34:26.040 --> 1:34:28.880 just feels like it's nice and I see little animals, 1:34:29.600 --> 1:34:31.759 don't see as many snakes. I like to see a snake. 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:33.880 The weather is probably like the best it's going to 1:34:33.960 --> 1:34:37.320 be that day. Yeah, yeah, exactly, especially as it gets hotter. 1:34:37.479 --> 1:34:40.160 Right like if you're not necessarily doing a lot of 1:34:40.240 --> 1:34:42.200 exercise right now, and then you go for you know, 1:34:42.280 --> 1:34:43.720 even a short hike in the middle of the day 1:34:43.720 --> 1:34:46.360 on a hot day, you can put yourself in the box. 1:34:46.880 --> 1:34:49.160 And like I think I've heard before that like the 1:34:49.400 --> 1:34:52.360 vast majority of trail rescues are like on front country trails, 1:34:52.840 --> 1:34:53.679 like five or ten mins. 1:34:53.680 --> 1:34:56.559 I believe that people get confident. 1:34:57.000 --> 1:34:59.120 I guess that in mind. If you're heading out in 1:34:59.120 --> 1:35:02.320 a little front country I would say some things to 1:35:02.400 --> 1:35:05.639 bring would be we'll go over like equipment, boots, stuff 1:35:05.680 --> 1:35:07.280 like that. If you if you're like getting more into it, 1:35:07.439 --> 1:35:10.280 but heading out on a little first hike. If as 1:35:10.280 --> 1:35:12.439 long as you have a bag with some water and 1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:14.960 a phone and some shoes that you like to wear 1:35:15.000 --> 1:35:17.400 that they're comfortable for you, I think you'll be fine. 1:35:18.040 --> 1:35:21.040 And I think they bring a snack. Snack is always 1:35:21.080 --> 1:35:22.360 a good thing to have. It's nice to have a 1:35:22.400 --> 1:35:29.599 little trail snack at yeah, I love a good rectangular food. 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:33.800 But yeah, if you don't have water, that's like fourth 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:37.160 of July last year, someone didn't bring water for their dog, 1:35:37.680 --> 1:35:41.200 and I remember their dog was in like severe Yeah, no, 1:35:41.360 --> 1:35:43.360 it was one of the stupider things. But I can't 1:35:43.439 --> 1:35:45.360 think of a year here where I haven't been running 1:35:45.439 --> 1:35:47.479 or riding on trails and seeing someone forget to bring 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:49.240 water for their dog terrible. I hate that. 1:35:49.720 --> 1:35:52.200 Yeah, I don't like I see like sometimes there's like 1:35:52.400 --> 1:35:57.160 a communal stops for pets, but you can't count on those, 1:35:57.360 --> 1:35:57.559 you know. 1:35:58.479 --> 1:36:01.280 Yeah, totally. I don't really count any of those things working, 1:36:01.479 --> 1:36:03.880 you know, like water fountains, Like, don't be reliant up 1:36:03.960 --> 1:36:07.400 on a water fountain, take a little water bottle. You'll 1:36:07.439 --> 1:36:09.920 be so much happier. And if you want to find 1:36:10.000 --> 1:36:12.160 people to hike with, I've had pretty good luck with 1:36:12.240 --> 1:36:15.479 a meetup app. I used to climb by some people 1:36:15.520 --> 1:36:19.160 from meet up here in San Diego, and like climbings 1:36:19.160 --> 1:36:23.800 are fairly like high trust endeavor if someone's belaying you right. 1:36:24.000 --> 1:36:25.879 I definitely met some people there who are very capable 1:36:25.920 --> 1:36:28.320 and we had a great time. Climbing outside. Meetup seems 1:36:28.320 --> 1:36:30.360 to be pretty good for that kind of stuff. ARII 1:36:30.640 --> 1:36:34.040 also often has free like I'll just take you out 1:36:34.040 --> 1:36:36.600 for a hike hiking sessions, and I know they have 1:36:36.840 --> 1:36:41.000 like yeah, yeah I can. Yeah, they they seem nice. 1:36:41.120 --> 1:36:45.280 They have like fem ones that women transferm people can 1:36:45.360 --> 1:36:48.160 go and sistudes can't go, which is fine, you know, 1:36:48.360 --> 1:36:50.519 like it's probably a nice thing for some people feel 1:36:50.520 --> 1:36:52.880 a little safer and more comfortable there. They have one, 1:36:52.960 --> 1:36:55.439 so they're just open for everyone. They think that's a 1:36:55.520 --> 1:36:58.600 dude's only hike, which is also fine. So those are 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:01.000 some places to meet people. I think it's always nice 1:37:01.000 --> 1:37:03.360 to go with someone, especially if you don't feel confident 1:37:03.520 --> 1:37:06.000 or you don't feel like the outdoors are a place 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:08.680 where you're like comfortable. It's nice to go with even 1:37:08.720 --> 1:37:11.360 if it's someone who has the same degree of knowledge 1:37:11.400 --> 1:37:14.120 and background in it as you. Like, they can help 1:37:14.200 --> 1:37:15.320 you rationalize your fears. 1:37:15.560 --> 1:37:18.720 Yeah, when you're alone and like you get lost or 1:37:18.800 --> 1:37:23.080 you feel panic, it's so much worse than if you 1:37:23.120 --> 1:37:25.320 had like a friend with you. It only happened to 1:37:25.360 --> 1:37:27.280 me once and I was on rooms, so but I 1:37:27.320 --> 1:37:29.280 won't get into that, but it was scary. 1:37:32.760 --> 1:37:35.639 Yeah, then maybe you'd leave those a home if you're 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:38.640 going out first tike maybe. 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:42.080 Yeah, No, you don't need those if you're by yourself, especially, 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:44.800 Just take it from me. Please, don't go on a 1:37:44.880 --> 1:37:51.080 mountain and take too many things and panic the whole 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:52.000 way home. 1:37:55.200 --> 1:37:56.679 I want to hear this story afterwards. 1:37:57.000 --> 1:38:00.519 It was my thirtieth birthday in twenty twenty, so everything 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:03.679 was closed. I tried to go and touch grass games 1:38:04.040 --> 1:38:05.160 and I had. 1:38:09.240 --> 1:38:11.120 You nearly touched it with your face as you fell 1:38:11.200 --> 1:38:13.839 down the mountain on your shroom trip. Yeah, your thirtiest 1:38:13.840 --> 1:38:14.280 beft is. 1:38:14.360 --> 1:38:17.120 Yeah, it was crisis, I suppose anyway. 1:38:17.160 --> 1:38:19.679 Sorry, yeah, unreeling, Yeah, that's okay. 1:38:20.240 --> 1:38:22.680 You know shrims. Do you know what will not make 1:38:22.760 --> 1:38:24.639 you have an existential crisis on top of the mountain 1:38:24.680 --> 1:38:26.439 on your own in the middle of a pandemic? Please 1:38:26.520 --> 1:38:30.439 tell me it is the products and services that support 1:38:30.479 --> 1:38:33.559 this show. Unless we get a shroom sad, I would 1:38:33.600 --> 1:38:36.920 love that the stream will read your shroom sad. If 1:38:36.920 --> 1:38:40.320 you're in the industry, please reach out her Twitter is 1:38:40.360 --> 1:38:47.599 at I write. Okay, all right, we're back in fact 1:38:47.680 --> 1:38:52.200 all the psilocybin. Maybe it's still illegal. 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:54.519 I don't think they are. Yeah, they're in Oregon. 1:38:54.600 --> 1:38:58.800 They are Yeah, well there you go, right, So I'm 1:38:58.840 --> 1:39:00.719 interested to know what questions you had before you decided 1:39:00.760 --> 1:39:02.960 to embark on your hiking lifestyle or is something you've 1:39:02.960 --> 1:39:03.400 always done. 1:39:03.479 --> 1:39:07.240 I mean my family and I we never really did 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:09.439 outdoorsy stuff, so it was something I did when I 1:39:09.560 --> 1:39:11.760 was like finishing high school. I started to be like, wow, 1:39:11.880 --> 1:39:14.280 I live in a place where I can go hiking, 1:39:14.360 --> 1:39:16.600 and I've never done this before. So it was a 1:39:16.680 --> 1:39:19.040 learning curve. But I started when I was like seventeen 1:39:19.560 --> 1:39:21.560 and I got my entire family to go hiking with 1:39:21.680 --> 1:39:22.479 me for the first time. 1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:23.360 Yeah. 1:39:25.800 --> 1:39:27.320 It was also when I was introducing my mom to 1:39:27.400 --> 1:39:29.800 like Zoomba. That was the vibe back then. So I 1:39:29.920 --> 1:39:33.200 was trying to get active. But I think the most 1:39:33.240 --> 1:39:37.439 important things are I mean, I'm a big skincare person. 1:39:37.520 --> 1:39:41.640 I think some protection cannot be understated, especially if you 1:39:42.760 --> 1:39:44.439 are hiking in the middle of the day, like when 1:39:44.439 --> 1:39:47.280 the sun is at its highest point. You need sunscreen 1:39:47.520 --> 1:39:51.080 and a hat. There is like some protective clothing even 1:39:51.160 --> 1:39:54.320 that could come in handy, but at the bare minimum, 1:39:54.400 --> 1:39:56.280 you need a good hat. Yeah, like not even a 1:39:56.400 --> 1:39:59.400 cat I like those those fishermen looking hats. You got 1:39:59.520 --> 1:40:01.719 to get the whole circumference. But a cap is fine. 1:40:01.760 --> 1:40:04.160 A cap will do. I think that's the most important 1:40:04.200 --> 1:40:05.840 little accessory for me. 1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:08.400 It's a hat. I have one of those, like felted 1:40:08.439 --> 1:40:09.000 wool hats. 1:40:09.120 --> 1:40:10.280 Nice. Don't they get hot? 1:40:12.000 --> 1:40:12.040 No? 1:40:12.360 --> 1:40:12.720 Not really. 1:40:12.840 --> 1:40:15.120 The wool breeze pretty well. Like it was what I 1:40:15.280 --> 1:40:17.080 was out at the body yesterday helping out and it 1:40:17.160 --> 1:40:19.280 was like a nineteen I was wearing it. It was fine, 1:40:19.720 --> 1:40:21.599 and it's wool so you can dip in the water 1:40:21.760 --> 1:40:26.240 and it gets wet. Yeah, I like one of those. Yeah. 1:40:26.360 --> 1:40:28.800 I actually have a little list of of equipment or 1:40:28.840 --> 1:40:31.439 clothing stuff which maybe I could go over. It seems 1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:34.519 like the vast majority of the questions I get people 1:40:34.640 --> 1:40:36.120 like to dm me the question, which is great, by 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:37.600 the way, I do like it when people ask me 1:40:37.680 --> 1:40:41.920 for like how can I no bad question? Because no, 1:40:42.160 --> 1:40:44.479 there aren't. And like a lot of my career as 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:48.559 a journalist, like earlier on was doing outdoor media and like, yeah, 1:40:48.600 --> 1:40:51.320 the outdoor media has gone to complete shit, and you know, 1:40:51.360 --> 1:40:54.120 you can't write anything. It's an advertorial now just actually 1:40:54.240 --> 1:40:57.120 like just to if you are looking to buy something, 1:40:57.960 --> 1:41:00.400 and it is basically any product with you read on 1:41:00.439 --> 1:41:03.400 the Internet. I understand that the vast majority of those 1:41:03.840 --> 1:41:06.160 will only be products that pay a certain percentage back 1:41:06.200 --> 1:41:08.200 to the website that refers you to them, and so 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:11.880 then inherently causes a bias against products which don't do that. 1:41:12.400 --> 1:41:14.880 An editor at Big Men's Magazine suggested that I write 1:41:14.880 --> 1:41:16.800 some reviews about the stuff that I'd never seen. 1:41:17.160 --> 1:41:18.439 They weren't going to send them to you. 1:41:19.680 --> 1:41:21.800 Well, the company would have done, but the editor wanted 1:41:21.880 --> 1:41:25.400 the piece in like fifteen miles, which, like, I know, 1:41:25.520 --> 1:41:27.240 I used to do lots of reviews and buy some stuff, 1:41:27.240 --> 1:41:28.960 and I take it pretty seriously. And because it's a 1:41:29.000 --> 1:41:29.559 lot of someone. 1:41:29.600 --> 1:41:31.080 I look at those reviews all the time, I have 1:41:31.200 --> 1:41:33.519 to weed out the ones I think are like sponsored. 1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:36.960 But I really I really like reviews. Yes, I go 1:41:37.040 --> 1:41:38.960 on Reddit a lot to see what people think, like 1:41:39.040 --> 1:41:40.559 their own experience. 1:41:40.479 --> 1:41:42.560 Redd It's a great place. So I've said that like universally, 1:41:42.680 --> 1:41:45.200 but I do mean with respect to Yeah. 1:41:45.080 --> 1:41:48.160 It's a place where you can find more anecdotal experience 1:41:48.240 --> 1:41:52.000 with stuff versus I don't know, Amazon review. 1:41:52.960 --> 1:41:55.240 Yeah, there are some whoppers on Reddit who in any 1:41:55.320 --> 1:41:57.599 aspect to overestimate their insight into things. But you'll find 1:41:57.680 --> 1:42:00.360 anyone on the internet. So yeah, I'm going to go 1:42:00.439 --> 1:42:03.880 through some different clothing items, stuff I like and stuff 1:42:03.960 --> 1:42:07.200 that I think you can probably find cheap and hopefully 1:42:07.240 --> 1:42:09.559 that will help people kind of especially if you're thinking 1:42:09.640 --> 1:42:13.800 of backpacking. It can be very intimidating and expensive, I think. 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:16.519 And at the start of the PCT almost once a week, 1:42:16.640 --> 1:42:18.439 right helping out the border, that's one of the areas 1:42:18.439 --> 1:42:20.920 where people cross and I see people with thousands of 1:42:21.040 --> 1:42:23.720 dollars of gear that is all brand new, and I 1:42:23.800 --> 1:42:25.760 know it can be pretty intimidating, but like, you don't 1:42:25.800 --> 1:42:27.800 have to start there, so there's always stuff you have 1:42:27.880 --> 1:42:30.560 a home. Maybe we'll do one on camping later in 1:42:30.640 --> 1:42:35.360 the summer. So you get a hat, any particular hat preferences, Sharen, I. 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:38.320 Don't know the brands, honestly, I don't know. And unless 1:42:38.320 --> 1:42:40.880 like someone recommended this brand, use this, like my shoes 1:42:40.960 --> 1:42:46.920 are I think we talked about this before Solomon No, yes, 1:42:47.080 --> 1:42:51.519 is that a brand? Yeah, Salmon, And I was like, 1:42:51.560 --> 1:42:55.920 that's a sad Yeah. Yeah, I think you can find 1:42:56.040 --> 1:42:58.920 really cheap hats that are protective. You know, I don't 1:42:58.920 --> 1:43:01.400 think you need a big brand for a hat as 1:43:01.439 --> 1:43:04.040 long as it like covers your head in your face. 1:43:04.240 --> 1:43:06.840 Yeah, yeah, totally. I trail run all the time in 1:43:06.880 --> 1:43:08.640 a hat I got free like five years ago. 1:43:08.680 --> 1:43:10.479 If anything, I think it's better to have things you 1:43:10.520 --> 1:43:13.360 don't care about getting dirty or ruined, you know, because 1:43:13.400 --> 1:43:14.120 you're sure. 1:43:15.520 --> 1:43:18.280 I've noticed a lot of outdoor stuff really kind of 1:43:18.800 --> 1:43:21.479 moving towards streetwear. There's this thing that I learned about 1:43:21.479 --> 1:43:27.160 recently called gorp core, which is my okay, the test. 1:43:27.400 --> 1:43:28.240 I think it's cute. 1:43:31.080 --> 1:43:35.360 Okay, this is going to be the point of disagreement. 1:43:35.680 --> 1:43:37.639 People like it when the hosts disagree on podcasts. 1:43:37.880 --> 1:43:39.160 How do you define gorp core? 1:43:40.080 --> 1:43:43.880 It's people wearing hiking stuff to go around town, which 1:43:43.920 --> 1:43:45.599 is fine. I do that all the time. I dress 1:43:45.760 --> 1:43:48.720 like a man in ARII catalog. But like, why are 1:43:48.760 --> 1:43:51.920 you making it fashion? And then why have you stolen 1:43:52.600 --> 1:43:55.559 my brands who used to make reliable outdoor gear. 1:43:55.600 --> 1:44:00.200 And now I enread that assessment, I will say, I 1:44:00.240 --> 1:44:02.560 don't think wearing hiking stuff is necessary, but I do 1:44:02.920 --> 1:44:05.560 like to look like I'm going on a safari, you know. 1:44:05.880 --> 1:44:08.840 I like that character for me. 1:44:09.400 --> 1:44:12.080 Do you have like a pith helmet and like a No, 1:44:12.320 --> 1:44:14.520 it's just more it's like fascinating. 1:44:14.120 --> 1:44:16.280 Like shorts that are meant to be hiked in are 1:44:16.439 --> 1:44:18.760 longer usually, and I just think they look better than 1:44:19.040 --> 1:44:20.720 other shorts and you can just wear that and like 1:44:20.800 --> 1:44:22.960 a button down shirt with some leaves on it, it 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:25.519 looks like I'm going on a safari, but I'm just 1:44:25.640 --> 1:44:26.479 walking around town. 1:44:28.400 --> 1:44:31.960 This this vision of like nineteen twenty sharen, you know, 1:44:32.120 --> 1:44:35.599 like a carriage seeing a lion. 1:44:36.080 --> 1:44:39.080 But yeah, gorf core is it's becoming more and more trendy. 1:44:39.120 --> 1:44:41.200 And I will say that you're you're right about things 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:44.120 being more expensive because of it, because it shouldn't be 1:44:44.200 --> 1:44:46.320 so expensive to be prepared to go on a hike. 1:44:46.960 --> 1:44:49.040 Yeah, and like so like for most of the stuff 1:44:49.080 --> 1:44:51.880 I look for when I'm hiking, a lot of brands 1:44:51.920 --> 1:44:56.120 I go to, like Outdoor Research, Mountain Hardware. I'll list 1:44:56.200 --> 1:44:59.120 to other stuff as we go through, but like Oarctics 1:44:59.120 --> 1:45:01.680 and Patagonia seem to like taken off in price and 1:45:01.880 --> 1:45:05.680 like decoupled from other stuff which literally uses the same materials. Right, 1:45:05.920 --> 1:45:07.679 One of the things I would suggest if you're trying 1:45:07.720 --> 1:45:10.679 to buy outdoor gerries, look at the materials used, because 1:45:10.880 --> 1:45:12.720 you know you might find the same material used in 1:45:12.760 --> 1:45:15.800 another piece somewhere else, and it might cost less, right 1:45:15.960 --> 1:45:19.400 if it doesn't have that like gorp core appeal. If 1:45:19.439 --> 1:45:21.040 I just go through some stuff I like really quickly. 1:45:21.120 --> 1:45:23.439 I like to wear buttonup shirts when I hike. Wow, 1:45:23.560 --> 1:45:25.759 Forten a whole piece about this. It's like two thousand 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:26.960 words and it sits on backpack. 1:45:27.360 --> 1:45:30.160 So what's the reason A very shortened version of the reason. 1:45:30.640 --> 1:45:33.640 They're nice. They cover your neck a bit better. They 1:45:33.760 --> 1:45:35.880 have buttons so you can vent your chest if you 1:45:35.960 --> 1:45:41.479 need to get some extra ventilation. Yeah, you can roll 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:44.080 up the sleeves. You can roll down the sleeves. That 1:45:44.160 --> 1:45:46.160 there was very practical. When I met the president of 1:45:46.200 --> 1:45:48.320 the Marshall Islands, like one of my little hiking buttonup 1:45:48.360 --> 1:45:50.200 shirts because I hadn't been expected to be formal, and 1:45:50.240 --> 1:45:51.880 I put on a little tie that they gave me 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:52.800 and I went. 1:45:53.439 --> 1:45:56.519 I will say I have worn my button down hiking 1:45:56.600 --> 1:45:59.920 shirts out and about town because I think they look 1:46:01.000 --> 1:46:01.759 so oops. 1:46:02.520 --> 1:46:06.400 Yeah, I agree with you, Srian, I think they look cute. 1:46:06.600 --> 1:46:08.560 You can look cute in them. If you're looking to 1:46:08.600 --> 1:46:11.440 buy some shirts. Outdoor Research has one called the Astroman, 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:14.840 which is amazing, Like it feels like you're not wearing 1:46:14.880 --> 1:46:17.759 a shirt, which is always the goal with shirt couu. 1:46:17.920 --> 1:46:20.120 The Hunting brand has one called the Tiburon, which is right. 1:46:20.240 --> 1:46:21.599 Are they going to be listed somewhere? 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:24.479 Yes, Like I did last time, I will make a 1:46:24.600 --> 1:46:27.679 two thousand words show description with links in it for people. 1:46:28.240 --> 1:46:30.439 I also like those T shirts, like running shirts. I 1:46:30.479 --> 1:46:32.760 don't really buy like hiking t shirts. I think often 1:46:32.840 --> 1:46:35.280 they're just cotton T shirts with a picture of a 1:46:35.360 --> 1:46:39.600 river on. But running shirts a nice gore wear, so 1:46:39.720 --> 1:46:44.080 that the people who make gortex there's also really good 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:46.880 value stuff. Actually it's worth looking at obviously, Like they're 1:46:46.920 --> 1:46:49.519 like in house, so they have all gortex waterproof stuff. 1:46:49.560 --> 1:46:51.680 But they have a shirt called the Contest which I 1:46:51.720 --> 1:46:54.840 always trail running this morning. It's a pretty nice shirt 1:46:55.120 --> 1:46:58.560 and gets hot here in San Diego. And like, I 1:46:58.600 --> 1:47:00.000 don't want to be the guy running with the shit 1:47:00.040 --> 1:47:04.160 out of and so. And also I'm British, so like 1:47:04.280 --> 1:47:07.040 me and the sun are in a constant state of disagreement. 1:47:08.080 --> 1:47:10.600 I'm not a skinware person. Utreen. I didn't believe in 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:15.120 some to me I do now. I do now, I 1:47:15.240 --> 1:47:17.840 do now. Until my early thirties, I thought that it 1:47:17.920 --> 1:47:20.519 was stopping my skin breathing and affecting my performance as 1:47:20.560 --> 1:47:24.519 a big races that you've cherished changed. Yeah, I never 1:47:24.600 --> 1:47:27.400 had skin on my well like most. 1:47:27.240 --> 1:47:28.719 Of you thought on screen was bad. 1:47:30.520 --> 1:47:33.320 When you have to understand that everything about pro cycling 1:47:33.479 --> 1:47:36.240 is like lies the older people tell you so, like 1:47:36.560 --> 1:47:38.400 when I was coming up in cycling, it was like 1:47:38.479 --> 1:47:41.080 the very end of the like people who had trained 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:44.960 in East Germany, like before the fall of the Berlin War, right, 1:47:45.080 --> 1:47:48.439 and they had all these bullshit things like I had 1:47:48.479 --> 1:47:50.799 a team director who would make us eat fast animals 1:47:50.880 --> 1:47:53.240 because he thought that would turn us into fasters. 1:47:53.880 --> 1:47:58.679 Like that's a good one, no, I mean the even 1:47:58.760 --> 1:48:03.040 now there is a little subculture of like, don't wear sunscreen. 1:48:03.080 --> 1:48:04.720 The sun is good for you. You should just like 1:48:05.120 --> 1:48:08.919 vitamin D. But y'all know, wear sunscreen, reapply the sunscreen. 1:48:09.080 --> 1:48:12.679 I should make a skincare episode. I'm obsessed with this stuff. 1:48:12.880 --> 1:48:15.800 And sunscreen is so important it is. 1:48:15.960 --> 1:48:18.160 You can get much better sunscreen outside the US. 1:48:18.120 --> 1:48:21.799 Yeah, I do. I use Korean sunscreen. Korean sunscreen is great, Okay. 1:48:21.760 --> 1:48:26.240 Great, Okay. I get European sunscreen when I'm in the airport. 1:48:25.920 --> 1:48:30.200 But also both the European sunscreens and Asian sunscreens. They're 1:48:30.360 --> 1:48:33.040 formulated so much differently than the ones in the US. 1:48:33.160 --> 1:48:37.840 I feel like there are certain things that are they're different. 1:48:38.040 --> 1:48:38.400 I don't know. 1:48:38.720 --> 1:48:39.720 America is fucking up. 1:48:40.680 --> 1:48:44.479 It's because the active ingredients, haven't the FDA. Yeah, okay, yeah, 1:48:45.120 --> 1:48:48.240 sunscreen conspiracy divation over sharen. Maybe we should take an 1:48:48.280 --> 1:48:51.040 advertising break here in case we land the Koreans. 1:48:51.080 --> 1:48:53.560 Oh, okay, advertising, Yeah, let's do it. I want to 1:48:53.600 --> 1:48:56.680 get shrooms and Korean sunscreen under my advertising bill. That 1:48:56.680 --> 1:48:58.520 would be great. That's my entire personality. 1:49:04.439 --> 1:49:06.360 All Right, we're back. We hope you enjoyed that advert 1:49:06.400 --> 1:49:09.479 for sund screen. I want to talk about trousers just 1:49:09.600 --> 1:49:12.680 in general, but also with reference to hiking. Sometimes I 1:49:12.760 --> 1:49:14.560 go out and I drop water for people so that 1:49:14.680 --> 1:49:17.240 they don't die in the desert. And that's something that 1:49:17.479 --> 1:49:19.600 I think is one of the coolest fucking things that 1:49:19.680 --> 1:49:21.600 you can do if you live near the border, and 1:49:21.760 --> 1:49:24.360 everyone who does it is a massive legend in my opinion. 1:49:24.560 --> 1:49:26.760 And even if you just come out once, you could 1:49:26.760 --> 1:49:30.040 save someone's life. And that's pretty fucking cool. And I 1:49:30.160 --> 1:49:32.360 want you, if you live near here, to feel like 1:49:32.439 --> 1:49:33.720 you can do that and if what's holding you back, 1:49:33.760 --> 1:49:37.000 if you don't know what to where or want backpack 1:49:37.040 --> 1:49:39.639 to get just like dm me on Twitter, but sometimes 1:49:39.680 --> 1:49:43.360 I come out in jeans. I would not suggest hiking 1:49:43.439 --> 1:49:46.760 in jeans. I would make jeans are great. I love jeans. 1:49:46.840 --> 1:49:48.720 I like to climb in jeans. I know Ian, the 1:49:48.800 --> 1:49:51.000 producer of this show, have some opinions about people who 1:49:51.000 --> 1:49:54.840 want to hear You haven't seen this, yeah, because Ian 1:49:54.840 --> 1:49:56.880 doesn't tweet very much, so I only found his Twitter 1:49:57.160 --> 1:49:59.559 like six months ago. One of his tweets with about 1:49:59.680 --> 1:50:04.160 why people because it's cool yan, No, no, no, it's 1:50:04.200 --> 1:50:07.600 not because you have to climb in jeans. Because you 1:50:07.760 --> 1:50:10.000 have to remind people that you were climbing before the 1:50:10.040 --> 1:50:13.240 fucking Alex Honold's film came out. And the way to 1:50:13.320 --> 1:50:15.000 do that is to be a dirt bag. And the 1:50:15.080 --> 1:50:17.719 way to do that is to go to a second 1:50:17.760 --> 1:50:20.280 hand shop and buy the ladies jeans, sort the stretch. 1:50:20.040 --> 1:50:22.320 The ones that are worn in because like from New genes, 1:50:22.320 --> 1:50:25.080 seem so uncomfortable to do anything in in my opinion. 1:50:25.320 --> 1:50:28.560 No, yeah, you want the stretchy fabric genes, you know, 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:31.120 the ones. It's okay if they're normal geens. Yeah, they've 1:50:31.120 --> 1:50:32.240 got to be worn in and then you cut them 1:50:32.240 --> 1:50:33.760 off a couple of inches above the ankle so you 1:50:33.800 --> 1:50:35.800 can see your feet, and you go climbing in those 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:39.559 and a cut off T shirt and you keep climbing grungy, 1:50:40.560 --> 1:50:44.439 because that's important. You can't be letting all the Have 1:50:44.560 --> 1:50:47.240 you seen this film Free Solo? People change it so yeah, 1:50:47.280 --> 1:50:49.360 oh gosh, yeah, that's one of the things that I 1:50:49.400 --> 1:50:50.240 will never back down. 1:50:50.680 --> 1:50:51.000 That run. 1:50:51.320 --> 1:50:54.080 Yeah, they use. The easiest route in my climbing gym 1:50:54.120 --> 1:50:56.200 for years was called Hey, dude, have you seen this film? 1:50:56.240 --> 1:50:58.120 It's called Free Solo, which I thought was great. 1:50:58.760 --> 1:50:59.000 Wow. 1:50:59.320 --> 1:51:01.760 Yeah, you can go climbing in jeans, but don't go 1:51:01.840 --> 1:51:04.160 hiking in jeans. They don't breathe very well, they don't 1:51:04.240 --> 1:51:07.840 move very well, they do chafe very well, and if 1:51:07.880 --> 1:51:12.479 they get wet, they suck. So you can get good 1:51:12.680 --> 1:51:17.320 like Niico or polyester or like even some with like 1:51:17.400 --> 1:51:20.439 spandex or like greens. So they stretch trousers pretty quickly. 1:51:20.560 --> 1:51:23.400 I really like Prana trousers that like the yoga brand. 1:51:23.520 --> 1:51:26.639 I'm wearing some right now. They have a one called 1:51:26.640 --> 1:51:28.760 the stretch Ion, and they have a men's model and 1:51:28.760 --> 1:51:31.360 a women's model, I think, and they're really cheap. They're 1:51:31.400 --> 1:51:34.240 always on sale. I really like those for like a 1:51:34.360 --> 1:51:37.479 cheap go to trouser hiking. Also there's a brand called 1:51:37.560 --> 1:51:41.479 True Work who make like technical work clothes, which I 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:43.640 like to wear if I'm like when we were constructing 1:51:43.840 --> 1:51:46.120 shelters a lot in Cucumber before the Border of Patrol 1:51:46.160 --> 1:51:48.560 tore them down. It's nice to have the little like 1:51:48.680 --> 1:51:50.960 extra pockets for your tools and for your pencil and 1:51:51.000 --> 1:51:52.960 your tape measure and stuff like that. I wear those 1:51:53.000 --> 1:51:55.960 for hiking as well, and they're kind of dual purpose. Generally, 1:51:56.000 --> 1:51:58.280 if you have trousers that are lightweight, that breathe well 1:51:58.320 --> 1:52:01.160 and have good flexibility, you're good to go. The next 1:52:01.200 --> 1:52:04.600 thing I have here is socks. People really fuck up 1:52:04.640 --> 1:52:08.360 with socks, and it seems like socks and footwear are 1:52:09.200 --> 1:52:11.880 areas where people really get themselves into trouble. Tried this 1:52:12.000 --> 1:52:14.400 out recently and the interest of journalism. Actually, there are 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:18.439 a couple of brands the things that I do just 1:52:18.640 --> 1:52:22.960 on a whim, darn Tough, you know, down tough sucks Serene, No, okay, 1:52:23.360 --> 1:52:26.040 now you do. They're a company and Vermont, who make 1:52:26.080 --> 1:52:26.599 good socks. 1:52:26.720 --> 1:52:29.439 Well, okay, I do want I need new hiking socks. 1:52:29.800 --> 1:52:33.560 Okay, good, yeah, sit down, Okay. Two brands that I 1:52:33.560 --> 1:52:37.120 would recommend are Features and Done Tough because they fit 1:52:37.240 --> 1:52:40.439 well there will so will still insulates when it's where 1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:44.439 it breethes. Well, it doesn't burn, but that's not a 1:52:44.479 --> 1:52:46.680 big concern for most of us hiking here. It's you're 1:52:46.680 --> 1:52:48.679 in a forest far I guess. But they'll find your feet. 1:52:49.040 --> 1:52:51.720 That'll be great. They also have lifetime warranties, which I 1:52:51.760 --> 1:52:54.760 think is really cool for for socks. Yeah, that's cool. 1:52:55.120 --> 1:52:55.320 Yeah. 1:52:55.600 --> 1:52:57.799 So I tested these out in the interest of journalism 1:52:57.920 --> 1:53:01.240 and feature in science and so yeah, I did a 1:53:01.960 --> 1:53:05.599 did a little double blind test, and I contacted Features 1:53:05.640 --> 1:53:08.040 and done toff and said, hi, I have worn holes 1:53:08.080 --> 1:53:10.280 through the front of my socks. And they said, no problems, 1:53:10.280 --> 1:53:11.840 send them back. And I sent them back and Features 1:53:11.920 --> 1:53:13.280 got me the socks. So what they do is they 1:53:13.320 --> 1:53:15.000 send you a coupon, then you go on their website 1:53:15.000 --> 1:53:16.720 and you order whatever socks you want. And it took 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:18.800 me about a week and I had new socks. Well 1:53:18.920 --> 1:53:20.479 down tuft took a little bit longer, but I had 1:53:20.520 --> 1:53:23.360 new socks. So like if you're a person who doesn't 1:53:23.360 --> 1:53:24.720 want to spend a lot of money, you can spend 1:53:24.720 --> 1:53:26.600 your money once and have socks for life, which I 1:53:26.640 --> 1:53:29.960 thought was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I heard 1:53:30.040 --> 1:53:31.640 that they had a good warranty. But then I was like, 1:53:31.680 --> 1:53:33.599 you know what, lots of brands say lots of bullshit, 1:53:33.640 --> 1:53:36.200 to let me test it, and tested I did. It 1:53:36.280 --> 1:53:39.599 turned out to be true in both cases. 1:53:39.720 --> 1:53:42.880 I will say for the inexperienced person, I think when 1:53:42.920 --> 1:53:45.400 you hear wool socks, you're like, okay, I'll wear those 1:53:45.439 --> 1:53:47.760 one it's cold, but no, you have to wear them 1:53:48.680 --> 1:53:52.600 for like it's like temperature regulation, right, It's like you. 1:53:52.640 --> 1:53:54.519 Want to let your foot breathe, right, so you don't 1:53:54.560 --> 1:53:55.960 get like blisters you get. 1:53:56.600 --> 1:53:58.680 Do you wear them any weather? That's my point. I 1:53:58.720 --> 1:54:01.720 feel like what I hear wool as someone that grew 1:54:01.840 --> 1:54:04.800 up in Sokel, I'm like, Okay, it's going to be cold, 1:54:04.960 --> 1:54:07.120 No it's not. Just put them on your feet and 1:54:07.720 --> 1:54:12.160 your shoe will be war comfy. Also a comfortable shoe essential. Yeah, yeah, 1:54:12.160 --> 1:54:13.040 I'm sure you're going to get there. 1:54:13.320 --> 1:54:15.200 But yeah, there are different thickness. Is you have will 1:54:15.240 --> 1:54:16.720 socks for cord wear there, but I also have wolf 1:54:16.760 --> 1:54:19.639 socks for hot weather, right, but they're all wool, you know, Well, yeah, 1:54:19.680 --> 1:54:22.040 they're just in Actually I wore a wool shirt when 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:23.600 I did a couple of years ago. There was a 1:54:23.640 --> 1:54:26.080 heat advisory, so I figured that would be a good 1:54:26.080 --> 1:54:28.840 time to go backpacking on the PCT because no one 1:54:28.840 --> 1:54:29.559 else would be there. 1:54:29.680 --> 1:54:30.519 Yeah, good idea. 1:54:30.640 --> 1:54:32.320 It's great. I had a wonderful time. It was not 1:54:32.400 --> 1:54:35.360 molested by people. He saw some snakes. It was nice 1:54:35.680 --> 1:54:38.600 rescue the dude, did you wear a sunscreen? Yeah? I 1:54:38.680 --> 1:54:41.680 did in that instance. Anah, actually yeah, this was after 1:54:41.720 --> 1:54:42.720 my sunscreen awakening. 1:54:43.120 --> 1:54:44.240 Oh great, I'm so glad. 1:54:44.720 --> 1:54:47.320 Don't go out without water. This dude was out looking 1:54:47.400 --> 1:54:49.640 for Kitchen Creek Falls, which if you're not familiar, as 1:54:49.640 --> 1:54:52.440 a seasonal waterfall in his county, San Diego, and he 1:54:52.640 --> 1:54:55.360 was probably about three or four months late or early, 1:54:55.520 --> 1:54:57.400 depending on how you look at it. And so if 1:54:57.440 --> 1:54:59.640 had gone out without water, which don't be relying on 1:54:59.680 --> 1:55:01.400 that kind of stuff. If it says water on the map, 1:55:01.480 --> 1:55:04.640 that's cool. Still bring water, especially you're in the desert. Yeah, 1:55:04.760 --> 1:55:08.200 let's talk about shoes. I think people want to go 1:55:08.360 --> 1:55:12.320 hiking in boots because that's what like you think of 1:55:12.760 --> 1:55:16.320 when you think of grambling or hiking. But like if 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:19.480 you don't wear boots for work or habitually, you know, 1:55:19.600 --> 1:55:24.280 for just like crosspunk reasons, then you might be really 1:55:24.360 --> 1:55:26.360 uncomfortable in boots. Like you're not used to hard things 1:55:26.480 --> 1:55:29.960 rubbing your ankles, so would not suggest and unless you're 1:55:29.960 --> 1:55:33.560 putting on load, Like I wear boots if I'm backpacking. Certainly, 1:55:33.640 --> 1:55:36.000 if I'm like pack rafting or something where I've got 1:55:36.080 --> 1:55:38.920 like the raft and everything else, and I'm going to 1:55:39.040 --> 1:55:40.560 do it a long hiking, right, so I've got all 1:55:40.600 --> 1:55:42.560 my camping stuff and the raft, I'm gonna wear boots. 1:55:43.160 --> 1:55:45.160 Or if I'm off trails when we drop water, We're 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:47.680 not going on trails, right, We're just sort of out 1:55:47.720 --> 1:55:50.120 and about climbing up mountain, So I'll wear boots for that. 1:55:50.600 --> 1:55:53.600 But for almost everyone, especially if you're hiking on trails, 1:55:53.920 --> 1:55:55.560 you're going to be just fine with shoes. I think 1:55:55.720 --> 1:55:58.200 the big thing boots give you more stability, right, they 1:55:58.240 --> 1:55:59.840 stop your ankle from twitch. 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:01.960 That's why I wear them. I weak ankles. 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:05.160 Yeah, it's genetic. Yeah, you can work on their little 1:56:05.160 --> 1:56:06.360 ankle strength stuff. 1:56:06.120 --> 1:56:09.000 You can do, but that's not happening, I'll just wear 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:10.360 a boot. 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:15.960 Boots maximalist for me, like finding shoes sort of stable 1:56:16.200 --> 1:56:19.960 that like you know, like inherently stabilize my foot without 1:56:20.040 --> 1:56:21.880 clamping my ankle has been really good. 1:56:21.920 --> 1:56:23.840 I feel more stable in a boot though you don't 1:56:23.880 --> 1:56:24.120 think so. 1:56:24.560 --> 1:56:27.360 Yeah, but then you're just sort of transferring to me, 1:56:27.560 --> 1:56:30.200 Like sometimes I like to have the ability to move 1:56:30.240 --> 1:56:33.080 my ankles, especially, like I like to trail run as well. 1:56:33.200 --> 1:56:35.040 If I'm to be honest, if I'm just going out, 1:56:35.520 --> 1:56:38.600 I'm probably running at the minute. And like even over 1:56:38.680 --> 1:56:40.800 night city, it's really fun to just run until it 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:43.280 gets dark and then sleep and then run again. It's 1:56:43.280 --> 1:56:43.920 a fun thing to do. 1:56:44.120 --> 1:56:44.280 Well. 1:56:44.280 --> 1:56:48.200 I'd be curious about your hiking shoe recommendations versus boot. 1:56:48.960 --> 1:56:51.840 So I got three. They're all like they have little 1:56:52.000 --> 1:56:55.560 kind of your foots like sitting in the insole, not 1:56:55.760 --> 1:56:57.800 on the insult, if that makes sense. So it's like 1:56:57.960 --> 1:57:00.480 cupped a little bit in that CUsing possibility. One is 1:57:00.520 --> 1:57:04.520 the Salomon Genesis. It's the cheapest one they make in 1:57:04.560 --> 1:57:06.760 that line. I think it's a really good shoe. I 1:57:06.920 --> 1:57:09.200 trail running in them all the time. Two the other 1:57:09.280 --> 1:57:13.880 one is a Soccany Exodus Ultra two, which it's really cool. 1:57:13.920 --> 1:57:15.560 It has like a softer foam in the middle and 1:57:15.600 --> 1:57:17.600 then a stiffer foam around the outside of your heel. 1:57:17.920 --> 1:57:20.560 I could talk about the shit for hours, but it 1:57:20.640 --> 1:57:23.480 feels very comfortable and soft. But also you're very stable, 1:57:23.960 --> 1:57:25.640 and they're about to be phased out, so you can 1:57:25.640 --> 1:57:26.400 find them really cheap. 1:57:26.520 --> 1:57:27.720 Why are they both to be phased out? 1:57:28.600 --> 1:57:31.680 Running shoe companies make a new shoe every year because 1:57:31.720 --> 1:57:32.640 they feel like they need to. 1:57:33.000 --> 1:57:35.280 Human foot has been the same, I would argue for 1:57:35.960 --> 1:57:38.360 a while. Yeah, it's not changing. 1:57:38.760 --> 1:57:41.560 Technology advances, right, Like shoe foams have come up, even 1:57:41.600 --> 1:57:42.880 in the past five or six years. Like if you 1:57:42.880 --> 1:57:44.680 have more running shoes in the past five or six years, 1:57:44.680 --> 1:57:46.560 and you have the means to buy some more running shoes, 1:57:46.960 --> 1:57:49.360 Piba foams and things like that, like these like high 1:57:49.440 --> 1:57:53.040 energy return phones make running a lot more pleasant. But 1:57:53.160 --> 1:57:55.240 often it's just like a different color scheme or you know, 1:57:55.320 --> 1:57:58.520 slightly different upper Yeah, and I think in that case 1:57:58.720 --> 1:58:01.120 you're just fine. The other ones that Meryl kind of 1:58:01.160 --> 1:58:03.320 had a reputation for making, like old man hiking boots 1:58:03.360 --> 1:58:06.040 for a while, but they're trail running shoes really great. 1:58:06.280 --> 1:58:10.200 That's cool. Yeah, my friend has Meryl shoes and they're cute. 1:58:11.160 --> 1:58:12.640 See they used to be cute. They used to be 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:14.240 very like dad coded. 1:58:14.440 --> 1:58:16.040 Yeah, I think they've turned a corner. 1:58:16.440 --> 1:58:18.280 Yeah they have. I'm a big fan. Now I'm wearing 1:58:18.320 --> 1:58:21.320 some right now. Actually, Alex to wear Meryl. The Agidity 1:58:21.400 --> 1:58:23.640 Peak one is good. The long Sky is when I 1:58:23.760 --> 1:58:27.560 like when I'm like trail running in burlier terrain. If 1:58:27.560 --> 1:58:30.400 you're going to buy boots or shoes, please try it on, 1:58:30.680 --> 1:58:32.120 or at least sort of them from a website that 1:58:32.200 --> 1:58:33.400 lets you send them back. Yeah. 1:58:33.640 --> 1:58:35.880 I really think that's essential. I messed up the first 1:58:35.960 --> 1:58:39.720 time I really invested in expensive boots. I got them 1:58:39.800 --> 1:58:42.880 after all reading all these reviews and I hated them. 1:58:42.960 --> 1:58:44.440 Like I walked around my house and I was like, 1:58:44.600 --> 1:58:47.920 these are terrible. But I was able to return them 1:58:48.000 --> 1:58:50.560 to my ARII that was vocal, And I tried on 1:58:50.800 --> 1:58:52.640 the other shoe I wanted to try on that they 1:58:52.760 --> 1:58:55.480 had and that was great. I walked around in Aria 1:58:55.600 --> 1:58:57.080 and I was like, this is the one you have 1:58:57.200 --> 1:58:57.800 to try them on. 1:58:58.440 --> 1:59:00.560 Yeah, take the socks you're going to wear when you're 1:59:00.600 --> 1:59:02.440 hiking as well. Like they don't just take socks and 1:59:02.640 --> 1:59:04.720 don't feel the same. And then we walk around and 1:59:05.240 --> 1:59:07.000 the next thing I had was backpacked. Actually, and I'm 1:59:07.040 --> 1:59:10.480 going to say the same thing, like, the most important 1:59:10.520 --> 1:59:12.520 thing for a backpack is that it fits your body, 1:59:12.920 --> 1:59:15.280 and that it is fitted to your body. Ari I 1:59:15.400 --> 1:59:18.320 will do that for free, which is great. Lots of 1:59:18.400 --> 1:59:21.040 other outdoor shops for San Diego used to have Adventure sixteen. 1:59:21.480 --> 1:59:24.920 It's sadly closed rip. But anyone who's trying to sell 1:59:24.920 --> 1:59:26.440 your backpack in person and won't fit it to you 1:59:26.560 --> 1:59:29.000 is probably someone you shouldn't buy a backpack from. So 1:59:29.400 --> 1:59:33.080 if you google around enough and you have enough google for, 1:59:33.200 --> 1:59:35.960 you will find a video of me teaching you how 1:59:36.080 --> 1:59:39.880 to wear your backpack. Someone will find Yes, I know, 1:59:40.040 --> 1:59:42.720 and yeah, I've got a broken arm in that video, 1:59:43.360 --> 1:59:46.960 which you can't tell. I haven't sought medical attention at 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:48.920 the time of the video. Got hit by a car 1:59:49.080 --> 1:59:50.280 and then I knew I had to eat a video 1:59:50.480 --> 1:59:52.280 the next day, so I went to do the video. 1:59:54.000 --> 1:59:55.560 I have to make money. It was broke. 1:59:56.120 --> 2:00:00.320 I will say that as someone who is it the 2:00:00.440 --> 2:00:02.680 most knowledgeable about the stuff, But I like it, and 2:00:02.720 --> 2:00:05.680 I would consider myself like a I don't know, intermediate, 2:00:05.880 --> 2:00:09.960 not advanced, but go into ARII and getting a backpack fit. 2:00:10.040 --> 2:00:12.760 And that's what I did. Don't shy away from asking questions. 2:00:12.800 --> 2:00:14.840 They're there to help and I think as soon as 2:00:14.880 --> 2:00:16.920 you get over that, you'll be fine. I feel like 2:00:16.960 --> 2:00:19.400 as soon as I just like accept that these people 2:00:19.480 --> 2:00:21.600 are there to help you and not to shame you, 2:00:22.200 --> 2:00:26.240 hopefully that's great and like, yeah, they're trying to sell 2:00:26.280 --> 2:00:29.080 you things, but I don't know, just go in with 2:00:29.200 --> 2:00:30.960 a smart head on your shoulders. 2:00:31.280 --> 2:00:34.600 Yeah, expect people to be well meaning, like we all 2:00:34.680 --> 2:00:36.440 just want you to be happy and enjoying the outdoors 2:00:36.480 --> 2:00:40.000 with us. It's not a competition with backpacks. Real quickly, 2:00:40.120 --> 2:00:43.600 you've got basically three distinct types. You have ultra light backpacks, 2:00:43.600 --> 2:00:45.560 which you don't have a frame at all. Imagine a 2:00:45.600 --> 2:00:48.120 bucket made of fabric with two straps so attached to 2:00:48.160 --> 2:00:51.320 your back. I wouldn't suggest starting there. You have external 2:00:51.400 --> 2:00:54.520 frame that's where the frame is external and the back 2:00:54.760 --> 2:00:56.920 is clipped onto the frame. And you have internal frame 2:00:57.120 --> 2:01:00.120 where the frame is integral to the back right to 2:01:00.160 --> 2:01:01.800 the bags. You're probably going to look at an internal 2:01:01.880 --> 2:01:04.480 frame to start with the heavier the bag gets. The 2:01:04.680 --> 2:01:07.360 more structure you get and the more little pockets an 2:01:07.440 --> 2:01:10.840 organization you get, those can seem super tempting, especially when 2:01:10.840 --> 2:01:13.320 you're looking online and you're seeing like different specs and 2:01:13.400 --> 2:01:15.480 trying to compare them. If you're a person who has 2:01:15.520 --> 2:01:18.560 access to ziplock bags, you don't need all the pockets, right, Like, yeah, 2:01:18.880 --> 2:01:21.040 what I do every single time they go back back 2:01:21.040 --> 2:01:22.760 and so I put a bin bag in it that 2:01:22.920 --> 2:01:25.879 waterproofs it. Right, Yeah, it's cool if your bags it's waterproof, 2:01:26.080 --> 2:01:28.880 I don't trust it to be waterproof, and it doesn't 2:01:28.920 --> 2:01:30.040 need to be because I'm going to put a bin 2:01:30.080 --> 2:01:31.840 bag in there anyway, and I put everything in stuff 2:01:31.880 --> 2:01:34.280 sacks as zip block bags in there. Likewise, you'll find 2:01:34.320 --> 2:01:37.360 lots of bags with like seventy five ways to access 2:01:37.400 --> 2:01:40.520 the main pocket. Most of the time you're going to 2:01:40.560 --> 2:01:43.440 have your stuff inside a waterproof bag anyway, It's not 2:01:43.600 --> 2:01:44.240 such a big deal. 2:01:44.360 --> 2:01:46.240 I think the most important aspect of a bag that 2:01:46.360 --> 2:01:47.680 used to look at first is just the weight. 2:01:48.840 --> 2:01:51.080 Yeah, you can fuck yourself up with a heavy bag. 2:01:51.400 --> 2:01:54.000 Although that said, like one of the bags that I 2:01:54.120 --> 2:01:56.760 use the most for water drop stuff is a Mystery 2:01:56.840 --> 2:01:59.760 Ranch Blackjacke it's a military bag. It's heavy. It's like 2:01:59.800 --> 2:02:02.200 a I think it's five point seven pounds for the bag, 2:02:03.040 --> 2:02:06.360 but I'm not trying to be light. What I'm trying 2:02:06.360 --> 2:02:09.400 to do is fill it with gallons of water, right, 2:02:09.600 --> 2:02:11.120 and then haul them up and down a mounted So 2:02:11.160 --> 2:02:12.920 I might as well make the bag comfortable because it's 2:02:12.920 --> 2:02:15.760 a negligible percentage of the overall weight of shit I'm carrying. 2:02:15.960 --> 2:02:16.360 That's fair. 2:02:16.840 --> 2:02:19.800 There's a bag for the Radix, the Mystery Ranch make 2:02:19.840 --> 2:02:21.880 that I've been using a lot recently, and it's made 2:02:21.920 --> 2:02:24.720 of like very lightweight material, like an ultrolyte bag. But 2:02:24.880 --> 2:02:27.320 I like their frames. They have like a yoke that 2:02:27.480 --> 2:02:29.560 kind of wraps around your body as opposed to frame 2:02:29.600 --> 2:02:31.560 that sits on top of your body, and that works 2:02:31.680 --> 2:02:35.240 really well for me. Their warranty is good, their products 2:02:35.280 --> 2:02:38.080 are good. I've used their bags in like every continent 2:02:38.120 --> 2:02:41.280 apart from the Antarctic and never had anything break. Especially 2:02:41.400 --> 2:02:43.120 like if you're a person who gets actious about your 2:02:43.120 --> 2:02:45.840 ship breaking, then you can't go wrong with them. They 2:02:45.880 --> 2:02:49.320 also have incredible discount If you want one but you 2:02:49.360 --> 2:02:51.360 think it's too expensive, take your time and you'll find 2:02:51.400 --> 2:02:55.000 them way cheaper. That's a good bag to get. I 2:02:55.120 --> 2:02:58.680 like Gregory bags, Osprey or a good brand. Osprey bags can. 2:02:58.640 --> 2:03:01.680 Tell to what I have backpacking backpack is an Osprey. 2:03:02.280 --> 2:03:04.400 Yeah, They're very comfortable. They have a lot going on 2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:07.200 sometimes and they have that mesh. Do you have the 2:03:07.240 --> 2:03:10.000 one with a mesh? Like? Yeah, they are very comfortable. 2:03:10.000 --> 2:03:12.160 I have an Osprey bag that I really like. I 2:03:12.240 --> 2:03:14.000 took it pack rafting and Alaska and it was great. 2:03:14.040 --> 2:03:15.680 It was bomba. If you're just going on a day hike, 2:03:15.680 --> 2:03:18.040 you don't need very much backpack, right, twenty liters or 2:03:18.080 --> 2:03:21.120 whatever is fine, even ten. I really like those running 2:03:21.160 --> 2:03:23.920 vesttile backpacks where you have like pockets on the front. 2:03:24.440 --> 2:03:26.920 Have you seen those? You don't have to pick? Oh, 2:03:26.960 --> 2:03:27.320 it's cool. 2:03:27.400 --> 2:03:27.560 Yeah? 2:03:27.720 --> 2:03:28.240 Do I have one? 2:03:29.280 --> 2:03:30.640 Send your pictulator shat things? 2:03:31.200 --> 2:03:31.400 Yeah? 2:03:31.440 --> 2:03:33.360 I mean you're looking forward to it. When I ran, 2:03:33.440 --> 2:03:35.160 I like to have a little water flasks down there, 2:03:35.240 --> 2:03:38.000 and then that makes sense. Yeah, And then I was like, 2:03:38.040 --> 2:03:40.280 why don't have this on my normal backpack? Why am 2:03:40.280 --> 2:03:42.560 I having to like reach around for my snacks? I'm 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:45.720 all about a fishency. So running vestile backpacks are cool. 2:03:46.200 --> 2:03:48.720 Camelback has some good ones. Everyone called the octane. I 2:03:48.840 --> 2:03:52.879 use a lot, and then when you're buying a backpack, 2:03:53.000 --> 2:03:54.800 you'll want to pile a little water reservoir to go 2:03:54.920 --> 2:03:57.000 in it. One of the reasons you're going to waterproof 2:03:57.040 --> 2:03:59.960 everything in your bag is because every single water reservoir 2:04:00.280 --> 2:04:03.280 that you put in your backpack will break at some point, 2:04:03.640 --> 2:04:06.200 and when it does, it will send its contents into 2:04:06.280 --> 2:04:08.200 your bag and it will be a bad day. Un 2:04:08.200 --> 2:04:10.640 As you've water proved everything, this will happen to you, 2:04:11.080 --> 2:04:13.120 especially if you like sit down and lean back and 2:04:13.160 --> 2:04:15.240 then you crush it. So that's where you're gonna water 2:04:15.320 --> 2:04:17.600 with everything. But I think hydro pack like the best ones. 2:04:18.240 --> 2:04:20.680 I really like that insulated ones. Even if you don't 2:04:20.720 --> 2:04:27.200 get an insulated bladder, get an insulated sucky cue SUSA worcherine. 2:04:27.360 --> 2:04:32.400 Thank you, last podcast of the day here, guys. Yeah, 2:04:32.640 --> 2:04:36.360 getting intated straw because when it's really cold, otherwise your 2:04:36.400 --> 2:04:40.000 straw will freeze because it's like a small amount of 2:04:40.040 --> 2:04:41.760 water right when it freezes more quickly. 2:04:41.960 --> 2:04:44.080 I never thought of that. I've only backpacked and highten 2:04:44.160 --> 2:04:44.880 really hot weather. 2:04:45.800 --> 2:04:48.120 Yeah, when it's below freezing, like even like I was 2:04:48.160 --> 2:04:51.640 out on Palomar in October A Ferry turned from Curtis 2:04:51.720 --> 2:04:54.320 Dan So it was you know, below freezing top of 2:04:54.400 --> 2:04:57.040 the mountain and know my water froze. You can blow 2:04:57.200 --> 2:04:58.880 your water back out again, but you're just going to 2:04:58.920 --> 2:05:01.600 forget to do that realistic. And then yeah, the last 2:05:01.640 --> 2:05:04.840 thing I had was hiking poles. Hiking poles are great. 2:05:04.840 --> 2:05:07.240 You've never had a pole, You never had a pole, 2:05:07.360 --> 2:05:08.720 if you ever had a stick, I mean. 2:05:09.000 --> 2:05:11.160 It's like fine ones. And I guess I don't hike 2:05:11.240 --> 2:05:14.000 on the things I might need a poll for. I 2:05:14.040 --> 2:05:14.880 guess I don't know. 2:05:15.040 --> 2:05:17.600 Yeah, they're great if you're someone who's like maybe has 2:05:17.680 --> 2:05:21.520 some injuries or you're worried about your knees just because 2:05:21.760 --> 2:05:24.640 they hurt in general life. They were a great way 2:05:24.720 --> 2:05:25.520 to take this strain. 2:05:25.360 --> 2:05:26.760 Off of the I'm trying to give innce my mom 2:05:26.840 --> 2:05:28.440 to get a pair of poles because I think she 2:05:28.440 --> 2:05:30.240 would really benefit from them because she wants to go 2:05:30.320 --> 2:05:33.160 on all these hikes and yeah, just needs help. So 2:05:33.440 --> 2:05:35.400 there's no shame in getting a pole or two. 2:05:36.080 --> 2:05:41.600 I will donate your mom some poles. Sarene Oh, it's 2:05:41.680 --> 2:05:44.040 my Gift's my gift you. Saren's mom helped me translate 2:05:44.080 --> 2:05:46.200 for some migrants the other day. My mom's the best 2:05:47.040 --> 2:05:50.240 I'll send you. Don't be afraid of using them. Don't 2:05:50.280 --> 2:05:52.400 be thinking that like anyone's going to judge you for 2:05:52.600 --> 2:05:54.720 using them. Like, if that makes you feel more stable 2:05:54.760 --> 2:05:58.120 and comfortable, go for it. Don't buy the ones that 2:05:58.240 --> 2:06:02.240 telescope I mean by telescope, like, yeah, because they collapse. 2:06:02.640 --> 2:06:05.640 And I remember I was up in the Sierras six 2:06:05.760 --> 2:06:08.080 or seven years ago now and it was fucking snowyer 2:06:08.160 --> 2:06:11.960 than I'd expected. Then my stupid hiking pole collapsed into itself. 2:06:12.920 --> 2:06:16.800 It just just made the day like less fun. 2:06:17.040 --> 2:06:18.640 Yeah, I can imagine that. 2:06:19.120 --> 2:06:21.680 But otherwise it stick is great, right, find a nice stick, 2:06:21.800 --> 2:06:24.600 fine with a nice notch your thumb. Get it from 2:06:24.640 --> 2:06:26.920 a nice type of wood. Used to love making sticks 2:06:26.960 --> 2:06:29.160 when it was little. You can get a stick topper. 2:06:29.200 --> 2:06:31.000 You can order them online. You know, it's got like 2:06:31.080 --> 2:06:33.320 a head of a dog or a pheasant. 2:06:33.040 --> 2:06:35.720 Or a cane. It's like a fancy little cane. 2:06:36.280 --> 2:06:40.600 Yeah, we had crooks, you know, a crook no for 2:06:40.760 --> 2:06:42.080 like when you're catching your sheep. 2:06:42.960 --> 2:06:47.080 James, Why you mean, like there's the hook looking thing. 2:06:48.080 --> 2:06:49.600 Yes, yeah, it's called a croak. 2:06:49.760 --> 2:06:50.480 I did not know that. 2:06:51.000 --> 2:06:53.000 I know what you're talking now that you mentioned sheep, 2:06:53.520 --> 2:06:55.960 I know what that is, but I've never known. Yeah, 2:06:56.000 --> 2:06:59.280 because you're sheep eggs. But yeah, it's got a crook. 2:06:59.560 --> 2:07:00.800 We said that's great for walking. 2:07:01.000 --> 2:07:03.880 I can see that. Yeah, yeah, so we we used 2:07:03.880 --> 2:07:05.120 to use those a lot when I was a kid. 2:07:05.240 --> 2:07:08.280 But yeah, having one is great. And I think, especially 2:07:08.600 --> 2:07:12.400 like if you're nervous about falling going with your person 2:07:12.440 --> 2:07:15.000 who worries about their knees, if you're picking your first route, 2:07:15.040 --> 2:07:16.800 keep it pretty flat. If you're going up and down 2:07:16.840 --> 2:07:18.600 a lot of elevation and you're worried about how that's 2:07:18.640 --> 2:07:20.200 going to feel, the pole's a very good way to 2:07:20.280 --> 2:07:22.560 mitigate someone worried that I'm going to fall on my knees. 2:07:22.760 --> 2:07:25.520 But yeah, don't feel afraid of using that stuff. Oh, 2:07:25.600 --> 2:07:27.120 I forgot to say one thing. In my shoes. Think 2:07:27.280 --> 2:07:31.280 chacos are the best sandals. Fuck all other sandals. That's 2:07:31.320 --> 2:07:32.640 what I have to say about that. You know when 2:07:32.680 --> 2:07:35.440 you're cool because you have the z from the chaco's 2:07:35.720 --> 2:07:39.760 burned onto your feet. Well, unless you practice foot skincare, 2:07:39.800 --> 2:07:41.600 which I've not upgraded to that level yet. 2:07:41.600 --> 2:07:44.280 I was thinking about getting those. I remember I was 2:07:44.480 --> 2:07:46.360 signing between those and something else, and I go off 2:07:46.400 --> 2:07:47.960 for something else, But now I have to go back 2:07:48.000 --> 2:07:48.480 and get those. 2:07:49.040 --> 2:07:51.640 A couple of years ago, I rafted with some people 2:07:51.640 --> 2:07:53.680 who listened to the podcast. They invited me and I 2:07:53.760 --> 2:07:55.839 went and we did a week on the Colorado. 2:07:55.920 --> 2:07:56.640 Oh that's so cool. 2:07:57.280 --> 2:08:00.400 You're so trusting little irl. I like to go. 2:08:00.560 --> 2:08:01.280 So it was cool. 2:08:01.800 --> 2:08:05.320 I like people. So some of them reached out and 2:08:05.360 --> 2:08:07.120 I said, yeah, let let's go for a rafting trip. 2:08:07.120 --> 2:08:08.960 So we went on a rafting trip on the Colorado River. 2:08:09.320 --> 2:08:11.280 And now I wore my chackos the whole time while 2:08:11.320 --> 2:08:11.800 sun cream. 2:08:11.960 --> 2:08:12.560 None of the time. 2:08:13.400 --> 2:08:16.720 Feet were just roasted, just red, but with a little 2:08:16.800 --> 2:08:20.080 z from the chat. But for the whole summer anyways, 2:08:20.200 --> 2:08:22.360 they are very comfortable sandals. One of my friends, another 2:08:22.400 --> 2:08:25.920 podcast listener, is hiking the PCT in his chackos right now. 2:08:26.280 --> 2:08:29.760 Thanks go to Canada. So yeah, I hope you're doing well. 2:08:30.520 --> 2:08:33.440 They know who they are. Surprisingly enough, I've gone long 2:08:33.560 --> 2:08:34.760 talking about outdoor things. 2:08:35.080 --> 2:08:38.320 But no, I'm glad you took the time to make 2:08:38.400 --> 2:08:40.400 this little list. I realized I don't have to be 2:08:40.480 --> 2:08:42.120 as big of a dummy as I thought. I thought 2:08:42.120 --> 2:08:43.200 I was going to come in here and being a 2:08:43.280 --> 2:08:45.320 huge dummy. I know more than I think I do. 2:08:45.760 --> 2:08:49.800 You know, and I know what to do outside most 2:08:49.840 --> 2:08:50.280 of the time. 2:08:50.520 --> 2:08:53.120 Yes, sure, yes you do. Thank you for listening to 2:08:53.200 --> 2:08:56.400 me talking about going outside. If you have any questions, 2:08:56.920 --> 2:08:59.320 you can DM me on Twitter. That is the only 2:08:59.360 --> 2:09:02.800 way I community with anyone. Now, don't have a DM me, 2:09:02.840 --> 2:09:04.400 and I'll send you my email. But really, like, I 2:09:04.640 --> 2:09:08.200 just want people to feel that the outdoors is for 2:09:08.320 --> 2:09:12.600 them and feel safe and feel comfortable, and feel like 2:09:12.640 --> 2:09:14.760 they know all the things they need to know, and 2:09:15.280 --> 2:09:19.240 to not buy stuff because someone's getting three percent back 2:09:19.280 --> 2:09:20.680 on it even though they've never touched it in their 2:09:20.720 --> 2:09:22.840 whole lives. And also, like, I know that we're all 2:09:22.880 --> 2:09:25.800 fucking poor and spending your money is hard. So I've 2:09:25.840 --> 2:09:28.960 tried to suggest stuff it's not crazy expensive or that 2:09:29.040 --> 2:09:31.240 you can find on sale, but if you have questions. 2:09:31.640 --> 2:09:33.720 Oh one more thing, There's a company called Outdoor Vitals 2:09:33.760 --> 2:09:35.960 which has a subscription. You can be a member and 2:09:36.000 --> 2:09:37.360 then you can get a lot of their stuff cheaping 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:39.880 for backpacking. It's a good company and they make some 2:09:39.920 --> 2:09:41.760 good stuff, and they do some good stuff the outdoors 2:09:41.800 --> 2:09:43.920 as well. But yeah, if you have questions, you can 2:09:44.120 --> 2:09:46.480 message me. We will do one about what to put 2:09:46.520 --> 2:09:50.600 in your bag when you get backpacking. Eventually. Yeah, go outside. 2:09:51.080 --> 2:09:54.040 Send us your photos if you're going outside, if they're 2:09:54.080 --> 2:09:55.080 not weird, we would like that. 2:09:56.160 --> 2:09:58.480 It could happen here as a production of polls on media. 2:09:58.800 --> 2:10:01.400 For more podcasts, we call Zone Media. Visitor a website, 2:10:01.480 --> 2:10:03.640 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 2:10:03.720 --> 2:10:07.080 iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:10:07.400 --> 2:10:10.560 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 2:10:10.640 --> 2:10:12.520 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:10:13.120 --> 2:10:15.480 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:10:15.720 --> 2:10:18.360 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visitor a website, 2:10:18.440 --> 2:10:20.640 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 2:10:20.720 --> 2:10:24.080 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:10:24.520 --> 2:10:26.640 You can find sources for It could happen here, updated 2:10:26.720 --> 2:10:30.720 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.