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Speaker 1: All Zone media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome to It could happen here. This is

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Speaker 3: Sharene and today is part one of a two part

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Speaker 3: series where we talked to someone who was on the

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Speaker 3: ground in Palestine in both Lesday and the West Bank.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to say Lesday because that's how you say

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Speaker 3: in Arabic, but that means Gaza for those who are unfamiliar.

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Speaker 3: Ever since Israel began bombing the people of Lesday in

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Speaker 3: October of last year, it has been virtually impossible for

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Speaker 3: aid to get into Lensday. Both the Israeli government and

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Speaker 3: its citizens, acting on their own initiative, have blocked AID convoys,

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Speaker 3: destroyed life saving medical and food aid, and harassed people

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Speaker 3: for supplying aid. AID workers who even can get into

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Speaker 3: Leze have been bombed, shot at and killed. And it's

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Speaker 3: not just AID that can't get into Lese. It's extraordinarily

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Speaker 3: hard for information to even get out. Cell Phone signal

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Speaker 3: is scarce, and understandably people there use it to contact

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Speaker 3: their families, not foreign journalists, so to get a good

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Speaker 3: sense of what life is like on the ground. In

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Speaker 3: the Dafa, we spoke to Ava, one of the Mutual

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Speaker 3: Aid volunteers who, at great risk to her own life,

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Speaker 3: traveled into Lesse to help the people there.

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Speaker 4: My name is Ava. I am a nurse and street medic.

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Speaker 4: I'm Jewish of European ancestry and was raised in Pacific

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Speaker 4: Northwest on the traditional lands of the Chinook, Tualitan and

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Speaker 4: Clacamus and many other First nations what is commonly called

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Speaker 4: Portland organ.

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Speaker 3: Ava was able to send us some voice notes to

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Speaker 3: scribe having her day to day back in April. She

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Speaker 3: told us what she saw, what she experienced, what she heard. Understandably,

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Speaker 3: there's some background noise in some of this audio, but

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Speaker 3: I personally think it helps ground us in the moment

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Speaker 3: that she's experiencing.

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Speaker 4: So here I am the morning of Friday, April nineteenth.

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Speaker 4: This is the start of my second day in Laza.

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Speaker 4: I spent a full day yesterday at a Najadre hospital

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Speaker 4: in the emergency department, getting introduced to the staff there,

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Speaker 4: the work, the equipment, the patterns of illness and injury,

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Speaker 4: the shortages, struggles, the pain, the happiness was really quite

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Speaker 4: beautiful and hard and a mashup of everything I've experienced

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Speaker 4: in occupation, things I've experienced as a new nurse to

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Speaker 4: a floor, and things I haven't experienced before, which is

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Speaker 4: being in a site of an active war zone and

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Speaker 4: genocide on The Jahre hospital is located very close to

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Speaker 4: the Rafa border crossing. It's also, I guess, one of

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Speaker 4: the areas more heavily impacted by violence right now in Rapha,

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Speaker 4: which is still much less so than areas to the

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Speaker 4: north like hon Yunis, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: We asked Ava to explain the situation in the Dapha

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Speaker 3: at the time of this recording and where she was

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Speaker 3: within it. The following conversation with Ava took place on

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Speaker 3: April twenty ninth.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I will first locate myself in Pa, which

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Speaker 4: is the only part of Plaza that I have ever seen,

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Speaker 4: and I have only been in the Gaza during the

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Speaker 4: last two weeks.

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Speaker 5: I've been Palestine twice.

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Speaker 4: This is my first time in this area, and I

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Speaker 4: haven't seen Adinda Haraza. I haven't seen a honeyness. I

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Speaker 4: haven't seen the destruction up there. And I think that

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Speaker 4: that is from the people who I've met who are

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Speaker 4: roughie cheese, from those areas, healthcare workers, members of the public.

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Speaker 5: There's really oh yeah, there's just a moto. Sorry.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of rumblings and things that happened periodically,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of them are explosions that I think

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Speaker 4: is just a motor But yeah, I mean it's really

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Speaker 4: interesting because I arrived at a moment when food stuffs

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Speaker 4: had just started to cross in a little bit more regularly,

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Speaker 4: and I was told that basically in the week before,

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Speaker 4: like street markets had reoccurred, which hadn't been a thing

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Speaker 4: for months.

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Speaker 5: And that's like a big part of my experience in

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Speaker 5: the West Bank.

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Speaker 4: And so it was really great to see people, even

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Speaker 4: if it was just like a little bit of food

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Speaker 4: selling food on the street, starting to see bread being

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Speaker 4: baked and distributed, seeing people out and about was exciting.

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Speaker 4: There is rampant signs of destruction everywhere. There are lots

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Speaker 4: of standing buildings, but there are lots of piles of

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Speaker 4: rubble in streets the sites of former buildings. People have

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Speaker 4: in a remarkable job clearing space, but there's sense of

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Speaker 4: destruction everywhere, and I think in some ways the most

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Speaker 4: painful sites are where buildings aren't completely destroyed and you

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Speaker 4: can see into people's bedrooms, kitchens, bathrooms, things like that,

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Speaker 4: see artwork still hanging, seek fragments of their homes and lives.

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Speaker 4: There are tent cities everywhere. I am currently speaking to

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Speaker 4: from within a house that is one of the houses

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Speaker 4: that are rented by NGOs in the area from generally

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Speaker 4: people who have managed to escape that's h and who

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Speaker 4: are renting their homes for a bit of income and

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Speaker 4: to decrease the likelihood their house will be bombed. And

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Speaker 4: in this particular house, we're in the neighborhood of Telsutan,

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Speaker 4: and there are tent cities all around us. So it's

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Speaker 4: one of those weird situations of staying in a somewhat

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Speaker 4: palatial home where there are people sleeping in very rudimentary

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Speaker 4: tents and structures, sometimes completely uncovered in one hundred plus

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Speaker 4: degree weather. I think the highest temperatures we've seen a

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Speaker 4: couple of days where it was about four to eight

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Speaker 4: degrees center grade, which is about one oh seven sarrenheit.

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Speaker 4: There are a lot of sick people, a lot of

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Speaker 4: struggling people.

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Speaker 3: Longtime listeners of the podcast will remember our interview with

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Speaker 3: toddic Lobani, one of the inventors of the three D

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Speaker 3: printed tourniquet, as well as the founder of Glia, a

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Speaker 3: medical aid charity, Ava who was also a medical professional,

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Speaker 3: is working with them.

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Speaker 4: I've been working with an organization called Glia that works

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Speaker 4: with primary care clinics and with Martrinity and like natal clinics,

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Speaker 4: and has also been starting to work with at least

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Speaker 4: one emergency department. And I've been working at the hospital

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Speaker 4: on the new shod, which is used to basically be a

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Speaker 4: community tertiary hospital with basically an urgent care clinic, that

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Speaker 4: has basically become the only remaining general public emergency department

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Speaker 4: in the RAA. There are other there's like an eternity

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Speaker 4: emergency department, hospital department, there's an emergency department run by

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Speaker 4: MSF and like these other ones, but like this is

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Speaker 4: the only like general public one. And I've been there

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Speaker 4: just you know, for two weeks most every day, it's

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Speaker 4: a day off. When I was sick and took off

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Speaker 4: the day today to see some different parts of some

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Speaker 4: other clinics, which is really good comparison.

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Speaker 3: We asked Ava what kind of injuries she sees and

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Speaker 3: what the medical situation is like in LA But.

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Speaker 4: I will say that it's while the variety of you know,

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Speaker 4: injuries and illnesses that you'll see in that space.

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Speaker 5: That is true of any emergency department.

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Speaker 4: But depending on the hours I have foundering the day,

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Speaker 4: most of the illnesses and injuries are more usual except

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Speaker 4: exacerbated by the lack of resources, lack of primary character

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Speaker 4: resources celebated by the lack of medications, exacerbated by the

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Speaker 4: lack of clean water and sanitation. Occasionally injuries like from

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Speaker 4: bombings or shootings at night when I have not been there.

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Speaker 4: I have heard of many missile strikes wiping out entire families,

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Speaker 4: large numbers of people murdered. I have seen, you know,

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Speaker 4: several people killed in that way come to the emergency department,

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Speaker 4: but in no way representative of what's been happening, And

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Speaker 4: it's been a vile account, better these weeks than it

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Speaker 4: has been before. Though the number of missile strikes and

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Speaker 4: things are kind of increasing. There has been word given

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Speaker 4: that there is likely going to be evacuation orders starting

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Speaker 4: in the next in this next few days to a

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Speaker 4: week from the Israelis, but no signs of and in

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Speaker 4: me it's inclusion that said, we don't know. Most people

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Speaker 4: are pretty hopeful of that that I've talked to, that

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Speaker 4: a ceasefire will be reached, although it's unclear what that

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Speaker 4: would mean. But I can say from my time working

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Speaker 4: in these hospitals that and just being in the community

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Speaker 4: that like most people are hanging on by a thread,

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Speaker 4: whether they have just gotten something very loosely resembling a

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Speaker 4: hint of stability, of like having a place where they

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Speaker 4: are having access to food. There are children playing, there

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Speaker 4: are you know, some some of the signs of life

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Speaker 4: that I'm used to seeing in Palestine. There are emergency

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Speaker 4: departments that are somewhat functional. They're like my colleagues working

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Speaker 4: at a NICU where it's always full, but they are

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Speaker 4: able to care for the babies that are there, even

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Speaker 4: not as well as they would like to, but like

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Speaker 4: they are able to if this population is displaced again,

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Speaker 4: which is what the Israelis are suggesting in this case

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Speaker 4: towards hon units, which they've leveled, and they are trying

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Speaker 4: to get the international community to set up tense cities

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Speaker 4: there that will kill a lot of people, that will

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Speaker 4: tear apart a lot of what little people had left.

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Speaker 4: So very very difficult in that way. That said, it's

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Speaker 4: also more alive than I expected. There's more signs of

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Speaker 4: daily life, of children playing, of people making and serving

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Speaker 4: coffee in the street, of a couple of bakeries are producing,

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Speaker 4: you know, all those pieces like flawfel sands like those

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Speaker 4: things exist. A cost of food or atrocious We don't

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Speaker 4: you know, buy food here, but I'm aware of some

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Speaker 4: of the prices and they are much higher than they

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Speaker 4: would be in the West Bank, where food is you know,

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Speaker 4: not on Embarco.

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Speaker 3: For those who aren't super familiar, the West Bank refers

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Speaker 3: to the West Bank of Jordan. It stretches across the

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Speaker 3: eastern border of Israel, along the west banks of the

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Speaker 3: Jordan River and most of the Dead Sea. It was

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Speaker 3: designated as its own region when Israel established itself and

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Speaker 3: ethnically cleansed Palestine in nineteen forty eight, but it has

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Speaker 3: been eaten away to a massive amount in nineteen sixty seven.

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Speaker 3: It was occupied during the Six Day War, and during

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Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies and eighties, Israel began establishing settlements there,

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Speaker 3: which was and is still illegal under international law, and

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Speaker 3: even with protests from the international community, Israel continues still

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Speaker 3: today to establish settlements on Palestinian land. The first major

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Speaker 3: Arab uprising aka the First Intifada, also referred to as

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Speaker 3: the Stone Intifada, began in nineteen eighty seven in the

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Speaker 3: Gaza Strip and spread to the West Bank. It ended

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Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three with the signing of the First

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Speaker 3: Oslo Accords. The Second Intifada, also known as the Alusa Antifada,

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Speaker 3: was another major Arab uprising by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation.

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Speaker 3: During the twenty tens, the Fatah dominated Palestinian authority worked

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Speaker 3: toward established itself as an independent government in the urban

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Speaker 3: Palestinian areas of the West Bank. At the same time,

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Speaker 3: Israel expanded its settlement activity in the territory. Tutta, formerly

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Speaker 3: the Palestinian National Liberation Movement, is a Palestinian nationalist and

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Speaker 3: social democratic political party. It is the largest faction of

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Speaker 3: the confederated multi party Palestine Liberation organization and the second

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Speaker 3: largest party in the Palestinian Legislative Council. PUTTA has been

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Speaker 3: closely identified with the leadership of its founder and chairman,

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Speaker 3: Yasser Arafat, who was elected chairman of the PLO in

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Speaker 3: Cairo in February nineteen sixty nine until his death in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and four. In May twenty twenty one, Palestine

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Speaker 3: families in Schechtradra, a neighborhood and occupied East Jerusalem, began

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Speaker 3: protesting against Israel's plan to forcibly evict them from their

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Speaker 3: homes to make way for Jewish settlers. Many of the

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Speaker 3: families were refugees who had settled in Schechtradra after being

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Speaker 3: forcibly displaced around the time of Israel's establishment as a

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Speaker 3: state in nineteen forty eight. Since Israel occupied East Jerusalem

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Speaker 3: and the rest of the West Bank in nineteen sixty seven,

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Speaker 3: Palestinians and Schektradra had been continuously targeted by Israeli authorities,

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Speaker 3: who used discriminatory laws to systematically dispossess Palestinians of their

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Speaker 3: land and homes for the benefit of Jewish Israelis. The

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Speaker 3: events of May twenty twenty one were emblematic of the

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Speaker 3: oppression which Palestinians have faced every day for decades. The discrimination,

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Speaker 3: the dispossession, and the repression of descent, the killings and injuries.

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Speaker 3: They are all a part of a system which is

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Speaker 3: designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: This is apartheid, which is, as you should know, prohibited

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Speaker 3: an international law. In twenty twenty one, Amnesty International reported

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Speaker 3: that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against

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Speaker 3: Palestinians across all areas under its control in Israel and

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Speaker 3: the occupied Palestinian territories, and against Palestinian refugees in order

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Speaker 3: to benefit Israelis laws, policies, and practices which are intended

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Speaker 3: to maintain a violent system of control over Palestinians have

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Speaker 3: left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in

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Speaker 3: a constant state of fear and insecurity, with no freedom

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Speaker 3: of movement or freedom's period. And then there's Israel's apartheid Wall,

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Speaker 3: which began as a fence along the border between the

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Speaker 3: West Bank and what is called Israel. It was first

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Speaker 3: constructed by Israel in nineteen seventy one as a security barrier,

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Speaker 3: and it has been rebuilt and upgraded since it was

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Speaker 3: constructed by Israel to control the movement of the Palestinian

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Speaker 3: population as well as goods between the Gaza Strip and Israel.

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Speaker 3: So that's some history on the West Bank and just

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Speaker 3: for some context. Twenty twenty three was the deadliest year

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Speaker 3: for Palestinians since the United Nations Office for the Coordination

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Speaker 3: of Humanitarian Affairs AOCHA began recording casualties in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and five. Since the Gaza genocide began, Israel has stepped

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Speaker 3: up military raids in the West Bank, where violence had

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Speaker 3: already been surging for over a year. UN records show

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Speaker 3: that Israeli forces or settlers have killed hundreds of Palestinians

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Speaker 3: in the West Bank since October seventh. In twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: at least five hundred and seven Palestinians were killed, including

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Speaker 3: at least eighty one children. Between October seventh and December

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Speaker 3: thirty one, twenty twenty three, two hundred and ninety nine

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Speaker 3: Palestinians were killed in the West Bank, marking a fifty

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Speaker 3: percent increase compared to the first nine months of the year.

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Speaker 3: According to the World Health Organization, since October seventh, four

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Speaker 3: hundred and seventy four Palestinians, including one hundred and sixteen children,

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Speaker 3: have been killed in the West Bank, including occupied East Jerusalem,

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Speaker 3: and about five thousand were injured. There are many days

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Speaker 3: where Israeli forces killed Palestinians, but I'm going to refer

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Speaker 3: to a couple just to give you a general idea

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Speaker 3: of the violence the Palestinians experience. On March twenty first,

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Speaker 3: there was a day when Israeli forces killed three Palestinians

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Speaker 3: and separate incidents in the occupied West Bank, resulting in

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Speaker 3: ten Palestinians killed in the territory over a twenty four

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Speaker 3: hour period. This was reported by the Palestinian news agency WUFFA.

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Speaker 3: On April twentieth, Israeli forces killed fourteen Palestinians during a

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Speaker 3: raid in the occupied West Bank, including an ambulance driver

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Speaker 3: who was killed as he went to pick up wounded

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Speaker 3: Palestinians from a separate attack by violent Israeli settlers. Erica

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Speaker 3: Guavera Rosas, Amnesty International's director of Global Research, Advocacy and Policy.

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Speaker 1: Said under the cover of the l Lentist bombardment and

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Speaker 1: atrosty crimes in Gaza, Israeli forces have unleashed unlawful lethal

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Speaker 1: force against Palestinians and the occupied West Bank, carrying out

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Speaker 1: unlawful killings and displaying a chilling disregard for Palestinian lives.

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Speaker 1: These unlawful killings are in blatant violation of international human

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Speaker 1: rights law and are committed with impunity in the context

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Speaker 1: of maintaining Israel's institutionalized regime, the systematic oppression and domination

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Speaker 1: over Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: Because Ava has experience in both cluds in the West Bank,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask what she witnessed while in the

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Speaker 3: West Bank. Here's Ava telling us about her experience.

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Speaker 4: Specifically, I was working with the International Solidarity Movement, which

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Speaker 4: is the same group I worked with when I was

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Speaker 4: in Palestine twelve years ago. And that's basically exactly what

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Speaker 4: it sounds like. It's a vaguely kiss androsocialist and our

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Speaker 4: Communists informed assembly of most the internationals with this s

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Speaker 4: mattering of Palestinians and a couple Israeli activists. I was

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Speaker 4: in the West Bank this round from the end of

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Speaker 4: January until I came to Gaza, which was halfway through April,

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Speaker 4: so basically two and a half months. Most people who

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Speaker 4: volunteer there, it's anywhere from like two or three weeks

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Speaker 4: to two or three months. Because of tourist visa lasts

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Speaker 4: that long, and that's usually the most you can expect.

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Speaker 4: During the time I was there, ism and other solidarity

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Speaker 4: organizations got to be a topic of much discussion in

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Speaker 4: the Israelikan essets, as they got very excited about the

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Speaker 4: dangerous anarchists in the South. There's a lot of interesting

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Speaker 4: converisons between the West Bank and Gaza.

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Speaker 3: Palestinian people are divided by the State of Israel into

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Speaker 3: two areas, with two separate governments and two different experiences

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Speaker 3: of occupation. We asked a what people in the cludsday

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Speaker 3: had to say about the situation for those living in

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Speaker 3: the West Bank, where settler colonialism spreads every single day.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I'll start by saying, when I rolled into Gaza

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Speaker 4: and met members from the Health of Ministry and like

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Speaker 4: they're like, oh, you speak in Arabic or do you

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Speaker 4: learn Arabic? And I was like in the West Bank

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Speaker 4: and they're like, oh, it's so hard there, and I

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Speaker 4: was like really and they're like yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 4: mean obviously like the war, which is what they call

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Speaker 4: the genocide you usually hear.

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Speaker 5: Too has been very hard.

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Speaker 4: But like before that, like they have to live under

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Speaker 4: a different version of occupation or direct version of occupation

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Speaker 4: every day. And I thought that that just like touched

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Speaker 4: something intense in me and like was really like a

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Speaker 4: big I don't know, it just affected me a lot.

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Speaker 4: But as far as like comparisons, there are parts of

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Speaker 4: the West Bank that feel independent, that you feel like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I'm in an area that is, you know, where ostensibly

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Speaker 4: are not supposed to see Israelis, and if they are there,

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Speaker 4: they're like my friend who just lives in you know,

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Speaker 4: lives with her husband who's Palestinian, and they hang out

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Speaker 4: there and are fine most of the time. But a

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Speaker 4: lot of these areas that I spent al most of

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Speaker 4: my time are areas where there's more direct contact constantly

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Speaker 4: between settlers, soldiers and the Palestinian community who are often

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Speaker 4: in those areas like we are in rural and it's

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Speaker 4: like a very different scale of genocide. I often talk

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Speaker 4: about that as like a silver genocide, and this is

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Speaker 4: a faster genocide here in Gussa.

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Speaker 5: But it's like no less horrible.

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Speaker 4: It ends up being like a person, a person and

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Speaker 4: like parcel of land, a parcel of land. Palestinian heard

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Speaker 4: of sheep, is Raeli heard of sheep, herd of sheep,

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Speaker 4: and it sounds like very parallel, except that the Palestinians

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Speaker 4: have been shepherding there for generations or hundreds of years.

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Speaker 4: And the settlers there, some of them many most of

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Speaker 4: them are like teenagers who are dropouts and like get

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Speaker 4: in trouble all the time, and then they're brought up

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Speaker 4: there as community service. And some of them know how

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Speaker 4: to shoprund and some of them don't, but they use

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Speaker 4: it as an opportunity to graze their animals on like

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Speaker 4: Palasinian wheat fields.

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Speaker 3: Settler colonialism isn't just a vague concept or a way

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Speaker 3: of looking at the past in Palestine. It's something that

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Speaker 3: happens almost every single day. The violent displacement of Palestinian people,

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Speaker 3: which began with the Nekba, has never really stopped, and

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Speaker 3: the families in the West Bank experience their own nekbas

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Speaker 3: every time their land is stolen. That's why volunteers like

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Speaker 3: Ava go there to be in solidarity with the Palestinian people.

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Speaker 3: We asked Ava what the process of appropriation looks like

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Speaker 3: on the ground.

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Speaker 4: They stand somewhere, get confrontational with the Palestinians, with the

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Speaker 4: international and Israeli solidarity activists. They get the police to

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Speaker 4: and soldiers who arrest people and harass people. They occasionally

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Speaker 4: fire at and sometimes kill or somearely injure Palestinians, less

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Speaker 4: commonly at Jena or it was really octivists after the

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Speaker 4: seventh all across the West Bank. Initially a lot of

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Speaker 4: the settlers, as I understand I responded by kind of

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Speaker 4: clamping down security concerns, and then very quickly turned it

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Speaker 4: into an opportunity for attack and turned up at villages

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Speaker 4: like the village of Zenuta and just were like which

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Speaker 4: had like got about one hundred families, and was like,

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Speaker 4: you don't leave, We're going to kill you all. And

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Speaker 4: so people left and it was a credible threat, and

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Speaker 4: they did kill a lot of people. I think that's

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Speaker 4: the largest village I've heard of recently. They disappeared other places.

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Speaker 4: People ran away and their homes were destroyed, their animals

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Speaker 4: were taken. People come back and their cars get torched.

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Speaker 4: They get arrested on no charges and held for longer

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Speaker 4: than ever, and in many cases or torture to death.

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Speaker 4: I have a friend and comrade that I organized up

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Speaker 4: a little bit who was in Janine at the start

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Speaker 4: right after October seventh, and she witnessed truly horrific you know,

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Speaker 4: targeted killings by drone strikes and other things, and basically

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Speaker 4: fled south so she would be okay and physically. So

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00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 4: that's some of what has happened. Most of the villages

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Speaker 4: that historically have had the like nonviolent weekly protests, which

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Speaker 4: a lot of people who in the past and volunteered,

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Speaker 4: like as you know internationals will have experience with, and

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Speaker 4: like there's a lot of the popular images of like

385
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Speaker 4: youth in Kafia's drawing stones at some of those sites.

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Speaker 4: Since October seventh, almost all of the villages stopped as

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Speaker 4: far as I know, because it was too dangerous.

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Speaker 5: When I arrived, I was told all of the villages

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Speaker 5: had stopped.

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Speaker 4: But then we found out part way that there was

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Speaker 4: a village that was having protests kofor Katum in the

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Speaker 4: northern half of the West Bank, and it turns out

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Speaker 4: when I went there, they'd never stopped.

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Speaker 5: They protested each week.

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Speaker 4: They did scale back with their goals were because whereas

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Speaker 4: in the past they had been many of them had

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Speaker 4: been shot with live ammunition like twenty two caliber rifles.

398
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Speaker 4: Since the seventh it basically became all lave of ammunition,

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Speaker 4: and only by the grace of God or luck were

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Speaker 4: none of them murtyered in that time because the soldiers

401
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 4: were not shooting at ankles as is the conventional guidance.

402
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 4: I saw videos of them shooting into buildings, into homes,

403
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Speaker 4: shooting at head height, things like that, And like the

404
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 4: week before I went, the guy was shot in the

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Speaker 4: face and he only survived because it deflected so down

406
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 4: through his johns did it into his skull. So they've

407
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: experienced a lot of severe oppression there. There's been hundreds

408
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: killed in the West Bank just since October seventh. There

409
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 4: is active fighting in parts of the north of like

410
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Speaker 4: kind of Jinine and I think until Karen and some

411
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 4: other places between some armed resistance and Asurai soldiers. But

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Speaker 4: it's definitely not at the same scale as in Lazza,

413
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Speaker 4: and there aren't like active bombs falling on people. But

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Speaker 4: it's you know, still murderous. It's still driving people out,

415
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 4: it's still squeezing people to they either lash out or leave.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's it honestly sounds like it just a

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Speaker 3: repeat in some way of the Nekaba, you know, like

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Speaker 3: that's just what happened. It is a little maybe a

419
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: little slower, like you said, like a slower genocide, right, yeah,

420
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Speaker 3: it never really stopped. It's been a slow genocide for

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Speaker 3: like seventy six years. In addition to ongoing colonization, the

422
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 3: economic conditions in the West Bank make life hard for

423
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Speaker 3: people there. But this does not stop people in the

424
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Speaker 3: West Bank from being in solidarity with the people of Ze.

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Speaker 4: When I was in the West Bank, I will also say, like,

426
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Speaker 4: and I've shared this with many people here on Gaza,

427
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Speaker 4: like I would be in a tiny one bedroom house

428
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Speaker 4: who are very poor. Like people's incomes disappeared after the

429
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Speaker 4: Seventh That's another thing. Like a lot of people made

430
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 4: their money by traveling to cities to work, by working

431
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 4: at settlements, things like that. After the seventh roads were

432
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 4: shut down, people couldn't move. Palestinian workers were not allowed

433
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 4: in settlements, not allowed to cross into forty eight. So

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Speaker 4: everybody's struggling. But like people are spending twenty four to

435
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 4: seven with like Algerzeerra or like other Palestinian or Palestinian

436
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 4: coverage of what's happening in Gaza, like people are right

437
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: there when Ramadan started, I was there doing the of

438
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 4: the Ramadan, Like people are like, I'm so looking forward

439
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: to feeling hunger along with Gaza, and like that was

440
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 4: another aspect of hearing from the first Gasms crossing into Gaza,

441
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 4: like saying like, oh, it's so hard over there. We're

442
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: with them, Like I think there's a lot of attempts

443
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 4: from the Israelis, from liberal Zionists in the US, from

444
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 4: the state and everything to be like good Palestinian, bad Palestinian,

445
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 4: and like all the Palestinians are, you know, like they

446
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: might not all agree politically, Like there's many different positions

447
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 4: on everything, just as there are many positions and everything

448
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: in every community. There's a lot of them that they

449
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 4: between them. And that was another reason I was really

450
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 4: excited to come from the West Bank and bring like

451
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 4: some olive oil and other gifts on behalf of the community,

452
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 4: because people need to know how much they are loved

453
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 4: and thought of. On the other side, I find it's

454
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 4: sad and beautiful how united of a people are the

455
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: Palestinians across the tremendous distance of a and also incredibly

456
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 4: short distance of apartheid and occupation that they can't see

457
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 4: each other or visit each other, but they feel for

458
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: each other and are with each other in their hearts

459
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 4: and just kind ofrects me a little bit.

460
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 5: It's also nice to be near the sea.

461
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 4: I haven't yet seen the sea, but my friend was

462
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 4: here very close and could see it from their house.

463
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 4: I just feel being close to the sea and like

464
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: see the sunsets, and that's so incredibly beautiful and sad

465
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 4: too because most Palestinians don't get to see the sea.

466
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 3: And that's going to be the end of part one.

467
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 3: In part two, Ava tells us what the process was

468
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: like traveling from the West Bank until Les, and she

469
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 3: details her experience being on the ground to the So

470
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: please tune in to tomorrow's episode to hear more from Ava.

471
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 3: Until then, Rerepalace Done.

472
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

473
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

474
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

475
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

476
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: We're back for part two in our conversation with Ava.

477
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: When we left off, Ava was describing her experience in

478
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: the West Bank. I wanted to know what it was

479
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: like traveling into lensday Drapha, in particular from the West Bank.

480
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: So now we are going to jump back into that conversation.

481
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: What was that process of even entering what like from

482
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: the West Bank? So there is no direct way for

483
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: the west thing.

484
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's hilarious because, like you know, like

485
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 4: the conventional wisdom is like, oh, the entire land of

486
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 4: Palestine is like smaller in New Jersey, but you don't

487
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 4: really notice it until like I am in Yaffa, I'm

488
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 4: in Tel Aviv, I am like thirty kilometers or something

489
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 4: from Gaza. I am in the West Bank. I am

490
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 4: so close, but you have to go a long way,

491
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 4: over a long through a lot of like logistical hurdles

492
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 4: together just kind of like any kind of travel in

493
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: the West Bank or any kind of occupied space. But

494
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 4: basically my journey looked like leaving Masafriata, the area villages

495
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 4: in the south Huborn Hills or southern West Bank, going

496
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 4: north to from Allah, crossing into Koudes and then hanging

497
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 4: out and then taking and I got to be in

498
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 4: the Goods for Eed, which was amazing to see that,

499
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 4: but then hopping on a bus and riding all the

500
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: way down to a lot like a kind of a

501
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 4: horrible tourist town at the southern end of forty eight,

502
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 4: then cut a bus into Tapa on the Egyptian side

503
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: in Sinai. Crossing took forever, so I spent basically twelve

504
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 4: hours overnight circuling the Sinai, which wasn't my original pan,

505
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: but it's what happened. And then I went to Cairo,

506
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: and I spent some time in Cairo. I got there

507
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 4: a little bit early. Our entry was delayed, so I

508
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: ended up having some basic chirot to do compass, which

509
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 4: was fine and good, and then went in with a

510
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 4: UN convoy, which is really the only way that you

511
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: can go in crossing the northern Sinai. There's a lot

512
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 4: of checks with Egyptian officials without then you get to

513
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: the border, go through a bunch of checks with Egyptian officials,

514
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: then you cross over have a comparatively fewer but still

515
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 4: plenty checks with Gazan officials. I also almost cried like

516
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 4: looking at a Palestinian seal crossing in, because I was

517
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 4: like getting a stamp in my passport the Palestinian authority

518
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: in Gaza, because I was like, I've never like it's

519
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 4: always every court of entry into Palestine is otherwise controlled

520
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 4: by the Israelis. This is like the only one that

521
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 4: is under Palestinian control. Even if it's like Palestinian control

522
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 4: in a giant open air prison, it's like still something

523
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 4: under And then we're inside and I have been working

524
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 4: and you know, driving and in cars and movement is

525
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 4: pretty limited for security reasons. The murdering of the World

526
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 4: Central Kitchen workers that happened not long before I came,

527
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 4: when like basically a targeted drones strike took out three

528
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 4: vehicles and six four seven people. Still very unclear reasons,

529
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: but it's not an accident, maybe not directed from the top,

530
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 4: but very scary. So there's a lot of controlled movements,

531
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 4: so basically you have to kind of have a preapproved

532
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: plan for where you're going to go and what you're

533
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 4: going to do when you're going to move. But yeah,

534
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 4: there's a lot of there's for a number of international

535
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 4: aid workers here right now, and I'm really privileged to

536
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 4: work with mostly Palestinian ones, but a few good internationals too.

537
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 3: I wanted to get Avia's perspective about social media and

538
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: the actions of college protesters, how much coverage of the

539
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: protests actually gets to Palestinians.

540
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 4: I was watching coverage with one of the doctors here

541
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 4: of campus protests and other international protests just this afternoon.

542
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: People are talking about it. People are talking about global

543
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: resistance and support. I don't know how representative that is

544
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 4: outside of that space. Like I interact with a lot

545
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: of members of the public who are not healthcare workers,

546
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: but most of my conversations are with healthcare workers. I

547
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 4: do speak a little bit of Arabic, but not at

548
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 4: like a deep conversational level, like enough to do some

549
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: basic assessments and pleasantries and you know, meet my needs.

550
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 4: A lot of people are aware and are feeling hopeful

551
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 4: in this mode moment with the negotiations, in part because

552
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: of the international pressure. It's interesting a lot. I feel

553
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 4: like there's a lot more hopefulness in Gaza than I've

554
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 4: experienced just talking with people that I experienced in the

555
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 4: West Bank, and I think that partly that might be

556
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 4: the moment, but also I think it's partly sometimes in

557
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 4: the fact they noticed in the West Bank too, where

558
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 4: it's like.

559
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 5: It's horrible and horrifying and terrifying.

560
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 4: To be in the eye of the storm or to

561
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 4: be in the storm, but it's like you're in it

562
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 4: and you don't have to imagine it elsewhere, if that

563
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 4: makes sense. When that all started, like I tried to

564
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: plug in as best as I could with you know,

565
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 4: protest movements around the States, and as I'm sure a

566
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 4: lot of people with maybe you and a lot of

567
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 4: people might be listening, could like resonate with. It felt

568
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: very like exciting to have that much motivation or that

569
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 4: many people caring about Palestine, but also really inadequate and

570
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 4: really be hopeless, just feel like you're throwing yourself against

571
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 4: a wall and nothing's going to change, and feels really hopeless.

572
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 4: And in the West Bank I had Palestinian activists say

573
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 4: I think this has proven that no protest movements do anything,

574
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 4: but like in this moment and in this location, I

575
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: don't hear that, and I don't believe that that's the case.

576
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 4: I think that her test movements have a limited capacity

577
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 4: to change those people in the policies and just those

578
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 4: people in power that said it's so little, so late

579
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 4: as far as like any kind of political change in

580
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 4: the West and in the US and in Europe, like today,

581
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: I visited a cemetery that was built by like a

582
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: guy and his volunteers he worked with since October seventh,

583
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 4: and like visited the site of the remains of his family.

584
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 4: What remains were covered and of like another person's remains

585
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 4: of her family, and just like a field of some

586
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 4: quality and a lot of just like pavers stones just

587
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 4: thrown down with names written on them in the sand,

588
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 4: surrounded by tent encampments, with children fighting to water the

589
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 4: plants in order to get a couple of shekels their nation.

590
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 4: Like it also really really sucks, and the fact that

591
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 4: it's gotten to this point is unimaginably horrific.

592
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: Ava had been on the ground and helping in what

593
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 3: little remains of Lesa's hospitals. This is what she had

594
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 3: to say about that experience.

595
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 5: There is no space.

596
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 4: Most of the sickest and most seriously injured patients are

597
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 4: treated on the floor because there's no space, and they

598
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 4: were brought in screaming, bleeding, dying or dead. First few days,

599
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 4: I saw several people die on the floor, you know,

600
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 4: saw several bodies on the floor. It's incredibly hard space.

601
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 4: Most of the difficulty that I have seen, like I

602
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: said before, has not been direct violence from the genocide,

603
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 4: such as a missile falling, such as shrapnels, such as conclastiforce,

604
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 4: such as gunshots. I've seen all of those, but that

605
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 4: has not been the majority of what I have seen.

606
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 4: The majority of what I have seen is children who

607
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 4: do not have access to their anti seazure medications. So

608
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 4: the child comes in in what's called status apolypticus, which

609
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 4: is a seizure that lasts longer than thirty minutes, and

610
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: it's gotten to a point where it's self reinforcing and

611
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 4: it can't be stopped easily, and often it can be

612
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 4: easily fatal, even with critical care resources. I have seen

613
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 4: children who whose parents had to sitch to a different

614
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,439
Speaker 4: form of a medication and with a different dosing and things,

615
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 4: and that got confusing because they were either like find

616
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: someone who's bringing in medication, or like find it from

617
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 4: another place and it's not written in Arabic and it's

618
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,479
Speaker 4: not clear, and so they end up getting a wrong dose.

619
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 4: It's like that on the shot is now the only

620
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 4: provider of dialysis in there. There's another hospital that provides,

621
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 4: but everywhere is so overly, there's way too many people

622
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 4: drawing on those resources that they're having to run people

623
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 4: shorter periods of time, more spread out schedule, so people

624
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: get critically sick. It's like a lack of clean water

625
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 4: because of destruction of infrastructure, because of mass displacement, because

626
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 4: of a extended period where in the Israelis were uh

627
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 4: and the Egyptians were preventing flow of clean water resources

628
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 4: into Gaza. So children, adults are getting hepatitis, a turning

629
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 4: yellow with jaundice, having persisting diarrhea, dehydration, incredibly high rates

630
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 4: of septic shock, and severe systemic infection due to all.

631
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 5: Kinds of untreated conditions.

632
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 4: Because it's so much work and so dangerous for people

633
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 4: to access care, let alone just live that, people put

634
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 4: things off till they're literally dying. It's not a stable situation,

635
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 4: but it's like a tenuously like I said, hanging on

636
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 4: by a thread situation.

637
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 5: And again I just I am.

638
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: I am terrified of what will happen if then everybody

639
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 4: has to relocate again, because it's going to be like

640
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 4: people not going back to square one, It'll be going

641
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 4: you know, backward in the whole new depths of pain

642
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 4: and suffering because like if they're pushed out of Raa

643
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 4: to han Uness, it'll be too an already devastated city

644
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: with now tent cities and people trying to.

645
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 5: Rebuild a hospital where there is no water infrastructure.

646
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: Despite the terrible suffering, Ava was able to find time

647
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: to connect with her faith and her heritage while she

648
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: was in las.

649
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 4: I am also Jewish. That is not the reason I

650
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 4: am here, but it is not not a reason that

651
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 4: I am here. And during like the first few months

652
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 4: since the seventh of October, Jews took up a lot

653
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 4: of space in protest movements, and I think for good reason,

654
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 4: because frankly, white supremacy and a time with simi Arab

655
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 4: anti Palestinian bias and people not knowing what to think

656
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 4: or do about Palestine, and so having voices of Jewish

657
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 4: Americans saying like, no, actually, this is bad, Like you

658
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 4: can all see that and just go ahead and acknowledge

659
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 4: it's bad and we can move forward. I think is important.

660
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 4: That said, I think that the voices of Jewish people

661
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 4: the voices of white people. Not all the Jews are white,

662
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 4: of course, but many Jews experienced whiteness and do not

663
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 4: generally experience the Islamophobia anti Arabias, although planet some do.

664
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 3: Here's a voice note Ava shared with us after a

665
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: long day at the hospital in the Deafa.

666
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 4: Aaker our house, I made some soup with noodles and

667
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 4: some beans are food sawba scandals. For the first time

668
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 4: in a long time, I find myself interestingly less estranged

669
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 4: from my practice than I have been. It feels very

670
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 4: in line with my faith, practice and my ethics to

671
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: be here, and that feels good. And it's been the

672
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 4: first time in a long time that I've felt like lighting.

673
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 4: There's been several times that people have asked me my

674
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 4: faith and I've answered I'm Jewish. And some of them

675
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 4: were interested or excited, some of them were surprised or confused.

676
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 4: Most were like, yeah, no problem. And obviously nobody has

677
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 4: said anything negative about me for that, or for being

678
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: American for that matter. My experience of Palestinians continues to

679
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 4: be of the most understanding, welcoming and people in hospitable

680
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 4: people and people most capable of holding complexity. People here

681
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 4: obviously are not fans of the US, fans of the

682
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 4: State of Israel, not fans of Most of their experience

683
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 4: of Jews but have no problem with people from the

684
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: US or people who are Jewish.

685
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 5: And that much is my experience in the last bank.

686
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 4: So there's that I've been offered people's foods so many times,

687
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 4: and I consistently decline, except when I've just fed them

688
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 4: and I eat something, and then I'm like, that's enough,

689
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 4: thank you.

690
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 5: I don't know.

691
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 4: It's a really magical place and a really hard place

692
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 4: to be, and I'm grateful I.

693
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 5: Get to be here.

694
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: It's obvious how much help there is great, but to

695
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: give the people a pleasant With their hospitals bombed and

696
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: their doctors killed, they desperately need medical help. But she

697
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: says they have given her help as well.

698
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 4: And I think it's really important, like you say, to

699
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: be focused on the people who are experiencing the genocide

700
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 4: and are assisting the genocide, because truly, in no small part,

701
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 4: I came to Palestine hoping to be, you know, to

702
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 4: do something to help, and also to be reinspired. Because

703
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 4: Palestinians are experts in resisting colonialism, experts in resisting genocide,

704
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 4: experts in maintaining whatever can be considered hopefulness towards the

705
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,880
Speaker 4: future beyond occupation and colonialism. It is not fair that

706
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 4: Palasinians have to bear that burden of maintaining that kind

707
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 4: of optimism and resilience and all that kind of stuff

708
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 4: in the face of all the horrors that they've experienced,

709
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 4: like nobody should have to experience that.

710
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 3: We then asked Ava what the impact of solidarity actions

711
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 3: around the world have on the people of Palestine.

712
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 5: I think it is important to talk.

713
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: I think it's really unsatisfying kind of activism, as many

714
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 4: kinds of activism are, because it's hard to convince people

715
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 4: who are already decided they're against you, and it's also

716
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 4: and painful and exhausting and usually not helpful. And also

717
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 4: it doesn't feel particularly helpful just to like rev up

718
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 4: people that do agree with you. But I think that

719
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 4: people continuing to show up and not letting it rest,

720
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 4: not letting that energy die, not letting this administration feel

721
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 4: like anyone's forgotten about the ways that they failed. Also, BDS,

722
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 4: please learn about Boycopa investment and instinction. The Israeli government

723
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 4: also really is scared of that they view it as

724
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 4: terrorism to do more of it. Not saying that people

725
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,760
Speaker 4: should do terrorism, but do BDS, which is not terrorism.

726
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 3: Decidedly no I'm glad you brought that up, because that's

727
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: what the students are protesting. They want their universities to divest.

728
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 5: I do think that people should learn more about BDS

729
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 5: because a lot of the public knowledge and information promoted

730
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 5: about BDS stuff is different from it. And that's fine.

731
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 4: I think that Starbucks and McDonald's and all these other

732
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 4: companies that are actually not BDS targets being scared to

733
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,879
Speaker 4: be associated with Israeli occupation state is also good. Don't

734
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 4: get so much on a high horse about colonialism. Also

735
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 4: learn about like the colonial history and reality of North

736
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: America and try to work towards like supporting antipeclinial struggle there,

737
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 4: because it, to me feels like the utmost of hypocrisy

738
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 4: to be like you know, and the last ongoing occupation

739
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 4: in the world and ignore the occupation that you might

740
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 4: be living on and benefit from. Personally, I think that

741
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 4: I think it insulates. I think it does important work

742
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 4: towards building international solidarity and building anti colonial resistance around

743
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 4: the world to talk about the interconnection between different kinds

744
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 4: of colonialism and anti clinial struggle, and it also insulates

745
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 4: our movements against claims of anti Semitism and other things

746
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 4: to be like. No, it's nothing special about the Israeli State.

747
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 4: Israeli State is a really bad example of settler colonialism

748
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 4: as is unit. It sits as is Canada and be

749
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 4: able to talk about all of those things as different

750
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 4: sides of the same kinds of like genocidal systems.

751
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 3: In addition to sharing her impressions of Palestine with us,

752
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: Ava also shared some moments of her day to day

753
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: life there. These small moments of joy are something that wore,

754
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: genocide and violence try to take from Palestinian people, and

755
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 3: so the experience of joy is a form of resistance

756
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: in itself.

757
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 4: I am here in a tiny courtyard. There are birds

758
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 4: chirping you can see, or some sounds of the street.

759
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 4: I can see some flowers and beautiful plants, next to

760
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 4: an incredibly fancy house that a family fled from and

761
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 4: is now renting to the organization I'm working with and

762
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 4: in turn housing also another family of one of the

763
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 4: doctors here. And so it feels so strangely peaceful, very

764
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 4: confusing to the senses. Anyway, that's enough for now. I'm

765
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 4: signing off by.

766
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: If there's anything that you want people to know that

767
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 3: we haven't seen, or like that hasn't been being showed.

768
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: Like I know, the actual atrocity is far, far greater

769
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: than the snippets we're seeing. But I guess, having been

770
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 3: on the ground, what is something that maybe you want

771
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: people to know that we aren't getting across on our phones.

772
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 4: I guess the best way I can answer that is, like,

773
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 4: it's not particularly original, but remembering that cousins are just people,

774
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 4: and they're living their lives and trying to exist.

775
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 5: They're just people, and.

776
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 4: Everyone and everything that they've known has been irrevocably altered,

777
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 4: whether they've been murdered, seriously injured, had their entire family

778
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 4: taken from them and never recovered. All the landmarks they

779
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 4: grew up around, all the trees that they hung out under,

780
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 4: all the places that they prayed and ate and got

781
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 4: into trouble, everything has gone. And thirty some thousand murdered,

782
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 4: sixty some thousand injured does not represent any part of

783
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: anywhere near the majority of the horror that people are experiencing.

784
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 4: But I think it's worthwhile remembering that, and also that

785
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 4: numbers are not at all representative, and also just that

786
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 4: like some people are political here, some people aren't critical,

787
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 4: and most of them they'll getty dam I just want

788
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 4: to live.

789
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: It Could Happen years a production of cool Zone Media.

790
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: Well more podcasts and cool Zone Media. Visit our website

791
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

792
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or where every was in the.

793
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 6: Podcast It Could Happen Here. That's the podcast that you're

794
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 6: listening to. I'm your host, Nia Wong. It's a podcast

795
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 6: about things falling apart and putting them back together again.

796
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 6: This is a very very immediate falling apart and then

797
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 6: trying to put it back together again. Episode Today we're

798
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 6: talking about something we haven't really talked about on the

799
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 6: show very much, which is the music industry and the

800
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 6: absolute fiasco that is streaming services within it. And here

801
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 6: to talk with me today are two people who are

802
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 6: trying to fix some of those problems. And those two

803
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 6: people are Simon and Alex who are co founders and

804
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 6: worker owners of a new platform project initiative many such

805
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,479
Speaker 6: words called MIRLO. And yeah, both of you two, welcome

806
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 6: to the show.

807
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 5: Thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

808
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, excited to be on here.

809
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 6: Yeah. So I'm excited to talk with you both first

810
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 6: about sort of the issues with the existing sort of

811
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 6: market for music distribution, because there's been over the last

812
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,280
Speaker 6: really twenty years, it's been a sort of seismic shift

813
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 6: in how music distribution has functioned from a model that

814
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 6: was previously largely built on things like record sales to

815
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 6: the sort of streaming platforms.

816
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 8: So, yeah, can you talk about what the issues you.

817
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 6: See with the sort of current model are and how

818
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 6: that kind of led you to do something different?

819
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 8: Sure?

820
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean for me, that's the story of me

821
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 5: growing up with music, you know, because I was born

822
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 5: in the nineteen eighties, so you know, my first connection

823
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 5: to you know, to music was through playing in my

824
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 5: elementary school band, learning the trumpet and then the trombone,

825
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 5: but also you know, beginning to buy CDs and I remember,

826
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 5: I think it might have been will Smith's Big Willie

827
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 5: Style or whatever that like in the early nineties. I

828
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 5: think was the first CD that I bought. But you know,

829
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 5: that was how I, you know, music came into my world.

830
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 5: There were also some cassette tapes too, I think, like

831
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 5: when I was younger, it was cassette tapes and by

832
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,320
Speaker 5: the time I was the one like, you know, spending

833
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 5: my allowance money. It was CDs. But then you know,

834
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 5: by the end of the decade, by the time in

835
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 5: high school, you know, Napster happens. I was, I think

836
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 5: in middle school when that happened.

837
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 6: So we should explain what napster is, because I think

838
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 6: we've outreached a point where it faded.

839
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 5: Napster is a big deal because all of a sudden,

840
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 5: I can speak from my you know, memory of it

841
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 5: as a twelve year old or whatever. I was probably

842
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 5: fourteen maybe when when when Napster was a thing. I

843
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 5: remember going over to my neighbor's house who I hung

844
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 5: out with after school a lot, and he had this

845
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 5: program on his computer where he could download any song

846
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 5: that he wanted, and it was just like this incredible,

847
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 5: mind blowing new thing. Of course, that's just from the

848
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 5: end point of the distribution, right, that's from that perspective,

849
00:50:56,160 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 5: it was this absolutely transformative expert varience. But of course

850
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 5: all of the steps that got into getting the music

851
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 5: there was putting some carts before some horses, you know,

852
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 5: and a lot of it was you know, getting there

853
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 5: via unauthorized leaks or other ways that because it was

854
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 5: all of a sudden, so simple to share the physical

855
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 5: sounds through the new kinds of media channels that were

856
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 5: available through the Internet obviously and through software. The folks

857
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 5: at Napster were able to really jump ahead of that

858
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 5: and in classic Silicon Valley fashion, you know, disrupt the

859
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 5: industry and all of that was really happening with musicians

860
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 5: early on, right this was even before the dot com

861
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 5: bubble burst. You know, Napster was riding that wave and

862
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 5: a big part of that sort of first arrival of

863
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 5: Silicon Valley startup technology really arriving in millions of you know,

864
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 5: living rooms and home office computers and you know all that.

865
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 5: And so I think historically, you know, with technology, this

866
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 5: really does play out that oftentimes musicians are the ones

867
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 5: that get disrupted first. And for decades this has been

868
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 5: you can look at the history of the twentieth century

869
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 5: and the history of media in the twentieth century as

870
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 5: this tension between musicians doing what they do and technologists

871
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 5: doing what they do, and capitalists using the technology to

872
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 5: extract value from the musicians, you know. And then there

873
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 5: have of course been lots of ways that musicians have

874
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 5: organized and fought back, and you know, wrote their own

875
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 5: chapters in the story, and I think that we're just

876
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 5: just starting to get to the point where that is

877
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 5: happening in this latest episode. Napster is, you know, twenty

878
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 5: five years old at this point in terms of when

879
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 5: that moment happened. And of course the reaction to Napster

880
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 5: from the entrenched music industry, which we're all consolidating under

881
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 5: these massive media conglomerates at that time, they fought back

882
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 5: kind of old school, and I remember I was in

883
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,800
Speaker 5: college when they were soon doing college kids for downloading

884
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 5: stuff on Napster, for having files on your computer that

885
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 5: you know, weren't authorized or whatever. Those were my peers.

886
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 5: You know, I didn't actually know anybody personally that this

887
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 5: was happening to, but this was, you know, this was

888
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 5: something that we were all aware of and we were

889
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,720
Speaker 5: all kind of figuring out together.

890
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 6: There's a really good Corey doctor book that's like a

891
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 6: fictionalized account of what this period was like called Pirate Cinema.

892
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 6: That is great, So if you ever want to yeah,

893
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 6: if people want to read that, it is very good.

894
00:53:29,520 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 6: It's about the sort of film version of the same

895
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 6: fight that was happening.

896
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 5: Exactly, and they were I mean, no holds barred, Like,

897
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 5: they had massive budgets for expensive lawyers, and they just

898
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 5: sent them after whoever they could, thinking that that would

899
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 5: stem the tide. And obviously that wasn't going to stop anything,

900
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 5: because what Napster signaled was this massive, technologically catalyzed paradigm

901
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 5: shift where the way that people listen to music was

902
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 5: just radically transforming before everyone one's eyes. And it took

903
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 5: the music industry side of it a little while to

904
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 5: catch up to that reality. But once they did, they

905
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 5: started trying to figure out, Okay, what are the ways

906
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 5: that we can get a cut right? Obviously if everyone's

907
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 5: just doing this illegally, and you know this is just

908
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,160
Speaker 5: if everybody is doing something illegal at the same time,

909
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 5: even we can't send enough lawyers to sue everybody out

910
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 5: of existence, so we need to figure out how to

911
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 5: make this work. And that's when you know there started

912
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,840
Speaker 5: to be experiments with other big corporate players in the

913
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 5: technology industry. I remember from my perspective, it was the

914
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 5: iTunes store. I remember ripping all of my CDs that

915
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 5: I bought in high school, like spending a whole weekend

916
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 5: just ripping them all into my iTunes library. And kind

917
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 5: of curating it and having my you know, all of

918
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 5: my MP three's and iTunes, and I had an iPod

919
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 5: and that was where I would listen to things. And

920
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 5: I didn't even really purchase a lot of the like

921
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 5: because they had ninety nine cent tracks. That was kind

922
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 5: of things like you could pay dollar and you can

923
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 5: get what you wanted. I didn't buy that much music

924
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 5: that by that point, because mostly it was transferring files

925
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 5: that I had burned from CDs. But that was how

926
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 5: the industry was kind of making its peace with this disruption,

927
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 5: was to partner with Apple, and then later Spotify comes

928
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 5: onto the scene with this promise of the Universal Jukebox,

929
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 5: Right like, we're going to build the tool that is

930
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,279
Speaker 5: going to allow for any listener to just pay a

931
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,320
Speaker 5: subscription and they can listen to anything they want on

932
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 5: the internet. Because you can hire it anything on the internet.

933
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 5: We're going to make the legal way to do it,

934
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 5: and so we're going to let people pay and we're

935
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 5: going to design all of the back end. We're going

936
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 5: to centralize it in our you know, technological systems, and

937
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 5: we're going to build this tool that can allow anybody

938
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 5: to listen to music anytime without having to in the

939
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 5: back of their mind be worried about if they're stealing

940
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 5: from a musician or if you know, they're going to

941
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 5: get sued a record label or whatever. Right so, and

942
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 5: of course the record companies were all in on that bet,

943
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 5: and that is where you know there I haven't seen

944
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 5: all of the books or whatnot, but it's very clear

945
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 5: that you know, the major labels were big you know,

946
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 5: equity owners in Spotify. So they're basically making big bets

947
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 5: on Spotify. And then the tension that has been navigated is, Okay,

948
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 5: how do they maintain the value of the catalog, the

949
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 5: back catalog that the intellectual property rights of all of

950
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 5: the recordings that throughout you know, the history of recorded

951
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 5: music they have consolidated into these you know, catalog portfolios

952
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 5: of sounds and songs. So that's valuable and they need

953
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 5: to get their piece from that, But then they also

954
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 5: need to get their piece from Spotify. The business you know,

955
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 5: continuing to exist and that subscriber revenue from people who

956
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 5: are paying for the privilege to be able to listen

957
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 5: to any song that they want at the click of

958
00:56:53,560 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 5: a button, and that has Yeah, it's created some weird Incentivesicularly,

959
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 5: the group of people at the end of the day

960
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,520
Speaker 5: that really gets left out of that are the musicians, right,

961
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 5: because throughout history, you know, the partnerships with people who

962
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 5: distribute music have been very exploitive. Right. It's like, Okay,

963
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 5: i'll give you an advance to go record your music,

964
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 5: give you all this creative control, you know, set up

965
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 5: the studio time, do all the legwork to make it

966
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 5: so you can do whatever you want as a musician.

967
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,919
Speaker 5: But then we're keeping the master recordings. You know, we're

968
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 5: keeping a percentage of every sale that you make. So

969
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 5: it does become this kind of deal where the labels,

970
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 5: over the longer term, benefit much much more than the musicians.

971
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 5: And then the deal will spotify really amplified that because

972
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 5: the labels are making sure they get their cut, but

973
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 5: they're not always making sure that the musicians get their cut.

974
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 5: And even the musicians getting their cut has to go

975
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 5: through the labels first, and so the labels have this

976
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 5: relationship with the technology company that's distributing the files themselves,

977
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 5: and that's kind of the bargain where it stayed, right

978
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 5: and then most recently that became even more amplified. It

979
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 5: sort of turned up the volume on the disparity in

980
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 5: this dynamic when Spotify made the decision to demonetize many

981
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 5: of the songs that are on the platform. So it

982
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 5: used to be that you would get some fraction of

983
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 5: a cent for every time that someone streamed your song,

984
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 5: and Spotify had this complex algorithm for determining how you

985
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 5: got paid out, and they recently tweaked that algorithm so

986
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 5: that if you don't meet a certain threshold of plays,

987
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 5: you don't get anything. So you could have your music

988
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 5: on Spotify, could be music that you worked really hard

989
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 5: and you know, even invested your own time and money

990
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 5: and resources into putting out there, and you don't get

991
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 5: a penny of it, and you don't get you say,

992
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 5: and why? And that's the starting point from a musicians

993
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 5: perspective about where things are at.

994
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 7: I think it's also interesting to think about how the

995
00:58:58,520 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 7: way those.

996
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 9: Technology systems and the way that the music distribution has

997
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 9: changed has also changed the way that music gets made.

998
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 9: So you see a lot more, you know, very big

999
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 9: name musicians releasing single tracks to big acclaim because now

1000
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 9: the incentive, and with the tweaking of the incentive, is

1001
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 9: that you.

1002
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 10: Want individual tracks that are making millions and millions of plays,

1003
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 10: so it really becomes about that rather than and you

1004
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 10: know that can be fairly value neutral, you know, album

1005
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 10: versus track or whatever, but it is really influencing the

1006
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 10: way that you know, the first twenty seconds or so

1007
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 10: of a song are the most important. So the structure

1008
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 10: of songs are changing to suit you know what, what

1009
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 10: actual music gets made because people skip the song, then

1010
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 10: it doesn't make any money. And yeah, So the way

1011
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 10: that the technology and capital and the incentives of capital

1012
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 10: have changed to actually shape the culture that we're consumed,

1013
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 10: I think it's very interesting.

1014
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, And speaking of the way that capital and capital

1015
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 6: incentives changes the structure of what you're consuming, we need

1016
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 6: to take an ad break and we are back. So

1017
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 6: I think one of the kind of leak things about

1018
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 6: this kind of era of media distribution has been how

1019
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 6: kind of staggeringly impossible it's felt to resist any of

1020
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 6: these forces, largely because you know, now you have the

1021
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 6: power effectively of these massive tech companies and then also

1022
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 6: the power of the existing sort of studio monopolies on

1023
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 6: the same side, sort of wielding a giant hammer and

1024
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 6: hammering everyone else in the line. And this is the

1025
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 6: point where I want to ask, Yeah, I start talking

1026
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 6: about what mer Low is. So can we talk a

1027
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 6: little bit about I guess first how it got started,

1028
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 6: and then we can get more into what is it

1029
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 6: and how it's attempting to change all of this.

1030
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 10: So about two years ago, now, wow, I was doing

1031
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 10: a lot of volunteering with a project called Resonate, which

1032
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 10: is a little bit of a precursor to mirror Low

1033
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 10: in a way. Resonate is trying to be a alternative

1034
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 10: to Spotify. They want to be a streaming service where

1035
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 10: you can basically just create playlists, listen to music, and

1036
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 10: just and what was novel about Resonate was that they

1037
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 10: had a payout structure where every time you played a stream,

1038
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 10: you paid a little bit more. So if you pay once,

1039
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:47,240
Speaker 10: you pay a cent, If you play twice you pay

1040
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 10: two cents, and then it would increase to.

1041
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,720
Speaker 7: Paying around a dollar. And once you paid a dollar for.

1042
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 10: A track, so you played it like nine times, you

1043
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 10: owned the track and then it was yours to pay

1044
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 10: for it indefinitely. That was cool I did somewhere there,

1045
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 10: But what became apparent quickly was again these incentive structures

1046
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 10: where if you want to do a streaming platform. You

1047
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 10: want it to be a universal jukebox. People will use

1048
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 10: it for the music that's on it, and they want

1049
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 10: to hear the music that they know. And if you

1050
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 10: want to be a universal jukebox, you have to wade

1051
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 10: into the realm of royalties. And one of the things

1052
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 10: that we didn't mention earlier is that, as far as

1053
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 10: I know, maybe it's changed in the past year or so,

1054
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 10: Spotify is still not profitable. Despite massive payouts to the CEO,

1055
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 10: Spotify doesn't actually turn a profit. It's just investment driven,

1056
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 10: and that is in large part because of the way

1057
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 10: that royalties work on songs.

1058
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 7: It's just really hard to actually make money on top

1059
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 7: of all the costs of the.

1060
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 10: Infrastructure, which was a little bit of a clue for

1061
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 10: us for not working for a bootstrapped, non VC funded

1062
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 10: work or co op with absolutely no money, it was

1063
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 10: unlikely that that would succeed. We started also looking at

1064
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,240
Speaker 10: projects that are kind of in the same space and

1065
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 10: we're a little bit more successful. That's how we got

1066
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 10: into contact with Alex and Alex I don't know if

1067
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 10: you want to talk a little bit.

1068
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 5: About Ampled, sure, Yeah, So Sion mentioned that he was

1069
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 5: coming out of Resonate. At the same time, I was

1070
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 5: coming out of AMPLE, which was a platform cooperative initiative

1071
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 5: that was started later part of the Last Second twenty

1072
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 5: eighteen twenty nineteen. I forgot exactly when I joined towards

1073
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 5: the end of twenty twenty one, and the idea behind

1074
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 5: ampled was that it was going to create essentially a

1075
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 5: monthly patronage kind of platform for musicians, so you, you know,

1076
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 5: release exclusive stuff on the platform that's yours and that

1077
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 5: you have the intellectual property rights too, and you have

1078
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 5: supporters who pay a monthly contribution to have access to

1079
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 5: that content. And so they had a little I guess

1080
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 5: it was kind of like a blog post kind of

1081
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 5: format that could you get in bed audio. You could

1082
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,280
Speaker 5: embed videos and it would go out and and email

1083
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 5: to your supporters every month, and they could log into

1084
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 5: the platform to listen to your whatever you're releasing there.

1085
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 5: I joined AMPLE because I was actually at the time

1086
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 5: coming out of some other work that I had been

1087
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 5: doing and building democratic workplaces. I had been involved in

1088
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 5: starting another project that was trying to organize itself that way,

1089
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 5: and was also working with my partner who's a therapist,

1090
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 5: to start a mental health worker cooperative at the same time.

1091
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 5: So I was deep in the worker cooperative nerd zone

1092
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 5: at that point. But I had not been playing very

1093
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 5: much music. I'm a trombonist and do jazz and improvised music,

1094
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 5: and I had taken a couple of years off really

1095
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 5: from playing and was starting to get cranky. There was

1096
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 5: just a part of me that needs to make music.

1097
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 5: That's just the part of who I am, and it

1098
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 5: was just becoming really clear to me that that needed

1099
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 5: to happen. So I was starting to look for what

1100
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 5: are some ways that I can start putting some stuff

1101
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 5: out into the world again and ideally doing that work

1102
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 5: in the spirit of cooperation, you know, and finding other

1103
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 5: people who shared my enthusiasm for the idea that doing

1104
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 5: the work together and learning how to actually run things

1105
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 5: cooperatively without you know, a management structure on top of

1106
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,479
Speaker 5: it siphoning energy away from it. And so I found

1107
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 5: Ample on the Internet and saw what the proposition was.

1108
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 5: And part of their structure at the time was that

1109
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 5: you could actually become a co owner of the platform

1110
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 5: by being an artist that was using the platform, and

1111
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 5: once you got to a certain number of supporters on

1112
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 5: the platform, then you got to be well. The governance

1113
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 5: rights involved being able to a third of the board members.

1114
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 5: It was a nine person board with three artists representatives

1115
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 5: could run for the board, and there was also sort

1116
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,600
Speaker 5: of an extra space and their discord that was sort

1117
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 5: of artist owner, you know, only kind of space to

1118
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 5: connect around that. And so yeah, once I got the

1119
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 5: number of people following my project, this was in twenty

1120
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 5: twenty two, got an email saying congratulations, you're an artist owner,

1121
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 5: and at the same time realized that the party was

1122
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 5: kind of over. I had when I arrived into the space,

1123
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:40,600
Speaker 5: I was like, Hey, everybody, what's up? And it was

1124
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 5: just kind of crickets, you know. And there were a

1125
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 5: couple of the workers who were working on it at

1126
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 5: the time, who I'm pretty sure were still volunteering their time,

1127
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 5: who had had some conversations with and gotten to know

1128
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 5: a little bit, but it was sort of a ghost

1129
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 5: ship by that point. And it turns out I was

1130
01:06:55,720 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 5: the last artist owner to join yeahs distinction exact. The

1131
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 5: platform wound down entirely at the end of twenty twenty three,

1132
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 5: and so yeah, it was maybe a few months after

1133
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 5: I had joined and started using it. I kind of

1134
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 5: had a monthly flow where I would do something, send

1135
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 5: an update, write something about what I was working on,

1136
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 5: records and trombone sounds, you know, linked to something else

1137
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,080
Speaker 5: that was on the internet, you know. And so after

1138
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 5: a few months of doing that, yeah, I got an

1139
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 5: email saying we're winding down, sorry, and that was kind

1140
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 5: of that. But by that point I had met Si

1141
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,560
Speaker 5: and we were both kind of starting to compare notes

1142
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:41,520
Speaker 5: about these respective projects that had similar goals, similar ideals,

1143
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:50,959
Speaker 5: similar interest in you know, cooperating, and realizing that neither

1144
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 5: of them was, you know, was going to be a

1145
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 5: place where we could continue the work that we wanted

1146
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 5: to do, And so we started talking about, well, what

1147
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 5: if we were going to start from scratch, what would

1148
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 5: that look like? And so I brought some other friends

1149
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 5: he'd been working with that resonate and these conversations we've

1150
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 5: just started as conversations like similar to the one we're

1151
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,880
Speaker 5: having right now, where we're starting to kind of develop

1152
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 5: an analysis together about what's going on in the music industry,

1153
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 5: what might be able to be done differently. And after

1154
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 5: a few months those conversations started turning into wait, yeah,

1155
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 5: we could actually do some of this ourselves and that

1156
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,639
Speaker 5: was when the idea of mirla really started to hit

1157
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 5: the ground.

1158
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, we will talk more about how all of it

1159
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 6: sort of came together and what the structure looks like

1160
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 6: and what it will look like after more of these ads.

1161
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 6: We are back, So let's get into this sort of

1162
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 6: meat of what near low is. So can you talk

1163
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 6: about what is sort of different about mirlaw than the

1164
01:08:57,520 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 6: other sort of platforms in the market. How is the

1165
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 6: cooperative structure work.

1166
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, So when we were looking at ways to.

1167
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:10,720
Speaker 10: Actually make a profitable business, which is unfortunately a thing

1168
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,680
Speaker 10: that you have to do if you want to or

1169
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 10: at least a revenue making business, if you want to

1170
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 10: be able to pay people, we were looking at other

1171
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 10: platforms and spaces that exist out there that do actually

1172
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 10: make money. So Patreon and band Camp have been profitable.

1173
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 10: Band Camp for a long time actually posted their earnings

1174
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 10: as a report. Then band Camp got sold, and then

1175
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 10: it got sold again, and then band Camp laid off

1176
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 10: half of their staff, including everyone who was part of

1177
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 10: the union organizing committee. And we were already like we

1178
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 10: already had a basically a prototype at that point, but

1179
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:55,439
Speaker 10: that was also a moment where we realized is like oh,

1180
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 10: we gotta go, we gotta press goo on this thing.

1181
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 10: And so what we have, what the product is right

1182
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 10: now is basically it is I would say, a lightweight

1183
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 10: clone of bandcamp. It doesn't have all the functionality with

1184
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 10: the added features of more Patreon stall subscription based things.

1185
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,879
Speaker 10: So musicians can go onto mir Low, they upload their albums,

1186
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 10: they can sell their albums as digital copies for whatever

1187
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 10: they want, for free or for money, and then they

1188
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 10: can also set subscription tiers, use it as a mailing

1189
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 10: list basically to send out updates. Two subscribers have specific

1190
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:40,280
Speaker 10: tiers that receive specific content. For example, you could have

1191
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 10: a tier that if someone subscribes, they automatically get any

1192
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 10: new release that you put on the platform. And yeah,

1193
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 10: that's basically the product. It allows music playing, but it's

1194
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 10: not as streaming service. You can't make playlists, it doesn't

1195
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:58,600
Speaker 10: do infinite streaming. The plays are basically promotional plays. So

1196
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 10: we've had two hundred and fifty artists, which includes some

1197
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 10: people who work under several names, but so two hundred

1198
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 10: and fifty entities artists who have uploaded five hundred albums

1199
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 10: to Erolo, which I don't know, I haven't done the

1200
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 10: math on what that is like listening time wise, but

1201
01:11:15,840 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 10: it's probably already more music that I could consume, and

1202
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,600
Speaker 10: we have people buying music. It's really exciting, you know,

1203
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 10: like it's not we're not we're not making enough money

1204
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 10: to bankroll anything, but it's exciting that I think we've

1205
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,800
Speaker 10: got about four hundred dollars moving through the platform every

1206
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 10: month at this point. So that's that's really cool. We

1207
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 10: need more obviously, but that goes a long way to

1208
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 10: you know, I guess confirming the ideas that.

1209
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 7: We've had so far. And there was a second part of.

1210
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 6: That question, Yeah, how does the sort of cooperative structure

1211
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 6: work now? And then we could move on to what

1212
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 6: is it going to look like when the platform is

1213
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 6: sort of more developed, more mature.

1214
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can speak to little bit. So we also,

1215
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 5: in our thinking about this, took a lot of lessons

1216
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 5: from our experiences in Ample and Resonate, also the other

1217
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 5: experiences I've had in you know, cooperative organizing structures. And

1218
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 5: one of the things that we wanted to make sure

1219
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 5: we did was we had kind of a phase one

1220
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,439
Speaker 5: and then during that phase one also kind of figure

1221
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 5: out the vision for what we want to see moving

1222
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 5: forward and how we can grow into something that's more

1223
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 5: like what we ultimately want. In other words, we didn't

1224
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 5: want to put the car before the horse was saying like, okay,

1225
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 5: let's draw out like this really spiffy multi stakeholder cooperative

1226
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 5: thing where the artists have these things and the you know,

1227
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 5: listeners have these things, and the coders have you know,

1228
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 5: you know, for starters. We just figured out who among

1229
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:54,120
Speaker 5: us is like ready to our government name to be

1230
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 5: some paper and you know, open an LLC. And that

1231
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 5: ended up being three of us who are based in

1232
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,719
Speaker 5: the United States MESI and one other working on our Jodie,

1233
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 5: and then from there the three of us were kind

1234
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 5: of the poor team that is going to build things

1235
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 5: out from here. So we're still very early stages, you know.

1236
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,519
Speaker 5: The soft launch and the platform was the beginning of

1237
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 5: this year, just a couple of months ago. We incorporated

1238
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 5: last year in November, so all of this is totally

1239
01:13:22,320 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 5: brand new, and you know, we're figuring out as we go.

1240
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 5: But the idea with the current group is that we

1241
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 5: start to practice a culture of decision making by consent.

1242
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 5: And that's this idea that particularly anything high level about

1243
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 5: you know, what the business is or how it runs

1244
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 5: is consented to by everybody in the group, and so

1245
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 5: if there's anything that any of us are a no to,

1246
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 5: you know, we're like, hold up, this isn't going to

1247
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 5: work for me. That actually is the way that we

1248
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 5: steer the ship forward. So that's been something that we've

1249
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,719
Speaker 5: been working on building together. We're working with a legal

1250
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 5: team to codify this into a sort of worker cooperative

1251
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:10,760
Speaker 5: style LLC operating agreement. You know, we're members of the

1252
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 5: US Federation of Worker Cooperatives. We've been kind of learning

1253
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:19,400
Speaker 5: from the ecosystemative ways that worker cooperative policies and procedures

1254
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:21,679
Speaker 5: can be built into the nucleus of this at the beginning.

1255
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 5: And also, the three of us each come from different places,

1256
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 5: and so we each bring really different perspectives to where

1257
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:34,640
Speaker 5: things need to go. And so that's also been a

1258
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 5: part of you know, where we're starting from is if

1259
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,559
Speaker 5: we can get enough unique perspectives into the space, build

1260
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:46,360
Speaker 5: the core practice this culture of consent where even a

1261
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 5: minority of no is a no for the whole group,

1262
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 5: and start to build that in, then that is kind

1263
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:57,000
Speaker 5: of the seed for where things go from here.

1264
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,439
Speaker 6: In terms of where things go from here. Things that

1265
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:03,439
Speaker 6: you talk about a lot is the exit to community,

1266
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 6: And yeah, I wanted to ask, can you explain what

1267
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 6: that is and what it sort of means for what

1268
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 6: this platform is going to be going forward.

1269
01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, So this idea of exit to community comes from

1270
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,599
Speaker 5: conversations that have been happening in the solid area economy

1271
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 5: world about what would it look like to support essentially

1272
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:30,479
Speaker 5: startup businesses right that the founders are aiming for a

1273
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 5: different kind of exit than how we traditionally think about,

1274
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 5: you know, startup businesses that are aiming for an exit

1275
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 5: to either get bought by a bigger company or get

1276
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,759
Speaker 5: listed publicly on a stock market and become essentially instruments

1277
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 5: of financial speculation. And that's really the only kind of

1278
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 5: pathway out. We even saw this with band Camp, that

1279
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 5: you know, this company that was internally profitable and doing

1280
01:15:57,320 --> 01:16:01,439
Speaker 5: things the way that regular old businesses to operate, you know,

1281
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 5: and releasing their financials every year and you know, really

1282
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:07,720
Speaker 5: doing it by the book, so to speak. There that

1283
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:10,280
Speaker 5: the endpoint, you know, ten ish years down the road,

1284
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 5: was getting bought by a bigger company because what they

1285
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 5: had built was valuable to Epic Games, and you know,

1286
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 5: there's been speculation about why Epic bought band camp, but

1287
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:23,000
Speaker 5: you know, whatever the reason was, it wasn't because they

1288
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 5: were taking all the boxes as a profitable business, every

1289
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 5: step with the way. That might have been part of it.

1290
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:29,800
Speaker 5: But the idea was that band camp had become something

1291
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 5: more valuable and that they could cash out. You know,

1292
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 5: I think it was two hundred and eighty something million dollars,

1293
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 5: which is a big chunk of change, and that, you know,

1294
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 5: the decision to cash out was made by the founder.

1295
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 5: There was likely other people who had input into the decision,

1296
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 5: but there was certainly wasn't you know, a team that

1297
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,799
Speaker 5: was you know, having a deliberation and making a consent

1298
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:54,160
Speaker 5: based decision about how to do that. It was one

1299
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:56,760
Speaker 5: guy and he signed the paperwork and that was it.

1300
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,439
Speaker 5: So the idea of exit to the community is essentially

1301
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 5: been an invitation to explore alternatives, alternatives that are more

1302
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,719
Speaker 5: in alignment with building the world that we're actually trying

1303
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:12,080
Speaker 5: to see. So for us, that means, you know, first

1304
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 5: of all, creating something that is financially viable, you know,

1305
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 5: that can actually support the work that it takes to

1306
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 5: both maintain the platform and maintain accountability to the people

1307
01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 5: who are using platform, particularly the musicians, so that those

1308
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,960
Speaker 5: relationships need to get built. There needs to be enough

1309
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 5: trust in order to feel like this is actually a

1310
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 5: thing worth continuing to do together. And then there's also

1311
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 5: the work of having it be essentially used enough that

1312
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 5: the math works out that the work that it takes

1313
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:49,040
Speaker 5: to sustain the platform can be supported and the work

1314
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 5: that it takes to make music can be supported, because ultimately,

1315
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 5: this is a platform that is trying to move money

1316
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 5: into musicians' pockets. So if we can pull that off,

1317
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 5: then the next step is the exit community step, which

1318
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:04,200
Speaker 5: the way I see it, would be essentially co designing

1319
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 5: a set of agreements about how the system will continue

1320
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:12,599
Speaker 5: to be tended to moving forward in ways that are

1321
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:18,479
Speaker 5: directly accountable to the people who are involved in making

1322
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 5: it go themselves. Right, So in this case, you know,

1323
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 5: we see the community as kind of broadly comprised of

1324
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 5: three different groups, not like groups of people that all

1325
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 5: hang out together and do stuff together, but like there's

1326
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 5: kind of three kinds of contributions that are getting made.

1327
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:39,439
Speaker 5: One is the people who are working on developing the software.

1328
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 5: This is an open source software project, so there's been

1329
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 5: a lot of inputs from a lot of different people.

1330
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:46,000
Speaker 5: Of that, of course, the work of maintaining an open

1331
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:49,920
Speaker 5: source software project requires resourcing, but that's one of the groups.

1332
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 5: Another group is the musicians, the people who are you

1333
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:57,639
Speaker 5: making stuff that they put on the platform. And another

1334
01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:59,640
Speaker 5: is the people who are listening and the people who

1335
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 5: are supporting with you know, with patronage, with money, right,

1336
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,400
Speaker 5: and and some people might be in all three of

1337
01:19:07,439 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 5: those categories, you know, So it's not like there's your

1338
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 5: one or the other, but those three things all have

1339
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:17,360
Speaker 5: really important and important stake in the sustainability of the

1340
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:20,680
Speaker 5: overall operations. So the exit to community step would be

1341
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:25,840
Speaker 5: essentially designing standards, protocols, agreements, whatever you want to call

1342
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:28,800
Speaker 5: it for how we do this work moving forward, and

1343
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 5: then we can get out of the way if we want,

1344
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 5: you know. So that's the other part of it. The

1345
01:19:33,320 --> 01:19:35,720
Speaker 5: other part of it, too, of an exit is how

1346
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:37,640
Speaker 5: do you make sure that the founders are whole, you know,

1347
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 5: so that it's not like we've put all this work

1348
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 5: into making something possible and then it's working and then

1349
01:19:45,240 --> 01:19:47,720
Speaker 5: everyone's like, oh yeah, screw you, get out of here.

1350
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 5: We're ready to take this on our ohs and we're

1351
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,160
Speaker 5: hoping that doesn't happen either, So figuring out that is

1352
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 5: also a part of the's what's before us. My aspiration

1353
01:19:57,400 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 5: and my vision for this is that culture of can

1354
01:20:00,400 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 5: that we're baking into the worker stage of this right

1355
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 5: now can be something that continues to be a core

1356
01:20:08,960 --> 01:20:11,080
Speaker 5: aspect of how we move forward. In other words, once

1357
01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 5: we really see who all the stakeholders are, let's come

1358
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,680
Speaker 5: up with a creative way to figure out how this

1359
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 5: is going to work that everybody can consent to them.

1360
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:20,680
Speaker 6: I think that's a good place of transition to the

1361
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 6: last thing I wanted to ask, which is you know,

1362
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 6: you've both came from projects that kind of fizzled, and

1363
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:28,479
Speaker 6: this is the thing that happens a lot of time

1364
01:20:28,520 --> 01:20:30,320
Speaker 6: with projects like this. So what is the sort of

1365
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,280
Speaker 6: plan to make sure that this is not like the

1366
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:38,560
Speaker 6: next in a pile of of people who tried to

1367
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:39,439
Speaker 6: do this that did work.

1368
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,679
Speaker 10: We've been having a lot of conversations around that because

1369
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:48,200
Speaker 10: there have been like public reflections happening about the final

1370
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:52,719
Speaker 10: years of Ampled, So there's some reflections around those things

1371
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 10: that you can find those on the internet. Well, So

1372
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 10: the things I'm thinking about is you really have to

1373
01:20:56,960 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 10: think about what it means to be successful, and.

1374
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:03,640
Speaker 7: It's possible to claim that success is.

1375
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 10: You know, we go toe to toe with band camp

1376
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 10: or Patreon and we beat them at the game of

1377
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,600
Speaker 10: being a VC funded startup, but we do it with

1378
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 10: volunteer and you know, grassroots money support. And I guess

1379
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,160
Speaker 10: that is a way of thinking of success. It's not

1380
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,599
Speaker 10: my personal way of thinking of success. So a way

1381
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 10: of thinking of success for me is more, you know,

1382
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:34,400
Speaker 10: what's the end result? What are we hoping to do?

1383
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 10: What are we hoping to prefigure? Is it a more

1384
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 10: resilient community of people who are willing to go into

1385
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 10: a next step together? And in that way, I feel

1386
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:51,959
Speaker 10: like you could say that Resonate and Ampled they fizzled,

1387
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 10: but they both created spaces where people found each other

1388
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,960
Speaker 10: and try to do the next thing. And I feel

1389
01:22:00,200 --> 01:22:05,439
Speaker 10: like that is very much the project of organizing prior

1390
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 10: to global socialism or whatever, is looking at what we

1391
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:17,240
Speaker 10: did and learning from it and moving forward and trying again.

1392
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:20,680
Speaker 7: Because we have to try again. And I feel like

1393
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:22,719
Speaker 7: that is kind of the big picture question.

1394
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 10: We have some stuff in place that we're doing to

1395
01:22:27,320 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 10: make our project a bit more resilient. The consen stuff

1396
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:33,719
Speaker 10: is part of that that Alex just described. Other parts

1397
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 10: of that is that we from the get go decided

1398
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:40,719
Speaker 10: to do things publicly and bring in people as quickly

1399
01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,760
Speaker 10: as possible. I was the original programmer for the platform,

1400
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,639
Speaker 10: but in the past month I have been the honestly

1401
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,560
Speaker 10: one of the smallest contributors to the platform. We've just

1402
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 10: had people stepping up in really incredible ways. Truly appreciate it.

1403
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 10: We've had people stepping in during this campaign. They've been

1404
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 10: making videos, they've been making art. Yeah, just the way

1405
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,040
Speaker 10: that the community is stepping in and like wanting to

1406
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:14,439
Speaker 10: be a success, I think is this great example of

1407
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 10: what it is we can achieve if we if we're

1408
01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:21,439
Speaker 10: willing to, you know, let people into the process of

1409
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 10: doing that. There are a lot of questions there about

1410
01:23:24,960 --> 01:23:28,600
Speaker 10: who and what is doing that supporting, So that is

1411
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:31,080
Speaker 10: something that we're constantly checking in on. And I think

1412
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 10: also a metric of success is who is interacting with

1413
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:39,040
Speaker 10: the platform. Especially at Resonate, they did a really good

1414
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:42,680
Speaker 10: job of bringing in the folks from Black Socialists of

1415
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 10: America were involved. There were people who had experience of

1416
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:48,680
Speaker 10: cooperation Jackson who were involved. They did a really good

1417
01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:51,760
Speaker 10: job of diversifying the crowd of people who were not

1418
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,000
Speaker 10: the standard I don't know, like open source tech people,

1419
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:58,879
Speaker 10: which is a very white, you know, susset mail situation.

1420
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 10: And we we're trying to take from those and learn

1421
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:07,680
Speaker 10: from those and thinking about what spaces we present ourselves in,

1422
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:13,120
Speaker 10: like very intentional outreach to people to open up through

1423
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:19,200
Speaker 10: cultural work, through conversations that are very local focused, to

1424
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 10: create space where we're talking about these things.

1425
01:24:22,160 --> 01:24:25,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think for me, the idea of success

1426
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 5: too has to do with our needs getting met, you know,

1427
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:34,519
Speaker 5: because Spotify is not meeting people's needs. Sorry, it's just

1428
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:36,760
Speaker 5: not I mean, I guess it's meeting some people's needs,

1429
01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:37,960
Speaker 5: not meeting very many people.

1430
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean they just fired like not literally

1431
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:44,200
Speaker 6: their entire podcasting division, but an unbelievably large number of

1432
01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 6: extreuely talented people got fired. Oh really and it yeah,

1433
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:48,840
Speaker 6: it really sucks.

1434
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:50,519
Speaker 7: That's really interesting.

1435
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:54,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, not operating at the same scale that

1436
01:24:55,000 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 5: Spotify is actually making it work matters, you know. And

1437
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,200
Speaker 5: my hope is that that, first of all, that individual

1438
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 5: artists start to see this as a place that you know,

1439
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 5: they can kind of get their crew around them, and

1440
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 5: that this can be a really a nice reliable source

1441
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:15,280
Speaker 5: of additional income in their careers, help them pay rent.

1442
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:17,160
Speaker 5: Like when I was on Ampled, you know, I was

1443
01:25:17,439 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 5: bringing in like one hundred dollars a month or something

1444
01:25:19,360 --> 01:25:22,160
Speaker 5: like that, which isn't that much because I was doing

1445
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:23,920
Speaker 5: it on a very small scale, but it made a

1446
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,080
Speaker 5: big difference in my everyday life in terms of making

1447
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 5: space to make music a part of it. And I

1448
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 5: know how I lean into that a little bit more,

1449
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 5: there could be you know, a significant chunk of change

1450
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 5: coming through something like this to support just the ongoing

1451
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 5: paying rent while making art, which is the thing.

1452
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 10: On that note, another thing that I think is worth

1453
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 10: celebrating is that in the end, AMPLE basically made two

1454
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:51,160
Speaker 10: hundred and fifty thousand dollars available to musicians and did

1455
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:54,240
Speaker 10: do what it was trying to do in a successful way.

1456
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,839
Speaker 5: This is the other thing that I want to aspire

1457
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:02,200
Speaker 5: to or you know, define success as, is our local

1458
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:07,400
Speaker 5: scenes starting to work mirror low into the way that

1459
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 5: they operate. You know, can this be something that small

1460
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 5: independent labels, artists, collectives, niche genres in different places, you know,

1461
01:26:17,439 --> 01:26:21,120
Speaker 5: DIY spaces, whatever that this can actually be a useful

1462
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:23,559
Speaker 5: tool to make the local space go and to make

1463
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,600
Speaker 5: it easier for musicians to do what they do in

1464
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 5: community in real life, you know, at the level of

1465
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 5: local and we'll see how that goes. We're just getting started,

1466
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 5: but I'm really optimistic and looking forward to continuing to

1467
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 5: pour energy into that. Yeah.

1468
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 6: So where can people go to find the platform and

1469
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 6: support it if they're interested or get involved?

1470
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we're at mirrlow dot space. That's the website.

1471
01:26:49,920 --> 01:26:51,800
Speaker 5: If you go to mirrlow dot space, you'll see at

1472
01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:54,679
Speaker 5: the very top right now, just for a a couple

1473
01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 5: more days, we've got a kickstarter going to kind of

1474
01:26:57,960 --> 01:26:59,559
Speaker 5: keep the lights on for the rest of the year.

1475
01:27:00,080 --> 01:27:03,759
Speaker 5: Be tremendously grateful for any support from anyone who's listening today.

1476
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 5: To get us, it's where I need to get over there,

1477
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 5: and also at the front page, and if you scroll

1478
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:10,840
Speaker 5: down to the bottom, there's links to email us, find

1479
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 5: us on GitHub, find our discord. There's plenty of ways

1480
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 5: to plug in and connect. Yeah.

1481
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:18,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, So hoping this all works for the best, and

1482
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:22,120
Speaker 6: hoping that there's a way for artists to create music

1483
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:25,640
Speaker 6: in ways that are sustainable and not unbelievably exploitative.

1484
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:27,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, thanks so much for having us, man, it's been

1485
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:29,040
Speaker 7: truly a pleasure.

1486
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:30,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you so much.

1487
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 6: Maybe so Yeah, yeah, and this has been It could

1488
01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:41,439
Speaker 6: happen here and find us in the usual places. Yeah. Go,

1489
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:43,800
Speaker 6: I don't know, go make trouble for the people who

1490
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 6: have what use it.

1491
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

1492
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

1493
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:53,560
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1494
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

1495
01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:04,880
Speaker 8: Hi everyone, it's me James and I'm joined by Scheren today,

1496
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:08,400
Speaker 8: and in a rare instance, we're not discussing something terrible

1497
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:10,200
Speaker 8: and sad. It seems like most of the think is

1498
01:28:10,240 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 8: serene and I talk about. But it's a fun episode today,

1499
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 8: isn't it, Shreen.

1500
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in a good mood, which is crazy to

1501
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:18,320
Speaker 3: say these days. But I'm happy to be here. I

1502
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:21,439
Speaker 3: love to be the podcast dummy. I love to have

1503
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:26,679
Speaker 3: things talk to me at and I listen too. Yeah, exactly,

1504
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 3: that's interest.

1505
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,719
Speaker 8: You've chrished it. No, we won't be taking that again.

1506
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:35,280
Speaker 8: Let's go from there. I don't want everyone to think

1507
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 8: Sharen is dummy. S Shereen, it's very intelligent. But we

1508
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:40,639
Speaker 8: are making a podcast today about touching grass. A thing

1509
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,800
Speaker 8: that some people need to do has become apparent. I've

1510
01:28:44,840 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 8: been on the internet. I think some people need to

1511
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:50,080
Speaker 8: go outside. Yeah, and even if you're not saying the

1512
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:53,719
Speaker 8: stupidest shit imaginable on Twitter, I still think it's actually

1513
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:55,600
Speaker 8: really good for you to go outside. Like I know,

1514
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:57,679
Speaker 8: this seems to be an episode I do every couple

1515
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,200
Speaker 8: of months, but every single time I have to go

1516
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 8: and do something traumatic or scary or upsetting for work,

1517
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 8: I just book a few days afterwards to be by

1518
01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 8: myself in the mountains camp and sort of just not

1519
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:12,519
Speaker 8: particularly like trying to do massive miles on a trail,

1520
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,160
Speaker 8: just being outside. And I find it's the most healing

1521
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:18,360
Speaker 8: thing for me. It's how I process all the things

1522
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:20,519
Speaker 8: that I have to see and hear about for work.

1523
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:25,360
Speaker 8: And I want you to do that too, podcast listeners. Yeah,

1524
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:26,720
Speaker 8: and Serene, I want Sreen to do it.

1525
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:30,360
Speaker 3: Nature is healing, it is, and that makes sense that

1526
01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:32,679
Speaker 3: that's where you go. It makes total sense.

1527
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:37,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think you have to be comfortable, like you know,

1528
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 8: if you're scared sleeping alone outside in a tent by yourself. Right, Yeah,

1529
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:43,000
Speaker 8: it's not going to be healing for you. And I

1530
01:29:43,080 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 8: can see that. I'm a white dude, right, and I

1531
01:29:45,000 --> 01:29:46,679
Speaker 8: go through the outdoors just like I go through everywhere

1532
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 8: else's white du You know that means that something different experiences. Yes, yes, yeah,

1533
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 8: we have. That's why social is you to think anyway.

1534
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 8: I want to talk today just about hiking or walking

1535
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 8: or rambling or hillwalking or you know, you could call

1536
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 8: it any of the things that you want, just because

1537
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 8: I think it's probably the most successible way to get

1538
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:08,200
Speaker 8: outside for most people. Right, Like I could talk about cycling.

1539
01:30:08,280 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 8: It's been a lot of my life cycling. It's expensive

1540
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:12,040
Speaker 8: and confusing for people.

1541
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 3: So in your equipment, you know, hiking, you just need

1542
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:15,960
Speaker 3: to get outside.

1543
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:19,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly, like you probably if you're able to move

1544
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 8: under your own power now, then you can probably go

1545
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 8: for a walk. I'm going to talk about equipment in

1546
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 8: the back half, but I think if you're a lot

1547
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:27,719
Speaker 8: of people seem to have a lot of questions about

1548
01:30:27,720 --> 01:30:29,760
Speaker 8: backpacking equipment, so we'll cover that. But yeah, I think

1549
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:34,080
Speaker 8: for most people, just like setting the intention of going

1550
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 8: for a walk would be a massively beneficial thing. So

1551
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:38,800
Speaker 8: I want to encourage you to do that to start

1552
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:41,400
Speaker 8: of summer. If you're in the northern hemisphere, if you're

1553
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:43,800
Speaker 8: in the southern hemisphere, it's a start of winter, you know,

1554
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,760
Speaker 8: you can still get out there. And so to start

1555
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:49,479
Speaker 8: off with, I wanted to talk about finding a route,

1556
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:52,880
Speaker 8: finding a place, picking a route to go hiking. Did

1557
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 8: you go hiking very much? I actually do.

1558
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,000
Speaker 3: I do like a hike. I like a hike. I've

1559
01:30:57,040 --> 01:30:59,560
Speaker 3: gone backpacking once and I really liked it.

1560
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:01,280
Speaker 8: Where did you go back back?

1561
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:06,599
Speaker 3: Oh high? Oh yeah wow, Yeah, that's a cute little place.

1562
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:10,120
Speaker 3: But it was so hot and I almost passed out.

1563
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:11,560
Speaker 3: I should have done it in a different day. We

1564
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:13,720
Speaker 3: should have done it a different day. But I do

1565
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:16,479
Speaker 3: love to hike. I like to be outside. I'm not

1566
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 3: like the most outdoors a person. I wish I knew

1567
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 3: how like how to make a fire or something, or

1568
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:23,160
Speaker 3: like I wish I was like a scout.

1569
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 8: There's lots of shit that you don't want to be

1570
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 8: involved within the scouting movement surin.

1571
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:28,479
Speaker 3: Oh really, okay, I take that back.

1572
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 8: Yeah yeah yeah, probably inducing behind the bus just such

1573
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:32,000
Speaker 8: a scout.

1574
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 3: Okay, I will do that.

1575
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:34,560
Speaker 8: I did not.

1576
01:31:34,720 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 3: But what I mean is like I really like being outside,

1577
01:31:37,479 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 3: and I have like the bare minimum of like equipment

1578
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 3: that I need for that kind of stuff. I used

1579
01:31:42,880 --> 01:31:45,840
Speaker 3: to get really intimidated that I didn't know as much

1580
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 3: as I thought other people did. But I don't think

1581
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 3: anyone knows as much as they think they do.

1582
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:50,519
Speaker 8: Absolutely no.

1583
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:51,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that made me feel better.

1584
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, And like the outdoors are super humbling in that sense, right,

1585
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 8: Like you think you know it all, you don't, and

1586
01:31:58,479 --> 01:32:00,920
Speaker 8: at some point you'll get humbled or so it's good

1587
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 8: to always have a bit of respect, Yeah, for the

1588
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 8: outdoors and mother nature. I've seen some people who do

1589
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:09,559
Speaker 8: not that it can end messily. Seen some people who

1590
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:11,720
Speaker 8: learn to climb on YouTube really get to grips with

1591
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 8: YouTube not being the same as going outside. I guess

1592
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:16,160
Speaker 8: if I'm starting off, if you're picking a route, and

1593
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 8: I think probably the best way to do it is

1594
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 8: I discovered this recently. Lots of these modern smartphones have

1595
01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 8: a step counter in them. Even if you don't have

1596
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 8: a fancy watch that count steps, your phone does it

1597
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,240
Speaker 8: for you. I think that's a really good way of ascertaining,

1598
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 8: like how far you walk in a regular day, right,

1599
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:35,960
Speaker 8: I was thinking about, like how far to most people walk?

1600
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 8: I don't know.

1601
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 3: I know a fun fact about me.

1602
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 8: I would love to usering.

1603
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 3: I purposely have never ever opened that app or activated

1604
01:32:44,479 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 3: it to know how many steps I walk because I

1605
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 3: know myself and I know I would get like hyper

1606
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 3: fixated on it, and I did not want to be

1607
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 3: confronted with the days that I just sit on my

1608
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 3: ass all day, you know, And so I have never

1609
01:32:57,000 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 3: ever active app.

1610
01:32:59,240 --> 01:32:59,960
Speaker 8: That's a great stree.

1611
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:02,519
Speaker 3: I'm proud of you for knowing that that wouldn't be

1612
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:04,600
Speaker 3: good for you. I mean, I just know myself it

1613
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 3: wouldn't be a good thing for me. I think it's

1614
01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:07,400
Speaker 3: a good thing for a lot of people to like

1615
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:11,720
Speaker 3: get them motivated and stuff, but sometimes it's also a

1616
01:33:11,800 --> 01:33:13,599
Speaker 3: negative to being too focused on the numbers.

1617
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:17,320
Speaker 8: And yeah, totally, especially like if you're someone who's had

1618
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 8: like a relationship with exercise, it wasn't healthy for you before.

1619
01:33:19,840 --> 01:33:21,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess that's also part of it too. That

1620
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:25,320
Speaker 3: was my experience. I'm sorry, are you are the things

1621
01:33:25,360 --> 01:33:26,479
Speaker 3: to add it just happened?

1622
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, Yeah, I'm glad that you have a good

1623
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 8: relationship with it now. But yeah, for people who you know,

1624
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:36,639
Speaker 8: if that's not for you, that's not for you. I'll

1625
01:33:36,640 --> 01:33:36,920
Speaker 8: say that.

1626
01:33:37,040 --> 01:33:38,360
Speaker 3: But I just think it's a fun fact. I don't

1627
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:40,439
Speaker 3: know anyone else that has not. Like I'm terrified of

1628
01:33:40,479 --> 01:33:42,720
Speaker 3: the app. I have not even opened it. When you

1629
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:44,840
Speaker 3: go to my health app, it says welcome, like it

1630
01:33:44,880 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 3: doesn't even you know what I mean, Like it's not Yeah.

1631
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 8: I did think you've got a brand new phone. I

1632
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:51,800
Speaker 8: was going to suggest to all trails because A it's

1633
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:53,680
Speaker 8: got a very complete list of trails, and B I

1634
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 8: noticed I had a wheelchair for yeah, I was looking

1635
01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 8: for wheelchair accessible trails for someone the other day. You

1636
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:02,800
Speaker 8: can just filter on all trails, like you can find

1637
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:05,320
Speaker 8: the ones that don't have steps or excessive rocks or something.

1638
01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 8: So like, if that's something you're looking for, I think

1639
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 8: that could be really handy. And other little tips for

1640
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 8: picking your root. If you try and set off early, A,

1641
01:34:14,520 --> 01:34:17,400
Speaker 8: you're gonna not deal with big crowds of people. Be

1642
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 8: Animals are almost always more active at dawning dusk. I

1643
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:23,200
Speaker 8: have been trail running a lot recently, and I love

1644
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 8: to trail run right when the sun's coming up. It

1645
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 8: just feels like it's nice and I see little animals,

1646
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:31,759
Speaker 8: don't see as many snakes. I like to see a snake.

1647
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:33,880
Speaker 3: The weather is probably like the best it's going to

1648
01:34:33,960 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 3: be that day. Yeah, yeah, exactly, especially as it gets hotter.

1649
01:34:37,479 --> 01:34:40,160
Speaker 8: Right like if you're not necessarily doing a lot of

1650
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 8: exercise right now, and then you go for you know,

1651
01:34:42,280 --> 01:34:43,720
Speaker 8: even a short hike in the middle of the day

1652
01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:46,360
Speaker 8: on a hot day, you can put yourself in the box.

1653
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:49,160
Speaker 8: And like I think I've heard before that like the

1654
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 8: vast majority of trail rescues are like on front country trails,

1655
01:34:52,840 --> 01:34:53,679
Speaker 8: like five or ten mins.

1656
01:34:53,680 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 3: I believe that people get confident.

1657
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,120
Speaker 8: I guess that in mind. If you're heading out in

1658
01:34:59,120 --> 01:35:02,320
Speaker 8: a little front country I would say some things to

1659
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,639
Speaker 8: bring would be we'll go over like equipment, boots, stuff

1660
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:07,280
Speaker 8: like that. If you if you're like getting more into it,

1661
01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 8: but heading out on a little first hike. If as

1662
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 8: long as you have a bag with some water and

1663
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,960
Speaker 8: a phone and some shoes that you like to wear

1664
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:17,400
Speaker 8: that they're comfortable for you, I think you'll be fine.

1665
01:35:18,040 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 8: And I think they bring a snack. Snack is always

1666
01:35:21,080 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 8: a good thing to have. It's nice to have a

1667
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:29,599
Speaker 8: little trail snack at yeah, I love a good rectangular food.

1668
01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:33,800
Speaker 8: But yeah, if you don't have water, that's like fourth

1669
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:37,160
Speaker 8: of July last year, someone didn't bring water for their dog,

1670
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 8: and I remember their dog was in like severe Yeah, no,

1671
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 8: it was one of the stupider things. But I can't

1672
01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:45,360
Speaker 8: think of a year here where I haven't been running

1673
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 8: or riding on trails and seeing someone forget to bring

1674
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 8: water for their dog terrible. I hate that.

1675
01:35:49,720 --> 01:35:52,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like I see like sometimes there's like

1676
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:57,160
Speaker 3: a communal stops for pets, but you can't count on those,

1677
01:35:57,360 --> 01:35:57,559
Speaker 3: you know.

1678
01:35:58,479 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, totally. I don't really count any of those things working,

1679
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:03,880
Speaker 8: you know, like water fountains, Like, don't be reliant up

1680
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,400
Speaker 8: on a water fountain, take a little water bottle. You'll

1681
01:36:07,439 --> 01:36:09,920
Speaker 8: be so much happier. And if you want to find

1682
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:12,160
Speaker 8: people to hike with, I've had pretty good luck with

1683
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 8: a meetup app. I used to climb by some people

1684
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:19,160
Speaker 8: from meet up here in San Diego, and like climbings

1685
01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:23,800
Speaker 8: are fairly like high trust endeavor if someone's belaying you right.

1686
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:25,879
Speaker 8: I definitely met some people there who are very capable

1687
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 8: and we had a great time. Climbing outside. Meetup seems

1688
01:36:28,320 --> 01:36:30,360
Speaker 8: to be pretty good for that kind of stuff. ARII

1689
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:34,040
Speaker 8: also often has free like I'll just take you out

1690
01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:36,600
Speaker 8: for a hike hiking sessions, and I know they have

1691
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:41,000
Speaker 8: like yeah, yeah I can. Yeah, they they seem nice.

1692
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:45,280
Speaker 8: They have like fem ones that women transferm people can

1693
01:36:45,360 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 8: go and sistudes can't go, which is fine, you know,

1694
01:36:48,360 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 8: like it's probably a nice thing for some people feel

1695
01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:52,880
Speaker 8: a little safer and more comfortable there. They have one,

1696
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:55,439
Speaker 8: so they're just open for everyone. They think that's a

1697
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,600
Speaker 8: dude's only hike, which is also fine. So those are

1698
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 8: some places to meet people. I think it's always nice

1699
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:03,360
Speaker 8: to go with someone, especially if you don't feel confident

1700
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 8: or you don't feel like the outdoors are a place

1701
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:08,680
Speaker 8: where you're like comfortable. It's nice to go with even

1702
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:11,360
Speaker 8: if it's someone who has the same degree of knowledge

1703
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:14,120
Speaker 8: and background in it as you. Like, they can help

1704
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 8: you rationalize your fears.

1705
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:18,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you're alone and like you get lost or

1706
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:23,080
Speaker 3: you feel panic, it's so much worse than if you

1707
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:25,320
Speaker 3: had like a friend with you. It only happened to

1708
01:37:25,360 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 3: me once and I was on rooms, so but I

1709
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:29,280
Speaker 3: won't get into that, but it was scary.

1710
01:37:32,760 --> 01:37:35,639
Speaker 8: Yeah, then maybe you'd leave those a home if you're

1711
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:38,640
Speaker 8: going out first tike maybe.

1712
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, you don't need those if you're by yourself, especially,

1713
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:44,800
Speaker 3: Just take it from me. Please, don't go on a

1714
01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:51,080
Speaker 3: mountain and take too many things and panic the whole

1715
01:37:51,120 --> 01:37:52,000
Speaker 3: way home.

1716
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:56,679
Speaker 8: I want to hear this story afterwards.

1717
01:37:57,000 --> 01:38:00,519
Speaker 3: It was my thirtieth birthday in twenty twenty, so everything

1718
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,679
Speaker 3: was closed. I tried to go and touch grass games

1719
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:05,160
Speaker 3: and I had.

1720
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 8: You nearly touched it with your face as you fell

1721
01:38:11,200 --> 01:38:13,839
Speaker 8: down the mountain on your shroom trip. Yeah, your thirtiest

1722
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:14,280
Speaker 8: beft is.

1723
01:38:14,360 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was crisis, I suppose anyway.

1724
01:38:17,160 --> 01:38:19,679
Speaker 6: Sorry, yeah, unreeling, Yeah, that's okay.

1725
01:38:20,240 --> 01:38:22,680
Speaker 8: You know shrims. Do you know what will not make

1726
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:24,639
Speaker 8: you have an existential crisis on top of the mountain

1727
01:38:24,680 --> 01:38:26,439
Speaker 8: on your own in the middle of a pandemic? Please

1728
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 8: tell me it is the products and services that support

1729
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:33,559
Speaker 8: this show. Unless we get a shroom sad, I would

1730
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 8: love that the stream will read your shroom sad. If

1731
01:38:36,920 --> 01:38:40,320
Speaker 8: you're in the industry, please reach out her Twitter is

1732
01:38:40,360 --> 01:38:47,599
Speaker 8: at I write. Okay, all right, we're back in fact

1733
01:38:47,680 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 8: all the psilocybin. Maybe it's still illegal.

1734
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 3: I don't think they are. Yeah, they're in Oregon.

1735
01:38:54,600 --> 01:38:58,800
Speaker 8: They are Yeah, well there you go, right, So I'm

1736
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:00,719
Speaker 8: interested to know what questions you had before you decided

1737
01:39:00,760 --> 01:39:02,960
Speaker 8: to embark on your hiking lifestyle or is something you've

1738
01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 8: always done.

1739
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 3: I mean my family and I we never really did

1740
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:09,439
Speaker 3: outdoorsy stuff, so it was something I did when I

1741
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:11,760
Speaker 3: was like finishing high school. I started to be like, wow,

1742
01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 3: I live in a place where I can go hiking,

1743
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:16,600
Speaker 3: and I've never done this before. So it was a

1744
01:39:16,680 --> 01:39:19,040
Speaker 3: learning curve. But I started when I was like seventeen

1745
01:39:19,560 --> 01:39:21,560
Speaker 3: and I got my entire family to go hiking with

1746
01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 3: me for the first time.

1747
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:23,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1748
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:27,320
Speaker 3: It was also when I was introducing my mom to

1749
01:39:27,400 --> 01:39:29,800
Speaker 3: like Zoomba. That was the vibe back then. So I

1750
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:33,200
Speaker 3: was trying to get active. But I think the most

1751
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 3: important things are I mean, I'm a big skincare person.

1752
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,640
Speaker 3: I think some protection cannot be understated, especially if you

1753
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 3: are hiking in the middle of the day, like when

1754
01:39:44,439 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 3: the sun is at its highest point. You need sunscreen

1755
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 3: and a hat. There is like some protective clothing even

1756
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:54,320
Speaker 3: that could come in handy, but at the bare minimum,

1757
01:39:54,400 --> 01:39:56,280
Speaker 3: you need a good hat. Yeah, like not even a

1758
01:39:56,400 --> 01:39:59,400
Speaker 3: cat I like those those fishermen looking hats. You got

1759
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:01,719
Speaker 3: to get the whole circumference. But a cap is fine.

1760
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,160
Speaker 3: A cap will do. I think that's the most important

1761
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 3: little accessory for me.

1762
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,400
Speaker 8: It's a hat. I have one of those, like felted

1763
01:40:08,439 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 8: wool hats.

1764
01:40:09,120 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 3: Nice. Don't they get hot?

1765
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:12,040
Speaker 5: No?

1766
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:12,720
Speaker 10: Not really.

1767
01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 8: The wool breeze pretty well. Like it was what I

1768
01:40:15,280 --> 01:40:17,080
Speaker 8: was out at the body yesterday helping out and it

1769
01:40:17,160 --> 01:40:19,280
Speaker 8: was like a nineteen I was wearing it. It was fine,

1770
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:21,599
Speaker 8: and it's wool so you can dip in the water

1771
01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 8: and it gets wet. Yeah, I like one of those. Yeah.

1772
01:40:26,360 --> 01:40:28,800
Speaker 8: I actually have a little list of of equipment or

1773
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 8: clothing stuff which maybe I could go over. It seems

1774
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:34,519
Speaker 8: like the vast majority of the questions I get people

1775
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:36,120
Speaker 8: like to dm me the question, which is great, by

1776
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:37,600
Speaker 8: the way, I do like it when people ask me

1777
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:41,920
Speaker 8: for like how can I no bad question? Because no,

1778
01:40:42,160 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 8: there aren't. And like a lot of my career as

1779
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:48,559
Speaker 8: a journalist, like earlier on was doing outdoor media and like, yeah,

1780
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:51,320
Speaker 8: the outdoor media has gone to complete shit, and you know,

1781
01:40:51,360 --> 01:40:54,120
Speaker 8: you can't write anything. It's an advertorial now just actually

1782
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:57,120
Speaker 8: like just to if you are looking to buy something,

1783
01:40:57,960 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 8: and it is basically any product with you read on

1784
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 8: the Internet. I understand that the vast majority of those

1785
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:06,160
Speaker 8: will only be products that pay a certain percentage back

1786
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:08,200
Speaker 8: to the website that refers you to them, and so

1787
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 8: then inherently causes a bias against products which don't do that.

1788
01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 8: An editor at Big Men's Magazine suggested that I write

1789
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 8: some reviews about the stuff that I'd never seen.

1790
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 3: They weren't going to send them to you.

1791
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:21,800
Speaker 8: Well, the company would have done, but the editor wanted

1792
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:25,400
Speaker 8: the piece in like fifteen miles, which, like, I know,

1793
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:27,240
Speaker 8: I used to do lots of reviews and buy some stuff,

1794
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:28,960
Speaker 8: and I take it pretty seriously. And because it's a

1795
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:29,559
Speaker 8: lot of someone.

1796
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:31,080
Speaker 3: I look at those reviews all the time, I have

1797
01:41:31,200 --> 01:41:33,519
Speaker 3: to weed out the ones I think are like sponsored.

1798
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:36,960
Speaker 3: But I really I really like reviews. Yes, I go

1799
01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:38,960
Speaker 3: on Reddit a lot to see what people think, like

1800
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:40,559
Speaker 3: their own experience.

1801
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:42,560
Speaker 8: Redd It's a great place. So I've said that like universally,

1802
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 8: but I do mean with respect to Yeah.

1803
01:41:45,080 --> 01:41:48,160
Speaker 3: It's a place where you can find more anecdotal experience

1804
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:52,000
Speaker 3: with stuff versus I don't know, Amazon review.

1805
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:55,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, there are some whoppers on Reddit who in any

1806
01:41:55,320 --> 01:41:57,599
Speaker 8: aspect to overestimate their insight into things. But you'll find

1807
01:41:57,680 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 8: anyone on the internet. So yeah, I'm going to go

1808
01:42:00,439 --> 01:42:03,880
Speaker 8: through some different clothing items, stuff I like and stuff

1809
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:07,200
Speaker 8: that I think you can probably find cheap and hopefully

1810
01:42:07,240 --> 01:42:09,559
Speaker 8: that will help people kind of especially if you're thinking

1811
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:13,800
Speaker 8: of backpacking. It can be very intimidating and expensive, I think.

1812
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:16,519
Speaker 8: And at the start of the PCT almost once a week,

1813
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:18,439
Speaker 8: right helping out the border, that's one of the areas

1814
01:42:18,439 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 8: where people cross and I see people with thousands of

1815
01:42:21,040 --> 01:42:23,720
Speaker 8: dollars of gear that is all brand new, and I

1816
01:42:23,800 --> 01:42:25,760
Speaker 8: know it can be pretty intimidating, but like, you don't

1817
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:27,800
Speaker 8: have to start there, so there's always stuff you have

1818
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:30,560
Speaker 8: a home. Maybe we'll do one on camping later in

1819
01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:35,360
Speaker 8: the summer. So you get a hat, any particular hat preferences, Sharen, I.

1820
01:42:35,360 --> 01:42:38,320
Speaker 3: Don't know the brands, honestly, I don't know. And unless

1821
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:40,880
Speaker 3: like someone recommended this brand, use this, like my shoes

1822
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:46,920
Speaker 3: are I think we talked about this before Solomon No, yes,

1823
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:51,519
Speaker 3: is that a brand? Yeah, Salmon, And I was like,

1824
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:55,920
Speaker 3: that's a sad Yeah. Yeah, I think you can find

1825
01:42:56,040 --> 01:42:58,920
Speaker 3: really cheap hats that are protective. You know, I don't

1826
01:42:58,920 --> 01:43:01,400
Speaker 3: think you need a big brand for a hat as

1827
01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 3: long as it like covers your head in your face.

1828
01:43:04,240 --> 01:43:06,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, totally. I trail run all the time in

1829
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:08,640
Speaker 8: a hat I got free like five years ago.

1830
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:10,479
Speaker 3: If anything, I think it's better to have things you

1831
01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 3: don't care about getting dirty or ruined, you know, because

1832
01:43:13,400 --> 01:43:14,120
Speaker 3: you're sure.

1833
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:18,280
Speaker 8: I've noticed a lot of outdoor stuff really kind of

1834
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 8: moving towards streetwear. There's this thing that I learned about

1835
01:43:21,479 --> 01:43:27,160
Speaker 8: recently called gorp core, which is my okay, the test.

1836
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:28,240
Speaker 3: I think it's cute.

1837
01:43:31,080 --> 01:43:35,360
Speaker 8: Okay, this is going to be the point of disagreement.

1838
01:43:35,680 --> 01:43:37,639
Speaker 8: People like it when the hosts disagree on podcasts.

1839
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:39,160
Speaker 3: How do you define gorp core?

1840
01:43:40,080 --> 01:43:43,880
Speaker 8: It's people wearing hiking stuff to go around town, which

1841
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:45,599
Speaker 8: is fine. I do that all the time. I dress

1842
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:48,720
Speaker 8: like a man in ARII catalog. But like, why are

1843
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 8: you making it fashion? And then why have you stolen

1844
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:55,559
Speaker 8: my brands who used to make reliable outdoor gear.

1845
01:43:55,600 --> 01:44:00,200
Speaker 3: And now I enread that assessment, I will say, I

1846
01:44:00,240 --> 01:44:02,560
Speaker 3: don't think wearing hiking stuff is necessary, but I do

1847
01:44:02,920 --> 01:44:05,560
Speaker 3: like to look like I'm going on a safari, you know.

1848
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:08,840
Speaker 3: I like that character for me.

1849
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:12,080
Speaker 8: Do you have like a pith helmet and like a No,

1850
01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:14,520
Speaker 8: it's just more it's like fascinating.

1851
01:44:14,120 --> 01:44:16,280
Speaker 3: Like shorts that are meant to be hiked in are

1852
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:18,760
Speaker 3: longer usually, and I just think they look better than

1853
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 3: other shorts and you can just wear that and like

1854
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 3: a button down shirt with some leaves on it, it

1855
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:25,519
Speaker 3: looks like I'm going on a safari, but I'm just

1856
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:26,479
Speaker 3: walking around town.

1857
01:44:28,400 --> 01:44:31,960
Speaker 8: This this vision of like nineteen twenty sharen, you know,

1858
01:44:32,120 --> 01:44:35,599
Speaker 8: like a carriage seeing a lion.

1859
01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:39,080
Speaker 3: But yeah, gorf core is it's becoming more and more trendy.

1860
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:41,200
Speaker 3: And I will say that you're you're right about things

1861
01:44:41,240 --> 01:44:44,120
Speaker 3: being more expensive because of it, because it shouldn't be

1862
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 3: so expensive to be prepared to go on a hike.

1863
01:44:46,960 --> 01:44:49,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, and like so like for most of the stuff

1864
01:44:49,080 --> 01:44:51,880
Speaker 8: I look for when I'm hiking, a lot of brands

1865
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:56,120
Speaker 8: I go to, like Outdoor Research, Mountain Hardware. I'll list

1866
01:44:56,200 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 8: to other stuff as we go through, but like Oarctics

1867
01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:01,680
Speaker 8: and Patagonia seem to like taken off in price and

1868
01:45:01,880 --> 01:45:05,680
Speaker 8: like decoupled from other stuff which literally uses the same materials. Right,

1869
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:07,679
Speaker 8: One of the things I would suggest if you're trying

1870
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:10,679
Speaker 8: to buy outdoor gerries, look at the materials used, because

1871
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:12,720
Speaker 8: you know you might find the same material used in

1872
01:45:12,760 --> 01:45:15,800
Speaker 8: another piece somewhere else, and it might cost less, right

1873
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:19,400
Speaker 8: if it doesn't have that like gorp core appeal. If

1874
01:45:19,439 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 8: I just go through some stuff I like really quickly.

1875
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,439
Speaker 8: I like to wear buttonup shirts when I hike. Wow,

1876
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:25,759
Speaker 8: Forten a whole piece about this. It's like two thousand

1877
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:26,960
Speaker 8: words and it sits on backpack.

1878
01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:30,160
Speaker 3: So what's the reason A very shortened version of the reason.

1879
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:33,640
Speaker 8: They're nice. They cover your neck a bit better. They

1880
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:35,880
Speaker 8: have buttons so you can vent your chest if you

1881
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:41,479
Speaker 8: need to get some extra ventilation. Yeah, you can roll

1882
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:44,080
Speaker 8: up the sleeves. You can roll down the sleeves. That

1883
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 8: there was very practical. When I met the president of

1884
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:48,320
Speaker 8: the Marshall Islands, like one of my little hiking buttonup

1885
01:45:48,360 --> 01:45:50,200
Speaker 8: shirts because I hadn't been expected to be formal, and

1886
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:51,880
Speaker 8: I put on a little tie that they gave me

1887
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 8: and I went.

1888
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 3: I will say I have worn my button down hiking

1889
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:59,920
Speaker 3: shirts out and about town because I think they look

1890
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:01,759
Speaker 3: so oops.

1891
01:46:02,520 --> 01:46:06,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, I agree with you, Srian, I think they look cute.

1892
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:08,560
Speaker 8: You can look cute in them. If you're looking to

1893
01:46:08,600 --> 01:46:11,440
Speaker 8: buy some shirts. Outdoor Research has one called the Astroman,

1894
01:46:11,600 --> 01:46:14,840
Speaker 8: which is amazing, Like it feels like you're not wearing

1895
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:17,759
Speaker 8: a shirt, which is always the goal with shirt couu.

1896
01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:20,120
Speaker 8: The Hunting brand has one called the Tiburon, which is right.

1897
01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:21,599
Speaker 3: Are they going to be listed somewhere?

1898
01:46:22,080 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 8: Yes, Like I did last time, I will make a

1899
01:46:24,600 --> 01:46:27,679
Speaker 8: two thousand words show description with links in it for people.

1900
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:30,439
Speaker 8: I also like those T shirts, like running shirts. I

1901
01:46:30,479 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 8: don't really buy like hiking t shirts. I think often

1902
01:46:32,840 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 8: they're just cotton T shirts with a picture of a

1903
01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:39,600
Speaker 8: river on. But running shirts a nice gore wear, so

1904
01:46:39,720 --> 01:46:44,080
Speaker 8: that the people who make gortex there's also really good

1905
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,880
Speaker 8: value stuff. Actually it's worth looking at obviously, Like they're

1906
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:49,519
Speaker 8: like in house, so they have all gortex waterproof stuff.

1907
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:51,680
Speaker 8: But they have a shirt called the Contest which I

1908
01:46:51,720 --> 01:46:54,840
Speaker 8: always trail running this morning. It's a pretty nice shirt

1909
01:46:55,120 --> 01:46:58,560
Speaker 8: and gets hot here in San Diego. And like, I

1910
01:46:58,600 --> 01:47:00,000
Speaker 8: don't want to be the guy running with the shit

1911
01:47:00,040 --> 01:47:04,160
Speaker 8: out of and so. And also I'm British, so like

1912
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:07,040
Speaker 8: me and the sun are in a constant state of disagreement.

1913
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:10,600
Speaker 8: I'm not a skinware person. Utreen. I didn't believe in

1914
01:47:10,680 --> 01:47:15,120
Speaker 8: some to me I do now. I do now, I

1915
01:47:15,240 --> 01:47:17,840
Speaker 8: do now. Until my early thirties, I thought that it

1916
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 8: was stopping my skin breathing and affecting my performance as

1917
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 8: a big races that you've cherished changed. Yeah, I never

1918
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,400
Speaker 8: had skin on my well like most.

1919
01:47:27,240 --> 01:47:28,719
Speaker 3: Of you thought on screen was bad.

1920
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 8: When you have to understand that everything about pro cycling

1921
01:47:33,479 --> 01:47:36,240
Speaker 8: is like lies the older people tell you so, like

1922
01:47:36,560 --> 01:47:38,400
Speaker 8: when I was coming up in cycling, it was like

1923
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 8: the very end of the like people who had trained

1924
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 8: in East Germany, like before the fall of the Berlin War, right,

1925
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 8: and they had all these bullshit things like I had

1926
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:50,799
Speaker 8: a team director who would make us eat fast animals

1927
01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 8: because he thought that would turn us into fasters.

1928
01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:58,679
Speaker 3: Like that's a good one, no, I mean the even

1929
01:47:58,760 --> 01:48:03,040
Speaker 3: now there is a little subculture of like, don't wear sunscreen.

1930
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:04,720
Speaker 3: The sun is good for you. You should just like

1931
01:48:05,120 --> 01:48:08,919
Speaker 3: vitamin D. But y'all know, wear sunscreen, reapply the sunscreen.

1932
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:12,679
Speaker 3: I should make a skincare episode. I'm obsessed with this stuff.

1933
01:48:12,880 --> 01:48:15,800
Speaker 3: And sunscreen is so important it is.

1934
01:48:15,960 --> 01:48:18,160
Speaker 8: You can get much better sunscreen outside the US.

1935
01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:21,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do. I use Korean sunscreen. Korean sunscreen is great, Okay.

1936
01:48:21,760 --> 01:48:26,240
Speaker 8: Great, Okay. I get European sunscreen when I'm in the airport.

1937
01:48:25,920 --> 01:48:30,200
Speaker 3: But also both the European sunscreens and Asian sunscreens. They're

1938
01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:33,040
Speaker 3: formulated so much differently than the ones in the US.

1939
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 3: I feel like there are certain things that are they're different.

1940
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:38,400
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1941
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,720
Speaker 3: America is fucking up.

1942
01:48:40,680 --> 01:48:44,479
Speaker 8: It's because the active ingredients, haven't the FDA. Yeah, okay, yeah,

1943
01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:48,240
Speaker 8: sunscreen conspiracy divation over sharen. Maybe we should take an

1944
01:48:48,280 --> 01:48:51,040
Speaker 8: advertising break here in case we land the Koreans.

1945
01:48:51,080 --> 01:48:53,560
Speaker 3: Oh, okay, advertising, Yeah, let's do it. I want to

1946
01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:56,680
Speaker 3: get shrooms and Korean sunscreen under my advertising bill. That

1947
01:48:56,680 --> 01:48:58,520
Speaker 3: would be great. That's my entire personality.

1948
01:49:04,439 --> 01:49:06,360
Speaker 8: All Right, we're back. We hope you enjoyed that advert

1949
01:49:06,400 --> 01:49:09,479
Speaker 8: for sund screen. I want to talk about trousers just

1950
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:12,680
Speaker 8: in general, but also with reference to hiking. Sometimes I

1951
01:49:12,760 --> 01:49:14,560
Speaker 8: go out and I drop water for people so that

1952
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:17,240
Speaker 8: they don't die in the desert. And that's something that

1953
01:49:17,479 --> 01:49:19,600
Speaker 8: I think is one of the coolest fucking things that

1954
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:21,600
Speaker 8: you can do if you live near the border, and

1955
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:24,360
Speaker 8: everyone who does it is a massive legend in my opinion.

1956
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:26,760
Speaker 8: And even if you just come out once, you could

1957
01:49:26,760 --> 01:49:30,040
Speaker 8: save someone's life. And that's pretty fucking cool. And I

1958
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:32,360
Speaker 8: want you, if you live near here, to feel like

1959
01:49:32,439 --> 01:49:33,720
Speaker 8: you can do that and if what's holding you back,

1960
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:37,000
Speaker 8: if you don't know what to where or want backpack

1961
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:39,639
Speaker 8: to get just like dm me on Twitter, but sometimes

1962
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 8: I come out in jeans. I would not suggest hiking

1963
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:46,760
Speaker 8: in jeans. I would make jeans are great. I love jeans.

1964
01:49:46,840 --> 01:49:48,720
Speaker 8: I like to climb in jeans. I know Ian, the

1965
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:51,000
Speaker 8: producer of this show, have some opinions about people who

1966
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 8: want to hear You haven't seen this, yeah, because Ian

1967
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:56,880
Speaker 8: doesn't tweet very much, so I only found his Twitter

1968
01:49:57,160 --> 01:49:59,559
Speaker 8: like six months ago. One of his tweets with about

1969
01:49:59,680 --> 01:50:04,160
Speaker 8: why people because it's cool yan, No, no, no, it's

1970
01:50:04,200 --> 01:50:07,600
Speaker 8: not because you have to climb in jeans. Because you

1971
01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:10,000
Speaker 8: have to remind people that you were climbing before the

1972
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:13,240
Speaker 8: fucking Alex Honold's film came out. And the way to

1973
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:15,000
Speaker 8: do that is to be a dirt bag. And the

1974
01:50:15,080 --> 01:50:17,719
Speaker 8: way to do that is to go to a second

1975
01:50:17,760 --> 01:50:20,280
Speaker 8: hand shop and buy the ladies jeans, sort the stretch.

1976
01:50:20,040 --> 01:50:22,320
Speaker 3: The ones that are worn in because like from New genes,

1977
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:25,080
Speaker 3: seem so uncomfortable to do anything in in my opinion.

1978
01:50:25,320 --> 01:50:28,560
Speaker 8: No, yeah, you want the stretchy fabric genes, you know,

1979
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,120
Speaker 8: the ones. It's okay if they're normal geens. Yeah, they've

1980
01:50:31,120 --> 01:50:32,240
Speaker 8: got to be worn in and then you cut them

1981
01:50:32,240 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 8: off a couple of inches above the ankle so you

1982
01:50:33,800 --> 01:50:35,800
Speaker 8: can see your feet, and you go climbing in those

1983
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:39,559
Speaker 8: and a cut off T shirt and you keep climbing grungy,

1984
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:44,439
Speaker 8: because that's important. You can't be letting all the Have

1985
01:50:44,560 --> 01:50:47,240
Speaker 8: you seen this film Free Solo? People change it so yeah,

1986
01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 8: oh gosh, yeah, that's one of the things that I

1987
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:50,240
Speaker 8: will never back down.

1988
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:51,000
Speaker 1: That run.

1989
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:54,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, they use. The easiest route in my climbing gym

1990
01:50:54,120 --> 01:50:56,200
Speaker 8: for years was called Hey, dude, have you seen this film?

1991
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:58,120
Speaker 8: It's called Free Solo, which I thought was great.

1992
01:50:58,760 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 6: Wow.

1993
01:50:59,320 --> 01:51:01,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, you can go climbing in jeans, but don't go

1994
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:04,160
Speaker 8: hiking in jeans. They don't breathe very well, they don't

1995
01:51:04,240 --> 01:51:07,840
Speaker 8: move very well, they do chafe very well, and if

1996
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:12,479
Speaker 8: they get wet, they suck. So you can get good

1997
01:51:12,680 --> 01:51:17,320
Speaker 8: like Niico or polyester or like even some with like

1998
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:20,439
Speaker 8: spandex or like greens. So they stretch trousers pretty quickly.

1999
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:23,400
Speaker 8: I really like Prana trousers that like the yoga brand.

2000
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:26,639
Speaker 8: I'm wearing some right now. They have a one called

2001
01:51:26,640 --> 01:51:28,760
Speaker 8: the stretch Ion, and they have a men's model and

2002
01:51:28,760 --> 01:51:31,360
Speaker 8: a women's model, I think, and they're really cheap. They're

2003
01:51:31,400 --> 01:51:34,240
Speaker 8: always on sale. I really like those for like a

2004
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:37,479
Speaker 8: cheap go to trouser hiking. Also there's a brand called

2005
01:51:37,560 --> 01:51:41,479
Speaker 8: True Work who make like technical work clothes, which I

2006
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:43,640
Speaker 8: like to wear if I'm like when we were constructing

2007
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:46,120
Speaker 8: shelters a lot in Cucumber before the Border of Patrol

2008
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:48,560
Speaker 8: tore them down. It's nice to have the little like

2009
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:50,960
Speaker 8: extra pockets for your tools and for your pencil and

2010
01:51:51,000 --> 01:51:52,960
Speaker 8: your tape measure and stuff like that. I wear those

2011
01:51:53,000 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 8: for hiking as well, and they're kind of dual purpose. Generally,

2012
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 8: if you have trousers that are lightweight, that breathe well

2013
01:51:58,320 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 8: and have good flexibility, you're good to go. The next

2014
01:52:01,200 --> 01:52:04,600
Speaker 8: thing I have here is socks. People really fuck up

2015
01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:08,360
Speaker 8: with socks, and it seems like socks and footwear are

2016
01:52:09,200 --> 01:52:11,880
Speaker 8: areas where people really get themselves into trouble. Tried this

2017
01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:14,400
Speaker 8: out recently and the interest of journalism. Actually, there are

2018
01:52:14,439 --> 01:52:18,439
Speaker 8: a couple of brands the things that I do just

2019
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:22,960
Speaker 8: on a whim, darn Tough, you know, down tough sucks Serene, No, okay,

2020
01:52:23,360 --> 01:52:26,040
Speaker 8: now you do. They're a company and Vermont, who make

2021
01:52:26,080 --> 01:52:26,599
Speaker 8: good socks.

2022
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:29,439
Speaker 3: Well, okay, I do want I need new hiking socks.

2023
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:33,560
Speaker 8: Okay, good, yeah, sit down, Okay. Two brands that I

2024
01:52:33,560 --> 01:52:37,120
Speaker 8: would recommend are Features and Done Tough because they fit

2025
01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:40,439
Speaker 8: well there will so will still insulates when it's where

2026
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:44,439
Speaker 8: it breethes. Well, it doesn't burn, but that's not a

2027
01:52:44,479 --> 01:52:46,680
Speaker 8: big concern for most of us hiking here. It's you're

2028
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:48,679
Speaker 8: in a forest far I guess. But they'll find your feet.

2029
01:52:49,040 --> 01:52:51,720
Speaker 8: That'll be great. They also have lifetime warranties, which I

2030
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:54,760
Speaker 8: think is really cool for for socks. Yeah, that's cool.

2031
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2032
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:57,799
Speaker 8: So I tested these out in the interest of journalism

2033
01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:01,240
Speaker 8: and feature in science and so yeah, I did a

2034
01:53:01,960 --> 01:53:05,599
Speaker 8: did a little double blind test, and I contacted Features

2035
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:08,040
Speaker 8: and done toff and said, hi, I have worn holes

2036
01:53:08,080 --> 01:53:10,280
Speaker 8: through the front of my socks. And they said, no problems,

2037
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:11,840
Speaker 8: send them back. And I sent them back and Features

2038
01:53:11,920 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 8: got me the socks. So what they do is they

2039
01:53:13,320 --> 01:53:15,000
Speaker 8: send you a coupon, then you go on their website

2040
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:16,720
Speaker 8: and you order whatever socks you want. And it took

2041
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:18,800
Speaker 8: me about a week and I had new socks. Well

2042
01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 8: down tuft took a little bit longer, but I had

2043
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,360
Speaker 8: new socks. So like if you're a person who doesn't

2044
01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:24,720
Speaker 8: want to spend a lot of money, you can spend

2045
01:53:24,720 --> 01:53:26,600
Speaker 8: your money once and have socks for life, which I

2046
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:29,960
Speaker 8: thought was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I heard

2047
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:31,640
Speaker 8: that they had a good warranty. But then I was like,

2048
01:53:31,680 --> 01:53:33,599
Speaker 8: you know what, lots of brands say lots of bullshit,

2049
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:36,200
Speaker 8: to let me test it, and tested I did. It

2050
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:39,599
Speaker 8: turned out to be true in both cases.

2051
01:53:39,720 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 3: I will say for the inexperienced person, I think when

2052
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:45,400
Speaker 3: you hear wool socks, you're like, okay, I'll wear those

2053
01:53:45,439 --> 01:53:47,760
Speaker 3: one it's cold, but no, you have to wear them

2054
01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:52,600
Speaker 3: for like it's like temperature regulation, right, It's like you.

2055
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:54,519
Speaker 8: Want to let your foot breathe, right, so you don't

2056
01:53:54,560 --> 01:53:55,960
Speaker 8: get like blisters you get.

2057
01:53:56,600 --> 01:53:58,680
Speaker 3: Do you wear them any weather? That's my point. I

2058
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:01,720
Speaker 3: feel like what I hear wool as someone that grew

2059
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:04,800
Speaker 3: up in Sokel, I'm like, Okay, it's going to be cold,

2060
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:07,120
Speaker 3: No it's not. Just put them on your feet and

2061
01:54:07,720 --> 01:54:12,160
Speaker 3: your shoe will be war comfy. Also a comfortable shoe essential. Yeah, yeah,

2062
01:54:12,160 --> 01:54:13,040
Speaker 3: I'm sure you're going to get there.

2063
01:54:13,320 --> 01:54:15,200
Speaker 8: But yeah, there are different thickness. Is you have will

2064
01:54:15,240 --> 01:54:16,720
Speaker 8: socks for cord wear there, but I also have wolf

2065
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:19,639
Speaker 8: socks for hot weather, right, but they're all wool, you know, Well, yeah,

2066
01:54:19,680 --> 01:54:22,040
Speaker 8: they're just in Actually I wore a wool shirt when

2067
01:54:22,080 --> 01:54:23,600
Speaker 8: I did a couple of years ago. There was a

2068
01:54:23,640 --> 01:54:26,080
Speaker 8: heat advisory, so I figured that would be a good

2069
01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:28,840
Speaker 8: time to go backpacking on the PCT because no one

2070
01:54:28,840 --> 01:54:29,559
Speaker 8: else would be there.

2071
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:30,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, good idea.

2072
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:32,320
Speaker 8: It's great. I had a wonderful time. It was not

2073
01:54:32,400 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 8: molested by people. He saw some snakes. It was nice

2074
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:38,600
Speaker 8: rescue the dude, did you wear a sunscreen? Yeah? I

2075
01:54:38,680 --> 01:54:41,680
Speaker 8: did in that instance. Anah, actually yeah, this was after

2076
01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:42,720
Speaker 8: my sunscreen awakening.

2077
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:44,240
Speaker 3: Oh great, I'm so glad.

2078
01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:47,320
Speaker 8: Don't go out without water. This dude was out looking

2079
01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:49,640
Speaker 8: for Kitchen Creek Falls, which if you're not familiar, as

2080
01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:52,440
Speaker 8: a seasonal waterfall in his county, San Diego, and he

2081
01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:55,360
Speaker 8: was probably about three or four months late or early,

2082
01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:57,400
Speaker 8: depending on how you look at it. And so if

2083
01:54:57,440 --> 01:54:59,640
Speaker 8: had gone out without water, which don't be relying on

2084
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:01,400
Speaker 8: that kind of stuff. If it says water on the map,

2085
01:55:01,480 --> 01:55:04,640
Speaker 8: that's cool. Still bring water, especially you're in the desert. Yeah,

2086
01:55:04,760 --> 01:55:08,200
Speaker 8: let's talk about shoes. I think people want to go

2087
01:55:08,360 --> 01:55:12,320
Speaker 8: hiking in boots because that's what like you think of

2088
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:16,320
Speaker 8: when you think of grambling or hiking. But like if

2089
01:55:16,400 --> 01:55:19,480
Speaker 8: you don't wear boots for work or habitually, you know,

2090
01:55:19,600 --> 01:55:24,280
Speaker 8: for just like crosspunk reasons, then you might be really

2091
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:26,360
Speaker 8: uncomfortable in boots. Like you're not used to hard things

2092
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 8: rubbing your ankles, so would not suggest and unless you're

2093
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:33,560
Speaker 8: putting on load, Like I wear boots if I'm backpacking. Certainly,

2094
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,000
Speaker 8: if I'm like pack rafting or something where I've got

2095
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:38,920
Speaker 8: like the raft and everything else, and I'm going to

2096
01:55:39,040 --> 01:55:40,560
Speaker 8: do it a long hiking, right, so I've got all

2097
01:55:40,600 --> 01:55:42,560
Speaker 8: my camping stuff and the raft, I'm gonna wear boots.

2098
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:45,160
Speaker 8: Or if I'm off trails when we drop water, We're

2099
01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:47,680
Speaker 8: not going on trails, right, We're just sort of out

2100
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:50,120
Speaker 8: and about climbing up mountain, So I'll wear boots for that.

2101
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 8: But for almost everyone, especially if you're hiking on trails,

2102
01:55:53,920 --> 01:55:55,560
Speaker 8: you're going to be just fine with shoes. I think

2103
01:55:55,720 --> 01:55:58,200
Speaker 8: the big thing boots give you more stability, right, they

2104
01:55:58,240 --> 01:55:59,840
Speaker 8: stop your ankle from twitch.

2105
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:01,960
Speaker 3: That's why I wear them. I weak ankles.

2106
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:05,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's genetic. Yeah, you can work on their little

2107
01:56:05,160 --> 01:56:06,360
Speaker 8: ankle strength stuff.

2108
01:56:06,120 --> 01:56:09,000
Speaker 3: You can do, but that's not happening, I'll just wear

2109
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:10,360
Speaker 3: a boot.

2110
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:15,960
Speaker 8: Boots maximalist for me, like finding shoes sort of stable

2111
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 8: that like you know, like inherently stabilize my foot without

2112
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:21,880
Speaker 8: clamping my ankle has been really good.

2113
01:56:21,920 --> 01:56:23,840
Speaker 3: I feel more stable in a boot though you don't

2114
01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:24,120
Speaker 3: think so.

2115
01:56:24,560 --> 01:56:27,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, but then you're just sort of transferring to me,

2116
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:30,200
Speaker 8: Like sometimes I like to have the ability to move

2117
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:33,080
Speaker 8: my ankles, especially, like I like to trail run as well.

2118
01:56:33,200 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 8: If I'm to be honest, if I'm just going out,

2119
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:38,600
Speaker 8: I'm probably running at the minute. And like even over

2120
01:56:38,680 --> 01:56:40,800
Speaker 8: night city, it's really fun to just run until it

2121
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:43,280
Speaker 8: gets dark and then sleep and then run again. It's

2122
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:43,920
Speaker 8: a fun thing to do.

2123
01:56:44,120 --> 01:56:44,280
Speaker 5: Well.

2124
01:56:44,280 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 3: I'd be curious about your hiking shoe recommendations versus boot.

2125
01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:51,840
Speaker 8: So I got three. They're all like they have little

2126
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:55,560
Speaker 8: kind of your foots like sitting in the insole, not

2127
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:57,800
Speaker 8: on the insult, if that makes sense. So it's like

2128
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:00,480
Speaker 8: cupped a little bit in that CUsing possibility. One is

2129
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:04,520
Speaker 8: the Salomon Genesis. It's the cheapest one they make in

2130
01:57:04,560 --> 01:57:06,760
Speaker 8: that line. I think it's a really good shoe. I

2131
01:57:06,920 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 8: trail running in them all the time. Two the other

2132
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:13,880
Speaker 8: one is a Soccany Exodus Ultra two, which it's really cool.

2133
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:15,560
Speaker 8: It has like a softer foam in the middle and

2134
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 8: then a stiffer foam around the outside of your heel.

2135
01:57:17,920 --> 01:57:20,560
Speaker 8: I could talk about the shit for hours, but it

2136
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:23,480
Speaker 8: feels very comfortable and soft. But also you're very stable,

2137
01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:25,640
Speaker 8: and they're about to be phased out, so you can

2138
01:57:25,640 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 8: find them really cheap.

2139
01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:27,720
Speaker 3: Why are they both to be phased out?

2140
01:57:28,600 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 8: Running shoe companies make a new shoe every year because

2141
01:57:31,720 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 8: they feel like they need to.

2142
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:35,280
Speaker 3: Human foot has been the same, I would argue for

2143
01:57:35,960 --> 01:57:38,360
Speaker 3: a while. Yeah, it's not changing.

2144
01:57:38,760 --> 01:57:41,560
Speaker 8: Technology advances, right, Like shoe foams have come up, even

2145
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:42,880
Speaker 8: in the past five or six years. Like if you

2146
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:44,680
Speaker 8: have more running shoes in the past five or six years,

2147
01:57:44,680 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 8: and you have the means to buy some more running shoes,

2148
01:57:46,960 --> 01:57:49,360
Speaker 8: Piba foams and things like that, like these like high

2149
01:57:49,440 --> 01:57:53,040
Speaker 8: energy return phones make running a lot more pleasant. But

2150
01:57:53,160 --> 01:57:55,240
Speaker 8: often it's just like a different color scheme or you know,

2151
01:57:55,320 --> 01:57:58,520
Speaker 8: slightly different upper Yeah, and I think in that case

2152
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:01,120
Speaker 8: you're just fine. The other ones that Meryl kind of

2153
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:03,320
Speaker 8: had a reputation for making, like old man hiking boots

2154
01:58:03,360 --> 01:58:06,040
Speaker 8: for a while, but they're trail running shoes really great.

2155
01:58:06,280 --> 01:58:10,200
Speaker 3: That's cool. Yeah, my friend has Meryl shoes and they're cute.

2156
01:58:11,160 --> 01:58:12,640
Speaker 8: See they used to be cute. They used to be

2157
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:14,240
Speaker 8: very like dad coded.

2158
01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they've turned a corner.

2159
01:58:16,440 --> 01:58:18,280
Speaker 8: Yeah they have. I'm a big fan. Now I'm wearing

2160
01:58:18,320 --> 01:58:21,320
Speaker 8: some right now. Actually, Alex to wear Meryl. The Agidity

2161
01:58:21,400 --> 01:58:23,640
Speaker 8: Peak one is good. The long Sky is when I

2162
01:58:23,760 --> 01:58:27,560
Speaker 8: like when I'm like trail running in burlier terrain. If

2163
01:58:27,560 --> 01:58:30,400
Speaker 8: you're going to buy boots or shoes, please try it on,

2164
01:58:30,680 --> 01:58:32,120
Speaker 8: or at least sort of them from a website that

2165
01:58:32,200 --> 01:58:33,400
Speaker 8: lets you send them back. Yeah.

2166
01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:35,880
Speaker 3: I really think that's essential. I messed up the first

2167
01:58:35,960 --> 01:58:39,720
Speaker 3: time I really invested in expensive boots. I got them

2168
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:42,880
Speaker 3: after all reading all these reviews and I hated them.

2169
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:44,440
Speaker 3: Like I walked around my house and I was like,

2170
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:47,920
Speaker 3: these are terrible. But I was able to return them

2171
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:50,560
Speaker 3: to my ARII that was vocal, And I tried on

2172
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 3: the other shoe I wanted to try on that they

2173
01:58:52,760 --> 01:58:55,480
Speaker 3: had and that was great. I walked around in Aria

2174
01:58:55,600 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 3: and I was like, this is the one you have

2175
01:58:57,200 --> 01:58:57,800
Speaker 3: to try them on.

2176
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, take the socks you're going to wear when you're

2177
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:02,440
Speaker 8: hiking as well. Like they don't just take socks and

2178
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:04,720
Speaker 8: don't feel the same. And then we walk around and

2179
01:59:05,240 --> 01:59:07,000
Speaker 8: the next thing I had was backpacked. Actually, and I'm

2180
01:59:07,040 --> 01:59:10,480
Speaker 8: going to say the same thing, like, the most important

2181
01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:12,520
Speaker 8: thing for a backpack is that it fits your body,

2182
01:59:12,920 --> 01:59:15,280
Speaker 8: and that it is fitted to your body. Ari I

2183
01:59:15,400 --> 01:59:18,320
Speaker 8: will do that for free, which is great. Lots of

2184
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:21,040
Speaker 8: other outdoor shops for San Diego used to have Adventure sixteen.

2185
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:24,920
Speaker 8: It's sadly closed rip. But anyone who's trying to sell

2186
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:26,440
Speaker 8: your backpack in person and won't fit it to you

2187
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:29,000
Speaker 8: is probably someone you shouldn't buy a backpack from. So

2188
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:33,080
Speaker 8: if you google around enough and you have enough google for,

2189
01:59:33,200 --> 01:59:35,960
Speaker 8: you will find a video of me teaching you how

2190
01:59:36,080 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 8: to wear your backpack. Someone will find Yes, I know,

2191
01:59:40,040 --> 01:59:42,720
Speaker 8: and yeah, I've got a broken arm in that video,

2192
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:46,960
Speaker 8: which you can't tell. I haven't sought medical attention at

2193
01:59:47,000 --> 01:59:48,920
Speaker 8: the time of the video. Got hit by a car

2194
01:59:49,080 --> 01:59:50,280
Speaker 8: and then I knew I had to eat a video

2195
01:59:50,480 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 8: the next day, so I went to do the video.

2196
01:59:54,000 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 8: I have to make money. It was broke.

2197
01:59:56,120 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 3: I will say that as someone who is it the

2198
02:00:00,440 --> 02:00:02,680
Speaker 3: most knowledgeable about the stuff, But I like it, and

2199
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,680
Speaker 3: I would consider myself like a I don't know, intermediate,

2200
02:00:05,880 --> 02:00:09,960
Speaker 3: not advanced, but go into ARII and getting a backpack fit.

2201
02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:12,760
Speaker 3: And that's what I did. Don't shy away from asking questions.

2202
02:00:12,800 --> 02:00:14,840
Speaker 3: They're there to help and I think as soon as

2203
02:00:14,880 --> 02:00:16,920
Speaker 3: you get over that, you'll be fine. I feel like

2204
02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:19,400
Speaker 3: as soon as I just like accept that these people

2205
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:21,600
Speaker 3: are there to help you and not to shame you,

2206
02:00:22,200 --> 02:00:26,240
Speaker 3: hopefully that's great and like, yeah, they're trying to sell

2207
02:00:26,280 --> 02:00:29,080
Speaker 3: you things, but I don't know, just go in with

2208
02:00:29,200 --> 02:00:30,960
Speaker 3: a smart head on your shoulders.

2209
02:00:31,280 --> 02:00:34,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, expect people to be well meaning, like we all

2210
02:00:34,680 --> 02:00:36,440
Speaker 8: just want you to be happy and enjoying the outdoors

2211
02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:40,000
Speaker 8: with us. It's not a competition with backpacks. Real quickly,

2212
02:00:40,120 --> 02:00:43,600
Speaker 8: you've got basically three distinct types. You have ultra light backpacks,

2213
02:00:43,600 --> 02:00:45,560
Speaker 8: which you don't have a frame at all. Imagine a

2214
02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:48,120
Speaker 8: bucket made of fabric with two straps so attached to

2215
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 8: your back. I wouldn't suggest starting there. You have external

2216
02:00:51,400 --> 02:00:54,520
Speaker 8: frame that's where the frame is external and the back

2217
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:56,920
Speaker 8: is clipped onto the frame. And you have internal frame

2218
02:00:57,120 --> 02:01:00,120
Speaker 8: where the frame is integral to the back right to

2219
02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:01,800
Speaker 8: the bags. You're probably going to look at an internal

2220
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:04,480
Speaker 8: frame to start with the heavier the bag gets. The

2221
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:07,360
Speaker 8: more structure you get and the more little pockets an

2222
02:01:07,440 --> 02:01:10,840
Speaker 8: organization you get, those can seem super tempting, especially when

2223
02:01:10,840 --> 02:01:13,320
Speaker 8: you're looking online and you're seeing like different specs and

2224
02:01:13,400 --> 02:01:15,480
Speaker 8: trying to compare them. If you're a person who has

2225
02:01:15,520 --> 02:01:18,560
Speaker 8: access to ziplock bags, you don't need all the pockets, right, Like, yeah,

2226
02:01:18,880 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 8: what I do every single time they go back back

2227
02:01:21,040 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 8: and so I put a bin bag in it that

2228
02:01:22,920 --> 02:01:25,879
Speaker 8: waterproofs it. Right, Yeah, it's cool if your bags it's waterproof,

2229
02:01:26,080 --> 02:01:28,880
Speaker 8: I don't trust it to be waterproof, and it doesn't

2230
02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:30,040
Speaker 8: need to be because I'm going to put a bin

2231
02:01:30,080 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 8: bag in there anyway, and I put everything in stuff

2232
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:34,280
Speaker 8: sacks as zip block bags in there. Likewise, you'll find

2233
02:01:34,320 --> 02:01:37,360
Speaker 8: lots of bags with like seventy five ways to access

2234
02:01:37,400 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 8: the main pocket. Most of the time you're going to

2235
02:01:40,560 --> 02:01:43,440
Speaker 8: have your stuff inside a waterproof bag anyway, It's not

2236
02:01:43,600 --> 02:01:44,240
Speaker 8: such a big deal.

2237
02:01:44,360 --> 02:01:46,240
Speaker 3: I think the most important aspect of a bag that

2238
02:01:46,360 --> 02:01:47,680
Speaker 3: used to look at first is just the weight.

2239
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:51,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, you can fuck yourself up with a heavy bag.

2240
02:01:51,400 --> 02:01:54,000
Speaker 8: Although that said, like one of the bags that I

2241
02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:56,760
Speaker 8: use the most for water drop stuff is a Mystery

2242
02:01:56,840 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 8: Ranch Blackjacke it's a military bag. It's heavy. It's like

2243
02:01:59,800 --> 02:02:02,200
Speaker 8: a I think it's five point seven pounds for the bag,

2244
02:02:03,040 --> 02:02:06,360
Speaker 8: but I'm not trying to be light. What I'm trying

2245
02:02:06,360 --> 02:02:09,400
Speaker 8: to do is fill it with gallons of water, right,

2246
02:02:09,600 --> 02:02:11,120
Speaker 8: and then haul them up and down a mounted So

2247
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:12,920
Speaker 8: I might as well make the bag comfortable because it's

2248
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:15,760
Speaker 8: a negligible percentage of the overall weight of shit I'm carrying.

2249
02:02:15,960 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 3: That's fair.

2250
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:19,800
Speaker 8: There's a bag for the Radix, the Mystery Ranch make

2251
02:02:19,840 --> 02:02:21,880
Speaker 8: that I've been using a lot recently, and it's made

2252
02:02:21,920 --> 02:02:24,720
Speaker 8: of like very lightweight material, like an ultrolyte bag. But

2253
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:27,320
Speaker 8: I like their frames. They have like a yoke that

2254
02:02:27,480 --> 02:02:29,560
Speaker 8: kind of wraps around your body as opposed to frame

2255
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:31,560
Speaker 8: that sits on top of your body, and that works

2256
02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:35,240
Speaker 8: really well for me. Their warranty is good, their products

2257
02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:38,080
Speaker 8: are good. I've used their bags in like every continent

2258
02:02:38,120 --> 02:02:41,280
Speaker 8: apart from the Antarctic and never had anything break. Especially

2259
02:02:41,400 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 8: like if you're a person who gets actious about your

2260
02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:45,840
Speaker 8: ship breaking, then you can't go wrong with them. They

2261
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:49,320
Speaker 8: also have incredible discount If you want one but you

2262
02:02:49,360 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 8: think it's too expensive, take your time and you'll find

2263
02:02:51,400 --> 02:02:55,000
Speaker 8: them way cheaper. That's a good bag to get. I

2264
02:02:55,120 --> 02:02:58,680
Speaker 8: like Gregory bags, Osprey or a good brand. Osprey bags can.

2265
02:02:58,640 --> 02:03:01,680
Speaker 3: Tell to what I have backpacking backpack is an Osprey.

2266
02:03:02,280 --> 02:03:04,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, They're very comfortable. They have a lot going on

2267
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:07,200
Speaker 8: sometimes and they have that mesh. Do you have the

2268
02:03:07,240 --> 02:03:10,000
Speaker 8: one with a mesh? Like? Yeah, they are very comfortable.

2269
02:03:10,000 --> 02:03:12,160
Speaker 8: I have an Osprey bag that I really like. I

2270
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 8: took it pack rafting and Alaska and it was great.

2271
02:03:14,040 --> 02:03:15,680
Speaker 8: It was bomba. If you're just going on a day hike,

2272
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:18,040
Speaker 8: you don't need very much backpack, right, twenty liters or

2273
02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:21,120
Speaker 8: whatever is fine, even ten. I really like those running

2274
02:03:21,160 --> 02:03:23,920
Speaker 8: vesttile backpacks where you have like pockets on the front.

2275
02:03:24,440 --> 02:03:26,920
Speaker 8: Have you seen those? You don't have to pick? Oh,

2276
02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:27,320
Speaker 8: it's cool.

2277
02:03:27,400 --> 02:03:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2278
02:03:27,720 --> 02:03:28,240
Speaker 5: Do I have one?

2279
02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:30,640
Speaker 8: Send your pictulator shat things?

2280
02:03:31,200 --> 02:03:31,400
Speaker 9: Yeah?

2281
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:33,360
Speaker 8: I mean you're looking forward to it. When I ran,

2282
02:03:33,440 --> 02:03:35,160
Speaker 8: I like to have a little water flasks down there,

2283
02:03:35,240 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 8: and then that makes sense. Yeah, And then I was like,

2284
02:03:38,040 --> 02:03:40,280
Speaker 8: why don't have this on my normal backpack? Why am

2285
02:03:40,280 --> 02:03:42,560
Speaker 8: I having to like reach around for my snacks? I'm

2286
02:03:42,600 --> 02:03:45,720
Speaker 8: all about a fishency. So running vestile backpacks are cool.

2287
02:03:46,200 --> 02:03:48,720
Speaker 8: Camelback has some good ones. Everyone called the octane. I

2288
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:52,879
Speaker 8: use a lot, and then when you're buying a backpack,

2289
02:03:53,000 --> 02:03:54,800
Speaker 8: you'll want to pile a little water reservoir to go

2290
02:03:54,920 --> 02:03:57,000
Speaker 8: in it. One of the reasons you're going to waterproof

2291
02:03:57,040 --> 02:03:59,960
Speaker 8: everything in your bag is because every single water reservoir

2292
02:04:00,280 --> 02:04:03,280
Speaker 8: that you put in your backpack will break at some point,

2293
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:06,200
Speaker 8: and when it does, it will send its contents into

2294
02:04:06,280 --> 02:04:08,200
Speaker 8: your bag and it will be a bad day. Un

2295
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:10,640
Speaker 8: As you've water proved everything, this will happen to you,

2296
02:04:11,080 --> 02:04:13,120
Speaker 8: especially if you like sit down and lean back and

2297
02:04:13,160 --> 02:04:15,240
Speaker 8: then you crush it. So that's where you're gonna water

2298
02:04:15,320 --> 02:04:17,600
Speaker 8: with everything. But I think hydro pack like the best ones.

2299
02:04:18,240 --> 02:04:20,680
Speaker 8: I really like that insulated ones. Even if you don't

2300
02:04:20,720 --> 02:04:27,200
Speaker 8: get an insulated bladder, get an insulated sucky cue SUSA worcherine.

2301
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:32,400
Speaker 8: Thank you, last podcast of the day here, guys. Yeah,

2302
02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 8: getting intated straw because when it's really cold, otherwise your

2303
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:40,000
Speaker 8: straw will freeze because it's like a small amount of

2304
02:04:40,040 --> 02:04:41,760
Speaker 8: water right when it freezes more quickly.

2305
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:44,080
Speaker 3: I never thought of that. I've only backpacked and highten

2306
02:04:44,160 --> 02:04:44,880
Speaker 3: really hot weather.

2307
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:48,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, when it's below freezing, like even like I was

2308
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:51,640
Speaker 8: out on Palomar in October A Ferry turned from Curtis

2309
02:04:51,720 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 8: Dan So it was you know, below freezing top of

2310
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:57,040
Speaker 8: the mountain and know my water froze. You can blow

2311
02:04:57,200 --> 02:04:58,880
Speaker 8: your water back out again, but you're just going to

2312
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:01,600
Speaker 8: forget to do that realistic. And then yeah, the last

2313
02:05:01,640 --> 02:05:04,840
Speaker 8: thing I had was hiking poles. Hiking poles are great.

2314
02:05:04,840 --> 02:05:07,240
Speaker 8: You've never had a pole, You never had a pole,

2315
02:05:07,360 --> 02:05:08,720
Speaker 8: if you ever had a stick, I mean.

2316
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:11,160
Speaker 3: It's like fine ones. And I guess I don't hike

2317
02:05:11,240 --> 02:05:14,000
Speaker 3: on the things I might need a poll for. I

2318
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:14,880
Speaker 3: guess I don't know.

2319
02:05:15,040 --> 02:05:17,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're great if you're someone who's like maybe has

2320
02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:21,520
Speaker 8: some injuries or you're worried about your knees just because

2321
02:05:21,760 --> 02:05:24,640
Speaker 8: they hurt in general life. They were a great way

2322
02:05:24,720 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 8: to take this strain.

2323
02:05:25,360 --> 02:05:26,760
Speaker 3: Off of the I'm trying to give innce my mom

2324
02:05:26,840 --> 02:05:28,440
Speaker 3: to get a pair of poles because I think she

2325
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:30,240
Speaker 3: would really benefit from them because she wants to go

2326
02:05:30,320 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 3: on all these hikes and yeah, just needs help. So

2327
02:05:33,440 --> 02:05:35,400
Speaker 3: there's no shame in getting a pole or two.

2328
02:05:36,080 --> 02:05:41,600
Speaker 8: I will donate your mom some poles. Sarene Oh, it's

2329
02:05:41,680 --> 02:05:44,040
Speaker 8: my Gift's my gift you. Saren's mom helped me translate

2330
02:05:44,080 --> 02:05:46,200
Speaker 8: for some migrants the other day. My mom's the best

2331
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:50,240
Speaker 8: I'll send you. Don't be afraid of using them. Don't

2332
02:05:50,280 --> 02:05:52,400
Speaker 8: be thinking that like anyone's going to judge you for

2333
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:54,720
Speaker 8: using them. Like, if that makes you feel more stable

2334
02:05:54,760 --> 02:05:58,120
Speaker 8: and comfortable, go for it. Don't buy the ones that

2335
02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:02,240
Speaker 8: telescope I mean by telescope, like, yeah, because they collapse.

2336
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:05,640
Speaker 8: And I remember I was up in the Sierras six

2337
02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:08,080
Speaker 8: or seven years ago now and it was fucking snowyer

2338
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:11,960
Speaker 8: than I'd expected. Then my stupid hiking pole collapsed into itself.

2339
02:06:12,920 --> 02:06:16,800
Speaker 8: It just just made the day like less fun.

2340
02:06:17,040 --> 02:06:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine that.

2341
02:06:19,120 --> 02:06:21,680
Speaker 8: But otherwise it stick is great, right, find a nice stick,

2342
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,600
Speaker 8: fine with a nice notch your thumb. Get it from

2343
02:06:24,640 --> 02:06:26,920
Speaker 8: a nice type of wood. Used to love making sticks

2344
02:06:26,960 --> 02:06:29,160
Speaker 8: when it was little. You can get a stick topper.

2345
02:06:29,200 --> 02:06:31,000
Speaker 8: You can order them online. You know, it's got like

2346
02:06:31,080 --> 02:06:33,320
Speaker 8: a head of a dog or a pheasant.

2347
02:06:33,040 --> 02:06:35,720
Speaker 3: Or a cane. It's like a fancy little cane.

2348
02:06:36,280 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, we had crooks, you know, a crook no for

2349
02:06:40,760 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 8: like when you're catching your sheep.

2350
02:06:42,960 --> 02:06:47,080
Speaker 3: James, Why you mean, like there's the hook looking thing.

2351
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:49,600
Speaker 8: Yes, yeah, it's called a croak.

2352
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:50,480
Speaker 5: I did not know that.

2353
02:06:51,000 --> 02:06:53,000
Speaker 3: I know what you're talking now that you mentioned sheep,

2354
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:55,960
Speaker 3: I know what that is, but I've never known. Yeah,

2355
02:06:56,000 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 3: because you're sheep eggs. But yeah, it's got a crook.

2356
02:06:59,560 --> 02:07:00,800
Speaker 3: We said that's great for walking.

2357
02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:03,880
Speaker 8: I can see that. Yeah, yeah, so we we used

2358
02:07:03,880 --> 02:07:05,120
Speaker 8: to use those a lot when I was a kid.

2359
02:07:05,240 --> 02:07:08,280
Speaker 8: But yeah, having one is great. And I think, especially

2360
02:07:08,600 --> 02:07:12,400
Speaker 8: like if you're nervous about falling going with your person

2361
02:07:12,440 --> 02:07:15,000
Speaker 8: who worries about their knees, if you're picking your first route,

2362
02:07:15,040 --> 02:07:16,800
Speaker 8: keep it pretty flat. If you're going up and down

2363
02:07:16,840 --> 02:07:18,600
Speaker 8: a lot of elevation and you're worried about how that's

2364
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:20,200
Speaker 8: going to feel, the pole's a very good way to

2365
02:07:20,280 --> 02:07:22,560
Speaker 8: mitigate someone worried that I'm going to fall on my knees.

2366
02:07:22,760 --> 02:07:25,520
Speaker 8: But yeah, don't feel afraid of using that stuff. Oh,

2367
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,120
Speaker 8: I forgot to say one thing. In my shoes. Think

2368
02:07:27,280 --> 02:07:31,280
Speaker 8: chacos are the best sandals. Fuck all other sandals. That's

2369
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 8: what I have to say about that. You know when

2370
02:07:32,680 --> 02:07:35,440
Speaker 8: you're cool because you have the z from the chaco's

2371
02:07:35,720 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 8: burned onto your feet. Well, unless you practice foot skincare,

2372
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 8: which I've not upgraded to that level yet.

2373
02:07:41,600 --> 02:07:44,280
Speaker 3: I was thinking about getting those. I remember I was

2374
02:07:44,480 --> 02:07:46,360
Speaker 3: signing between those and something else, and I go off

2375
02:07:46,400 --> 02:07:47,960
Speaker 3: for something else, But now I have to go back

2376
02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:48,480
Speaker 3: and get those.

2377
02:07:49,040 --> 02:07:51,640
Speaker 8: A couple of years ago, I rafted with some people

2378
02:07:51,640 --> 02:07:53,680
Speaker 8: who listened to the podcast. They invited me and I

2379
02:07:53,760 --> 02:07:55,839
Speaker 8: went and we did a week on the Colorado.

2380
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:56,640
Speaker 3: Oh that's so cool.

2381
02:07:57,280 --> 02:08:00,400
Speaker 8: You're so trusting little irl. I like to go.

2382
02:08:00,560 --> 02:08:01,280
Speaker 5: So it was cool.

2383
02:08:01,800 --> 02:08:05,320
Speaker 8: I like people. So some of them reached out and

2384
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:07,120
Speaker 8: I said, yeah, let let's go for a rafting trip.

2385
02:08:07,120 --> 02:08:08,960
Speaker 8: So we went on a rafting trip on the Colorado River.

2386
02:08:09,320 --> 02:08:11,280
Speaker 8: And now I wore my chackos the whole time while

2387
02:08:11,320 --> 02:08:11,800
Speaker 8: sun cream.

2388
02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:12,560
Speaker 4: None of the time.

2389
02:08:13,400 --> 02:08:16,720
Speaker 8: Feet were just roasted, just red, but with a little

2390
02:08:16,800 --> 02:08:20,080
Speaker 8: z from the chat. But for the whole summer anyways,

2391
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:22,360
Speaker 8: they are very comfortable sandals. One of my friends, another

2392
02:08:22,400 --> 02:08:25,920
Speaker 8: podcast listener, is hiking the PCT in his chackos right now.

2393
02:08:26,280 --> 02:08:29,760
Speaker 8: Thanks go to Canada. So yeah, I hope you're doing well.

2394
02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:33,440
Speaker 8: They know who they are. Surprisingly enough, I've gone long

2395
02:08:33,560 --> 02:08:34,760
Speaker 8: talking about outdoor things.

2396
02:08:35,080 --> 02:08:38,320
Speaker 3: But no, I'm glad you took the time to make

2397
02:08:38,400 --> 02:08:40,400
Speaker 3: this little list. I realized I don't have to be

2398
02:08:40,480 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 3: as big of a dummy as I thought. I thought

2399
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:43,200
Speaker 3: I was going to come in here and being a

2400
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:45,320
Speaker 3: huge dummy. I know more than I think I do.

2401
02:08:45,760 --> 02:08:49,800
Speaker 3: You know, and I know what to do outside most

2402
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:50,280
Speaker 3: of the time.

2403
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:53,120
Speaker 8: Yes, sure, yes you do. Thank you for listening to

2404
02:08:53,200 --> 02:08:56,400
Speaker 8: me talking about going outside. If you have any questions,

2405
02:08:56,920 --> 02:08:59,320
Speaker 8: you can DM me on Twitter. That is the only

2406
02:08:59,360 --> 02:09:02,800
Speaker 8: way I community with anyone. Now, don't have a DM me,

2407
02:09:02,840 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 8: and I'll send you my email. But really, like, I

2408
02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:08,200
Speaker 8: just want people to feel that the outdoors is for

2409
02:09:08,320 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 8: them and feel safe and feel comfortable, and feel like

2410
02:09:12,640 --> 02:09:14,760
Speaker 8: they know all the things they need to know, and

2411
02:09:15,280 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 8: to not buy stuff because someone's getting three percent back

2412
02:09:19,280 --> 02:09:20,680
Speaker 8: on it even though they've never touched it in their

2413
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:22,840
Speaker 8: whole lives. And also, like, I know that we're all

2414
02:09:22,880 --> 02:09:25,800
Speaker 8: fucking poor and spending your money is hard. So I've

2415
02:09:25,840 --> 02:09:28,960
Speaker 8: tried to suggest stuff it's not crazy expensive or that

2416
02:09:29,040 --> 02:09:31,240
Speaker 8: you can find on sale, but if you have questions.

2417
02:09:31,640 --> 02:09:33,720
Speaker 8: Oh one more thing, There's a company called Outdoor Vitals

2418
02:09:33,760 --> 02:09:35,960
Speaker 8: which has a subscription. You can be a member and

2419
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:37,360
Speaker 8: then you can get a lot of their stuff cheaping

2420
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:39,880
Speaker 8: for backpacking. It's a good company and they make some

2421
02:09:39,920 --> 02:09:41,760
Speaker 8: good stuff, and they do some good stuff the outdoors

2422
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:43,920
Speaker 8: as well. But yeah, if you have questions, you can

2423
02:09:44,120 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 8: message me. We will do one about what to put

2424
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:50,600
Speaker 8: in your bag when you get backpacking. Eventually. Yeah, go outside.

2425
02:09:51,080 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 8: Send us your photos if you're going outside, if they're

2426
02:09:54,080 --> 02:09:55,080
Speaker 8: not weird, we would like that.

2427
02:09:56,160 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of polls on media.

2428
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:01,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts, we call Zone Media. Visitor a website,

2429
02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:03,640
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2430
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:07,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2431
02:10:07,400 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

2432
02:10:10,640 --> 02:10:12,520
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

2433
02:10:13,120 --> 02:10:15,480
Speaker 1: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2434
02:10:15,720 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visitor a website,

2435
02:10:18,440 --> 02:10:20,640
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2436
02:10:20,720 --> 02:10:24,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2437
02:10:24,520 --> 02:10:26,640
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could happen here, updated

2438
02:10:26,720 --> 02:10:30,720
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.