WEBVTT - TechStuff Classic: TechStuff Gets an ESRB Rating 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.240 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production of I Heart Radios 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:13.760 How Stuff Works. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.560 I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:18.600 How Stuff Works in iHeart Radio and I love all 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:22.520 things tech in. Today's episode is a classic episode that 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:26.520 originally published on November nineteenth, two thousand and twelve. It's 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:30.120 titled tech Stuff Gets an E s r B Rating 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:32.360 and I talked about E s r B ratings not 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.680 too long ago. But in this episode, Chris Palette and 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:39.280 I actually talk about the e s r B rating system, 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.519 where it came from, how it's used, and to get 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.120 a deeper understanding of what it's for and you know 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:50.880 why it exists. I hope you guys enjoy we're doing 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:56.240 an episode about the e s RB. Okay, so are 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.120 you okay? I am okay. It's the Entertainment Software Rating 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:02.160 Board and this this is actually a request that was 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:03.920 sent to us by a couple of different listeners who 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.240 wanted to know more about this system. It's history, why 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:10.320 do we have it, does it work? What's it all about? 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:14.640 So in general, the E s r B. Sorry Alfie, 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.280 he has r V. What's it all about Alfie. The 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.280 E s r V is a it's a rating system 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.320 for video games, and it's it's a rating system not 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.120 for the quality of the game, but what is the content, 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:29.880 how the content of the game shapes the game, and 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:35.559 whether or not that content is um uh suitable for 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:40.040 different age groups. So just running through the different ratings 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.640 really quickly. Uh. The E s r B has ratings 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.120 for e C, which is early childhood. That's games that 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.680 are suitable for ages three and older. Younger than three, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.440 we just typically say these are people who probably can't 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.600 process what the heck is going on anyway, so it 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.600 really doesn't matter what it is, but not really appropriate 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.320 in any case. Get that two year old off my Xbox. Uh, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:08.320 E is for everyone, which is actually not everyone. It's 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.640 really content that's suitable for ages six and older. Keeping 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:15.360 in mind that content that's EC early childhood probably has 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:20.280 gameplay elements that most people all over the age of 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:24.440 six wouldn't be terribly interested in. Um. I say most 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.200 because there are exceptions. I mean, I'm not going to 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.560 pass judgment on Chris if he wants to play lots 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.560 of e C games. There's eight ten, ten plus, which 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:38.720 is everyone ten and older, so against slightly more restrictive 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.440 than just the E T four teen uh M for 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.960 mature meaning people who are seventeen or older uh and 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:54.400 AO AO which is adults only, which has content in 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.639 it that should only be played by people of eighteen 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.680 years of age or older according to their rating according 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.720 to the rating A and each of these each of 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.400 these ratings have their own criteria as to you know, 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.080 what what constitutes a T rate rating as opposed to 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.680 an M rating. And in general, what we're talking about 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.520 here are types of content that might include things like 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:23.160 gambling that that will up a E. S R B 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.400 rating on a game to a higher one to like 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:32.720 M or whatever. H violence, blood, gore, sexual content, strong language, 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.119 drug use, this kind of stuff sort of the same 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.960 things that you would see with the Motion Picture Association 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.520 of America with their rating system for movies. In fact, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.120 there are a lot of parallels. And you might say, 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.720 all right, so we have this rating system, Uh, how 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.120 did that get started? And really to to understand that, 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.400 you have to go back into the history of video games, 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.760 I would argue in a way that you'd have to 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.600 go back into the history of entertainment content because I 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:06.000 think e s RB is, well, it's a consortium really, 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.000 and and the thing is, I think they we're paying 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.920 attention to what had happened to people in other industries 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:20.880 as well, right It just before the before the early nineties, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.560 it was kind of a moot point only because video 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:29.160 games were fairly primitive as far as graphics are concerned. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.479 So it was not easy to graphically represent something that 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:37.560 would be objectionable. Uh, not that people didn't try, and 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:40.840 not that there aren't exceptions, because there are, I'm thinking 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.840 of one right off the top of my head for 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:48.720 the Atari Twenty Days, but you could not realistically represent 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:55.200 things like uh, graphic violence or sexual content before the 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.760 sixteen bit era. It was just really the consideration was 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.760 that the eight bit era and earlier, everything was so 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:06.760 blocky and so pixelated that it didn't really resemble reality. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.880 It was more like seeing something in a cartoon. So uh, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.440 you know, you might watch a cartoon as a kid 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:17.400 of Wildly Coyote and the roadrunner, and the road runner 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.640 does something and Wildly Coyote suffers a terrible injury, and 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:22.520 there are some people who would argue that that could 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.839 be harmful to kids, uh, seeing how it shaped me 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.919 and who I am. Well that's anecdotal anyway. And Chris, uh, 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:32.839 you know, don't worry. I'm not going to do anything 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:36.400 with this enormous mallet behind me. Um he he he. Well, yes, 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.919 I and you know that there were some exceptions. I 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.120 do bear a striking resemblance to my character from Adventure 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.599 on the right. Just a block, because I am a block, 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:49.200 just a just a block, just one pixel block, but 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.120 a giant pixel. Uh. Once we got into the sixteen 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:57.640 bit era, we started to have more realistic, more fluid graphics, 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.800 and there was you know, the the population that was 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.919 playing video games was beginning to grow older. You know, 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:08.599 you were you had people who had started playing video 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.080 games as kids on systems like the Atari or the 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:16.039 Ninteno Entertainment System or whatever, and so they were continuing 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.360 to play video games as they got older, and their 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.920 interests began to um go into more what we call 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.440 mature subjects. So just like people who watched movies, you know, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.400 they might want to go see an R rated movie 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.880 or something, uh, same sort of thing. And so the 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.000 video game publishers began to cater to that audience. I mean, 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.200 you've got to remember also the people who were developing 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.880 video games. They were video game players, you know, when 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.000 they were kids. And we're talking about the early nineties here. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.440 The people who played video games in the very early 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.520 eighties were now the people who were making video games 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.280 in the nineties. Their tastes had matured, and so you 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.479 started to see video games that were depicting violence in 0:06:56.520 --> 0:07:01.160 a more realistic and graphic way than ever before, and 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:05.080 that began to raise some concerns in the minds of 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:09.880 certain people. UH. Some of those people held quite a 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:14.680 bit of influence, people like UH, the Senator Joe Lieberman 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:21.600 UH and Senator Herb Herb Cole. They both were concerned 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.920 and they had hearings in the United States Senate about 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.800 video game violence and how that affected children and whether 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.080 or not in fact, video games were contributing to the 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:37.960 corruption of society. This is not a new thing at all. 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:42.240 We have had politicians worry about various forms of entertainment 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:46.320 corrupting the youth and ruining everything. And that's why apple 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:49.160 pie doesn't taste as sweet. It's why you can't walk 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.040 down the street at night. It's why you have to 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.760 lock your doors when you leave in the evening. It's 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.280 it's why you you never have the paper because your 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.600 neighbor always steals it. It's it's it's the perp. It's 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:05.320 actually the reason why everything is terrible. Now I'm exaggerating 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.640 for effect. I didn't know if you were you were, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.680 you know, well no, but um but yeah, I mean. 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.760 And then it's not just politicians, of course, their parents associations. 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.840 There are just concerned citizens who draw conclusions that a 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.320 form of entertainment and the its popularity among a certain 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:30.760 group might in fact influence that certain group to behave 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.160 in a negative way or to be desensitized against violence 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.240 for example. Exactly. Yes, so not necessarily they'll go out 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.000 and hit somebody over the head with a mallet, But 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.600 if they see someone else hit someone over the head 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.320 with a mallet, they won't necessarily spring to action. Um yeah. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.120 There there are concerns, and there have been lots of 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:53.760 different studies with very different outcomes about whether or not 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.760 violence in media affects people in a real way beyond 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.960 you know, beyond like a visceral reaction. Does it have 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.880 a lasting impact on a person's personality. Those are questions 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.080 that still have not been fully answered because there are 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.320 a lot of studies out there with conflicting results. I 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.240 know what I believe, but but there are results the 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.840 conflict with what I believe. So well, as it turns out, 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.600 it may be one of those frustrating situation where it 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.880 may depend on the individual person, right, Well, in which 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.320 case I would argue that that's a person that's a 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.839 person issue, not a not an industry issue, right because 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.160 it's it's one of those things you can make the 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.720 argument of, well, if this one person who was affected 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.800 by this one type of media were to instead have 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.320 fixated upon another type of media, we'd be having the 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:44.040 same discussion, but we'd be having it about music. And 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.559 this discussion has been about music. It has been about television, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:51.319 it has been about film, it's been about novels. It's 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.720 been about classical music. I mean, any form of entertainment. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.400 You can imagine. It's gone through this experience of people 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.760 talking about, you know, that novel, that new fangled way 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.320 of putting words together and creating fanciful fictional stories is 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:09.720 ruining everything. Oh yeah, that that Actually there were people 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:14.280 who said that novels we're bringing about the downfall of society. Well, hey, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.600 I recently read that that Plato I think it was, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:22.320 had rebelled against the written words. He said, no, it's 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.800 because writing things down means that you are sapping your 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:30.040 own ability to think that was the idea. It's it's 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.280 the same argument about Google making us stupid, because everything 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.520 that we need to know is on the web now, 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:38.199 so we don't need to remember it in our our 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.040 meat space heads. Um. So yeah, I mean, anyway, like 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.400 we the point of that whole thing is just to 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.000 say video games are not unique in this situation. This 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:51.400 has gone through multiple venues, multiple forms of media. But 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.400 in this case you had a lot of pressure coming 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.920 from the United States government for something to be done 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:03.560 in the video game industry. Within the industry itself or 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.240 the ultimatum was, if you guys don't get together and 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.680 figure out a way of taking care of this, then 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.040 we're gonna do it. We being the United States government, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.160 and the industry was like, did not want that to happen. 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.959 They did not want to have some sort of federal 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:21.040 regulation in place over the video game industry, and so 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.760 it was imperative to come up with some sort of 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:29.240 industry based ratings system that could be demonstrably proven to 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.160 be as objective as possible, so it's not you know, 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.840 it's not pulling the wool over anyone's eyes or anything. Uh. 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:41.120 And to have some sort of enforceable policy. Yeah, those 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:43.800 were all important issues. Yeah. And and again they're they're 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:48.439 taking their their their cues from other similar or other 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:52.600 entertainment industries, like the Motion Picture Association of America with 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:56.400 with movie ratings several decades prior, and of course the 0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:01.079 Comics Code from comic books after Frederick Wortham's uh um 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:06.120 Seduction of the Innocent um. Wow. But yeah, I mean, 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.680 these these industries self regulated. They said, okay, okay, you 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.319 know what, we'll get together. We'll form a group, and 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.520 we will come up with a rating system that helps 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.559 people identify what kind of content to you know, will 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:20.800 be in the package when you when you do this. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.080 And yeah, I mean there were there were certain games 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.880 in particular, I think some you know, like Mortal Kombats. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.040 That's the one. The Mortal Kombat, I think more than 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:33.000 any other video game, has been cited as the the 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.440 genesis of this discussion. I mean there are other ones 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:40.040 to like Doom that was another big one, domm Night 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:44.640 Trap for home games, Lethal Enforcers, which was, as I recall, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.079 a light gun based game. So I mean, yeah, these 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:48.880 these were games that had a lot of violence in them. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.240 Of course, by today's games standards, if you're talking about 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.360 a truly, truly violent game in today's standards, they might 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.720 seem quaint in comparison. Yeah, but but you know, that 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.840 was what caused these conversations to happen, and as a result, 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:08.000 the games industry are actually different. Companies within the industry 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.720 all began to suggest ratings systems, and in fact, there 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.160 were quite a few. In the earliest days. There were 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.360 several competing One. Sega came out with one, the Video 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.800 Game Rating Council. Uh. Yep, Video Game Rating Council was 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:26.280 from Sega. There was the three D O suggested one. Uh. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:31.839 They they had the Recreational Software Advisory Council formed by 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.760 Software Publishers Association, and then there was one called the 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:41.160 Interactive Digital Software Association, which again was a uh it's 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.640 a collection, it's a collection of software companies that were 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:51.120 uh advocating for a particular rating system, and that I 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:56.160 D s A. It's eventually became the Entertainment Software Rating 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.240 Board e s r B. As we now know it, 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:05.000 that got present it to Congress, and in uh Congress 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.760 approved the form the formation of the s E s 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.120 R B, and they you know, it was formally made 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.800 the rating system for American video games. So if you 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.480 pick up a video game in America, a video game case, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.680 there's a very good chance, in fact, an overwhelmingly good chance, 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.520 that you will see a little black box with white 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.480 white inside, and then there's a black letter that indicates 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:35.120 what the rating for that particular game is UM and 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:39.520 and that's become the standard essentially. And here's the thing 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.080 is that there's there's no The reason for this again 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.760 is so that the consumer has an idea of what 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.360 type of content is going to be in that game. Uh, 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:54.520 it's it's not specifically meant to dictate two retailers what 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.000 they need to do with each type of game. Like 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.200 in other words, there's no rule that says, okay, anything 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:06.120 that is rated T or or higher in the on 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.720 the maturity scale like T or M or a O 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.360 cannot be three feet off the floor. It has to 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:15.920 be higher up than that. Like, there's no rule about that. 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.360 There's no there's no specific policy in place or law 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.640 in place that says you have to be a certain 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:24.880 age to be able to buy a game. The rating 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.400 is there as a guide to say this is what, 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:31.160 this is who the game is intended. You know, we 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.520 mean this for people who are seventeen or older or 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.200 eighteen or older. Chris and I have more to say 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.120 about the s r B rating system, but before we 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:49.080 get to that, let's take a quick break. There was 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.840 the United States Supreme Court found that that you cannot 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:59.760 restrict mature or adults only titles to specific age groups 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.920 to be cause video game content falls under the realm 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.720 of free speech, which cannot be infringed upon by the government. 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:10.640 Now that doesn't mean that the stores can't have policies, 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:13.040 because the stores are not the government. In fact, that 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.720 was the whole reason why this board was formed, was 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.800 so that they could keep that separation between government and business. 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.640 So a an actual retailer, if you were to go 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.800 to a video game store, they might have a policy 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.200 that says, we do not sell uh any game that 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.720 is ranked M or AO to anyone under the age 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.640 of seventeen, and we will ask for I D. And 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.320 that's their policy, and it's perfectly fine. The government can't 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:44.720 restrict it, but a store can and UH also go 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.600 ahead and say it. AO games very rarely get carried 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:51.960 in stores because it's kind of the same thing as 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.840 the n C seventeen rating for films. Films that get 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.520 an NC seventeen rating very very rarely get any sort 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.560 of relief in most theaters. You might have a few 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.159 independent theaters that will run in C seventeen movies, but 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:08.520 in general they do not get any sort of wide 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.560 release at all. It's very rare when that happens. So 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:13.600 the same sort of thing with AO games. So getting 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.359 an AO rating. If you are a game publisher and 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.320 you develop a game and you submit it to the 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:20.840 e s r B and you get an A O rating, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.919 your first reaction might be, we need to change this 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.840 because no one's going to carry our game in stores 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.480 and we're not going to make any money. Yeah. Yeah, Now, 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.479 they don't They don't necessarily play all of the games. 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.880 Actually they don't. They don't play the games at all. Well, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.240 they do have in house testers, according to the s 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.399 r B, who do go through it um and as 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.400 a result of UH the whole hot Coffee incident, they 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.480 are supposed to at least disclose everything that's in the 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:53.760 in the package that you could get even if it's hidden. Okay, 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.360 So in order to in order to understand what Chris 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:57.720 has just said, you know, we have to have some 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.679 background here. First of all, the general way that a 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.600 game manufacturer submits a game to the s r B 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:08.359 E s RBS UH general way of testing a game 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.000 doesn't necessarily involve playing it. It can involve playing it, 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.719 but to play a game and to really get a 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.520 sense of what the content is all about can take 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.800 hours and hours and hours of gameplay, so they don't 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.800 play every single game that comes into them all the 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.600 way through. What they do tend to do, though, is 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.439 part of the E s r B ratings processes. They 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.040 require a game manufacturer to submit a DVD that has 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.840 on it the examples of the most extreme types of 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.800 content that game has. So, in other words, you're watching 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:46.240 like a clip compilation of the worst of this game, 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.040 worst being in the sense of like the most intense content. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.640 So if if it has any sort of violent content, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:58.480 or uh, sexually graphic content, or or foul language, anything 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.080 like that, anything that would affect the rating, the most 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.919 intense examples of that are supposed to be included on 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.160 the DVD so that the ratings experts who are trained 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:14.560 in UH the the processes that the E s r 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.840 B uses to determine the rating for a game, so 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.040 that they can determine what rating applies here. And if 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:25.720 you were to release a game that turned out to 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:29.600 contain content that went beyond what you showed the DVD 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:34.240 in the DVD, you could suffer some pretty stiff fines industry. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.320 UH the industry itself would find you and you could 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.840 face a recall which could be very expensive to recall 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.199 all the copies of the game. Now that is the 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.120 case when when Christmas talking about the hot Coffee incident, 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.320 that's specifically talking about it was Grand Theft Auto four right, 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.080 I want to say, or Grand Theft Auto San Andreas. 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.760 Grand Theft Auto s Andreas was specifically what it was. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.800 Uh I owned that game. So this was something that 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.280 was originally included in the game, and it was a 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.760 mini game, and it was it was a sexual encounter 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:11.399 and it was Ultimately the game designers decided not to 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.960 include it in the game, but they didn't remove it 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.160 so much as they kind of the code was still there, 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.399 but it was inactive. It was sort of like an 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.160 Easter egg. Well, yeah, you could get to it if 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:26.960 you if you knew how to either uh, if you 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:30.760 knew how to either alter an Xbox console or if 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.600 you're using the PC version, if you were able to 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.840 use some software to activate the code, you could get 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.280 access to this game. But it was this mini game 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.320 within the game, but it was not intended for public consumption, 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.320 at least that's what the publisher said. And the problem 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.919 was that went outside what they had submitted to the 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.320 ratings board, and they had their original rating for that 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.199 game was M for mature. That mini game pushed it 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.440 over to adults only, and so they ended up doing 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.520 a recall and republishing the game without the code in 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:09.600 at all so they could regain that M mature rating. Ah, 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.639 if you were to uh submit your game again, you 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.000 would send this DVD to the e s r B. 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:20.320 They would have up to well at least three people 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:25.800 looking at it. Those three people would have experience with kids. 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:28.400 That's actually one of the requirements is that they would 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:31.160 have to have some sort of experience, either professional or personal, 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.159 with children in order to be able to view the 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:38.400 content and then judge at what age level is this appropriate, 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:42.840 and so it's not just you know, some scientists with 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:47.040 beakers and uh, not that kind of beaker, but with 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.440 a like electronic device is saying, well, scientifically, we've determined 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.800 that sixteen is exactly the age at which this game 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.480 can be sold, and no one under sixteen should ever 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.080 play it. It's not that it's uh, it's a little 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:03.880 more subjective than that. In fact, so is in fact 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.520 the film rating system. It's not there's no rating system 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:12.800 that I know of that is truly objective, so that 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.960 you may find examples of games on the market where 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.200 you're thinking, this game is rated T for team, this 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.120 game is rated M for mature, and I cannot see 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:26.040 a significant difference in content between the two games. That's 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:30.520 entirely possible. Same with M and A O. You might say, well, 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:35.040 why did this incredibly violent game get a mature rating? 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:39.600 But this game which has a brief UH scene, that's 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:41.760 that's part of the game that has some sort of 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:45.480 sexuality to it that got AO. And again it also 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:50.040 brings into question things like the cultural values like which 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:54.240 this gets discussions all the time. Why do we think 0:22:54.320 --> 0:23:00.280 of violence being more acceptable than uh scenes that depicts sexuality? 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.800 For example. And I mean there's that's a complicated cultural 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:08.359 question that goes well beyond the scope of UH this podcast. 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:10.720 I mean that it would be a fascinating discussion but 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.000 doesn't really play into here. But yeah, if you take 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.320 a look, there's there's a list that they maintained that 0:23:17.400 --> 0:23:21.840 the s r B maintains of all the games that 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:25.960 have received an AO rating. It's a tiny, tiny list. 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.440 There's not many, and almost all of them, in fact, 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.240 all of them that I can think of, UH have 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.720 strong sexual content as one of the components of the game, 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.320 and except for one, was gambling and it was actual 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.040 gambling and that's what got it an AO rating, and 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:46.000 the rest were strong sexual content which gave it the 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.960 A O rating, Whereas there was I think only one 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.160 game that I can think of that merited and initially 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:56.240 merited an AO rating based solely upon violence, which was 0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.919 The Punisher, as I recall, and it was it just 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.840 it had such graphic depictions of violence and and torture 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:07.359 scenes that the game publisher ended up going back and 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:10.800 in order to avoid an AO rating, they changed. There 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:13.560