WEBVTT - Cutthroat 

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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<v Speaker 1>last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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<v Speaker 2>worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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<v Speaker 1>Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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<v Speaker 2>True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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<v Speaker 2>to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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<v Speaker 1>cases through a twenty first century lens.

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<v Speaker 2>Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Buried Bones.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing well. You were busy. That's what the crowd

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<v Speaker 1>is saying, is you're busy. I don't know who the

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<v Speaker 1>crowd is. That's what they say.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh you know, I've I have just been buried, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>of course recording the two podcasts, and you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>actually doing a lot of training for law enforcement, and

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<v Speaker 2>I have you know, the author and casework. But I'm

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<v Speaker 2>also doing an audible project, which is an active investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>And a few weeks ago, I just returned back from

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<v Speaker 2>the Bay Area and have some new information about the case.

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<v Speaker 2>And actually it's multiple cases, multiple homicides. It's one of

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<v Speaker 2>my old cases and it's a lot. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>trying to get this thing wrapped up so you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be ready for the listeners at some point when

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<v Speaker 2>Audible decides to release it. But you know, actual casework

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't necessarily line up with production schedules.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, I've noticed. I know that you have been

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<v Speaker 1>doing just a ton of stuff, which is always great.

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<v Speaker 1>It's an embarrassment of riches. So I'm always and especially

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<v Speaker 1>because you've got your foot at everything, and the active

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<v Speaker 1>investigations is what helps us the most. Being totally selfish, Paul,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what I care about, is what actually helps the

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<v Speaker 1>listeners in me.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I appreciate that thought. You know, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing what I used to do before I retired

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<v Speaker 2>in similar capacity, not identical, because I'm no longer a

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<v Speaker 2>peace officer. I don't have access to stuff, and I

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<v Speaker 2>have to rely on law enforcement agencies and give them

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<v Speaker 2>guidance and hope that they follow through. But trying to

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<v Speaker 2>do that in addition to doing sort of the true

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<v Speaker 2>crime aspect. Yeah, you know it is. It's turned into

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<v Speaker 2>somewhat of a struggle just to figure out how to

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<v Speaker 2>allot my time. But so far, you know, I seem

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<v Speaker 2>to be staying afloat and hopefully things will turn out

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<v Speaker 2>good in the long run.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this more relaxing your schedule now than when you

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<v Speaker 1>were working working with the Sheriff's department or wherever you were?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's well, it's it's very different, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, the casework was always a passion

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<v Speaker 2>and it can be stressful. But when I was active,

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<v Speaker 2>I had other responsibilities. You know, I was, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>at with Sheriff's office. I was a division commander with

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<v Speaker 2>the DA's office. I was a chief and oversaw you know,

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<v Speaker 2>investigative units and other things, and you know, had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of administrative duties. So trying to juggle casework and

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<v Speaker 2>the administrative duties and reporting to a boss is a struggle. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, author might have a boss there, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, nowadays it's with what I'm doing, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of independence, and I do enjoy the independence.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can imagine that too. I mean, I'm juggling

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of stuff. I've got the book that came

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<v Speaker 1>out a couple of months ago. And then of course

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<v Speaker 1>those kids, Yeah, I've got those two. I've got those

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<v Speaker 1>two Carls stinking kids who had a sleepover in my cottage.

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, this is not what the game plan was.

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<v Speaker 1>The game plan was that I come out here and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm on my own and they loved it. They had

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<v Speaker 1>a great time. I think it was kind of spooky

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<v Speaker 1>for him. And it didn't help that I came out

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<v Speaker 1>at midnight and was knocking on the.

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<v Speaker 2>Walls wearing some ghoul mask.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't that what good parents do? I thought, that's what.

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<v Speaker 2>Is to keep them on their toes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I do that. So you know this, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to transition to a case that I think feels familiar,

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<v Speaker 1>which is unfortunate because we do spend an awful lot

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<v Speaker 1>of time talking about women who are found, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>by themselves dead, they've been potentially attacked, and it's a mystery.

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<v Speaker 1>I just feel like we've just said this over and

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<v Speaker 1>over and over again. And the more we talk about

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<v Speaker 1>things like this, you know, being alone in the dark,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, women feeling like they're being stalked, all

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<v Speaker 1>of that for me just makes it more and more

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<v Speaker 1>clear how how vulnerable women are, you know, and these

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<v Speaker 1>stories and we just keep going backwards in time and

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<v Speaker 1>it's the same old story.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and it's just it's such a sad state,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. It's it's very different, like I can go out,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say, if I want to do a jog, I

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<v Speaker 2>can go out jogging at night, and the chances of

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<v Speaker 2>me becoming a victim are much lower than if a

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<v Speaker 2>woman were to go out at the same time, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's I don't know what the answer is to that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. You know, my entire career has been really

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<v Speaker 2>focused on going after the men that victimize women. And

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, you know, how do we get this

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<v Speaker 2>where women can feel safe? And it sounds like you're

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<v Speaker 2>probably going to be telling me a story from I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know how long ago. You know, this is just

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<v Speaker 2>something that's been going on probably forever. Oh yeah, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's you know, it's just it's just sad.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. This is another I think difficult story. It's

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<v Speaker 1>set in eighteen ninety two, so we are going very

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<v Speaker 1>far back. Okay, So let's go ahead and set the

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<v Speaker 1>scene Wilmington, Delaware. I love Delaware. Love it, love it,

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<v Speaker 1>love it great state. I know this is like the

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<v Speaker 1>obligatory question I always ask, you haven't been to Delaware before?

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<v Speaker 1>Have you been to Wilmington before?

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<v Speaker 2>I have not been to Delaware nor Wilmington, or I

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<v Speaker 2>guess if I say, if I haven't been to Delaware,

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<v Speaker 2>then of course I haven't been to Wilmington. So no,

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<v Speaker 2>don't know it. You know that the kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>northeast part of the country is the area that I

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<v Speaker 2>really have the least amount of experience with.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, luckily for us, you have a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>experience with crime. So so don't worry about Delaware. Delaware

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<v Speaker 1>does not play a big role in this. Okay, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to set the scene. You know, sometimes I build

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<v Speaker 1>up to who's the victim and you know who's the killer,

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<v Speaker 1>And in this case, we're going to just start with

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<v Speaker 1>what investigators find. So eighteen ninety two, it's October twentieth,

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<v Speaker 1>around noon, and a man stumbles onto a horrific scene

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<v Speaker 1>as he's crossed a field and he's using this field

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<v Speaker 1>as a shortcut, and it's the body of a teenage girl.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of different bits of info, so I

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<v Speaker 1>might have to skip around on the document a little bit,

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<v Speaker 1>depending on what you want to hear about. But let

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<v Speaker 1>me tell you what he sees first. So she is seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>We know later she is lying on her back with

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<v Speaker 1>her head turned to one side, and she is fully

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<v Speaker 1>clothed except for her hat, which is about ten feet

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<v Speaker 1>from her body, so we would presume knocked off. And

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<v Speaker 1>it seems pretty obvious even to this man who finds her,

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<v Speaker 1>that she's been the victim of something very violent. She's

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<v Speaker 1>in a pool of blood, and her eyes are battered

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<v Speaker 1>and bruised in her throat, her throat is so deeply

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<v Speaker 1>severed that she's almost decapitated. And there is a razor,

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<v Speaker 1>which I'm assuming is a straight razor like you would

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<v Speaker 1>use in a barber shop, and there is a razor

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground beside her body. We have talked about

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<v Speaker 1>the amount of force, or the least amount of force

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<v Speaker 1>she needs to almost decapitate. Somebody, Can a woman do this?

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<v Speaker 1>You know it silly things like that. So can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me where you want to start? This is what

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<v Speaker 1>we know so far.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So obviously the woman is out in a field,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I want to know a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>more about you know, what kind of access out to

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<v Speaker 2>this field, what kind of field it is? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>she off of a trail or did somebody you know,

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<v Speaker 2>push their way through, you know, some sort of crop.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. The razor, you know, that sounds like something

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<v Speaker 2>that she would not carry herself, So that sounds like

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<v Speaker 2>something that the offender would have brought to the scene.

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<v Speaker 2>And razors, of course, are when they're maintained, the straight

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<v Speaker 2>razors are very very sharp, and so I've previously discussed

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<v Speaker 2>because it's it's always brought up. You know, you have

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<v Speaker 2>a throat cut, it's near decapitation. This must show that

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<v Speaker 2>there's just extreme violence and rage by the offender on

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<v Speaker 2>the victim. And the reality is that homicidal throat slashings

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<v Speaker 2>with a sharp edged weapon through the front of the neck,

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<v Speaker 2>the soft tissues, the trachia, it almost always looks like

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<v Speaker 2>its near decapitation. That's not surprising that she has such

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<v Speaker 2>a deep cut to her throat if the razor was

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<v Speaker 2>in fact used to cut it. You mentioned that she's

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<v Speaker 2>laying in a pool of blood, and of course i'd

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<v Speaker 2>want to see the distribution of this pool of blood.

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<v Speaker 2>It is consistent with her throat being cut while she's

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<v Speaker 2>laying down, and it just she bleeds out like that.

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<v Speaker 2>So she was overpowered ahead of time? Or has she

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<v Speaker 2>been moved after she starts bleeding? Does she have other

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<v Speaker 2>bleeding injuries? Does she have defensive injuries? The battered and

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<v Speaker 2>bruised eyes, if they are in fact indicative that she

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<v Speaker 2>was receiving blows to the face, probably ahead of her

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<v Speaker 2>throat being cut, This indicates that the offender used forced

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<v Speaker 2>to overpower her and she may have resisted. So there's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there's some information here that gives me a

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<v Speaker 2>sense as to what's going on, But of course the

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<v Speaker 2>devil's in the details.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't get a sense that there's blood anywhere else.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems like it's concentrated under her head or under

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<v Speaker 1>her throat. Okay, with this straight razor, sometimes I think,

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<v Speaker 1>is this a crime of opportunity where somebody is walking by,

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<v Speaker 1>he sees this young girl walking through this field and

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<v Speaker 1>he says, this is my opportunity. That seems unlikely, right,

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<v Speaker 1>because he's carrying a razor. It's not like he's carrying

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<v Speaker 1>a little gun as a personal protection. I mean, this

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<v Speaker 1>seems like something that's supposed to be threatening you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, maybe you know, but I don't know. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't seem like, you know, these straight razors would

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<v Speaker 2>be something that men would normally just randomly carry. I

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<v Speaker 2>think determining if it's a random crime or not really

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<v Speaker 2>relies more on the victimology. You know, what is her life,

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<v Speaker 2>life patterns? Why is she would she normally be passing

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<v Speaker 2>through this field? You know, different details like that. The

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<v Speaker 2>presence of the razor may indicate that the offender had

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<v Speaker 2>violence on his mind when he left wherever he left.

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<v Speaker 2>Or maybe he's a he's a barber and this is

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<v Speaker 2>his tool of trade and he always has one tucked away.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be a coincidence, I get, But you could

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<v Speaker 1>be right. I guess we'll find out. Yeah, well, we

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<v Speaker 1>do have some suspects, and we'll see what they do

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<v Speaker 1>for a living, and maybe your barber theory will come through. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll make things a lot easier.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>If I were a barber, I'm not sure I would

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<v Speaker 1>use a straight trade razor, but that would point right

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<v Speaker 1>to me. Okay, so let me tell you what. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to jump around a little bit. So this is

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<v Speaker 1>what we hear the corner says when they end up

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<v Speaker 1>doing an autopsy. So he says that Katie, her name

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<v Speaker 1>is Katie Dugan, that Katie had both of her carotid

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<v Speaker 1>arteries severed, and then this says as well as her

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<v Speaker 1>internal and external jugular and that now this is you know,

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<v Speaker 1>an assumption here. The depth of the slash to her

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<v Speaker 1>neck suggests that the perpetrator was very strong. We just

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<v Speaker 1>sort of talked about that, and what do you think

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<v Speaker 1>about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, the fact that both carotids, the crowdits

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<v Speaker 2>lay underneath the jugulars. So of course, just by the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that both crotids are cut indicates that it's a

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<v Speaker 2>very deep incision, which is not surprising oftentimes with cut

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<v Speaker 2>throats if the cut is more geared towards one side

0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:37.839
<v Speaker 2>or the other, and this sometimes could indicate which hand

0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the offender is holding the weapon in at the time

0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.439
<v Speaker 2>he cuts the throat. But you'll see, you know, the

0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.520
<v Speaker 2>left jugular and the left carotid cut, while the other

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.520
<v Speaker 2>ones are intact on the other side of the neck.

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:53.640
<v Speaker 2>With both crodits being cut and both external internal jugulars

0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.720
<v Speaker 2>being cut, this tells me that this throat cut was

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:02.120
<v Speaker 2>deep and cut. I wouldn't sayly straight across, but cut

0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.760
<v Speaker 2>through the neck on both sides of the neck. And

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>this is where I would not be surprised if it's

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.840
<v Speaker 2>low enough down on the neck that it possibly went

0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.880
<v Speaker 2>through the trachia. And I've actually seen that as well,

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.240
<v Speaker 2>where I'm looking down the trachia of somebody who has

0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.960
<v Speaker 2>had their throat cut. This is basically sudden death for Katy.

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.839
<v Speaker 2>You know, in essence, you know she's as soon as

0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.640
<v Speaker 2>her karates are cut, her brain is no longer receiving

0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a blood supply, and in essence, within ten seconds she's

0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.439
<v Speaker 2>unconscious and there's nothing that could be done to save her.

0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad that this happened quickly because it sounds horrific.

0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.680
<v Speaker 1>So I know that this is a gruesome question, and

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.560
<v Speaker 1>those are the kinds of questions I ask on this show.

0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.719
<v Speaker 1>Do you, as the offender need to be behind Katie

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 1>to make this kind of cut or can you be

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:56.040
<v Speaker 1>standing in front of her? I don't think I've ever

0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.600
<v Speaker 1>asked this question before about throats being slashed.

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.280
<v Speaker 2>It's either okay in terms of the relative position of

0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.480
<v Speaker 2>the offender to the victim at the time that the

0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>throat is cut, you know, there can be some indicators. However,

0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.000
<v Speaker 2>there's so many variables that I don't think you can

0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>make a definitive statement as to their relative positions just

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 2>based off of how the throat was cut.

0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so now let me tell you a little bit

0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>about Katie, because we do need to have some victimology here.

0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that we do have a corner's in quest,

0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 1>but I think it's more an in quest where they

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>know it's murder, but they want to discuss more of

0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.680
<v Speaker 1>the circumstances. Because the last detail that the corner gave

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.960
<v Speaker 1>us is that she was the seventeen year old girl

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.360
<v Speaker 1>four months pregnant. And I'm going to say it one

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.840
<v Speaker 1>more time. I say this in book talks, I say

0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.600
<v Speaker 1>it all the time. The National Institute of Health says

0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.360
<v Speaker 1>that homicide is the leading cause of death for women

0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.680
<v Speaker 1>who are pregnant and in the postpartum period. In America,

0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 1>leading cause of death is homicide. It is when women

0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.200
<v Speaker 1>are most vulnerable. So four months pregnant, and I will say,

0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 1>she is not married, and she lives with her parents.

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Recently she moved back in with her parents, So eighteen

0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.600
<v Speaker 1>ninety two, this would have been quite scandalous. So what

0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 1>do we think so far? Obviously this adds another dimension

0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 1>to Katie's life.

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, immediately, you know, my mind goes to, Okay, who

0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 2>is the biological father? What is that relationship? Is there

0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 2>any jeopardy that he might be under if it is

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:32.040
<v Speaker 2>found out that he is impregnated the seventeen year old

0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:38.120
<v Speaker 2>teenage girl. Then the other side is is she in

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:43.200
<v Speaker 2>a relationship with a man who she's got pregnant by

0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>and there's a jealous ex lover stalker, you know, somebody

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:53.040
<v Speaker 2>that is really upset that she's in this other relationship.

0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>So those are going to be kind of two things

0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 2>immediately on my mind. However, right now we don't know

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:02.960
<v Speaker 2>if this is somebody that even knows her right, you know,

0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.440
<v Speaker 2>But this is where the victimology starts to come into play.

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.720
<v Speaker 2>It's like, okay, given this time frame, eighteen ninety two,

0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 2>seventeen year old girl, unmarried who is four months pregnant,

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.320
<v Speaker 2>we know that this is something that society at that

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.240
<v Speaker 2>point in time is not going to be kind in

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.040
<v Speaker 2>thinking about. And this could cause jeopardy on whoever, you know,

0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 2>is who's responsible, especially you know, let's say it's you know,

0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.760
<v Speaker 2>as an example, you know, a religious figure from the

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:34.760
<v Speaker 2>church she attends, you know, and so he may resort

0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to violence in order to protect himself. And that right

0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 2>now is just sort of a you know, speculative type

0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 2>of scenario, but we know that based off of other

0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.720
<v Speaker 2>cases that we've done, that that is a real scenario

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 2>during this time, even today, you know, that would be

0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.840
<v Speaker 2>something that would have to be considered. You know, the

0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:57.680
<v Speaker 2>victimology ends up sometimes pointing within the victim's own social circles,

0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and you evaluate who's within her social circles that would

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:02.440
<v Speaker 2>benefit from her death.

0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.879
<v Speaker 1>Well, her parents say they had no idea that she

0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.560
<v Speaker 1>was pregnant, which, if they're telling the truth, I believe

0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.400
<v Speaker 1>she was four months pregnant. She could have at four

0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.640
<v Speaker 1>months covered that up. Sure, So I'll tell you more

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.359
<v Speaker 1>about Katie. She had been a domestic worker, live in

0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.040
<v Speaker 1>domestic worker. She moved back in with her parents. We

0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 1>don't know why just yet, but word of the murder

0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.480
<v Speaker 1>and her pregnancy comes as a shock to the whole community.

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.400
<v Speaker 1>So here's an interesting thing. So the investigators initially, when

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:34.480
<v Speaker 1>they look at the scene, they think that whoever killed

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.280
<v Speaker 1>her put this razor right next to her. To make

0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.560
<v Speaker 1>it look like she took her own life. Then of

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 1>course they immediate, thankfully, they immediately dismissed that. And I

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.440
<v Speaker 1>know that we've talked about people have taken their own

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 1>lives with razors before, which I just find horrific. But

0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.879
<v Speaker 1>they immediately say, just based on the cuts, it just

0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.760
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem like something she could do to herself. But

0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.480
<v Speaker 1>you have had, without being too graphic, you've had instances

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.040
<v Speaker 1>where people really have been able to get it do

0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:02.959
<v Speaker 1>a really deep cut on themselves.

0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes. No, I have a case where an adult male

0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.800
<v Speaker 2>killed himself by cutting his throat. Now, within that case,

0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.160
<v Speaker 2>there was other indicators that he did it to himself.

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.720
<v Speaker 2>There are hesitation marks. You know. Somebody who is getting

0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.800
<v Speaker 2>ready to cut into themselves oftentimes has to build up

0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:25.280
<v Speaker 2>the courage, and they do that by dragging the weapon over.

0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Let's say they're going to cut the wrists. You often

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:33.399
<v Speaker 2>see several very superficial types of either linear abrasions like

0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.080
<v Speaker 2>it's not even cutting the skin, but it's just superficially

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 2>damaging the skin, or more superficial cuts before you get

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 2>the deeper cut that actually is fatal. Same thing with

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.560
<v Speaker 2>this gentleman with his neck. You could actually see some

0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>of the hesitation marks. And he had also other knife

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.800
<v Speaker 2>play that he had done to himself as he was

0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:56.120
<v Speaker 2>really mentally struggling. So they're you know, this is evaluating

0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.480
<v Speaker 2>the totality of the circumstances. But yes, somebody like as

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 2>an example with Katie, could she have cut her own

0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.760
<v Speaker 2>throat with a razor and could it have been very deep? Absolutely?

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>What argues against her doing this to herself, at least

0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 2>on the surface is the battered and bruised eyes. Now,

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>could she have been doing something to herself that caused that. Possibly,

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.640
<v Speaker 2>But that's where it's really kind of digging into what

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.520
<v Speaker 2>is going on with her, what are her injuries and

0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:32.600
<v Speaker 2>what is the totality of everything that's being assessed. Offenders

0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:37.480
<v Speaker 2>often leave the murder weapon behind, So just the fact

0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:39.960
<v Speaker 2>that the razor is, you know, sitting next to her

0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.360
<v Speaker 2>does not indicate suicide. You know, this is something that's

0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 2>very common. Could be a gun, it could be a knife.

0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.760
<v Speaker 2>We see that all the time, and it's truly homicide.

0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Right, and you know, the offender is not thinking fingerprints

0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.920
<v Speaker 1>because fingerprints were not a thing just yet in investigations. Right,

0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:02.000
<v Speaker 1>let's get to the corner because I have a question,

0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.800
<v Speaker 1>a technical question. I've never asked you this before. They

0:20:04.880 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>hold no, no, no, you'll get this. Be fine. Don't panic,

0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Paul Stump the dummy time. No, no panic. Okay. So

0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.040
<v Speaker 1>the corner's inquest is held and witnesses are brought in

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.359
<v Speaker 1>one by one and they are not allowed to listen

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.600
<v Speaker 1>to each other's testimonies. Is that right?

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, that should be standard, okay. And so whether it

0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 2>be a corner's in quest or actually at trial, you know,

0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.880
<v Speaker 2>you want the witnesses to get up there and testify

0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.800
<v Speaker 2>to what they know and not be influenced by something

0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.480
<v Speaker 2>that they've heard by other witnesses on the stand. So typically,

0:20:40.520 --> 0:20:44.359
<v Speaker 2>like even I as whether I was a criminalist or

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 2>working as a CSI, I was not allowed inside the courtroom,

0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, while other witnesses are are going on the stand,

0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:54.480
<v Speaker 2>and then I would I'd be sitting on the hall.

0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Sometimes i'd be out in the hall for a week,

0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:58.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, waiting to get on the stand, just the

0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.840
<v Speaker 2>way things played out, and then I would go in

0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and testify. I have no idea what the other witnesses

0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.520
<v Speaker 2>have said. All I can do is talk about what

0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.640
<v Speaker 2>I know. And what in the opinions that I can express.

0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.719
<v Speaker 2>So it sounds like if they are barring these witnesses

0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.240
<v Speaker 2>from coming in. Well that's good, you know, that's what

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I would expect as being the standard in order to

0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:23.399
<v Speaker 2>get independence in the testimony from each of these witnesses.

0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well good, I'm glad to hear that. From the beginning,

0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.720
<v Speaker 1>they're doing things right. They're confirming this is definitely not

0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.520
<v Speaker 1>a suicide, and they're you know, making sure nobody hears

0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the testimony at this corner's in quest. So let's keep

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.280
<v Speaker 1>going and see if they continue to do a good

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.600
<v Speaker 1>job here. Okay. First one on the stand is James Dugan.

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.600
<v Speaker 1>So this is her father, and he says that he

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.600
<v Speaker 1>last saw his daughter the night before, so this would

0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.040
<v Speaker 1>have been Wednesday of the nineteenth. She was found the

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:52.880
<v Speaker 1>next day, on the twentieth, in the field. It's I mean,

0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.000
<v Speaker 1>no surprise. Her body was rigid, and you know, it

0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:58.840
<v Speaker 1>probably was a cool night. It was in October in Delaware.

0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.919
<v Speaker 1>So James as that as he was leaving he saw

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.480
<v Speaker 1>a man lingering near the house, so not inside the

0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:08.240
<v Speaker 1>house or in front of the house. Near the house,

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 1>he didn't recognize this guy.

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 2>This was a.

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.479
<v Speaker 1>Stranger to him, and he didn't think very much of it.

0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:18.720
<v Speaker 1>So about eight oh five, according to her sister, Katie

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.560
<v Speaker 1>went outside and then she vanished. That was it, and

0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.399
<v Speaker 1>then they found her the next day. Katie had told

0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.399
<v Speaker 1>her sister Lizzie that she'd be back in just a

0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.600
<v Speaker 1>couple of minutes, but she didn't really say to Lizzie

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:34.320
<v Speaker 1>at least where she went. She didn't come back, and

0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.160
<v Speaker 1>her family assume that she decided to stay at an

0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:40.720
<v Speaker 1>aunt's house nearby. Again, this is where we go back

0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.320
<v Speaker 1>to telephones and text messaging, and there's no landlines here

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.320
<v Speaker 1>even where you have to make assumptions, and there's such

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.960
<v Speaker 1>a delay because they didn't have instant communication back then.

0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Sure, what I'm hearing Katie is telling her sister, I'm

0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.520
<v Speaker 2>going outside. I'll be back in a few minutes. The

0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:02.359
<v Speaker 2>fact that she's notifying her sister sounds like this was

0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.440
<v Speaker 2>not a normal thing that she would be doing. So

0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.800
<v Speaker 2>she's just saying, Hey, I've got to go do this.

0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what's you know, if there's some type

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.679
<v Speaker 2>of task that she would need to go outside to

0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:17.080
<v Speaker 2>do some sort of chore, But is there like a

0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 2>pre arranged meeting. That is what I'm starting to think about,

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>especially with Dad seeing some strange man lingering around outside. Again,

0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 2>is you know how busy is this neighborhood? You know,

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>are these like you know, today's California neighborhoods with a

0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:35.440
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of houses that are around, or are these

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>very isolated houses where somebody shouldn't be near the house

0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:42.639
<v Speaker 2>if they didn't have business at the house.

0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I get the impression that this is kind

0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.239
<v Speaker 1>of just a suburban street neighbors. You know, there are

0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.960
<v Speaker 1>other houses around, not isolated. But that's a good point.

0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.359
<v Speaker 1>It does sound like she's just gonna hop outside. I

0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 1>don't know if it's to have a conversation with this

0:23:56.119 --> 0:24:01.119
<v Speaker 1>stranger for a few minutes. But the mystery deep So

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:06.400
<v Speaker 1>her mother, whose name Catherine Dugan, says that Katie had

0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 1>received a letter in the mail in the post a

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.960
<v Speaker 1>few hours before her death. She reads it, she stuffs

0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:18.240
<v Speaker 1>it into her pocket, and she seems very cheerful. So Lizzie,

0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Katie's sister, said that she kind of looked over her

0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 1>shoulder and she saw the name Jack written on the letter. Okay,

0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:26.560
<v Speaker 1>of course we don't have a I don't have a

0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:30.040
<v Speaker 1>copy of the letter, but the police do find the

0:24:30.160 --> 0:24:33.920
<v Speaker 1>letter in her pocket and it says meet me on

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.159
<v Speaker 1>Wednesday night at the same place at the same time.

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:39.719
<v Speaker 1>So there you go, some kind of a rendezvous in

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.800
<v Speaker 1>some way, and she seems happy, and she's four months pregnant.

0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:48.199
<v Speaker 2>I guess where you know where I'm going? And hearing

0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 2>about this is of course, Jack becomes very interesting in

0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:57.199
<v Speaker 2>terms of her homicide. You know, Katie's cheerful, sounds like

0:24:57.280 --> 0:25:00.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody that you know, this Jack is somebody that she

0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>actually likes, and it's not scared of. So Jack is

0:25:06.040 --> 0:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody that needs to be investigated. And then the other

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:14.679
<v Speaker 2>possibility is is who did Jack tell that he was

0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:18.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be meeting Katie? You know? Is that information

0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 2>has it been broadcast to where now somebody who wants

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:25.640
<v Speaker 2>to take advantage of Katie being isolated and now knows

0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.600
<v Speaker 2>that Katie's going to be traveling to a certain location

0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.840
<v Speaker 2>alone can intercept Katie before catching up to Jack. And

0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming Jack is well and he's not dead somewhere

0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:40.560
<v Speaker 2>else in a different part of the Wilmington, Delaware area.

0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Yes, you can trust me on that.

0:25:43.080 --> 0:25:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know you have not established trust over

0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the course of our episodes.

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:54.000
<v Speaker 1>You think I'm an unreliable source of well, it wouldn't

0:25:54.000 --> 0:25:58.040
<v Speaker 1>be fun if I were always reliable polholes. Okay, So

0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:02.359
<v Speaker 1>here's here's the thing that is interesting to me. This

0:26:02.440 --> 0:26:04.919
<v Speaker 1>is a very familiar story, and I know that I

0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:07.760
<v Speaker 1>interviewed for you for my book listeners all abow. But

0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:11.680
<v Speaker 1>this mirrors what happened to the main character in my book,

0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Cornell. She's pregnant, and in Sarah's case, she had

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:19.639
<v Speaker 1>been making demands of the father of the baby. She

0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:23.040
<v Speaker 1>left the house. She was really cheerful. There is a

0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 1>letter that says meet me at this location. It is unsigned.

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:30.000
<v Speaker 1>She goes, and the next day she is found dead

0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:33.000
<v Speaker 1>hanging from a haystack pole. That's right, So I don't

0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:36.000
<v Speaker 1>know if that's the case here. Sarah was cheerful when

0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.600
<v Speaker 1>she left the house. This takes place in Fall River, Massachusetts,

0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:44.680
<v Speaker 1>in eighteen thirty two. She was cheerful because it sounded

0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 1>like from a letter that one of the women at

0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:52.000
<v Speaker 1>the house had read that the father was saying, I'll

0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:53.840
<v Speaker 1>take care of it. Don't worry about it, I'll take

0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:56.320
<v Speaker 1>care of everything. Bring the letter with you that all

0:26:56.359 --> 0:26:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the letters that I've written with you and will burn

0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:00.600
<v Speaker 1>them and I will take care of t He'll support.

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.440
<v Speaker 1>So I don't know if it's cheerful because Katie likes

0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:08.879
<v Speaker 1>this man, or if some kind of you know, agreement

0:27:09.040 --> 0:27:12.040
<v Speaker 1>was made and this is just somebody who you know,

0:27:12.119 --> 0:27:15.000
<v Speaker 1>she ended up having an affair with, or I don't

0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:17.679
<v Speaker 1>know yet, but it felt very familiar when I was

0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 1>reading this.

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:23.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, taking the circumstances in Sarah's case into consideration,

0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:27.760
<v Speaker 2>so reading into Katie's cheerfulness of receiving this letter from Jack.

0:27:28.400 --> 0:27:32.439
<v Speaker 2>Either as I mentioned before, she likes Jack, you know,

0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's like he's willing to meet with her after hours.

0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:39.480
<v Speaker 2>She's excited about it. You know, this is a romance

0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and she's concerned about whether or not it's going to continue,

0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:45.879
<v Speaker 2>and it seems to be reaffirmed when she receives this letter.

0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:50.440
<v Speaker 2>Or maybe it's like in Sarah's case, to where now,

0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:55.719
<v Speaker 2>whatever problems we're going on in Katie's life, this letter

0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>is something that is going to alleviate some of those problems,

0:27:59.160 --> 0:28:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and that's could be the reason for her to be cheerful.

0:28:02.320 --> 0:28:06.200
<v Speaker 2>So you know, right now, maybe initially I read too

0:28:06.280 --> 0:28:10.320
<v Speaker 2>much into the possibility. Okay, Jack is somebody that he's

0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:11.760
<v Speaker 2>the father of the baby, and she wants to have

0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.760
<v Speaker 2>a romantic relationship. That could be the case, or maybe

0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:17.960
<v Speaker 2>there's something else going on that would cause Katie to be,

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:21.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, in this cheerful mood after receiving the letter.

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:25.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's continue, because now we have more witnesses who

0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.280
<v Speaker 1>may or may not be reliable. We'll see. There is

0:28:28.520 --> 0:28:32.600
<v Speaker 1>somebody named James Riley who they describe as a boy,

0:28:33.320 --> 0:28:36.680
<v Speaker 1>which I have to think is you know, fourteen or under.

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.240
<v Speaker 1>He said he saw Katie with a man that night.

0:28:40.920 --> 0:28:44.080
<v Speaker 1>The man had one arm around Katie and the other

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:48.160
<v Speaker 1>one in his coat pocket. I would not hope on

0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 1>the razor. I mean, that just seems odd. But who knows,

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:56.520
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. So that's one witness. Another witness, actually

0:28:56.520 --> 0:29:00.760
<v Speaker 1>two more witnesses, so a guy named Edward mcwa and

0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:04.520
<v Speaker 1>Thomas Connell say that they saw Katie with a man

0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:07.840
<v Speaker 1>that night. Also, they don't know who this person is.

0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:10.560
<v Speaker 1>This was not someone they were familiar with, but based

0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 1>on their description, they say that he is clean shaven

0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:16.960
<v Speaker 1>and he has a light complexion. There is a man

0:29:17.080 --> 0:29:20.719
<v Speaker 1>in Katie's life who fits that description, and I'll tell

0:29:20.720 --> 0:29:24.000
<v Speaker 1>you about him in a second. But you know, according

0:29:24.080 --> 0:29:28.920
<v Speaker 1>to the boy, James Riley, he said that he overheard

0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:32.600
<v Speaker 1>Katie shout after they walked off in the distance, she

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:36.920
<v Speaker 1>said oh my several times, and when he got home

0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.080
<v Speaker 1>he told his mother and sister about the encounter. And

0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:41.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't think they did anything about it, so I

0:29:41.640 --> 0:29:44.920
<v Speaker 1>don't have information of how distressful it was. But it

0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't sound like a joyful oh my. And they were

0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:48.800
<v Speaker 1>in the distance.

0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's tough to read in in terms

0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 2>of what would cause Katie to yell out oh my.

0:29:56.000 --> 0:30:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Is she receiving information from this man that artles her

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:04.640
<v Speaker 2>that she's not expecting, or is all of a sudden

0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:07.400
<v Speaker 2>she's recognizing that this man is a threat to her.

0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:10.160
<v Speaker 2>He's pulled the raiser out. You know, it's not just

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:14.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, sort of the stereotypical woman's scream in the night.

0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:17.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, she may be going oh my, as she's

0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:21.000
<v Speaker 2>being confronted with this person that she sounds like she

0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:25.760
<v Speaker 2>potentially trusted is now turning on her, or maybe somebody

0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:28.960
<v Speaker 2>else comes into the picture. As you know, Katie and

0:30:29.000 --> 0:30:31.560
<v Speaker 2>this man are walking along, you know who knows at

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:35.520
<v Speaker 2>this point, going back, you know, with what Edward and

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Thomas are saying, clean shaven man, light complected.

0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 1>It's probably half a New England.

0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.880
<v Speaker 2>True. So no, when Edward and Thomas are saying that

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:46.720
<v Speaker 2>they're seeing Katie with this man, he's clean shaven, light complected,

0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.680
<v Speaker 2>and you said that there's one person in her life

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:52.760
<v Speaker 2>that matched that description. You know, maybe I'm kind of

0:30:52.760 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 2>reading you a little bit. But now I go back

0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.040
<v Speaker 2>to her work as a domestic worker, and you know,

0:30:58.120 --> 0:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>I go, well, who is she working for?

0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:05.239
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and I like that very suspicious look. Okay, let

0:31:05.280 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 1>me tell you about this guy. So investigators obviously looking

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:11.160
<v Speaker 1>at her social circle, they looked at the family. So

0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:14.920
<v Speaker 1>this match is the description. This light complexion you know

0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 1>in clean shaven, which as I said, is probably half

0:31:17.120 --> 0:31:20.760
<v Speaker 1>of New England, matches the description of a young man

0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 1>named Richard Riley. He was known to be friendly with Katie.

0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:28.720
<v Speaker 1>It does not sound like they were dating, but they

0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.240
<v Speaker 1>flirted a lot, Okay, and I don't know if this

0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:34.920
<v Speaker 1>is the beginning of courting her. He says, I am

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 1>clueless about this pregnancy. I think he was shocked, and

0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:42.160
<v Speaker 1>investigators said he looked shocked. So he said, I hadn't

0:31:42.240 --> 0:31:47.200
<v Speaker 1>seen her since two days before she was murdered. So

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.800
<v Speaker 1>if we assume maybe she was murdered Wednesday night, he

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:54.640
<v Speaker 1>said he saw her on Tuesday, that they had seen

0:31:54.680 --> 0:31:57.239
<v Speaker 1>each other and they made plans for that Sunday and

0:31:57.280 --> 0:32:00.000
<v Speaker 1>that was it. He said that he had not heard

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.680
<v Speaker 1>about the murder until several hours after the body was discovered,

0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:07.000
<v Speaker 1>and he was at the ironically at the barber shop,

0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:09.479
<v Speaker 1>and he found out about this. You know, I can

0:32:09.520 --> 0:32:13.440
<v Speaker 1>tell you about Richard's alibi, but the investigators were alarmed

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:15.680
<v Speaker 1>enough about him that they had him testify for more

0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:20.239
<v Speaker 1>than an hour at the coroner's jury. So, I mean,

0:32:20.280 --> 0:32:21.840
<v Speaker 1>I know that's not a lot of information, But what

0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:23.760
<v Speaker 1>do you think about what he said? He said, I

0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:26.880
<v Speaker 1>saw her the day before. You know, we were friends.

0:32:27.240 --> 0:32:29.440
<v Speaker 1>They were not known to be dating or sleeping together.

0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh there's you know right now, it's wide open, you know,

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:34.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he may be telling the truth. He could

0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:38.280
<v Speaker 2>be absolutely lying. You know, this is pretty typical. If

0:32:38.280 --> 0:32:40.440
<v Speaker 2>he's the one that's responsible for Kadie's death, of course

0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:43.880
<v Speaker 2>he's going to try to put distance from him and

0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Katie from the last time they were seen together and

0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:49.880
<v Speaker 2>for him to be able to make that statement, he

0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:52.640
<v Speaker 2>must have some confidence. If he's the actual killer, he

0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:55.680
<v Speaker 2>must have some confidence that he was able to meet

0:32:55.760 --> 0:32:58.720
<v Speaker 2>up with Katie. And there were no witnesses. But I

0:32:58.760 --> 0:33:00.520
<v Speaker 2>need to know more, you know, like how old is

0:33:00.600 --> 0:33:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Richard Riley? You know, what is the know? How did

0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:07.600
<v Speaker 2>they know each other? That's kind of a kind of

0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:08.920
<v Speaker 2>a curiosity, if you will.

0:33:09.400 --> 0:33:12.800
<v Speaker 1>They just say young man Paul, if he were probably

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:14.880
<v Speaker 1>in his twenties, I think they would have mentioned it.

0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.600
<v Speaker 1>So it must have been someone who maybe was a

0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:22.800
<v Speaker 1>few years older than Katie. But regardless, I think her father.

0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:25.240
<v Speaker 1>I got the impression that her father knew him or

0:33:25.320 --> 0:33:28.280
<v Speaker 1>had seen him. So if we're going off of this

0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 1>theory that other witnesses say there's a man walking with her,

0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:35.040
<v Speaker 1>he's got his arm around her, I think that James

0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 1>would have thought that the man who is sort of

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.880
<v Speaker 1>loitering in their area, I think he would have known

0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:42.080
<v Speaker 1>that this is Richard Riley. I'm not one hundred percent

0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:42.560
<v Speaker 1>sure though.

0:33:42.720 --> 0:33:44.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so I'm going to assume that Richard Riley is

0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:49.880
<v Speaker 2>somewhat within Katie's datable age range. Yes, yeah, that would

0:33:49.920 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 2>be acceptable by society at the time. You know, of

0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:55.800
<v Speaker 2>course him being at a barber shop. You know, there's

0:33:55.920 --> 0:33:58.959
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a concern about that, considering it

0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:02.160
<v Speaker 2>sounds like she was killed with a straight raizor that

0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>would likely be found at a barbershop, you know. Digging

0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:08.279
<v Speaker 2>into Richard Riley, you know, I'd want to know, you know,

0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 2>if he had impregnated Katie, you know, how does that

0:34:11.880 --> 0:34:16.560
<v Speaker 2>impact him negatively? And would this be something as an example,

0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.160
<v Speaker 2>maybe he has a search of social status. Does that

0:34:19.200 --> 0:34:22.960
<v Speaker 2>social status get corrupted, if you will, by having this

0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:27.319
<v Speaker 2>seventeen year old teenage girl being pregnant by him? Would

0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.440
<v Speaker 2>his parents have concerned? Does his dad have a concern

0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:34.440
<v Speaker 2>about this? And could dad be you know, interceding in

0:34:34.480 --> 0:34:37.400
<v Speaker 2>his son's life and protecting you know, his son's future

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:41.080
<v Speaker 2>by taking out Katie. You know, there's there's different things

0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:43.800
<v Speaker 2>that I'd be looking at in terms of Richard Riley,

0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:48.000
<v Speaker 2>But right now he's just somebody in Katie's social circle

0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and he's denying, and so we'll see where the clues go.

0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:55.560
<v Speaker 1>I think one thing that investigators found intriguing was apparently

0:34:55.960 --> 0:34:58.400
<v Speaker 1>what Richard wore to an event that I'm going to

0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 1>tell you about in a second. Was quickly laundered after

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Katie's murder, like that same day, most likely, he says,

0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:10.000
<v Speaker 1>calm down, I dropped coconut cake on this. It's not

0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:11.279
<v Speaker 1>the hardest evidence in the world.

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:15.839
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I thought you were flirting with me somehow. You're

0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:17.640
<v Speaker 2>calling me coconut cake? What is going on?

0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:21.040
<v Speaker 1>He ate coconut cake, Paul. Let's see, I don't know

0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.040
<v Speaker 1>if you've had a coconut cake. There's delicious.

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I do not like coconut you don't. No, no, I

0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.040
<v Speaker 2>had a bad episode with coconut cake when I was young,

0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:32.960
<v Speaker 2>to the point where I threw it up, and I

0:35:33.040 --> 0:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>won't eat coconut cake ever again.

0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:38.759
<v Speaker 1>No, are you serious. You can't let childhood trauma come

0:35:38.840 --> 0:35:43.040
<v Speaker 1>back like that, Paul. You have to try again. I think, Well, anyway,

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:45.400
<v Speaker 1>the police think this is the stupidest thing ever. But

0:35:45.480 --> 0:35:47.040
<v Speaker 1>he said, what can I tell you? I was messy

0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:48.919
<v Speaker 1>that night and I wanted to get that stuff off

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:51.640
<v Speaker 1>of me, so let me get to the alibi. Though,

0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:55.720
<v Speaker 1>investigators kind of finally take their eyes off of Richard

0:35:55.760 --> 0:36:00.280
<v Speaker 1>Riley because he had been very busy that night. Remember,

0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:03.160
<v Speaker 1>Katie left with this mystery man. According to witnesses, a

0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:07.440
<v Speaker 1>little after eight o'clock, and Richard was at some kind

0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:11.080
<v Speaker 1>of like a fun fair at the Sacred Heart Church,

0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:14.640
<v Speaker 1>which is a local church, until about ten forty five

0:36:14.840 --> 0:36:17.040
<v Speaker 1>people saw him there. He was, you know, having a

0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:20.719
<v Speaker 1>great time. He was very social, and he's got witnesses

0:36:20.760 --> 0:36:23.759
<v Speaker 1>who say that. Then after he left the fair, he

0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:26.920
<v Speaker 1>was home by about eleven o'clock. So and I didn't know.

0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:30.040
<v Speaker 1>This is his family that is saying he's home. But

0:36:30.480 --> 0:36:33.160
<v Speaker 1>the witnesses who said they saw a man with Katie

0:36:33.160 --> 0:36:36.480
<v Speaker 1>that night with his arm around her, say when they

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:38.960
<v Speaker 1>see Richard, they say, this is not the same guy

0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.960
<v Speaker 1>at all. So the pale faced, clean shaven man is

0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:44.080
<v Speaker 1>still a mystery for us.

0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:46.959
<v Speaker 2>Sure, And I guess one of the things I don't

0:36:47.040 --> 0:36:51.080
<v Speaker 2>know is how far away is Katie's body from her house?

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:54.280
<v Speaker 2>How long would it roughly take to get to that location.

0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:58.920
<v Speaker 1>It's walkable. The boy sees Katie and it's not far

0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:01.360
<v Speaker 1>from her house at all. Well, she's with this man,

0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:03.640
<v Speaker 1>and then he says they walk off in a distance,

0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:05.399
<v Speaker 1>but it's close enough to him where he can hear

0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:08.600
<v Speaker 1>the oh my screams. So I don't think this is

0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:09.760
<v Speaker 1>very far from her house.

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.000
<v Speaker 2>Got it a few blocks maybe at most yeah, I think.

0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:16.720
<v Speaker 1>So okay, all of this being said witnesses on the stand,

0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:21.600
<v Speaker 1>her parents, her sister, this young man Richard Riley. The

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:25.520
<v Speaker 1>coroner's jury says, we don't have a conclusion and we

0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:28.839
<v Speaker 1>can't hold him, and they weren't convinced anyway that Richard

0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Riley was the one who did it. And there, thank goodness,

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:33.680
<v Speaker 1>even in eighteen ninety two, they said this is not

0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:38.319
<v Speaker 1>enough evidence. The case goes cold. It is brought back

0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:43.799
<v Speaker 1>to life about two years later, and Catherine, who is

0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:47.840
<v Speaker 1>Katie's mother, is the one who instigates this sort of

0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:51.680
<v Speaker 1>new investigation. We don't know why Catherine decided this was

0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:53.560
<v Speaker 1>the time to go to the police. So this would

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:55.880
<v Speaker 1>have been eighteen ninety four, two years later, but she

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:59.520
<v Speaker 1>goes to the police and she said that the family

0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:04.919
<v Speaker 1>feels like they know maybe who did this, and it's

0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:09.680
<v Speaker 1>because she had remembered Katie talking about a man named

0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:14.200
<v Speaker 1>Jack whose name was not really Jack. So this man's

0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:19.680
<v Speaker 1>name was Albert Stout. He's forty. This is disgusting to

0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:22.759
<v Speaker 1>me if this is true. She's seventeen, and he was

0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:26.200
<v Speaker 1>a well known businessman. Katie called him Jack, but his

0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:29.960
<v Speaker 1>name was Albert Stout. He was a freight agent for

0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:34.360
<v Speaker 1>a company called the Charles Warner Company. We don't know

0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:37.400
<v Speaker 1>why Catherine decided to go ahead and go to the

0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 1>police now, but the police are actually this has been

0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.480
<v Speaker 1>an open investigation because this has been very alarming, of

0:38:43.520 --> 0:38:45.880
<v Speaker 1>course to the people of Delaware, that the seventeen year

0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 1>old girl was murdered so viciously, So they have already

0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 1>started zeroing in on Albert as a suspect.

0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Can you guess why now? First, I think I'm a

0:38:57.560 --> 0:39:00.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit perplexed that it took more two years to

0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 2>come forward with this information. Yeah, that's that kind of

0:39:05.280 --> 0:39:07.640
<v Speaker 2>henks me up a little bit, because it seems like

0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:11.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty quick a mom would go, oh, yeah, there was

0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:14.600
<v Speaker 2>a guy named Jack and Katie's life, you know, once

0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:18.560
<v Speaker 2>she found out about the letter. So that's one thing.

0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:23.319
<v Speaker 2>And then it sounds like Jack fits sort of the

0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:28.280
<v Speaker 2>profile of somebody who would be hiring a younger kid

0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:33.200
<v Speaker 2>in order to do work for him. So I'm assuming

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:38.879
<v Speaker 2>that Albert Stout, this Jack was the employer of Kate

0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:40.200
<v Speaker 2>as a domestic worker.

0:39:40.760 --> 0:39:44.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes, okay, so he has a wife and three kids.

0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:49.239
<v Speaker 1>He hired her. She lived there until just a couple

0:39:49.239 --> 0:39:52.880
<v Speaker 1>of months before she died, but she never told her

0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:57.120
<v Speaker 1>parents why she left. And if I were to guess,

0:39:57.280 --> 0:40:00.680
<v Speaker 1>if we think that Catherine is, you know, being on

0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:02.320
<v Speaker 1>the up and up here, and she came by a

0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.160
<v Speaker 1>couple of years later to the police, I would think

0:40:05.200 --> 0:40:08.400
<v Speaker 1>that maybe she was in this time period in denial

0:40:09.000 --> 0:40:13.720
<v Speaker 1>that an upstanding citizen who is forty years old would

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:17.040
<v Speaker 1>have done anything like this. That's just a guess that

0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:20.520
<v Speaker 1>her employer would have done this. I think that maybe

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:22.279
<v Speaker 1>she and the family could have thought that this was

0:40:22.480 --> 0:40:26.160
<v Speaker 1>a random act and maybe it never occurred to her.

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:29.440
<v Speaker 1>And I'll make a correction. I don't know if Katie

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:33.080
<v Speaker 1>actually said that Albert Stout was Jack to her family,

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.640
<v Speaker 1>but two people in her life other than her family,

0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:40.319
<v Speaker 1>she said that she called him Jack. I'm assuming. I

0:40:40.320 --> 0:40:44.080
<v Speaker 1>mean he was married, and she I assumed knew that

0:40:44.160 --> 0:40:46.680
<v Speaker 1>this would be a bad thing to get out, especially

0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:48.560
<v Speaker 1>if he's a well known businessman, so she gave him

0:40:48.600 --> 0:40:50.640
<v Speaker 1>a moniker. So I can tell you more about that,

0:40:50.800 --> 0:40:52.719
<v Speaker 1>or you can kind of give me your impression. So far,

0:40:52.840 --> 0:40:55.960
<v Speaker 1>this is obviously a power dynamic that's terrible. A seventeen

0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 1>year old and a forty year old married man with

0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:01.480
<v Speaker 1>three kids in the same house, you know, and she's pregnant.

0:41:02.040 --> 0:41:06.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but this is I hate to use the word common,

0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:10.279
<v Speaker 2>I know it is, you know, so I think you know,

0:41:10.360 --> 0:41:15.200
<v Speaker 2>obviously this Albert Stout, you know, he's you know, businessman,

0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:19.120
<v Speaker 2>He's probably got a reputation within the community, married with

0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:23.160
<v Speaker 2>three kids. If he gets Katie pregnant, he has jeopardy

0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:26.239
<v Speaker 2>on him, right, This is he is going to be

0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:30.840
<v Speaker 2>perceived very badly. This could impact possibly the success he

0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:35.560
<v Speaker 2>could have as a businessman, how he's viewed, If he's assuming,

0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:40.319
<v Speaker 2>he's probably involved with some sort of religious group that

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:43.920
<v Speaker 2>may look poorly upon him for doing this. Yeah, of

0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:47.080
<v Speaker 2>course his wife is going to have a problem, you know.

0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:52.920
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, at least there's with with Albert.

0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:57.400
<v Speaker 2>He has the negative impact on his future as a

0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:02.120
<v Speaker 2>result of getting Katie pregnant. So there's motive. And I

0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:04.640
<v Speaker 2>have always said we don't need to prove motive, but

0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:07.480
<v Speaker 2>when there is possible motive, you have to pay attention

0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:09.480
<v Speaker 2>to that from an investigative slant.

0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, if you compare Albert and his life

0:42:13.880 --> 0:42:17.920
<v Speaker 1>to Richard Riley, who's a young man, Albert has so

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:20.560
<v Speaker 1>much more to lose. Yeah, let me tell you a

0:42:20.640 --> 0:42:25.239
<v Speaker 1>little bit about what happens here. So the assumption is that,

0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:28.279
<v Speaker 1>according to Katie's family, what they think happened, and what

0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:31.520
<v Speaker 1>investigators are trying to piece together is that they had

0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:35.960
<v Speaker 1>some kind of a relationship. It sounded consensual to me.

0:42:36.120 --> 0:42:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Seventeen year old girl and forty year old man is

0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:43.600
<v Speaker 1>not consensual, but there didn't seem to be acrimony between

0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:46.960
<v Speaker 1>the two of them from the outside. She gets pregnant,

0:42:47.040 --> 0:42:49.319
<v Speaker 1>and the word is that she got booted out of

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:52.520
<v Speaker 1>the house. I'm assuming Albert just didn't want, you know,

0:42:52.560 --> 0:42:54.719
<v Speaker 1>to have to explain anything to his wife. I don't

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:57.040
<v Speaker 1>know if this has happened before with him or not.

0:42:57.280 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 1>I bet yes. She never told her parents why she left,

0:43:01.120 --> 0:43:04.879
<v Speaker 1>which is understandable now that we know these circumstances. Investigators

0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:08.080
<v Speaker 1>say that they kept in touch and they might have

0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:11.600
<v Speaker 1>continued this relationship after she was booted from the house.

0:43:12.080 --> 0:43:16.200
<v Speaker 1>And they find four witnesses who say that they saw

0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:19.879
<v Speaker 1>Katie with Albert on the night of the murder. And

0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:23.239
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why they can definitively say this is

0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:26.279
<v Speaker 1>Albert Stout and I don't know where they were two

0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:28.759
<v Speaker 1>years ago. I mean, this was widely publicized and they

0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:31.839
<v Speaker 1>didn't come forward. So I look at this a little

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:34.120
<v Speaker 1>bit with a John decigah, because from my book from

0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.360
<v Speaker 1>the Centers all Bow, you know, the defense and the

0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:40.759
<v Speaker 1>prosecutor out there with just operatives trying to find witnesses,

0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:42.319
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know if I trust any of them,

0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:46.360
<v Speaker 1>regardless they say, these witnesses said that they remember seeing

0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:50.239
<v Speaker 1>Katie that night where she's with this man, crying and

0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:54.680
<v Speaker 1>arguing with Albert, and they said that they looked like

0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Albert and Katie were heading directly to that field where

0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:00.680
<v Speaker 1>her body was discovered hours later. And then I have

0:44:00.719 --> 0:44:03.799
<v Speaker 1>some more forensic evidence eighteen ninety two styles such as

0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:04.120
<v Speaker 1>it is.

0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:07.759
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so these four witnesses are they being interviewed during

0:44:07.800 --> 0:44:10.040
<v Speaker 2>the original investigation or two years later?

0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Two years later? That's what I mean. I don't know

0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.359
<v Speaker 1>why where were you in eighteen ninety two?

0:44:14.640 --> 0:44:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay? So yeah, you know, you brought up the

0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:20.879
<v Speaker 2>concerns about the veracity of the accuracy of these types

0:44:20.920 --> 0:44:24.560
<v Speaker 2>of witnesses that come forward. You know after two years,

0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:27.680
<v Speaker 2>are they being influenced in one way or another? You know,

0:44:27.840 --> 0:44:30.320
<v Speaker 2>it does give me a little bit of pause about

0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:33.560
<v Speaker 2>how much, you know, how reliable these statements are from

0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:37.359
<v Speaker 2>these four witnesses. It would be evaluating, you know, these

0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:39.799
<v Speaker 2>four witnesses know each other. Is there some sort of

0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:43.359
<v Speaker 2>common connection between these four witnesses, you know, could they

0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:46.840
<v Speaker 2>have a you know, collaborated on a story or have

0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:49.640
<v Speaker 2>been told by an individual this is what you saw

0:44:49.760 --> 0:44:53.440
<v Speaker 2>that night. You know. However, in terms of sort of

0:44:53.480 --> 0:44:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the dynamics of this case, Albert Stout kind of fits

0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:04.239
<v Speaker 2>the profile of who Katie's killer is. So you know,

0:45:04.280 --> 0:45:08.160
<v Speaker 2>there's to me, there's churn with Albert just because of

0:45:08.160 --> 0:45:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the jeopardy he would have having impregnated Katie, sort of

0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:16.279
<v Speaker 2>like you brought up Sarah's case earlier. Katie would be

0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:20.799
<v Speaker 2>cheerful to hear from Albert's slash jack. Right. Yeah, and

0:45:21.239 --> 0:45:24.160
<v Speaker 2>either because she still has some sort of you know,

0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:30.080
<v Speaker 2>romance ideations, romantic ideations, or maybe there's she's thinking, okay,

0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:33.799
<v Speaker 2>well I'm on my own, but he's going to financially

0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:36.319
<v Speaker 2>support me as I have this baby or whatever else,

0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:40.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, whatever the reason she's cheerful for. But he

0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:43.399
<v Speaker 2>is kind of checking the boxes much more so than

0:45:43.840 --> 0:45:45.120
<v Speaker 2>the young Richard Riley.

0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there are a couple of things. Again, the parallels

0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:51.560
<v Speaker 1>between this and my book are kind of incredible. There

0:45:51.600 --> 0:45:55.719
<v Speaker 1>are there is a handwriting expert who analyzes the note

0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:57.920
<v Speaker 1>found in Katie's pocket, the one that has meet me

0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:00.360
<v Speaker 1>on Wednesday night at the same place in same time time,

0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:05.600
<v Speaker 1>compares it with Albert Stouts writing and says that this

0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:08.799
<v Speaker 1>is a total match. I had to hire my own

0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.800
<v Speaker 1>handwriting expert now to look and it was so interesting

0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:16.640
<v Speaker 1>to see the comparison between the suspect in my case

0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and the letters. And this was an interesting point. So

0:46:20.719 --> 0:46:25.040
<v Speaker 1>in my case, Sarah Cornell decided to copy one of

0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:28.080
<v Speaker 1>the anonymous letters and send it to her sister word

0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:31.240
<v Speaker 1>for word, and I sent it to this handwriting expert,

0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:34.720
<v Speaker 1>and then I gave her the letter, the actual letter

0:46:34.800 --> 0:46:37.239
<v Speaker 1>that was the anonymous letter, because Sarah kept that one,

0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:39.279
<v Speaker 1>even though he told her to burn it. She was

0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:41.400
<v Speaker 1>very smart. So she said, I don't know if I've

0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:43.520
<v Speaker 1>ever had a case where I could look at the

0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.759
<v Speaker 1>victim and look at the anonymous letter and it's the

0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:49.920
<v Speaker 1>exact same wording. She copied it over and to be

0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:52.760
<v Speaker 1>able to compare how she would have written it versus

0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:56.440
<v Speaker 1>how it was actually written. And of course it excluded Sarah.

0:46:56.760 --> 0:46:59.600
<v Speaker 1>So you know, I don't know about eighteen ninety two.

0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 1>I have a lot more confidence in my twenty twenty

0:47:02.200 --> 0:47:05.399
<v Speaker 1>four handwriting expert. But you know, I mean it's kind

0:47:05.400 --> 0:47:07.759
<v Speaker 1>of the same practice. What do you think about.

0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 2>That, you know, handwriting comparisons. You know, when there's sufficient

0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:16.960
<v Speaker 2>exemplars present in order to say this is the known

0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:21.760
<v Speaker 2>spectrum of handwriting characteristics from this one individual. And now

0:47:21.960 --> 0:47:25.000
<v Speaker 2>you have that you know, broad set of exemplars and

0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:27.399
<v Speaker 2>are comparing it to let's say a letter from Jack,

0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:31.000
<v Speaker 2>then yes, you can start to see maybe some differences

0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:33.719
<v Speaker 2>that you don't see in the exemplars. And there's a

0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:36.080
<v Speaker 2>lot more that they can be taking a look at.

0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:39.640
<v Speaker 2>And of course today forensically in terms of comparing the

0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.080
<v Speaker 2>inks the paper, in dented writing, there's all sorts of

0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:45.839
<v Speaker 2>things that document examiners can go after. So there is

0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:49.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a comparative science, and we know that there's issues

0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:52.399
<v Speaker 2>with comparative sciences, but most certainly you know, when there

0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:56.840
<v Speaker 2>are significant differences, then yes they can form an opinion

0:47:57.160 --> 0:48:00.719
<v Speaker 2>this document contains handwriting that is different than the known

0:48:00.760 --> 0:48:04.360
<v Speaker 2>handwriting from the individual. Now I don't think that you

0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:06.759
<v Speaker 2>can say that person did not write this. You know,

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:10.360
<v Speaker 2>I think that that's probably too strong of an opinion

0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.040
<v Speaker 2>for this type of science, even though I do think

0:48:13.040 --> 0:48:16.560
<v Speaker 2>that these experts do reach that type of conclusion. But

0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:20.399
<v Speaker 2>it most certainly has some validity, you know, with this

0:48:20.480 --> 0:48:24.640
<v Speaker 2>handwriting expert in eighteen ninety two. You know, I'm sure

0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:27.360
<v Speaker 2>they're not. He's not writing it with a ballpoint pen.

0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:32.160
<v Speaker 2>It's probably like a fountain pen, right, or pencil or sure? Okay,

0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:33.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, so I don't you know, if it's like

0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:36.520
<v Speaker 2>the fountain pen. I'm not entirely sure. Because they were

0:48:36.680 --> 0:48:40.840
<v Speaker 2>so artistic with their writing back in the day. You

0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:43.880
<v Speaker 2>know that there may be some to try to copy

0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:49.200
<v Speaker 2>somebody's cursive writing using a fountain pen to look exactly

0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:53.080
<v Speaker 2>like somebody else's handwriting, I bet would be extremely difficult.

0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Having just looked at you, I mean, it's like calligraphy, right,

0:48:55.960 --> 0:48:58.960
<v Speaker 2>It's just like wow, you know, there's an art to

0:48:59.040 --> 0:49:01.320
<v Speaker 2>it that's unique to the person that's writing.

0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:03.920
<v Speaker 1>And one of the reasons why I hired the expert

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:07.480
<v Speaker 1>for my book is that the defense said Sarah Cornell

0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:12.600
<v Speaker 1>was an expert at mimicking someone else's handwriting, So I

0:49:12.680 --> 0:49:15.480
<v Speaker 1>wanted to disprove that because it couldn't be proven word

0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:18.680
<v Speaker 1>disproven in eighteen thirty two. Sure, So the theory that

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:22.000
<v Speaker 1>prosecutors came up with is that Albert tried to pressure

0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:25.720
<v Speaker 1>Katie to terminate the pregnancy, she said no, and then

0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.839
<v Speaker 1>he killed her, you know, obviously to cover up his infidelity,

0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:31.600
<v Speaker 1>which is a very similar thing that might have happened

0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:35.239
<v Speaker 1>with Sarah Cornell's case. So with Sarah's case, there were

0:49:35.360 --> 0:49:38.800
<v Speaker 1>bruises that that matron's who undressed her for her funeral,

0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:41.640
<v Speaker 1>all over her body like she had been in a fight.

0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:44.520
<v Speaker 1>That's not the case here. So it sounds like it

0:49:44.520 --> 0:49:46.480
<v Speaker 1>could have been a if this is true, a verbal

0:49:46.600 --> 0:49:49.400
<v Speaker 1>argument maybe and when then she offered a hard know

0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:52.640
<v Speaker 1>on that, then that's when he reacted with the razor.

0:49:53.200 --> 0:49:55.600
<v Speaker 2>That it's possible, you know, but however, you know, she

0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:58.399
<v Speaker 2>does have the battered and bruised eyes. If you think

0:49:58.480 --> 0:50:02.560
<v Speaker 2>about cutting somebody's you're let's say, overpowering this person, forcing

0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:04.600
<v Speaker 2>them down on the ground, is it possible, as hand

0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:08.440
<v Speaker 2>is around her neck, is there potentially some level of

0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:13.160
<v Speaker 2>strangulation that's occurring. You could potentially start to see, you know,

0:50:13.239 --> 0:50:16.480
<v Speaker 2>some these smaller blood vessels you know, starting to burst

0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:18.799
<v Speaker 2>as a result of that act. And I'm sure this

0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:23.000
<v Speaker 2>pathologist wasn't very sophisticated, so could there be some bruising

0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:27.840
<v Speaker 2>from that or did this verbal argument escalate into a

0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:31.800
<v Speaker 2>physical altercation where she's actually receiving blows to the face

0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:35.360
<v Speaker 2>before her throat is cut. And that's where it's really

0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:39.799
<v Speaker 2>doing a much deeper dive in terms of what these

0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:42.719
<v Speaker 2>injuries to her eyes and the surrounding area are.

0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:47.040
<v Speaker 1>They found a pack of envelopes in Albert's house that

0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:49.960
<v Speaker 1>seemed to match the kind of envelope that Katie received

0:50:50.000 --> 0:50:52.560
<v Speaker 1>for this rendezvous. I mean, you know, I guess they

0:50:52.560 --> 0:50:55.880
<v Speaker 1>could do fiber analysis now, but it's a common envelope,

0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm assuming, so I'm not sure that's going to be

0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:03.920
<v Speaker 1>something that's relying. We do have an alibi, and I

0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:06.960
<v Speaker 1>can't wait for you to comment on this. Albi again,

0:51:07.160 --> 0:51:11.960
<v Speaker 1>very similar to the suspects alibi in my case with

0:51:12.000 --> 0:51:15.879
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Cornell. So here's the alibi. This is two years ago,

0:51:16.040 --> 0:51:19.400
<v Speaker 1>two years later. This is what he says. He says,

0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:22.439
<v Speaker 1>on the night of the murder, he left his house

0:51:22.480 --> 0:51:25.200
<v Speaker 1>at seven, he went to the office. He got there

0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:28.840
<v Speaker 1>at seven twenty five. He does no real good answer

0:51:28.880 --> 0:51:31.400
<v Speaker 1>about why he got there late and why he was

0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:35.120
<v Speaker 1>working late. He boarded a horse car and hopped out

0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:37.879
<v Speaker 1>a little while later at a very specific house, where

0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:40.160
<v Speaker 1>he placed a bill under the door on behalf of

0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:44.520
<v Speaker 1>his employer. He claims that he rang the doorbell. Nobody answered,

0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:48.000
<v Speaker 1>so we don't know. There's no witnesses to say anything here.

0:51:48.440 --> 0:51:50.960
<v Speaker 1>He said he'd forgotten to pick up some laundry. He

0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.560
<v Speaker 1>walked a short distance to get it, and afterwards he

0:51:54.760 --> 0:51:57.919
<v Speaker 1>hopped on a trolley car and arrived home around eight

0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:00.680
<v Speaker 1>oh five, very specific, and then he said he was

0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:03.560
<v Speaker 1>in the house after that, So a coincidence that he

0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:06.759
<v Speaker 1>was at the house by eight oh five when she

0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:10.560
<v Speaker 1>was last seen at AO five by her sister walking

0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:14.000
<v Speaker 1>away with the man. This is incredibly detailed. So what

0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:23.360
<v Speaker 1>do you think about that? No, he's lying, well, yeah.

0:52:20.280 --> 0:52:24.440
<v Speaker 2>You know two years later, yeah, two years later. You know, basically,

0:52:24.640 --> 0:52:30.360
<v Speaker 2>he's just Any good interviewer is just going to hammer

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:34.240
<v Speaker 2>him on this. Let's say he's innocent and he finds

0:52:34.320 --> 0:52:38.640
<v Speaker 2>out that this teenage girl that he had had sex

0:52:38.680 --> 0:52:43.000
<v Speaker 2>with and impregnated had been murdered. You know, most certainly

0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.640
<v Speaker 2>that would be any event that would kind of stick

0:52:46.680 --> 0:52:51.120
<v Speaker 2>in his memory banks after two years, but the night

0:52:51.280 --> 0:52:54.440
<v Speaker 2>before or you know, the night of her before her

0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:58.240
<v Speaker 2>body's found for him to remember down to the minute

0:52:58.320 --> 0:53:01.759
<v Speaker 2>on what he is doing, and you know, the the

0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:05.200
<v Speaker 2>number of things he was doing in this very brief

0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:07.759
<v Speaker 2>period of time in which Katie is going to go

0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:11.640
<v Speaker 2>out and meet with this Jack, which that's what she

0:53:11.800 --> 0:53:16.480
<v Speaker 2>called him. You know that it's so obvious that he

0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:22.000
<v Speaker 2>has come up with something to try to show that

0:53:22.080 --> 0:53:27.520
<v Speaker 2>he just could not have physically been with Katie at

0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:31.640
<v Speaker 2>the time she was killed. Yeah, and in essence, he's

0:53:31.680 --> 0:53:36.040
<v Speaker 2>now this is like a just a beacon flashing to

0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:40.239
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement, going, oh, he would have no reason to

0:53:40.280 --> 0:53:43.120
<v Speaker 2>lie about this. If he's innocent, There's no way he

0:53:43.160 --> 0:53:45.520
<v Speaker 2>would remember him. I mean, the proper response would be,

0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:47.960
<v Speaker 2>are you kidding me? Two years later and you want

0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:50.879
<v Speaker 2>me to kind of figure out what I did that night? Yep,

0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:51.799
<v Speaker 2>There's just no way.

0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:55.200
<v Speaker 1>And it gets worse because he had another domestic worker

0:53:55.280 --> 0:54:00.480
<v Speaker 1>working that night. She testified, and she said he got

0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:04.759
<v Speaker 1>in at nine o'clock. She knows because the clock in

0:54:04.960 --> 0:54:08.840
<v Speaker 1>the study struck nine, so she knew he came in

0:54:08.840 --> 0:54:11.759
<v Speaker 1>at nine and Katie was seen with that man at

0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:13.799
<v Speaker 1>eight oh five, which is plenty of time. And I'm

0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:16.479
<v Speaker 1>assuming investigators looked and there would be plenty of time

0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:19.959
<v Speaker 1>for all that. So here's a conclusion. There are about

0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:23.880
<v Speaker 1>a dozen witnesses that testify, and you know, this to

0:54:23.920 --> 0:54:27.160
<v Speaker 1>me seems like a compelling case. Now, what do you

0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:30.240
<v Speaker 1>think the grand jury is going to say here? Based

0:54:30.280 --> 0:54:33.560
<v Speaker 1>on your you know, account of the evidence. What do

0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:36.880
<v Speaker 1>you think is there enough legally to at least have

0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:39.520
<v Speaker 1>a trial for this guy or is there enough to

0:54:39.640 --> 0:54:40.680
<v Speaker 1>convict him.

0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Well per the expected standards of today. No, you know,

0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:49.440
<v Speaker 2>because you take a look at what you've really have

0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.280
<v Speaker 2>is you have the letter and you have it signed Jack.

0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:59.279
<v Speaker 2>Katie goes out supposedly to meet with Jack. However, you

0:54:59.360 --> 0:55:04.239
<v Speaker 2>can't necessarily. I think you have the handwriting analysis that

0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:10.120
<v Speaker 2>says this handwriting is consistent with Alberts, but two years later,

0:55:10.360 --> 0:55:13.320
<v Speaker 2>you have absolutely no physical evidence that they could go after.

0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:16.880
<v Speaker 2>They can't. First they can't, you know, prove who's the

0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:22.240
<v Speaker 2>father the child. Right today we could they can't prove

0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Albert is present at the crime scene. You know that

0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:28.360
<v Speaker 2>is there contact DNA present, things that we could potentially

0:55:28.440 --> 0:55:31.160
<v Speaker 2>look at Where is there any of his clothing that

0:55:31.360 --> 0:55:33.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe he stepped in some of this this

0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:38.279
<v Speaker 2>blood that was spilled. Is this razor got his you know,

0:55:38.360 --> 0:55:41.280
<v Speaker 2>bloody fingerprints on it, or Layton Prince or his DNA

0:55:41.400 --> 0:55:43.560
<v Speaker 2>on it. You know, they have none of that.

0:55:43.680 --> 0:55:46.120
<v Speaker 1>Is there something under her nails that maybe they'd be

0:55:46.160 --> 0:55:47.879
<v Speaker 1>able to pull a she fight back in any way

0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.520
<v Speaker 1>like that? I mean, she's been punched. I don't know

0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:52.239
<v Speaker 1>if she's just going to sit there and take that.

0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Who knows.

0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:55.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, so today, you know, there's a lot

0:55:55.600 --> 0:55:59.719
<v Speaker 2>of things that we potentially would expect to at least pursue,

0:55:59.760 --> 0:56:02.840
<v Speaker 2>and some of those things would show that, yes, Albert's

0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:06.840
<v Speaker 2>presence at the crime scene is there. What they're working

0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:12.799
<v Speaker 2>with is very indirect. It's really a weak circumstantial I

0:56:12.920 --> 0:56:16.840
<v Speaker 2>just don't think that there's enough today in order to

0:56:16.880 --> 0:56:19.680
<v Speaker 2>be able to convict or for a grand jury to indict.

0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:22.719
<v Speaker 2>But back then, I think they probably put a lot

0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:25.920
<v Speaker 2>of weight on the circumstances. And I'm not arguing that

0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:29.520
<v Speaker 2>they're wrong. I'm just going, yeah, it's a relatively speaking,

0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:34.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a weak case. It's sort of a Oh, investigatively,

0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:36.320
<v Speaker 2>this looks like the guy that I need to pursue

0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and I need to figure out, you know, can I

0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:41.680
<v Speaker 2>build a case against them or can I eliminate him

0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:43.680
<v Speaker 2>and do somebody else become a better suspect.

0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:46.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, I don't think I've ever heard you use

0:56:46.800 --> 0:56:50.880
<v Speaker 1>that phrase. Well, no, not based on the expectations of today,

0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:54.400
<v Speaker 1>which does put it in perspective. You know, this seems

0:56:54.520 --> 0:56:58.239
<v Speaker 1>like an overwhelmingly good, circumstantial case for eighteen ninety two.

0:56:58.400 --> 0:57:01.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, rarely do you get witnesses, is handwriting is

0:57:01.760 --> 0:57:05.799
<v Speaker 1>They've spent some money on this case, but ultimately the

0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:08.680
<v Speaker 1>grand jury did not want to indict somebody who could

0:57:08.719 --> 0:57:12.359
<v Speaker 1>have been innocent, and so they didn't indict him. Okay,

0:57:12.400 --> 0:57:16.360
<v Speaker 1>so this is now officially a unsolved case. No arrest

0:57:16.440 --> 0:57:19.640
<v Speaker 1>werever made, nothing ever happened. That's it.

0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I guess I am surprised because I would have thought

0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:26.000
<v Speaker 2>that back in eighteen ninety I guess this would have

0:57:26.000 --> 0:57:29.439
<v Speaker 2>been eighteen ninety four, eighteen ninety five, when the grand

0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:33.440
<v Speaker 2>jury was evaluating the case, that this would have been

0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:37.160
<v Speaker 2>something that they would have indicted on. Now, back then,

0:57:37.280 --> 0:57:41.400
<v Speaker 2>with the grand jury, all that is in essences is

0:57:41.440 --> 0:57:44.440
<v Speaker 2>that they are saying, yes, we think that the state

0:57:44.560 --> 0:57:48.320
<v Speaker 2>has sufficient evidence and now he would be going to trial.

0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Is that kind of how things were back then? Yeah?

0:57:52.160 --> 0:57:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Same, Okay, so he didn't even get to trial.

0:57:55.360 --> 0:57:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, probably today this would be a relatively easy case

0:57:59.160 --> 0:57:59.680
<v Speaker 2>to prove.

0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Probably today he wouldn't have left behind the murder weapon,

0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:07.040
<v Speaker 1>and he would have been looking out for CCTV, And

0:58:07.880 --> 0:58:10.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think it would have been a different situation.

0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:12.959
<v Speaker 1>I think one thing I had thought about with Sarah

0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:16.640
<v Speaker 1>Cornell's case is, yes, she was drawn out to this

0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:20.919
<v Speaker 1>desolate farm. Yes, she's found hanging from a haystack poll

0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:22.800
<v Speaker 1>and there's debate about whether or not she took her

0:58:22.840 --> 0:58:25.720
<v Speaker 1>own life or if she was murdered, and if this

0:58:25.800 --> 0:58:28.640
<v Speaker 1>is the man who did it. But you know my

0:58:28.760 --> 0:58:30.640
<v Speaker 1>thought was, and I think I had asked you this

0:58:30.680 --> 0:58:33.640
<v Speaker 1>for the book. Even if she is drawn out to

0:58:33.680 --> 0:58:36.440
<v Speaker 1>this farm, there's an argument, I'm not going to terminate

0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:37.600
<v Speaker 1>the pregnancy.

0:58:37.120 --> 0:58:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Go to hell.

0:58:37.920 --> 0:58:41.240
<v Speaker 1>He could have left and somebody else could have murdered her. Still,

0:58:41.360 --> 0:58:46.360
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't enough evidence actually saying he did it. He

0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:48.760
<v Speaker 1>put his hands on her and did it. It could

0:58:48.760 --> 0:58:51.120
<v Speaker 1>have been a weird circumstance. And then you've convicted. I

0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:53.080
<v Speaker 1>don't think that's the case with Albert, and I don't

0:58:53.080 --> 0:58:56.600
<v Speaker 1>think it was the case with Sarah Cornell. But then you're,

0:58:56.720 --> 0:58:59.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, trying a capital case with somebody who's potentially

0:58:59.560 --> 0:59:00.640
<v Speaker 1>innocent stagers.

0:59:01.280 --> 0:59:05.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, and there is depending on circumstances, but

0:59:05.600 --> 0:59:11.240
<v Speaker 2>that is always sort of a potential defense. Is there

0:59:11.440 --> 0:59:17.560
<v Speaker 2>was that window after the suspect or defendant left where

0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:21.360
<v Speaker 2>somebody else could have come in and committed the crime,

0:59:22.360 --> 0:59:24.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, But that that's where now it's really you're

0:59:24.400 --> 0:59:28.520
<v Speaker 2>taking a look at the totality of the circumstances, you know,

0:59:28.720 --> 0:59:33.160
<v Speaker 2>And with with Albert, you know, it really looks like

0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:36.880
<v Speaker 2>he is one responsible for getting Katie pregnant. You have

0:59:37.000 --> 0:59:41.040
<v Speaker 2>multiple witnesses. The veracity of their statements after two years

0:59:41.680 --> 0:59:43.920
<v Speaker 2>is a little suspect, But you have multiple witnesses that

0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:46.560
<v Speaker 2>are saying Katie was with Albert that night of the homicide.

0:59:47.360 --> 0:59:51.120
<v Speaker 2>You know, he's lying about his alibi, you know what

0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:54.720
<v Speaker 2>he did that night, you know. So there's there is

0:59:55.480 --> 0:59:59.280
<v Speaker 2>churm about Albert for sure, you know. And it's it's

0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:01.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of like, yeah, I think he's the one responsible.

1:00:01.640 --> 1:00:05.520
<v Speaker 2>It's just it's not a strong case relatively speaking. You

1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:08.040
<v Speaker 2>know to what we would expect today that would be

1:00:08.080 --> 1:00:09.480
<v Speaker 2>presented to a jury.

1:00:09.960 --> 1:00:12.520
<v Speaker 1>This is why I don't like unsolved cases. I need

1:00:12.520 --> 1:00:14.520
<v Speaker 1>a conclusion one way or the other. I know, and

1:00:14.560 --> 1:00:16.720
<v Speaker 1>I know that's why you love unsolved cases. That's why

1:00:16.760 --> 1:00:20.720
<v Speaker 1>we're good partners. I can't stand it, but I yeah,

1:00:20.760 --> 1:00:22.560
<v Speaker 1>I know you find them intriguing and you want to

1:00:22.600 --> 1:00:24.960
<v Speaker 1>solve them and I just want an answer and to

1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:27.040
<v Speaker 1>be able to write about them. And it's hard.

1:00:27.640 --> 1:00:28.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, different perspectives.

1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, next week we will have a solved under

1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:37.680
<v Speaker 1>three lines, three underline, solved case. I'll be happy to

1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:40.600
<v Speaker 1>present that to you. But in the meantime, I'm going

1:00:40.680 --> 1:00:43.720
<v Speaker 1>to be thinking about Katie Dugan and her parents and

1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:47.040
<v Speaker 1>just me and I wish she had justice here seventeen

1:00:47.480 --> 1:00:51.600
<v Speaker 1>life in front of her seventeen. Yeah, it's always very upsetting.

1:00:51.840 --> 1:00:55.840
<v Speaker 1>But next week will be a very very different case,

1:00:55.880 --> 1:00:57.200
<v Speaker 1>and I can't wait to present it to you.

1:00:57.760 --> 1:00:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, as always, I'm looking forward to it.

1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, see you then?

1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:02.360
<v Speaker 2>All right? Sounds good.

1:01:06.840 --> 1:01:09.360
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right production.

1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:12.920
<v Speaker 2>For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com,

1:01:12.960 --> 1:01:15.280
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