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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. You were busy. That's what the crowd

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Speaker 1: is saying, is you're busy. I don't know who the

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Speaker 1: crowd is. That's what they say.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know, I've I have just been buried, you know,

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Speaker 2: of course recording the two podcasts, and you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: actually doing a lot of training for law enforcement, and

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Speaker 2: I have you know, the author and casework. But I'm

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Speaker 2: also doing an audible project, which is an active investigation.

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Speaker 2: And a few weeks ago, I just returned back from

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Speaker 2: the Bay Area and have some new information about the case.

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Speaker 2: And actually it's multiple cases, multiple homicides. It's one of

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Speaker 2: my old cases and it's a lot. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to get this thing wrapped up so you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll be ready for the listeners at some point when

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Speaker 2: Audible decides to release it. But you know, actual casework

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Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily line up with production schedules.

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Speaker 1: I know, I've noticed. I know that you have been

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Speaker 1: doing just a ton of stuff, which is always great.

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Speaker 1: It's an embarrassment of riches. So I'm always and especially

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Speaker 1: because you've got your foot at everything, and the active

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Speaker 1: investigations is what helps us the most. Being totally selfish, Paul,

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Speaker 1: that's what I care about, is what actually helps the

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Speaker 1: listeners in me.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I appreciate that thought. You know, of course,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing what I used to do before I retired

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Speaker 2: in similar capacity, not identical, because I'm no longer a

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Speaker 2: peace officer. I don't have access to stuff, and I

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Speaker 2: have to rely on law enforcement agencies and give them

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Speaker 2: guidance and hope that they follow through. But trying to

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Speaker 2: do that in addition to doing sort of the true

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Speaker 2: crime aspect. Yeah, you know it is. It's turned into

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Speaker 2: somewhat of a struggle just to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: allot my time. But so far, you know, I seem

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Speaker 2: to be staying afloat and hopefully things will turn out

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Speaker 2: good in the long run.

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Speaker 1: Is this more relaxing your schedule now than when you

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Speaker 1: were working working with the Sheriff's department or wherever you were?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's well, it's it's very different, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think, you know, the casework was always a passion

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Speaker 2: and it can be stressful. But when I was active,

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Speaker 2: I had other responsibilities. You know, I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: at with Sheriff's office. I was a division commander with

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Speaker 2: the DA's office. I was a chief and oversaw you know,

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Speaker 2: investigative units and other things, and you know, had a

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Speaker 2: lot of administrative duties. So trying to juggle casework and

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Speaker 2: the administrative duties and reporting to a boss is a struggle. Now,

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Speaker 2: you know, author might have a boss there, of course,

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Speaker 2: but you know, nowadays it's with what I'm doing, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of independence, and I do enjoy the independence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine that too. I mean, I'm juggling

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. I've got the book that came

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Speaker 1: out a couple of months ago. And then of course

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Speaker 1: those kids, Yeah, I've got those two. I've got those

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Speaker 1: two Carls stinking kids who had a sleepover in my cottage.

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Speaker 1: And I said, this is not what the game plan was.

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Speaker 1: The game plan was that I come out here and

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Speaker 1: I'm on my own and they loved it. They had

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Speaker 1: a great time. I think it was kind of spooky

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Speaker 1: for him. And it didn't help that I came out

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Speaker 1: at midnight and was knocking on the.

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Speaker 2: Walls wearing some ghoul mask.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that what good parents do? I thought, that's what.

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Speaker 2: Is to keep them on their toes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do that. So you know this, we're going

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Speaker 1: to transition to a case that I think feels familiar,

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Speaker 1: which is unfortunate because we do spend an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of time talking about women who are found, you know,

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Speaker 1: by themselves dead, they've been potentially attacked, and it's a mystery.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like we've just said this over and

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Speaker 1: over and over again. And the more we talk about

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Speaker 1: things like this, you know, being alone in the dark,

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Speaker 1: and you know, women feeling like they're being stalked, all

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Speaker 1: of that for me just makes it more and more

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Speaker 1: clear how how vulnerable women are, you know, and these

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Speaker 1: stories and we just keep going backwards in time and

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Speaker 1: it's the same old story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and it's just it's such a sad state,

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Speaker 2: you know. It's it's very different, like I can go out,

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Speaker 2: let's say, if I want to do a jog, I

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Speaker 2: can go out jogging at night, and the chances of

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Speaker 2: me becoming a victim are much lower than if a

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Speaker 2: woman were to go out at the same time, you know,

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Speaker 2: And that's I don't know what the answer is to that,

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Speaker 2: you know. You know, my entire career has been really

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Speaker 2: focused on going after the men that victimize women. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, how do we get this

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Speaker 2: where women can feel safe? And it sounds like you're

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Speaker 2: probably going to be telling me a story from I

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Speaker 2: don't know how long ago. You know, this is just

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Speaker 2: something that's been going on probably forever. Oh yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's just it's just sad.

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Speaker 1: You know. This is another I think difficult story. It's

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Speaker 1: set in eighteen ninety two, so we are going very

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Speaker 1: far back. Okay, So let's go ahead and set the

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Speaker 1: scene Wilmington, Delaware. I love Delaware. Love it, love it,

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Speaker 1: love it great state. I know this is like the

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Speaker 1: obligatory question I always ask, you haven't been to Delaware before?

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Speaker 1: Have you been to Wilmington before?

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Speaker 2: I have not been to Delaware nor Wilmington, or I

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Speaker 2: guess if I say, if I haven't been to Delaware,

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Speaker 2: then of course I haven't been to Wilmington. So no,

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Speaker 2: don't know it. You know that the kind of the

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Speaker 2: northeast part of the country is the area that I

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Speaker 2: really have the least amount of experience with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, luckily for us, you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: experience with crime. So so don't worry about Delaware. Delaware

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Speaker 1: does not play a big role in this. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to set the scene. You know, sometimes I build

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Speaker 1: up to who's the victim and you know who's the killer,

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Speaker 1: And in this case, we're going to just start with

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Speaker 1: what investigators find. So eighteen ninety two, it's October twentieth,

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Speaker 1: around noon, and a man stumbles onto a horrific scene

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Speaker 1: as he's crossed a field and he's using this field

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Speaker 1: as a shortcut, and it's the body of a teenage girl.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of different bits of info, so I

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Speaker 1: might have to skip around on the document a little bit,

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Speaker 1: depending on what you want to hear about. But let

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Speaker 1: me tell you what he sees first. So she is seventeen.

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Speaker 1: We know later she is lying on her back with

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Speaker 1: her head turned to one side, and she is fully

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Speaker 1: clothed except for her hat, which is about ten feet

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Speaker 1: from her body, so we would presume knocked off. And

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Speaker 1: it seems pretty obvious even to this man who finds her,

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Speaker 1: that she's been the victim of something very violent. She's

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Speaker 1: in a pool of blood, and her eyes are battered

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Speaker 1: and bruised in her throat, her throat is so deeply

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Speaker 1: severed that she's almost decapitated. And there is a razor,

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Speaker 1: which I'm assuming is a straight razor like you would

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Speaker 1: use in a barber shop, and there is a razor

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Speaker 1: on the ground beside her body. We have talked about

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Speaker 1: the amount of force, or the least amount of force

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Speaker 1: she needs to almost decapitate. Somebody, Can a woman do this?

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Speaker 1: You know it silly things like that. So can you

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Speaker 1: tell me where you want to start? This is what

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Speaker 1: we know so far.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So obviously the woman is out in a field,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I want to know a little bit

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Speaker 2: more about you know, what kind of access out to

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Speaker 2: this field, what kind of field it is? You know,

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Speaker 2: she off of a trail or did somebody you know,

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Speaker 2: push their way through, you know, some sort of crop.

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Speaker 2: You know. The razor, you know, that sounds like something

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Speaker 2: that she would not carry herself, So that sounds like

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Speaker 2: something that the offender would have brought to the scene.

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Speaker 2: And razors, of course, are when they're maintained, the straight

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Speaker 2: razors are very very sharp, and so I've previously discussed

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Speaker 2: because it's it's always brought up. You know, you have

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Speaker 2: a throat cut, it's near decapitation. This must show that

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Speaker 2: there's just extreme violence and rage by the offender on

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Speaker 2: the victim. And the reality is that homicidal throat slashings

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Speaker 2: with a sharp edged weapon through the front of the neck,

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Speaker 2: the soft tissues, the trachia, it almost always looks like

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Speaker 2: its near decapitation. That's not surprising that she has such

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Speaker 2: a deep cut to her throat if the razor was

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Speaker 2: in fact used to cut it. You mentioned that she's

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Speaker 2: laying in a pool of blood, and of course i'd

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Speaker 2: want to see the distribution of this pool of blood.

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Speaker 2: It is consistent with her throat being cut while she's

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Speaker 2: laying down, and it just she bleeds out like that.

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Speaker 2: So she was overpowered ahead of time? Or has she

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Speaker 2: been moved after she starts bleeding? Does she have other

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Speaker 2: bleeding injuries? Does she have defensive injuries? The battered and

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Speaker 2: bruised eyes, if they are in fact indicative that she

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Speaker 2: was receiving blows to the face, probably ahead of her

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Speaker 2: throat being cut, This indicates that the offender used forced

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Speaker 2: to overpower her and she may have resisted. So there's

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Speaker 2: you know, there's some information here that gives me a

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Speaker 2: sense as to what's going on, But of course the

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Speaker 2: devil's in the details.

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Speaker 1: I don't get a sense that there's blood anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: It seems like it's concentrated under her head or under

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Speaker 1: her throat. Okay, with this straight razor, sometimes I think,

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Speaker 1: is this a crime of opportunity where somebody is walking by,

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Speaker 1: he sees this young girl walking through this field and

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Speaker 1: he says, this is my opportunity. That seems unlikely, right,

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Speaker 1: because he's carrying a razor. It's not like he's carrying

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Speaker 1: a little gun as a personal protection. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: seems like something that's supposed to be threatening you.

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Speaker 2: Know, maybe you know, but I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like, you know, these straight razors would

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Speaker 2: be something that men would normally just randomly carry. I

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Speaker 2: think determining if it's a random crime or not really

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Speaker 2: relies more on the victimology. You know, what is her life,

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Speaker 2: life patterns? Why is she would she normally be passing

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Speaker 2: through this field? You know, different details like that. The

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Speaker 2: presence of the razor may indicate that the offender had

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Speaker 2: violence on his mind when he left wherever he left.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe he's a he's a barber and this is

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Speaker 2: his tool of trade and he always has one tucked away.

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Speaker 1: That would be a coincidence, I get, But you could

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Speaker 1: be right. I guess we'll find out. Yeah, well, we

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Speaker 1: do have some suspects, and we'll see what they do

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Speaker 1: for a living, and maybe your barber theory will come through. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll make things a lot easier.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: If I were a barber, I'm not sure I would

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Speaker 1: use a straight trade razor, but that would point right

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Speaker 1: to me. Okay, so let me tell you what. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to jump around a little bit. So this is

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Speaker 1: what we hear the corner says when they end up

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Speaker 1: doing an autopsy. So he says that Katie, her name

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Speaker 1: is Katie Dugan, that Katie had both of her carotid

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Speaker 1: arteries severed, and then this says as well as her

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Speaker 1: internal and external jugular and that now this is you know,

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Speaker 1: an assumption here. The depth of the slash to her

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Speaker 1: neck suggests that the perpetrator was very strong. We just

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Speaker 1: sort of talked about that, and what do you think

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Speaker 1: about that?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the fact that both carotids, the crowdits

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Speaker 2: lay underneath the jugulars. So of course, just by the

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Speaker 2: fact that both crotids are cut indicates that it's a

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Speaker 2: very deep incision, which is not surprising oftentimes with cut

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Speaker 2: throats if the cut is more geared towards one side

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Speaker 2: or the other, and this sometimes could indicate which hand

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Speaker 2: the offender is holding the weapon in at the time

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Speaker 2: he cuts the throat. But you'll see, you know, the

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Speaker 2: left jugular and the left carotid cut, while the other

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Speaker 2: ones are intact on the other side of the neck.

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Speaker 2: With both crodits being cut and both external internal jugulars

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Speaker 2: being cut, this tells me that this throat cut was

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Speaker 2: deep and cut. I wouldn't sayly straight across, but cut

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Speaker 2: through the neck on both sides of the neck. And

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Speaker 2: this is where I would not be surprised if it's

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Speaker 2: low enough down on the neck that it possibly went

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Speaker 2: through the trachia. And I've actually seen that as well,

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Speaker 2: where I'm looking down the trachia of somebody who has

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Speaker 2: had their throat cut. This is basically sudden death for Katy.

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Speaker 2: You know, in essence, you know she's as soon as

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Speaker 2: her karates are cut, her brain is no longer receiving

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Speaker 2: a blood supply, and in essence, within ten seconds she's

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Speaker 2: unconscious and there's nothing that could be done to save her.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad that this happened quickly because it sounds horrific.

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Speaker 1: So I know that this is a gruesome question, and

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Speaker 1: those are the kinds of questions I ask on this show.

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Speaker 1: Do you, as the offender need to be behind Katie

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Speaker 1: to make this kind of cut or can you be

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Speaker 1: standing in front of her? I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: asked this question before about throats being slashed.

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Speaker 2: It's either okay in terms of the relative position of

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Speaker 2: the offender to the victim at the time that the

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Speaker 2: throat is cut, you know, there can be some indicators. However,

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Speaker 2: there's so many variables that I don't think you can

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Speaker 2: make a definitive statement as to their relative positions just

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Speaker 2: based off of how the throat was cut.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now let me tell you a little bit

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Speaker 1: about Katie, because we do need to have some victimology here.

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Speaker 1: I think that we do have a corner's in quest,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's more an in quest where they

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Speaker 1: know it's murder, but they want to discuss more of

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Speaker 1: the circumstances. Because the last detail that the corner gave

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Speaker 1: us is that she was the seventeen year old girl

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Speaker 1: four months pregnant. And I'm going to say it one

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Speaker 1: more time. I say this in book talks, I say

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Speaker 1: it all the time. The National Institute of Health says

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Speaker 1: that homicide is the leading cause of death for women

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Speaker 1: who are pregnant and in the postpartum period. In America,

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Speaker 1: leading cause of death is homicide. It is when women

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Speaker 1: are most vulnerable. So four months pregnant, and I will say,

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Speaker 1: she is not married, and she lives with her parents.

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Speaker 1: Recently she moved back in with her parents, So eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two, this would have been quite scandalous. So what

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Speaker 1: do we think so far? Obviously this adds another dimension

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Speaker 1: to Katie's life.

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Speaker 2: Well, immediately, you know, my mind goes to, Okay, who

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Speaker 2: is the biological father? What is that relationship? Is there

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Speaker 2: any jeopardy that he might be under if it is

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Speaker 2: found out that he is impregnated the seventeen year old

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Speaker 2: teenage girl. Then the other side is is she in

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Speaker 2: a relationship with a man who she's got pregnant by

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Speaker 2: and there's a jealous ex lover stalker, you know, somebody

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Speaker 2: that is really upset that she's in this other relationship.

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Speaker 2: So those are going to be kind of two things

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Speaker 2: immediately on my mind. However, right now we don't know

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Speaker 2: if this is somebody that even knows her right, you know,

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Speaker 2: But this is where the victimology starts to come into play.

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Speaker 2: It's like, okay, given this time frame, eighteen ninety two,

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Speaker 2: seventeen year old girl, unmarried who is four months pregnant,

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Speaker 2: we know that this is something that society at that

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Speaker 2: point in time is not going to be kind in

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Speaker 2: thinking about. And this could cause jeopardy on whoever, you know,

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Speaker 2: is who's responsible, especially you know, let's say it's you know,

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Speaker 2: as an example, you know, a religious figure from the

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Speaker 2: church she attends, you know, and so he may resort

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Speaker 2: to violence in order to protect himself. And that right

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Speaker 2: now is just sort of a you know, speculative type

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Speaker 2: of scenario, but we know that based off of other

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Speaker 2: cases that we've done, that that is a real scenario

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Speaker 2: during this time, even today, you know, that would be

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Speaker 2: something that would have to be considered. You know, the

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Speaker 2: victimology ends up sometimes pointing within the victim's own social circles,

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Speaker 2: and you evaluate who's within her social circles that would

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Speaker 2: benefit from her death.

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Speaker 1: Well, her parents say they had no idea that she

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Speaker 1: was pregnant, which, if they're telling the truth, I believe

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Speaker 1: she was four months pregnant. She could have at four

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Speaker 1: months covered that up. Sure, So I'll tell you more

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Speaker 1: about Katie. She had been a domestic worker, live in

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Speaker 1: domestic worker. She moved back in with her parents. We

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Speaker 1: don't know why just yet, but word of the murder

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Speaker 1: and her pregnancy comes as a shock to the whole community.

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Speaker 1: So here's an interesting thing. So the investigators initially, when

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Speaker 1: they look at the scene, they think that whoever killed

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Speaker 1: her put this razor right next to her. To make

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Speaker 1: it look like she took her own life. Then of

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Speaker 1: course they immediate, thankfully, they immediately dismissed that. And I

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Speaker 1: know that we've talked about people have taken their own

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Speaker 1: lives with razors before, which I just find horrific. But

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Speaker 1: they immediately say, just based on the cuts, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like something she could do to herself. But

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Speaker 1: you have had, without being too graphic, you've had instances

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Speaker 1: where people really have been able to get it do

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Speaker 1: a really deep cut on themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yes. No, I have a case where an adult male

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Speaker 2: killed himself by cutting his throat. Now, within that case,

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Speaker 2: there was other indicators that he did it to himself.

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Speaker 2: There are hesitation marks. You know. Somebody who is getting

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Speaker 2: ready to cut into themselves oftentimes has to build up

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Speaker 2: the courage, and they do that by dragging the weapon over.

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Speaker 2: Let's say they're going to cut the wrists. You often

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Speaker 2: see several very superficial types of either linear abrasions like

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Speaker 2: it's not even cutting the skin, but it's just superficially

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Speaker 2: damaging the skin, or more superficial cuts before you get

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Speaker 2: the deeper cut that actually is fatal. Same thing with

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Speaker 2: this gentleman with his neck. You could actually see some

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Speaker 2: of the hesitation marks. And he had also other knife

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Speaker 2: play that he had done to himself as he was

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Speaker 2: really mentally struggling. So they're you know, this is evaluating

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Speaker 2: the totality of the circumstances. But yes, somebody like as

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Speaker 2: an example with Katie, could she have cut her own

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Speaker 2: throat with a razor and could it have been very deep? Absolutely?

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Speaker 2: What argues against her doing this to herself, at least

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Speaker 2: on the surface is the battered and bruised eyes. Now,

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Speaker 2: could she have been doing something to herself that caused that. Possibly,

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Speaker 2: But that's where it's really kind of digging into what

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Speaker 2: is going on with her, what are her injuries and

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Speaker 2: what is the totality of everything that's being assessed. Offenders

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Speaker 2: often leave the murder weapon behind, So just the fact

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Speaker 2: that the razor is, you know, sitting next to her

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Speaker 2: does not indicate suicide. You know, this is something that's

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Speaker 2: very common. Could be a gun, it could be a knife.

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Speaker 2: We see that all the time, and it's truly homicide.

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Speaker 1: Right, and you know, the offender is not thinking fingerprints

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Speaker 1: because fingerprints were not a thing just yet in investigations. Right,

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Speaker 1: let's get to the corner because I have a question,

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Speaker 1: a technical question. I've never asked you this before. They

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Speaker 1: hold no, no, no, you'll get this. Be fine. Don't panic,

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Speaker 1: Paul Stump the dummy time. No, no panic. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: the corner's inquest is held and witnesses are brought in

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Speaker 1: one by one and they are not allowed to listen

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Speaker 1: to each other's testimonies. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Well, that should be standard, okay. And so whether it

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Speaker 2: be a corner's in quest or actually at trial, you know,

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Speaker 2: you want the witnesses to get up there and testify

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Speaker 2: to what they know and not be influenced by something

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Speaker 2: that they've heard by other witnesses on the stand. So typically,

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Speaker 2: like even I as whether I was a criminalist or

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Speaker 2: working as a CSI, I was not allowed inside the courtroom,

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Speaker 2: you know, while other witnesses are are going on the stand,

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Speaker 2: and then I would I'd be sitting on the hall.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes i'd be out in the hall for a week,

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Speaker 2: you know, waiting to get on the stand, just the

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Speaker 2: way things played out, and then I would go in

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Speaker 2: and testify. I have no idea what the other witnesses

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Speaker 2: have said. All I can do is talk about what

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Speaker 2: I know. And what in the opinions that I can express.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like if they are barring these witnesses

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Speaker 2: from coming in. Well that's good, you know, that's what

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Speaker 2: I would expect as being the standard in order to

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Speaker 2: get independence in the testimony from each of these witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well good, I'm glad to hear that. From the beginning,

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Speaker 1: they're doing things right. They're confirming this is definitely not

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Speaker 1: a suicide, and they're you know, making sure nobody hears

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Speaker 1: the testimony at this corner's in quest. So let's keep

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Speaker 1: going and see if they continue to do a good

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Speaker 1: job here. Okay. First one on the stand is James Dugan.

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Speaker 1: So this is her father, and he says that he

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Speaker 1: last saw his daughter the night before, so this would

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Speaker 1: have been Wednesday of the nineteenth. She was found the

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Speaker 1: next day, on the twentieth, in the field. It's I mean,

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Speaker 1: no surprise. Her body was rigid, and you know, it

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Speaker 1: probably was a cool night. It was in October in Delaware.

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Speaker 1: So James as that as he was leaving he saw

395
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Speaker 1: a man lingering near the house, so not inside the

396
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Speaker 1: house or in front of the house. Near the house,

397
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Speaker 1: he didn't recognize this guy.

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Speaker 2: This was a.

399
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Speaker 1: Stranger to him, and he didn't think very much of it.

400
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Speaker 1: So about eight oh five, according to her sister, Katie

401
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Speaker 1: went outside and then she vanished. That was it, and

402
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Speaker 1: then they found her the next day. Katie had told

403
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Speaker 1: her sister Lizzie that she'd be back in just a

404
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Speaker 1: couple of minutes, but she didn't really say to Lizzie

405
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Speaker 1: at least where she went. She didn't come back, and

406
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Speaker 1: her family assume that she decided to stay at an

407
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Speaker 1: aunt's house nearby. Again, this is where we go back

408
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Speaker 1: to telephones and text messaging, and there's no landlines here

409
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Speaker 1: even where you have to make assumptions, and there's such

410
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Speaker 1: a delay because they didn't have instant communication back then.

411
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Speaker 2: Sure, what I'm hearing Katie is telling her sister, I'm

412
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Speaker 2: going outside. I'll be back in a few minutes. The

413
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Speaker 2: fact that she's notifying her sister sounds like this was

414
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Speaker 2: not a normal thing that she would be doing. So

415
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Speaker 2: she's just saying, Hey, I've got to go do this.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's you know, if there's some type

417
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Speaker 2: of task that she would need to go outside to

418
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Speaker 2: do some sort of chore, But is there like a

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Speaker 2: pre arranged meeting. That is what I'm starting to think about,

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Speaker 2: especially with Dad seeing some strange man lingering around outside. Again,

421
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Speaker 2: is you know how busy is this neighborhood? You know,

422
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Speaker 2: are these like you know, today's California neighborhoods with a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of houses that are around, or are these

424
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Speaker 2: very isolated houses where somebody shouldn't be near the house

425
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Speaker 2: if they didn't have business at the house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I get the impression that this is kind

427
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Speaker 1: of just a suburban street neighbors. You know, there are

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Speaker 1: other houses around, not isolated. But that's a good point.

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Speaker 1: It does sound like she's just gonna hop outside. I

430
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: don't know if it's to have a conversation with this

431
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: stranger for a few minutes. But the mystery deep So

432
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: her mother, whose name Catherine Dugan, says that Katie had

433
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: received a letter in the mail in the post a

434
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: few hours before her death. She reads it, she stuffs

435
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: it into her pocket, and she seems very cheerful. So Lizzie,

436
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: Katie's sister, said that she kind of looked over her

437
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: shoulder and she saw the name Jack written on the letter. Okay,

438
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: of course we don't have a I don't have a

439
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: copy of the letter, but the police do find the

440
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: letter in her pocket and it says meet me on

441
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: Wednesday night at the same place at the same time.

442
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 1: So there you go, some kind of a rendezvous in

443
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: some way, and she seems happy, and she's four months pregnant.

444
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 2: I guess where you know where I'm going? And hearing

445
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: about this is of course, Jack becomes very interesting in

446
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 2: terms of her homicide. You know, Katie's cheerful, sounds like

447
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: somebody that you know, this Jack is somebody that she

448
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: actually likes, and it's not scared of. So Jack is

449
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: somebody that needs to be investigated. And then the other

450
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 2: possibility is is who did Jack tell that he was

451
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: going to be meeting Katie? You know? Is that information

452
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: has it been broadcast to where now somebody who wants

453
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 2: to take advantage of Katie being isolated and now knows

454
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: that Katie's going to be traveling to a certain location

455
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: alone can intercept Katie before catching up to Jack. And

456
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 2: I'm assuming Jack is well and he's not dead somewhere

457
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: else in a different part of the Wilmington, Delaware area.

458
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 1: Yes, you can trust me on that.

459
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know you have not established trust over

460
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: the course of our episodes.

461
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: You think I'm an unreliable source of well, it wouldn't

462
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: be fun if I were always reliable polholes. Okay, So

463
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: here's here's the thing that is interesting to me. This

464
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 1: is a very familiar story, and I know that I

465
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: interviewed for you for my book listeners all abow. But

466
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: this mirrors what happened to the main character in my book,

467
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: Sarah Cornell. She's pregnant, and in Sarah's case, she had

468
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: been making demands of the father of the baby. She

469
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: left the house. She was really cheerful. There is a

470
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: letter that says meet me at this location. It is unsigned.

471
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: She goes, and the next day she is found dead

472
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: hanging from a haystack pole. That's right, So I don't

473
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: know if that's the case here. Sarah was cheerful when

474
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: she left the house. This takes place in Fall River, Massachusetts,

475
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty two. She was cheerful because it sounded

476
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: like from a letter that one of the women at

477
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: the house had read that the father was saying, I'll

478
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: take care of it. Don't worry about it, I'll take

479
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: care of everything. Bring the letter with you that all

480
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: the letters that I've written with you and will burn

481
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: them and I will take care of t He'll support.

482
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's cheerful because Katie likes

483
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: this man, or if some kind of you know, agreement

484
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: was made and this is just somebody who you know,

485
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: she ended up having an affair with, or I don't

486
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: know yet, but it felt very familiar when I was

487
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: reading this.

488
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 2: You know, taking the circumstances in Sarah's case into consideration,

489
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: so reading into Katie's cheerfulness of receiving this letter from Jack.

490
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: Either as I mentioned before, she likes Jack, you know,

491
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: and it's like he's willing to meet with her after hours.

492
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: She's excited about it. You know, this is a romance

493
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 2: and she's concerned about whether or not it's going to continue,

494
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: and it seems to be reaffirmed when she receives this letter.

495
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's like in Sarah's case, to where now,

496
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: whatever problems we're going on in Katie's life, this letter

497
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: is something that is going to alleviate some of those problems,

498
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: and that's could be the reason for her to be cheerful.

499
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: So you know, right now, maybe initially I read too

500
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: much into the possibility. Okay, Jack is somebody that he's

501
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: the father of the baby, and she wants to have

502
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: a romantic relationship. That could be the case, or maybe

503
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: there's something else going on that would cause Katie to be,

504
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: you know, in this cheerful mood after receiving the letter.

505
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: Well, let's continue, because now we have more witnesses who

506
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: may or may not be reliable. We'll see. There is

507
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: somebody named James Riley who they describe as a boy,

508
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: which I have to think is you know, fourteen or under.

509
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: He said he saw Katie with a man that night.

510
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: The man had one arm around Katie and the other

511
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: one in his coat pocket. I would not hope on

512
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: the razor. I mean, that just seems odd. But who knows,

513
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. So that's one witness. Another witness, actually

514
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: two more witnesses, so a guy named Edward mcwa and

515
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: Thomas Connell say that they saw Katie with a man

516
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: that night. Also, they don't know who this person is.

517
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: This was not someone they were familiar with, but based

518
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: on their description, they say that he is clean shaven

519
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: and he has a light complexion. There is a man

520
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 1: in Katie's life who fits that description, and I'll tell

521
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: you about him in a second. But you know, according

522
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: to the boy, James Riley, he said that he overheard

523
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: Katie shout after they walked off in the distance, she

524
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: said oh my several times, and when he got home

525
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: he told his mother and sister about the encounter. And

526
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: I don't think they did anything about it, so I

527
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: don't have information of how distressful it was. But it

528
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: didn't sound like a joyful oh my. And they were

529
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: in the distance.

530
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's tough to read in in terms

531
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: of what would cause Katie to yell out oh my.

532
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: Is she receiving information from this man that artles her

533
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: that she's not expecting, or is all of a sudden

534
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: she's recognizing that this man is a threat to her.

535
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: He's pulled the raiser out. You know, it's not just

536
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: you know, sort of the stereotypical woman's scream in the night.

537
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: You know, she may be going oh my, as she's

538
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: being confronted with this person that she sounds like she

539
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: potentially trusted is now turning on her, or maybe somebody

540
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: else comes into the picture. As you know, Katie and

541
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: this man are walking along, you know who knows at

542
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 2: this point, going back, you know, with what Edward and

543
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: Thomas are saying, clean shaven man, light complected.

544
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: It's probably half a New England.

545
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: True. So no, when Edward and Thomas are saying that

546
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: they're seeing Katie with this man, he's clean shaven, light complected,

547
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: and you said that there's one person in her life

548
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: that matched that description. You know, maybe I'm kind of

549
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: reading you a little bit. But now I go back

550
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: to her work as a domestic worker, and you know,

551
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 2: I go, well, who is she working for?

552
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,239
Speaker 1: Yes, and I like that very suspicious look. Okay, let

553
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: me tell you about this guy. So investigators obviously looking

554
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: at her social circle, they looked at the family. So

555
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: this match is the description. This light complexion you know

556
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: in clean shaven, which as I said, is probably half

557
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: of New England, matches the description of a young man

558
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: named Richard Riley. He was known to be friendly with Katie.

559
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: It does not sound like they were dating, but they

560
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: flirted a lot, Okay, and I don't know if this

561
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: is the beginning of courting her. He says, I am

562
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: clueless about this pregnancy. I think he was shocked, and

563
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: investigators said he looked shocked. So he said, I hadn't

564
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: seen her since two days before she was murdered. So

565
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: if we assume maybe she was murdered Wednesday night, he

566
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: said he saw her on Tuesday, that they had seen

567
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 1: each other and they made plans for that Sunday and

568
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: that was it. He said that he had not heard

569
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: about the murder until several hours after the body was discovered,

570
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: and he was at the ironically at the barber shop,

571
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,479
Speaker 1: and he found out about this. You know, I can

572
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: tell you about Richard's alibi, but the investigators were alarmed

573
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: enough about him that they had him testify for more

574
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 1: than an hour at the coroner's jury. So, I mean,

575
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: I know that's not a lot of information, But what

576
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: do you think about what he said? He said, I

577
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: saw her the day before. You know, we were friends.

578
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: They were not known to be dating or sleeping together.

579
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: Oh there's you know right now, it's wide open, you know,

580
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: I mean, he may be telling the truth. He could

581
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 2: be absolutely lying. You know, this is pretty typical. If

582
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: he's the one that's responsible for Kadie's death, of course

583
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: he's going to try to put distance from him and

584
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: Katie from the last time they were seen together and

585
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: for him to be able to make that statement, he

586
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: must have some confidence. If he's the actual killer, he

587
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: must have some confidence that he was able to meet

588
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: up with Katie. And there were no witnesses. But I

589
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: need to know more, you know, like how old is

590
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: Richard Riley? You know, what is the know? How did

591
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: they know each other? That's kind of a kind of

592
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: a curiosity, if you will.

593
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: They just say young man Paul, if he were probably

594
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: in his twenties, I think they would have mentioned it.

595
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: So it must have been someone who maybe was a

596
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: few years older than Katie. But regardless, I think her father.

597
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: I got the impression that her father knew him or

598
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: had seen him. So if we're going off of this

599
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: theory that other witnesses say there's a man walking with her,

600
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: he's got his arm around her, I think that James

601
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: would have thought that the man who is sort of

602
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: loitering in their area, I think he would have known

603
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: that this is Richard Riley. I'm not one hundred percent

604
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: sure though.

605
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm going to assume that Richard Riley is

606
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: somewhat within Katie's datable age range. Yes, yeah, that would

607
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: be acceptable by society at the time. You know, of

608
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: course him being at a barber shop. You know, there's

609
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 2: a little bit of a concern about that, considering it

610
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: sounds like she was killed with a straight raizor that

611
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: would likely be found at a barbershop, you know. Digging

612
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 2: into Richard Riley, you know, I'd want to know, you know,

613
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: if he had impregnated Katie, you know, how does that

614
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: impact him negatively? And would this be something as an example,

615
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 2: maybe he has a search of social status. Does that

616
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: social status get corrupted, if you will, by having this

617
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 2: seventeen year old teenage girl being pregnant by him? Would

618
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: his parents have concerned? Does his dad have a concern

619
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: about this? And could dad be you know, interceding in

620
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 2: his son's life and protecting you know, his son's future

621
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: by taking out Katie. You know, there's there's different things

622
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 2: that I'd be looking at in terms of Richard Riley,

623
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: But right now he's just somebody in Katie's social circle

624
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: and he's denying, and so we'll see where the clues go.

625
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: I think one thing that investigators found intriguing was apparently

626
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 1: what Richard wore to an event that I'm going to

627
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: tell you about in a second. Was quickly laundered after

628
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: Katie's murder, like that same day, most likely, he says,

629
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: calm down, I dropped coconut cake on this. It's not

630
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: the hardest evidence in the world.

631
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,839
Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you were flirting with me somehow. You're

632
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 2: calling me coconut cake? What is going on?

633
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: He ate coconut cake, Paul. Let's see, I don't know

634
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: if you've had a coconut cake. There's delicious.

635
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: I do not like coconut you don't. No, no, I

636
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: had a bad episode with coconut cake when I was young,

637
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: to the point where I threw it up, and I

638
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: won't eat coconut cake ever again.

639
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: No, are you serious. You can't let childhood trauma come

640
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: back like that, Paul. You have to try again. I think, Well, anyway,

641
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: the police think this is the stupidest thing ever. But

642
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: he said, what can I tell you? I was messy

643
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 1: that night and I wanted to get that stuff off

644
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: of me, so let me get to the alibi. Though,

645
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: investigators kind of finally take their eyes off of Richard

646
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,280
Speaker 1: Riley because he had been very busy that night. Remember,

647
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: Katie left with this mystery man. According to witnesses, a

648
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: little after eight o'clock, and Richard was at some kind

649
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: of like a fun fair at the Sacred Heart Church,

650
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: which is a local church, until about ten forty five

651
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: people saw him there. He was, you know, having a

652
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: great time. He was very social, and he's got witnesses

653
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: who say that. Then after he left the fair, he

654
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: was home by about eleven o'clock. So and I didn't know.

655
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: This is his family that is saying he's home. But

656
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: the witnesses who said they saw a man with Katie

657
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: that night with his arm around her, say when they

658
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: see Richard, they say, this is not the same guy

659
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: at all. So the pale faced, clean shaven man is

660
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: still a mystery for us.

661
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 2: Sure, And I guess one of the things I don't

662
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: know is how far away is Katie's body from her house?

663
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 2: How long would it roughly take to get to that location.

664
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: It's walkable. The boy sees Katie and it's not far

665
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: from her house at all. Well, she's with this man,

666
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: and then he says they walk off in a distance,

667
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: but it's close enough to him where he can hear

668
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: the oh my screams. So I don't think this is

669
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: very far from her house.

670
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: Got it a few blocks maybe at most yeah, I think.

671
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: So okay, all of this being said witnesses on the stand,

672
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: her parents, her sister, this young man Richard Riley. The

673
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: coroner's jury says, we don't have a conclusion and we

674
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: can't hold him, and they weren't convinced anyway that Richard

675
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: Riley was the one who did it. And there, thank goodness,

676
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: even in eighteen ninety two, they said this is not

677
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: enough evidence. The case goes cold. It is brought back

678
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: to life about two years later, and Catherine, who is

679
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: Katie's mother, is the one who instigates this sort of

680
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: new investigation. We don't know why Catherine decided this was

681
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: the time to go to the police. So this would

682
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: have been eighteen ninety four, two years later, but she

683
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: goes to the police and she said that the family

684
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 1: feels like they know maybe who did this, and it's

685
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: because she had remembered Katie talking about a man named

686
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: Jack whose name was not really Jack. So this man's

687
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: name was Albert Stout. He's forty. This is disgusting to

688
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: me if this is true. She's seventeen, and he was

689
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: a well known businessman. Katie called him Jack, but his

690
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: name was Albert Stout. He was a freight agent for

691
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: a company called the Charles Warner Company. We don't know

692
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: why Catherine decided to go ahead and go to the

693
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: police now, but the police are actually this has been

694
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: an open investigation because this has been very alarming, of

695
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: course to the people of Delaware, that the seventeen year

696
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: old girl was murdered so viciously, So they have already

697
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: started zeroing in on Albert as a suspect.

698
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: Can you guess why now? First, I think I'm a

699
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: little bit perplexed that it took more two years to

700
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: come forward with this information. Yeah, that's that kind of

701
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: henks me up a little bit, because it seems like

702
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: pretty quick a mom would go, oh, yeah, there was

703
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: a guy named Jack and Katie's life, you know, once

704
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 2: she found out about the letter. So that's one thing.

705
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: And then it sounds like Jack fits sort of the

706
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 2: profile of somebody who would be hiring a younger kid

707
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: in order to do work for him. So I'm assuming

708
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 2: that Albert Stout, this Jack was the employer of Kate

709
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: as a domestic worker.

710
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so he has a wife and three kids.

711
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: He hired her. She lived there until just a couple

712
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: of months before she died, but she never told her

713
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: parents why she left. And if I were to guess,

714
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: if we think that Catherine is, you know, being on

715
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: the up and up here, and she came by a

716
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: couple of years later to the police, I would think

717
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: that maybe she was in this time period in denial

718
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: that an upstanding citizen who is forty years old would

719
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: have done anything like this. That's just a guess that

720
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: her employer would have done this. I think that maybe

721
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: she and the family could have thought that this was

722
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: a random act and maybe it never occurred to her.

723
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: And I'll make a correction. I don't know if Katie

724
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: actually said that Albert Stout was Jack to her family,

725
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: but two people in her life other than her family,

726
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: she said that she called him Jack. I'm assuming. I

727
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: mean he was married, and she I assumed knew that

728
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: this would be a bad thing to get out, especially

729
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: if he's a well known businessman, so she gave him

730
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: a moniker. So I can tell you more about that,

731
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: or you can kind of give me your impression. So far,

732
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: this is obviously a power dynamic that's terrible. A seventeen

733
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: year old and a forty year old married man with

734
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: three kids in the same house, you know, and she's pregnant.

735
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is I hate to use the word common,

736
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: I know it is, you know, so I think you know,

737
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: obviously this Albert Stout, you know, he's you know, businessman,

738
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 2: He's probably got a reputation within the community, married with

739
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 2: three kids. If he gets Katie pregnant, he has jeopardy

740
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: on him, right, This is he is going to be

741
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 2: perceived very badly. This could impact possibly the success he

742
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: could have as a businessman, how he's viewed, If he's assuming,

743
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 2: he's probably involved with some sort of religious group that

744
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: may look poorly upon him for doing this. Yeah, of

745
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: course his wife is going to have a problem, you know.

746
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: And so you know, at least there's with with Albert.

747
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 2: He has the negative impact on his future as a

748
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: result of getting Katie pregnant. So there's motive. And I

749
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: have always said we don't need to prove motive, but

750
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: when there is possible motive, you have to pay attention

751
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: to that from an investigative slant.

752
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you compare Albert and his life

753
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: to Richard Riley, who's a young man, Albert has so

754
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: much more to lose. Yeah, let me tell you a

755
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: little bit about what happens here. So the assumption is that,

756
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: according to Katie's family, what they think happened, and what

757
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: investigators are trying to piece together is that they had

758
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: some kind of a relationship. It sounded consensual to me.

759
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: Seventeen year old girl and forty year old man is

760
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: not consensual, but there didn't seem to be acrimony between

761
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: the two of them from the outside. She gets pregnant,

762
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: and the word is that she got booted out of

763
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: the house. I'm assuming Albert just didn't want, you know,

764
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: to have to explain anything to his wife. I don't

765
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: know if this has happened before with him or not.

766
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: I bet yes. She never told her parents why she left,

767
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 1: which is understandable now that we know these circumstances. Investigators

768
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: say that they kept in touch and they might have

769
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: continued this relationship after she was booted from the house.

770
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: And they find four witnesses who say that they saw

771
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,879
Speaker 1: Katie with Albert on the night of the murder. And

772
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: I don't know why they can definitively say this is

773
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: Albert Stout and I don't know where they were two

774
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: years ago. I mean, this was widely publicized and they

775
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: didn't come forward. So I look at this a little

776
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: bit with a John decigah, because from my book from

777
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 1: the Centers all Bow, you know, the defense and the

778
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: prosecutor out there with just operatives trying to find witnesses,

779
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I trust any of them,

780
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: regardless they say, these witnesses said that they remember seeing

781
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: Katie that night where she's with this man, crying and

782
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: arguing with Albert, and they said that they looked like

783
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: Albert and Katie were heading directly to that field where

784
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: her body was discovered hours later. And then I have

785
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: some more forensic evidence eighteen ninety two styles such as

786
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: it is.

787
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: Okay, so these four witnesses are they being interviewed during

788
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: the original investigation or two years later?

789
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: Two years later? That's what I mean. I don't know

790
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 1: why where were you in eighteen ninety two?

791
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay? So yeah, you know, you brought up the

792
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: concerns about the veracity of the accuracy of these types

793
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 2: of witnesses that come forward. You know after two years,

794
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 2: are they being influenced in one way or another? You know,

795
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 2: it does give me a little bit of pause about

796
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: how much, you know, how reliable these statements are from

797
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:37,359
Speaker 2: these four witnesses. It would be evaluating, you know, these

798
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: four witnesses know each other. Is there some sort of

799
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 2: common connection between these four witnesses, you know, could they

800
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: have a you know, collaborated on a story or have

801
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: been told by an individual this is what you saw

802
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: that night. You know. However, in terms of sort of

803
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: the dynamics of this case, Albert Stout kind of fits

804
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 2: the profile of who Katie's killer is. So you know,

805
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 2: there's to me, there's churn with Albert just because of

806
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: the jeopardy he would have having impregnated Katie, sort of

807
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: like you brought up Sarah's case earlier. Katie would be

808
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: cheerful to hear from Albert's slash jack. Right. Yeah, and

809
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: either because she still has some sort of you know,

810
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: romance ideations, romantic ideations, or maybe there's she's thinking, okay,

811
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: well I'm on my own, but he's going to financially

812
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: support me as I have this baby or whatever else,

813
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: you know, whatever the reason she's cheerful for. But he

814
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,399
Speaker 2: is kind of checking the boxes much more so than

815
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: the young Richard Riley.

816
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a couple of things. Again, the parallels

817
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: between this and my book are kind of incredible. There

818
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: are there is a handwriting expert who analyzes the note

819
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: found in Katie's pocket, the one that has meet me

820
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: on Wednesday night at the same place in same time time,

821
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: compares it with Albert Stouts writing and says that this

822
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: is a total match. I had to hire my own

823
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: handwriting expert now to look and it was so interesting

824
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: to see the comparison between the suspect in my case

825
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: and the letters. And this was an interesting point. So

826
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: in my case, Sarah Cornell decided to copy one of

827
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: the anonymous letters and send it to her sister word

828
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: for word, and I sent it to this handwriting expert,

829
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 1: and then I gave her the letter, the actual letter

830
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: that was the anonymous letter, because Sarah kept that one,

831
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: even though he told her to burn it. She was

832
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: very smart. So she said, I don't know if I've

833
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: ever had a case where I could look at the

834
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: victim and look at the anonymous letter and it's the

835
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: exact same wording. She copied it over and to be

836
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 1: able to compare how she would have written it versus

837
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: how it was actually written. And of course it excluded Sarah.

838
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: So you know, I don't know about eighteen ninety two.

839
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: I have a lot more confidence in my twenty twenty

840
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: four handwriting expert. But you know, I mean it's kind

841
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: of the same practice. What do you think about.

842
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 2: That, you know, handwriting comparisons. You know, when there's sufficient

843
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: exemplars present in order to say this is the known

844
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,760
Speaker 2: spectrum of handwriting characteristics from this one individual. And now

845
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: you have that you know, broad set of exemplars and

846
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 2: are comparing it to let's say a letter from Jack,

847
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 2: then yes, you can start to see maybe some differences

848
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: that you don't see in the exemplars. And there's a

849
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: lot more that they can be taking a look at.

850
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 2: And of course today forensically in terms of comparing the

851
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: inks the paper, in dented writing, there's all sorts of

852
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: things that document examiners can go after. So there is

853
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: it's a comparative science, and we know that there's issues

854
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: with comparative sciences, but most certainly you know, when there

855
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 2: are significant differences, then yes they can form an opinion

856
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 2: this document contains handwriting that is different than the known

857
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 2: handwriting from the individual. Now I don't think that you

858
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: can say that person did not write this. You know,

859
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: I think that that's probably too strong of an opinion

860
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: for this type of science, even though I do think

861
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: that these experts do reach that type of conclusion. But

862
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 2: it most certainly has some validity, you know, with this

863
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: handwriting expert in eighteen ninety two. You know, I'm sure

864
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: they're not. He's not writing it with a ballpoint pen.

865
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 2: It's probably like a fountain pen, right, or pencil or sure? Okay,

866
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: you know, so I don't you know, if it's like

867
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: the fountain pen. I'm not entirely sure. Because they were

868
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 2: so artistic with their writing back in the day. You

869
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 2: know that there may be some to try to copy

870
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: somebody's cursive writing using a fountain pen to look exactly

871
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 2: like somebody else's handwriting, I bet would be extremely difficult.

872
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: Having just looked at you, I mean, it's like calligraphy, right,

873
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: It's just like wow, you know, there's an art to

874
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 2: it that's unique to the person that's writing.

875
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I hired the expert

876
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: for my book is that the defense said Sarah Cornell

877
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 1: was an expert at mimicking someone else's handwriting, So I

878
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: wanted to disprove that because it couldn't be proven word

879
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: disproven in eighteen thirty two. Sure, So the theory that

880
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: prosecutors came up with is that Albert tried to pressure

881
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 1: Katie to terminate the pregnancy, she said no, and then

882
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: he killed her, you know, obviously to cover up his infidelity,

883
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: which is a very similar thing that might have happened

884
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: with Sarah Cornell's case. So with Sarah's case, there were

885
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 1: bruises that that matron's who undressed her for her funeral,

886
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: all over her body like she had been in a fight.

887
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: That's not the case here. So it sounds like it

888
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: could have been a if this is true, a verbal

889
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: argument maybe and when then she offered a hard know

890
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: on that, then that's when he reacted with the razor.

891
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: That it's possible, you know, but however, you know, she

892
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 2: does have the battered and bruised eyes. If you think

893
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: about cutting somebody's you're let's say, overpowering this person, forcing

894
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: them down on the ground, is it possible, as hand

895
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: is around her neck, is there potentially some level of

896
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: strangulation that's occurring. You could potentially start to see, you know,

897
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: some these smaller blood vessels you know, starting to burst

898
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: as a result of that act. And I'm sure this

899
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,000
Speaker 2: pathologist wasn't very sophisticated, so could there be some bruising

900
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: from that or did this verbal argument escalate into a

901
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: physical altercation where she's actually receiving blows to the face

902
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: before her throat is cut. And that's where it's really

903
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 2: doing a much deeper dive in terms of what these

904
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 2: injuries to her eyes and the surrounding area are.

905
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: They found a pack of envelopes in Albert's house that

906
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: seemed to match the kind of envelope that Katie received

907
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: for this rendezvous. I mean, you know, I guess they

908
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: could do fiber analysis now, but it's a common envelope,

909
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: I'm assuming, so I'm not sure that's going to be

910
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: something that's relying. We do have an alibi, and I

911
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: can't wait for you to comment on this. Albi again,

912
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: very similar to the suspects alibi in my case with

913
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: Sarah Cornell. So here's the alibi. This is two years ago,

914
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: two years later. This is what he says. He says,

915
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 1: on the night of the murder, he left his house

916
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: at seven, he went to the office. He got there

917
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,840
Speaker 1: at seven twenty five. He does no real good answer

918
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: about why he got there late and why he was

919
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: working late. He boarded a horse car and hopped out

920
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: a little while later at a very specific house, where

921
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: he placed a bill under the door on behalf of

922
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: his employer. He claims that he rang the doorbell. Nobody answered,

923
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: so we don't know. There's no witnesses to say anything here.

924
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: He said he'd forgotten to pick up some laundry. He

925
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: walked a short distance to get it, and afterwards he

926
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 1: hopped on a trolley car and arrived home around eight

927
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: oh five, very specific, and then he said he was

928
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: in the house after that, So a coincidence that he

929
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 1: was at the house by eight oh five when she

930
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: was last seen at AO five by her sister walking

931
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: away with the man. This is incredibly detailed. So what

932
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: do you think about that? No, he's lying, well, yeah.

933
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: You know two years later, yeah, two years later. You know, basically,

934
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 2: he's just Any good interviewer is just going to hammer

935
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 2: him on this. Let's say he's innocent and he finds

936
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: out that this teenage girl that he had had sex

937
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: with and impregnated had been murdered. You know, most certainly

938
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: that would be any event that would kind of stick

939
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: in his memory banks after two years, but the night

940
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 2: before or you know, the night of her before her

941
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,240
Speaker 2: body's found for him to remember down to the minute

942
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: on what he is doing, and you know, the the

943
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: number of things he was doing in this very brief

944
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 2: period of time in which Katie is going to go

945
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: out and meet with this Jack, which that's what she

946
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: called him. You know that it's so obvious that he

947
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: has come up with something to try to show that

948
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: he just could not have physically been with Katie at

949
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: the time she was killed. Yeah, and in essence, he's

950
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 2: now this is like a just a beacon flashing to

951
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 2: law enforcement, going, oh, he would have no reason to

952
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: lie about this. If he's innocent, There's no way he

953
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: would remember him. I mean, the proper response would be,

954
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: are you kidding me? Two years later and you want

955
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 2: me to kind of figure out what I did that night? Yep,

956
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 2: There's just no way.

957
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: And it gets worse because he had another domestic worker

958
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 1: working that night. She testified, and she said he got

959
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: in at nine o'clock. She knows because the clock in

960
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: the study struck nine, so she knew he came in

961
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: at nine and Katie was seen with that man at

962
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: eight oh five, which is plenty of time. And I'm

963
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,479
Speaker 1: assuming investigators looked and there would be plenty of time

964
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,959
Speaker 1: for all that. So here's a conclusion. There are about

965
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: a dozen witnesses that testify, and you know, this to

966
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: me seems like a compelling case. Now, what do you

967
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 1: think the grand jury is going to say here? Based

968
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: on your you know, account of the evidence. What do

969
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: you think is there enough legally to at least have

970
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: a trial for this guy or is there enough to

971
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: convict him.

972
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 2: Well per the expected standards of today. No, you know,

973
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 2: because you take a look at what you've really have

974
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 2: is you have the letter and you have it signed Jack.

975
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: Katie goes out supposedly to meet with Jack. However, you

976
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: can't necessarily. I think you have the handwriting analysis that

977
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: says this handwriting is consistent with Alberts, but two years later,

978
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,320
Speaker 2: you have absolutely no physical evidence that they could go after.

979
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 2: They can't. First they can't, you know, prove who's the

980
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 2: father the child. Right today we could they can't prove

981
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: Albert is present at the crime scene. You know that

982
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: is there contact DNA present, things that we could potentially

983
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: look at Where is there any of his clothing that

984
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, maybe he stepped in some of this this

985
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 2: blood that was spilled. Is this razor got his you know,

986
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,280
Speaker 2: bloody fingerprints on it, or Layton Prince or his DNA

987
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: on it. You know, they have none of that.

988
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 1: Is there something under her nails that maybe they'd be

989
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: able to pull a she fight back in any way

990
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: like that? I mean, she's been punched. I don't know

991
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: if she's just going to sit there and take that.

992
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 1: Who knows.

993
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so today, you know, there's a lot

994
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 2: of things that we potentially would expect to at least pursue,

995
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 2: and some of those things would show that, yes, Albert's

996
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 2: presence at the crime scene is there. What they're working

997
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 2: with is very indirect. It's really a weak circumstantial I

998
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 2: just don't think that there's enough today in order to

999
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 2: be able to convict or for a grand jury to indict.

1000
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: But back then, I think they probably put a lot

1001
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 2: of weight on the circumstances. And I'm not arguing that

1002
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: they're wrong. I'm just going, yeah, it's a relatively speaking,

1003
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: it's a weak case. It's sort of a Oh, investigatively,

1004
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 2: this looks like the guy that I need to pursue

1005
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 2: and I need to figure out, you know, can I

1006
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: build a case against them or can I eliminate him

1007
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 2: and do somebody else become a better suspect.

1008
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think I've ever heard you use

1009
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: that phrase. Well, no, not based on the expectations of today,

1010
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 1: which does put it in perspective. You know, this seems

1011
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: like an overwhelmingly good, circumstantial case for eighteen ninety two.

1012
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: I mean, rarely do you get witnesses, is handwriting is

1013
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: They've spent some money on this case, but ultimately the

1014
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: grand jury did not want to indict somebody who could

1015
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 1: have been innocent, and so they didn't indict him. Okay,

1016
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: so this is now officially a unsolved case. No arrest

1017
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: werever made, nothing ever happened. That's it.

1018
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: I guess I am surprised because I would have thought

1019
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: that back in eighteen ninety I guess this would have

1020
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,439
Speaker 2: been eighteen ninety four, eighteen ninety five, when the grand

1021
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 2: jury was evaluating the case, that this would have been

1022
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 2: something that they would have indicted on. Now, back then,

1023
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: with the grand jury, all that is in essences is

1024
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 2: that they are saying, yes, we think that the state

1025
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: has sufficient evidence and now he would be going to trial.

1026
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: Is that kind of how things were back then? Yeah?

1027
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: Same, Okay, so he didn't even get to trial.

1028
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: Well, probably today this would be a relatively easy case

1029
00:57:59,160 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: to prove.

1030
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: Probably today he wouldn't have left behind the murder weapon,

1031
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: and he would have been looking out for CCTV, And

1032
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it would have been a different situation.

1033
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:12,959
Speaker 1: I think one thing I had thought about with Sarah

1034
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: Cornell's case is, yes, she was drawn out to this

1035
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,919
Speaker 1: desolate farm. Yes, she's found hanging from a haystack poll

1036
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 1: and there's debate about whether or not she took her

1037
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: own life or if she was murdered, and if this

1038
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: is the man who did it. But you know my

1039
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: thought was, and I think I had asked you this

1040
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 1: for the book. Even if she is drawn out to

1041
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: this farm, there's an argument, I'm not going to terminate

1042
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: the pregnancy.

1043
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 2: Go to hell.

1044
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: He could have left and somebody else could have murdered her. Still,

1045
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: there wasn't enough evidence actually saying he did it. He

1046
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: put his hands on her and did it. It could

1047
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: have been a weird circumstance. And then you've convicted. I

1048
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: don't think that's the case with Albert, and I don't

1049
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: think it was the case with Sarah Cornell. But then you're,

1050
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, trying a capital case with somebody who's potentially

1051
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: innocent stagers.

1052
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and there is depending on circumstances, but

1053
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: that is always sort of a potential defense. Is there

1054
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 2: was that window after the suspect or defendant left where

1055
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 2: somebody else could have come in and committed the crime,

1056
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 2: you know, But that that's where now it's really you're

1057
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 2: taking a look at the totality of the circumstances, you know,

1058
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 2: And with with Albert, you know, it really looks like

1059
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: he is one responsible for getting Katie pregnant. You have

1060
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: multiple witnesses. The veracity of their statements after two years

1061
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 2: is a little suspect, But you have multiple witnesses that

1062
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 2: are saying Katie was with Albert that night of the homicide.

1063
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 2: You know, he's lying about his alibi, you know what

1064
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 2: he did that night, you know. So there's there is

1065
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 2: churm about Albert for sure, you know. And it's it's

1066
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: sort of like, yeah, I think he's the one responsible.

1067
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 2: It's just it's not a strong case relatively speaking. You

1068
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 2: know to what we would expect today that would be

1069
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 2: presented to a jury.

1070
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: This is why I don't like unsolved cases. I need

1071
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: a conclusion one way or the other. I know, and

1072
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: I know that's why you love unsolved cases. That's why

1073
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: we're good partners. I can't stand it, but I yeah,

1074
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 1: I know you find them intriguing and you want to

1075
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: solve them and I just want an answer and to

1076
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: be able to write about them. And it's hard.

1077
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, different perspectives.

1078
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, next week we will have a solved under

1079
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: three lines, three underline, solved case. I'll be happy to

1080
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: present that to you. But in the meantime, I'm going

1081
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: to be thinking about Katie Dugan and her parents and

1082
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: just me and I wish she had justice here seventeen

1083
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: life in front of her seventeen. Yeah, it's always very upsetting.

1084
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: But next week will be a very very different case,

1085
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to present it to you.

1086
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, as always, I'm looking forward to it.

1087
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: Okay, see you then?

1088
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 2: All right? Sounds good.

1089
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1090
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com,

1091
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

1092
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

1093
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1094
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1095
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1096
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1097
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hart Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1098
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1099
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod.

1100
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1101
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1102
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1103
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1104
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

1105
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1106
01:01:56,200 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. Two